HoN Werewolf V2 - Game Over

[Octavia]

If yukari is fake then there's no reason for the real one not to claim. The whole strength behind the Blacksmith role is that a HB would have to be suicidal to think counter-claiming it would be a good idea.

However, there's no way that we can know for sure that this is set-up 3. All we know is that there's a Devourer, meaning set-ups 3 or 4. Hellbourne has a 50-50 chance of knowing whether a real Blacksmith exists or not. Exercising their Devourer power then reveals to the Legion what Hellbourne know - that it's either set-up 3 or 4.

If Yukari was Hellbourne and wanted to take up the gambit of soft-claiming Blacksmith on the first day then it would be relatively risk free. If it turned out to be set-up 3 then he could just back down from the real Blacksmith and say it was a joke soft-claim. If it turned out to be set-up 4 then he could then either out a Power Role or become a confirmed Townie as Hellbourne. If a Keeper claimed it would be a he-said she-said situation and combined with Yukari's Town-sided light thus far we'd be more inclined to believe him.

In this situation where a Scout is dead, it could happen that both Town's remaining PR's for set-up 4 claim (Keeper and Insane Scout) to condemn the fakesmith, but is that a trade a Hellbourne would be willing to make?

All of this is just rambling really, I'm merely saying that we can't guarantee Yukari is town from his claim alone. Combined with his play style so far I'd be inclined to say he's town, but the Blacksmith claim doesn't really change things. This is just my gut feeling, other's might have a different view and if you do don't let this claim affect that feeling to greatly.

By the way Yukari, you're not allowed to edit posts.

[Yukari]

Hm. Interesting argument roger, but you really have to take into account the date (in terms of this game) where I first soft-claimed BS. During day 1, unless Vahn has PM'd each of the hellbourne team the entire HB roster, or the combination, it would be a really stupid move to soft-claim BS, since there would be a 50% that I would be killed, and 50% chance that I would create a elaborate lie. From my posts, you should also know that I'm not a big fan of luck.

BTW vahn, thats the signal for you to get in here and tell us if HB knew the combination at the start of the first day.

[Octavia]

Looking at last game's Hellbourne chat you can assume they knew each other and their roles on the first minute of the game.

[Yukari]

Well there goes my whole argument.

[Chuth]

1. W/e
2. It would be better to do what Andrex did in terms of standing out.
3. So inactivity isn't a good reason to be replaced?
4. Logic, how does it work?

2. Well I did think about this game for a bit before it started.
3. It's not inactivity; I just don't post twice a page.

[GrimmShado]

Unless someone else claims blacksmith, Vote Chuth
At least this is getting interesting. Also in my original 3 suspects,Chuth Lucian and _, we lynched 2, and bought were Legion. As i've said before i think that was due to poor play from them and not good play from hb.
So, as for this moment yukari has convinced me. Unless new info or arguments come up, i'm sticking to voting chuth.

[Vahn]

Day 1 has begun

So everyone knows, the hellbourne do know who eachother is and what each of their roles are.

If anyone didn't receive the PM with their role please message me and I will re-send it to you.

Reading is hard.

[Javu]

We could always vote Yukari and if he's the real blacksmith he can fireball chuth if he's so certain.

Nomes post is really intriguing. It does seem highly unlikely that Yukari isn't blacksmith, but HB did know their roles from the moment the game started. So if Ryper was blacksmith then Yukari can get a free claim and no-one will ever be able to counter claim him. It also does seem convenient that he is claiming right after Ryper's death.

I also don't see why he feels he needs to claim at this point. So he can use the fact he's blacksmith to try and convince everyone to lynch chuth? The only thing claiming Blacksmith does is clears himself. Honestly it seems smarter to claim on MYLO/LYLO so we have a living clear

[Yukari]

We could always vote Yukari and if he's the real blacksmith he can fireball chuth if he's so certain.

Nomes post is really intriguing. It does seem highly unlikely that Yukari isn't blacksmith, but HB did know their roles from the moment the game started. So if Ryper was blacksmith then Yukari can get a free claim and no-one will ever be able to counter claim him. It also does seem convenient that he is claiming right after Ryper's death.

I also don't see why he feels he needs to claim at this point. So he can use the fact he's blacksmith to try and convince everyone to lynch chuth? The only thing claiming Blacksmith does is clears himself. Honestly it seems smarter to claim on MYLO/LYLO so we have a living clear

Actually I soft claimed lego/blacksmith on day 1. I also argued against bandwagonning ryper for 2 days.

