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View Full Version : Taking the next step (Playing Melee vs Ranged)



jtown
09-28-2009, 03:41 AM
I started this game about 1 month ago.. Not that long.
During my first few games I would go severely negative on my KDR
ie. 0-12-2 etc. I learned how to survive better, how to counter certain things, i currently always am even-positive on Newb Games, and play ranged heroes.. This is my downfall.

Ranged heros are so much easier to lane with. I cant seem to ever do descent laning while i'm a melee type of player. I cant seem to make the jump. Every time i get close to last hit/deny i get attacked by the other players.

I have fun playing heroes such as Arachna, Moon Queen, Succubus, etc. I want to learn to be descent with night hound, or some other hard carry. I have read probly Every guide in the Premium Guide listing.. (I had a week where i could only get online from my sisters laptop and was stuck at the house all day).

Magmus or Behe would probly be quite a bit of fun as well if i could only learn how to lane properly without getting my ass handed to me.

I have read the laning guide, I have read the guide on each of them. I can do alright half the time.. unlike ranged where i can do it the vast majority of the time.

ComMcNeil
09-28-2009, 03:50 AM
gratz, you found out that laning with ranged is easier that with melee =)

honestly, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes to lane with a melee hero

loggers hatchet may prove usefull if you have problems with last hitting/denying (although i still mess up with that quite often)

jtown
09-28-2009, 03:52 AM
gratz, you found out that laning with ranged is easier that with melee =)

honestly, it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes to lane with a melee hero

loggers hatchet may prove usefull if you have problems with last hitting/denying (although i still mess up with that quite often)
is getting loggers and rushing abysal skull (sp-The life leach aura item) a bad idea?

Jake
09-28-2009, 04:02 AM
is getting loggers and rushing abysal skull (sp-The life leach aura item) a bad idea?
Abysal skull = bad idea

Try to pick good combo. Anykind of double stun/disable is one, night hound or scout are not.

_Archangel_
09-28-2009, 04:08 AM
is getting loggers and rushing abysal skull (sp-The life leach aura item) a bad idea?

Logger's is great; Abyssal is not.

Melee carries generally work best with a babysitter with them. Such babysitters include Demented Shaman (Supporting with a ministun/slow and a heal to keep you in lane to boot) and Glacius (A great disable, a nice four-second slow and of course that tasty mana regeneration for spell-spamming). Swiftblade is probably a great melee carry to start with; he definitely has stronger lane control than the average melee carry. Feel free to add me to buddies and message me ingame; we'll go join an AP game and I'll pick Glacius, you pick Swiftblade and lane together. :P

crazysheep
09-28-2009, 04:14 AM
Or you could try some of the tankier Str melee heroes - Jeraziah, Legionnaire, Pestilence. Lego is especially easy to use - each harass gives you the chance to damage. Early game the 100 damage from his Whirling Blade really hurts.

Droggeltasse
09-28-2009, 04:24 AM
I had the same problem like you, i started with range hereos cause laning is much easier and switched after that.
The most important thing here is to get in deny/last hit and than go out of there range again, but it takes some time to get this going.
My solution to this was to choose a hereo that is dangerous in the laning phase cause of a stun or big dmg output. Some good examples are swiftblade, elecktrician and pestilence, once the enemy is aware of the fact that coming to close to you is realy dangerous you will have more room cause they will stay more defensive.
Another tip if u have probs with small portions of dmg is to buy 6 runes of blight instead of heal potions. This will allow you to regenerate the few atacks you get when you try to last hit very well and against a enemy lineup with spamming spells a mana battery is good for that too. And as mentioned befor loggers hatched makes everything so much easier.
This means a good starting equip if you have a problem like this would be:
1xLoggers Hatchet (or Mana Battery and buy hatchet at the outpost)
2xRunes of Bligth
3xMinor Totems(or 1x crushing claws)

Of course this is no pro advice this is just how i solved this problem for me.

Puchi
09-28-2009, 04:37 AM
Or you could try some of the tankier Str melee heroes - Jeraziah, Legionnaire, Pestilence. Lego is especially easy to use - each harass gives you the chance to damage. Early game the 100 damage from his Whirling Blade really hurts.

Lego Should not be laning, he is one of the strongest lvl1 Jungler other then that you are correct.

as a melee hero laning can be hard, yes specially when your up against 1 storng range like arachna, moonq, TB, succubus etc, lasthitting vs one of those heroes can be rough to say the least. What i allways try to do is use you abillitys to lasthit, and get loggers not as fist item but as soon as you can get it from outpost.

Something els that i see alot of players do wrong is using thier offensive spells against the opposing hero too early, if you can save your mana untill lvl 3 and then try to nuke one of the heroes your facing, make sure both of you go for the same.

