[Evaluation 1] Changeling by bittersweets [9/24-10/8]

[Nome]

This is the first evaluation of The Changeling. Anyone may comment, but only Suggestion Judge votes will be counted at the end of the evaluation.





Remember, all numbers are changeable as it is almost impossible to balance a hero without play testing.
Vote on the concepts please, and if you vote no I would very much like to hear why.
Also, I would really appreciate it if you read all the way through before voting.

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs32/300W/f/2008/212/0/5/Prince_Caspian_by_Tigermyuou.jpg


Marsuvius the Doppelganger –
Team - Legion
An ancient creature with the power to take on any shape, Marsuvius was swapped with a baby prince of a kingdom allied with the legion as a ploy by the Hellbourne. During his “childhood” Marsuvius was shown such kindness that he began to love his “parents”. When the time came for him to finally betray the kingdom, he found himself so enamoured with it that he couldn’t bring himself to complete his traitorous act. Instead, he fled to the battlefield to apply his skills to the war against the Hellbourne.

Art style –Princely and regal, he looks like royalty at least until he attacks or gets attacked. In those moments his true form as a changeling is revealed, his skin a slightly trancelucent grey gel. When he attacks, he forms his arm into a spike and impales the enemy.

Animation – He struts into battle, a hand on the hilt of a sword he never draws or uses, his cape flows out behind him prominently displaying his insignia.

Move speed – 300
As a melee hero, he needs a solid move speed to be able to last hit creeps or get attacks off.

Attack type - Melee (125)
Marsuvius is a melee strength carry, whose job is to dish out as much damage as possible.

Attributes -

Strength – 20(1.9)
Strength, his primary attribute, this lets him tank long enough to get off the damage he will need to control a battle with his ultimate.

Agility – 19(1.8)
Agility controls his attack speed and armor, and will be important as the game goes on.

Intelligence – 22(2)
Intelligence gives him the mana he needs to use Shadow and set snares.

Stats are going to be the biggest factor to control his balance. It is ideal for him to be able to farm early game and support in ganks, but still be weak enough that he can be taken down fairly easily.


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And now for the skills!
Shadow of Ruin– Marsuvius stabs the target from a range, injecting a parasitic Shadow born from his essence into the target. This Shadow attaches to their core and matures over time just waiting for the signal from Marsuvius to explode from its shell and deal damage in an area.

Marsuvius’s façade vanishes temporarily and he leans forward sending out a long thin spike into the target. On detonation, spikes burst out of the unit in all directions.

Targets afflicted with Shadow glow slightly grey to Marsuvius and allies, but otherwise only the target knows that they have been afflicted.
Each target can only have one Shadow at a time.
Marsuvius can trigger a second option on the ability to instantly explode all Shadows placed.
Shadows get stronger the longer they are left without exploding, reaching their max damage 30 seconds after placement.
Allies can be afflicted with a Shadow, but take no damage when the Shadow is detonated.
Shadows last until detonated and can only be removed by death.
At all levels, the max damage is to the target and deals half damage to every other unit in the area.
Single Shadows can’t be detonated by themselves unless they are the only ones in existence.
This ability deals 20 damage to the target when used.

Level 1 – 75 max damage.
Level 2 – 150 max damage.
Level 3 - 225 max damage.
Level 4 - 300 max damage.

On detonation each Shadow affects an area 150 in radius.
Range- 700 at all levels.
Manacost – 80/100/120/140
Cooldown – 10/10/10/10

This is a complicated ability so I will spend some time explaining exactly how it works and how you might use it.

Let’s say you are pushing a lane by yourself at level 7. As you push the lane you apply Shadows to all the allied creeps. Suddenly, someone calls mia and you feel like you are going to be ganked so you back. As you look back, sure enough, Madman and Arachna had come to gank you. Madman goes up to finish off the ranged creeps and try and make some gold after a failed gank. You detonate the Shadows, and madman takes heavy damage and (hopefully) dies.

Another situation, its late game and the enemy is pushing your base. You have managed to put a Shadow on each of the enemy heroes before they pushed. Right at the base of your tower, you have a snare set. The enemy runs in under your tower and begins to hammer on it. You move in and activate your snare pulling them all close together near you. Then you detonate your Shadows, your aura multiplying the damage, and then your teammates rush in to clean up the nasty mess you just made.

The mana cost is such that it won’t be precisely spammable, but still useable often enough to deal damage and farm with.


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Snare – Marsuvius forms a piece of himself into a spike and impales it into the ground where it awaits his signal.

Marsuvius points at the ground and his finger shoots into the ground with a soft thump.

When activated, the spike shoots up from the ground and impales everything nearby before pulling it towards the center focus.

The snare has almost no sight range, but if an enemy is standing on top of it they will be visible.
The snare has the ability Reversal, which sucks all nearby units together into a group and lowers their magic armor while removing the snare.
The snare can only be placed at a melee range, and quickly fades to invisibility.
The runes can be detonated by selecting them and using the ability, or by a detonate part of the ability on Marsuvius that automatically detonates the most recent rune.
Has a two second casting time at all levels.
Magic armor loss doesn’t stack!
Does 20 damage to each enemy target snared.

Level 1 – Maximum one rune placed, 1 magic armor lost.
Level 2 – Maximum two runes placed, 2 magic armor lost.
Level 3 - Maximum three runes placed, 3 magic armor lost.
Level 4 - Maximum four rune placed, 4 magic armor lost.

On detonation sucks all units in and lowers magic armor of enemies in a 400 radius.
Range- Melee range at all levels.
Manacost – 100/120/140/160
Cooldown – 40/35/30/25

Most of the uses for this ability are obvious, but I’m going to point out a couple that you might not have thought of.

Marsuvius is jungling and gets ganked by Ophelia. Ophelia moves her creeps in to attack, but Marsuivus was expecting this and activates a set snare that pulls a neutral creep spawn and Ophelia together. Unfortunately for Ophelia it’s a minotaur spawn that quickly stomps and stuns her and her creeps. Marsuvius detonates his Shadows planted in the minotaur spawn, and proceeds to gank Ophelia.

Marsuvius is laneing early game and has set up 3 snares all barely overlapping in his lane. One of his enemies in the lane steps into the range of the furthest snare and Marsuvius quickly chain detonates the snares resulting in his enemy and whatever creeps that were in the lane now standing at the base of the tower. Marsuvius moves in to finish the job.


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Diffusion– Enemies that come within range of Marsuvius are linked together by Marsuvius and spread damage between them.

All enemies in this auras effect take an extra damage % of the damage any of them take.
This doesn’t distribute damage from this ability.
This isn’t spirit link; It doesn’t share the damage, rather it deals fresh damage. The target still takes 100% of the incoming damage.
This ability works from both physical and magic damage, meaning splash damage would trigger it.

Level 1 –Spreads 1% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 2 – Spreads 2% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 3 - Spreads 3% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 4 – Spreads 4% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.

Manacost – 0/0/0/0
Cooldown - 0/0/0/0
Area -400 radius.

This is basically warlocks old link ability, but as an aura with no maximum number of targets.
This ability is part of what changes him from a nuker to a carry.
This ability really shines when used in conjunction with area of effect nukes or splash damage.


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Changeling(Ultimate) – Marsuvius draws in the essence of his victims, burning it to temporarily enhance himself.

Changeling is a passive ability that only affects Marsuvius.
Changeling adds damage every second, each tick having its own expiration time.
At the end of each second, this ability totals the damage that has happened since the start of the second, and takes 10 percent of it and adds it to Changelings current damage without replacing the old Changeling buffs that haven’t expired yet.
Includes both spell damage and physical damage.

Level 1 – 1 second duration on each buff
Level 2 – 2 second duration on each buff
Level 3 – 3 second duration on each buff

Oh wow, this is going to be tough to explain. I think I’m best off just going through the math.

Assuming you do 100 damage per second, and start with no current buff, and are attacking constantly for 10 seconds, this is basically what your damage would look like.

