The first "mana-less" hero is Amun-ra!

[Asrial]

Just an observation from your hero preview.

All his spells cost percentage-based HP, right?
During the preview, he casts his combo several times, and is always at full mana. Even his ultimate doesn't use any mana, it just requires it to be there!
I'm not sure on the balancing here, but for me right now, it appears that Amun-ra is going to be a near-invincible hero, thanks to his ulti. Else it must have an immense cooldown. Think Tempest here!

And his passive is pressure-activated, right?
Does it work like Armadons ulti works, or is it self-refreshing in duration and then it all deteriorates over an x second lifespan? That would make huge differences actually if it was like Armadon.

So he got two counters; mana combustion and slow hp removal followed up by an immense damage spike.
Heroes that counters him: :soulr::slit::sand::tort::mage::engi::zeph::pebb:: witc::vind::dead:
Those are the heroes that I've found to be either pure gib, accelerated damage output... or mana removers. Because you either have to screw him over 3 seconds flat, take it slow then do it 1½ second flat or just remove his mana to avoid being totally crushed by either his passive or his ulti. Either case, you remove his ulti without causing too much damage to yourself.

Right now, I have no idea what to really say about the design, other than this:
I am entrigued. He got the potential to be stupidly overpowered, and also potential to be a dummy-check in the same sense as Myrmidon.
I will come with critique in any shape or form tomorrow after I've played with him. :)

[Omid]

I'm mind****ed. His ulti is not supposed to trigger when he is below 50% mana. But he has no spells that cost mana. Wat?

[Aray]

I'm mind****ed. His ulti is not supposed to trigger when he is below 50% mana. But he has no spells that cost mana. Wat?


During the preview, he casts his combo several times, and is always at full mana. Even his ultimate doesn't use any mana, it just requires it to be there!

....

[Sabre070]

Nullfire blade...

[Ripoff]

I think this guy will start with 5 int and have a 0.5 int gain per level or something like that.

[TheRedSpy]

yeah he will have a really small int gain or mana pool forcing investment in int items just for his ulti and thus balancing him

[oberbreit]

well you cant say manaless
he just doesn't use it (very often :s)

manaless are warriors and rogues in wow
when another energy-source than mana is implemented to hon you can start crying

[korDen]

I think that he still spends mana for items that have mana cost (Alchemist Bones, Codex, Portal Key etc), unlike Drunk Master. And yes, Nullfire Blade should be very strong against him.

[Veldom]

well you cant say manaless
he just doesn't use it (very often :s)

manaless are warriors and rogues in wow
when another energy-source than mana is implemented to hon you can start crying

Thinking about the "Drunken Fighter" (or w/e his name was) that's in development.

[Reminator]

wall of text
Why you must think about hero you still don't know almost nth about.
Also in 3 sec you just run away and he is useless.
Also about your sig. he meant hb=hellbourne. fail sig.

[Nigma]

Aside from the fact that his Q and W abilities do, in fact, cost no mana, I don't think you guys appreciate the fact that he has to pay life to cast his other abilities. The life lost by casting these are always percentages of his total health, meaning he has to cast them sparingly.

Moreover, neither his Q or W can really be "spammed" since both require some positioning. Q rests on the assumption that your target is stunned, slowed, immobilized or otherwise guaranteed to be in a certain spot at a certain time. W requires you to be right next to the target (which as we know from abilities such as Moraxus' Quake, are difficult to pull off in the laning phase).

Think of it this way, every time he casts a spell, he is hurting himself, bringing himself closer to ulting without actually wanting to. It may seem unsettling that the only way you can stop him from ulting is to burn his mana, but in reality, most of the time he's paying a much larger price than other heroes by casting spells.

[el_alcazar]

I think, this hero will be countered very easy, by every hero which can work with puzzlebox or nullfire.

[ToxicMonkey]

So :mage: will be the ultimate counter huh... (And Nullfire of course)

[Nigma]

Also, for the record, Q costs 20% MAX health to cast, and W costs 12% Max health to cast. Q can heal you if you use it correctly, but if you don't you're going to be seriously injuring yourself.

