Competitive Hero Tiers V2.0.29 (work in progress)*updated*

[the`postman]

Competitive Hero Tier List
v 2.0.29



Carries


A-:pupp::flin::souls::valk::doct:Aluna:slit:
B-:madm::arac:Silhouette:corr::glad::pred::swif:
C-:fors::moon::mali::vind::defi:Nomad:sand::pand:
D-:mage::dark::chro::soulr::zeph::nigh::wild:
E-Warbeast,Scout,Bloodhunter
Supports
A-:andr::myrm::witc::glac:
B-:plag::deme::nymp::vood::jera:
C-:accu:Empath
D-None
Gankers/Initiators
A-:chip::bubb::thun::tort::wret::pebb:
B-:pyro::bomb::elec::poll:
C-:dead::ophe::gaun::devo::damp:
D-Blacksmith,Succubus,Fayde
Initiators/Armadons
A-:phar::hell::magm::behe::hamm:
B-:krak::tund::pest:
C-:temp::balp::engi::arma::mora:
D-Legionnaire,Keeper of the Forest,Rampage, Flux




Heroes are now sorted among tiers, best->worst



Thought this would be a fun post. These rankings are based on tournament level play. Of course it's all just my opinion so I expect there to be tons of disagreements but that's the point of the thread, start a discussion.

I had a hard time placing some of these heroes into a set category (lots of the gankers could be considered carries, there isn't a roamer category, no idea where to put dampeer) but try not to quibble too much over that unless you think it's a huge mistake. Another problem I had is the glut of D-Tier carries and C-tier Tanks/Initiators. You can decide for yourself how you think they should be organized.

A-tier Heroes are almost always either banned or picked
B-tier are all solid heroes that see play very frequently and are banned on occasion
C-tier heroes are all rosterable heroes that see play occasionally but are pretty much never banned
D-There are a ton of carries compared to the other roles. I didn't see it fit putting 15 of them in C-tier so I added an E-Tier and bumped a bunch of them down to D. A D-tier carry is better than a D-Tier support/intiate/ganker.
There are a few heroes (pesti, jere, kraken, accursed, probably more) That I rate higher than some might expect because I think they are powerful but they don't quite fit into the current meta game.


Show me your worst C&C

[RehcraM]

How can Aluna be trash. Awesome hero and in Dota she is nearly fp.

[P0NP0NP0N]

How can Aluna be trash. Awesome hero and in Dota she is nearly fp.
not the same hero as windrunner, most competitive players think she's trash from what i've seen on this forum.
OnT: a lot of questionable choices on that list

[JoOKie]

Actually more pros are starting to think that she's viable with the patch.

[MARCUS]

I agree with most but id say succubus is a ganker although still terrible and chipper should be A. Maybe swap andro with Glacius as well Andromeda is a lot stronger.

[Powzilla]

watt

[RehcraM]

not the same hero as windrunner, most competitive players think she's trash from what i've seen on this forum.
OnT: a lot of questionable choices on that list

Windrunner was trash before they started to pick her up. I dare to say the "pros" just don't know to play her yet. Wait and see she will be fp material I will bet.

[Revenant]

Andro should be in A tier

[TOPDECKED]

this list is fukin trash

[Vulpes]

Either you're using pick rates, or you're using Hero Potential.
If you go by pick rates, Tempest is at D, Elec higher than Pest, etc
If you go by potential, Tempest is S class..

Running Succubus under Supports is kinda.. eeeeh.

[Mercy]

I'm gonna go actually go through this cause it's 7 AM and I'm bored and can't sleep. These are just my opinions.

Carries:

:slit::flin: should be tier 1. Flint is an easy hero to play with strong potential for carry and easy to stick in a trilane. :slit:is picked up or banned 95% of the time because he is a stupidly good hero in the sidelane 1v1 cause of the trilane prevalence. :swif: would be lower tier for me, because he's good in laning phase but you need really nice babysitters for his trilane, which usually won't happen, and you'll get counterpicked hard as well by a ranged trilane. If you want to run him in an evenly matched game you need to really base bans and picks around him hardcore. :glad: is second to first tier, but hard to play properly to put out proper damage. Requires superior team coordination to match other carries who are auto attackers like flint or madman. :pred: is probably 3rd tier, as a single target melee carry with no aoe cept for ult. Stonehide is really good and he has a decent laning presence from leap, but too easy to kite. Good counterpick though, like vs an :arma: (but nobody will pick :arma: if there's a chance you'll counter them so hard) or against a pure caster trilane or something like that. :arac: I'm not sure about now, with the webshot change she can really **** on people 1v1. I could see potential for her to be in the sidelane 1v1 against slither and especially HB since carapace rapes him hard. She can also be a nice mid counterpick for the purpose of simply owning mid.


Supports:

:andr: is definitely top tier, picked up over other 600 range supports because the stun is so reliable, swap is so good vs all heros especially since it goes through bkb, and aurora is sick. Also really easy to roam with and can spend all money on wards and still use swap stun aurora and die, which is all she really needs to do. Staying alive for 10 seconds in a team fight with aura can make a big difference in team's damage output as well. :jera: can only be picked as last pick or if you've banned his counters, otherwise people like :engi::elec: rape him too hard. :plag: should be tier 2 imo, and :vind: is a counterpick hero or specific strat hero, so his tier is always questionable. :accu: could make a comeback with his buffs, but melee supporters don't fit well into these kind of trilane games we see; if people want to stick a melee in a trilane they'd rather go for someone who can take the role of initiator and who has some good lane presence offensively like :behe::magm:. Succubus is not a support, lol.

Gankers/initiators:

I think everyone in the top 2 tiers belongs in a tier 1 category. It's gonna be rare to get :thun::pebb: etc in a BP trilane game cause they'll either be banned or really good counterpicks like :chip: will be left on the board to stop you from using them. Most of these heros in this category are either picked because they're good 99% of the time, like :thun:, or can solo a sidelane 1v1 like :wret::bubb::valk:.

Initiators/tanks

Can't really break this into tiers in this sense, because all of your tier 2 heros are very situational and can't be assigned blanket values like that. I think :hamm: can be assigned a tier 1 rating though just for the ranged high damage aoe stun for trilaning and roaming. :pest: "fulfills the same role" but certainly can't trilane/roam like :hamm:. :phar::hell: are worthy of a first pick for their ability to solo the sidelane and to initiate without any items and disrupt team fights. I do not think :behe::magm: can be placed in the same tier as them. On second thought I'd just put :phar::hell: as tier 1 and :hamm::behe::magm: as tier 2 then everyone else lower. :tund::elec::temp::krak: are very situational but can be extremely strong too.

[RehcraM]

Either you're using pick rates, or you're using Hero Potential.
If you go by pick rates, Tempest is at D, Elec higher than Pest, etc
If you go by potential, Tempest is S class..

Running Succubus under Supports is kinda.. eeeeh.

Can you tell me then why tempest is picked in nearly all Dota games?

[the`postman]

Either you're using pick rates, or you're using Hero Potential.
If you go by pick rates, Tempest is at D, Elec higher than Pest, etc
If you go by potential, Tempest is S class..

Running Succubus under Supports is kinda.. eeeeh.
I tried to balance it between pick rates and hero potential, favoring pick rates more. Not sure if I'd put elec higher than pesti, don't think I've seen anyone besides MSI play him lately, but I was debating if elec should be B-tier or not.

[the`postman]

How can Aluna be trash. Awesome hero and in Dota she is nearly fp.
One, this isn't DotA, and two, after the most recent patch she might start getting played more but atm I haven't seen her in more than 2-3 competitive games.

[sweplayerdtf]

magmus too stronk tonk )

[Asway]

RIP Tempest :(

[Vulpes]

Can you tell me then why tempest is picked in nearly all Dota games?