[Javu]

Although, he does raise some good points about Chuth. The one thing that makes me suspicious of Chuth, and Bobble for that matter is that they both magically came out of inactivity when they started getting some suspicion against them, Chuth especially. He was most likely going to be lynched and then all of a sudden became active and relieved the suspicion against him enough to cause everyone to look elsewhere. Maybe Yukari is on to something

[Ryper7]

Lol, I even checked it over to make sure. When you start with the same letter and have the same amount of letters in your name, it's easy to stuff up. You wouldn't believe how many times people call me booble.
lol booble.

its k, i was calling yukari yakuri for a bit so i spose i deserved it :P

my god this Victini needs to l2getinpokeball

[Javu]

Meh, I'm willing to believe he's blacksmith. If he really is a HB and came up with this crazy devour + claim blacksmith plan on his own on Day 1 then he really did outplay us. The chances seem pretty slim, so I'm willing to count him as clear.

That means he has legions best interest in mind, and if he's so sure about Chuth then I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides if Chuth flips legion and we have doubts about Yukari's allegiance we can vote him tomorrow. If he flips HB then yay we get a good lynch, and if he flips blacksmith then he gets a shot at someone, which will pretty much be a 50-50 chance of killing a HB and keeping us in the game.

unvote Evil_Andrex, vote Chuth

[Yukari]

Sure, I wouldn't mind fireballing my second suspect if this one turns false.

[Ryoki]

Sorry guys! It would seem I can't keep up with this game ):
I'm going to have to ask someone to replace me T-T
Real life issues ):

[Nolifer]

Unvote FlameStick ; Vote Chuth

[GrimmShado]

why are we trusting yukari blindfolded?. All we know is Hb has a puppet master, a madman and a devourer. We can be in combo 4, and ofc no one will claim blacksmith, because there is not a blacksmith.
So, if there is a jere, then yukari is bs and only jere knows that for sure now.
If there is another scout (insane or not), or a keeper of the forest, then he needs to claim now, so we can lynch yukari.
If the Chuth lynch succeeds, i'll asume legion powerroles read this and there is a jere who remained anonymous, and we will be sure about yukari, and should follow his guide.
Otherwise, we have a confirmed hb.

[Taironias]

Gawd, this game is moving sOOOOO slow! Lulz were had in the previous pages, though. Hurry up! I wanna play!

[Emiya]

Oh, I almost forgot.

Emiya, you jokingly claimed pally at day 1 (Possibly a very very retarded thing to do, even jokingly.) There is a very high chance that HB has already scouted you, and ryper later on, then devourered Ryper because he was the pally. So I ask you.

Do you hard claim pally at this point?
As I said earlier in this thread, the point of "claiming pally" was so that Hellbourne would target me. As a Sapling, there is no reason for me to take a chance of Jeraziah or a Scout dying if I can lure Hellbourne into killing a Sapling (me) instead. My post wasn't just a joke.
Well, I haven't died yet, so either Hellbourne didn't take the bait or they already investigated me.


I am fine with voting Chuth, but if he turns out to be Legion, I will refuse to vote for evil_andrex. So far in this thread we've had more or less the same suspects, and I'm afraid that Hellbourne's combined voices have convinced people of these suspects.

So... Vote Chuth.

[ElementUser]

[COLOR=White]why are we trusting yukari blindfolded?

He's my Yukari, that's why.

Always trust him!

<3

[Fetyukov]

If I can count correctly this makes...

with 8 needed for a lynch

Evil_Andrex (3) - Bobble, Chuth, ShadowExile
Chuth (5) - Evil_Andrex, EvilDrake, Yukari, javu, nolifer
Bobble (1) - Fetyukov

Players who haven't voted yet: FlameStick, NomesWisdom, Ryoki, YawningAngel

I'm going to unvote Bobble (still suspicious, but the train left the station for that lynch). Maybe I'll persue this again later, but let's examine the current players under scrutiny.



assume he's legion for a minute:
coming in new he acted rather ballsy compared to the other new players, even advocating for the disqualification of yukari, and not giving reasons for voting emiya, being rather confrontational for no real reasons. He gets super active days later when people aim at him, perhaps defensively. He doesn't really scum-hunt, simply votes emiya.

Doesn't make much sense from a legion perspective.

assume he's hb for a minute:
Now, in the hb chat he would have been told after day 1 some mistakes he has made, so on day 2 he lies low (only really votes emiya and excuses his absence). Day 3 comes and he explodes in with posts defending his innocence. I imagine that if I was hb in night 3 I would tell Chuth that he's exposed himself too much, and to take one for the team, letting other hb members gather round and vote him off (gaining some cred). All they would have to do is wait for the inevitable chuth vote to come about, and finish the wagon rather than take the suspicious point of starting it.

Things have changed, Bobble isn't my number 1 any more, and I'm still not 100% on chuth...

vote chuth today, maybe flamestick tomorrow.

[Chuth]

We could always vote Yukari and if he's the real blacksmith he can fireball chuth if he's so certain.

Nomes post is really intriguing. It does seem highly unlikely that Yukari isn't blacksmith, but HB did know their roles from the moment the game started. So if Ryper was blacksmith then Yukari can get a free claim and no-one will ever be able to counter claim him. It also does seem convenient that he is claiming right after Ryper's death.

