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View Full Version : For all the people saying "I''m 1800 but my team sucks so I'm Only 1500""



Dr0pThemGs
06-15-2011, 12:52 PM
Im just really tierd of people b!tching about bad teams and that they are below their actuall MMR Level. Here is the deal


In one MM game 10 players get in one game trying to make it 50% chance for both team to win based on everyones MMR.

Let's say 10 Players with 1500 (just 2 make it easy) Joins one of them being you ofc


50% 50% ( 65%)
1500 vs 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500 <-- You (Acording 2 you, you are above you rating so say you are really 1700 MMR, then your team maby have around 65% chance of winning. so Then you should be climbing to your level. and when you are 1700 that 65% should have climbed down 2 a 50% cause all the players are 1700)


One more thing. alot of players says that "we lost cause of this one guy, he was so super bad...oh man, I allways end up with that one Noob" well to all of you. the chance was just as big that the other team got him. so Let's say that it is 50% to get a super noob whos real rating is 500 MMR. Then you should still be climbing towards 1700 MMR cause % speaking you should win all the games that "noob" is on the other team :)

Well this might not all be facts and i might be all wrong. this is just my opinion om the MM system and all of the players whining about it.

soz for the bad english, :3

Mr_Rogers
06-15-2011, 01:11 PM
While the math may be true if you take the number of games played to a high number but the average player has only a few hundred games played at most. With those small numbers the math can be skewed. Just like everyone else I think I am a little better then what I really am but I am also objective enough to know that it is mostly my fault I am where I am. Now a game where one of our players is just bad if you are skilled enough you can make up for that, what is frustrating and adds to the lack of mmr gain are people purposfully throwing games. It always starts with one person playing exceptionally badly or not buying a monkey as the only support ect and then people start raging and then attacked player usually says something about lol its only a game I dont care if i lose and then 5 minutes later its suiciding into the enemy or afk in the pool. These are the kind of games that are almost impossible to win even if you are more skilled then the mmr you are playing at.

Isoleucine
06-15-2011, 01:58 PM
^ the above is an anecdote with no real significance to the problem. Yes it happens, but it happens to everyone not just you. In fact, one could argue that part of skill is being a good team player and even if your support refuse to buy wards and want to get hellflower/shrunken or w/e you'll pick up the slack and buy wards cause having wards and 5 people playing is better than no wards and one person not caring at all.

Does mmr start at 1500 still? if so, this is probably the biggest problem. If mmr started at 1000 the variance in skill level between players would be a lot lower at the 1500 level and only really terrible players would be stuck around 1000.

With starting at 1500 the difference between a 1490 on his way up from 1100 after learning the game well and a 1490 who just started and lost his first game is pretty huge. Larger skill gaps between players = larger variance in games = larger sample size needed to approach your "real" mmr. If your real mmr is only 1600 then it isn't inconceivable to play 100 games and be at 1500 still if variance is that high.

PrestonLee
06-15-2011, 02:03 PM
i lol'ed, theoretical statistics and what actually happens to you doesn't really correlate.

summary of thread:
i think this theoretical maths supposedly prove people suckwhile I agree that people who are in their MMR bracket deserve to be in it, the math is really all wrong, and you left out A LOT of factors.

there are a lot of reasons why people are in their bracket, what heroes/role they tend to play and also how well they play their role, how flexible they are in communicating with their team, how prone they are to raging/griefing, and also how prone they are to just giving up.


if you're stuck in a lower bracket MMR, the real reason is it's probably because you don't know how to carry yourself higher. this applies all the way up to the 1700's because honestly it's really easy to carry yourself when 9 people in the game are worse players than you are. if you don't agree with this, you're probably picking the wrong heroes. don't pick full supports and cry when your carry couldn't carry you; don't pick hard carries and then cry when the full support didn't do his job. lower MMR brackets is ALL about being flexible and adapting to whatever bad situation you're thrown in. it doesn't matter if your team picked scout+BH+fayde+magebane, contrary to popular belief, the proper way to deal with it ISN'T to pick a full support and inevitably lose trying to support your failboat carries with wards. what you do is you pick a ranged semicarry like :wret: :tort: :pyro: :bubb: :valk:, outplay the other team and give your failboat team the momentum they need to win the game.

tl;dr - pick semicarries, carry yourself out of the bracket you believe you don't belong in. if you can't do this then it's your own fault and you honestly belong in your bracket because like 90% of the players sub-1700 are just a sea of REALLY bad players. learn to play different heroes/roles; in other words, get better.

the problem with ~1750+ is you'll start encountering friends who team-queue who actually have a clue about teamwork, and if you're solo queuing it can really turn into a luck of the draw which team you get thrown in. if you get thrown in the team with 4 bads (or 3 baddies and 1 decent player etc.) instead of the better team with great team work, that's just bad luck; it's honestly a 50/50 and you can get unlucky and be thrown into the bad team over and over again, causing your MMR to drop. Soooo when you get into higher MMR brackets, if you want to get higher you should probably find some good friends and play with them and establish some good teamwork skills.

Mr_Rogers
06-15-2011, 02:15 PM
Teamwork? In my Hon? GTFO!

Biggest tip I can give for getting out of the basement, is be AGRESSIVE. 1700 and below people do nothing but farm and take their sweet time, I have lost so many games where we had the upper hand all game yet because we would fall back and farm or kill kongor after getting a genocide instead of taking a rax we let that sandwraith get 60 minutes to farm and then wipe the floor with his 30k in items. Take the mid lane and push push push, harass your teammates always to be pushing forward, that doesn't always mean actually pushing a tower but just being the agressor, being pro active. Start the team fights, hunt the enemy in their jungle instead of warding yours and waiting for them to come looking for your. Steal their ancient and hard camp spawns, place wards on their side of the map and setup ganks. Most of the time it is not about what heroes you have, even if you get totally out picked if you can play smart enough and agressive enough you can usually get a concede if you can demoralize the other team.

Quantrill
06-15-2011, 03:21 PM
nerds

Dr0pThemGs
06-15-2011, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the input! really good stuff you said. I noticed tho that You talk alot about "how to climb brackets" And that's not what I mean with this thread, don't get me wrong all you said is true and I agree too a 100%. The best way Imo to "make sure not to lose" is to go somekind of agressive semicarry. Like :silh::doct::wret:... That can do some nice damage early on and setup ganks to help out the lanes that are having a hardtime. And stay posetive all game! One theory I have is that the team with whine and pissed of pepps in the chat allways tend to lose...like thoose games when 2 players start fighting over who should mid or who should get the courier and so on, Even if you know how the Best lanes whould be countering the prob lanes of the enemy team and so on, it is not worth taking a fight in chat about it. and if someone die by and obvius gank, Instead of Typing in caps in all chat, try being constructive like "oh, Im gonn get som wards so that rampage can't charge us without us konwing" Or instead of yelling @ him, get TP and be ready to save him. I can talk about this all day, Cause its just gameplay^^ and I love HoN ... so.

But this thread is about You are on your MMr rating cause of a reason, if you are 1700, but are stuck @ 1500.. you'll get to 1700 if that truly is you MMR level. We can type 100 pages about tactics on climbing from Brackets... but in the end it comes down to the players skill, and when I say skill I mean the player Knows what to pick and what is needed for the team and so on, My point is if everyone on 1500 belong there and u dont you have a higher % of winning therefor you should win more then u lose, Ofc maby not even a singel game play out as you hope! My last game 2 players picked chronos and NH, then the third guy picked MQ and our last guy tipped it up with a armadon. and I was like hm...thinking this is a really shitty lineup. I picked polly and warded My as off and said to team, OK now we got this lineup, it is **** but it is what it is so lets try to win with it... And the other team was crying in All chat like "Omg this Witch wont buy courier...blabla" guess wich team won? :) And Im not saying PICK SUPPORT AND YOU WILL CLIMB!!!! Im saying pick a good lineup and you eliminate the chances of the game being lost @ minuite 1. and If u get a bad lineup...play it as good as u can.

