View Full Version : Puzzlebox and its absence from pubs...
CronoDroid
09-19-2009, 04:18 AM
From what I can tell, Necronomicon is one of the more popular items in DotA, especially for above-pub games (clan scrimmages I guess). Now stealth is much more prevalent in HoN than it is in DotA but yet in the hundred or so games I've played, I've seen Puzzlebox approximately zero times.
It seems to have almost unlimited viability on heroes from Jereziah to Succubus. Obviously heroes with channeled stuns would benefit from Puzzlebox minions (Succ, Elec, Polly), but it seems like it would be a great item for anyone with a stun.
With Scout, NH and Madman being ever popular choices in pubs plus some players' insistence on buying Assassin's Shroud, it would appear that the Level 3 true sight given by the Puzzlebox minions would also be useful (with greater mobility than wards and more utility than dust).
So I ask, is HoN's meta different enough from DotA's that Puzzlebox/Necronomicon is pretty much never used? Maybe people can't micro as well in this game or something, or maybe they just don't know. I know if I don't have Pestilence on my team and my hero would be a good Puzzlebox candidate, I try to buy it if I can.
Maybe someone should write a Puzzlebox guide? I think HoN would be better if pubbers learnt something other than the extremely common Dagon/BFury/Bloodstone builds on almost every hero.
I guess the problem is puzzlebox isn't that "shiny" when you first look at it, needs some marketing imo
Tyrando
09-19-2009, 04:30 AM
Its rare for the same reason you dont see Wildsoul & Ophelia.
Micro isnt a base requirement to be good at DotA/HoN unlike RTS's.
That and Micro'ing here is worse than DotA for several reasons mentioned over and over.
Elman1
09-19-2009, 04:45 AM
Plus their mana drain didn't work until a few patches ago.
Carrotcake
09-19-2009, 04:45 AM
The puzzle box summons seem to die much much faster than necro-warriors, it could just be me though, since I haven't played dota in a while.
uhhhahhhohah
09-19-2009, 04:49 AM
I get Puzzlebox everytime I play Pharaoh but I doubt i'll be doing that anymore since they added him to Staff of the Masters. Was thinking of using it on pre-patch Kraken, might be even better now his slow is an aura. It doesn't help that when you select your 2 summons and your hero and issue a move order with your hero, it makes the summons move too. So if you told one of them to do his mana burn thing and then move your hero to chase, it will cancel the ability order.
Travakh
09-19-2009, 04:53 AM
Pubs can't micro and people want simple items
Puzzlebox gets better the better player you are and most pubs are bad
Carrotcake
09-19-2009, 05:22 AM
Pubs can't micro and people want simple items
Puzzlebox gets better the better player you are and most pubs are bad
Even if the puzzle box is used to its fullest, say: being able to use them to farm a lane while you creep stack and creep pull, the fact that they are the best item for any one hero is up for debate.
Also, the micro requirement shouldn't be ignored, even if you do consider yourself a top-level player. This reminds me of when I used to play fighting games. There are usually two groups of players: the group that can string very long, damaging combos, and the group which uses short, efficient, and easy to execute combos. While the theoretical "best player" should be able to nail difficult combos all the time, it's the players that play simple who usually win - even on high stakes matches.
Carrotcake
09-19-2009, 05:24 AM
By farm a lane - I of course mean to last hit and deny.
Travakh
09-19-2009, 05:49 AM
Even if the puzzle box is used to its fullest, say: being able to use them to farm a lane while you creep stack and creep pull, the fact that they are the best item for any one hero is up for debate.
For damage it's superb on one hero - succubus. No micro needed, just put up the necbook minions, grip, and tell the minions to right click.
It's a perfectly valid item on all support heroes against opposed stealth heroes. Jeraziah, Accursed, Nymphora, etc, all can make good use out of the necbook3 stats and minions to pick off stealth heroes and supplement their poor base damage.
KeN_13
09-19-2009, 05:56 AM
Lol! If u didnt see any puzzlebox in pubs, then u didnt see my NH with geometr,nulfire + puzzle = ownage!!! I should write an NH guide with puzzlebx as a viable... It countrs wards and other invis..
