Hero Tiers (revisited after patch)

[gat0r84]

So yeah, I remember the hero tier discussion a while back. I was wondering if we could construct a new list reflecting the latest patch. So what say you, HoN addicts? Is Defiler still a god? How about the new guys; where do they fit in? Did Pharaoh get jobbed by the Hellfire dps decrease? Gimme what you got, folks.

[dreamex]

So yeah, I remember the hero tier discussion a while back. I was wondering if we could construct a new list reflecting the latest patch. So what say you, HoN addicts? Is Defiler still a god? How about the new guys; where do they fit in? Did Pharaoh get jobbed by the Hellfire dps decrease? Gimme what you got, folks.

No real significant changes.

Soul Reaper is high/top tier.
Plague Rider is high/mid tier.

Scout is out from useless tier, he's good support but his team has to be able to capitalize on his map dominance and also be able to withstand pushes 4v5 in the early game.

I'm not sure about Zephyr's usefulness with the new change to him and the nerf to Heart, now he feels like a really mediocre carry with semi-tank potential...

Wildsoul is much higher on the list, he's very playable now with changes to BooBoo and Wild.

[theqat]

Dreamex, hope you don't mind if i copy + paste your old list in here--just so people will know what the thread is about. I modified the tiers based on what you said above.

I've also alphabetized it, and I'll preface it by saying that it shouldn't be taken as gospel, may contain errors, and is very malleable based on game circumstances--even Chronos, Magebane, and Dark Lady can get out of hand in a disorganized public match :)

Edit: This list now updated to reflect Dreamex's changes further down the page


Bad Picks:
Bottom:
Chronos
Dark Lady
Magebane

Low:
Devourer
Keeper of the Forest
Night Hound
Predator
War Beast
Zephyr

Mid:
Accursed
Andromeda*
Armadon
Blacksmith
Blood Hunter*
Hammerstorm
Kraken
Ophelia*
Pollywog
Pebbles
Pharaoh*
Plague Rider*
Scout
Slither
Voodoo Jester
Wildsoul
Wretched Hag*

High:
Arachna
Behemoth
Demented Shaman
Electrician*
Glacius*
Hellbringer*
Legionnaire
Madman*
Moon Queen
Pestilence
Puppet Master
Pyromancer
Soul Stealer
Succubus
Swiftblade
Torturer

Top:
Defiler
Jeraziah
Magmus
Nymphora
Soul Reaper
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Valkyrie

[dreamex]

Oh Hammerstorm and Kraken remakes make them playable again, but they'll probably never get serious consideration since many many many heroes are better carries/initiators.

Unless you're in an RD pool where they're the only str heroes available xd.

[Yoncore]

I don't beleive any hero is a flat outirght "bad pick" in 100% of circumstances... I would abolish/move bottom tier into "mediocre picks" .... they just need a good babysitter and its all situational. Tempest + anti mages aoe ult can be a brutal team down combo, depending on what they have.

[dreamex]

I don't beleive any hero is a flat outirght "bad pick" in 100% of circumstances... I would abolish/move bottom tier into "mediocre picks" .... they just need a good babysitter and its all situational. Tempest + anti mages aoe ult can be a brutal team down combo, depending on what they have.

Bad and mediocre picks tend to be picks that are so dependent on other heroes and team make ups that there are better alternatives that contribute MORE or sooner or rely less on individual assistance to succeed.

It's like saying "would a Ford Focus get you to your destination? Yes. Is it as nice of a car as a BMW M3? No."

Every single hero in this game can contribute, it's a measure of how much, how fast, and how well they work together with other heroes.

For instance, Glacius is a high pick because he works well with any caster heavy lineup. Thunderbringer is a top pick because he deals copious amounts of damage and has a global that disables portal keys. Meanwhile Magebane is a mediocre to bad pick because he can only contribute if he is babysat and has a team that will ward for him and gank his lane repeatedly to allow him to carry.

etc etc.

[Yoncore]

Bad and mediocre picks tend to be picks that are so dependent on other heroes and team make ups that there are better alternatives that contribute MORE or sooner or rely less on individual assistance to succeed.

It's like saying "would a Ford Focus get you to your destination? Yes. Is it as nice of a car as a BMW M3? No."