1st second, no extra damage – 100 damage.
2nd second, 10% of 100 damage extra, 110 damage, 1 buff active with 3 seconds left.
3rd second, 10% of 110 damage extra, 121 damage, 2 buffs active, one with 2 seconds one with 3 seconds.
4th second, 10% of 121 damage extra, 133 damage, 3 buffs active, one with 3 seconds, one with two one with one second.
5th second, first buff fades, 10% of 123 damage extra, 135 damage, 3 buffs active, one with 3 seconds, one with two one with one second.
6th second, second buff fades, 10% of 124 damage extra, 136 damage, 3 buffs active, one with 3 seconds, one with two one with one second.
7th second, third buff fades, 10% of 124 damage extra, 136 damage, 3 buffs active, one with 3 seconds, one with two one with one second.

Anyway, the end result is that you deal a lot of damage if you deal a lot of damage. Each point of damage from the area of effect aura adds to your total damage per second. The more you attack, the higher your damage gets as well, but at a much slower rate than the initial burst.


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(The most important part!)
Role – Marsuvius is a damage dealing carry with some interesting farming capabilities that can also support in early game ganks.


Anyway, that’s enough writing for now, probably too much. Hope you like him.
Adding color soon.

[Scythe]

All of the abilities are interesting ideas, although the last one seems to be a weakened version of Ursa's Fury Swipes with a time limit on stacks.

Shadow of Ruin is very neat, and would be a ton of fun with that lowish cooldown if it didn't have very low AoE and very high mana cost. Because of those two things, it is essentially a single target nuke every 10 seconds or an expensive way to farm creeps.

Snare is a nice remake of Vacuum from Dark Seer. The only thing I'd change about it is the 2 second cast time, which renders it very difficult to use in a team fight.

Diffusion is all right, but seems like a complicated, weaker version of Soul Reaper's aura. If you destroy a 2000 HP hero while another enemy hero stands next to him, he will only take 80 damage from the aura. If you kill 4 such 2000 HP heroes, the other hero (assuming all are in this 450 range) will take 320 damage. On the other hand, improving the percentage will make early game laning imbalanced because the creeps each wave take about (550 * 4 + 300) or more damage which will do 100 damage to each other unit with level 4 Diffusion as it is now. 100 damage each creep wave for free is not too bad.

Where Ursa had a bit of synergy with increased attack speed, a slow, and Fury Swipes, this hero has even less. He has no slow to allow him to continue to hit opponents and no IAS to buff his lowest stat (Agi). His passive is only useful in close combat team with many units around, at which point he is likely to get CC'ed since even the slightest slow (e.g., level 1 Unholy Shackles) will render his Ultimate useless and his aura often out of range.

[bittersweets]

Scythe, you fail so much at reading.

Shadow of Ruin stays permanently. It doesn't explode until you blow all of them.

Snare is a trap, and by trap I mean trap you bad, not place a trap and then blow it up immediately because you are such a boss that you can't set a real trap.

Diffusion and Soul Reapers aura are so dissimilar its disgusting. A 300 damage Defiler nuke that hits 10 units near Marsuvius would deal an extra 120 damage to each unit hit by the wave, for a total of 420 damage to each target hit by the wave and 120 for each target in range of his aura but not in hit by the wave. Meaning that this ability just did an extra 1200 damage, spread among 10 targets.

Your comparison with Ursa's damage buff is absurd. This ability works on all damage dealt, not just attack damage. Its not meant to be like ursa and eat a single target. Lets say you have 5 units shadowed. You pop the shadows for 1500 damage, that gets added to your damage stack, you suddenly have +150 damage for 3 seconds, on the first attack, the next damage buff would stack on top of that for even more damage.

Your failure to understand this hero is almost criminal.

One extra pointer to anyone reading this, the damage might seem extreme, but please remember that he has no holds, no slows, nothing to keep his enemies in place to kill, so he will be relying on teammates to keep him enabled and attacking the enemy.

Also, I gave up being nice after I got my votes, there is a reason I don't spend much time on forums. I just can't stand the people
I'll be nice again for at least the rest of this thread at moderator warning.

[Scythe]

Shadow of Ruin stays permanently. It doesn't explode until you blow all of them.
Yes, so you could try and put one on each enemy hero, which would take at least a minute to set up and cost 700 mana at level 4. This is very expensive and means you can't use the nuke without ruining your setup.


Snare is a trap, and by trap I mean trap you bad, not place a trap and then blow it up immediately because you are such a boss that you can't set a real trap.
It is still a melee range Dark Seer Vacuum that does no damage and takes 2 seconds to set up, meaning it is underpowered in a team fight unless you lay them without the opponent seeing you while you're defending or being chased. It's just not versatile.


Diffusion and Soul Reapers aura are so dissimilar its disgusting. A 300 damage Defiler nuke that hits 10 units near Marsuvius would deal an extra 120 damage to each unit hit by the wave, for a total of 420 damage to each target hit by the wave and 120 for each target in range of his aura but not in hit by the wave. Meaning that this ability just did an extra 1200 damage, spread among 10 targets.
Take a screenshot the next time 10 enemy units are within 450 range of any hero other than one who has blink. Even then, this damage is going to be done mostly to creeps unless the opponent is diving into you and Marsuvius is within 450 range of their creep wave and those heroes. Let's pray you don't die while the Defiler runs away after you've done your bonus 120 damage to each of those heroes who were close enough. Anyway, the aura is nice, it just needs more range and is overly (in my opinion) affected by creeps.


Your comparison with Ursa's damage buff is absurd. This ability works on all damage dealt, not just attack damage. Its not meant to be like ursa and eat a single target. Lets say you have 5 units shadowed. You pop the shadows for 1500 damage, that gets added to your damage stack, you suddenly have +150 damage for 3 seconds, on the first attack, the next damage buff would stack on top of that for even more damage.
Once again, this setup takes at the very least 40 seconds and costs 700 mana. Now you do all this and maximize the bonus damage, and you get +150 damage for 1 second at level 7, 2 seconds at level 11, and 3 seconds at level 16. This hero would be amazing with a blink, but as it stands all of this time and mana gives you a lackluster reward considering it is his ultimate. In comparison, Hammerstorm can pull +150 damage out for much longer than 3 seconds, doesn't require any setup, doesn't need to keep hitting anything, and he also has an AoE stun. I would suggest that his ult passively give him bonus %IAS and %MS based on his attack damage.


Your failure to understand this hero is almost criminal.
Your failure to understand this hero's flaws is even more felonious! :rolleyes:

Bottom line: Snare needs to be more versatile. Diffusal Aura needs more range (and in proportion maybe a lower %). Changeling needs to give him bonus AS/MS based on something (such as bonus damage).

[Sabre]

Bitter- I would recommend that you, if no where else, conduct yourself with more respect and decorum in the evaluation thread for your own hero they you are currently known for and displaying.

Anyways

An interesting partial interpretation of techies to say the least. I don't like the look of Shadow from the outset, it seems like a far too powerful skill that simply reducing damage won't fix.

Clarifications-

Do shadows detonate on the death of the unit? Do they grant vision?
Does the ult calculate all damage done or just damage done by auto attacking?

[bittersweets]

I have no respect for someone who doesn't deserve it.

Anyone who thinks this hero and techies have a common play style deserves no respect from me.

Shadows are removed when a unit dies. They don't grant vision. Nowhere does it say they grant vision, the gray would only appear when the hero is not hidden by fog, if that is what you were thinking. Its simply there as an indicator to help coordinate ganks.
Each unit can only have one shadow a time, a 300 damage small area nuke that can be used every 10 seconds would be a good comparison for balance, the only difference is you choose when it hits.

The person above you, however stupid they might be, seems to think shadow is underpowered. I propose that such a drastic difference in belief is evidence in favor of the abilities balanced state.
The ultimate calculates using all damage, including damage distributed by the aura.

How I act and my hero have nothing to do with each other, keep that in mind while you are passing judgment.

I'm done even responding to Scythe, he can't even understand how to set up a trap before a battle and then spring it after the battle starts.

[Scythe]

The trap should have 0 cast time.

I didn't say Shadow was underpowered, it is his Ultimate that is underpowered EVEN when Shadow is used with it. If anything, I agree that Shadow is overpowered. It can do a massive 600 damage to one target every 20 seconds at worst.