[Chaka_]

:vind:

[Imb]

I like the concept of this hero, his "manalessness" seems pretty balanced, as long as it is not an infinite resource like that chipperesque lol hero it seems that paying with health is just as good as paying with mana. Really looing forward to basking in his presents!

Btw, does anyone know if the ult still triggers if he is silenced when he dies?

[Sordak]

question is how much mana does R cost? do you need 100% in order to have it work?

also the fact that he doesnt burn any mana for skills makes him pretty neat for useable items that cost mana.

[ToxicMonkey]

^ Not really since he's probably going to have a really small mana pool, and I don't really see him doing well with a :Codex: or other...

[Proletariat]

So what sort of mana pool are we looking at, Nigma? Would he have the capacity to use many mana items as much as he wants?

[mega_igor]

Just need to kill him last in teamfights or eat his mana.

[Eishun]

true, it is no mana
but it cost health. it's a high risk high gain hero

btw his ult still trigger, at video scout do silence him, but he still do his ult.

drunken master in other hand, doesnt use any cost to use his skill [from the description and the sticky thread]

why health cost is acceptable while drunken's one not?

simply because it is capped, health do have cap, mana do have cap, the drunken one?
no cost at all to use skill?

[Yourmothers]

So does silence stick onto him as he "dies" null'ing his ult if the silence is longer than the 3 sec it take for him to resurrect?

and in terms of :vind: - would vindis aura silence him upon resurrection since his ulti would be considered a spell but then the auto Ignite would be silenced?

[XroW]

Aside from the fact that his Q and W abilities do, in fact, cost no mana, I don't think you guys appreciate the fact that he has to pay life to cast his other abilities. The life lost by casting these are always percentages of his total health, meaning he has to cast them sparingly.

Moreover, neither his Q or W can really be "spammed" since both require some positioning. Q rests on the assumption that your target is stunned, slowed, immobilized or otherwise guaranteed to be in a certain spot at a certain time. W requires you to be right next to the target (which as we know from abilities such as Moraxus' Quake, are difficult to pull off in the laning phase).

Think of it this way, every time he casts a spell, he is hurting himself, bringing himself closer to ulting without actually wanting to. It may seem unsettling that the only way you can stop him from ulting is to burn his mana, but in reality, most of the time he's paying a much larger price than other heroes by casting spells.

Because of this, can we expect his mana pool to be very small?
Making nullfire etc extra effective or will he have similar stats gains as anyother hero?

[Asrial]

To those who mentioned item usage:
I reckon he is going to be built like a tanky carry, primarily because of his passive. So he hardly has any use for his mana, other than just having it for his ult.

And yes, the ability does cost quite a big amount of health. BUT! I feel he is going to be played somewhat like armadon, since if you focus him, he deals tons of AoE damage, and ultimately flipping the table.

He's a squishier, higher DPS and mana-less version of armadon from what I see. I really want to see the numbers here, before I call him ultimately OP, as i said before. But his lack of defence might be his redeeming weakness.

*fetches popcorn*

[Reldnahc]

Restoration Stone inc gimmick build. He can abuse it early on if rushed maybe because Resto stone's absurd mana cost is neglected by the fact that he only has 1 mana ability!

[Kenpachi1337]

Aside from the fact that his Q and W abilities do, in fact, cost no mana, I don't think you guys appreciate the fact that he has to pay life to cast his other abilities. The life lost by casting these are always percentages of his total health, meaning he has to cast them sparingly.

Moreover, neither his Q or W can really be "spammed" since both require some positioning. Q rests on the assumption that your target is stunned, slowed, immobilized or otherwise guaranteed to be in a certain spot at a certain time. W requires you to be right next to the target (which as we know from abilities such as Moraxus' Quake, are difficult to pull off in the laning phase).

Think of it this way, every time he casts a spell, he is hurting himself, bringing himself closer to ulting without actually wanting to. It may seem unsettling that the only way you can stop him from ulting is to burn his mana, but in reality, most of the time he's paying a much larger price than other heroes by casting spells.

Is hellflower a proper way of disabling his ult for a short period of time?