And finally if you have a strong hero in mid call a gank on your lane..

facers
09-28-2009, 05:13 AM
Lego Should not be laning, he is one of the strongest lvl1 Jungler other then that you are correct.

as a melee hero laning can be hard, yes specially when your up against 1 storng range like arachna, moonq, TB, succubus etc, lasthitting vs one of those heroes can be rough to say the least. What i allways try to do is use you abillitys to lasthit, and get loggers not as fist item but as soon as you can get it from outpost.

Something els that i see alot of players do wrong is using thier offensive spells against the opposing hero too early, if you can save your mana untill lvl 3 and then try to nuke one of the heroes your facing, make sure both of you go for the same.

And finally if you have a strong hero in mid call a gank on your lane..

Lego shouldn't be laning? You're joking right? He can completely shut down you're opponents in a lane if you have a proper laning partner and he is hell for any melee. Even double ranged have a hard time against him.

As for moonqueen shes not very difficult to lane against if you're melee. She has such short range that harassing makes it difficult for her and you can easily outlast hit her with a hatchet.

Even ranged heroes have trouble soloing against succubus and TB. They are a lot stronger soloing than they are laning with a partner. They benefit much more from soloing as well because their ults are great.

Dual melee isnt always bad. Any lane with pestilence, with ranged or another melee, is still very difficult. He can stun more than once during a chace and hes pretty tanky. Another stunner almost guarantees a kill if you're chasing them down.

Laning all comes down to player skill. Doesn't matter what the match up is in a lane if one side just completely outplays the other. One thing you'll have to learn when your melee is Opportunity. When you choose to throw out your stun or disable can make a huge difference in dominating your lane.

MABManZ
09-28-2009, 06:17 AM
The new Kraken is one of the easiest melees to lane with. Lvl your splash early and grab a logger's hatchet, you can last-hit creeps when they are near 50% health.

Get 1 lvl of Charge and when that squishy ranged heroes steps in to harass you, charge them and pummel with a good splash, and then back out (unless it's Arachna..)

Mana battery also helps a ton for STR/AGI heroes with a low mana pool.

ComMcNeil
09-28-2009, 06:21 AM
Get 1 lvl of Charge and when that squishy ranged heroes steps in to harass you, charge them and pummel with a good splash, and then back out (unless it's Arachna..)
id save charge for the getaway effect earlygame

Puchi
09-28-2009, 06:28 AM
Lego shouldn't be laning? You're joking right? He can completely shut down you're opponents in a lane if you have a proper laning partner and he is hell for any melee. Even double ranged have a hard time against him.

I know Lego is a strong laner, but 2 solo lanes/1 jungler gives your team a stronger midgame and that imo is bettre then shuting down one lane with lego early on. Also its fairly easy to gank from jungle. both mid and top/bot

Whalecore
09-28-2009, 07:07 AM
Kraken is indeed an awesome lane hero because of splash! Also he's probably one of the most dangerous lvl 5 heroes because of pretty health + damage output with splash+tsunami. I've had a game where I got a doublekill @ lvl 5 because the opponent team were a bit low and pushed too far out!

Also he's very fat making him a good creepblocker :P

akitoes
09-28-2009, 07:50 AM
10 posts and no mention of
Blood Hunter ?

Few heroes are better fit for soloing as a melee. (you can watch glorify's vod)

Jeraziah also has outstanding lane control, Maliken too, and a couple others.

Obviously, creep blocking is even more important when playing solo melee, as you will benefit much more for tower protection and higher ground (in case of middle).

If you don't have amazing staying power, you should lane with a ranged who does have lane control.

dreamex
09-28-2009, 09:37 AM
The problem with melee laners is that you can only achieve lane dominance when your partner is not an r-tard.

Melee stunners like behemoth, magmus or hammerstorm are incredibly dangerous early game when paired with a strong ranged presence like pyromancer, arachna, voodoo jester, etc provided that both players are not retarded a dual stun lane is an easy kill opportunity from level 3 onward.

There's a huge discrepancy between laning in pubbies where everybody hangs out 600 units behind the creep line and laning in more competitive games where there's a guaranteed FB combination at lvl 3 for most of the hero compositions.

Anyway, if you're playing melee carries you need a babysitter, if you're playing melee casters with good early game nukes you need to pair with a strong ranged early gamer.

machwell
09-28-2009, 09:44 AM
Where can I see this bloodhunter vod?

bittersweets
09-28-2009, 10:44 AM
All I really play is hard carries and over time I've learned how to deal with the early game lane.