Let me reiterate the bottom line: Snare needs to be more versatile. Diffusal Aura needs more range (and in proportion maybe a lower %). Changeling needs to give him bonus AS/MS based on something (such as bonus damage).

[bittersweets]

God do you even read before you start saying stupid crap?

Why don't you reread how shadow works?
Why don't you read my example for snare?
Why don't you read my post about why changeling isn't overpowered even with its huge potential for bonus damage?
Why don't you just stop typing and go troll someone else?
There is no way anyone can be as stupid as you are without trying.

Why in the world do you think you aren't stupid?
Why in the world don't you want to improve yourself?
Why in the world don't you understand English?

[Sabre]

I'm done even responding to Scythe, he can't even understand how to set up a trap before a battle and then spring it after the battle starts.

Nicely done. That vow lasted what, seven whole minutes?

A 300 small AoE nuke is not a good comparison for this skill, since its design inherently encourages grouping them together for mass use. The exact scenario you describe in your explanation of Shadows outlines its unbalanced nature- you should not be able to use a skill to remotely kill someone like that, especially on a hero with other such functionality.

[bittersweets]

Thanks, I have trouble ignoring such people =(

I understand your concerns, but if you spend 50 seconds setting up a trap like that, it will do some damage. If your opponents just let you set it all up, they almost deserve to get exploded. Furthermore, 150 area is so small that even if 5 enemies were pulled together with a trap, each explosion would only hit like 3 of the 5. You are arguing that it would be overpowered with out actually being able to try it or a skill of a similar nature because none exist. Besides, even in a perfectly ideal situation like I described in my examples, other heroes could still do a better job with less effort I think.

Soul stealer for example has 900 damage in area of effect nukes not counting his ultimate. Lets make an ideal situation to maximize damage to heroes. Tempest just caught 5 people in an ulti, soulstealer runs in and drops 3 300 aoe nukes hitting all 5 heroes with each one. Thats 1500 damage a nuke for a total of 4500 damage. You might argue that marsuvius's situation is less situational or more likely, but what are the odds that all 5 enemies will have a shadow on them at once, the odds that they will all be in range of a single trap at once, the odds that you don't get stunned or nuked to death when you run up to apply your aura to them, the odds that you can actually finish them.

My example involving setting the shadows on allied creeps is even more out there, how in the world are you going to keep a creep alive for the time it takes for a shadow to mature? I mean one yes, maybe. Maybe even two of them, but any more then that and its just terribly unlikely.

Sure its easy to say that soulstealer can deal 4500 damage without even using his ultimate, in practice a favorable situation needs to be crafted with teamwork and maybe a little bit of luck.

[dezi]

Very interesting hero. Seems hard to play but i like the concept.

[Scythe]

God do you even read before you start saying stupid crap?

Why don't you reread how shadow works?
Why don't you read my example for snare?
Why don't you read my post about why changeling isn't overpowered even with its huge potential for bonus damage?
Why don't you just stop typing and go troll someone else?
There is no way anyone can be as stupid as you are without trying.

Why in the world do you think you aren't stupid?
Why in the world don't you want to improve yourself?
Why in the world don't you understand English?

I would appreciate it if you made arguments instead of insulting me like a child. For example, you could tell me why this hero is a viable pick over Hammerstorm in any situation.

Your examples for Snare are laughable. In one, Ophelia and at least 2 of her creeps must all be walking close to each other, you have to predict where she goes long in advance and pray she goes close enough to the Snare(s), you have to set up multiple traps unless you expect her to walk within 400 range of the Minotaur, you can't kill off the Minotaur if you want the stun, and for all this you get a Minotaur stun! In the other, you spend 1.5 minutes and 420 mana for what is basically a Devourer Meat Hook that deals no damage. Granted, this second method of using Snare is nice mid/late game, but it is best used defensively because of the exhaustive setup time and cost and the melee range of cast showing your opponents where you are putting them (maybe a very short cast time would help).

You probably didn't read my comparison to Hammerstorm, so I'll tell you again. Hammerstorm's Ultimate can pull a consistent +150 damage out for much longer than 3 seconds, doesn't require any setup, doesn't need to keep hitting anything, and he also has an AoE stun. Marsuvius requires setup or his aura + team nukes to get to +150 damage yet has no disable and must continue to do impossible amounts of damage to maintain this.

As for your comparison with Soulstealer, Shadow is targetted while Soulstealer's nuke requires aim and can be dodged in most situations. Am I wrong in saying that you can do 600 damage to a single target every 20 seconds? Place a Shadow, wait until cooldown is over, detonate, place another, detonate.

Let me reiterate the bottom line: Snare needs to be more versatile. Diffusal Aura needs more range (and in proportion maybe a lower %). Changeling needs to give him bonus AS/MS based on something (such as bonus damage).

Don't worry, you can post critically on my hero should you feel the need. Just keep in mind I have never voted no on any of your heroes.

[bittersweets]

I should just ignore you, but it is terribly hard.

To deal 600 damage to a single target with Shadow, it would take 80 seconds under almost every circumstance.
Moon Queen on the other hand in 80 seconds without using her ultimate or attacking the enemy can deal 3900 damage from a huge range.

Snare is more versatile then vacuum because you can set multiple snares up.
You can trigger them one after another to keep a large group of units in one place, and lower their magic armor.
If you are using it at melee range during a battle, you are using it wrong.

Marsuvius can consistently pull out much much higher damage bonuses then Hammerstorm with Changeling.

I would appreciate it if you actually read the hero and found these things out for yourself.

Furthermore, I disliked your hero so much that I declined to comment on it or vote because it is a lost cause.

What you see as an insult, was a series of genuine questions that you answered not at all.

Finally, ALL NUMBERS ARE NOT SET IN STONE. DON'T F'ING POST ABOUT THEM YOU ILLITERATE SCUM

[Scythe]

Maybe it will help if I leave out all of my opinions.


To deal 600 damage to a single target with Shadow, it would take 80 seconds under almost every circumstance.
Moon Queen on the other hand in 80 seconds without using her ultimate or attacking the enemy can deal 3900 damage from a huge range.

Quoting you:

Level 4 - 300 max damage.

On detonation each Shadow affects an area 150 in radius.
Range- 700 at all levels.
Manacost – 80/100/120/140
Cooldown – 10/10/10/10

If you put it on 2 enemy heroes who are laning together, you can instantly do 600 damage to EACH if you just wait until they are next to each other. Taking 80 seconds doesn't mean the 600 damage is spread over 80 seconds, so it's like you saying Pyromancer's Ultimate takes 90 seconds to do 675 damage.


If you are using it at melee range during a battle, you are using it wrong.

Quoting your hero description:
The snare can only be placed at a melee range, and quickly fades to invisibility.
The runes can be detonated by selecting them and using the ability, or by a detonate part of the ability on Marsuvius that automatically detonates the most recent rune.
Has a two second casting time at all levels.


What you see as an insult, was a series of genuine questions that you answered not at all.

Quoting you:
There is no way anyone can be as stupid as you are without trying.

Why in the world do you think you aren't stupid?
Why in the world don't you want to improve yourself?
Why in the world don't you understand English?

[NinjaPants]

Guys lets try to shift all this hate around, and just focus on the hero. (No indirect passive hate either!)

(Let's not worry about who started it and whatnot. No finger-pointing here.) :]

I don't want to be forced into giving infractions. :[

[bittersweets]

http://fallacyfiles.org/quotcont.html
The fallacy you committed 3 times.

From the time you place the ability to the time you can activate it for full damage, there is 30 seconds. Even placing it on 2 heroes and hoping they end up near each other 30 seconds later, its 10 seconds to cast it on the second one, and then a 30 second wait until you can explode it for full damage. This is entirely different then pyromancers ultimate, you are only counting cooldown, I'm counting the abilities effect delay.

I'm sorry that you can't understand that the snares don't automatically activate after you set one.

I'm sorry that you can't answer those honest questions, because apparently you don't know the answers yourself.