I'm pretty sure you don't understand that S class is better than A.

[ImmortalTecz]

One, this isn't DotA, and two, after the most recent patch she might start getting played more but atm I haven't seen her in more than 2-3 competitive games.

Ofc, always takes weeks more the hero becomes competitive, Aluna is a hero with more than one function, the teams needs too learn her function/uses before they will pick her up.

[l8erade]

..











.








.

[l8erade]

Carries
A-:souls::madm::pupp::swif:
B-:flin::slit::arac::corr::pred:
C-:glad::fors::moon::sand::defi::pand:
D-:mage::mali::dark::chro::soulr::zeph::nigh::wild:
E-Warbeast,Scout,Bloodhunter
Supports
A-:witc::myrm::deme::andr::glac:
B-:vood::nymp::jera:
C-:plag::vind::accu:Empath
D-None
Gankers/Initiators
A-:wret::bubb::thun::doct::pebb::chip:
B-:bomb::tort::pyro::valk:
C-:dead::ophe::gaun::poll::devo::damp:
D-Aluna,Blacksmith,Succubus,Fayde
Initiators/Tanks
A-:phar::hell::hamm:
B-:magm::behe::krak::elec:
C-:pest::tund::temp::balp::engi::mora::arma:
D-Legionairre,Keeper of the Forest,Rampage



[Heroes are now sorted among tiers, best->worst]





first off id disagree with putting a hero like zephyr bottom tier carry, he can heal himself get his own farm in anylane really or jungle for that matter, nuke people, and a movement speed/evasion passive. arachna with the new buff has also become one of the strongest mids in the game its ridiculous so shes top tier for me, vindi and plague would also be top tier for me because of how well they affect the trilane/dual lane. a vindi can control the lane real well with sage's as well and plague with his deny
and initiators/tank it all comes down to the farm that they've had, some might not have amazing farm :behe: but they still manage to get that pk which makes him a push stopper. also id put repulsor as a carry just cause he can really well

[enche]

can people not say "this list is trash" and then not help
kthx

bump for good idear

[Hon_God]

I stopped looking when I saw KOTF as D rank.

[__praYeR]

clueless greek

[the`postman]

I stopped looking when I saw KOTF as D rank.
Please link a replay of KotF played in a tournament level game Hon_God.

[the`postman]

first off id disagree with putting a hero like zephyr bottom tier carry, he can heal himself get his own farm in anylane really or jungle for that matter, nuke people, and a movement speed/evasion passive. arachna with the new buff has also become one of the strongest mids in the game its ridiculous so shes top tier for me, vindi and plague would also be top tier for me because of how well they affect the trilane/dual lane. a vindi can control the lane real well with sage's as well and plague with his deny
and initiators/tank it all comes down to the farm that they've had, some might not have amazing farm :behe: but they still manage to get that pk which makes him a push stopper. also id put repulsor as a carry just cause he can really well

You can't just list a heroes abilities as justification for him being a certain tier. Arachna is a good hero, but I haven't seen her banned yet and she hasn't really been played much, hence the mid B-tier ranking (which I would consider top tier).
Vindicator is pretty much never played in a tri lane, the only times he is played is as a solo mid type hero, he's too squishy with no disable/escape to go tri vs. tri. Plague is certainly not in the same tier as ws/myrm/andro and probably not even nymph/jere.

[KalurO]

:elec: is not an initiator/tank and not a rank B at that, put him at the gankers.


Please link a replay of KotF played in a tournament level game Hon_God.

Phe`V went mid with KotF once and raped the entire game. Yes this was in a tournament game. It's a bit difficult to find that game nowadays since Phe`V had a namechange and/or gave his account away.

Edit: found it -> http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/replays.php?game=58&show=details&id=138668

also I wouldnt consider The dark Lady, Chronos and soul reaper D ranks.. especially not since you apparently decided puppet is an A rank.

[rightclick]

I stopped looking when I saw KOTF as D rank.
this isn't saying very much considering kotf is the second-to-last hero on the list

[the`postman]

:elec: is not an initiator/tank and not a rank B at that, put him at the gankers.



Phe`V went mid with KotF once and raped the entire game. Yes this was in a tournament game. It's a bit difficult to find that game nowadays since Phe`V had a namechange and/or gave his account away.

Edit: found it -> http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/replays.php?game=58&show=details&id=138668

also I wouldnt consider The dark Lady, Chronos and soul reaper D ranks.. especially not since you apparently decided puppet is an A rank.
A game from a year ago is not relevant to the current meta game.
Puppet is probably the most powerful ranged carry in the game in 2.0.18, he was one of the few not affected by the geo bane nerf. Keep in mind this is based heavily on how frequently the heroes are played (dark lady/chronos/sr are essentially never played in the new wave of aggressive triple stun trilanes).

[khao_]

Glad is top tier. His whip + ult rapes face late game and can really be put mid/tri-laned or whatever. Shame he's not picked up as much as he used to.

[Cyann]

first off id disagree with putting a hero like zephyr bottom tier carry, he can heal himself get his own farm in anylane really or jungle for that matter, nuke people, and a movement speed/evasion passive. arachna with the new buff has also become one of the strongest mids in the game its ridiculous so shes top tier for me, vindi and plague would also be top tier for me because of how well they affect the trilane/dual lane. a vindi can control the lane real well with sage's as well and plague with his deny
and initiators/tank it all comes down to the farm that they've had, some might not have amazing farm :behe: but they still manage to get that pk which makes him a push stopper. also id put repulsor as a carry just cause he can really well

You have misunderstood how tier lists works.

[Hon_God]

A game from a year ago is not relevant to the current meta game.
Puppet is probably the most powerful ranged carry in the game in 2.0.18, he was one of the few not affected by the geo bane nerf. Keep in mind this is based heavily on how frequently the heroes are played (dark lady/chronos/sr are essentially never played in the new wave of aggressive triple stun trilanes).

You are missing the main point here: You did not include laning phase in ANY of your heroes, which is 75% of the matchup.

The initial laning phase with roaming/ganking/trilanes is by far the most important part of the game, it sets up teamfights midgame and early game farm sets up a teams strat (ie push/turtle and farm/stack and teamfight/etc.)

Having a hero that is as dominant as KOTF in the laning phase vs ANY mid hero, plus who has incredible teamfight/map vision/ganking/initiating as a "D" level just goes to show you are using flawed reasoning to 'rank' heroes.

Just because you don't see it often doesn't mean it isn't an extremely useful and viable hero (ie Ophelia/Chen) in the hands of someone who uses it so well it has to be permabanned in matchups.

[klejf]

Armadon the allmighty initiator

walk in, load dem batteriez full

[rightclick]

This is what separates good players from great ones.

The key is to watch the timing on all skills, the manual cast of sticky bomb detonation and follow my bottle charges.

99 out of 100 kids would have died here without killing either.

[Hon_God]

This is what separates good players from great ones.

The key is to watch the timing on all skills, the manual cast of sticky bomb detonation and follow my bottle charges.

99 out of 100 kids would have died here without killing either.

And that is why you belong in the 99.

[the`postman]

You are missing the main point here: You did not include laning phase in ANY of your heroes, which is 75% of the matchup.

The initial laning phase with roaming/ganking/trilanes is by far the most important part of the game, it sets up teamfights midgame and early game farm sets up a teams strat (ie push/turtle and farm/stack and teamfight/etc.)

Having a hero that is as dominant as KOTF in the laning phase vs ANY mid hero, plus who has incredible teamfight/map vision/ganking/initiating as a "D" level just goes to show you are using flawed reasoning to 'rank' heroes.

Just because you don't see it often doesn't mean it isn't an extremely useful and viable hero (ie Ophelia/Chen) in the hands of someone who uses it so well it has to be permabanned in matchups.

