carries

[sHoWTiMe]

Can someone name me the heroes which are pure carries/semi-carries?

I know a couple: magebane, madman, predator, legionairre(?), perhaps maliken, chronos(?),...

[theqat]

Legionnaire definitely isn't a carry.

Magebane, Madman, Predator*, Maliken*, Chronos, Valkyrie*, Zephyr, War Beast, Pestilence*, Defiler*, Soul Reaper*, Arachna, Dark Lady, Blood Hunter, Soulstealer, Night Hound, Moon Queen, Swiftblade, Scout, Wildsoul, Armadon*, Hammerstorm*, Puppet Master*

*=semi-carry

Others can certainly correct or add as they see fit, but I think that covers most of them.

[Puciek]

I would say that jere is also very nice carry.

[Enreign]

Predator, Maliken, Valkyrie and Pestilence are all full carries

Hammerstorm I could see if people say he's semi, but I think he's good enough to be full as well

Puppet Master is definite semi-carry material, as are Defiler and Soul Reaper.

Jere fits with Puppet as semi-carry - even with Quelling Blade, his lack of moves like X Marks the Spot and Ghost Ship makes him inferior to carry Kunkka. He's still better as support 90% of the time.

[Loosance]

Predator, Maliken, Valkyrie and Pestilence are all full carries

Hammerstorm I could see if people say he's semi, but I think he's good enough to be full as well

Puppet Master is definite semi-carry material, as are Defiler and Soul Reaper.

Jere fits with Puppet as semi-carry - even with Quelling Blade, his lack of moves like X Marks the Spot and Ghost Ship makes him inferior to carry Kunkka. He's still better as support 90% of the time.

why valkyrie? Does she have a single spell that scale with carry job ?

[Extreme_Cake]

I wouldn't say Magebane is a full carry.

[Enreign]

Valkyrie doesn't have any scaling, but two escape mechanisms and a ridiculous stun means she can constantly gank with tons of survivability until she's farmed enough to not need any.

[Lethe]

Legionnaire definitely isn't a carry.

Magebane, Madman, Predator*, Maliken*, Chronos, Valkyrie*, Zephyr, War Beast, Pestilence*, Defiler*, Soul Reaper*, Arachna, Dark Lady, Blood Hunter, Soulstealer, Night Hound, Moon Queen, Swiftblade, Scout, Wildsoul, Armadon*, Hammerstorm*, Puppet Master*

*=semi-carry

Others can certainly correct or add as they see fit, but I think that covers most of them.

There are other ways you can carry, not every carry requires physical dps to own.

If you followed competitive dota in 6.57-6.59 you would know it is hard to deny that axe carried alot of games. So don't tell us he can't carry.

[Jeza]

Valk is semi-carry imo. Never seen Maliken carry either, ever.

[Enreign]

Valk is semi-carry imo. Never seen Maliken carry either, ever.
Maliken is a disgusting carry.

Ridiculous crit passive
Disabling ulti
AoE autoattack ulti
Escape mechanism (poor one but one nonetheless)
Stupid survivability

All you need is BKB and any lifesteal and you're good to go.

Get Token and you're guaranteed one teamfight where you just suicide while annihilating their team with 75% criticals.

And Lego is a sick carry too.

Barbed armor + blink + taunt + decapitate = win

[Valonsire]

barbed armor? idk....

[Xitras]

Maliken is a disgusting carry.

Ridiculous crit passive
Disabling ulti
AoE autoattack ulti
Escape mechanism (poor one but one nonetheless)
Stupid survivability

All you need is BKB and any lifesteal and you're good to go.

Get Token and you're guaranteed one teamfight where you just suicide while annihilating their team with 75% criticals.

And Lego is a sick carry too.

Barbed armor + blink + taunt + decapitate = win

Legionnaire is NOT a carry, not even close, he is an initiator.

[Simpler]

what is a carrie?:D

[Giantmoth]

Can someone explain to me these terms? Carry, initiatior, etc, I hear them tossed around all the time and have a vague understanding of their meaning, but not quite enough.

Edit: Ack, a few seconds late.

[crayze]

Carry is a hero that blows up their mens late game, generally through massive auto attack damage scaled by %-based abilities. A good example of this is Moon Queen. Glaive attack increases her attack damage, the aura increases her attack damage, and both scale %-based. In end-game with many high damage items, she will tear up enemy teams.