What is the difference between cruelty and stupidity?
Intent and only intent.
Both result in pain and suffering for everyone around them.
Since cruelty is not allowed on this forum, we should give an infraction to scythe.

[Anghkor]

Folks, calm down.

First, from a neutral perspective, I'm just going to say a few things to both of you:

@bittersweets - Tone down the aggression, please. If someone doesn't understand your hero as well as you do, and makes a mistake, there is no need to turn to anger and respond heatedly. I'm aware that Scythe misread a few key points about your hero, but that's no need to start a flame war. This is an evaluation, expect to be Judged by all types of posters; whether they conduct their evaluation with a professional nature, or with the tact of a common forum troll (generally speaking, not aimed @ Scythe), I ask you to do your best to and hold on to your temper.

As for Sabre's comment about Marsuvius loosely relating to Goblin Techies from DotA, he's not as incorrect as you seem to think; at least for two of his four abilities. Shadow of Ruin being somewhat similar to a unit-targeted version of Land Mines, while Snare is somewhat similar to Stasis Trap. While far from identical, the similarities ARE there. No need to brutalize his observation simply because you didn't initially see it.

@Scythe - You bring up some good points, but like I said to bittersweets, tone down the aggression. Yes, this is an evaluation and you have the right to put forward your honest thoughts, but please try and do it in a more professional, less antagonizing way. If the creator of a suggestion contradicts what he/she may have noted in their post, perhaps they simply wrote it down or explained their idea incorrectly. You have the right to disagree with their idea, but there is no need to attempt to tear them down for making a mistake. To set things straight, you do have the wrong idea about Shadow of Ruin. As bittersweets stated in his last post, each Shadow gains damage over the course of 30 seconds. Each Shadow is not created with maximum damage, so instead of becoming a standard 300 damage nuke, it generally becomes a more strategic skill, requiring advanced map awareness & pre-planning.

Anyway, enough of that. On to my initial review:

I'm going to have to start this off by disagreeing with your ideal role of Marsuvius. You say he is intended to be a carry hero? It's tough to see how that would be easily accomplished. Currently, he feels a like his role is too undefined. He has aspects of a carry, for sure (Diffusion & Changeling), but his first (Shadow of Ruin) and second (Snare) skills seem like pure support.

Secondly, as a melee hero, with primarily melee-range skills, he will have extremely weak lane control. You may argue that Shadow of Ruin is his form of lane control, but I disagree. The only way to recieve decent damage from this skill on a non-hero is to run back and pre-apply a Shadow to a creep or two before they reach the opposing wave. Other than that, you can apply Shadows to yourself, your lane partner, and one to each opponent in your lane. The only effective method to use this would be to prep each Shadow, wait out the duration for maximum effectiveness, and then rush with everything you have, activating all Shadows when within range. Since snares can only be applied from melee range, AND have a lengthy cast time, they are useless in a lane. As is your aura, against any decent player with a ranged hero, who should be able to kite you before you can do damage. This hero is doomed to be dominated early game, and without an actual disable, he's going to be COMPLETELY reliant on both items and allies to be moderatly useful.


Here's a "quick" breakdown of his skills:

Shadow of Ruin - Overall, it's an interesting concept. A ranged nuke that has delayed damage with a build-up time upon cast, but can be activated at any time by Marsuvius. However, this skill is easily counter-able. If attempted to cast in-lane on an allied or enemy creep, a decent player will immediately focus said Shadowed unit until it dies. Since you noted that a Shadow doesn't activate upon death, the skill is immediately denied it's full potential.

This skill is also easily countered by a simple Lifetube, or similar cheap regeneration items. A Lifetube for example, heals 150 health in 30 seconds, which is the rate of maturity for a Shadow. That's half of the damage potential @ level 4 negated by a single item, and that's before reductions, or secondary sources of regeneration are calculated. So as an offensive nuke, a basic click & cast strategy is useless. You're practically FORCED to go out of your way to pre-plan your offensive abilities, rendering you completely vulnerable to what MOBA games are both famous for: unexpected surprises & ganks.

All-in-all, I'm not really a fan. Yes, it's a skill-based spell, but it's overly reliant on your opponents being foolish. This is especially problematic if Shadow of Ruin has a visible debuff animation like you are initially suggesting. While other tactical skills like Devourer's Guttling Hook and Valkyrie's Javelin of Light are best used when applied in strategic positions... they also have the potential to be effective in unpredictable situations. Your Shadow of Ruin cannot. It's a pure initiator, and for that, I have to say I don't like it.

Possible changes for a future version:
When Shadow of Ruin is cast on a non-hero unit, the target instantly dies, dealing 'x' damage in a 200 AoE. (The shadow briefly inhabits the body, but cannot be contained by the simple vessel, resulting in the devastating expulsion of the Shadow)

Snare - Ugh, that last one was lengthy... I'll try and keep this one shorter.

A couple clarifications are required:


Why only limited to 4 Snares? The magic armor reduction does not stack, and it does a minuscule amount of damage... so why are you limited to 4?
Why is the mana cost so high? Like I noted in the previous point, this skill barely does anything by itself, so why the hefty price to cast?
Why is there such a lengthy casting time? Sure, it forces users to preset these traps, but why is it necessary? Honestly, I don't think it is.
Why is the cast range limited to melee? It would be much more efficient and provide solid synergy with Shadow of Ruin if it could be cast from a distance (similar to DotA's Lanaya when placing her Traps)

Overall, again... not really a huge fan. It's a trap version of (DotA's) Darkseer's Vacuum, with a much smaller AoE, and negligable damage. It's extremely situational, and in those rare situations it CAN be synergistic with Shadow of Ruin... but generally it's a mediocre skill as it is.

Possible changes for a future version:
If you keep the cap of 4 Snares maximum, add damage & a movement snare to the activation of Reversal. Perhaps something like 60/90/120/150 magic damage & 12/20/28/36% movement speed reduction for 2 seconds. If you decide to add more Snares (I'd say cap it out at 8-10), leave out the damage but keep the movement slow (or a variant of it).
Diffusion - Without being able to test the numbers in-game, I like it. I only suggest that damage dealt by Diffusion is immune to further applications of Diffusion.
For example, if you hit 4 targets with a fully matured Shadow of Ruin

Initial damage = 300 per target (ignoring reductions in this example)
Extra Diffusion damage per target = 300x0.04 = 12
So 12 damage x 3 extra targets = 36 damage
Total damage taken for each target = 336 damage

Again, I like it. Unique to HoN, and will be great in team fights. The numbers may have to be tweaked upon testing, but whether that change is a buff, or a nerf... I have yet to determine.

Changeling - First reaction to this skill: "Meh." Honestly, it's just another super situational skill with limited synergy to his other spells. Yes, the damage gain works decently for him, but he still has very weak kill power. As a melee hero with no mobility or disables... he's going to be completely dependent on items & allied heroes in order to do anything at all. That said, a couple clarifications are required:


Is the bonus damage dependent on only damage dealt by Marsuvius? Or by any damage in the area?

How large is the AoE? Or it global (Assuming Shadows can be detonated globally)?

What is the damage type of the bonus damage? Simply added physical damage, or magical, or (hopefully not) pure?

Overall, while it's a solid damage-dealing skill... it's near useless with his current skill set. Without some sort of snare, he can deal infinite damage but he won't be able to kill any decent player without help. I like the skill, but within the current hero I feel it's fairly useless.

Welp, that about does it. If you actually read the whole thing, huge props. If not... well, I don't really care. At this point, I'm leaning towards a no, but if you feel otherwise, you have several days to change my mind. Have at it!

Sparknotes:


Extremely weak early game, will be easily dominated by a strong lane
Shadow of Ruin is overly situational, forced pre-planning creates vulnerability to the unknown.
Snare has the similar issues as the above for Shadow of Ruin.
Diffusion has a solid concept, but the numbers may need some work
Changeling is another solid skill, but some sort of disable might be a better option.

Oh, a final opinion: Marsuvius might be better off as an Intelligence hero, either melee or ranged. I think it would be much more effective to model him around becoming more of a supportive hero, as opposed to a carry. That's all I'll say on that, but think about it.