Wyzyl
06-15-2011, 04:15 PM
I started playing about 2 weeks ago. My mmr hasn't really dropped much and that's disappointing because they expect me to actually know anything about items or how to play more than 5 heroes. The people that play HoN are total douchebags. 2/3 of the people who chat or take the game seriously have extreme emotional and anger problems. If I'm the worst player on the team I don't see the justice in some chairjockey calling me a noob until my game experience is ruined. Logically I should stop feeding and let them take over which I've learned to do, but not being the carry still gets me hassled. I'd like 'immaturity and rudeness' to be added to the report feature. I've been reported for griefing when I am honestly just that bad.

tl;dr don't call a newbie a noob if you've been playing LITERALLY 2 years longer than he has. And hug your mom more, it might help.

tl;dr2 HoN players are terrible people and the developers should add an option to block chat until they fix that issue cause these goblin/people ruin the game for anyone trying to learn it

dchoi
06-15-2011, 04:26 PM
Except a 1500 could actually be 1200, thus skewing your chances.

Also, what say you about people who disconnect?

dchoi
06-15-2011, 04:27 PM
Except a 1500 could actually be 1200, thus skewing your chances.

Also, what say you about people who disconnect?

melonface
06-15-2011, 04:37 PM
your logic, although seemingly reasonable, is flawed.

because in the 1600 bracket games aren't won by the cumulated "skill" of the individuals. they are won by random. absolute ****ing randomness.

players decision making is such utter garbage, that everything is possible.

5 carry lineup win? 60 minute epic comeback? perfection initiation and followup this time, complete **** next time resulting in rax going down? overconfidence due to kill lead resulting in continuos feeding if the "losing team" turning the tides?

you imagine it, the 1600 bracket provides it.

it really is like that. 1500 isnt even that bad, u can carry those guys and they have a good attitude (they know they suck hard), try doing that in the 1600 bracket. everyone thinks he is the best player in the world when he sucks massive giant ****. its such ****, but the individuals are skilled enough not to get outplayed 100% of the time by a 1750 player. besides in the 1600 bracket if people notice one specific player dominating his lane or picking up very good farm, they will throw 5 man ganks at him 24/7. and you would think the 4 people not getting ganked could push towers or pick up farm themselves meanwhile. think again. they do ****ing nothing in the meantime.

**** this **** bracket and **** this **** mmr system for not working at all.
**** being stuck playing with nubs your entire life.

Facebook
06-15-2011, 04:46 PM
your logic, although seemingly reasonable, is flawed.

because in the 1600 bracket games aren't won by the cumulated "skill" of the individuals. they are won by random. absolute ****ing randomness.

players decision making is such utter garbage, that everything is possible.

5 carry lineup win? 60 minute epic comeback? perfection initiation and followup this time, complete **** next time resulting in rax going down? overconfidence due to kill lead resulting in continuos feeding if the "losing team" turning the tides?

you imagine it, the 1600 bracket provides it.

it really is like that. 1500 isnt even that bad, u can carry those guys and they have a good attitude (they know they suck hard), try doing that in the 1600 bracket. everyone thinks he is the best player in the world when he sucks massive giant ****. its such ****, but the individuals are skilled enough not to get outplayed 100% of the time by a 1750 player. besides in the 1600 bracket if people notice one specific player dominating his lane or picking up very good farm, they will throw 5 man ganks at him 24/7. and you would think the 4 people not getting ganked could push towers or pick up farm themselves meanwhile. think again. they do ****ing nothing in the meantime.

**** this **** bracket and **** this **** mmr system for not working at all.
**** being stuck playing with nubs your entire life.

Reality check, you're as bad as all the kids you keep talking about in the 1500/1600 bracket...how long is it going to take until realize this? Keep denying it but as long as you continue to be stuck in the 1500-1600 the only people who are laughing it up are those who understand that it is extremely unlikely for good players to be stuck in bad brackets for a long period of time.

I don't understand how many more threads do you need to get ripped apart in before you take your head out of whatever dream world you lve in and stop blaming everyone else for your 49% win rate with over 1,000 games played...

PrestonLee
06-15-2011, 04:48 PM
Teamwork? In my Hon? GTFO!

Biggest tip I can give for getting out of the basement, is be AGRESSIVE. 1700 and below people do nothing but farm and take their sweet time, I have lost so many games where we had the upper hand all game yet because we would fall back and farm or kill kongor after getting a genocide instead of taking a rax we let that sandwraith get 60 minutes to farm and then wipe the floor with his 30k in items. Take the mid lane and push push push, harass your teammates always to be pushing forward, that doesn't always mean actually pushing a tower but just being the agressor, being pro active. Start the team fights, hunt the enemy in their jungle instead of warding yours and waiting for them to come looking for your. Steal their ancient and hard camp spawns, place wards on their side of the map and setup ganks. Most of the time it is not about what heroes you have, even if you get totally out picked if you can play smart enough and agressive enough you can usually get a concede if you can demoralize the other team.QFT, pick pusher, push tower, place offensive wards. watch your noobtard allies magically grow balls and their e-peen pop a massive boner and enjoy your free landslide win, complete with other team raging in all chat.

:ophe: and :tort: in particular excel at this, two of my favorite heroes :p

melonface
06-15-2011, 05:00 PM
Reality check, you're as bad as all the kids you keep talking about in the 1500/1600 bracket...how long is it going to take until realize this? Keep denying it but as long as you continue to be stuck in the 1500-1600 the only people who are laughing it up are those who understand that it is extremely unlikely for good players to be stuck in bad brackets for a long period of time.

I don't understand how many more threads do you need to get ripped apart in before you take your head out of whatever dream world you lve in and stop blaming everyone else for your 49% win rate with over 1,000 games played...

you are wrong. im sorry. :( have a nice day regardless

PhatBengt
06-15-2011, 05:12 PM
Im +1600, and with some focus and strategic play I would gain ranks quickly. But you should not be forced to pick heroes that single-handed can win games, ALL the time. This is boring.

This ranking system is broken imo. Matchmaking really need a better way to initially rank players:
Maybe some placement games together with a quiz. Your skill-rating is calculated, after what kind of heroes you played, win/lose etc. Then your general knowledge is tested by answering a few basic questions.

I have a question - How many people actually get banned or suspended?

Wyzyl
06-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Im +1600, and with some focus and strategic play I would gain ranks quickly. But you should not be forced to pick heroes that single-handed can win games, ALL the time. This is boring.

This ranking system is broken imo. Matchmaking really need a better way to initially rank players:
Maybe some placement games together with a quiz. Your skill-rating is calculated, after what kind of heroes you played, win/lose etc. Then your general knowledge is tested by answering a few basic questions.

I have a question - How many people actually get banned or suspended?
So someone who reads the forums does better than someone who plays the game.
intredasting

Facebook
06-15-2011, 05:26 PM
you are wrong. im sorry. :( have a nice day regardless

At the end of the day you'll keep telling yourself that I'm wrong, yet you'll continue to be stuck playing in the bracket you hate so much...I'm feeling sorry for you already =(

Valtieri
06-15-2011, 05:27 PM
I'll typically climb up to 1650 or so through the week, then get smashed, play drunk, and tank my rating to the 1500s on the weekend. It's a cycle that I thoroughly enjoy. =D

Farosarg
06-15-2011, 05:41 PM
tl;dr2 HoN players are terrible people and the developers should add an option to block chat until they fix that issue cause these goblin/people ruin the game for anyone trying to learn it

/ic long enough to ignore all from both teams.

Gipp
06-15-2011, 06:49 PM
trying to prove stuff like this with math is useless.

lets just agree that while yes fluke games happen. they dont happen enough to keep you in a bracket

Kudryavka
06-15-2011, 07:27 PM
This is true for the 1500 bracket, no doubt, but I've found it's a lot harder for the support players to climb in MMR without a team. I soloed to 1800 PSR playing nothing but support before MM came out (well, back when it existed but no one used it), since I could join higher rated games and support for similarly good players. In MM, once you hit 1700, you're blue/pink in 90% of your games, so you win more than you lose by supporting, since having your best player on support is a very bad strategy. Being forced to carry 1500/1600 players makes it nigh impossible to get above 1750ish MMR unless you're willing to play the typical semi-carry mid stomping heroes (which I can do, but it just forces me solo mid and carry my team even harder after every game).

xHomicide
06-15-2011, 08:03 PM
cool

Jenny
06-15-2011, 08:30 PM
First of all let me say that the current system is probably among the better you can make. It's not perfect or ideal ( it cannot be ), but there really aren't all that many good alternatives.

