Balphagore's Hell on Newerth Boost

[IsmaelVera]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_X56mregoBL4/TO2iqkMvXnI/AAAAAAAACXI/lsWH2vZkaOY/s400/ballphagore_newerth.jpg

Hi. First I'd like to say that the skill Hell on Newerth is good, noting the innovating method of gaining charges based on mana spent. The actual mechanics are fine, and the creep spawn is quite good.

*I have heard suggestions to make it a Staff option and to reduce the power. Here it is.

However, I do not like how 100 charges does nothing. I suggest this.

Eternal Hell on Newerth (Boosted)

100 charges:

Damage increased to 450/525/600.

Creeps from Corpse Conversion that are in the radius of Hell on Newerth are transformed into Volatile Minions. They cannot be controlled and will attack other units in the vicinity. They do not explode and do not slow units.

Cooldown increased to 160.

------------------------
Justification:
What I attempt to do with these changes is to make :balp: a bit more prominent late game, and to add more to his role of an anti-caster. In a 1v1 situation, clearly this addition will not be OP, since you will not reach 100 charges. It is only in a team fight situation where this skill shines. I avoided making this skill doing scaling damage because :devo: and other heroes that have those types of abilities are carries, and excel at fighting one on one. I also tinkered with adding effects to creeps, such as arrmor debuffs and attack damage, but the ult already deals enough damage already.

Please vote and say what's on your mind.

http://www.allthingshon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Balphagore_Hell_on_Newerth.jpg
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

5 hour bump.
:tort:

[Grreennhorn]

Not the greatest of changes. although balph in his current state could do with whatever buff he gets.

i feel the 700 damage is a bit too high. as in a 5v5 thats atleast 3500 damage (forgetting magic armor) and making this change would never quite work in later game. as your ulti gets charges on % of mana used. In later game casting all 4 spells + items will use 40%or -/+ which would end in most balph players trying so hard to get full charges they never get their ulti off in general. but the idea of a boost to his ulti is great.

[supitsLoki]

^ sup green?

honestly, i feel balphagore is in need of a buff, but i'd much rather it be something relevant to his tanking ability than his ultimate. the ultimate, imo, is great as is, but in my experience, even with headdress and a hotbl, he dies too quickly in team fights.

[IsmaelVera]

Not the greatest of changes. although balph in his current state could do with whatever buff he gets.

i feel the 700 damage is a bit too high. as in a 5v5 thats atleast 3500 damage (forgetting magic armor) and making this change would never quite work in later game. as your ulti gets charges on % of mana used. In later game casting all 4 spells + items will use 40%or -/+ which would end in most balph players trying so hard to get full charges they never get their ulti off in general. but the idea of a boost to his ulti is great.

I calculated the damage increase by how the actual values increase per level, by 75. Damage wise, it's weaker than :wret:'s full bat blast.

The creep boost was the real change. It turned the 50-53 attack of the little creeps into the 83-86 damage of Volatile minions, which is great for fighting their carries and pushing, while still vulnerable to shrunken and barrier.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

Scaled back the damage to 450 at level 1 so that's it's not a :witc: ult.
:tort:

[Elefant_]

mmhh... i think the ult is fine... the real problem is -like supitsloki (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=1976763) said-he dies too quickly... maybe if you add a passive defensive skill effect to the minions skill like the magicarmor on devourer or basearmor like on pebbles or moraxus shield. it doesnt have to be armor or magic armor maybe something else damage reducing... thinkin about faydes damage reducing third skill... something similar would be pretty effective in increasing the effectiveness of balphs ult, since it will be more possible to get in the situation to use it :)

(sorry for my english, hope you understand what i mean)

[IsmaelVera]

mmhh... i think the ult is fine... the real problem is -like supitsloki ("") said-he dies too quickly... maybe if you add a passive defensive skill effect to the minions skill like the magicarmor on devourer or basearmor like on pebbles or moraxus shield. it doesnt have to be armor or magic armor maybe something else damage reducing... thinkin about faydes damage reducing third skill... something similar would be pretty effective in increasing the effectiveness of balphs ult, since it will be more possible to get in the situation to use it :)

(sorry for my english, hope you understand what i mean)

Nah man your english is actually quite good.
I like your idea, especially the way it benefits the creeps. I focused on doing damage, but I can see how this would also help.