How did I "not include the laning phase"

But you're obviously trolling, KotF is ****ing terrible in the laning phase and all of his abilities are easily countered by good players. And yes, the fact that a hero isn't played does mean he isn't extremely "useful and viable".

[Andreen]

Cool idea putting this on a list, would be kewl to see it month by month maybe to see the meta changing?

Imo don't mind the "omg he doesn't belong there", ofc this is impossible for everyone to have the exact same oppinion on.

+1

[Hon_God]

How did I "not include the laning phase"

But you're obviously trolling, KotF is ****ing terrible in the laning phase and all of his abilities are easily countered by good players. And yes, the fact that a hero isn't played does mean he isn't extremely "useful and viable".

Your hero categories do not put any emphasis on high quality laning heroes. Tree mid was and still is extremely popular in the Dota competitive scene, and is becoming more popular. As a specialized hero he counters push strats, forces dust, always wins his lane vs any matchup mid, gives free vision and has an incredibly good teamfight ult.

You have heroes under extremely vague categories "Tank/Initiator vs Gank/Initiator" without giving any indication of what 'good' means to you. Anyone can search for most picked heroes, but a team selects heroes to work together. If you picked all A heroes, that doesn't make a good team, while a team of all D heroes with synergy would easily win.

Your idea is sound, but your categorizing is not, and you have given no reasoning as to whether or not you even considered ranking these heroes based on the most important part of the game, the laning phase.

[the`postman]

I appreciate your attempt at constructive criticism, I've read your previous posts and I'm guessing it's stupidity not a troll so I'll respond constructively.
Your hero categories do not put any emphasis on high quality laning heroes. Tree mid was and still is extremely popular in the Dota competitive scene, and is becoming more popular. As a specialized hero he counters push strats, forces dust, always wins his lane vs any matchup mid, gives free vision and has an incredibly good teamfight ult.

This isn't dota, if he starts being picked up in tournament games/high level scrims then you'll have a point until then he's a hero who has two extremely counterable abilities and an ult easily removed by almost all carries.

You have heroes under extremely vague categories "Tank/Initiator vs Gank/Initiator" without giving any indication of what 'good' means to you. Anyone can search for most picked heroes, but a team selects heroes to work together. If you picked all A heroes, that doesn't make a good team, while a team of all D heroes with synergy would easily win.
This is entirely incorrect, a team of almost all A-tier heroes with sprinkled B heroes makes up essentially every competitive lineup that you'll see.

Your idea is sound, but your categorizing is not, and you have given no reasoning as to whether or not you even considered ranking these heroes based on the most important part of the game, the laning phase.Setting the categories was definitely one of the hardest parts but I think it works like this. I might try another version later grouped differently.
I still don't understand why you think the laning phase isn't being considered.

[hannskii]

this "list" has so many wrong in it, i cant see the rights

[Hon_God]

I appreciate your attempt at constructive criticism, I've read your previous posts and I'm guessing it's stupidity not a troll so I'll respond constructively.

This isn't dota, if he starts being picked up in tournament games/high level scrims then you'll have a point until then he's a hero who has two extremely counterable abilities and an ult easily removed by almost all carries.
This is entirely incorrect, a team of almost all A-tier heroes with sprinkled B heroes makes up essentially every competitive lineup that you'll see.
Setting the categories was definitely one of the hardest parts but I think it works like this. I might try another version later grouped differently.
I still don't understand why you think the laning phase isn't being considered.

I'm trying not to point out specific instances where you have ranked incorrectly on a number of levels, but show that your current grouping systems are flat out wrong.

Right now it is an opinion based ranking, there is absolutely no proof you have ranked these based on anything but your opinion.

[MiniDon]

Can you tell me then why tempest is picked in nearly all Dota games?

Different games... theres just 2 many counters 2 him in hon.. about 20 heroes can stop his ulti through shrunkenhead.

[MiniDon]

:elec: is not an initiator/tank and not a rank B at that, put him at the gankers.



Phe`V went mid with KotF once and raped the entire game. Yes this was in a tournament game. It's a bit difficult to find that game nowadays since Phe`V had a namechange and/or gave his account away.

Edit: found it -> http://www.gamereplays.org/heroesofnewerth/replays.php?game=58&show=details&id=138668

also I wouldnt consider The dark Lady, Chronos and soul reaper D ranks.. especially not since you apparently decided puppet is an A rank.



Kotf is still d. why? only used 1 game. :OOOOOO this guy made a list of the most recurring heroes = the ones that are picked up most games, the reason why kotf is d is not cuz hes bad its cuz hes never picked in comp play, just 1 or 2 games... Hell bloodhunter has seen more comp games than kotf

[Vulpes]

Different games... theres just 2 many counters 2 him in hon.. about 20 heroes can stop his ulti through shrunkenhead.

Rofl.

[the`postman]

I'm trying not to point out specific instances where you have ranked incorrectly on a number of levels, but show that your current grouping systems are flat out wrong.

Right now it is an opinion based ranking, there is absolutely no proof you have ranked these based on anything but your opinion.
It is mostly my opinion (I state that in the op), but if you've watched any honcast/gamereplays games (or spec'd any tourny games) you'd see that 90% of the picks and bans are the A/B-Tier heroes.

[Mellow]

Honestly, a tier list that's not 100% based on amount of time a hero got picked is worthless.

[the`postman]

Honestly, a tier list that's not 100% based on amount of time a hero got picked is worthless.
Well there is no way of knowing exactly how many times each hero is picked in a top tier game so you have to use some intuition. The idea of this is to get input from as many people as possible and balance that with how often they are picked to try and create an accurate list.

[Mellow]

Yeah yeah. Well at least it's based on usage (because honestly usage is very hard to find out), and you're ignoring most of the trash posts in the thread saying "Omg xxx is a good hero really!" so this is a better tier list than the vast majority.

[TDA101]

A usage tier should have no more than 3 tiers
A potential tier shouldn't exist.

DONE AND DONE.

[Mellow]

A usage tier should have 4 tiers, Good, mediocre, bad and a seperate tier for the heroes that are blatantly overpowered atm and permabanned/picked (think of old engie, but also HB and Blacksmith for a couple of patches)

[the`postman]

A usage tier should have 4 tiers, Good, mediocre, bad and a seperate tier for the heroes that are blatantly overpowered atm and permabanned/picked (think of old engie, but also HB and Blacksmith for a couple of patches)
That's essentially what this is, A=perma ban, B=Good heroes C=Situational heroes D=Bad heroes

[se`busca]

There is actually a category labeled "Tanks"?

[Mno]

There is actually a category labeled "Tanks"?

pick tank pls no focus my elder parasite phase boot thunderclaw flint

[Yup]

How did ophelia get into the ganker/init?

i don't find her as a ganker nor someone that can use a pk.

[Mcfatback]

swiftblade not top tier

[Hax]

How did ophelia get into the ganker/init?

i don't find her as a ganker nor someone that can use a pk.

Ophelia is a ganker. What do you do in the laning phase? Farm a doombringer?

[Hornet]

Holy crap this list is awful

[the`postman]

swiftblade not top tier
What other carry gets banned?


There is actually a category labeled "Tanks"?
Only way I could think of to describe balphagore/armadon.

[HighwayStar]

Rampage-aaa

[Dumi420]

loving the competitive players trolling
and getting ignored by the OP hahah

i kinda like this list a lot more than most i've seen though

hon_god is bad

[Omnigrunt]

Well, at least someone is making an attempt here.

1 - There are no tanks in HoN. Some heroes have more HP than others. Some heroes are designed to be in the center of combat. But no heroes are considered valuable based mostly on how much natural HP/armor they have.