That said there are some issues that will keep occuring, and will probably be very difficult to address without causing new problems:

a) Presently teams of players get matched against solos. This skews the mm system against those who solo. One way to solve this would be to ensure that the system only matches teams against other teams, but that would greatly increase queuing times for all players.

b) Any rating system will unfortunately encourage playing only the heroes that are a bit overpowered or otherwise unbalanced, and thus penalizes players whose play-style is different from whichever hero is the flavor of the month. This can't really be fixed aside from trying to balance the heroes better.

c) The game is very dependent on low latency, and thus penalizes people with poorer internet connections. This obviously cannot be fixed without completely changing the game concept.

SzpT
06-15-2011, 08:36 PM
I think that generally after playing enough games you reach your actual mmr, or at least pretty close to it. I know some people complain about "mmr hell" and bad teammates and stuff, but in general if you're a better player than your mmr implies you should be winning more games than you are losing and eventually your mmr should even out. As a side note if you rage nonstop at your teammates all the time that usually serves to lower your mmr by a bit.

Also this whole thing about putting support on hold and semicarrying/carrying your way out of the low brackets doesn't actually work unless you have some kind of clue what you're doing or you're 100~200 mmr below your actual bracket. Honestly, supporting well works fine in any bracket, the only difference is in lower brackets you can afford to be much more aggressive. If you keep wards up and keep your team updated (cd headed bot b pred and sb), your team should have a massive advantage, especially since in lower level games generally warders are as bad at warding as their carries are at farming. In all of my solo mm games, I've probably won 70-80% of my games playing support <1750. I mean you can have a 95-100% winrate with a solo mid semicarry if you're far below your actual mmr or a solid solo mid player, but that doesn't mean you should pick one if you generally play hard support or something.

And honestly, (obviously depending on the hero but in general) hard support is easier to play than a solo mid semicarry. The only time you actually have to do anything is in laning, after that you just ward, stack the jungle, and chill (lol) behind your hard carry. In teamfights, all you have to do is sit in the back and spam 2 spells. More or less same thing for plague/myrm/slither. I mean there's a bit more to the heroes than that, but compared to playing a good hag or soulstealer it's much easier.

This probably isn't going to change anything, but it really bothers me when people say "oh just pick a solo mid and stomp it and carry yourself up." I've played games in lower brackets with friends, and every now and then we'll get some 1600/1700 player that picks soulstealer solo mid then complains about his team when he get absolutely demolished by the opposing 1700/1800 <insert hero>.

The mindset, too, is incredibly frustrating. This is rare, but about a month ago on my smurf I played with a blue 1650 player who randomed pesti, called mid, then proceeded to get anally probed by their cd. By midgame he'd be getting caught out by himself over and over (farming near the river with no first tower up, etc), and blaming the nearest teammate for not helping him. Luckily we had a tempest, who stomps the lower brackets, but the pesti feeding nonstop certainly wasn't helping. This guy was 1650 after a couple hundred games (with ~50% winrate and <100ck and ~1 kdr playing all carries/semicarries) and yet he was still complained about him teammates and how he was better than everyone else in the game. I tried talking to him, too, but it was like talking to a rock (an angry rock lol).

This is kind of unrelated, and I know "oh man stats don't matter," but honestly by glancing at someone's stats I can tell you with 80% certainty why they are stuck in their bracket.
Biggest ones: dying too much (deaths/min high, especially as support), farming too little (ck/min low, as carries), not doing anything (k+a/min low, as everything)
Other big ones are bad positioning and mechanics, but that generally leads to at least one of the three above

tl;dr: you're probably not much better than your mmr suggests. you can't improve your teammates but you can improve yourself

RickJamesB_
06-15-2011, 08:39 PM
No here is the real problem with i should be 1800 whore. What make ur MMR average is ur knowledge of the game AND ur EXECUTION! After that, sometime u will have good teammates, something bads, sometime u get outpick etc.

According to my knowlegde of the game I should be 1800 myself, but my execution is crap! So im a lil 1600-1650. I often get out Creepkilled in a lane, i failed my queue execution, etc. But I know almost every mechanic of every hero and a lot of other stuff.

So a lot of people listen to HONCAST, learn a lot, and play like pro...but ur execution will never be like theirs. U will never get that clutchy arrow or juke like em.

Im pretty sure that If I had the best hero agaisnt let's says Bombadier Notail mid, he would be kicking my ass straight.

Then again, If i was to compete agaisnt a 1300-1400 player in the same situation a would kick his ass even if he understand the game well.

TL;DR = To be 1800 u have to be good at knowing the game and EXECUTING, else ur a 1600 scrumbag like me.

SzpT
06-15-2011, 08:42 PM
a) Presently teams of players get matched against solos. This skews the mm system against those who solo. One way to solve this would be to ensure that the system only matches teams against other teams, but that would greatly increase queuing times for all players.

b) Any rating system will unfortunately encourage playing only the heroes that are a bit overpowered or otherwise unbalanced, and thus penalizes players whose play-style is different from whichever hero is the flavor of the month. This can't really be fixed aside from trying to balance the heroes better.

c) The game is very dependent on low latency, and thus penalizes people with poorer internet connections. This obviously cannot be fixed without completely changing the game concept.
I think the system generally tried to match teams against teams and solos against solos (though sometimes you get things like 4+1 v 3+1+1 or something)

I think the fotm really depends too, generally the people that try to pick the most OP hero all the time are not very good at said hero. The most obviously example is silhouette, but it was rare to meet a silo that actually had a clue what she was doing.

I`Frog
06-15-2011, 08:50 PM
tl;dr

the whole ****ing thread.

And there are underrated players.

Jenny
06-15-2011, 08:51 PM
I think the system generally tried to match teams against teams and solos against solos (though sometimes you get things like 4+1 v 3+1+1 or something)

It tries to do that, but doesn't always. It happens that you enter a game against an entire clan with nobody on your team bothering to cooperate at all. Of course if I'm wrong about that then the corollary applies. Queuing times could be shorter if the game didn't bother matching teams against other teams.

Now what I'd really like to see is for the ranking system to take into consideration the amount of profanity in the chat. There are some "good" players that I really would not want on my team simply because of how horribly tragic they are at interacting with other humans.

colondee
06-15-2011, 08:52 PM
You are completely wrong. The only thing that depends is who the people play with regularly and who they play with momentarily. Screws the whole thing up A LOT. Think!

Ggrofl
06-15-2011, 09:10 PM
get a team.

Rahkonia
06-15-2011, 09:26 PM
your math is good, your logic on the other hand...

Facebook
06-15-2011, 11:49 PM
Don't see why people keep making these redundant threads when anyone who actually understands the system knows that people who get stuck in brackets for a long period of time majority of the time belong there...it's as simple as that so stop making excuses and just keep all your whining to yourself because frankly no-one gives a **** if you can't carry yourself of the 1500 **** bracket...

PrestonLee
06-16-2011, 12:34 AM
I just carried myself out of the 1600's from 1670-1710 yesterday to today; didn't take much effort. Just sayin. :p

Decency
06-16-2011, 12:45 AM
Hey there, I'm 1800.

Here's my solo-queued smurf during free week: http://hon.rychlis.cz/Pegged/

Ragers, feeders, people throwing the game that had to be kicked, BR's demanding solo mid over a Hag and failing, even other smurfs who were way underrated. If you're a good player, you make your own luck.

Creostar
06-16-2011, 12:57 AM
Im just really tierd of people b!tching about bad teams and that they are below their actuall MMR Level. Here is the deal


In one MM game 10 players get in one game trying to make it 50% chance for both team to win based on everyones MMR.