Every single hero in this game can contribute, it's a measure of how much, how fast, and how well they work together with other heroes.

For instance, Glacius is a high pick because he works well with any caster heavy lineup. Thunderbringer is a top pick because he deals copious amounts of damage and has a global that disables portal keys. Meanwhile Magebane is a mediocre to bad pick because he can only contribute if he is babysat and has a team that will ward for him and gank his lane repeatedly to allow him to carry.

etc etc.

I feel you have missed my point...

there are a finite but insanely huge amount pf combinations that you and the enemy team can use with just about as many different strategies... To say that a hero is black and white bad is not the right thing to do... You are saying that 100% of the time there is a better alternative to picking say antimage - regardless of ALL situations you find yourself in ... In saying that would mean that there is a hero that better fulfills any role anti mage could hope to carry out 100% of the time... Got a name for this hero? (jokes aside here I am talking 100% of the time). I can give examples of mock lineups/strategies from lane combo to late game but I'm sure any decent player can think of their own (hence proving my point that there can be a situation for all heroes...). The inferernce that bad means that by picking that hero was the wrong selection - is wrong.

[kowlier]

Oh Hammerstorm and Kraken remakes make them playable again, but they'll probably never get serious consideration since many many many heroes are better carries/initiators.

Unless you're in an RD pool where they're the only str heroes available xd.

hammerstorm is worse then before, since his stun has increased cooldown from 8 to 14 seconds. before the last patch, hammerstorm was a monster once properly build. haven't played him since patch, but i think the increased cooldown has a greater impact then we think.
or am i that wrong? :p

[Fagabond]

Gogogo "Tempest" :D

[dreamex]

I feel you have missed my point...

there are a finite but insanely huge amount pf combinations that you and the enemy team can use with just about as many different strategies... To say that a hero is black and white bad is not the right thing to do... You are saying that 100% of the time there is a better alternative to picking say antimage - regardless of ALL situations you find yourself in ... In saying that would mean that there is a hero that better fulfills any role anti mage could hope to carry out 100% of the time... Got a name for this hero? (jokes aside here I am talking 100% of the time). I can give examples of mock lineups/strategies from lane combo to late game but I'm sure any decent player can think of their own (hence proving my point that there can be a situation for all heroes...). The inferernce that bad means that by picking that hero was the wrong selection - is wrong.

I think it is you who don't understand my point. I am not saying that Antimage is always bad, I am saying that he is bad in the vast majority of lineups possible and particularly the ones that are evident in the current metagame.

Here's another analogy: "The 2004 Detroit Pistons upset the Los Angelas Lakers because they had a very good team oriented unit where each player was effective within that particular system. Since then they've changed the team around a few times and none of the players have regained their form or poise. Would you rather have Richard Hamilton, an integral part of that playoff team who was very effective at scoring against the Lakers or would you rather have Kobe Bryant, one of the greatest players of all time?"

Just because Antimage works SOMETIMES in SOME LINEUPS doesn't change the fact there are heroes who work MORE TIMES in MORE LINEUPS and fullfill similar roles.

I've written a very detailed guide on Antimage for this forum based on how he was played by many top asian teams in DotA utilizing him as a strong solo pusher and semi-carry, but he is still ultimately considered relatively worse than many other heroes with respects of the metagame. I understand how the hero works and his strengths and weaknesses and his unparalleled pushing prowess is his only claim to fame.

Can the hero work if you factor in opponent incompetence or completely poorly picked hero lineups? Yes of course.

Can the hero work if you factor in that opponents are playing at the meta level and picked a very strong lineup? Not as likely.

Antimage is one of the weakest carries in the game because of 5 key facts.

1. He has no lane presence
2. He has very paper HP through and through
3. His two key abilities scale inversely to each other
4. He doesn't scale with items, outside of a naturally fast BAT
5. He contributes nothing to the team early on when played as a carry

His saving grace is that he's a blinker, and he's melee, so he can carry Runed Axe, decimate creep waves, and blink the **** out before the enemy can gank him. This is valuable in some lineups catered specifically to them

I agree with you that picking him doesn't automatically mean you lose. It's just that, picking him means you better know what you're doing with your team and/or you're planning on outplaying your opponents.