Carrotcake
09-19-2009, 05:59 AM
Against stealth heroes gem, dust, and wards are usually more convenient.
Carrotcake
09-19-2009, 06:01 AM
Lol! If u didnt see any puzzlebox in pubs, then u didnt see my NH with geometr,nulfire + puzzle = ownage!!! I should write an NH guide with puzzlebx as a viable... It countrs wards and other invis..
I once had a Zeus with a Divine Rapier, Boots, and plenty of branches. We won the game handily, but that doesn't mean that the item build is any good.
CronoDroid
09-19-2009, 04:46 PM
More convenient, yes, but Puzzlebox does give stats and more DPS. I'm just saying I think it should be promoted more, as it is a very good item for many heroes.
wmd221
09-19-2009, 05:29 PM
i've always been really interested in using this item but one thing thats really held me back is how annoying it is to try and micro them.
my main issue is really just targetting them after i use them, for example in a group fight lets say we're pushing their rax, theres a 5v5 with a set of creeps from each team and I pop the puzzlebox. I don't know if theres some sort of keybinding I'm missing but I have trouble targetting the puzzlebox creep that I want in a timely fashion to get a manaburn off ( Clicking doesn't really work well in all situations, and tilde key is very unreliable having to scroll through myself, courier, the other puzzlebox, etc. ).
The other issue I have with targetting is being able to use the manaburn while I have myself and the puzzlebox creeps all in a selection, is there a way to scroll through the different units in a group as the "main" target so I can easily use the manaburn without having to move my cursor to the bottom right of the screen and clicking the unit?
Press Puzzlebox -> Drag Select Area -> Right-click on enemy xD
If you feel comfortable microing more then you can use the activatable mana burn on the ranged creep.
Kietharr
09-19-2009, 05:58 PM
Puzzlebox isn't good on every hero and a lot of the good puzzlebox heroes aren't popular in pubs. And again, people don't seem to know how to use it correctly and many pubs are reluctant to get an item that requires another click.
wmd221
09-19-2009, 06:15 PM
Press Puzzlebox -> Drag Select Area -> Right-click on enemy xD
If you feel comfortable microing more then you can use the activatable mana burn on the ranged creep.
I dunno that seems like a really lackluster use of the item honestly.
rpg711
09-19-2009, 06:19 PM
Its rare for the same reason you dont see Wildsoul & Ophelia.
The reason you don't see ophelia is that it is ridiculously hard to micro units, sure the TAB business works, but it selects single units. In the Warcraft Engine, you can tab to an entire unit group, and burn through all of their spell CDs. I know I'm not very clear, but if you've played Chen, you know what I mean. Puzzlebox is just damn hard to micro, they are fast, small, and almost impossible to click on(due to the fact that the clicking tends to always want to select).
I dunno that seems like a really lackluster use of the item honestly.
***Press Puzzlebox*** -> Drag~Select Area -> Right~click on enemy
"á¤nµ"
That shiny enough? :)
MABManZ
09-19-2009, 09:16 PM
I get Puzzlebox all the time on Pharaoh, but now I'm torn with the new SoTM upgraded ult.
SotM should always come before Puzzlebox - by a very very very long way.
PandaPanda
09-19-2009, 09:55 PM
What heroes would you all suggest Puzzlebox the most on? I tend to grab them with Elec/Polly/Succu, but I have limited success (though it's getting better). I'm trying to find a balance between heroes who can farm it realistically, and use it effectively.
rpg711
09-19-2009, 10:00 PM
Bane/Succubus is almost required to get puzzlebox, it does a rediculously large amount of damage and burns mana, making his ult more viable later on, while being a great support item for truesight+move speed aura.
I used to go necrobook on clockwork, but new item changes(aghanims) has made necrobook less than viable.
If you are good at micro, you can try getting puzzlebox on ophelia, with 3 stun creeps, you are guaranteed a kill, due to your slow + this movespeed aura.
xahxah
09-19-2009, 11:24 PM
Puzzle Box is absurdly annoying to micro compared to Necro book.
