Ragnarok (Hack upgrade, first true Strength DPS item)

[KingEmblem]

Ragnarok
http://www.guildwars.com/images/professions/skillicons/warrior/executionersstrike.jpg
Forged in the depths of Hell, Ragnarok's metal lusts for blood. With each excruciating blow, the satanic creation's malignant energy seems to grow more and more potent. No warrior would ever dare wield such an unholy weapon under normal circumstances, but the desperate plight of Newerth demands Ragnarok's power.


-Gives 26 strength, 40 damage, 15 attack speed and has the passive Deepening Hatred.


Deepening Hatred:

Grants a 30% chance to apply Crippled to your target, slowing movement speed by 30%. In addition, grants one charge per consecutive attack on the same Hero. Each charge gives:

+5 attack speed and -5 attack speed from the enemy.
-Increases the chance to cripple by 7% in addition to decreasing movement speed by an additional 5% if Cripple activates.

Maximum of 10 charges. .75 second cooldown between applying each consecutive charge. Each charge renews the total placed, but all charges will be lost after 5 seconds of not applying a charge. Charges will be halved if you switch to a new target Hero.


Recipe:

Hack (Mighty Blade, Bolstering Armband, Hack Recipe) (2250)
http://i36.tinypic.com/2uztgue.jpg
Slayer (2400)
http://i36.tinypic.com/2v1anbs.jpg
Steamstaff (900)
http://i37.tinypic.com/5xonm1.jpg
Bolstering Armband (450)
http://i35.tinypic.com/2cieeew.jpg

6000 gold total


_________
VOTE ON CONCEPT, NOT NUMBERS. S2 will never implement something exactly as it's suggested, so don't worry about it.

Balance/justification:
Hack needs something to upgrade into, just as Slash becomes Geometer's Bane. Strength heroes still don't have a proper DPS item. It is very expensive, but it is intended to be powerful enough that it serves as a core item and obtaining it provides a huge boost to power, just as Wingbow does.

The item is relatively easy to farm into with the exception of the costly Flayer, which balances it a bit. It gives a flat 66 damage bonus and 15 attack speed. In this way, it seems like a pitiful item for 6000 gold, but it also gives a sizable chunk of HP and the attack speed steal is perfect for taking down another carry. At max, you will have +65 attack speed, and switching targets will reduce that to +40, still a sizable increase.

The item punishes other carries for fighting you, as you will gain attack speed as they lose it. By the time they realize they're going to lose, you will have placed enough charges on them to definitely cripple them, making it difficult to run. The longer they fight, or slowly try to run, the slower they get, building up to 80% and a 100% guaranteed chance to Cripple.

Heroes that will like this item:
-Hammerstorm
-Maliken
-Pestilence
-War Beast
-Pandamomium
-Predator
-Armadon
-Accursed
-Jeraziah
-Zephyr
-Madman
-Scout

Please comment if you vote, negative or positive!


Old version of Deepening Hatred:
Grants one charge per consecutive attack on the same Hero. Each charge gives:

+5 attack speed and -5 attack speed from the enemy.
-When at least 8 charges are reached, Crippled is applied with each new hit, slowing movement speed by 30%. If a hero is killed while Crippled, you will permanently steal 5 attack speed.

Maximum of 10 charges. Each charge renews the total placed, but all charges will be lost after 5 seconds of not applying a charge. Charges will be halved if you switch to a new target Hero.

[docterj208]

question, crippling cannot proc without getting the full amount of charges?

[deathdawn]

I suggest crippling to be a different effect, the charges are nice but make crippling be able to happen regardless of the number of charges.
Also I think the damage is a bit low for the components, it's a very very expensive item. Raise the damage a bit.

I like it though.

[TreeHorse]

Permanent attack speed steal seems a little excessive... typically things of that nature are reserved to hero abilities (devourer's +str from kills, silencer(dota) stealing int with his autocast & curse.

[docterj208]

yeah... both trigger on death and this is a high item cost item. however, it is agreed that 1 STR and 1 INT is not as effective as +5 attack speed

[Ragnarok17]

Heh nice item name :). I've been thinking for a while too now about whether or not Hack should have another item to be upgraded into.

[KingEmblem]

question, crippling cannot proc without getting the full amount of charges?
Well, at 8 charges it will be applied with each attack, and the maximum is 10. I sought to take away the randomness factor and make it so it's a guaranteed thing. The point is to have your opponent fight you, and then when you're winning, they find that they're now crippled and can't run properly. It emphasizes decision making and has a psychological component, which is what I think makes this item a bit unique.

The damage is only 62 because I somewhat tried to balance it around Wingbow, which only gives 60 and is also 6000 gold. 40 flat damage isn't too bad, but I want most of the damage to come from the strength, but it's hard to do that without making it too much of a tank item.