THIS IS HOW TIER LISTS WORK. THEY ARE BASED ON THEORETICAL MATCHUPS OF EFFECTIVENESS AT THE METAGAME LEVEL. YOU'RE THOUGHTS THAT SOMETIMES THIS HERO WILL WORK DO NOT APPLY AT THE METAGAME LEVEL.

Sorry to sound like an ******* about this, but honestly, tier lists are meant as references and guides to how to better evolve the metagame to include more heroes as valuable picks. It's not a cut-in-stone statement that some heroes can never be played.

[dreamex]

hammerstorm is worse then before, since his stun has increased cooldown from 8 to 14 seconds. before the last patch, hammerstorm was a monster once properly build. haven't played him since patch, but i think the increased cooldown has a greater impact then we think.
or am i that wrong? :p


AoE Stun, Faster Stun Projectile, Rework of his Aura.

He's more powerful now because he can do more for his team early and he can actually keep up with people via Galvanize.

[Rasui]

Looking at the above list can anyone tell me why Andromeda and Pharaoh are in the mediocre category when I see them in top level DotA replays all the time?

[dreamex]

Looking at the above list can anyone tell me why Andromeda and Pharaoh are in the mediocre category when I see them in top level DotA replays all the time?

That list was made when you could still phase out of mummies and pharaoh wasn't affected by staff.

Andromeda is mediocre because her Aurora was broken and didn't grant vision unless it hit something, greatly limiting one facet of her game.

I still personally feel Andromeda in HoN right now is weaker than VS in DotA due to slight differences in the metagame based on the availability of heroes. HoN really favours early pushing over ganking at this stage and until we see more anti-push heroes I don't anticipate that happening...

[Yoncore]

Alright, I see your point, however


THIS IS HOW TIER LISTS WORK. THEY ARE BASED ON THEORETICAL MATCHUPS OF EFFECTIVENESS AT THE METAGAME LEVEL. YOU'RE THOUGHTS THAT SOMETIMES THIS HERO WILL WORK DO NOT APPLY AT THE METAGAME LEVEL.

Don't be so presumptuous - I understand in depth the influence and importance of the meta level of a game across a very broard range of titles and game series (heavy rts background). Seeing as you like to use analogys (all be them obscure and not quite as relevant to gaming) I feel it easier to convey this with one of my own - that at my most active I was ranked 42nd in the world at AoE3 1v1. This game (and the entire age of empire series) and its compedative scene required a very indepth knowledge, understanding and implementation (ie picks) of tier systems within the civilisations you could choose from. I played exlcuseively what was considered the lowest "ranking" tier (that remained across a very very long line of patchs) in the game yet had no problem developing adaptive and dynamic strategies that with practice outplayed and dominated every1 I faced (with 1/5th of the game count that any1 outranking me had).

All this is saying is that I agree with you and hope every1 else understands the relevance of a tier list as well, I guess. As my original post said - a "bad tier" infers that selecting that hero is a BAD choice... Maybe just rename the Bottom Picks tier :p

Don't be condescending with me, I take it to offence easily...

[dreamex]

Alright, I see your point, however

Don't be so presumptuous - I understand in depth the influence and importance of the meta level of a game across a very broard range of titles and game series (heavy rts background). Seeing as you like to use analogys (all be them obscure and not quite as relevant to gaming) I feel it easier to convey this with one of my own - that at my most active I was ranked 42nd in the world at AoE3 1v1. This game (and the entire age of empire series) and its compedative scene required a very indepth knowledge, understanding and implementation (ie picks) of tier systems within the civilisations you could choose from. I played exlcuseively what was considered the lowest "ranking" tier (that remained across a very very long line of patchs) in the game yet had no problem developing adaptive and dynamic strategies that with practice outplayed and dominated every1 I faced (with 1/5th of the game count that any1 outranking me had).

All this is saying is that I agree with you and hope every1 else understands the relevance of a tier list as well, I guess. As my original post said - a "bad tier" infers that selecting that hero is a BAD choice... Maybe just rename the Bottom Picks tier :p

Don't be condescending with me, I take it to offence easily...

Noted, Classical Tier structure would dictate that they should be titled Bottom, Low, Mid, High, Top.