2 - Melee carries and ranged carries belong in two separate categories, because IMHO teams think of them, draft them, and lane them in very different ways. Having a melee carry versus not having a melee carry is a fundamental decision every team makes, for better or for worse; whereas in virtually all games some kind of ranged carry is a given.

3 - Just to examine supports, :nymp: is closer to A due to her long range and unique map control. :witc: is closer to B due to a weaker trilane presence (and unimpressive Power Drain), and :jera: should always be C due to his just plain bad lane control and the continual threat of :elec: :gaun: counterpicks.

[Dumi420]

weaker trilane presence?













lul

[klejf]

Witch slayer has a bad skill

level it

rank b

profit

[Vulpes]

Congratz on your 4,500th post!!
We all love you and hope you enlighten this forum for many more posts!!
<3

Hahahahaha what the ****. Yeah, I love you too. But this is kinda scary in a way.
Are you going into my profile on a daily basis, or is there an actual option to see the # of Posts easily?

[GucciGod]

Why wouldn't you post your research on this? Does it exist? You used the word "opinion" so that's kinda scary.

We want to see numbers, sample size, and names of teams sampled (and how many of each).

[the`postman]

Well, at least someone is making an attempt here.

1 - There are no tanks in HoN. Some heroes have more HP than others. Some heroes are designed to be in the center of combat. But no heroes are considered valuable based mostly on how much natural HP/armor they have.
Thanks I realize that this isn't WoW, you'll notice it says Initiators first, I just threw in tank so people wouldn't say "OMG HOW IS ARMADON AN INITIATOR???"

2 - Melee carries and ranged carries belong in two separate categories, because IMHO teams think of them, draft them, and lane them in very different ways. Having a melee carry versus not having a melee carry is a fundamental decision every team makes, for better or for worse; whereas in virtually all games some kind of ranged carry is a given.
I disagree, if you separate out melee carries from ranged carries you make it so that the melee carries appear much better than they actually are.

3 - Just to examine supports, :nymp: is closer to A due to her long range and unique map control. :witc: is closer to B due to a weaker trilane presence (and unimpressive Power Drain), and :jera: should always be C due to his just plain bad lane control and the continual threat of :elec: :gaun: counterpicks.WS is undoubtedly the best support hero in the game, you really can't argue that point (could possibly say he's second). Nymphora is close to A, that's why shes second in the B-Tier. And the jereziah point is arguable, he really doesn't fit well into the current meta game but he is an extraordinarily powerful hero, I think he fits at the end of B-tier but he could be shifted to start of C-tier.

[the`postman]

Why wouldn't you post your research on this? Does it exist? You used the word "opinion" so that's kinda scary.

We want to see numbers, sample size, and names of teams sampled (and how many of each).
Sadly there are no numbers, just the fact that I've watched almost every honcast/gamereplays game over the past two or so months (excluding fun casts) and specced/watched replay of a number of competitive inhouses. That's why I posted this saying it's a work in progress, I'd love to see other peoples opinions, I've been shifting around the tiers quite a bit.

[Fashionisto]

Witch slayer has a bad skill

level it

rank b

profit


weaker trilane presence?

lul

Witch is actually really, really overrated in this game. Why do you think no one picks Lion in competitive DotA unless he's going middle or the last support on the board? His skills are very level dependent compared to other trilane supports and cost ungodly amounts of mana. It's completely analogous to these "top teams" picking Magmus over Behemoth or even Hammer. Not sure if it's coming from a place of ignorance or not caring, but it sucks to see it.

[Vulpes]

Witch isn't overrated. His Trilane capabilities are, yes. His solo ability is heavily underrated.

[Fashionisto]

Witch isn't overrated. His Trilane capabilities are, yes. His solo ability is heavily underrated.

Right, I said "in this game" and he's primarily used and perceived as a god-like trilane hero, which is what I was referring to. He's an exceptional solo.

[MathLc]

Congratz on your 4,500th post!!
We all love you and hope you enlighten this forum for many more posts!!
<3


4500 ? damn vulpes, it is time to stop trolling

[awayish]

are you serious and retarded or are you joking and bad?

[the`postman]

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=757351
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=755105
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=756669
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=756219
http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=756092
http://www.fileplay.net/channels/honcast/honcasttournaments/13049/honor-tournament-invitational-winners-finals-eg-vs-msi-game-1-msi-vent-cast
http://www.fileplay.net/channels/honcast/13019/sk-gaming-tournament-group-stage-ok-vs-empr-game-1
http://www.fileplay.net/channels/honcast/13024/sk-gaming-tournament-group-stage-ok-vs-empr-game-2

Here's some data, pretty much every honcast/gamereplays game from the past week or so. 95% of the games are entirely A/B-tier with every A-Tier hero being picked or banned.

[Pamphlet]

Hahahahaha what the ****. Yeah, I love you too. But this is kinda scary in a way.
Are you going into my profile on a daily basis, or is there an actual option to see the # of Posts easily?

Damn right there is. (Hint: Public Profile)

[Vulpes]

Damn right there is. (Hint: Public Profile)

... Reread my post please. I won't even bother commenting on this.

[Nasty``]

OP must be trolling, this is just the most idiotic **** ive ever read

[Lezrach]

Uhm so like i just look at your profile to see interesting topics every once in a while, and i noticed you had 4,499 posts, so i was like, oh lol let's check soon again to be able to post a cool message on your 4,500th post ^^

[jackisback]

damn this is so repetitive. every few months some kid comes out of the bush and creates a potential "hero tier list" based on bias/own opinion, thinks he+his list is special, gets tons of negative posts, gets flamed and still keeps going

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN

[the`postman]

damn this is so repetitive. every few months some kid comes out of the bush and creates a potential "hero tier list" based on bias/own opinion, thinks he+his list is special, gets tons of negative posts, gets flamed and still keeps going

WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO LEARN

Every few months the metagame changes? This is based almost entirely on what I've observed from watched honcast/gamereplays, nothing to do with my own bias.

There really aren't as many negative posts as I'd figured, I'd say it's only been like 35% trolls which isn't bad for C&C at all.

[jackisback]

then your observation is as bad as this list is a joke.
if you cant see that your list is both flawed and wrong on so many ends, starting with a potential list, also the rating of heroes that is so obvious on some, youre beyond help.
i mean, srsly, this thread is already 4 pages long and from the first posts on people have tried to tell you youre just wrong.


putting hag on the top ganker list because zekaykay owned 3-4 games recently with it and other heroes that have been raping for the whole time since the metagame changed (every few months according to you) are listed below, how is that not bias?

[the`postman]

then your observation is as bad as this list is a joke.
if you cant see that your list is both flawed and wrong on so many ends, starting with a potential list, also the rating of heroes that is so obvious on some, youre beyond help.
i mean, srsly, this thread is already 4 pages long and from the first posts on people have tried to tell you youre just wrong.
Point out one of them?


putting hag on the top ganker list because zekaykay owned 3-4 games recently with it and other heroes that have been raping for the whole time since the metagame changed (every few months according to you) are listed below, how is that not bias?
What? hag has been a top tier hero since hon came out, she might not be absolute #1 but she's definitely top three. And btw, have you watched mr. swish play her recently?

This shows your ignorance not my bias.

[jackisback]

mr swish is zekaykay. hag has not been a top hero ever since hon came out, he has been picked sometimes and both done well and done bad, recent ownage in 3-4 games by one player does not count for much.