[Thermy]

This is a troubling trend, two straight heroes that do not use "mana" at all. ****, you might as well call the drunken master's mana bar "heat" (You were making fun of it earlier, but thats all it is, it's gimick crap)

S2 keeps down this road they'll have a harder time than Riot keeping this game balanced....

[travel]

does anyone else feel that these gimmick heroes are completely unnecessary? If you make a strong, interesting hero it doesnt need a gimmick to be loved.

Seems like its just covering up a lack of creativity and balance in other areas. oh hey this hero can pull a tree, dont mind the exciting passive damage and illusion ultimate.

Engineer and puppet dont play like other heroes, but their skills all work well with each other and dont rely on a gimmick. They still stand as some of S2s best work in design, along with most of the other beta heroes. Unique playstyles, skill synergy, unique ultimates. I dont know if they hired some new people after beta, but its been alot of misses since retail.

Id rather seem more skill synergy then gimmicks and passive skills.

[Chello`]

Puzzle Box -> Win

[LUC3NT]

GUYS GUYS!!! you are forgetting that S2 did not balance yet.

[Juztice314]

Seems balanced. He uses his health instead of mana so in theory he can cast his spells perhaps more than a mana user but at the same time he takes damage for it so there is a point he has to stop. He seems to be a very tactical hero requiring good judgement on the players part when and how to use the spell.

I personally like him because he can be countered by heroes such as Magebane and Vindicator but also items such as Puzzlebox and Nullfire Blade.

His mana is used to activate his ultimate so it kind of forces players to think about their items for once. Heroes like this could teach people the game and show people that you can't follow a guide 100% and need to pick items based on set up.

GJ S2.

Edit: Just want to say this new hero feels like a Warrior from World of Warcraft or what they used to be like atleast (Blizzard changed it so much now) damaging yourself to generate damage.

[Hax]

Blood chalice core :scou:

[Hugsforpeace]

If you barbed armor your self and use your abilities do you explode?

[Testingrani]

In order to prevent him from reincarnating, you have to treat him like Leoric (Skeleton King) from DotA.

Use this hero:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/37/icon_128.jpg

Get Puzzlebox / Nullfire blade.

[Jonsson]

Also, for the record, Q costs 20% MAX health to cast, and W costs 12% Max health to cast. Q can heal you if you use it correctly, but if you don't you're going to be seriously injuring yourself.
Since the spells cost a % of his max health, does it mean he can deny himself or are they non-lethal? 20% of your max hp would be quite easy to use for that purpose anyway.

[yourstruly]

I'd rather not speculate too much on how to build him and what his exact role is, before seeing the numbers and finding out mechnics, how his skills actually work.

[Demonic150]

Witch Slayer seems like a decent counter against this hero in team fights.

Edit:
Since he doesn't use any mana, would he really need Blood Chalice as core?

[Sabre070]

This is a troubling trend, two straight heroes that do not use "mana" at all. ****, you might as well call the drunken master's mana bar "heat" (You were making fun of it earlier, but thats all it is, it's gimick crap)

S2 keeps down this road they'll have a harder time than Riot keeping this game balanced....

I would agree with you, but LoL is pretty much balanced as well as HoN.

Other than that I don't like the idea of heroes not using mana, doesn't really work in HoN.

[Nigma]

Since the spells cost a % of his max health, does it mean he can deny himself or are they non-lethal? 20% of your max hp would be quite easy to use for that purpose anyway.

I believe his Q and W are both non-lethal.

[Eishun]

This is a troubling trend, two straight heroes that do not use "mana" at all. ****, you might as well call the drunken master's mana bar "heat" (You were making fun of it earlier, but thats all it is, it's gimick crap)

S2 keeps down this road they'll have a harder time than Riot keeping this game balanced....

true
but i think this hero is fine since it is using HEALTH as it cost

but drunken master? "drunk bar"?
i'm okay with this hero but i'm really not okay with drunken master



I would agree with you, but LoL is pretty much balanced as well as HoN.

Other than that I don't like the idea of heroes not using mana, doesn't really work in HoN.

lol heroes are balanced, their system is not unfortunately ..

[Sabre070]

lol heroes are balanced, their system is not unfortunately ..

Uh.. What?