Let's say 10 Players with 1500 (just 2 make it easy) Joins one of them being you ofc


50% 50% ( 65%)
1500 vs 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500 <-- You (Acording 2 you, you are above you rating so say you are really 1700 MMR, then your team maby have around 65% chance of winning. so Then you should be climbing to your level. and when you are 1700 that 65% should have climbed down 2 a 50% cause all the players are 1700)


One more thing. alot of players says that "we lost cause of this one guy, he was so super bad...oh man, I allways end up with that one Noob" well to all of you. the chance was just as big that the other team got him. so Let's say that it is 50% to get a super noob whos real rating is 500 MMR. Then you should still be climbing towards 1700 MMR cause % speaking you should win all the games that "noob" is on the other team :)

Well this might not all be facts and i might be all wrong. this is just my opinion om the MM system and all of the players whining about it.

soz for the bad english, :3

+1 signed

XReaperX
06-16-2011, 01:33 AM
trying to prove stuff like this with math is useless.

lets just agree that while yes fluke games happen. they dont happen enough to keep you in a bracket

Lol. It depends on what you mean by fluke? If you mean one of the following doesn't happen often; feeding, no wards, trolls, griefing, DCing, no teamwork, etc etc... well then my friend you are so wrong.

I play solo MM quite often and I would say 1 out of 10 games I get teamed with 5 players that do their job and we have a good game, win or lose. The other 9 are full of some bull **** drama which inevitably tanks MMR.

When I played with a team of decent players, all similar skill levels, I sat around 1800 comfortably. now that I am solo... I struggle to stay above 1650. OP theory is complete ****.

TheHammer3
06-16-2011, 02:57 AM
What you're saying is true in theory, but not practice. I find TSR to be much more accurate for a majority of the community (not accurate at extremely high lvl of play obv) and would love to see it and MMR merged to create a more accurate system.

dreta
06-16-2011, 08:45 AM
for all the people saying "quit whining about team mates, it's ur fault u lose"

get over yourself and find something new to say, for every topic where people say their team sucks there's a topic saying it's their fault they lose and it's always walls of text

go write a guide for new players saying they need to last hit and buy wards, cuz we need more common knowledge clogging up the forums

Dr0pThemGs
06-16-2011, 08:46 AM
Reality check, you're as bad as all the kids you keep talking about in the 1500/1600 bracket...how long is it going to take until realize this? Keep denying it but as long as you continue to be stuck in the 1500-1600 the only people who are laughing it up are those who understand that it is extremely unlikely for good players to be stuck in bad brackets for a long period of time.

I don't understand how many more threads do you need to get ripped apart in before you take your head out of whatever dream world you lve in and stop blaming everyone else for your 49% win rate with over 1,000 games played...

This is my point, Let's take a Pro player tho Let's say Scandal or Semijew create a new account and only played Solo MM, Do you tink he wouldnt climb to atleast 1850 - 1950 quckliy regardless If he got noobs on his teams in the 1500 - 1600 brackets, do you really think he would be stuck in those brackets aswell, "Oh no but they are pros nomnom" Well they are really really good players, and good player climb, Ofc you can lose many matches because of your team according to all on the forums, But just make sure you never loses cause of you. Let's put it like this

Everygame there is 9 players + you spread over 2 team with 5 slots each, If there is a noob in one of these 9 players, and if you are not bad. then there is 4 slots on you team that noob can randomly get on, and 5 on there other hence you will win most of the games you play. And you can keep saying stuff like, What if there is a DC ??? same goes for that, More chance that other team get a DC since there are 5 possible DC on that team and only 4 DC on you team, cause u would never DC right? But what if there is a scout getting codex on your team that feeded and left? well it was more likely that he would get on the other team, so...IF YOU ARE REALLY BELOW YOUR RATING, YOU WILL CLIMB, Period.

HollowMask
06-16-2011, 09:34 AM
If matchmaking removed the rank system altogether you would never know how skilled your opponents were and they would never know how skilled you were, still a balanced fight.

Jooku
06-16-2011, 10:43 AM
First step to improve is to admit that you are bad player.

When you are playing solo match making games the only thing you can change is your own play. Just play the best you can and see how far it takes you; you lose some, win some, but if you are better than others in the end your rating will rise. People just don't realize how many random factors there are involved in every game, if you are slightly better than opponents you will win 55% of the matches. That means you lose 45% of the matches. It's just very basic math. You can't win every game (unless you are 1900 player playing 1300 matches).

Dr0pThemGs
06-16-2011, 11:49 AM
First step to improve is to admit that you are bad player.

When you are playing solo match making games the only thing you can change is your own play. Just play the best you can and see how far it takes you; you lose some, win some, but if you are better than others in the end your rating will rise. People just don't realize how many random factors there are involved in every game, if you are slightly better than opponents you will win 55% of the matches. That means you lose 45% of the matches. It's just very basic math. You can't win every game (unless you are 1900 player playing 1300 matches).

+1 signed

Epidemilk
06-16-2011, 04:22 PM
MMR hell discussion always ends up with some talk about the other team having a higher chance of having a full retard player than yours does (5 slots compared to 4)

But think about this. The other team also has a better chance of having a smurf..

Kudryavka
06-16-2011, 04:47 PM
MMR hell discussion always ends up with some talk about the other team having a higher chance of having a full retard player than yours does (5 slots compared to 4)

But think about this. The other team also has a better chance of having a smurf..
If there were more very good players in HoN than very bad players, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with, now would we? Only baddies are afraid to admit they're bad.

RoxxorBoxxor
06-16-2011, 04:53 PM
I am 1800, and my team usually sucks like 1500 :P

But I have posted this before: Assuming you have one baddie in the game whose team loses for sure, and assuming it isn't you. The chance for him being in your team is 4 out of 9, the chance for him being in the other team is 5 out of 9, which corresponds to a win ratio of around 56%. So if you have a win ratio of 56% or higher, stop complaining. If not, maybe you should consider that you could be the baddie sometimes.

Plus what OP said.

`win
06-16-2011, 05:09 PM
I think there is a big difference between someone who has played like 600 games and just reached 1700 and someone who has played even 200. I just hope I get people with lesser games played cause they are usually better at the same mmr brackets.

melonface
06-16-2011, 05:14 PM
lets just agree that while yes fluke games happen. they dont happen enough to keep you in a bracket

lol. unless that bracket is the 1600 bracket.

SomeWeirdSin
06-16-2011, 08:21 PM
MMR hell discussion always ends up with some talk about the other team having a higher chance of having a full retard player than yours does (5 slots compared to 4)

But think about this. The other team also has a better chance of having a smurf..

If you're an 1800 player stuck in the 1500 bracket, then you're the same as a 1800 smurfing, right? so there's a 100% chance that your team has a smurf.

Donut212
06-16-2011, 08:57 PM
stop blaming everyone else for your 49% win rate with over 1,000 games played...

Average win rate has to be 50%.

My win rate is 52% but i'm 1800+...

so win rates mean nothing... games played however is just an estimation of how much you click the ready up + que button.

Overall, unless your a smurf or playing tmm which greatly increases your chances of winning (not because the group is better but rather because the group is less liking to flame one another and loss hope, the biggest obstacle for most people) your win rate should be close to 50% when you reach your correct bracket. I don't play tmm. Solo all the way.

Zayl
06-16-2011, 09:45 PM
IMO TSR is more accurate.
not perfect but atleast much better than MMR

`win
06-16-2011, 10:33 PM
Average win rate has to be 50%.

My win rate is 52% but i'm 1800+...

so win rates mean nothing... games played however is just an estimation of how much you click the ready up + que button.

Overall, unless your a smurf or playing tmm which greatly increases your chances of winning (not because the group is better but rather because the group is less liking to flame one another and loss hope, the biggest obstacle for most people) your win rate should be close to 50% when you reach your correct bracket. I don't play tmm. Solo all the way.

Nah I think win rate means something. I mean sure you could be 1800, but it took you 1200 games to get there with a 52% win rate (not flaming btw). Then there are pros that hit 1800 with like a 75% win rate. People with above 60% win rates are just usually better you and me cause they win more often. I feel your pain about solo pubbing though lol.

scoutTier
06-16-2011, 10:45 PM
Nah I think win rate means something. I mean sure you could be 1800, but it took you 1200 games to get there with a 52% win rate (not flaming btw). Then there are pros that hit 1800 with like a 75% win rate. People with above 60% win rates are just usually better you and me cause they win more often. I feel your pain about solo pubbing though lol.