Volatile minions do double the damage of your normal ones from your 3rd skill (about 80-85.) I'll check if they have higher armor/magic armor. Thank you for your input.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

shining finger bump
:tort:

[Frostgore]

Agreed, Balpha needs an extra kick later on the game :D

[Emotep]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj7CKk7SCTQ
Yep his ult is really underpowered.

No seriously, maybe balph could use a small buff, but all in all i think he's okay.

[Neefykins]

I only feel balph to be worth something if he's super fed, if not, he's pretty worthless tbh.

[IsmaelVera]

I can settle for the damage boost since S2 said a new hero is coming out that will make push heroes be in.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

Bump.

[PowidL]

nope sorry, mb rescale it a bit but not that much.

[IsmaelVera]

At max level, it's as low as :witc:'s lvl1 nuke.
:tort:

[Kraphty]

I like that idea!

[IsmaelVera]

Thanks. I'll add an new skill pic when you reach 100 charges.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

Bump
:tort:

[idoido]

i agree that getting to 100 charges is pointless.
maybe he should have a passive magic armor per charge.
0.1/0.15/0.2?

[IsmaelVera]

i agree that getting to 100 charges is pointless.
maybe he should have a passive magic armor per charge.
0.1/0.15/0.2?

I thought about that, but it's too defensive. Most ppl complain that making blood hunter stop tp is needed, but then ud need that for other heroes. Nome said to stay away from making heroes like this. He's not a sole tank. The problem is how his effectiveness lowers.
:tort:

[idoido]

Well...either way,they said pushing strats is coming back,he will get his time to shine.

[IsmaelVera]

Sucks...25 votes shy from Pop suggestions.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

1 day ago bump

[Fancy_Pantz]

Wouldn't this make Balph's ulti do 5*250 (1250) magic AoE damage + the Minions that spawn automatically on each hero which is another 5*250 magic damage?

No thanks.

[IsmaelVera]

Wouldn't this make Balph's ulti do magic AoE damage + the Minions that spawn automatically on each hero which is another 5*250 magic damage?

No thanks.

That's if you wait there being useless in a team fight by not using ur E.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

Le bump.
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

bumpzords

[IsmaelVera]

Rebumped

[LolYouReDead]

Yes.

[IsmaelVera]

Thanks!
:tort:

[IsmaelVera]

Bump.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

bump
:balp:

[Jeffbelittle]

Balphagore needs an easier time being his additional role besides "Pusher" rather than a little buff to his ult.

Corpse consumption giving him 5 mana per corpse would be of help to him as his payload takes away basically all his mana, which means he's an auto attacker afterwards.

He also is ludicrously squishy for an "initiator". For each corpse he currently has stored in his belly, if he could gain .5 magic armor and 1 physical armor, that'd be really what balph needs. 7.5 magic armor and 15 melee armor + a little more mana now and again would really make him be able to stay in team fights long enough to pull off a devastating hell on newerth.

[efinngreat]

maybe 2% or 4%(what ever seems fair) decrease in damage taken per minion he has alive, and to balance it. decrease the life span duration of his minions. So since he has a max of 5 minions.. he can spawn his minions when he engages in fights, and have 10% or 20% (again..what ever seems fair) reduced damage taken... good idea?

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=275990

[IsmaelVera]

See the thing is that he is a support tank, unlike :arma: or :legi:. His problem is how he loses some relevance.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

bumpzords
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

Bump.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

bump
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

Bump
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

le bumpzors
:balp:

[ZeroKontrol]

Ya, 100 points needs a reward, this one would work. Especially since balph seems to be in a bad state himself.

