to Vanguard or to not? (helm of the black legion)

[Sketch88]

my question is, which heroes is it good to grab helm of the black legion on and which heroes is it bad or worthless to grab it on. i've seen guides that don't grab it, and i have seen them that do.

[Brudish]

Maybe you should let people know what it is ^^ I know what items im getting but I may not know what the name of said item is

[Padawanabee]

I get it on Andromeda, but that's really the only hero I can think of that I get it on. Wouldn't have bothered posting but she isn't on your list.

[Kalb]

simple awnser: NEVER.

i can repeat myself in every thread....

this item is useless. You can surely get the shield. it blocks 20 dmg already. the full hotbl is to much money wasted. There are more important things to buy. The 40dmg block is crap, get armor instead, will block a lot more dmg...

the hp is always ok, but there are better items to boost your hp...

just dont buy this items...and if ou think, you need it, you are just a bad player.
Especially bad, it is on heros like pestilence...the fact, he is stated in here, makes my eyes bleed....why would a carry hero go for an item like this...WTF
To bad there are so many noobs copy-pasting other noobs builds. For some reason it has become a common used item for pesti...but it is just so bad -.-

[Fidel]

See i always thought it was a good thing to have (whilst playing a tank anyway), but now reading kalb's post i feel like not buying it again :(

-ps i am a noob so ...

[Happyfish]

if it not even worth getting on Axe why would it even be consider'd for another hero

[Trysaeder]

Since the nerf of heart, it is harder to get raw hp now. I would call it ok on most heroes, providing you know when to get it.

[Padawanabee]

Do you people always walk into forums angry or something? Seriously....

It's a decent enough item, but it's best use is against heroes who do the majority of their damage with auto attack. And it loses effectiveness about halfway through the midgame. You should really be worried about nukes more than autoattacks early on, anyway, so it isn't always the smartest choice.

[Stickyrolls]

I think It's good if you rush it. Really nice to have early on especially if your an initiator...like PEST...yeah I said it. I was having a lot of problems early game; being the initiator with pest was causing me to die a lot. Once I changed my start build to pretenders crown enroute to fort brac and shield en route to HoBL that all changed. Not very hard to put together fast either. Usually get sustainer in lane from outpost and if doing good during ganking phaose get the heart from SS.

Is HoBL really so bad if gotten early enough? Whats a good alternative to early game damage mitigation and hp/regen?

Edit: Also wtf no one voted for devourer lol. Pretty standard to get it after shaman headress and than behe heart imo.

[hewke]

Its good enough, on some heroes.

I voted Legionare.

[sidsavierre]

if you're farming well and can rush it early-game then it would be a decent option.
if the game is near the beggining of mid-game and you don't farm well, leave it.

btw if you feel rich enough, make 1, then sell it near mid-game (why would you buy it then, anyway?)

i played a game with my ally playing legionnaire in it, he left me alone on the lane, he rushed HoBL, he came back to lane, i killed 2 heroes and he died. then he **rage quit!***

[Elman1]

One word: disassembling. Don't forget that the Helm doesn't need a recipe. Also, it's stronger than in DotA because it blocks damage after armor reduction, not before.


It's great on Electrician. Early game buy 2 shields. Then make a Helm, and you can later disassemble it and use the Lifetube to make a Sustainer (And with it, a Sacrificial Stone), and the heart to make a Behe Heart. You're not wasting your money and you're actually getting more value from it, while sticking to a good Electrician build.

I think it might work on Armadon too if you use the parts to make a Runed Axe and a Behe Heart. But that build isn't that good after Armadon's attack speed from his ultimate was nerfed, I guess.


PS: You can give your lifetube to your teammates so they get the regen... Can they use it on their recipes too?

Cause if they can, that lets you get Helm on other heroes like Legionnaire, where it'd be arguable if it's a good pick. Get a Helm early on and later disassemble, keep the heart and give somebody else the tube.

Anyway, unless I can reuse the parts I wouldn't get helm, unless I'm getting owned by autoattackers early-mid game (Not likely). And in that case, an improved shield is probably a better option, since it has similar block % and it saves you 1500g which you can spend on HP.

[Tajak]

How in the world do you "disassemble" something?

[Kirbynator]

it's a must on legionnaire and decent on armadon/zephyr.

Nothing else.

Also, it's slightly better when you start playing 3v3s/2v2s, as fights will last longer and there will be a lot more physical attacks during them.

[REDALiCE]

How in the world do you "disassemble" something?

In your stash

[fdf_gekido]

i selected it to be picked on everyone

[log1kal]

I voted never, because it never better than a hood (shaman's headress). Even on Legionare. Armor is better than the shield block, which if you really want save yourself the 1400g and just buy the shield. and there are much better items for health gain. Also Headress upgrades into an amazing team item in pipe (barrier idol i think is the name.)

[Testknight]

Vanguard is a decent item now that Heart has been nerfed. It's a strong item for raw HP. I get it on Defiler, Lego, etc...basically anyone who will be focused or can make things focus you.