Win rate is cool but not always. I used to be about 60 percent win rate when matchmaking was first introduced and 1850. After a few months i'm still 1850(no improvement :'((((( ) and my win rate sucks.

SomeWeirdSin
06-16-2011, 11:54 PM
Win rate just shows how far you are from hitting your true MMR.

Jenny
06-17-2011, 02:34 AM
But I have posted this before: Assuming you have one baddie in the game whose team loses for sure, and assuming it isn't you. The chance for him being in your team is 4 out of 9, the chance for him being in the other team is 5 out of 9, which corresponds to a win ratio of around 56%. So if you have a win ratio of 56% or higher, stop complaining. If not, maybe you should consider that you could be the baddie sometimes.


Your logic works the same if you assume there is a "goodie" in the game carrying the team. There is a 5 to 4 chance he is your opponent.

You may find the following interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

In general it is a good idea to consider if your argument can just as well be used against your point of view, before you try to use it to support it. ;-)

SzpT
06-17-2011, 04:26 AM
but if you assume you yourself is better than the average player in your bracket then there is a 100% chance of a "goodie" on your team, no?

aPG
06-17-2011, 06:14 AM
First step to improve is to admit that you are bad player.

When you are playing solo match making games the only thing you can change is your own play. Just play the best you can and see how far it takes you; you lose some, win some, but if you are better than others in the end your rating will rise. People just don't realize how many random factors there are involved in every game, if you are slightly better than opponents you will win 55% of the matches. That means you lose 45% of the matches. It's just very basic math. You can't win every game (unless you are 1900 player playing 1300 matches).


Sry but play with me and this is complete bullsh*t

How can u win a game when just bot and top lane cant stop feeding?
I usally go mid with mid hero. I win mid i gang but game is already over cus team feeds and when i say stop feed plz they say i suck and i should buy wards with devo for example. Then GG.

yourstruly
06-17-2011, 06:36 AM
You average stats are poor. You don't win your mid lane convincingly enough.

fenroxx
06-17-2011, 07:33 AM
Sry but play with me and this is complete bullsh*t

How can u win a game when just bot and top lane cant stop feeding?
I usally go mid with mid hero. I win mid i gang but game is already over cus team feeds and when i say stop feed plz they say i suck and i should buy wards with devo for example. Then GG.


I don't believe you at all. If you have been winning mid as often, and as dominant as you say, you would have a MUCH higher mmr, and much better stats.

In fact, you have 49% win, you are actually worse than your rating.

I rofled through the 1500-1600s like nothing, and I faced some difficulties in the 1700s, I still reached 1800ish with over 60% win. (usually by going mid)



As said before, yes retard games happen, but if you calim to be a 1700, but stuck in the 1500s, you should be able to carry those retards with ease.

aPG
06-17-2011, 09:37 AM
My K/D is better then 95% of the people i meet in MM. But what you wanna do if there is a 1780 who wants solo mid and has like 0-7 stats in 10min. And you cant carry if some1 of your team dies like every minute.

Another Example. 1720 instant picked demented. He went bot lane bought no courier or wards. He has 1-12 after 17Minutes. I say stop feed. He just says im the Noob cus hes support? Then after my question why he hasnt bought a single ward yet. He just said im the noob cus my MMR so low and he will Report / Ban me. I love these people.

nom
06-17-2011, 10:12 AM
i lol'ed, theoretical statistics and what actually happens to you doesn't really correlate.

hate to be a party pooper but actually they very much DO correlate.

the fact that statistics can show real correlations is the entire reason the discipline is studied and used.

Manifesto
06-17-2011, 10:33 AM
1750 here.

I can safely say I will never, ever drop in to the 1500's and that If by some magic that I was put there, it would be no hard task to carry myself out and back to where I belong.

You're just bads who can't admit that they're bad, and thus, you'll never improve.

PrestonLee
06-17-2011, 12:31 PM
hate to be a party pooper but actually they very much DO correlate.

the fact that statistics can show real correlations is the entire reason the discipline is studied and used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
is what i was getting at, just because you have over 50% chance for something to happen, doesn't mean you will be gauranteed to go up in MMR, and there are tons of other factors left out that he neglected to mention.

all i'm saying is it's not nearly as simple as he made it out to be. peace be with you my good sir!

Luos`
06-17-2011, 01:07 PM
My K/D is better then 95% of the people i meet in MM. But what you wanna do if there is a 1780 who wants solo mid and has like 0-7 stats in 10min. And you cant carry if some1 of your team dies like every minute.

Another Example. 1720 instant picked demented. He went bot lane bought no courier or wards. He has 1-12 after 17Minutes. I say stop feed. He just says im the Noob cus hes support? Then after my question why he hasnt bought a single ward yet. He just said im the noob cus my MMR so low and he will Report / Ban me. I love these people.

And then those games where you go mid against that TB and he's complete trash and you deny every creep and kill him 5 times. You neglicted to mention that.

You win some, you lose some.

nom
06-17-2011, 05:35 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager
is what i was getting at, just because you have over 50% chance for something to happen, doesn't mean you will be gauranteed to go up in MMR, and there are tons of other factors left out that he neglected to mention.

all i'm saying is it's not nearly as simple as he made it out to be. peace be with you my good sir!

pascal's wager is a ****ing philosophical piece on the attitude towards the existence of GOD

what the hell does this have to do with HoN, or HoN strategy, or MMR?

showdown11
06-17-2011, 08:42 PM
I use to blame my teamates every game when i lost at match when my mmr was about 1400-1550, however I rapidly got better by admitting my mistakes and watching my replays of my losses. You watch that **** you'll be like, "wow I played bad" or be like " maybe if I did this we would of won". People at lower levels count on there teamates too much, then they start raging lolz.

how could someone know anything about teamwork when they avg like 0.3 wards per game? or even as a hard support they only avg 1 ward per game..Or better yet they got no map awareness, how could they play decent in team fights with no map awareness. Okay put a 1500 in a 1700 game or a 1600 in a 1800 game, they wouldn't be fooling anybody, that lower mmr would be a non factor 99% percent of the time unless they are a smurf. I suck at this game and I admit it, sometimes i just play for fun and don't try super hard to win, but only way i'll get better or play better is admitting there is a lot to improve on in my game.

showdown11
06-17-2011, 09:06 PM
your logic, although seemingly reasonable, is flawed.

because in the 1600 bracket games aren't won by the cumulated "skill" of the individuals. they are won by random. absolute ****ing randomness.

players decision making is such utter garbage, that everything is possible.

5 carry lineup win? 60 minute epic comeback? perfection initiation and followup this time, complete **** next time resulting in rax going down? overconfidence due to kill lead resulting in continuos feeding if the "losing team" turning the tides?

you imagine it, the 1600 bracket provides it.

it really is like that. 1500 isnt even that bad, u can carry those guys and they have a good attitude (they know they suck hard), try doing that in the 1600 bracket. everyone thinks he is the best player in the world when he sucks massive giant ****. its such ****, but the individuals are skilled enough not to get outplayed 100% of the time by a 1750 player. besides in the 1600 bracket if people notice one specific player dominating his lane or picking up very good farm, they will throw 5 man ganks at him 24/7. and you would think the 4 people not getting ganked could push towers or pick up farm themselves meanwhile. think again. they do ****ing nothing in the meantime.

**** this **** bracket and **** this **** mmr system for not working at all.
**** being stuck playing with nubs your entire life.

Your perception is very inaccurate, how about factor these in your losses - your hero pick, your over all teamwork, getting out played by better players, feeding off your opponents mistakes. Apparently you didn't a count for all these things.

You rage too much bro, you can't win games with that attitude it's just not going to happen. If you did that in a game 200 mmr above you, your team would just spam that concede button and mute and ignore you b/c they know it's useless having you on the team. It would just be you failing and playing the blame game till the match is over.

Lets say you bought a hon account off a 1900 player, you would just drop back down all the way to your true mmr. So to say the mmr system is not working is false.

Cranium
06-17-2011, 09:39 PM
Im just really tierd of people b!tching about bad teams and that they are below their actuall MMR Level. Here is the deal


In one MM game 10 players get in one game trying to make it 50% chance for both team to win based on everyones MMR.