[Demigod`]

Good! I like it.

[IsmaelVera]

Thank you sirs.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

According to Drasha and Nome, I am about 6 percent off from moving this to the popular section.
:balp:

[Scrubs]

No. Awful idea. Minions -> volatile minions makes him a 100% permaban never-allowed-to-play-this-is-so-op kind of hero. No.

Also, no.

[IsmaelVera]

No. Awful idea. Minions -> volatile minions makes him a 100% permaban never-allowed-to-play-this-is-so-op kind of hero. No.

Also, no.

You can't control gadgets. Their explode damage is **** anyways.
:balp:

[MacroHard]

You can't control gadgets. Their explode damage is **** anyways.
:balp:

275 aoe per minion is ****?

With 5 minions thats another 1375 damage, and likely to be on a single target if you mico'd them prior to ulting.

Not that I dislike your suggestion, just wanted to point that out.

[IsmaelVera]

275 aoe per minion is ****?

With 5 minions thats another 1375 damage, and likely to be on a single target if you mico'd them prior to ulting.

Not that I dislike your suggestion, just wanted to point that out.

They said the same about Behe's ult with the corpse damage boost, but even then no body ever got it that high. In :balp:'s case, this will rlly punish high mana users since the batlle may already be over once you have this up
:balp:

[Scrubs]

they removed the corpse damage on behe's ult for the same reason. your suggestion makes balph filthy op.

[IsmaelVera]

they removed the corpse damage on behe's ult for the same reason. your suggestion makes balph filthy op.

Read the reason why they changed that from the interview before spewing slander kid.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

bump
:balp:

[Ookam1]

Thumbs up!
loving this suggestion.
Balphagore really needs a buff, he is way to squishy :/

[Elewa`]

i really love balpha nice idea thump up :)

[MacroHard]

Creeps from Corpse Conversion that are in the radius of Hell on Newerth are transformed into Volatile Minions. They cannot be controlled and will attack other units in the vicinity. They do not explode and do not slow units

Im confused. What is the point of changing corpse conversion minions into volatile minions if they cannot be controlled, do not explode, and do not slow units? None of the upsides with corpse conversion minions, none of the upsides of volatile minions. Worst of both worlds.

This suggestion, in its current state, makes it so the 100 charge level is weaker than 80 charge. Most people would rather have the corpse conversion minions, because at least they can be controlled and have a stacking slow attack.

If volatile minions dont explode what is the point?

[IsmaelVera]

Im confused. What is the point of changing corpse conversion minions into volatile minions if they cannot be controlled, do not explode, and do not slow units? None of the upsides with corpse conversion minions, none of the upsides of volatile minions. Worst of both worlds.

This suggestion, in its current state, makes it so the 100 charge level is weaker than 80 charge. Most people would rather have the corpse conversion minions, because at least they can be controlled and have a stacking slow attack.

If volatile minions dont explode what is the point?

They are surprisingly strong at 80-83 damage.
Explode damage was op
:balp:

[MacroHard]

4% stacking slow and the ability to control them is way better than 80-83 damage on a target you cant even select.

At least make them controllable.

[IsmaelVera]

4% stacking slow and the ability to control them is way better than 80-83 damage on a target you cant even select.

At least make them controllable.

Gadgets can't be controlled. Also 6 of those plus 5 are pretty tough. Slow was removed. Also, since they don't take damage from allies, they are already hardier than the normal ones.
:balp:

[IsmaelVera]

le bump
:balp:

[Dawnbringer]

This still doesn't address the key issues with balphagore. Also those minions aren't really doing much if they die in 1-2 hits and don't explode. Keep in mind they will be dealing that damage at level 16 and with an attack cooldown of 1.25 seconds thats roughly 75 physical damage per second per minion. Not very impressive. The 700 AOE damage also is quite high in addition to the exploding creeps.