"point out one of them". swiftblade above both madman AND flint? you serious? LOL. witchslayer "support"? contradicting yourself with the metagame changing argument, as hon goes more towards dota (obviously) and people see that lion is a bad trilane support except you play major kill lanes (even then there are better heroes lately) and much more of a ganker.
your whole system is ****ed up, too. magmus for example IS a ganker/initiator, not a "tank", and also can/is often played as backup support. same with behemoth. he is like one of the best ganking setup heroes, a backup support and an initiator yet you list him under initiators/tanks. while torturer is listed as a ganker (lol?).
the thing is, YOU CANT DO SUCH GENERALIZATIONS. NOT ONLY DO TEAMS PLAY HEROES DIFFERENTLY, ALMOST ALL HERO ROLES EXCEPT CARRIES (AND EVEN THEIR POWER CAN BE CATEGORIZED IN GAME TIME) CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE PROGRESS OF THE GAME. YOUR LIST MAKES NO SENSE.

but please, come up with your "ever since hon came out" argument again to contradict yourself even more. youre no different from the usual kids that think they have any kind of special observation skill and post their hero tier threads weekly in general forums and think they are oh so right.

[the`postman]

Hope I'm not being trolled.

mr swish is zekaykay. hag has not been a top hero ever since hon came out, he has been picked sometimes and both done well and done bad, recent ownage in 3-4 games by one player does not count for much.
So are you disagreeing with the fact that hag is an A-tier ganker? Because that makes you the only person in the thread.

"point out one of them". swiftblade above both madman AND flint? you serious?You're allowed to have a different opinion, that's the whole point of this thread, I didn't say once that my word was gospel. Swiftblade and Madman are both A-Tier, sorting them amongst tiers is just extra, obviously there's no way to quantify the exact difference between them, I've seen swift picked/banned more lately but it,s close, hence the fact they are the same tier and I've moved them around already. Flint is top of B-Tier and could possibly be A. Your major disagreement is over one placing?

LOL. witchslayer "support"? contradicting yourself with the metagame changing argument, as hon goes more towards dota (obviously) and people see that lion is a bad trilane support except you play major kill lanes (even then there are better heroes lately) and much more of a ganker.
your whole system is ****ed up, too. magmus for example IS a ganker/initiator, not a "tank", and also can/is often played as backup support. same with behemoth. he is like one of the best ganking setup heroes, a backup support and an initiator yet you list him under initiators/tanks. while torturer is listed as a ganker (lol?).
WS is clearly played more frequently as support but yes she can also be used as a solo mid. Did you read where I said that it was hard to put heroes into set categories since they can be played in different ways?
Magmus and Behemoth are both initiators mid game/late game and roamers early game, do you disagree with that? I put torturer under gankers because he is played primarily as roamer/tri lane support but can also be played as a solo. Where do you think he should be?


the thing is, YOU CANT DO SUCH GENERALIZATIONS. NOT ONLY DO TEAMS PLAY HEROES DIFFERENTLY, ALMOST ALL HERO ROLES EXCEPT CARRIES (AND EVEN THEIR POWER CAN BE CATEGORIZED IN GAME TIME) CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE PROGRESS OF THE GAME. YOUR LIST MAKES NO SENSE.
Obviously it's hard to put heroes in to specific categories, I address that in the OP. If your biggest complaint is flint being top of B-Tier instead of bottom of A-Tier and a few heroes put in a category that you disagree with I don't see how that means that the list makes no sense. It means we have a slight disagreement in opinion.

Going to quote this from the OP

Thought this would be a fun post. These rankings are based on tournament level play. Of course it's all just my opinion so I expect there to be tons of disagreements but that's the point of the thread, start a discussion.

I had a hard time placing some of these heroes into a set category (lots of the gankers could be considered carries, no idea where to put dampeer) but try not to quibble too much over that unless you think it's a huge mistake.I don't get why you are being so hostile. The point of this thread was to get the opinions of other people to try and create an agreed upon tier list. If everyone agreed entirely with the initial list then the thread would be pointless.

[jackisback]

you just dont understand, do you? holy ****ing ****, you people are all the same.

as vulpes already said on the first page and made clear in his own thread, you can not do a hero tier list without the right data. that would mean youd have to take a list of every pick and ban in every pro game from patch to patch. which you obviously didnt, you posted some random games and say "in every game i watch this/that happens", which is wrong if you do not have the data to prove it. this shows especially in what you say about flint, a major patch ago (before puppet change) he was (besides madman) the highest banned/picked range carry in probably every game, while heroes like ss would (and still are) sometimes ignored by top teams (preference of teams, read on below for understanding what that means).
speaking about that patch, that was also the time where torturer and hammerstorm got changed and witch slayer has been rarely picked up as a component for a trilane since then (because tort, myrm, hammer and voodoo have been picked MORE), yet he is top of the tier on your list.
you have no real time span for your metagame change, so you just implement hero tiers from different metagame changes in your list, which is just wrong. puppet has been picked up since realignment and made his way to one of the most dominant carries in the game, that is correct. in the meantime, heroes like witch have lost their presence (ignored by you) but are according to your list still #1.
how does thas make sense?

swift picks/bans are again PREFERENCE against teams who seem to run him more likely and teams who are not. you can not GENERALIZE a hero that 2 teams in the competetive scene are known for running often (he also has been nerfed again so he is actually a bad hero now, as seen by the MSI EG series) as a top pick for the whole scene.
there would be so much more to do to make a correct pick/ban data list because there are too many variables. its a major and difficult piece of work to accomplish and has to be updated frequently, too. events, patches, anything where hero picks start to differ.
people in dota have accepted this fact a long time ago, but sadly this is not dota, so hon will be haunted from time to time again by people that think they can make a personal tier list and everyone should take it as the real deal. when the real deal would be 100times more work.
but you probably will not understand this, because youre stupid. this is not meant to be an insult (well, it may be), its just that you are seemingly not intelligent enough to see why your list does not work, but in your own dimension of intelligence it makes perfect sense. now go ahead and start whining about me attacking your intelligence.

[PuK]

Every few months the metagame changes? This is based almost entirely on what I've observed from watched honcast/gamereplays, nothing to do with my own bias.

There really aren't as many negative posts as I'd figured, I'd say it's only been like 35% trolls which isn't bad for C&C at all.

Because all the good players, when they see your post (for those who don't just burst out laughing) in the first 5-10 sec they get this kind of "revolted" feeling (because what you post makes no sense) and they want to reply, so they click on the reply button, but then that's when they realise that you just have no clue what you're talking about, so 90% of them are just gonna close the thread, the rest are just gonna hit the "post" button and post what they had time to write during those 5 sec, and the result is stuff like this:


watt


There is actually a category labeled "Tanks"?

[jackisback]

nicely said puk

[the`postman]

you just dont understand, do you? holy ****ing ****, you people are all the same.

as vulpes already said on the first page and made clear in his own thread, you can not do a hero tier list without the right data. that would mean youd have to take a list of every pick and ban in every pro game from patch to patch. which you obviously didnt, you posted some random games and say "in every game i watch this/that happens", which is wrong if you do not have the data to prove it. this shows especially in what you say about flint, a major patch ago (before puppet change) he was (besides madman) the highest banned/picked range carry in probably every game, while heroes like ss would (and still are) sometimes ignored by top teams (preference of teams, read on below for understanding what that means).
speaking about that patch, that was also the time where torturer and hammerstorm got changed and witch slayer has been rarely picked up as a component for a trilane since then (because tort, myrm, hammer and voodoo have been picked MORE), yet he is top of the tier on your list.
you have no real time span for your metagame change, so you just implement hero tiers from different metagame changes in your list, which is just wrong. puppet has been picked up since realignment and made his way to one of the most dominant carries in the game, that is correct. in the meantime, heroes like witch have lost their presence (ignored by you) but are according to your list still #1.
how does thas make sense?

swift picks/bans are again PREFERENCE against teams who seem to run him more likely and teams who are not. you can not GENERALIZE a hero that 2 teams in the competetive scene are known for running often (he also has been nerfed again so he is actually a bad hero now, as seen by the MSI EG series) as a top pick for the whole scene.
there would be so much more to do to make a correct pick/ban data list because there are too many variables. its a major and difficult piece of work to accomplish and has to be updated frequently, too. events, patches, anything where hero picks start to differ.
people in dota have accepted this fact a long time ago, but sadly this is not dota, so hon will be haunted from time to time again by people that think they can make a personal tier list and everyone should take it as the real deal. when the real deal would be 100times more work.
but you probably will not understand this, because youre stupid. this is not meant to be an insult (well, it may be), its just that you are seemingly not intelligent enough to see why your list does not work, but in your own dimension of intelligence it makes perfect sense. now go ahead and start whining about me attacking your intelligence.