First off, the most important part of trying to lane with a melee hero is regeneration. I can not even begin to describe how useful a single ring of regen is. If the enemy team has lots of nukes, buy two rors and turn it into a shamans headdress later. The good thing about the ring is that you can never run out of regen. It is a good bit more expensive then other early game items, but it can be used in a couple of useful items later on. Have you ever tried to harass a devourer who intends to go headdress? not easy.

Secondly, its important to realize where the creeps are. As a melee hero, often you can only attack your creeps because the other teams creeps are in stun range. Don't be tempted to take the risk and run around to the other side, it will get you killed more often then not. A tip, if you force attack the enemies hero near by the creeps, even if you are far from the hero, it will have their creeps run around to your side and try to attack you. This is counter-productive for most lane control situations as it eventually pushes your lane.

Finally, if your lane is really looking sour the only thing you really do is go stack creeps and pull. This will keep your creeps at the tower and give more experience to your lane partner. This will also deny your opponents experience. If they cancel the creep spawn with ward, you have to counter-ward. If they try to gank you, gank them back.

I know I completely ignored a lot of stuff, but you guys already mentioned babysitters and ranged/melee pairs and fun stuff like that.

geofflee
09-28-2009, 11:24 AM
1) Only move in to last-hit. Otherwise, hang back near your archers.

2) Counter-harass. This means if an enemy hero is harassing your lane partner, harass him back.

3) Get survivability items. Lifetube and Trinket of Restoration helps you regain lost health while you're hanging back. Iron Buckler and Iron Shield reduce damage when you get harassed. Strength boosters such as Crushing Claws increase your hitpoints and HP regen. Runes of Blight and Bottle are a quick way to restore HP.

4) Avoid having two melee heroes as lane partners.

5) Buy a Logger's Hatchet to deal more damage to creep.

ElementUser
09-28-2009, 11:51 AM
I know Lego is a strong laner, but 2 solo lanes/1 jungler gives your team a stronger midgame and that imo is bettre then shuting down one lane with lego early on. Also its fairly easy to gank from jungle. both mid and top/bot

It really depends on your lane opponents, your lineup and your (possible) lane partner when deciding to lane or jungle

Trazgo
09-28-2009, 12:08 PM
Some melee are great laners, some are not.

Blood Hunter, for example, can solo mid very well despite being melee as long as you get a Logger's Hatchet and last hit well because his Feast will keep healing you.

Electrician is great in dual-lanes despite being melee because of his long disable, low mana costs spells (one of which can actually give him mana while nuking if you hit a hero and some creeps), and a fair amount of health.

On a whole though, it is easier to harass as a ranged hero just because you can attack the melee hero once and back off before creeps focus you all while the melee hero is out of range.

pellwav
09-28-2009, 12:11 PM
Where can I see this bloodhunter vod?
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=22976

Qwernakus
09-28-2009, 12:11 PM
If you want some easy laning as a melee hero, grab a Iron Buckler and a Trinket of Restoration or some stats.

elevator13
09-28-2009, 01:51 PM
I get Iron Buckler on every melee hero. I haven't tried Trinket of Restoration over Runes though...

dreamex
09-28-2009, 01:56 PM
I get Iron Buckler on every melee hero. I haven't tried Trinket of Restoration over Runes though...

it's a horrible idea unless you lane against soul reaper

akitoes
09-28-2009, 03:10 PM
If you want some easy laning as a melee hero, grab a Iron Buckler and a Trinket of Restoration or some stats.
false
here's mathematical proof

603
buy buckler
353
buy trinket
3

logger's = 225

3-225 = -223

dreamex
09-28-2009, 03:32 PM
false
here's mathematical proof

603
buy buckler
353
buy trinket
3

logger's = 225

3-225 = -223

Side shop all 3 of those imo, but the trinket is really worthless, as is the buckler to start.

Logger's vs stats out of the gate is debatable depending on your hero, some heroes make better use of a compliment of stats + regen and pick up logger's at side, others can just go straight for it.

ComMcNeil
09-29-2009, 04:38 AM
after testing behe with and without loggers, id stay simply without it

his dmg is neglectable, even with the hatchet, so focus on harassing the enemy heroes, especially if they are melee

nice laning combo yesterday was me behe + nymph, unlimited mana for fissure harass and guaranteed kills if the enemy melee hero tries to get last hits or denies

Puchi
09-29-2009, 05:02 AM
Yea nymp and Behemoth is very very very strong i love to block and then pod its just brilliant. Those to are the propper way to shut down a lane.

nakke
09-29-2009, 07:28 PM
best tip is let the ranged counter harass.

PurpleJesus
09-30-2009, 11:54 AM
1) Move in near the enemy creep wave
2) Right click an enemy hero
3) Back up, last hit
4) Repeat

Like others said... regen, babysitters and offensive spells make it easier but this technique will keep you further away from ranged harass.