EDIT: Revert his str gain back to 3.2 and we should see where we stand, also his minions applying slow on every second hit really hurt him bad.

[IsmaelVera]

This still doesn't address the key issues with balphagore. Also those minions aren't really doing much if they die in 1-2 hits and don't explode. Keep in mind they will be dealing that damage at level 16 and with an attack cooldown of 1.25 seconds thats roughly 75 physical damage per second per minion. Not very impressive. The 700 AOE damage also is quite high in addition to the exploding creeps.

EDIT: Revert his str gain back to 3.2 and we should see where we stand, also his minions applying slow on every second hit really hurt him bad.

Changing core numbers is not good. He's a support tank, and should never be in the front lines. Keep that in mind.
:balp:

[Dawnbringer]

Except that to get charges on his ult you need to be near or in the action...

His str gain used to be 3.2 and that was fine, it was the minions that needed and received the nerf.

EDIT: Stop posting Balphagore in every one of your posts -.-

[IsmaelVera]

Except that to get charges on his ult you need to be near or in the action...

His str gain used to be 3.2 and that was fine, it was the minions that needed and received the nerf.

EDIT: Stop posting Balphagore in every one of your posts -.-

Even with the str nerf he's fine. He is already an extremely powerful pusher. The charge collection radius is huge, and with the ult buff he shouldn't need to stack survivability.

And lol it's a pic. Grow up?
:balp:

[Pazuzu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj7CKk7SCTQ
Yep his ult is really underpowered.

No seriously, maybe balph could use a small buff, but all in all i think he's okay.
Yeah because balph isn't 6 lvls ahead of the whole team with his core items and one of his luxury items

In that video his ult Isn't enought to kill all of them at lvl 3 with 100 charges its the frost field plate that kills them



I don't like the increased cool down on his ult.

[IsmaelVera]

Yeah because balph isn't 6 lvls ahead of the whole team with his core items and one of his luxury items

In that video his ult Isn't enought to kill all of them at lvl 3 with 100 charges its the frost field plate that kills them



I don't like the increased cool down on his ult.

It's there for balance, but it lowers 1 sec per enemy spell remember?
:balp:

[Dawnbringer]

As a pusher he is now completely outclassed by keeper.

[MajuiF]

IMO Balphagore doesn't have his spot in HoN. He's pretty much useless. Especially, as Dawnbringer said, since Keeper was reworked.

The hero doesn't even make sense. According to you, he's not supposed to be in the front lines, but he needs charges and to land a good ult he needs to be in the middle of the fight.
He's annoying to play against, sometimes, but rarely an issue.

Edit: I don't like this idea. And in my opinion, Balphagore should be removed from the game. But that's just my opinion.

And to address the "grow up" comment:
You're the one using a Balph image in every post. I hardly think it's an indication of maturity or age.

[IsmaelVera]

As a pusher he is now completely outclassed by keeper.

Not at all. In fact, Balphagore is a faster pusher since he can clear creep wave a lot faster than keeper. Balphagore is also the better team fighter, since he has a radius silence, nuke, and a retardedly OP ult that just got buffed. Not all heroes should be compared 1 to 1 for effectiveness imo.


IMO Balphagore doesn't have his spot in HoN. He's pretty much useless. Especially, as Dawnbringer said, since Keeper was reworked.

The hero doesn't even make sense. According to you, he's not supposed to be in the front lines, but he needs charges and to land a good ult he needs to be in the middle of the fight.
He's annoying to play against, sometimes, but rarely an issue.

Edit: I don't like this idea. And in my opinion, Balphagore should be removed from the game. But that's just my opinion.

And to address the "grow up" comment:
You're the one using a Balph image in every post. I hardly think it's an indication of maturity or age.

Read what I wrote above.
Also, only noobs say "delete ____." That's gotta be the worst and the most retarded thing a player can say, not only because a hero will never be deleted, but also because they can easily be buffed.