[bittersweets]

You told me that you didn't think he was a carry and then proceeded to say he had a weak early game.

Shadow of Ruin is easily tweaked by changing the maturity rate.Also, you can pre-plan without putting yourself in danger.
Snare is the way it is because you can chain them to move large numbers of units a long distance.
I did a lot of work on the numbers for diffusion, you aren't considering how well it multiplies area damage.
Changeling is his primary damage dealing ability, what makes him a carry.

The idea is to set up shadows on possibly unrelated units like neutrals or preferrably the enemy team, pull them all together with a snare so your team can start aoeing them more effectively and then blow your shadows and run in with your +1000 damage and proceed to sit on the enemy team.

He has such an exteme damage potential, adding a slow to snare would make him overpowered. Either way, I don't see any way you could know exactly how it would play out any better then I would.

He needs his items to prevent disables, maximize his damage with ias, give him splash, survive a team battle. Once he has everything he needs, he can carry very strongly.

He doesn't have any disables of his own for a reason, if you actually did the math on his ultimate or considered what happens when you snare 5 shadowed units together...

If anything, changing the cooldown and maturity rate on shadows to make them more flexible is possibly the only change I would consider.

Also, you seem to forget you aren't voting on numbers, you are voting on the concept. If the concept isn't impossible to implement and would be interesting to play, you are obligated to vote yes.

I'll spend the next little bit going through each of your negative comments and attempting to refute them, as well as clarifying the stuff you asked about -
Shadow of Ruin is not countered by a lifetube, a normal nuke would be, but Shadow isn't. This is because you choose when you blow it up, and a lifetube can't regen damage that hasn't happened yet.
You seem to think shadow can only be used to harass an enemy, in fact it is used in an opposite manner. You will only be exploding a shadow when you want to kill the enemy.
Like I said, you don't have to make yourself vulnerable to place a shadow, I don't know why you thought as much.
Shadow relies absolutely not at all on your enemy being foolish, 2 enemies with matured shadows on top of a snare is 600 damage instantly, and with a magic armor penalty for even more effect, this is unavoidable unless both units stay away from each other. During a push, that is impossible.
Shadow isn't purely an initiator, it can also be used as a finisher similar to zeus's ultimate, it can be used to play mind games with the opponent for example, preventing a push because there are shadows on every hero, or making a melee hero avoid killing a creep with an unmatured shadow, placing a shadow on an allied hero causing the enemy hero to avoid them etc.
Snare has a 400 aoe, it says that in the skill.
Snare is terribly powerful, you can chain them to move units past towers. The magic armor reduction is also a very powerful thing in itself, especially with the AoE teams that are popular. The difficulty in use is to balance that out.
People would use it as an area support spell if you removed the trapping parts of it, and quite frankly that isn't as fun as setting up a trap for your enemies to fall into. It is a matter of opinion, and thus shouldn't be a part of your judging.
The numbers on Diffusion are carefully pruned, I don't think you understand it very well.
Changeling isn't situational.
When used right, you can easily get gigantic numbers without effort.
It is added to his regular attack, not an extra attack or a special effect like bash.
AoE? Are we even talking about the same skill? This really makes me question your qualification to judge my hero.
Any damage that would give credit for a kill to marsuvius(this includes diffusion) would count for this skill.
He isn't a supportive hero, he is a hero that relies on support to maximize his potential.

Phew. Long counter-post.

[Anghkor]

I'm working in the morning, so I don't have the time at the moment to dispute most of this. However:
You told me that you didn't think he was a carry and then proceeded to say he had a weak early game.
Yes, I did. You're saying that any hero that fails early game is forced to fall into the "carry" position? I disagree. However sure, as you this hero currently stands he's best suited to play a carry, but ONLY after farming for the majority of the game. My point was that if he skills were re-oriented to a supporting role, he would have much more potential through the entirety of a match.

Shadow of Ruin is not countered by a lifetube, a normal nuke would be, but Shadow isn't. This is because you choose when you blow it up, and a lifetube can't regen damage that hasn't happened yet.
My point was that it isn't spammable unlike a regular nuke. A common damage dealing nuke deals 200-300 damage with a 6 to 15 second cooldown. This can be repeated frequently, resulting in easy abuse since it's extremely hard to keep up your health even with moderate regeneration. Your skill however, while the potential burst is high if applied perfectly (very situational), is easily countered by regeneration due to it's maturity time post-cast. Since you can only have one Shadow on a target, abuse isn't really possible against a decent opponent.

Either way, I don't see any way you could know exactly how it would play out any better then I would.
You're right, I don't. But in all honestly, neither do you. A hero on paper is completely different from a hero in-game. What might look and feel balanced originally, may be rediculously broken once implemented.

Also, you seem to forget you aren't voting on numbers, you are voting on the concept. If the concept isn't impossible to implement and would be interesting to play, you are obligated to vote yes.
Actually at this point, while initial numbers shouldn't be the primary reason why a suggestion is denied, they ARE a large factor in a decision. At least for mine.

AoE? Are we even talking about the same skill? This really makes me question your qualification to judge my hero.
Condescending talk like this really doesn't help your chances in getting positive votes. However, if you actually read what I said in context, I was asking whether or not the damage was calculated based on the damage only YOU deal, or if it incorporated all allied damage. IF it was allied damage, I was asking how large the AoE would be on the detection.

Overall, I may have misunderstood a few points, but your heated reaction was extremely unnecessary. I'll think on it, but still leaning towards no. I'm done for tonight.

PS. I suggest you work on your attitude before someone decides to fix it for you.

[crayze]

This hero is designed rather poorly.

Shadows cost far too much mana with far too much ramp up for the gain. Granted they are good nukes if applied along with Snare. However, they are simply impractical. By the time you spend the time applying Shadows to the correct targets, setting snares in perfect locations, waiting for the enemy team to push, triggers snares in the right sequence, detonating Shadows at the correct time, and having your teammates engage, your team will be initiated on by their stunners and you will be unable to do, well, anything.

Your hero essentially does what Tempest does with Blink + Black Hole, but taking ten times as long to set it up, has about the same cooldown, cannot contribute in any other ways to pushing, earlier hero killing, or teamfighting (detonating shadows ruins your perfect combo thus adding to setup time and snares cannot be placed in combat, so once your four "perfect snares" are down you have 2 weak passives for fighting, or you can replace a snare or waste your perfect shadow setup), and has an awful early game in exchange for a barely passable late game.

Your hero has absolutely no lane presence. With a 30 second ramp up time on your only nuke and the fact that snares aren't awfully powerful for the mana cost, especially early when you're already dumping massive amounts of mana just to use shadows (if you use them at all), your hero gets absolutely torn up in lane. Literally worse-than-Chronos torn up. And Chronos has a far better late game than this hero.

Setting up the hero's main combo is poorly designed as well. Between around level 7 and level 13, teamfighting doesn't happen in big fights. Your options are as follows -- lay shadows, use shadows as delayed 300 damage nukes (zues-esque fashion), perhaps use some snares to help initiate on 1-2 man teams. Overall your presence during this phase is extremely weak EVEN IF YOU USE YOUR SKILLS - you don't have the mana to spam your nukes, you don't have the mana to spam snares, your snare isn't even that powerful unless you can stack Shadow explosions, and there are no 5v5 teamfights. YOur other option is as follows: Stack shadows and let them sit until the 5v5 teamfights start. Prepare with "perfect snare chains" as you call them. And then just wait.

If you do the second, you are literally a nonfactor from level 1 to level 16, and even then you contribute to just one teamfight. If you do the first, you have a big problem -- teamfight starts, you don't have shadows up (because you've been using them). If you want to apply a Shadow and your team is next to you, they initiate on you and you have no shadows up, you're useless once again. If you want to apply a Shadow and your team isn't next to you, they initiate on and kill you easily because you have no survivability tools and because you had no lane presence you have no items.

If you went for the second method (of waiting with your initial shadows), you blow them once, perhaps win one teamfight because of it, and then you're stuck in the same situation. And you've literally given up level 1 through level 14. Literally. Given. Up.