Let's say 10 Players with 1500 (just 2 make it easy) Joins one of them being you ofc


50% 50% ( 65%)
1500 vs 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500
1500 1500 <-- You (Acording 2 you, you are above you rating so say you are really 1700 MMR, then your team maby have around 65% chance of winning. so Then you should be climbing to your level. and when you are 1700 that 65% should have climbed down 2 a 50% cause all the players are 1700)


One more thing. alot of players says that "we lost cause of this one guy, he was so super bad...oh man, I allways end up with that one Noob" well to all of you. the chance was just as big that the other team got him. so Let's say that it is 50% to get a super noob whos real rating is 500 MMR. Then you should still be climbing towards 1700 MMR cause % speaking you should win all the games that "noob" is on the other team :)

Well this might not all be facts and i might be all wrong. this is just my opinion om the MM system and all of the players whining about it.

soz for the bad english, :3


You forgot about solo queue vs. tmm.

PrestonLee
06-18-2011, 05:08 AM
pascal's wager is a ****ing philosophical piece on the attitude towards the existence of GOD

what the hell does this have to do with HoN, or HoN strategy, or MMR?uh, flip a coin 100 times. heads, you win; tails you lose. let me know how many times you win.

TaroEld
06-18-2011, 08:43 AM
Stomping to 1700 so hard.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/player_stats.php?aid=3432261
Yeh, I know, the account aint really 1700, but eh

nom
06-18-2011, 09:29 AM
uh, flip a coin 100 times. heads, you win; tails you lose. let me know how many times you win.

50% of the time. Point? and what does this have to do with pascal's wager?

and what does it have to do with HoN, HoN strategy, or MMR?

just speak your point please, referring to random crap on wikipedia does not make a point.

MTING
06-18-2011, 11:25 AM
MMR hell discussion always ends up with some talk about the other team having a higher chance of having a full retard player than yours does (5 slots compared to 4)

But think about this. The other team also has a better chance of having a smurf..

If you really deserved to be 1800, wouldn't you be considered a smurf in the 1500 bracket?

MTING
06-18-2011, 11:30 AM
anyways haven't there been enough posts about people stomping their way out of 1500 with smurf accounts
most of them aren't even 1700, they're 1600 but still they have 90% win rates and 3.0 kdrs

Anakha
06-18-2011, 05:39 PM
50% of the time. Point? and what does this have to do with pascal's wager?

and what does it have to do with HoN, HoN strategy, or MMR?

just speak your point please, referring to random crap on wikipedia does not make a point.

If you can't read beyond the first paragraph of said wikipedia page to see the deeper implications behind it, you probably aren't worth spelling it out to.

Funkyou
06-18-2011, 08:43 PM
nerds
thread over right here

nom
06-18-2011, 08:51 PM
If you can't read beyond the first paragraph of said wikipedia page to see the deeper implications behind it, you probably aren't worth spelling it out to.

pascal's wager is about the existence of god.

that's the whole point of it. it's specifically about philosophy regards to thinking about god's existence.

it has no statistical or mathematical relevance.

what on earth would it have to do with HoN?

i understand the wager (i studied it in school), and i know it's purpose and what it's getting it. it certainly has nothing to do with any sort of practical calculation. it's an argument for betting on the existence of, again, GOD.

maybe some people worship HoN, but i wouldnt quite call it a religion.

Jenny
06-18-2011, 10:20 PM
pascal's wager is about the existence of god.

that's the whole point of it. it's specifically about philosophy regards to thinking about god's existence.

The similarity lies in how Pascal's argument fail (i.e the problem with it).

Essentially the problem with Pascal's wager is that the same argument could just as well be used against his claim, or in order to argue in favor of beliefs that directly contradict his own. When people insist the MMR system disfavors them, because they end up playing with noobs, they fail to take into consideration that the argument works exactly the same for arguing that the system should favor them, because they may end up with somebody much more skilled than themselves.

Thus while it is true that there is a 5 to 4 probability that the enemy team has a player worse than you, there is also a 5 to 4 probability that they have a player better than yourself. So the same argument could be used to say that you ought to be winning/losing most games, because the argument is symmetrical.

So the situation is indeed very similar to Pascal's Wager in that it fails in the exact same way. Many of the arguments people here are making for why they get fewer wins than they should, could just as well be used to argue they are getting more wins than they deserve. In the same way Pascal's wager could easily be turned around by suggesting god might be penalizing those who believe, in which case the argument favors non-belief.

Coolcollo
06-18-2011, 10:54 PM
The way I feel about HoN games is that typically it takes 1 super pro pebbles to beat a team of 5 even if they have 4 bads.

Btw. My real MMR is 1730 and my real psr is 1790.

I'm just plagued that my current internet is SOMEHOW slower than dial up (it's slowly been degrading in transfer rate. Currently around 20kb/s. You feel my pain). also I disconnect 15+ times per game due to network issues.

Not QQ'ing, since I can pull my weight in an LN IH half of the time (the other half I just fail hard of course).

Too everyone that QQ's about their mmr/psr and bads, guess what. If it was true you'd be a smurf and winning your games. :scout:

Cesious
06-18-2011, 11:32 PM
One of my games awhile back went something like...

Whole team was 1680-1735, mine was 1630. Their K:D was around 0.85 average, mine is 1.67. Their ward scores were all under 0.0-1.5, mine is at 1.7. Average creeps for them was around 50-70/5, mine was around 90/20. 2 of them were friends.

Other team was all averaged MMR around 1700, 1.25+ K:D, creep scores of 70+/10+, wards average all at 1.2+.

Surprising to say, we lost. 0 wards, the whole team fed lanes even with a dual ranged/stun vs a solo melee(Who scored kills against them without a gank). End of game stats showed some of ours well under 90 APM, theirs were all 90+, mine sat around 120-140. I went something like 6-0-assists, even in my lane I scored kills without my lane mate getting an assist because he was too busy auto-attacking creeps.

It happens, there's always flukes. Somehow people get carried up. Me? I got carried down from 1735 MMR to 1550 or so when the HoN anniversary free account event came up. When the stats recording problem came, I had players on my team intentionally feeding going "MY STATS DON'T GET COUNTED ANYWAYS, EAT IT LOSERS!" until I told them they don't display but still record.

Reminds me of a game where I played against a Behe/Someone-With-A-Stun as Myrm and scored a double tap early on because Behe fissured both of them on the side with my tower. Was an easy pick off and they just kept feeding despite being relatively higher players.

Like the guy above me though, I'm plagued by a sporadic internet. It comes and goes, some games I run flawless, other games I'll /ping and be at 90 with a dc symbol and unable to control my hero. Other games I dc half a dozen or more times. The 2 dc's I have on my account now are both bad net problems that couldn't be resolved. I've avoided other dc's because of my team or the other team conceding before it happened thankfully. Other day I was dc'd so bad that I came back into a game finally at level 3 when everyone else was level 8-10. Still came back and managed to win it, just lagged out and autoattacked team battles while spamming a PBAoE.

FirstToStand
06-19-2011, 12:16 AM
your logic, although seemingly reasonable, is flawed.

because in the 1600 bracket games aren't won by the cumulated "skill" of the individuals. they are won by random. absolute ****ing randomness.

players decision making is such utter garbage, that everything is possible.

5 carry lineup win? 60 minute epic comeback? perfection initiation and followup this time, complete **** next time resulting in rax going down? overconfidence due to kill lead resulting in continuos feeding if the "losing team" turning the tides?

you imagine it, the 1600 bracket provides it.

it really is like that. 1500 isnt even that bad, u can carry those guys and they have a good attitude (they know they suck hard), try doing that in the 1600 bracket. everyone thinks he is the best player in the world when he sucks massive giant ****. its such ****, but the individuals are skilled enough not to get outplayed 100% of the time by a 1750 player. besides in the 1600 bracket if people notice one specific player dominating his lane or picking up very good farm, they will throw 5 man ganks at him 24/7. and you would think the 4 people not getting ganked could push towers or pick up farm themselves meanwhile. think again. they do ****ing nothing in the meantime.

**** this **** bracket and **** this **** mmr system for not working at all.
**** being stuck playing with nubs your entire life.