Would it be better to permanently steal 1 strength? I mean, either way, 5 attack speed isn't that much. If you've killed 15 heroes that you've managed to autoattack 8+ times in a row (if they do decide to run, if you don't hit them again in 5 seconds, the charges will expire anyway) then the game's over anyway, realistically. In a real match you'd probably get about 4-5 kills on a Crippled target if you're playing well.

[KingEmblem]

Uh, so, I guess the mod responded and added the poll. Vote away and continue commenting on the numbers/balance/whatever, please.

[Evil_Andrex]

cost barfingly too much, also permanent movespeed steal and gain is bleh

[Kintak]

Permanent theft of attack speed is a bit much.
I think it'd be better if, like Hack, it had a chance to proc, but with each successful attack that chance and the effect of cripple went up. So, say it has a 15% chance to cripple by 15% speed on the first attack, then it'd have a 20% chance to cripple by 20% on the second attack, and so on. That would live up to the "Deepening Hatred" name, make it a stronger hero killer, and take out the potentially imbalancing permanent effect.
Hell, maybe replace slayer and bolstering armband with brutalizer and have 6+ attacks proc stuns instead of slows. Or maybe that'd be too good. :D

[Blam]

I like the concept and I think it fits in well as a strength dps item, but as other people have said: remove the permanent steal and make crippled proc earlier.

[ToxicHobo]

Seems like scouts bffl

[KingEmblem]

Permanent theft of attack speed is a bit much.
I think it'd be better if, like Hack, it had a chance to proc, but with each successful attack that chance and the effect of cripple went up. So, say it has a 15% chance to cripple by 15% speed on the first attack, then it'd have a 20% chance to cripple by 20% on the second attack, and so on. That would live up to the "Deepening Hatred" name, make it a stronger hero killer, and take out the potentially imbalancing permanent effect.
Hell, maybe replace slayer and bolstering armband with brutalizer and have 6+ attacks proc stuns instead of slows. Or maybe that'd be too good. :D
I actually like your idea, although I considered that too at first. The "Deepening" was the attack speed slow, but meh, good enough. I like the Brutalizer idea, actually, but combining two recipe items is strange, but maybe if this version doesn't catch on I'll try that.

I liked the permanent steal effect, as it made it a bit more unique, but the people have spoken. New version is kinda more stable, I suppose.

[KingEmblem]

Bump. One no vote without any reason. Please say something if you vote, even if just to bump this if it's a positive vote.

[KingEmblem]

No opinions? Hate to bump, but meh.

[WonderWhite]

Like the idea of Hack being upgradable in a combo like slash is. I like the idea but builds to 100% to cripple? I suppose its worth it as it will be the most expensive item? besides maybe Rapier (sry dont know HoN equivalent name :S)

[KingEmblem]

Yes, it's a very powerful effect, but it takes 10 hits in a row to get the 100% chance. However, it's good, because such an expensive item shouldn't be chance based for its main effect, especially one that's just a slow. I really wanted something that builds up as you hit, to give it a unique effect to stand out from other items.

It's the exact same price as Wingbow (intended), and cheaper than Frostwolf's (10 charges basically gives you the same effect as this) and Doombringer.

[Killroy]

The problem with str dps items is that they are more suited for agi carries in general then str heroes itself. This one is no exception. If you get a couple of cripples in a row you will permaslow and permacripple people. Slow can go up to 80% and attack speed down by 80% while yours is up to +80%. You just need 2 lucky hits and this item is going to boost itself to max values in seconds. I would get this on chronos with elder parasite and his timelock skill. If I don't bash you then you get crippled.

Overall the concept is not bad, but I would remove the extra cripple chances to 100% cripple. That is over the top. Make it stack like 2 times to 50% chance max. Otherwise you have no chance of escaping ever. And even at 50% it will be as good as impossible.

I would also make it 25 str just to make the numbers sound better.

P.s. the hero you want to insert for sure is wildsoul.

No vote yet.

[KingEmblem]

While that is somewhat true, I mainly just want an item that is just as suitable for strength heroes, if not more than for agility heroes. Slow can do 80% with 10 hits. Attack speed only goes down 50 (Cripple doesn't reduce attack speed), it's not a percentage either. 2 lucky hits wouldn't do anything, as the slow percentage only stacks according to the charges. For example, with 7 charges you would be stealing 35 attack speed, and you would have a 79% chance to Cripple and it would slow by 65% if it does trigger.

I think you're a bit confused, because that second paragraph seems wrong. The Cripple slow doesn't stack, just the chance to apply and the movement speed debuff gets more powerful with each charge. Theoretically, you could land a base 30% slow and then never trigger it again until you have 10 charges, where it's a 100% guaranteed thing. A new Cripple proc would just be more powerful and override the last one, not stack.