Now lets say somehow you survive to late game. YOU ARE NOT FARMED. Let me repeat. You will never, ever, ever, be farmed at late game with the awful kind of presence this hero has in lane. He is literally a joke easy gank, and all he can do is detonate all his shadows (ruining his setup) or add a shadow to an enemy, perhaps detonate a snare that he's placed and move the enemy a whole 400 units (ooh great escape WAIT NO). He probably is -3 levels from everyone else with a pair of boots and a bracer. Great. So how is he going to farm late game? Oh right that uber ultimate. OH wait because he's a nonfactor with no items he dies easily to disables because there's no way he's going to farm a BKB. That is assuming that your team has enough AoE to Diffuse enough damage or you detonate enough shadows to do enough damage to actually build up your ult.

Overall, the hero is just plain bad. Sorry =/.

[bittersweets]

Yes, I did. You're saying that any hero that fails early game is forced to fall into the "carry" position? I disagree. However sure, as you this hero currently stands he's best suited to play a carry, but ONLY after farming for the majority of the game. My point was that if he skills were re-oriented to a supporting role, he would have much more potential through the entirety of a match.


Name a carry that doesn't need to farm up their items to carry.
Like most carries, he will become moderately effective as soon as he finishes his first major item, by the time he finishes his second major item he will be very effective.




My point was that it isn't spammable unlike a regular nuke. A common damage dealing nuke deals 200-300 damage with a 6 to 15 second cooldown. This can be repeated frequently, resulting in easy abuse since it's extremely hard to keep up your health even with moderate regeneration. Your skill however, while the potential burst is high if applied perfectly (very situational), is easily countered by regeneration due to it's maturity time post-cast. Since you can only have one Shadow on a target, abuse isn't really possible against a decent opponent.


You missed the part where I said it isn't used to harass, but rather to help kill a target. Most nukes aren't used more then once a battle.



You're right, I don't. But in all honestly, neither do you. A hero on paper is completely different from a hero in-game. What might look and feel balanced originally, may be rediculously broken once implemented.


So what point is there for you to make these arguments?



Actually at this point, while initial numbers shouldn't be the primary reason why a suggestion is denied, they ARE a large factor in a decision. At least for mine.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that there were no limits forcing you to be reasonable with your judge voting. The reason numbers aren't a large factor is because its impossible to play test and balance them out perfectly, so anyone saying a number is wrong is basically saying, "I don't actually know whether or not it will be off, however, despite the fact that my belief is entirely groundless and unprovable I still intend to express it."




Condescending talk like this really doesn't help your chances in getting positive votes. However, if you actually read what I said in context, I was asking whether or not the damage was calculated based on the damage only YOU deal, or if it incorporated all allied damage. IF it was allied damage, I was asking how large the AoE would be on the detection.


If you can't judge the hero in front of you rather then the person who suggested it, I would like to demand your removal from the panel. A judge who can't remain impartial does not deserve their power.
Proximity is not context especially in a bulleted list.




Overall, I may have misunderstood a few points, but your heated reaction was extremely unnecessary. I'll think on it, but still leaning towards no. I'm done for tonight.

PS. I suggest you work on your attitude before someone decides to fix it for you.


This is mild for me, restrained even. Lots of people have tried to fix my attitude, but their illogical approach invariably failed. Furthermore, I believe that your conduct is inappropriate for someone attempting to command some sort of authority. If you aren't wrong, simply prove how rather then making a thinly veiled threat over something entirely unrelated.

In response to crayze, there isn't a single thing you said that can't be fixed with a number adjustment. I am however grateful that you actually found some of the flaws. I noticed them maybe 50 votes in, but decided that since I had already said that numbers don't mean anything in the hero information, it would be a waste of time to change them all. In particular, I think the cooldown and manacost and maturation rate on shadows should be lowered, and the channel time on snare lowered to half a second, so properly timed, you could use it in a more flexible activate fashion. Also, lowering the mana cost on both of these abilities to encourage spam would be a good step towards giving him a stronger more flexible early and middle game. Another thought would be increasing the cast range on shadows would be another needed buff.

I was so worried about making him overpowered with potential damage that I overshot my numbers a little bit.

All in all, I would say that you overreacted more then a little to the flaws you did find.

Its starting to irritate me however that people can't ignore the numbers and actually cast their vote on the concept. A monkey could eventually come up with them working numbers; a playtesting monkey could come up with them faster. Leave the playtesting for the people who can do it, and vote on a concept please.

[NinjaPants]

Hellos. My analysis is not going to be super gigantic; I am sorry for the disappointment. :[

I like his skills; they synchronize well together. Snare has some good pro-skill mechanics in addition to what it does. (I can further explain this if wanted, but I'm sure bittersweets already understands why I say this.)

He seems like a hero that has huge burst damage potential.
His ult however is currently (possibly) way too strong. I'm not sure what type of damage it does (I may have missed it), but I suggest that it does magic damage. Otherwise, the burst damage he does through his spells (that can be countered by a barrier idol) would then be transfered to his ult (I'm assuming it does physical damage) and reduce the effectiveness of barrier idol.
(Barrier idol would still be a counter in this case since it would nullify the damage he does through spells, thus lowering the power of his ult, but if Changeling attacks first, then GG.)

(Likewise, I think his third spell should do magic damage as well. Just add a small clause that it can't trigger itself and go into a feedback loop.)

That's pretty much it, and since it's a pretty small change (or may not be a change at all), I see no reason not to Thump Up this.

Counters: (Just because I felt like listing them. Not really anything judging related.)

Disables can counter his ult. ;} (Hero counter)
Barrier idol can counter his burst-damage. (Item counter)
Once his spells are on cooldown, and his ult's buffs are gone, he's easy pickings.

Seems fair to me. :]

Also, it's true that numbers shouldn't be judged, but I think they're more of a reference for the general gist of the idea. This may or may not have been what Ankhor ment, but that's my stance on the subject. ;}

Ex. A 0.05 second stun would just be an interrupt, while a 1.70 second stun has a hugely different purpose.

[bittersweets]

Thank you ninjapants <3

[Zoddy]

Okey, after reading all of this topic, yea ... go me.

Concept 9/10 (no one is perfect :P )

Skill synergy 8/10 (all through trap synchronizes with Ruin it doesn't synchronize with any other of your skills.)

Concerning numbers, i know you don't really care about them, but there are people that do as they give additional feel for a hero and (in this case) his playstyle.

Tweaking of numbers, mostly lowering maturing of ruin of shadows to 5-10 secs instead of initial 30 would be recommended, cause that than makes it a nuke with 300 damage but (lets say) 5 second delay and 10 second cooldown, which is workable compared to Pyro's Dragonfire which got 1 sec delay 280 damage and a stun. Change stun for detonation whenever you want and get a mana cost to be same as you wrote it (140 if i am not mistaken) or anything around this lines should be okey for Ruin.

Traps in my opinion if you are going to limit yourself onto 4, should have range of 600 while leaving 0.5 casting time, so you can put them in front of you and that way they could be used as a "slow" in right situations. Which i believe makes everyone that replied in this thread happy, cause you can still put them all over the place using intuition/tactic and juke/gang but you can still use them somewhat effectively for chasing if circumstances are right.

About 3rd skill - with 400 range it won't touch most of the enemies ranged heroes cause part from moon queen and slither no one got under 600 range (i could be wrong, and if i am, i am sorry). With that said, imho (i know it doesn't stand for much) range should be larger, lets say 600 so if you position yourself right it gets all of them. Cause with range of 400 on trap too, you probably won't be able to get them all tightly to each other for your 3rd to function - **** i've even seen tempest that doesn't catch all of enemies with his Ult. With that % should be changed as well, to hum, dunno 0.5/1/2/3 perhaps or a bit lower.