Motoxpro
09-20-2009, 12:26 AM
Do people not set units to teams in this game? I.E. CTRL + 1? I dont think any decent player is going to be clicking each of his dudes anyway :\
OohEhmGee
09-20-2009, 01:26 AM
the problem with setting them to teams is if it is like in wc3 when the units despawn you have to re set them each and every time.. kind of hard to do in a team fight... micro was still a higher level skill in dota... but i do agree that it is a bit harder without some of the real rts ui/elements that wc3 had.
wmd221
09-20-2009, 03:09 AM
the problem with setting them to teams is if it is like in wc3 when the units despawn you have to re set them each and every time.. kind of hard to do in a team fight... micro was still a higher level skill in dota... but i do agree that it is a bit harder without some of the real rts ui/elements that wc3 had.
I honestly think the item would see a lot more use if they added an option where you could do that.
`Assist
09-20-2009, 03:23 AM
Do people not set units to teams in this game? I.E. CTRL + 1? I dont think any decent player is going to be clicking each of his dudes anyway :\
Mostly because tabbing is really annoying as the highlight of current selected unit is really hard to see with all the colorful spells flying around
Ationi
09-20-2009, 05:02 AM
I have 249 matches played and I didn't even know what this item really does. It is really rare I guess...
tootsie2
09-20-2009, 05:27 AM
microing the puzzies is a painful experience, especially if look at the aspect of collision boxes..
GODLY
10-06-2009, 09:41 PM
The reason you don't see ophelia is that it is ridiculously hard to micro units, sure the TAB business works, but it selects single units. In the Warcraft Engine, you can tab to an entire unit group, and burn through all of their spell CDs. I know I'm not very clear, but if you've played Chen, you know what I mean. Puzzlebox is just damn hard to micro, they are fast, small, and almost impossible to click on(due to the fact that the clicking tends to always want to select).
Yeah I hope they fix that, it's tedious having to tab through every Minatour to use their stun.
Treeshark
10-06-2009, 10:12 PM
A large part of the appeal of DOTA over WC3 or SC to me was that it didn't require me to micro multiple units very often. I think it was that way for a lot of people. I don't want to have to throw down 150 actions per minute across multiple units just to feel like I'm playing competently. Why would I buy an item that just makes me work harder and feel incompetent?
ImpBloody
10-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Well, if you are good at using this item, and can micro, it is epic. You are right, it is very hard for just anyone to use, it takes alot of practice. Personally i like it because i'm very used to microing. However, i can see how anyone else would hate this item, but it still has amazing attributes to it. So, i dont think we should limit anyone into not buying this item.
RTBardic
10-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Someone told me that the mana burn and damage on death aren't working properly with Puzzlebox: is that still the case?
v3n00m
10-06-2009, 11:57 PM
hehe necro was a beast on beastmaster on dota =)
PoopyDesires
10-07-2009, 12:00 AM
Due to its massive absence, level 3 warrior is a surfire way to get to easy kills.
Run him in, focus down the first moron that attempts to kill it. Easy.
Don't know if anyone's tried it buy Puzzlebox is great for succ, played it in a pub earlier because we had a scout and it worked great.
Bobdoyle
10-07-2009, 12:03 AM
1 word
Upgrading
got_m1lk
10-07-2009, 04:07 AM
Due to its massive absence, level 3 warrior is a surfire way to get to easy kills.
Run him in, focus down the first moron that attempts to kill it. Easy.
Don't know if anyone's tried it buy Puzzlebox is great for succ, played it in a pub earlier because we had a scout and it worked great.
Jep i once noticed that while playing succubus.
And arn't theese the best kills ever ?!
_Archangel_
10-07-2009, 04:13 AM
hehe necro was a beast on beastmaster on dota =)
Yes it was. Beastmaster port plox
RogerDodger
10-07-2009, 04:52 AM
I've bought it once, but only level 1.
Perhaps because the level 1 minions are next to useless it deters people from even bothering to upgrade it?
Maybe next time there's a pesky scout I might buy one.
Puchi
10-07-2009, 04:54 AM
I get it all the time, i have found that it's a great endgame item for lego, much bettre then geting a bound eye to counter stealth
that game i got these items when it was over:
Post haste
Behemoths heart
PUzzle box
FF plate
Barrier Idol
Portal key
Thats a lego you wont kill, i can tell you that! ;P