Initiator is a hero that starts the fight. A good initiator generally has an initiation mechanism (duh), something like a Blink type ability or more commonly a Portal Key (often known as Blink or Blink Dag), and then some sort of AoE mechanic that disrupts the enemy team. Legionnaire is a great example. He Blinks into the fight and uses his AoE taunt on as many heroes as possible. This means that their team is caught up in the stun (taunt is essentially a stun). During these few seconds, the rest of the team rushes in and casts their spells. Generally the initiator has a strong fire and forget AoE spell while the rest of the team can combo off that and unleash harder to land but stronger spells. Another good example is Behemoth. He blinks into a large group and blows his ultimate, his Enrage (thus activating Heavyweight and stunning more), and then Fissure (reactivating heavyweight). The combination here causes many of their heroes to be damaged and stunned while the rest of your team can then come in and clean up.

[tenshox]

Not sure about Chronos, i tend to stay away from him at all costs :p

[Giantmoth]

Carry is a hero that blows up their mens late game, generally through massive auto attack damage scaled by %-based abilities.

So you are saying that carries are heros that, at least in the past, used to be called "Late-gamers"?

[crayze]

Yeah, but generally the best carries are heroes that don't have an awful early game in exchange for a great late game. This is why Chronos, while being really powerful late game with stacked items, wouldn't be my choice for an ideal carry. Ideally, a carry can contribute to fights early game in some part with snares or stuns and some damage and then farm a lot without much risk of dying (i.e. escape mechanism somewhere, good example is Predator with magic immune + TP) and dominate the late game.

[ain]

This is why Chronos, while being really powerful late game with stacked items, wouldn't be my choice for an ideal carry.
Chronos has a slow, an escape mechanism and rewind early game and gets a very powerful ult.
He's far from useless early on and is definitely first blood capable even though his lane presence admittedly sucks.

[crayze]

Chronos has a slow, an escape mechanism and rewind early game and gets a very powerful ult.
He's far from useless early on and is definitely first blood capable even though his lane presence admittedly sucks.

Disagree. The slow is a longish cooldown and is on the same ability as his escape mechanism, meaning that if he comes in to slow he can't get out easily. It also isn't a very strong slow and has a short duration. He has no farming abilities, its very rare to get a perfect ult where your team is nearly all ranged and can attack the enemies you lock, generally 1-2 will be outside and the rest will be stuck as well. Leveling Rewind doesn't really keep him alive because the chance is so low, and if you prioritize Rewind over the psuedoblink you lose any offensive power that you could have had. His attack animation isn't particularly good, nor are his stats. He is definitely not first blood capable against decent opponents. Compare his blink to Magmus's blink.

[ain]

Disagree. The slow is a longish cooldown and is on the same ability as his escape mechanism, meaning that if he comes in to slow he can't get out easily. It also isn't a very strong slow and has a short duration. He has no farming abilities, its very rare to get a perfect ult where your team is nearly all ranged and can attack the enemies you lock, generally 1-2 will be outside and the rest will be stuck as well. Leveling Rewind doesn't really keep him alive because the chance is so low, and if you prioritize Rewind over the psuedoblink you lose any offensive power that you could have had. His attack animation isn't particularly good, nor are his stats. He is definitely not first blood capable against decent opponents. Compare his blink to Magmus's blink.
I think you're underestimating his abilities. Rewind is a huge boost to your survivability throughout the game. Time Leap is a very flexible pseudo-blink that can be used offensively, to save teammates or for escaping.
Since you're laning with a strong lane partner there are few hero combos that could actually force you out of a lane before you get alchemist's bones. Once you get there it's very hard to stop your farm. If your mid guy comes over to help you gank and lets you last hit you'll get the bones really fast. Once lvl 6 you get an ult that basically guarantees a kill every 2 minutes and can save your teams life in many occasions.

Yeah, Chronos starts slow, but so do most carries.

[Jeza]

Chronos has massive potential but a catastrophic early game, 25% evasion which stacks with normal evasion and a bash which doesn't stack with normal bash. He can be a complete machine ;x

[crayze]

Hand of Midas is not a good item.

[ain]

Hand of Midas is not a good item.
It's by far the best farming item for him. And that's what he really is about.

[theqat]

Alcehmist's Bones are good on the pure late gamers who need to farm come hell or high water. That means Chronos and War Beast, and that's . . . pretty much it. It's also usable on Puppet because it helps him do the same thing Enhanced Marchers help with--get more Whiplashes out--and because he can get out of hand with lots of items, but it's really more of a pub match thing and he can be quite successful with just Steamboots/2x strength Bracers/Totem of Kuldra.