[Juular]

It's good on legionnaire (and a few other heroes) really early-game; later on, though, you should DEFINITELY disassemble it for the lifetube and beastheart.

[Drasha]

Helm of the Black Legion (2225 Gold)
300 health
+6hps
70% block 40 damage

This item is a common pickamoung players because if feels like you're harder to kill with it on. It gives a decent amount of health passable health regeneration and block. The block mechanic works best against a great deal of vary small hits so its useful if your going to be foresting or tanking creep waves.

Here is a cheaper alternative that gives you more health as well as mana for a lot less gold.
3 bracers (1530 Gold)
+18 str (342 hp)
+9 int (117 mana)
+9 agi

[ain]

I'm surprised how many votes electrician is getting.
The only reason you would ever get it on him is if you're disassembling it when you get your sacrificial heart, but apart from that it's pretty useless on him.

[_PINK]

Never, never, never buy Vanguard.

[UberBahamut]

Helm of the Black Legion (2225 Gold)
300 health
+6hps
70% block 40 damage

This item is a common pickamoung players because if feels like you're harder to kill with it on. It gives a decent amount of health passable health regeneration and block. The block mechanic works best against a great deal of vary small hits so its useful if your going to be foresting or tanking creep waves.

Here is a cheaper alternative that gives you more health as well as mana for a lot less gold.
3 bracers (1530 Gold)
+18 str (342 hp)
+9 int (117 mana)
+9 agi


While true, it doesn't give the damage reduction...Which doesn't sound that much, but its taken off AFTER armor reduction..

You get hit by enemy A for 100 dmg - reduced by armor to 50 dmg. With yourbuild, you take 50 dg

With HotBL it goes
100 - armor (50 dmg) then reduced by 40 dmg.
Hit for a total of 10 dmg

A couple of seconds later,thats regened. :)

[evotech]

Legion and magebane imo, and three bracers takes up 3 slots, aka 50%, which is a bit much for my liking

[Stickyrolls]

So I think the general idea here is get it if you can get it early, and if it's viable on your hero. Then disassemble to turn into better gear later on. To the people that say NEVER obviously are short-sighted and don't think of all situations. Like I posted before if your an initiator and your able to get it early...especially before the first team battle....than it will save you a lot of grief.

[Sketch88]

well seems to me its "only" viable for legionnaire because of his farming abilities, if you can get it early, and if the other team is mostly auto attackers, i dont know, i usually aim for it after boots, which is too late probably. so i guess i will read more things and go a different item path instead of helm, and to the people that just say something and leave it at that, no help what so ever. need to explain your reasoning

[Dederd]

Helm of the Black Legion (2225 Gold)
300 health
+6hps
70% block 40 damage

This item is a common pickamoung players because if feels like you're harder to kill with it on. It gives a decent amount of health passable health regeneration and block. The block mechanic works best against a great deal of vary small hits so its useful if your going to be foresting or tanking creep waves.

Here is a cheaper alternative that gives you more health as well as mana for a lot less gold.
3 bracers (1530 Gold)
+18 str (342 hp)
+9 int (117 mana)
+9 agi
also takes 3 inventory slots and you cant disassemble them for parts

[`aNarchy]

I think it might work on Armadon too if you use the parts to make a Runed Axe and a Behe Heart. But that build isn't that good after Armadon's attack speed from his ultimate was nerfed, I guess.


lol getting HotBL and and iron shield on armadon = invincible

[PoopyDesires]

Lego, Armadon, and Zeffur myself.

Anyone who says it sucks is an idiot not realizing how great it is for alot of heroes. It's not 20 block damage for 1800 gold like most dumbasses think, it's still a ton of regen and health, the block is just a bonus with NO RECIPE.

Getting it on Magebane IS pretty stupid though. You already have blink and should get out before you get hit by stuns.

[nakke]

i was on a team (public ofcourse) where 4 out of 5 on my team got it! -.- pyro pollywog and pest had it -.- .. lets just say that game ended bad

[Czech0]

For noobs, yes its a decent item. But for better players no.

The funny thing about the forums is this kind of discussion happens all the time. The Pros say nooooooooooo and the noobs say ohhh but its soooo goood for me.

When you post you need to consider you audience. Not everyone is on your level. At least give some context to what level of play you are talking about and why. Just saying the item doesnt work for a carry wtf doesn't help noobs out. You might as well just not say anything.

[ForTheSwarm]

While true, it doesn't give the damage reduction...Which doesn't sound that much, but its taken off AFTER armor reduction..

You get hit by enemy A for 100 dmg - reduced by armor to 50 dmg. With yourbuild, you take 50 dg

With HotBL it goes
100 - armor (50 dmg) then reduced by 40 dmg.
Hit for a total of 10 dmg

A couple of seconds later,thats regened. :)

I'm pretty sure the 40 damage reduction is before armor reduction.

[elevator13]

I'm pretty sure the 40 damage reduction is before armor reduction.

True for heroes, but for whatever reason armor reduction occurs before the block for creeps.

[Loosance]

Since there is Barrier in the game i think shaman headress is always better for heroes who wants to tank a little more in fights. But if there is alot of str/agi heroes it can sometimes be done only as starting item or for a jungling hero.