Also, you're the one complaining about non-offensive pixels, that would easily not annoy u if they were like 20 spaces down onto my sig. That speaks its own case.
:balp:

[MajuiF]

What amuses me is that you used to put a Torturer icon before, and it seems to have changed. I guess next time you're going to have a good game with another hero you'll change, and use that one instead.

On the topic itself, I'm not a noob who asks "Delete ____", I should have said I don't know why he's been added in this game. I know a hero isn't going to be removed - that's the whole purpose of reworking heroes (like Keeper of the Forest or Engineer, for instance). All I'm saying is that he doesn't need a buff, or a nerf. He just needs to be more ambivalent as a hero, and needs a good chunk of reworking.

Also you dodged the main point of my answer, which the loophole in what you said: you're not supposed to be in the front lines, yet his ultimate needs to be casted inside a teamfight to be effective, and he needs to be in the center of the action to get charges.
He can be used as an offensive Pusher, but that's just a way too limited role for a Hero, who isn't that useful overall already. So he's limited in a limited role - I don't see his purpose in the game as of right now.
Edit: As a matter of fact, he's 85/86 in the Detailed Hero Usage Stats. Only used by 0.4% of the community, (Ophelia being 86 th). That goes to show that his role is either not well defined, or too limited, either that people don't know how to play him/are bad with him/don't like him.

Whenever I see someone pick Balphagore on my team I'm scared. And whenever I see someone on the opposing team pick him, I giggle and he ends up being completely rolled over, if his team isn't compose of Tempest/Polywog/Flux/Kraken/Keeper - to hold them in place.

Fun observation: you have more Deaths than Kills with Balphagore, and hardly any wards placed, and only 2 building kills / game. So either you're doing it wrong, or something is wrong with this hero. Just saying.
Edit: Or you just find him fun to play and enjoy playing him, not caring on either you're bad or good (good games happen) - just like I do with Ophelia :)

[IsmaelVera]

What amuses me is that you used to put a Torturer icon before, and it seems to have changed. I guess next time you're going to have a good game with another hero you'll change, and use that one instead.

On the topic itself, I'm not a noob who asks "Delete ____", I should have said I don't know why he's been added in this game. I know a hero isn't going to be removed - that's the whole purpose of reworking heroes (like Keeper of the Forest or Engineer, for instance). All I'm saying is that he doesn't need a buff, or a nerf. He just needs to be more ambivalent as a hero, and needs a good chunk of reworking.

Also you dodged the main point of my answer, which the loophole in what you said: you're not supposed to be in the front lines, yet his ultimate needs to be casted inside a teamfight to be effective, and he needs to be in the center of the action to get charges.
He can be used as an offensive Pusher, but that's just a way too limited role for a Hero, who isn't that useful overall already. So he's limited in a limited role - I don't see his purpose in the game as of right now.

Whenever I see someone pick Balphagore on my team I'm scared. And whenever I see someone on the opposing team pick him, I giggle and he ends up being completely rolled over, if his team isn't compose of Tempest/Polywog/Flux/Kraken/Keeper - to hold them in place.

Fun observation: you have more Deaths than Kills with Balphagore, and hardly any wards placed, and only 2 building kills / game. So either you're doing it wrong, or something is wrong with this hero. Just saying.
Edit: Or you just find him fun to play and enjoy playing him, not caring on either you're bad or good (good games happen) - just like I do with Ophelia :)

Ofc he's not supposed to be in the front lines! Look at the range on his ult charge collection. If it was something like 500, then yea stack survivabilty and go tank. It's 900. He's prob one of the best initiators that don't rlly need a pk. He's also a good follow up to an initiation because of the blast radius and his Q and E minions can stack slows like a boss. To top it all off, he is an amazing pusher. Try him with at least 2 pushers, and you rlly don't need a carry lol. Also, he works extremely well in a solo situation, and he's a counter to melee mid heroes. That's from my humble 1700 experience though. You're rlly not supposed to pick up kills, and I'm just a terrible player when it comes to kd and most carrys. I do have a good match I'd of some sick Balph play if ur interested.
:balp:

[MajuiF]

Ofc he's not supposed to be in the front lines! Look at the range on his ult charge collection. If it was something like 500, then yea stack survivabilty and go tank. It's 900. He's prob one of the best initiators that don't rlly need a pk. He's also a good follow up to an initiation because of the blast radius and his Q and E minions can stack slows like a boss. To top it all off, he is an amazing pusher. Try him with at least 2 pushers, and you rlly don't need a carry lol. Also, he works extremely well in a solo situation, and he's a counter to melee mid heroes. That's from my humble 1700 experience though. You're rlly not supposed to pick up kills, and I'm just a terrible player when it comes to kd and most carrys. I do have a good match I'd of some sick Balph play if ur interested.
:balp:
Well since he's a Hero I've hardly ever played, I'd be more than interested :D
Maybe we could play together sometime.

[MacroHard]

Balphagore is also the better team fighter (than kotf)
Clearly a 450 damage with slow at 600 radius is better than a 400 damage 4 second team lockdown at 700 radius. And allied armor and invis is way overrated. My mistake.


(Balphagore has a) retardedly OP ult that just got buffed.
...but this entire thread is to make it even stronger. Good call.


Ofc he's not supposed to be in the front lines! He's prob one of the best initiators that don't rlly need a pk.
Not on front line, yet initiator without PK. Wait. What?

[IsmaelVera]

Well since he's a Hero I've hardly ever played, I'd be more than interested :D
Maybe we could play together sometime.

Sure bro. Also, now that you mention it, I've been meaning to look for a decent Ophelia player that can rush puzzle/grieves. My most trololo game was balph/ophelia pushing rax and making them cc at 19 minutes, even though they had a farmed carry and superior team AND 1800 carry. I'll add you when I get the chance!
:balp:

[Dawnbringer]

Clearly a 450 damage with slow at 600 radius is better than a 400 damage 4 second team lockdown at 700 radius. And allied armor and invis is way overrated. My mistake.


...but this entire thread is to make it even stronger. Good call.


Not on front line, yet initiator without PK. Wait. What?
^This. He also wanted SotM on nomad...

[IsmaelVera]

Clearly a 450 damage with slow at 600 radius is better than a 400 damage 4 second team lockdown at 700 radius. And allied armor and invis is way overrated. My mistake.


...but this entire thread is to make it even stronger. Good call.


Not on front line, yet initiator without PK. Wait. What?

You can end Tree's ult with shrunken, but don't compare 1 to 1 heroes.

Thread is to give a sotm option. I believe even behe has a sotm, but couldn't be ported after 6.68.

The blast radius is one of the largest, unlike other smaller initiation radii. So you can easily go push items.
:balp:

[Dawnbringer]

You can end Tree's ult with shrunken, but don't compare 1 to 1 heroes.

Thread is to give a sotm option. I believe even behe has a sotm, but couldn't be ported after 6.68.

The blast radius is one of the largest, unlike other smaller initiation radii. So you can easily go push items.
:balp:
You can block Balphagore's ult with shrunken too, your point?

[IsmaelVera]

You can block Balphagore's ult with shrunken too, your point?

Sir, could you please stop posting on the thread(s)? Not saying that you're wrong, but ur rlly annoying, but I won't flag you for it.

Also, the response was for MacroHard clearly.
:balp:

[Pazuzu]

Im just saying If you buy an ult stick when you could be getting other items then I wouldn't get it if it would increase the cool down.

[IsmaelVera]

Im just saying If you buy an ult stick when you could be getting other items then I wouldn't get it if it would increase the cool down.

Yes. That's why Sotm is an option for many heroes, but never core. There are some exceptions, like Chipper.
:balp:

[Pazuzu]

Yes. That's why Sotm is an option for many heroes, but never core. There are some exceptions, like Chipper.
:balp:
and mag and bomb. WS Pyro and slither.