[LegoPirate]

It's by far the best farming item for him. And that's what he really is about.

bfury parasite marchers take around 20-30 mins for me. midas would only slow that down, because they have no regen. just last hit all your creeps and youll do fine.

[ain]

bfury parasite marchers take around 20-30 mins for me. midas would only slow that down, because they have no regen. just last hit all your creeps and youll do fine.
Yeah, you can't rely on last hits alone against any good lane if you want to end up with a decent farm. With Alchemist's Bones I normally get those items in the same time you mentioned, just that I will have better farm even after that, which will help enormously in getting Wingbow or anything you could imagine. Personally I couldn't imagine skipping Alchemist's Bones on Chronos.

[LegoPirate]

Yeah, you can't rely on last hits alone against any good lane if you want to end up with a decent farm. With Alchemist's Bones I normally get those items in the same time you mentioned, just that I will have better farm even after that, which will help enormously in getting Wingbow or anything you could imagine. Personally I couldn't imagine skipping Alchemist's Bones on Chronos.

good luck surviving in a lane where you have no regen.

[TLDR1]

good luck surviving in a lane where you have no regen.

I played with you once and you picked Chronos. You were in lane for 5 minutes then went to jungle and we never saw you again.

You got ganked 5 times in jungle, were level 9 when everyone else on our team was 14-16, went afk for minutes at a time multiple times, you still two items only (boots and parasite, no homecalling stone ever), and left the game to 'save us the time' when we mentioned vote-kicking you because you were horrible.

So A) you were playing drunk and had the worst game ever, or B) you really shouldn't be talking about playing Chronos because you are the worst one i've ever seen.

[TLDR1]

accidental double post because the forums hate me.

[ain]

good luck surviving in a lane where you have no regen.
It's not like you can't stock up on healing potions/runes. Go short lane and pull neutrals. Go with a healer or a strong harasser to make room for you to last hit.

Surviving in the lane is no problem, because your blink is all you will ever need for that. If your ult is up you can escape any gank by casting it and using a homecoming stone if its really necessary.

The real problem is last-hitting sufficiently, and Midas helps with that.

[crayze]

Alright, here's why Midas isn't very good. If you're being harassed in lane, it will take awhile to farm a Midas and by the time you've farmed it you've already lost a lot of time. Plus the mediocre amount of free gold you'll get will be easily negated by the fact that you delay your next item by a certain amount of time. If you're not being harassed in lane, you should be last hitting every creep easily, in which case the small gain Midas gives you is irrelevant. The attack speed bonus comes at a high cost. Furthermore, Midas gives you no attack damage for 1900 gold. The more you delay Midas to get reasonable attack damage (for last hitting in lane), the worse the transmute bonus becomes.

Some quick math:

You pay 1900 gold for 30 attack speed, or 2 gloves of haste. Discounting the fact that the second "glove" is delayed, lets say that you spent 900 gold for the Transmute. Now every 100 seconds you can transmute a creep. Absolute best case scenario, you can transmute 200 gold worth every 100 seconds. Lets assume that the creep that you Midas is a creep that you would not have gotten the last hit on without Midas (this assumption skews it a lot but whatever). On base, this means that it will take you 450 seconds to recoup what you paid for "transmute" ability. This is 7.5 minutes.

So basically, if you want to rush Midas:

-You're spending 1900 gold early game on an item that gives you NOTHING for last hitting (attack speed is irrelevant).
-It will take you 7.5 minutes to get back into the positives for gold IF you never die with Midas off cooldown, IF you always get the +200 gold creeps, IF you assume that you wouldn't have last hit the creep that you transmuted, IF you assume that the 1900 gold you spend never causes you to miss a creep last hit that you would have gotten if you had taken other items, IF you assume that the 1900 gold spent never causes you to die in a case where you wouldn't were you to get survivability items, IF you use Midas on the dot every 100 seconds, and IF you treat the 30 attack speed that it gives you as 1000 gold equivalent (it isn't, because attack speed is garbage early game especially for a hero thats pretty much only concerned with getting gold).
-You delay your other items (that will actually help you last hit, survive, and farm) by 1900 gold.

Aka, Midas is bad.

[LegoPirate]

I played with you once and you picked Chronos. You were in lane for 5 minutes then went to jungle and we never saw you again.