Bottom:
Chronos
Dark Lady
Magebane

Low:
Devourer
Keeper of the Forest
Night Hound
Predator
War Beast
Zephyr

Mid:
Accursed
Andromeda*
Armadon
Blacksmith
Blood Hunter*
Hammerstorm
Kraken
Ophelia*
Pollywog
Pebbles
Pharaoh*
Plague Rider*
Scout
Slither
Voodoo Jester
Wildsoul
Wretched Hag*

High:
Arachna
Behemoth
Demented Shaman
Electrician*
Glacius*
Hellbringer*
Legionnaire
Madman*
Moon Queen
Pestilence
Puppet Master
Pyromancer
Soul Stealer
Succubus
Swiftblade
Torturer

Top:
Defiler
Jeraziah
Magmus
Nymphora
Soul Reaper
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Valkyrie

Would be how I'd rank it right now given the current metagame that favours semi-carries and push oriented lineups. I've added asterisks to a few heroes that really should be a +0.5 type of rating and moved some of the heroes around after a little more consideration.

[Yoncore]

Low:

Predator




Is Naix really that far down in HoN atm? To my understanding he was on the verge of godlike tier in comp dota?

[dreamex]

N'aix was never on the verge of godlike in comp dota >_> I dunno what you're reading.

He was okay if riced hard enough and the translations between Venomous Leap vs Open Wounds and Stone Hide vs Rage have not been kind.

Rage is a much better skill because it allowed N'aix to quickly take a chunk out of any target, Stone Hide doesn't give Predator the same level of steroid.

Predator's ultimate is also stupidly mana intensive and has a huge cooldown, in a game that favours few carries and more support his ultimate usually ends up affecting only him and he can't always get it off easily either.

[Yoncore]

Must of been lies. Relatively (and definetly anything high skill comp wise) I am semi-new to dota I guess - still learning, I loved jungle naix in dota,,, preds mp can't support his ult beyond level 1 I feel - which is a bit stupid. But yes I see the reasoning in his placement..

I still have a bit of a hard time understanding how AM is bot tier... I always thought of him similar but not quite as solid as yunero (is this applicably correct?) - ALOT more in the HoN with swifts ult compared to AMs most recently updated.

PS - especially when you look at all the heroes in the tier above him.

[dreamex]

Must of been lies. Relatively (and definetly anything high skill comp wise) I am semi-new to dota I guess - still learning, I loved jungle naix in dota,,, preds mp can't support his ult beyond level 1 I feel - which is a bit stupid. But yes I see the reasoning in his placement..

I still have a bit of a hard time understanding how AM is bot tier... I always thought of him similar but not quite as solid as yunero (is this applicably correct?) - ALOT more in the HoN with swifts ult compared to AMs most recently updated.

PS - especially when you look at all the heroes in the tier above him.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=15105

Here's a piece I wrote on Magebane awhile back (updated with the new changes)

This was really the only way that he was ever played in competitive lines in DotA and he saw limited action at that.

Like I detailed above, he has a few key flaws that prevent him from being an effective contributer for team fights and ganks early without strong setup from teammates.

Differences between Swiftblade/Magebane:

1. Swiftblade scales end game thanks to Counter Attack, Crit, and natural attack speed. Magebane scales with natural attack speed only.
2. Swiftblade has presence early with Blade Frenzy since it protects him from spells and also deals high DPS. Magebane deals respectable DPS to targets with mana but is more vulnerable. (Swifty spins on a disabled target = guaranteed damage that can't be avoided, Magebane blinks into a disabled target = possibly stunned and raped by the opposing lanemate)
3. Swiftblade's ult continues to improve as the game goes on (bonus slashes between scripted slashes based on attack speed etc). Magebane's ult scales inversely with his Mana Burn (the more mana they have, the less effective Mana Burn is in removing it and the less necessary Mana Rift is in killing someone as you'll deplete their HP faster than their MP and the less mana they have the more effective Mana Burn is in depleting it but the less damage Mana Rift will do).

Magebane is really one of my favourite heroes but he really can't outcarry most solid carries because they have less reliance on their teammates and can start contributing with their abilities sooner. Even Chronos can benefit his team in stalling pushes with his bubble.