Ok now we're getting somewhere.
I understand where you're coming from a lot more now, and I see why you're angry but I think you missed my intention. You're right, a tier list will never be perfect unless you have usage stats for every single game, and even then since teams prefer different heroes and different strategies so a hero that's A-tier for one team might not even be on another teams radar.

Your point about SB makes a lot of sense to me, I think I was over rating him because of a small sample size of teams that I saw running him, but he's pretty much the only melee tri-lane carry I've seen played recently.
I did this originally because I was bored at 2 am and thought it would be a fun idea. I didn't think that this would become some sort of official list of the best and worst heroes that everyone would follow. Just thought it would start an interesting discussion (which hey, it did :D).

[Bootsmid]

Because all the good players, when they see your post (for those who don't just burst out laughing) in the first 5-10 sec they get this kind of "revolted" feeling (because what you post makes no sense) and they want to reply, so they click on the reply button, but then that's when they realise that you just have no clue what you're talking about, so 90% of them are just gonna close the thread, the rest are just gonna hit the "post" button and post what they had time to write during those 5 sec, and the result is stuff like this:

watt

[the`postman]

Reorganzied it again to try and make it entirely based on pick rate

[Oiphal]

Much better now. I don't know if I would put slither in the carry category though, he's run solo and occasionally run as support.
Also, really, Tb deserves his own ganker tier at the top. Spellshards just make him so broken.

[Vulpes]

Vindi so well placed in "Carries".

[Mellow]

Armadon is a carry yo, he doesn't even do the same thing as any of the other heroes in the tank/initiator list.

And tempest is ganker/initiator if you play him correctly and don't afk and faceroll till pkey

[QKO]

Hellbringer should not be an initiator. His ult isn't up nearly enough for that to work out. He can be considered a tank, but he's more of a support hero. Same with KotF. And I agree with Hon_God: just because clowns don't pick a hero, doesn't make the hero weak. KotF has some very strong properties that can be beneficial to any team and in some cases are hard counters to the opposing team. He forces support to carry dust and a hatchet and about twice every 5 minutes he can hold opponents only allowing them to cast spells.

[Pimpmuckl]

First of all, please put torturer in the Carry section, Tort+Hammer+x trilane works wonders and in the tournaments and scrims i play with vfs we face bans nearly always on him if we have 2nd pick.

Now about hb, of course he is an initiator, what else would he be, insane range on a even more insane aoe with a small stun. Pair him with a strong follow up, say magmus, ss, something like that and there ya go. Mid and Late game where you need heroes who can initiate he will have his ult up for most clashes so it's all ok about him initiating. HOWEVER if he as NO follow up at all, he is bshit.

And one more thing about all this, you can not directly say this hero does x, you have to react to the solo lanes of the enemy. If he already has hb you can not just pick bubbles just because you need initiation, bubbles will get shitblasted of the lane and he will loose it insanely hard, no need to do it. So i think the discussion with hero x beeing not good at what he should be is nifty, you need some one to beat hero y so you pick x and if he can initiate with a frkin deamon then it's all gud.

[Killda]

Elec is an A-tier ganker. Not a B-tier initiator. If you don't know why, watch some replays.

[MeowMiauMeow]

Slither in gankers.

Nymph should be A tier. Her ult is just so broken conceptually for her not to be.

[Bdiz]

all competitive players will agree with me [except the trolls] when i say that


S CLASS = Asway on :Zeph: dat burd guy

A CLASS = everything else because asway #1

[Micromancer]

DR not under carry but Vindi is :/

[Sheapy]

The reason enigma (Tempest) is picked so much in DotA is because of his ability to solo a trilane with relative ease. Most people will just grab 10 clarities on him, minion skill your own ranged creep and deny exp.

[the`postman]

Elec is an A-tier ganker. Not a B-tier initiator. If you don't know why, watch some replays.
Elec is never banned, therefore not worthy of A-tier, he probably should be in the second group though.

First of all, please put torturer in the Carry section, Tort+Hammer+x trilane works wonders and in the tournaments and scrims i play with vfs we face bans nearly always on him if we have 2nd pick.

Tort is played as carry, ward *****, and solo mid, people are going to complain no matter what category he is in.

Slither in gankers.

Nymph should be A tier. Her ult is just so broken conceptually for her not to be.
I've seen slither played much more as a passive farmer early than a roaming ganker. He almost always is top two gpm on his team.

DR not under carry but Vindi is :/
Dr. probably should be in the carry section, hard to classify the solo mid int's since lots of them have carry potential. Vindi is in carry because on the off chance he's been played it's almost always as a solo farming hero, rather than a trilane support.

[MeowMiauMeow]

Elec is never banned, therefore not worthy of A-tier, he probably should be in the second group though.

Tort is played as carry, ward *****, and solo mid, people are going to complain no matter what category he is in.

I've seen slither played much more as a passive farmer early than a roaming ganker. He almost always is top two gpm on his team.

Dr. probably should be in the carry section, hard to classify the solo mid int's since lots of them have carry potential. Vindi is in carry because on the off chance he's been played it's almost always as a solo farming hero, rather than a trilane support.

Meh, shades of grey I suppose, in regards to slither.

As for the rest, most heroes can play multiple roles, DR is a carry, but he can also gank and initiate.

Why making a tier list of this sort is useless for HoN/DotA.

[_KaiZer]

i think the list is pretty good. it might be good to remove the categories (ganker, carry, etc) because it just gives people another thing to disagree on, and is completely irrelevant to the actual data. it would prob work better in a grid where you could select roles to organize the heroes by, and then you could place them in multiple roles

[QKO]

There is actually a category labeled "Tanks"?
He probably removed it, but that category should have some heroes found in other categories. All it says is "this hero is hard to kill". It informs the viewer that this hero has some capabilities that other heroes do not(like running into a 5 man team solo and surviving).

[Josefin96]

The categorization is really stupid.

[Pimpmuckl]

all competitive players will agree with me [except the trolls] when i say that


S CLASS = Asway on :Zeph: dat burd guy

A CLASS = everything else because asway #1

1. This as OP.
2. Lock Thread.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Can u stop talk about S Class? Wtb GSL Finals NOW FFS.

[JAH`]

This categorization of different heroes is fundamentally flawed, almost no hero is better or worse then another hero. It is simply how one hero fits into a team composition.

Their are only 3 tiers, underpowered(~10%), overpowered(~2%), and balanced(~88%)

[Jezu]

SW and Defi should be in B imho. Nymph and Glaci in A, and Bombardier at B, coz he is pretty rarely picked / banned tbh.

You should basically remove the roles and just make a list, because the roling for certain heroes cant be done on just one category.

[footstool]

worst categories ever. you need to take lanes into consideration u big time noob

[Ninaran]

Can you tell me then why tempest is picked in nearly all Dota games?

This isn't DotA.

[Vulpes]

Yeah, people here suck.