No matter what anyone says, this is the truth.

Edit: LOL at Pascal's Wager being thought of so incorrectly.

SomeWeirdSin
06-19-2011, 12:38 AM
The similarity lies in how Pascal's argument fail (i.e the problem with it).

Essentially the problem with Pascal's wager is that the same argument could just as well be used against his claim, or in order to argue in favor of beliefs that directly contradict his own. When people insist the MMR system disfavors them, because they end up playing with noobs, they fail to take into consideration that the argument works exactly the same for arguing that the system should favor them, because they may end up with somebody much more skilled than themselves.

Thus while it is true that there is a 5 to 4 probability that the enemy team has a player worse than you, there is also a 5 to 4 probability that they have a player better than yourself. So the same argument could be used to say that you ought to be winning/losing most games, because the argument is symmetrical.

So the situation is indeed very similar to Pascal's Wager in that it fails in the exact same way. Many of the arguments people here are making for why they get fewer wins than they should, could just as well be used to argue they are getting more wins than they deserve. In the same way Pascal's wager could easily be turned around by suggesting god might be penalizing those who believe, in which case the argument favors knon-belief.

you remind me of an undergrad that took 1 course in philosophy at a shitty state school

Floophead3
06-19-2011, 12:47 AM
The real problem with the mmr system and why people (and I've been the victim of this many times) get underrated is solo vs team, smurfing, and autoloss situations.

First off, if you don't team queue you're shooting yourself in the foot because you literally have to be a level above the other team if you're facing a team with 4 randoms on your side.

Next, smurfing exacerbates the problem by shifting the mmr level of any team/group down, so if you play a team with smurfs on it, you're automatically at a lower average skill level, even if you ARE a team.

Then, you get situations where you have some kid on your side who literally will not work with the team, leaves, or actively tries to lose, or really really really sucks. Sometimes you simply cannot win the resulting 4v5.

Now why is this such a problem? Well, any time you're solo queuing you run the risk of facing up against a team. The odds of 2 or more players being together on a team of 5 than a subteam of 4 are higher. Plus, if it's a 5 man, well you can't be on their team at all. Basically, you'll face more teams than play with if you solo queue.

Add on the smurfing factor. If you aren't smurfing, then the odds of a smurf on their team compared to yours are 5:4, so more times than not you're playing against a smurf.

Lastly, the more people together, the lower the chance of someone really bad ruining the game for them. If you queue with friends, you're far far less likely to hit an autoloss roll.

Basically, the only way to fix this is to queue teams with teams and solos with solos, but s2 can't do that because of the likely problems:
a) do you match 2s 3s 4s and 5s on their own system?
b) will queue times get too high?
c) smurfing

The fact is, if you're really a good player who's underrated, people will notice. Eventually you'll make some friends and you can queue with them and watch your mmr rise to where it should be. If you're not seeing your mmr rise with friends, you probably suck.

Cesious
06-19-2011, 01:33 AM
^ And this is why I suggested ages ago to have a tick on Solo MM to let us pick "No Teams" as an option. I wouldn't mind a little extra wait for a small edge of balance in my favor.

innova3
06-19-2011, 01:45 AM
Pick a classic pubstomper mid hero like :
:valk::chip::wret::bubb::pebb:,outplay them hard, and then laugh at their faces...

Coolica
06-19-2011, 09:59 AM
I was going to write something long about this but I decided that it's not worth the effort to, so I'm just going to summarize some points:

-Player skill has positive correlation to MMR.
-Hero roles also have a correlation to MMR, which gets stronger as MMR rises.

To quickly explain point 2, here are some examples:
-Carries, Semi-Carries, and Gankers played by a smurf will carry games under 1650.
-Supports played by a smurf will carry games under 1650, but to a MUCH lesser extent than Carries, Semi-Carries, and Gankers.
-As average game rating increases, effectiveness of Carries and Gankers will decrease substantially. Supports will increase slightly.
-As the average rating of games increases, the deciding factor for effectiveness of Semi-Carries will depend on the discrepancy between the skill of the player and the average rating of the game, and how well he can effectively use the versatility of semi-carry role.
-As average rating of games approaches 1850 and above, deciding factors of victory significantly change from player skill to hero picks + team synergy.

In short: Player skill + type of most commonly played hero role = Player's rise in MMR. Moreover, Player skill is a more significantly dominant variable in games with average ratings of 1650 and below, while hero roles becomes increasingly significant as average game rating rises past 1650.

*Note that the above explanation assumes that we are talking about solo queue.



That's the quick version of what I was going to say. Each point has logic behind it and if someone really can't understand why it works that way I could explain it, providing they don't for a reason like a douche.

RoxxorBoxxor
06-19-2011, 10:49 AM
Your logic works the same if you assume there is a "goodie" in the game carrying the team. There is a 5 to 4 chance he is your opponent.

You may find the following interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

In general it is a good idea to consider if your argument can just as well be used against your point of view, before you try to use it to support it. ;-)

Just remember my initial assumptions that there is a baddie in the game, and that he has the most impact on the game (by saying that his team certainly loses).

You could of course extend this to the case that there is either one 'baddie' or one 'goodie' or both in the game. But I think most people would agree that a single 'goodie' can usually not win the game singlehandedly, while a single 'baddie' can very well lose it singlehandedly. And obviously, there are many more 'baddies' than 'goodies'.

Concluding: The chances of having one baddie in the game are much higher than those of having one goodie in the game. Furthermore, if there are both, the baddie is (most likely) more deciding than the goodie, so the goodie can be neglected. This leads to my initial assumptions that there is one baddie, and that he decides the game. Thus in my framework, your thought of the 'goodie' only has minimal impact on the winning chances.

XtaZ`y
06-19-2011, 12:02 PM
If you can't get out of the 1600 or lesser brackets, your HoN basics aren't understood/applied properly, and thus there is a big chance that YOU are drawing your team back.
If you claim being 1700 or whatever stuck in a lower bracket, go play 1300. You'll see how you stomp it with your 1500.
You deserve your MMR, period.
Smurfs ? if you're stuck in an inappropriate bracket, you're a smurf as well.
Teams ? Most of them doesn't matter under 1700, they play together, yes, but the only difference will be the absence of flaming, not elaborate team cooperation.

Stop raging about other players, think how YOU could have done better, watch your own replays, read guides, and use your brain. Your MMR/PSR will rise on its own.

Jenny
06-19-2011, 08:59 PM
a single 'goodie' can usually not win the game singlehandedly, while a single 'baddie' can very well lose it singlehandedly. And obviously, there are many more 'baddies' than 'goodies'.

Even if we take that to be true, the only thing it does is to make the game more random. Everybody has to deal with this so it should not favor anybody (except maybe people who always pick hard carries since they can then feed on the baddies ).

The exception is TMM since if you got a team of 5 you sometimes get matched against a team of 4 + feeder. I don't really think there's an easy way to fix that without making queing times TMM very long.

St4rkiller
06-21-2011, 09:15 AM
:thun::dead: will get you out of the 1500 - 1600 mud , true story bro

fenrixx
06-21-2011, 09:18 AM
The ranking sytem is flawed under the 1700s as new accounts starts at 1500, and 1200mmr or even a 1900mmr player can stat reset himself to 1500, thus influence the ranking system and creating an unbalance.

Saturo
06-21-2011, 09:57 AM
IMO TSR is more accurate.
not perfect but atleast much better than MMR

Tsr is not even slightly accuraded because its still heavily depended on MMR. If i would reset my stats and stomp 1500 i will easily get a 8.0+ TSR, however im my bracket this is not possible.

Also ppl using TSR always try to push up theire score by placing wards when the game is already over etc. its just a flawed system.

Wether you got a 10.0 KD or 0.1 KD doest matter at all. It matters whether you win your games or not. Thats what MMR does. Thats why MMR is good.

Vantec
06-21-2011, 12:29 PM
your forgetting there are different types of noob

noob 1: you have the noob jungler that picks a jungle hero because its the only time hell ever afford boots by the 45 minute mark, wont join team fights or help at all causing your team to lose

Noob 2: then you have the noob carry picker who feeds and is just terrible, however this player does help in team fights so is better than noob 1

noob 3: then you have the noob support player who doesnt ward, autoattacks the lanes and steals farm, this player is equal to noob 2 but still better than noob 1.