The best way to play Magebane and still contribute throughout the game is to have your team ward for you and push the two side lanes continously to keep them moving as you're ricing up. This way at least you provide intangibles while you're farming, and with judicial use of wards you can afford to push all the way up to the second tower before blinking away. It's very hard to close a trap on Magebane, even when he has low HP early.

You can fill the role of semi-carry/ganker as well, but that requires strong disables from your teammates for you to really get in and do damage.

Honestly speaking, if I want a carry, I would pick one that doesn't need to be babysat and can contribute sooner to the carry role. Even if I want a super hard carry that's gonna farm for 30 minutes before contributing I'd pick Chronos and play 4v5 until then. But if I want a semi-carry toolbox to push the **** out of lanes I may consider Magebane, assuming my lineup and the enemy lineup is favourable.

[xahxah]

Is Naix really that far down in HoN atm? To my understanding he was on the verge of godlike tier in comp dota?


He was more annoying than anything in DotA because he was anti-strength hero and if you positioned yourself just slightly wrong at level 1 it was a FB if Naix was in your lane.

[dreamex]

He was more annoying than anything in DotA because he was anti-strength hero and if you positioned yourself just slightly wrong at level 1 it was a FB if Naix was in your lane.

Thanks to Wounds, which predator doesn't have :\

[Yoncore]

Here's a piece I wrote on Magebane awhile back (updated with the new changes)

This was really the only way that he was ever played in competitive lines in DotA and he saw limited action at that.

...

2. Swiftblade has presence early with Blade Frenzy since it protects him from spells and also deals high DPS. Magebane deals respectable DPS to targets with mana but is more vulnerable. (Swifty spins on a disabled target = guaranteed damage that can't be avoided, Magebane blinks into a disabled target = possibly stunned and raped by the opposing lanemate)
Yeah maybe I should of elaborated more on my trail of thought in that he was similar in the early to mid game of being able to pop out with a disabler and splash out damage then finish with his ult (or vise versa depending where you are) compared to ams ability to jump out and hit hit hit in stun then follow it with another blink/chase and a ulty. Obviously comparitively less solid/stable then juggs. You actually mentioned swift in your guide somewhere I think along similar lines - nice one (guide) btw.

The style you described of pushing up the side lines with a bf/blink out seems like a really good way to play him, especially if your team is roaming and ganking map while you distract/push out towers on the other side of the map. The couple of games I have played as him (be it pubs 1750+ or whatever) I do what your guide also entails in heading bot (legion) with a good babysitter and then progressing to ganking lanes in early-midish game ... but never REALLY knew where to go from there, I see how his skillset means he gets outcarried by better synergized scaling heroes such as arach/void. Also comparitively while swift has magic immunity, am has the ability to sap out mana leaving them unable to cast ie achieveing effectively the same outcome.



He was more annoying than anything in DotA because he was anti-strength hero and if you positioned yourself just slightly wrong at level 1 it was a FB if Naix was in your lane. Grabbing the first rune haste with him was always xD.

...

[Karacis]

Thanks for the updated hero tier list. But i notice Maliken wasn't on there. I'm guessing with his sword throw and ultimate. He would be around mid/high tier.

[KingDavid]

how is soul stealer a top pick? hes not even a top pick in dota. Lich should be top pick or plague rider. If i can remember he was abused in european league dota games.

[crayze]

Soulstealer is not a bad pick in certain lineups, tbh. Strong nuking power early game, very strong attacks mid-game, good AoE ultimate mid-late. Obviously needs to be put in a lineup with enough control and not enough straight nuking power, but 3 300 damage nukes with shortish cooldowns isn't something thats particularly common.

By the way, I'd put the new Kraken in high tier rather than mid tier. Blink Dagger + Whirlpool is a pretty ridiculously strong initiation combo as long as you have *anything* else AoE-ish. Even Tempest's storm doesn't leave enemies in as close proximity afterwards as Kraken, basically letting you chain AoEs directly into the mass of them for max damage.

[Vodka]

Soulstealer is not a bad pick in certain lineups, tbh. Strong nuking power early game, very strong attacks mid-game, good AoE ultimate mid-late. Obviously needs to be put in a lineup with enough control and not enough straight nuking power, but 3 300 damage nukes with shortish cooldowns isn't something thats particularly common.