The reason why this is beneficial on strength heroes is because they have the staying power to land 10 hits on a hero in a fight. An agility is screwed if they get stunned, and then they're forced to retreat, while a strength hero would fight on and get more powerful.

Also, it'd be kind of useless on Wildsoul, as he barely has any damage to begin with and his bear already has a way of keeping people down. Scout can get hits in quickly, so can Madman. Zephyr would benefit from the HP as he's a tank, but being able to slow people so you can chase and AOE rape them is useful too. Other agility heroes would benefit, but not nearly as much as those 3, and even those 3 have other items which are a lot more important to get first.

[Tupimus]

The AS and MS drain clearly isn't permanent, but lasts as long as the one wielding Ragnarok is attacking the same target. Most likely with about an about five second duration afterwards.

Could use something more imaginative than Hack's effect simply boosted, though.

[Entydig]

Interesting item, everyone has said what i wanted to say.

[KingEmblem]

The AS and MS drain clearly isn't permanent, but lasts as long as the one wielding Ragnarok is attacking the same target. Most likely with about an about five second duration afterwards.

Could use something more imaginative than Hack's effect simply boosted, though.
Yes, that's correct. I don't know how anyone would get that mixed up; I think I wrote it clearly, at least.

If you want something cleared up, just ask.

The first version of the item had a more imaginative effect, but people thought the slow was too weak/situational and the permanent attack speed theft was over the top. I boosted the slowing properties and removed the permasteal. I like both versions, but the current one is more stable. Just for reference, I added the old version to the bottom of the original post.

[Murlox]

I actually really like that item. (could be troublesome with 1.49 maliken though, aka way OP)

[GaIactic]

Is this melee only or what? If it's not, what is the % decrease on ranged?

Also, would these proc off of Panda flurry?

^_-;

[Wraithlord]

To prevent perma cripple you should have consume charges on cripple. other than that the item is bad ass

[KingEmblem]

Is this melee only or what? If it's not, what is the % decrease on ranged?

Also, would these proc off of Panda flurry?

^_-;
I don't think it'd be reduced for range? No ranged hero can really get any use out of this, anyway. Hack and Slash doesn't reduce percentage from ranged, at least.

And nah, only straight autoattacks would place charges and therefore have a chance to cripple. Just like Hack.

[KingEmblem]

So, I need 10 more votes to reach 50 and move to popular suggestions. I had 87.5%+ before, but it got bumped down by random down-votes.

If you vote no, at least explain so I can try to improve the item.

10 more positive, c'mon!

[Shadell]

Good idea, but at that stage is way OP

[HaywireNZ]

I would hope a strength dps item wouldnt reward attack speed so much. Sure attack speed helps with any dps item but this rewards ignoring other strength items in favour of more attack speed

[KingEmblem]

I would hope a strength dps item wouldnt reward attack speed so much. Sure attack speed helps with any dps item but this rewards ignoring other strength items in favour of more attack speed
A carry needs both attack speed and damage. This is the only item that provides that for strength heroes without risk (Insanitarius) and its effect is unique enough. Just "75 damage and 70 attack speed" would provide similar effects but that's incredibly bland and just as effective for agility.

A strength hero will never have as much speed as an agility, but something to compete should be viable.

It got 50 votes but now it's below 87.5%. Sigh. If this makes it to popular suggestions the judges would have to consider it anyway, so what's the harm?

[Zekkei]

too imba with scout :]

[KingEmblem]

too imba with scout :]
Ya know, this is a valid point, as it shouldn't be that powerful on burst speed agility heroes.

To compensate, I added a .75 second cooldown on applying charges. It will take 6.75 seconds to apply 10 charges, regardless of attack speed. Now Scout will only add perhaps 2 charges with his burst attack speed.

Balanced?

[GoodDayToDie]

I like it; a solid improvement to Hack that makes carrying with a Str hero slightly more viable without massively improving their survivability (which Satanic/Symbol of Rage already does).

The comments about having a Str-specific item (much the way Wingbow is Agi-specific and Sheepstick is Int-specific) lead me to wonder if it might be good to make an item that *only* makes sense on Str, probably either because its effectiveness is based on your HP or your Str attribute.

For example, an item that gives more damage based on your current HP (ironically, Ursa in DotA had this as an ability, and he was actually an Agi hero who happened to have unusually high Str). This could make Devourer, for example, more useful in late-game fights.

You could even reverse that and have an item that is more powerful based on how much health you're missing (not what %, but how many actual points) such that it basically isn't worth it on any hero with less than 2000 or so HP, and is amazing on a hero with 3000.

Back on topic though, I approve of this item's concept.