[Dawnbringer]

Its not core on Mag, WS, Pyro or Slither. Infact you shouldn't really be considering it for those four. Mag needs shrunken, WS needs pk and so does pyro and slither should be warding like a mofo. After Pk's there are far better picks than SotM for witch and pyro (Kuldras sheepstick, tablet of command, some more supportive items). +200 damage to a single target ult for 4400 gold is kind of a joke.

[MajuiF]

Its not core on Mag, WS, Pyro or Slither. Infact you shouldn't really be considering it for those four. Mag needs shrunken, WS needs pk and so does pyro and slither should be warding like a mofo. After Pk's there are far better picks than SotM for witch and pyro (Kuldras sheepstick, tablet of command, some more supportive items). +200 damage to a single target ult for 4400 gold is kind of a joke.
Exactly.
The heroes SotM is actually worth it are limited. I'd say it'd be:
- Ophelia
- Chipper
- Andromeda (if you get the farm and you don't play her as ward-*****)
- Pharaoh (a great luxury addition, IMO)
- Torturer
- Pollywog Priest
- Demented Shaman (eventually)

Once again, it's debatable and questionable. But getting SotM on other heroes than those is just somewhat a waste of 4400 gold. I've seen a Premium SR guide telling players to rush SotM -_-" I disagree so hard with that statement.

Whenever I see a :thun:, :pyro:, :succ:, :soulr:, :devo:, :swif:, :moon:, :witc: or :wret: with SotM I die a little inside. I've even seen some Defiler get it >.>

[MacroHard]

The heroes SotM is actually worth it are limited. I'd say it'd be:
- Ophelia
- Chipper
- Andromeda (if you get the farm and you don't play her as ward-*****)
- Pharaoh (a great luxury addition, IMO)
- Torturer
- Pollywog Priest
- Demented Shaman (eventually)


Disagree with Torturer. Much better off with Sac / Null / Sheep for that tier.
Agree with everyone else, except I've never seen Andro farm 4400 in a legit game.

I would also add Bombadier and VooDoo to that list (assuming better core items are already purchased)

[Dawnbringer]

I don't think it is a bad pickup on pharoah but puzzlebox will always do it for me.

^And yeah, with good support (e.g Tempest/Keeper) SotM adds 600 AOE damage. Not too shabby. Also andromeda has a hard time farming SotM and PK is pretty handy (you swap and blink out).

[Storslusken]

whit sotm add damage on +0 charges, on +40 add a stun for 0,5 sec, and on +80 make spawns run faster

[Dawnbringer]

Exactly.
The heroes SotM is actually worth it are limited. I'd say it'd be:
- Ophelia
- Chipper
- Andromeda (if you get the farm and you don't play her as ward-*****)
- Pharaoh (a great luxury addition, IMO)
- Torturer
- Pollywog Priest
- Demented Shaman (eventually)

Once again, it's debatable and questionable. But getting SotM on other heroes than those is just somewhat a waste of 4400 gold. I've seen a Premium SR guide telling players to rush SotM -_-" I disagree so hard with that statement.

Whenever I see a :thun:, :pyro:, :succ:, :soulr:, :devo:, :swif:, :moon:, :witc: or :wret: with SotM I die a little inside. I've even seen some Defiler get it >.>
TBH it isn't too bad on dev. The heal is really nice but the fact is Heart severely outclasses it (and you should get a shamans first really). Also I never seem to see anyone getting shrunken on dev :(.

Also :magm:. SotM is kinda laughable on him, the buff isn't really much.
Or :glac:,:chro:,:plag:,:slit: <-- weeeeeep.

Really SotM isn't always a "bad pickup". It can actually be a decent item on some heroes. It's just that it gets completely outclassed by other items.

Lastly. WTF IS IT DOING IN REVENANTS AND MONKEY KING'S RECOMMENDEDS? (No i didn't buy monkey king, it is on the website. WTF?) Also wingbow in Revenant's recommended items :/.