Ulti, ah now we come to the completly unknown factor of this hero, so i can't go math wise about it, cause it all depends on how you do in a game concerning items, your level compared to enemies level and so on cause there is no equivalent for this in HoN and even Ursa was using his hp and not damage dealt. But as it stands this guy is a pure carry from your perspective of view, and i can see it as such very nicely. But there is a problem - most of the melee carries got escape mechanics or ways to catch up to the enemy (chronos leap, madman's stalk,Dark Lady leap, etc.). As such without tweaking this guys ulti a must on him would be either nullifire blade or hack and slash, but having a definite item on a hero is never a good idea, so tweaking ulti to give less % to damage and also add some minor yet important + or % to MS and/or IAS too would be a great option.

Sorry for a late reply concerning numbers this far into heroes creation (as its already in evaluation period) and sorry for a wall of text lol

Zoddy

[Behbista]

First after reading all this text, Bittersweet i've only really read bitter from you. Since you brought up fallacies up please stay away from personal attacks and red herrings. It really detracts from the reviewing and gets in the way of honest evaluations.

That being said I like the feel of the hero, or maybe I like what i imagine the hero could become but he has no strong nitch in his current layout. This hero imo would be much better used for support/tank than carry with the shadows, traps and aura, his ult seems out of place.

I didn't see a cast range just the 700 explosion range for the shadows. A way to providing shadow of ruin a lot of support and utility (assuming you didn't intend this from the beginning) would be to give it infinite cast range (obviously would need vision and new backstory), and reduce the timer from 30s (way too long) to 15s or reduce dmg even farther and give it an even shorter set up time (say 200dmg, 5 seconds) this would allow the hero to be a strong team member early game even if he has a very weak lane presence or to set up a stronger lane presence by casting shadow on one of his creeps as they spawn.

Trap spell needs work either more like lanaya's traps so the hero can actually slow his target or more like techie traps, or keep them as they are and do tweak #2 to shadows infinite cast range, instant cast with 1-2 second delay before spell action (think invoker's fire blast spell) to either cause instant damage to affected units and echo damage or seed the targets in the location with the shadow debuff (damage may need to be lowered again though maybe not with the delay on how long it takes to prepair). But the last tweak doesnt help much in late game... and you will definitly not want to cast this as you initiate.

Eyeballing it, aura should be bigger but lower numbers to help somewhat with lane presence but maybe not - it would be strong if one could hang out near the creeps and bleed damage to the heroes if they are in range. As long as the aura range and numbers were tweaked during testing it looks like a fun ability, though perhaps way op if bother friendly and hostile damage gets splashed. Keeping balance between OMG OVER POWERED and so weak its laughable will be very delicate.

Ult needs to change. Ult has a lot of push capability if they get a ruined axe, so I suppose it can be used for pushing, but I don't see this character as a carry. Aura wants him to be in the fray (tank trait) shadow and trap should be support with their current set up, ult wants to be carry.

[Namu1]

While this hero is innovative, clever, conceptually pleasing, and quite possibly the most interesting hero I've seen so far (excluding a few), I've got to say this (which I hope a lot of you realize): this hero radiates the need for patience. Setting up your spikes in important choke-holds, infecting a couple people for a huge spike, and, with a little help from your friends, a complete team-wipe. The numbers will be able to be adjusted, I know, in case of under/over-powered skills. Apart from this, I'm slightly impartial, but I am leaning to Yes. I really like the idea.

The Idea, mind you. Just the idea.

[Snow_blinded]

I'm confused.

I cant decide which one is the bigger fail, your attitude or your hero :s

Anywho, I think it would be more appropriate for him to have 'Vacuum' from dark seer than this crappy trappy ability. My point bieng, what does he do when he comes in solo contact with a hero, 2 heroes, him with a friend and 2 heroes? He cant use the trap as that achieves no purpose in single fight and takes 2 secs to load. No point in using the shadows as they will need to mature to be effective ~ 30 secs. I'm sure he can dish good dmg with his ulti, but just autoatk? :s

IMHO, there should at least be one actively usable ability on a hero. As it is, your hero will just roam the map putting up traps and shadows, hoping you get that perfect situation where you can pull off a combo. Much like ummmmm.... dare I say, techies? Awesome if you can get that perfect situation, absolutely crap otherwise.

[ForTheSwarm]

Level 1 –Spreads 1% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 2 – Spreads 2% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 3 - Spreads 3% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.
Level 4 – Spreads 4% of the damage taken to each unit in the area.

So it's a super-weakened form of Mercurial's (who is about to be ported) aura?

[bittersweets]

If you don't understand the skill, don't bother posting in this thread, post in the hero itself.

[Sheapy1]

At this stage of suggestions, you really have to judge the numbers. Concept alone won't get you to the top. It's like getting good at something. You have the initial idea down, which is great, but it's going to take a lot of minor tweaks and revisions to achieve what it has to be. It's easy to pass, but hard to excel with.

Shadow of Ruin- Max damage after 30 seconds with a 10 second cooldown? At most parts of the game, the mana cost is going to prevent you from spamming this especially since your hero is "str".

Early Game- At early game, 30 seconds to maturity combined with a hefty mana cost makes you quite useless in your lane. You have no presence. 300 damage every 30 seconds? Seems quite weak. You can't place the shadows on the creeps as they die too quickly, so the only other place is the heroes. The most that you could probably get out of this skill would be a single 400 damage nuke if you manage to vacuum them.

Mid Game- You can't push with this skill. Just face it. Once again it's the numbers that impairs this. 10 second CD with a 30 second maturity time. You could probably deal out more damage auto attacking in that time than planting shadows, but your mana growth will probably only allow 3 shadows before you're drained. You can't use this for ganking unless you plan on a hero farming the same creep wave for roughly 1 minute in a lane.

Late Game- The damage becomes a minor nuisance and creep waves are pushed too quickly to allow the damage to stack. You'll spend 50 seconds to place a shadow on each hero, which is highly unlikely as most team battles dont even last that long. Even then, if you hypothetically manage to snare them all together you'll end up with 1 fully mature shadow and 4 other ones. The damage output would probably be somewhere around 500-600 with your other skills combined.

My Suggestion: Add something else to this skill or rework the numbers. Your hero doesn't have a slow or a stun (I'm assuming that the 2 second cast time on your snare means that it doesn't drag the heroes to the center of your snare for 2 seconds). Make each shadow to 15% stackable slow or something.

Snare- Once again, too high of a CD and mana cost to be actually useful. Combine that with the melee casting range makes this skill extremely hard to use. It's useless during offense as you have to run into the middle, of the battle, lay a trap, and then activate it. Early game between Shadow and Snare, you'll rarely have enough mana to use both more than once.

My Suggestion: Tweak the numbers or add the ability to lay the rune from a range.

Diffusion- Simple skill, works great with the other ones. Just his presence will multiply the damage output. Great use in defense when the enemy comes with a 10+ creep wave.

Changeling- Great skill, as it allows him to deal out damage in a quick burst. It's a bit confusing though, at first I thought it was like fury swipes from Ursa, but after reading it 6 times or so, I finally understood the true meaning behind the skill. You might want to make it a bit easier to understand if possible.

Overall - Judging from how you want your hero to be a carry, it makes your first two skills extremely useless. You won't have enough mana to use them effectively and in the end it makes your hero lack synergy. Great concept, but the hero definitely needs some modifications. It seems as if this hero would be a great one in the perfect situation, but the requirements needed to make this hero great are extremely hard to achieve. Throughout the game this hero will seem pretty lackluster to me.

Concept - 7.5/10
Hero Role - 5/10

[bittersweets]

sheapy, you seem to have confused yourself with a prophet who can see the future and as such play test a hero before it has been added to a game. Unless you can prove that you are indeed such a prophet, I suggest you keep concepts about numbers to yourself because they are entirely based on your opinion. Furthermore, if you really intend to demean yourself by saying something you are incapable of supporting with facts, I would greatly appreciate it if you looked at previous posts before doing so to see if someone else has already expressed themselves in such a way that would make your post redundant and even more unnecessary then it already is.

[Wyldecarde]

A very interesting and unique hero, kudos. But I do have some problems with his design mainly that his skills (except his ult) scream INT hero to me.