You got ganked 5 times in jungle, were level 9 when everyone else on our team was 14-16, went afk for minutes at a time multiple times, you still two items only (boots and parasite, no homecalling stone ever), and left the game to 'save us the time' when we mentioned vote-kicking you because you were horrible.

So A) you were playing drunk and had the worst game ever, or B) you really shouldn't be talking about playing Chronos because you are the worst one i've ever seen.

1. i was playing guitar hero that game lolz.

2. im successful in any game where i play chronos, as long as my team can hold the 4v5 while i farm. (assuming im not doing something else)

3. alchemist bones take 1.9k gold, which assuming they are the first item you get, will take around 10 mins to farm. (thats with no other items in your inventory, GL with that.)

so lets do the math.

transmute gives 3x IIRC (in dota it was 2x) so you transmute a minotaur for 80 gold x3 which is 240. CD is 60 seconds. it will take you 8 mins to break even with the item. so at 18 mins, you will have around 4k, assuming you keep last hitting at the same rate (which will be damn near impossible considering you have to run around the jungle transmuting neuts)

4k isnt enough to even buy a single battlefury, so GL with that.

also, if you only transmute a range creep, it takes 16 mins for the item to pay for itself.

simply put, grab a hatchet, and get some last hits. chronos has a nice animation. farm up a bfury, starting with regen rings, then get boots/lifesteal and go rape faces.

or you can always get a sustainer and boots and go ganking with your ult, which works fairly well acutally.

EDIT: CD is 100 seconds, i fail. just proves my point more i guess.

also, if you want to judge my skill level based upon my play in beta pubs feel free, because i take pubs SO seriously.

[LegoPirate]

It's not like you can't stock up on healing potions/runes. Go short lane and pull neutrals. Go with a healer or a strong harasser to make room for you to last hit.

Surviving in the lane is no problem, because your blink is all you will ever need for that. If your ult is up you can escape any gank by casting it and using a homecoming stone if its really necessary.

The real problem is last-hitting sufficiently, and Midas helps with that.


if you cant last hit, get a hatchet. its the lasthittingfornoobs item.

(i like hatchet on melee heros, but i wanna troll this guy a bit :D)

[ain]

I realize Midas takes a while to pay for itself (so does every item), but that is not a problem when playing a late game- and farm focused hero like Chronos.

What would I get early game that would make Chronos' lane presence so much better?

You can easily afford enough regen to farm up 1900 gold early on. Even with just one set of runes and a potion you can stay in a lane for a very long time even if you get harassed a lot.

During mid-game you can rely on your team to help you kill whatever is inside your bubble.

Midas allows you to get the expensive late game items earlier. Chronos is insane with late game items. Therefore you should do everything in your might to get there as soon as possible.

Whether you can sacrifice/delay early/mid game items for faster late game items is probably different from case to case depending on the line-ups.
Some line-ups may favor durability over farming ability early on while others may give you the opportunity to opt for late game.

Midas is still the best farming tool available for Chronos.


if you cant last hit, get a hatchet. its the lasthittingfornoobs item.

(i like hatchet on melee heros, but i wanna troll this guy a bit :D)

Let me rephrase that:

The problem is last-hitting sufficiently while being harassed :P

[LegoPirate]

I realize Midas takes a while to pay for itself (so does every item), but that is not a problem when playing a late game- and farm focused hero like Chronos.

What would I get early game that would make Chronos' lane presence so much better?

You can easily afford enough regen to farm up 1900 gold early on. Even with just one set of runes and a potion you can stay in a lane for a very long time even if you get harassed a lot.

During mid-game you can rely on your team to help you kill whatever is inside your bubble.

Midas allows you to get the expensive late game items earlier. Chronos is insane with late game items. Therefore you should do everything in your might to get there as soon as possible.

Whether you can sacrifice/delay early/mid game items for faster late game items is probably different from case to case depending on the line-ups.
Some line-ups may favor durability over farming ability early on while others may give you the opportunity to opt for late game.

Midas is still the best farming tool available for Chronos.



Let me rephrase that:

The problem is last-hitting sufficiently while being harassed :P

chronos thats farming 50 mins into the game isnt a good chronos player

you either farm up for 25, and go rape with your axe/parasite/boots, or farm for 10, get sustainer and boots and go gank

farming for more then that will only win you the game against total idiots that dont gank you

simply put, if you cant last hit, laneswap. if you cant swap lanes, wait till the enemy leaves the lane then go to town. just watch for ganks.

if someone is harassing you well, tangoes and a tp pot will run out about 5 mins in.

also, i want it known that im talking about NON em.