I assume you're one of these people that play on a new account and go 'oh no, I can beat these people so the game is ****'?

Either that or 'I lost, they obviously paid to win'.

[Demonic150]

I think the health system Amun-Ra has is pretty balanced. With whatever HP boosting items he has, he will always lose that % of his health when he activates his ability. And if you want to really disable him get some sort of way to drain his mana. He will play much safer and can't rez with that insane ult of his. gg

[Ogrim]

Witch Slayer seems like a decent counter against this hero in team fights.

Edit:
Since he doesn't use any mana, would he really need Blood Chalice as core?

Well the more mana he has, the more he can do against mana drainers the better. Blood chalice could be a solid way to get back above 50 % mana before dying. Actually it would speed up your death too which would be good if u were being drained. If you got chalice you would want to keep you mana as low as possible tho for most of the game.

[Parag]

Maybe nullstone would be good on him for the defensive, and the mana regen, in case they got mana drainers?

[LoveBigButts]

Countered by...

:fayd::elec::vind::mage::witc::NullfireBlade:

[Tucker_]

puzzlebox 3 is seriously going to destroy this hero

[rotner]

Instead of spamming new heroes why wont you just focus on balancing the new heroes whom youve already released?

[Work4TheMan]

looks promising, also malikens post on professionalism seems to work as well as nigma, of whom I stated before is 'the killer of trolls and stealer of bikes', has completely taken over responding to people.

Awesomesauce. Improving nicely S2.

[angrychair]

I can't watch the video atm and can't remember if it was mentioned, but what type is this he? Int or strength? I'm assuming he's strength since he has little use for mana but a high use for health, but hell, Engi is still agi.

[Miku_Hatsune]

shrunken to prevent manaburning , blood chalice ( depending on how low his basemanapool really is ) and pure dps items could work, waiting for more details

[Tr1cky]

obviously none of these guys are even paying attention to what nigma wrote , in the fact that his manaless skills aren't that wow cause they take away life .. they're still trying to find out ways on how to remove his mana and so on .. so u can naturaly assertain that the number of skilled players or even angry dudes but they know how to play .. is waaaaaay wayyyy waaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy low ... imo. For the love of God stop talking about his mana pool like thats the only thing this guy has worth of mentioning!!

[Nome]

The way you need to think about Amun-Ra is this:
What if every time you took damage, you lost mana?
What if you every time you spent mana, you took damage?
Both of these are bad, but then add this.
What if you could increase your health by increasing your mana, and vice versa?

It's a double-edged sword.

[Oinkerdude]

Can Ra kill himself with his skills?

[korDen]

Can Ra kill himself with his skills?

Nigma's reply:

I believe his Q and W are both non-lethal.

Note that "I believe" means he is unsure... Maybe it's not settled yet (and nothing was said in the spotlight).

If it REQUIRES you to have 20% HP to cast his Q, maybe an ability is disabled when the hero is below that amount. Otherwise, I'd think he can kill himself.

Let's wait for another day to be sure!

[CiganoX]

just to remember, he pay a cost for using his abilities, itens can be a way to spam... but u neeed to DO the item first, wich is not so easy when u use health as mana, its like when u use the BC at lvl 5 with 50%hp, if has tb and anyother ( if they see u doing this) in lane u just die, ofc at the middle of the game if he do a HoBL and a Runed Axe, he can be a very anoying.

[AnaICrusader]

Ummmm so let me get this straight at level 6 he will pretty much have a token?

[Eishun]

Uh.. What?

I assume you're one of these people that play on a new account and go 'oh no, I can beat these people so the game is ****'?

Either that or 'I lost, they obviously paid to win'.

you need to play so much to get at least a decent champs
and most likely runes and masteries

lets say 2 player with same start
one with payed heroes at beginning
and who play without pay

the "payed" one can focus on buying runes while the non-payed one need to focus on buying those champs first, then runes

it's just, that game is a CASUAL-moba genre games
ffs...

[Passthechips]

Ummmm so let me get this straight at level 6 he will pretty much have a token?

Kind of like Leoric, yah. Or like any jungler who can take Kong at level 7.