[KingEmblem]

Well, the thing is, there's NEVER going to be an item that is ONLY good on strength (unless it's locked to strength heroes only, of course). Really, there isn't any item that's only good on agility and intelligence (Wingbow isn't a terrible choice for any DPS hero if the game is that dragged on and Teethstick is always nice to have), they're just a lot more beneficial for those types of heroes. However, it's especially hard to do that with a Strength item, because HP is ALWAYS good.

I really racked my brain over how exactly to make it so it's almost only viable as a core item on strength DPS. This is the best I came up with, something that uses the strength stat and also relies on staying power to be really effective. Even your proposed item wouldn't only be good on strength, but it would surely be more effective, just as this one is.

I'm not worried that this would be a good item for any agility's 3rd or 4th major item: real games, with rare exceptions, will never go that long, so it really isn't effective on agility in practice.

[KingEmblem]

Bump..

[GGreenBass]

Whoa, whoa WHOA. Attack speed per hit? Agi heroes would LOVE this methinks, especially with the Str boost. I like the overall concept, but it concerns me.

[FiNGERS]

I like the concept, absolutely HATE the numbers.

[KingEmblem]

Whoa, whoa WHOA. Attack speed per hit? Agi heroes would LOVE this methinks, especially with the Str boost. I like the overall concept, but it concerns me.
What's the point when you can't stay in a fight long enough to really get that boost up to high numbers? And +40 damage for your first major DPS item is crap for an agility. Only a few would be able to use it well, compared to many strength heroes.

[Bouk]

I think the maximum number of charges needs to be lowered and it certainly should be an orb affect.

Please take the time to review my new hero Enzie the melee INT carry.

[Arcadeus]

love it! great idea to fix the lack of hack recipes and a clever passive too. Is there any way u can however make this a strength only item? scout or madman with this item is endgame :( but warbeast needs this as a core item to do well (imho)

[preflex]

I think it would be very tricky to balance a strength-dps item. The hp boost can make a biiiig difference. I just don't think an item like this is necessary.

[Legit473hW1n]

26 STR?! HOLY ****! That's a ****ING lot of HP boost! Concept is interesting, but I hate the numbers. Should cost atleast 7.5K... I'm not gonna vote.

[t`t`wisper]

Really overpowered weapon, theres a reason weapons arn't supposed to have mass amounts of strength, damage, slow and + attack speed. Scout and anyone with parasite benefit huge because 3-4 hits in a matter of seconds basically guaruntees a cripple.

Plus besides slayer (only 2400 gold) this item will be easy to farm for any hard carry, and because of the fact that it stems from many other items, if you want to change your mind halfway through building it you can still do that and continue on with hacknslash wingbow or basically anything.

If you really want it to be balanced add it in with icebrand, slayer, axe of malphai and a quarterstaff or something. This would make it much harder to build and require a lot more gold. Also this item is basically the anti-carry item for a carry which is a little devastating.

[ShAdOw_LaNcE]

I will vote on concept, but comment on numbers.

The stats suck. They suck hard. But the ability, that's something else. The ability is ridiculous. There is no point to your restrictive percentages and such, it would make just as much sense to say, "After 4 charges, you automatically hit them with the ability, virtually freeze them after a few seconds, and attack so fast that your damage is over 9000."

Example: It activates, I now have more attack speed, they are slower, and I have a 7% higher to hit it. 2 not activates (they have not moved far), hit again. Now they are slower, I attack faster, and have a 44% to hit. I don't get it once, get it on the second hit. Now I am even faster, they are even slower, and my chance is now 51%. I attack really fast, hit. Attack again, my chance is so high that of course I hit. Hit again, faster. They are now at 60% or so slow, I am attacking insanely fast. Etc...

If you see the point, everything stacks up to make it op. You attack faster so your damage and chance of a stack goes up. They move slower so you are able to hit them more, increasing the stack. Your F****** chance to get the debuff goes up, increasing your chance for a stack.

Here's what I suggest, change item stats to 25 str, 60 dmg, 20 att. speed

For the ability, you can keep your effects, but change it so that while it does stack, it does not refresh the existing ones. Rather, have it so 1 charge is removed every 2 seconds. The reason? If you get a charge, and then your next hit .5 seconds later you get another, and then .5 later you get another (Basically you're fairly lucky). With your increasing attack speed, you can stack all you want, because it's easy to get 1 charge in 2 seconds. It's just that currently it seems that if you get hit by this ability once you're in deep trouble, at least make it be twice within two seconds. If you're worried because the frostbrand (you will have to change this to require frostbrand) lasts longer than this, deal with it. It's a better slow, has more effects, and stacks, IT'S BETTER.

Hope that helps

[Veritas4lyfe]

Great idea, anti carry items ftw

[MADD411]

There needs to be another str item w/ added damage and speed. agi heroes have bfly.

[docterj208]

you should probably remove the armband, replace the slayer with halbred, and give a recipe cost.

That should balance it out with the removed strength, lowered cost, and lowered overall stats.