By the way, I'd put the new Kraken in high tier rather than mid tier. Blink Dagger + Whirlpool is a pretty ridiculously strong initiation combo as long as you have *anything* else AoE-ish. Even Tempest's storm doesn't leave enemies in as close proximity afterwards as Kraken, basically letting you chain AoEs directly into the mass of them for max damage.

Kraken/PlagueRider/Tempest is a ridiculously powerful ult combo, even without tempest.

[crayze]

Mm, I wasn't saying to put Kraken and Tempest together (although that would work too), but rather saying that given that many AoEs are relatively small target area, the best initiation skills pull enemies together. Tempest's ult doesn't pull enemies together as much as Kraken's does. Kraken's ult allows you to AoE the team down with small AoEs such as Pestilence's, Pyromancer's, Torturers, and of course the big ones help too like Magmus, Tempest, Hellbringer :).

[Alamandaros]

Not sure if I would agree on Wildsoul being only mid tier with no give or take. I understand he doesn't have the lane control of some heroes (albiet it's above most carries), and for the most part he doesn't have much to bring early besides the lucky entangle, but his potential is in my opinion second to none.

From experience if you can farm an early Mock (pre-20 minutes being best case scenario; easily doable if able to jungle or able to net a couple hero kills) then it's the fast-road to uber carry. Very fast farming, an extremely helpful bear in many ways, the HP to make you beefy before items (I believe I read the highest natural EHP in the game, for a carry, or something like that), a super building demolisher, the ability to push multiple lanes and to even play mind-games with the enemy team doing that, and if you ever get stuck in a game that lasts forever... well you do have 12 item slots to fill.

If I had to throw him on the list somewhere, it would probably be Mid Tier with a '**'. If he can grab that early Mock, he can wreck a team and is probably top tier. On the other hand if he gets shutout... yea he's probably stuck on that mid tier.

[_Archangel_]

No real significant changes.

Soul Reaper is high/top tier.
Plague Rider is high/mid tier.

Scout is out from useless tier, he's good support but his team has to be able to capitalize on his map dominance and also be able to withstand pushes 4v5 in the early game.

I'm not sure about Zephyr's usefulness with the new change to him and the nerf to Heart, now he feels like a really mediocre carry with semi-tank potential...

Wildsoul is much higher on the list, he's very playable now with changes to BooBoo and Wild.

Soul Reaper, hell no. He's almost impossible to carry with now, with all his core items nerfed.

[ForumTroll]

I find magebane pretty useful, many a time I've snuck up on a ganking thunderbringer (or various other int based early gankers) who have been using a lot of their MP on trying to gank my teammates, flash into them, one or two hits and then ulti and they are dead. Often at times depending on how low they let their MP get and how much HP they're missing I've been able to just flash into them then ultimate for the 1shot, then proceed to flash away while giggling to myself. This will tide you over till late game where you have better items so you're not as reliant on your ultimate.

You can easily keep the runes on lock down with your flash so that int gankers with a bottle don't have a constant supply of mana, hence encouraging them to drain more of their mana before returning to base to refill. Hence making them much more vulnerable to your ulti.


Admittedly though if the other team doesn't have any high mana pool int heroes, or only has int heroes which constantly keep their mana pool relatively full (nymphora and puppetmaster seem to be the two that come to mind) you're near useless until you've farmed up thousands of gold worth of gear. Also when playing against more experienced players, if they realize a magebane is missing and they're a hero that is fairly susceptible to magebane's ulti, they wont let their MP drop too low so that you have to beat on them like a wet sock for a while until you've depleted all their mana

[thugwaffle]

Devourer being low and Maliken not being there at all makes me sad. :(

[DonKeyHoeTea]

IHere's another analogy: "The 2004 Detroit Pistons upset the Los Angelas Lakers because they had a very good team oriented unit where each player was effective within that particular system. Since then they've changed the team around a few times and none of the players have regained their form or poise. Would you rather have Richard Hamilton, an integral part of that playoff team who was very effective at scoring against the Lakers or would you rather have Kobe Bryant, one of the greatest players of all time?"

Basketball analogies work so well with dota and HoN. 5v5, constantly switching offense and defense, there's equivalents of power forwards, point guards, and centers, very team-oriented.

Great analogy