Basically - chronos is best as a midgame ganker, just like almost any other carry.

EDIT: also, if your team holds out 4v5 for 30+ mins then they probably would have won without you.

[TLDR1]

1. i was playing guitar hero that game lolz.


Oh, I see. So you just start up HoN join a game and then play guitar hero.

All makes sense now.

[LegoPirate]

Oh, I see. So you just start up HoN join a game and then play guitar hero.

All makes sense now.

i was at a freinds house. i started a game. then they started up guitar hero

sorry, friends > hon.

[ain]

chronos thats farming 50 mins into the game isnt a good chronos player

you either farm up for 25, and go rape with your axe/parasite/boots, or farm for 10, get sustainer and boots and go gank

farming for more then that will only win you the game against total idiots that dont gank you

simply put, if you cant last hit, laneswap. if you cant swap lanes, wait till the enemy leaves the lane then go to town. just watch for ganks.

if someone is harassing you well, tangoes and a tp pot will run out about 5 mins in.

also, i want it known that im talking about NON em.

Basically - chronos is best as a midgame ganker, just like almost any other carry.

EDIT: also, if your team holds out 4v5 for 30+ mins then they probably would have won without you.

Who says you can't help your team in-between farming?

[LegoPirate]

Who says you can't help your team in-between farming?

because then you arent farming? lol

not farming defies the defintion of farming.

[Stalker]

BACK ON TOPIC!
This is post isnt about alchemist bones/midas, it's about lots of carrys, all im hearing about is bloody chronos.

The best thing to do if you pick chronos is..... REPICK. problem sloved.

MQ or any other carry for that matter can outlane chronos. Yes i know he rapes faces late game but unless you survive the early and mid game phases there isnt going to BE a late game....

I think bloodhunter is one of the best carrys in the game tbh as he is the only carry that can tower dive and escape with full hp... But I also like arachna so meh XD.

Remember, the best advise for chronos is REPICK!

[Tiani]

excuse me for meing a total noob nut carry means? I think it means the guy just farm for entire game then carrys team to a win at the end? is that right? what would make a char a carry then? massive ulti's or loads of hp/regen?

[Sozmatron]

Carries generally mean ridiculously good Auto-attack damage which combines with skills to become nuke-level attacks lategame. Stuns or other forms of disables are also a requirement (Partially why I don't think Moon is really a carry) or some kind of ability to hunt down enemies (Bloodhunter). They should also have good escape abilities (Nighthound's invis, Magebane's Blink) but in the absence of inbuilt abilities Assassin's shroud and Portal key are popular choices.

Pestillence for example meets the requirements with his fast movement speed in flight, Impale for stun, Swarm for extreme damage and Gore for Auto-attack disabling. Madman is similar with Stalk for high speed, Barrel roll for stun, Crits and Berserk for decimating enemies in combat.

While there are those Melee heroes with high solid damage for dispatching enemies, there are also heroes which deal enormous spike damage. Soulstealer for example attacks quickly and with a Shieldbreaker and Flayer can deal enormous spikes of damage, so even without disables (Apart from the slowing ulti) he is a capable carry.

Carry heroes do not make carries though, it's the player's ability to farm up, drop in a out of combat and build the heroes correctly that make carries. Generally a carry would be very cautious at the start, farming up and leveling while focusing on preserving oneself. Doesn't mean they sit in the jungle the whole time, just means they don't take unneccesary risks in hopes of gain (IE Tower diving for kills). Solid leveling and Farming is just a part of becoming a carry, item choices are also crucial, personally I think attack items are a must for a carry, attempts to tank up a hero will simply reduce a carry's damage output. For example with Puppetmaster one should first go for items that increase his damage, Hellflower is a great choice as it complements his Whiplash very nicely as well as give him an extra disable. A example of bad building would be something like Helm of Black Legion or Enhanced Marchers, getting such expensive items means that the hero is unable to increase his damage output, making it harder to farm, kill and get gold in general, which builds up throughout the game to make the hero very weak lategame.
Carries should also drop in to kill heroes and not run in to try to tank whole teams, so waiting for someone to initiate, killing the casters then hunting the rest down is pretty much the job of a carry. When played well carries turn the tides of battle and are the deciding factor in a match.

[ain]

because then you arent farming? lol

not farming defies the defintion of farming.

Getting kills > farming. Getting kills for your team > farming.

[dreamex]

Getting kills > farming. Getting kills for your team > farming.