This item definitly needs an up or to reduce the recipe price; or transforming the absorb in "reduce all incoming damages by 10%" (for exemple).

[Travakh]

Vanguard delays other items. This is perfectly fine in low level games where it doesn't matter, but in higher level games where the match will end at the 30 minute mark the extra money you blow on it (instead of, for example, a hood->pipe) the 2k loss is critical.

The only hero I can possibly consider getting it on is zephyr because he farms well enough anyway. Otherwise a normal stout has you covered

[evotech]

Just get it, and later dissasemble it for parts

But just curious, you guys always buy like 3 bracers instead of a vanguard? and then sell them off when you cant fit anything in to your inventory anymore?

WHat items do yo ubuy over a vanguard when you need armor / HP?

ANyhow, "dont get it on magebane because he can blink" is pretty retarded, hes an autoattack hero and needs the HP

[Drasha]

While true, it doesn't give the damage reduction...Which doesn't sound that much, but its taken off AFTER armor reduction..

You get hit by enemy A for 100 dmg - reduced by armor to 50 dmg. With yourbuild, you take 50 dg

With HotBL it goes
100 - armor (50 dmg) then reduced by 40 dmg.
Hit for a total of 10 dmg

A couple of seconds later,thats regened. :)
Its also 700 gold less and you can get it in little bits instead of giant chunks. Also block is before armor. If you have a strength hero bracers are better because of the plus damage so you should get them over the helm unless your playing a hero like lego.

[Travakh]

Just get it, and later dissasemble it for parts

But just curious, you guys always buy like 3 bracers instead of a vanguard? and then sell them off when you cant fit anything in to your inventory anymore?

WHat items do yo ubuy over a vanguard when you need armor / HP?

ANyhow, "dont get it on magebane because he can blink" is pretty retarded, hes an autoattack hero and needs the HP

On heroes whose hp is lacking I just pick up dual bracers then an ultimate orb (blessed orb). Ultimate orb costs the same as a vanguard but can be built into useful items (skadi on carries and tanks, totem on int heroes)

Magebane goes poor man's shield, the +6 agi one. Vanguard on him is retarded.

[evotech]

edit: ok, so Skadi is?

[Droggeltasse]

With the new Sacrificial heart that gives charges for assists its a great item for ele in my opinion. Most of the times i start with a iron.... the shield for 225 gold and rush it in the lane cause you often get some assists early.
Later on when i build my sacrificial heart i breake my Helm.

The total cost to have HoBL early is 225 gold for the shield that helps you laning early.

On pestilence i think its stupid cause you can break it for the behe heart but the life tube is bad cause runed axe is a stupid item for him.

[ellR]

its good on alot of heroes

[Travakh]

edit: ok, so Skadi is?

Frostwolf skull. It's worth the farm, gives magebane everything he can possibly want - fat hp boost, 25 IAS and damage, on-hit slow that eliminates the opposing hero's ability to kite, allows him to 1v1 other farmed agi carries with ease as it slows their attack speed

[bobbyflay]

I tend to find vanguard a lot better in HoN than it was in DotA, as it activates after as opposed to before armor. Thus, in games where you notice spells are only used to get more regular hits vs you and your allies, vanguard is pretty good. I mean, with about 12 armor, you get around 50% damage reduction. Afterwards, vanguard comes into play, and that just reduces that 120 hit to about 20, pretty good imo.

[_PINK]

I tend to find vanguard a lot better in HoN than it was in DotA, as it activates after as opposed to before armor. Thus, in games where you notice spells are only used to get more regular hits vs you and your allies, vanguard is pretty good. I mean, with about 12 armor, you get around 50% damage reduction. Afterwards, vanguard comes into play, and that just reduces that 120 hit to about 20, pretty good imo.

Did you read the thread?

[_Archangel_]

Zephyr and Legionnaire, that's it. And in most cases you want a Shaman's Headdress instead anyway.

[JohnnySmash]

When there's no significant magic damage on other team I go for Helm over Headdress on some tanky characters, what else are you gonna get for defense/HP- sustainer? Hack? Staff of the Master? Try to save up 3200 all at once for that Behemoth's Heart piece? Shrunken Head is cool, but on some chars you want to get get attacked b/c you're a tank and have good reduction, and sometimes like I said you're not facing much magic.

I don't really see bracers or Steamboots as a replacement since the default build for a lot of chars includes those items (or other boots or talisman/soulscream ring) anyways and obviously you aren't gonna double-up instead of getting the helm or any other item after those.

Some characters don't need to auto-attack. If they all did this item would be godly. But 70 life a hit * 70% chance to reduce means average of 49 life "gained" for each autoattack on you. And heck, even as Nymphora or Defiler I get several auto-attacks in every fight. If you're only auto-attacked four times you average out almost 200 life "gained" through the block ability, and that's pretty sweet.

When I play a tanky character and there's not much magic damage on the other team I go for two bracers + Steamboots on strength + Helm of the Black Legion and that usually tips my tank power enough to farm up 3200 to start building the behemoth's heart.