[Pyrogen]

The way you need to think about Amun-Ra is this:
What if every time you took damage, you lost mana?
What if you every time you spent mana, you took damage?
Both of this are bad, but then add this.
What if you could increase your health by increasing your mana, and vice versa?

It's a double-edged sword.

That was very confusing, excusing the spelling mistakes. Do you mind explaining that again?

Edit: will resto stone auto activate like it does in dota?

[_CokeZero_]

Ummmm so let me get this straight at level 6 he will pretty much have a token?

Plenty of options to deal with it. Dont forget at lvl 6 and at 50% hp he is gonna be easy to kill again, and if he wants to cast anything hell be down to 30-40%. Also the seconds hes laying not moving/doing anything gives you a chance to set up so many heroes.
:valk::corr::nymp::tort::pyro::alun::glad::dead::s ilh::doct::temp::trem::chip::zeph::fors::swif::pol l::gaun::engi::succ::myrm::mage::fayd::witc::souls ::phar::bubb::devo::pest::legi::balp::slit::pebb:: bomb::krak::vood:


All of those heroes have the potential to rekill an amun after res with 50% hp.

[Luos`]

He's got a stun, probably will be decent.

[Turdburglar]

And now this games transition into LoL is nearly complete...

[Eishun]

And now this games transition into LoL is nearly complete...

wait until "drunken master" comes

[Idejder]

He cannot kill himself with his own abilities. If he has a DOT on him and uses a spell, it can take him to 0.00000000001 health, which then he will instantly die from the DOT, but he cannot deny himself.

[Zpredator]

He cannot kill himself with his own abilities. If he has a DOT on him and uses a spell, it can take him to 0.00000000001 health, which then he will instantly die from the DOT, but he cannot deny himself.

Thankfully Idejder is one of the approved-posters, is there a troll still inside of you? Or did S2 cut it out?

[Frosty_Skull]

mana ring :)

[Luos`]

He cannot kill himself with his own abilities. If he has a DOT on him and uses a spell, it can take him to 0.00000000001 health, which then he will instantly die from the DOT, but he cannot deny himself.

Do DoTs damage on every frame?

[ElementUser]

Do DoTs damage on every frame?

Yes, that is how DoT's work in general.

Note that just because the damage type is DoT does not imply that it always does damage every frame (ie, Hellbringer's Death Boil)

[SomaZ]

I like how S2 responds to almost everything but doesn't mention the cooldown on his ultimate.

[bolonypony]

I like how S2 responds to almost everything but doesn't mention the cooldown on his ultimate.

I like how people can't just wait for tomorrow to find out for themselves.

[SomaZ]

I like how people can't just wait for tomorrow to find out for themselves.

Are you kidding me? Why are you reading this thread then? Just wait for tomorrow without knowing how his skills work. So stupid...

[Nome]

I like how S2 responds to almost everything but doesn't mention the cooldown on his ultimate.
We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.

[SomaZ]

We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.

Thank you ^^

[Zpredator]

We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.

Won't that create a problem for controlling the pace of the game? (holding off until cooldowns are up?)

[Emin3m]

the hero counter are weird for me,. might you explain why they counter him. i got a lil bit idea but still a mistery..


Another hero that poeple will use it wrong. i watched the spotlight and im more lost than i was..... is there posibility to have spotlight in french or showing his ability tooltips. Ms pudding have a nice voice but i hardly understand . MY english isnt good but still.....

[pakoito]

We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.
Get him a Refresher for three lives fun. And Token for the 4th.

[Wae_to_hoT]

We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.
:temp: fails :D

[GLun]

Instead of spamming new heroes why wont you just focus on balancing the new heroes whom youve already released?

How about do both? =)

[Nabegorthir]

We haven't mentioned any numbers yet outside of what's in the video :p
Depending on its level, it can be either the longest or second longest cooldown in the game.

If you think about keepers sights it will prob be very long

[Melki303]

Lets just wait, see and hope.

[SB]

Never picked up for competitive play, too easily countered. :vind:

[PSI_Thunder]

I'm a bit curious on how he would interact with Martyr's abilities.

[Pyrogen]

Never picked up for competitive play, too easily countered. :vind:

He is clearly a late pick,