Carries get kills by having Gankers gank their lane.

If you have to stone to the opposite side of the map and chase an enemy hero around the forest to maybe get the kill you are giving up a huge amount of gold due to the time you've expended. Not to mention Chronos contributes so little to a gank with no items (virtually no dps and at that stage of the game a 3s bubble that allows for 3-4 melee hits and only synergizes with strong ranged gankers).

Don't run off to go gank, have people come gank your lane if there's a hero, and if there isn't one, free farm til you can contribute more.

[ain]

If you can make sure that one or two heroes die it's worth it as long as you don't spend too much time on it. If your team is fine without you, then they don't need your help in the first place.

I'm just saying that sometimes leaving your lane can pay off. You can deny the enemy a lot of gold and xp if you kill them, which will make you stronger compared to them in the long run.

[crayze]

I'm not sure how much simpler I can explain this. Attack speed doesn't help you farm at all, stay alive at all. 1900 gold spend on attack power means you have 1900 less gold spend on things that help you farm or survive. And then IF you perfectly use it on cooldown on the correct creeps every time and you assume that you wouldn't have normally killed the creep anyway, in 7.5 minutes you're back to even. BUT THATS NOT BACK TO 1900! Thats assuming 1000 gold = 30 attack speed!

In reality, you don't WANT 30 attack speed! You want items that help you farm the end game items that combine into recipes and increase their bonuses! So in reality its going to take you maybe 15-16 minutes to get back to even. NOT TO MENTION that you might die easier without survivability items, and you might miss some last hits without extra damage. Thus it probably will take you AT LEAST 20+ minutes to get back into the positive. Lets say 10 minutes for Midas, then 20 minutes to get back to even. Then 20 more minutes to get 2k free gold. Is it worth delaying your initial 1900 gold by 30 minutes for 2k free gold at minute 50? No.

[Whalecore]

Not sure about Chronos, i tend to stay away from him at all costs :p
A well-farmed Chronos is sick late game.

[Flavius1]

how much does alch bones give to sell back? May justify the cost :)

[holytoledo]

Predator, Maliken, Valkyrie and Pestilence are all full carries

Hammerstorm I could see if people say he's semi, but I think he's good enough to be full as well

Puppet Master is definite semi-carry material, as are Defiler and Soul Reaper.

Jere fits with Puppet as semi-carry - even with Quelling Blade, his lack of moves like X Marks the Spot and Ghost Ship makes him inferior to carry Kunkka. He's still better as support 90% of the time.


You just haven't seen a good puppet master yet... hes hard to keep alive early but late game he does just as much if not more damage than most agi carries.

[ain]

crayze: its not about the attack speed. The ability to safely last hit the equivalent of 3 siege units or hard creep spawns every 100 seconds is enough to justify it imo. Yeah you don't need it if you can free farm, but if you get harassed a lot in the lane it's invaluable.

[Barahng]

Predator, Maliken, Valkyrie and Pestilence are all full carries

Hammerstorm I could see if people say he's semi, but I think he's good enough to be full as well

Puppet Master is definite semi-carry material, as are Defiler and Soul Reaper.

Jere fits with Puppet as semi-carry - even with Quelling Blade, his lack of moves like X Marks the Spot and Ghost Ship makes him inferior to carry Kunkka. He's still better as support 90% of the time.

If by full carries you mean hard carries, as in heroes that contribute nothing to a team before getting items, then none of those heroes are full/hard carries. Maybe Predator, but he's a decent addition to a gank with his Leap.

Hard carries are heroes like Wildsoul, Warbeast etc etc.

[crayze]

crayze: its not about the attack speed. The ability to safely last hit the equivalent of 3 siege units or hard creep spawns every 100 seconds is enough to justify it imo. Yeah you don't need it if you can free farm, but if you get harassed a lot in the lane it's invaluable.

If you're being harassed a lot in lane, 1900 gold becomes more and more of your total gold supply throughout the game, thus Midas becomes less useful. Put it this way: if you earn 19,000 gold throughout a 60 minute game, putting away 10% at the start for a small increase later on is better than if you earn only 3800 gold throughout a 60 minute game. In the second scenario you've literally given away half your total gold for the promise of a bit of gold later on. If you can't farm well because you're being harassed, you absolutely need that 1900 gold to a) stay alive from the harass and b) get a few last hits here and there. Hell, that 1900 gold might even be enough to make you jungle capable, which means you can legitimately farm if all the lanes are hogged by terrific harassers.