[MiniDon]

Competitive Hero Tier List
v 2.0.18



Carries


A-:souls::slit::madm::pupp::swif::flin:
B-:arac::corr::glad::pred:
C-:fors::moon::vind::sand::defi::mali::pand:
D-:mage::dark::chro::soulr::zeph::nigh::wild:
E-Warbeast,Scout,Bloodhunter
Supports
A-:witc::myrm::deme::andr:
B-:vood::nymp::glac::plag:
C-:jera::accu:Empath
D-None
Gankers/Initiators
A-:bubb::thun::chip::doct::wret::pebb::bomb:
B-:tort::pyro::valk::elec:
C-:dead::ophe::gaun::poll::devo::damp:
D-Aluna,Blacksmith,Succubus,Fayde
Initiators/Armadons
A-:phar::hell::hamm:
B-:behe::magm::pest::tund::krak:
C-:temp::balp::engi::mora::arma:
D-Legionnaire,Keeper of the Forest,Rampage



Heroes are now sorted among tiers, best->worst



Thought this would be a fun post. These rankings are based on tournament level play. Of course it's all just my opinion so I expect there to be tons of disagreements but that's the point of the thread, start a discussion.

I had a hard time placing some of these heroes into a set category (lots of the gankers could be considered carries, there isn't a roamer category, no idea where to put dampeer) but try not to quibble too much over that unless you think it's a huge mistake. Another problem I had is the glut of D-Tier carries and C-tier Tanks/Initiators. You can decide for yourself how you think they should be organized.

A-tier Heroes are almost always either banned or picked
B-tier are all solid heroes that see play very frequently and are banned on occasion
C-tier heroes are all rosterable heroes that see play occasionally but are pretty much never banned
D-There are a ton of carries compared to the other roles. I didn't see it fit putting 15 of them in C-tier so I added an E-Tier and bumped a bunch of them down to D. A D-tier carry is better than a D-Tier support/intiate/ganker.
There are a few heroes (pesti, jere, kraken, accursed, probably more) That I rate higher than some might expect because I think they are powerful but they don't quite fit into the current meta game.


Show me your worst C&C

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL obs troll is obs trolololololollolololololollololo


Mag and behe on b on initiators lol????..................... :SSSSSS they are picked up or banned 9 games outa 10 in comp play, they used 2 even bee picked up a lot more that pharaoh, and hellbringer.. also vj picked up even more than andro and isnt in a:(... glace 2 lol diz list is so wrongz


balp isnt an initiator and valk should be in carry :P

[the`postman]

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLL obs troll is obs trolololololollolololololollololo


Mag and behe on b on initiators lol????..................... :SSSSSS they are picked up or banned 9 games outa 10 in comp play, they used 2 even bee picked up a lot more that pharaoh, and hellbringer.. also vj picked up even more than andro and isnt in a:(... glace 2 lol diz list is so wrongz


balp isnt an initiator and valk should be in carry :P
It must be a troll because Mag/Behe are top of B tier instead of bottom of A tier (they aren't on the same level as pharoah/hb, hammer is debatable)?
VJ is not picked as often as Andro, neither is glacius.

I honestly don't understand people who say "this list is terrible" when their disagreement with the entire list (75 heroes, divided amongst 14 different groups) is three heroes being one-two slots lower/higher than they think they should be.

[JohnnyDrama]

The list is pretty bad. Then again Tier lists are on of the most retarded inventions ever.

All you have to do is see Slither under carrys to know this is just plain dumb.

The rest of the carrys are just a jumble, like sw, maliken and panda on the same tier as vindi? Glacius isnt top tier? Accursed should be B. Blacksmith under gankers? Aluna under gankers? gauntlet and polly tier c? Pesti magmus and behe tier b?

Bad list.

[the`postman]

The list is pretty bad. Then again Tier lists are on of the most retarded inventions ever.

All you have to do is see Slither under carrys to know this is just plain dumb.

The rest of the carrys are just a jumble, like sw, maliken and panda on the same tier as vindi? Glacius isnt top tier? Accursed should be B. Blacksmith under gankers? Aluna under gankers? gauntlet and polly tier c? Pesti magmus and behe tier b?

Bad list.
Slither is most certainly played as a carry, glacius might be top tier, it's close, there is absolutely no reason for accursed to be B-tier, he's never picked.
Aluna should probably be under carries, that's a fair point. Gauntlet and polly definitely are not B-tier (B-tier heroes are picked very frequently and sometimes banned, those heroes are rarely ever played and NEVER banned). Pesti is definitely B-tier, magmus and behe is debatable between bottom of A and top of B.

Vindi should definitely be lowered though.

[Cyann]

Carries

A-:souls::slit::madm::pupp::swif::flin:
B-:arac::corr::glad::pred:
C-:fors::moon::mali::sand::vind:Aluna:defi::pand:
D-:mage::dark::chro::soulr::zeph::nigh::wild:
E-Warbeast,Scout,Bloodhunter



In my time watching Honcast, I don't recall ever having seen Maliken picked. However, I do recall seeing Panda a few times, and especially since the buff to his jump. Perhaps move him up a bit, and take Maliken down a few spots? Maybe SW should be moved a few spots down as well, seeing as his recent nerfs pushed him away from the competitive teams. Also, Gladiator is rarely picked as well and I recall seeing FA picked more often than him(although Glad may be banned once in a while).



Supports
A-:witc::myrm::deme::andr::vood:
B-:glac::nymp::plag:
C-:jera::accu:Empath
D-None


I think Nymphora should be moved up. I see her much more often than Voodoo and Andro. Empath was tested a few times, but doesn't seem to be picked at all recently, so I dunno about her spot.



Gankers/Initiators
A-:bubb::thun::chip::doct::wret::pebb::bomb:
B-:tort::pyro::valk::elec:
C-:dead::ophe::gaun::poll::devo::damp:
D-Blacksmith,Succubus,Fayde


I think the A and B tier is pretty spot on. Although Electrician is sort of debatable I think. Are you sure about Pollywog? He is definately picked more often than DW and Gauntlet, maybe move him to the top of C tier?



Initiators/Armadons
A-:phar::hell::hamm::behe:
B-:magm::pest::tund:
C-:krak::temp::balp::engi::mora::arma:
D-Legionnaire,Keeper of the Forest,Rampage

Again, pretty spot on at A and B, maybe Hammer is a bit too high, I dunno. I never quite understood him. What's with Kraken so high? The last, and only time, I saw him picked was because he got randomed.

[JonnyL]

yea you watch like what, 1 game a month? this thread is useless. What do we need "tiers" for!?

[the`postman]

What do we need "tiers" for!?


Thought this would be a fun post. Of course it's all just my opinion so I expect there to be tons of disagreements but that's the point of the thread, start a discussion.


No need, just a fun post to start a discussion.

[TDA101]

This categorization of different heroes is fundamentally flawed, almost no hero is better or worse then another hero. It is simply how one hero fits into a team composition.

Their are only 3 tiers, underpowered(~10%), overpowered(~2%), and balanced(~88%)
More like

Overpowered 25%
Underpowered 50%
Garbage 25%

[AType]

This tier list sucks. Make one that doesn't have labels. Your tier list implies that Soulstealer = Hammerstorm and that's lol.

[Mercy]

This tier list sucks. Make one that doesn't have labels. Your tier list implies that Soulstealer = Hammerstorm and that's lol.

I'm neither supporting nor denigrating this list but I feel the need to point out that you are utterly retarded. Do you not understand the concept of categorized tiers are is this really the thought process that goes through your head?

Let me make a comparison.

I'm going to rank basketball teams by tier, and then I'm going to rank football teams by tier. Am I saying the top tier basketball teams ARE THE SAME as the top tier football teams? No, you mouthbreathing cretin, I'm saying that they're tiered within their categories. Let it sink in for a bit, maybe the idea will hit a dense spot somewhere in your peanut sized brain. I doubt it though.

[JackSparrow`]

grace speaks the truth

[Shffl]

if the list were made to have the same hero in multiple categories, i think a lot of complaints would be solved

[AType]

I'm neither supporting nor denigrating this list but I feel the need to point out that you are utterly retarded. Do you not understand the concept of categorized tiers are is this really the thought process that goes through your head?