TLDR biggest noobs are jungle picker scrubs

Kingdra
06-21-2011, 01:37 PM
I started playing about 2 weeks ago. My mmr hasn't really dropped much and that's disappointing because they expect me to actually know anything about items or how to play more than 5 heroes. The people that play HoN are total douchebags. 2/3 of the people who chat or take the game seriously have extreme emotional and anger problems. If I'm the worst player on the team I don't see the justice in some chairjockey calling me a noob until my game experience is ruined. Logically I should stop feeding and let them take over which I've learned to do, but not being the carry still gets me hassled. I'd like 'immaturity and rudeness' to be added to the report feature. I've been reported for griefing when I am honestly just that bad.

tl;dr don't call a newbie a noob if you've been playing LITERALLY 2 years longer than he has. And hug your mom more, it might help.

tl;dr2 HoN players are terrible people and the developers should add an option to block chat until they fix that issue cause these goblin/people ruin the game for anyone trying to learn it

Type /ic
This stands for ignore chat. If you type it more than once you will be able to ignore chat from the enemy team, your own team, or both. Just keep typing /ic in game until you get it to the setting you want and let the positive learning experience start! =)

KlotarN
06-21-2011, 07:13 PM
In my experience from the game i have 3 tips for a player to rise in mmr..
some are your own to adjust and some are to get help.

1. Find out the role u are most good at. Not necessarily only the hero aspects, but also solo mid, roamer or hard support etc. when u master your role u will get more friends who wants to play with u. which leads us to next.
2. Friends. u may be a really good supporter. i myself is a ricer. The best i love is a dude, protecting me and providing me with the chance to get as much farm as possibly. u develop a teamplay on lane which is highly underrated in laneing phase.
3. Picks. many heroes are good in theory, but the best thing is to get a team that synergises with each other. try to always get atleast one great initiator. its also a good tip to pick a certain kind of lineup, fitting the carry/carries u chose to go with. AOE wins teambattles.
4. this is a general perspective of intelligens. if u end up with a baddie. the best thing u can do is motivate him. give him tips without orders. ask nicely and tell him he is doing great even tho he might just be doing what is standard. anyhow he will do his best and your chances of makeing some kind of teamwork happen which is the key to get really high tier.

Dont do drugs! :pupp:

Ekamo
06-22-2011, 01:01 PM
I can with ease get 80 % win on a smurfacc all my way up to 1650. Actually did it twice. Then I have 70 % when I reach 1750.

Point proved,

If you can stomp lower people, you will.

Papilla
06-23-2011, 06:45 AM
Its simple, just always listen to higher ranked players all the time. They have higher MMR for a reason.

Theburned
06-23-2011, 07:24 AM
meh I am 1800, but everyone on my team suck, so we lose....
half of the time.... lol

GRAGTHUL
06-23-2011, 10:08 AM
im rly like 1900 but always big noob team

Alterior
06-23-2011, 08:04 PM
I'm currently 1400, I often take risks that are too big, I don't farm or stay in experience range properly, I sometimes choose to farm instead of positioning properly for a potential kill/assist, I am aggressive in retarded ways and I get impatient waiting to go kill the enemy during those moments of *wander around as 5 aimlessly.*

I have apologized for 1 of my 2 quad kills in NM, simply because I got them on the back of my team's poor initiation.
The other one I was playing doombringer swiftblade and the enemy fed themselves to me one at a time. It was lols.

I have never made annihilation happen.

I am where I am as a direct result of my **** play. :D
I am getting better at my bad teamplay, my mmr is rising.
Between June 9 and the reset I climbed from 1300 to ~1550, I wasn't done climbing yet.
In my humble noob bad awful at this game opinion, mmr works well.

wikkedwhite
06-23-2011, 08:08 PM
I'm 1700 but team is 1400, true story.

Alterior
06-23-2011, 08:28 PM
^ :D you over estimate 1400s.

Yin`
06-25-2011, 09:34 AM
You should be where you're at. Whether it takes 100 or 300 games, eventually you should hit equilibrium.

The highest I've been at is mid 1700's. Which I think is fairly accurate. I feel that to climb higher I'd need good team mates and better team synergy. Or maybe I'm just bad and if I was better, I could solo stomp my way to 1800 MMR? I dunno. I'm not very good of a player.

But I have hit 1700 MMR over and over again. I've stat reset a few times since I bought this account. So it is not "impossible." Hell, I even play with my horrible 700 MMR (yes, 700 MMR) friends and sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But over time my MMR hits equilibrium in the low/mid 1700 spectrum, of my own doing.

Oh, and protip. DO NOT EXPECT ANYTHING from your teammates. You can ask nicely in the beginning of a game like "hey, support player X, mind buying courier/wards?" Usually I don't even ask for wards because half the time they'll end up saying "**** off faggot" or some other angry retort for no reason. Most of the time we'll get a courier and I'm already thankful for that. If not, no biggie, don't ragequit, just play the game and try to solo stomp with your mid semi-carry.

Learn to prepare for the worst-case scenario. If it's a team of you+4 retards vs. 5 retards, BUY YOUR OWN COURIER/WARDS/FLYING COURIER. If you start wrecking the enemy team yourself, give your team a kill advantage, usually your team mates (despite any bad attitudes) will have a bit more faith in you. Maybe they'll even start to ward/homecoming stone for counterganks!!!! Be proactive, don't "DEMAND" things. People respond very badly to that. Usually after 2-3 wards as Soulstealer, if nobody else is buying I usually make a very stern "come on team, I've bought all the wards so far, can I get some help? I helped set up ganks, give us kills, etc etc." USUALLY (sometimes not, but expect this too) at least one person will respond positively. Sometimes that ONE person is all you need to give your team an even bigger advantage.

Anyway I've said my piece and this is only from my personal experience so it's not the gospel of truth or any such thing. But I hope it helps some people.

Sync
06-25-2011, 10:58 AM
Be proactive, don't "DEMAND" things. People respond very badly to that.

Very very true.

I'm by no means an excellent player. I'm decent, but that's pretty much it. I spent something like half a year fluctuating between 1650-1700 and consistently thinking OMGBADTEAM instead of manning up and asking myself what I could have done to advance my play and tip the scales in our favor. I managed to hop to the 1750s within a week of admitting my mistakes and then played with pals of mine leagues better than me to get to where I am now.

I picked up a smurf account during the $10 sale and it's sitting at 1750 with a ~70% win ratio. I don't even tryhard on that account, I do stupid things like pick El Guantelete and pretend that I'm Korok and whatnot, yet I still manage to climb to my normal-ish MMR with ease.

The system, given enough time, works. People who are angry at the system or feel 'cheated' should lessqqmorepewpew. :devo:

Yin`
06-25-2011, 04:25 PM
I basically play with the expectation that EVERYONE on my team is bad. Including me. The most important thing to do is learning to buy your own damn wards/courier/etc and COVER YOUR OWN ASS. Don't expect team support if you're about to do something crazy or expect teleporting counterganks the second three people towerdive you.

Again, BE PROACTIVE. I cannot stress this enough.

Farosarg
06-25-2011, 05:26 PM
Just an offtopic note there, if you are used to playing with friends whom with you can coordinate easily and are used of them covering your ass, playing public games is really really hard if you can't adjust your own playing style accordingly.

I took a huge dive, spamqueueing solo matchmaking because of this reason. And I'm glad that I did so, I learned a lot about my own playing and on how to compensate a sub-skilled team and can now go do both teamgames and solo matchmaking without much trouble.

endra
06-25-2011, 11:14 PM
I basically play with the expectation that EVERYONE on my team is bad. Including me. The most important thing to do is learning to buy your own damn wards/courier/etc and COVER YOUR OWN ASS. Don't expect team support if you're about to do something crazy or expect teleporting counterganks the second three people towerdive you.

Again, BE PROACTIVE. I cannot stress this enough.

so very true, hope for the best but prepare for the worst

i am a support playa unless im the top 2 mmr player in the team, i do **** nobody else wants to do and that win me the game