My thoughts on his abilities-

First: My impression of shadow is that it's rank 1&2 are not appealing however I drool over the idea of getting people with it at rank 3/4. Please correct me if I'm wrong but is this situation plausible with the suggested mechanics:
Your a level 5 changeling with rank 3 shadow of ruin, in a lane against 2 enemy heros, you take your time play smart and apply a shadow to each of them, they last until the enemy hero dies so you have all the time in the world to regen your mana and apply the shadows. After both shadows are up you merely play the waiting game until they reach max damage potential, again no problem you've got time get some last hits on creeps or harass, all the while watching the 2 enemy hero's until they are very near each other easy enough to do-and if not buying and using a well placed ward makes it easy enough- then boom the shadows detonate and BOTH (as you popped them when the enemy was close to each other) take 550 damage, not a huge number but if you harassed them at all they will definitely feel it if not die from it. A very strategic skill which can later be used to farm when you have items to psuedo-spam it.

Next: Snare, a useful trap which will reduce magic armor and clump enemy heros together for a nice S.O.R. explosion (with the reduced magic armor that could be a devastating combo). In theory works well with shadow however the 2 second cast time is a little off-putting and this sort of setup on a strength carry doesn't seem to fit, the prep time is simply too much for a melee STR carry and if your unlucky enough to be seen its time wasted. Essentially you would have to get far enough away from them to hide in fog set the trap and hope they didn't just guess at what you just did. I would much rather have a single use cast-able vacuum such as Dark Seer's spell but with keeping Snares effects (the magic armor reduction) and possibly a slight slow (10%) This would make the aforementioned combo of snare/shadow much more fluent and easier to pull off giving him a stronger lane presence and helping to stop fleeing enemy heros. This could be plausible if snares effects got marginally better but leveling it increases casting range (such as 2magicarmor redux, a 3% slow, and a vacuum displacement the size of pyros stun at rank 1 scaling up to a 5 or 6 magic armor redux 10% slow and displacement radius similar in size to chronos ult) This would lead to fluent and painful combo with SOR

third: Diffusion, this is THE ability I'm slapping my self in the head for not thinking of first. A revamped fatal bonds, but since its an aura and ever-present much more appealing. My problem with this ability is its numbers, placement, and that it shouldn't affect creeps- the % should be higher such as a 3/6/9 the range should be increased to 1000 to match soul reapers aura and made into his ultimate. Why? With it's current design it would feel as though a d.o.t. (damage over time effect) were applied to all units in a 400 radius as long as your hitting, additionally the 'dot' would be easy to avoid (just back up) and such situational damage doesn't seem worth it over stats. However with a little tweaking this turns into a monstrous team-damage-boosting ability. With the increased radius it would add a huge boon to team clashes as each hit/spell is felt by the entire enemy team

Finally: His ult, changeling. This is prolly the only ability out of four that truly seemed to fit the STR carry idea. This is a move I strongly like but feel as though it belongs on a different hero, mainly since this hero's other 3 abilities feel INT-ish to me. Again on paper it works well, say your auto-atacking with rift shards and you crit on hit #1 well hit number #2 is going to get a nifty damage boost to it. More impressive is how it would work in a 2v1 situation, say pyro ult nukes and enemy you are auto attacking, bam your next hit will get a significant boost and with the buffs duration balances it well. Again I like it, I think it belongs on a STR carry, I just don't think this hero feels like a STR carry

Suggestions: Change him to a short-range int hero (Similar to thunderbringer range) with 295 move speed, rework stats and mana cost of abilities to suit this. Change Snare, and alter buff diffusion to make it his Ult. Put Changeling ult on a different hero (I really like that move) This would change him from a STR carry to an INT nuker with an amazing damage boosting aura. But you would hafta think up a new ability to

Overall I think you had some kick-ass ideas but put the eggs into one basket that just doesn't look quite right. With my suggestions or some creative ones of your own I think he'll make a fine hero, that makes you a potential father and I'm urging you, don't abort this baby, cuz after writing all this I really want to see him in game =P

[bittersweets]

Thanks for the feedback Wylde, but I think you misunderstood the ultimate a little bit.
The ultimate buffs your damage based on any damage that is attributed to you on a global basis. This means that if you set up some shadows on irrelevant targets and explode them right before you attack a target, you will get a huge damage spike. This is the ability that ties what feels like int into a carry. It converts int-style burst damage into regular carry damage. A pyromancer ulting the enemy you are attacking will barely add any bonus damage, just 4% of the pyro's ulti.

In any case, since quite a few people have suggested that I remake him as an int hero, I'll explain why I considered this and then discarded it.

First and foremost, with his current skillset, Marsuvius needs to get in close to the enemy for the most effect. He will be incapable of tanking the necessary damage in order to get the desired play style if he is a squishy intelligence hero.

In response to those who think one or two of his abilities don't fit with the others, allow me to explain each and every piece of internal synergy he has.

Shadow of Ruin -
Snare - When used with snare, its damage is greatly increased, furthermore, snare allows you to pull enemies together for maximum effect from the AoE.

Diffusion - Further increases damage, also spreads the damage in an area for maximum effect.

Changeling - Because you can wait however long you wish to explode the shadows, you can achieve absurd bonus damage with changeling.
Snare -
Shadow of Ruin - See above.

Diffusion - The decreased magic armor in the area means that whatever damage is dealt with diffusion will achieve a maximum effect, furthermore snare pulls the enemies into the range of diffusion, the more enemies in range the more total damage spread

Changeling - Snare pulls enemies into attack range, allowing you to get off a few critical high damage attacks following an initial burst. Furthermore, with the right items snare makes changeling even more damaging.
Diffusion -
Shadow Of Ruin - See above

Snare - See above

Changeling - Adds an extra 4% damage to whatever you dish out, as well as dealing that extra damage in an area. Furthermore, all damage that is diffused goes towards your changeling total, greatly increasing the damage dished out by changeling.
Changeling -
Shadow Of Ruin - See above

Snare - See above

Diffusion - See above
I don't see how you can change him into an int hero without breaking his perfect internal synergy.

I don't see any real benefit for changing his main attribute either. If you think the problem is that he will spend too much time managing his abilities and won't be able to farm, it is a simple matter to change a few numbers to make his abilities more flexible.

Unfortunately, like I have said a billion times, we can't play test him. We don't know how inflexible it will be, we don't know if the numbers are overpowered or underpowered, we have no way of knowing. Vote on concept, because my guess on numbers is as good as yours. If a slight number tweak could fix a "problem" with the hero, I would ask that you don't bring up the "problem" lest you stifle whatever remnant of creativity is left in existence on this forum.

[kidicarus1]

The skillset doesn't seem right for a strength hero.

I personally don't like the idea of anything that lasts indefinitely on a target, or multiple targets, without a way to get rid of them besides death. While the ability itself is unique and new, 30 seconds is just way too long to mature to full damage. It's like a failed attempt at a remote mine from techies.

The snare is an interesting take on vacuum, and has synergy with his first ability well. The diffusion aura is too small to really be of that much use I feel. It almost feels like forced synergy. The ult is a boring attempt at making this hodge podge of a hero into something of a carry, when none of his abilities are really "carry" material.

Sorry, not a fan.

[Sheapy1]

sheapy, you seem to have confused yourself with a prophet who can see the future and as such play test a hero before it has been added to a game. Unless you can prove that you are indeed such a prophet, I suggest you keep concepts about numbers to yourself because they are entirely based on your opinion. Furthermore, if you really intend to demean yourself by saying something you are incapable of supporting with facts, I would greatly appreciate it if you looked at previous posts before doing so to see if someone else has already expressed themselves in such a way that would make your post redundant and even more unnecessary then it already is.

Why would I look at other posts? Those other suggestions would just skew my vote and lean toward what they are already saying. Avoid previous comments to be as impartial as you can towards a suggestion. Things are going to be repeated, it's how judging works. Not every single person will have an entirely different idea over what or how your hero works.

I will admit that making my critique mostly based on numbers was wrong and for that I'm sorry.

Reevaeluation: Good concept. The only problem that I have with this hero is that he/she has no slow or stun. Even most late game carries have something that allow them to chase down a hero. Of course this can be solved by a nullfire blade, but who knows what people buy.