Let me make a comparison.

I'm going to rank basketball teams by tier, and then I'm going to rank football teams by tier. Am I saying the top tier basketball teams ARE THE SAME as the top tier football teams? No, you mouthbreathing cretin, I'm saying that they're tiered within their categories. Let it sink in for a bit, maybe the idea will hit a dense spot somewhere in your peanut sized brain. I doubt it though.

lol. Are you seriously trying to say that the difference between Hammerstorm in Soulstealer is parallel to the difference between a professional basketball team and a professional football team? Nice try, but self-pwned. Your analogy would be better if you said you were going to rank football players in tiers based on the position they play. And you'd still end up with the same problem: forcing the reader to weigh the difference between the "groups" on their own.

Cute attempt at intelligence insults though.

Since you're such a smart guy, where would you place Hammerstorm relative to Soulstealer overall based on this list?

[p1mpjuice]

lol. Are you seriously trying to say that the difference between Hammerstorm in Soulstealer is parallel to the difference between a professional basketball team and a professional football team? Nice try, but self-pwned. Your analogy would be better if you said you were going to rank football players in tiers based on the position they play. And you'd still end up with the same problem: forcing the reader to weigh the difference between the "groups" on their own.

Cute attempt at intelligence insults though.

Since you're such a smart guy, where would you place Hammerstorm relative to Soulstealer overall based on this list?

So you still don't understand the point of a categorical tier list?

Or in your analogy, I'm not looking for wide receivers to play quarterback, so why ask the question?

[Mercy]

lol. Are you seriously trying to say that the difference between Hammerstorm in Soulstealer is parallel to the difference between a professional basketball team and a professional football team? Nice try, but self-pwned. Your analogy would be better if you said you were going to rank football players in tiers based on the position they play. And you'd still end up with the same problem: forcing the reader to weigh the difference between the "groups" on their own.

Cute attempt at intelligence insults though.

Since you're such a smart guy, where would you place Hammerstorm relative to Soulstealer overall based on this list?

You're an idiot.

[Cyann]

lol. Are you seriously trying to say that the difference between Hammerstorm in Soulstealer is parallel to the difference between a professional basketball team and a professional football team? Nice try, but self-pwned. Your analogy would be better if you said you were going to rank football players in tiers based on the position they play. And you'd still end up with the same problem: forcing the reader to weigh the difference between the "groups" on their own.

Cute attempt at intelligence insults though.

Since you're such a smart guy, where would you place Hammerstorm relative to Soulstealer overall based on this list?

He explained it pretty well and yet you feign ignorance. I hope for your sake that you're simply trolling.

[Tim]

Oh come on how is Predator a better carry than sand wraith

Really

[RobinDaHood]

this list is d-tier because putting heroes in categories is pointless. mm and defiler are two completely different kinds of carries so how could you put them in the same category and compare them to each other?

[Oiphal]

I think that putting Slither in the A tier for carry shows a lack of understanding as to why the hero is picked. Slither can carry, and has shown that potential. It's not that it's wrong to put him at that level of carry, but he's unlikely to out carry any of the heroes in that tier given similar farm (Specifically puppet, madman, swift, flint all outcarry him with even somewhat lesser farm).

However, the main advantage of the hero is that he can fulfill a huge amount of roles if your picks work out wrong. He's never going to be a bad early pick, because he can carry, he can support, he can push, and he can be an initiator. The pushing and the carrying overlap, as seen by the common 2-1-4 or 1-2-4 etc. type builds on him in solo lanes.

We mostly see him played in the solo long lane atm, which lends to his carry potential. In dota he's more common as a third member of a trilane (the nerf to wards and level 1-3 spray is part of why we don't see that as often in hon).

[Cyann]

Oh come on how is Predator a better carry than sand wraith

Really

SW is never picked after the recent nerfs to illusions. Predator is once in a while.

[the`postman]

Oh come on how is Predator a better carry than sand wraith

Really
SW hasn't been picked up since the multiple nerfs, pred picked occasionally.


this list is d-tier because putting heroes in categories is pointless. mm and defiler are two completely different kinds of carries so how could you put them in the same category and compare them to each other?
Because it is based on pick rates.

I think that putting Slither in the A tier for carry shows a lack of understanding as to why the hero is picked. Slither can carry, and has shown that potential. It's not that it's wrong to put him at that level of carry, but he's unlikely to out carry any of the heroes in that tier given similar farm (Specifically puppet, madman, swift, flint all outcarry him with even somewhat lesser farm).

The idea isn't that he is a harder carry than puppet/madman/flint but that he is a higher quality hero and picked up/banned more than those four.

[RobinDaHood]

Because it is based on pick rates.

okay so its based on pick rates but again how can you compare :defi: and :madm: when they are completely different heroes? you cant really make that kind of generalization without putting every hero in every category

e: and how do you have a tank category when you dont have a pusher category? push heroes are a huge category in hon, while the idea of a tank is a joke to begin with

[Cyann]

okay so its based on pick rates but again how can you compare :defi: and :madm: when they are completely different heroes? you cant really make that kind of generalization without putting every hero in every category

e: and how do you have a tank category when you dont have a pusher category? push heroes are a huge category in hon, while the idea of a tank is a joke to begin with

He doesn't have a tank category. Tbh the categories are fine as they are, with only a few heroes that should be changed. For example, Witch Slayer is way too high.

[Boolbasor]

Witch Slayer is way too high... what???

[Octavia]

Witch Slayer is way too high... what???
7 gram rocks

[LiChE]

Witch Slayer is way too high... what???

to the wingbowsssss

to the well

[Doinkmoo]

Witch Slayer is way too high... what???

the downs bug

[the`postman]

Updated!

Remember this is done just for fun, rankings are based on pick rate in competitive games, don't fret too much over the categories.

[Danelaan]

Maliken in "C", Swift in "B". I think not.

[XFlame]

Nighthound is more of a ganker than a carry tbh, you should change his category.

[WindRaven]

Armadon is a Rank C Armadon :(

[huhuh]

I think seeing recent games, you could maybe swap Chipper with Torturer. Also put Pestilence after Kraken and Tundra (Trixi proved how Kraken could rock and his ulti goes through bkb, Tundra is used from times to times whereas Pestilence hasn't seen much play despite getting an alternate avatar)

Also, ain't we missing Nomad / Silhouette ? Will be tough to place 'em though.

[Behelit]

Glacius > D.sham by a lot.

[Boinkmoo]

still really bad... silhoutte is god tier along with wildsoul and soul reaper

[Hoid]

Blacksmith should be one tier up. Balphagore one tier down.

[Pihlaja]

My opinnion:

:slit: Is only A-tier carry only in trixis hands. In other hands B-tier max.
:alun: Is max B-tier carry.

:deme:Aint A-tier support. It hardly fits the current meta so i'd put it in C-tier.


Other than that is was fine.

[JoshPFriends]

saw tempest as C, posted this reply, left thread

[Pihlaja]

saw tempest as C, posted this reply, left thread

And forgot to say about that too.. :PP

[Vulpes]

My list is still much better.

[the`postman]

saw tempest as C, posted this reply, left thread
so josh you gonna play him next series then?

[Ar7style]

It's pretty darn correct, think silh n fa gonna jump right up to A within a couple of weeks tho ;o
Also i bet tempest n wildsoul gonna get some love as solo hardlane in no time

[kippetje]

atm (as in picks)
arachna to C, FA to B
plague+glacius up 1, dsham down 1

[Terukio]

Why is Kraken never in this ****?

[Radiohead]

Wildsoul tier D? Wat?

[MOBAKing]

Wildsoul tier D? Wat?

Last Updated: 5/21