I also don't see why he feels he needs to claim at this point. So he can use the fact he's blacksmith to try and convince everyone to lynch chuth? The only thing claiming Blacksmith does is clears himself. Honestly it seems smarter to claim on MYLO/LYLO so we have a living clear

Agree, if I get lynched then all will be revealed, so after this ridiculously long and boring game, I don't really care anymore.


As I said earlier in this thread, the point of "claiming pally" was so that Hellbourne would target me. As a Sapling, there is no reason for me to take a chance of Jeraziah or a Scout dying if I can lure Hellbourne into killing a Sapling (me) instead. My post wasn't just a joke.
Well, I haven't died yet, so either Hellbourne didn't take the bait or they already investigated me.


I am fine with voting Chuth, but if he turns out to be Legion, I will refuse to vote for evil_andrex. So far in this thread we've had more or less the same suspects, and I'm afraid that Hellbourne's combined voices have convinced people of these suspects.

So... Vote Chuth.

If I turn out to be legion, why would you refuse to vote for evil_andrex? I've been pointing the finger of suspicion on him for a while...

Either way, lynch Yukari or me or Andrex or someone already.

[Vexium]

you could always NOT lynch, thus making the game last longer and this thread grow bigger BWHAHAHAHAA i mean ahem nothing

[Ryper7]

wats the longest thread ever on the hon forums?

i say we push for the record, although it wont be hard at this rate.

[Evil_Andrex]

You cannot beat the whoever posts last in this thread wins. Its physically impossible now.

[Ryper7]

oh im sure it can be arranged.......

......oh wow maybe not

ENUF BLUE MOAR WHITE PLS

edit: woops i editted, sorry for breaking the rules guys.

[Chuth]

wtf is with the mod icons

[Yukari]

Bunniesssssssssss

[Octavia]

durp

[Yukari]

herp

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/account_icons/elitist.png

Calling a temp. ceasefire while we derp around.

[Vexium]

DERPHERP

[Ryper7]

:arma: derp

[ShadowExile]

Sigh, I still remain suspicious of Evil_Andrex, and while there are many people who share that suspicion it seems everyone is far more convinced at Chuth. I can't know why for sure, some of his posts have raised an alarm in my head but it's not like the entire security system went off in my head as per what he's been saying. Still, I haven't read the entire thread (still), so I believe there may have been something I missed that would have been an obvious scumtell around Chuth.
Yukari appears to be fully clear as no Keeper, Lego, Insane Scout or anything has come out that would make his claim of Blacksmith impossible, and if we're going to trust anyone in leading a lynch, it would be a clear. And if Yukari is clear, and he's dead set on this lynch for whatever reason, (and I also just want to get this day over with before it's another 10 pages again), then I will just have to trust that and, hopefully not regret later.

Unvote: Evil_Andrex
Vote: Chuth

EDIT: And yes I did accidentally edit this post, all I wrote was "Unvote: Evil Andrex" because I believe that it is a requirement to do that... As everyone else has been doing.

[Vahn]

You guys don't really have to write the unvote, if you post to vote someone and have already voted someone else I'll unvote the other person automatically.

[Bobble]

Oh well, thats interesting then Vahn.

Well, i'm happy about this. The person I'm most suspicious about actually has a lot of votes on him. As such, Vote: Chuth

Both to keep this game going, and the fact I only voted Andrex to protect myself, among other reasons.

[Vahn]

Votes

Key: Player name (Number of votes against player) - List of players who voted.

Chuth (8) - Bobble, Emiya, Evil_Andrex, EvilDrake, Fetyukov, Nolifer, ShadowExile, Yukari

Evil_Andrex (2) - Chuth, Javu

With 8 votes the town has decided to lynch Chuth (Jeraziah) today. This ends day 4 with the death of Chuth.

Night 4
Night 4 has begun, Night will last for 24 hours or till all power roles have messaged me with their actions and the hellbourne have decided on who to kill.

[Vahn]

Day 5
Night 4 has ended and the villagers wake up to find Yukari (Blacksmith) died during the night.

It is now day 5.

[ElementUser]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO YUKARIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

I will banhammer whoever killed him.

:blac:

On a side note, HB wins if a legion is lynched tonight.

[Rawn]

Saw that coming... Saplings you really need to band together and get a successful lynch today. You can do it!

[Fetyukov]

Well ****.

Any reason we SHOULDN'T kick emiya today?

[Emiya]

It makes more sense now why Chuth was adamant about lynching me, but still not much. He assumed my first post about paladin meant I was claiming Jeraziah (I wasn't), but really paladins are just a power-role against the phantom. Didn't realize Jeraziah would get confused with what I was suggesting. I wasn't soft-claiming any particular role so that confusion wouldn't come up, but it seems it came up anyway.

Before Chuth was lynched he suggested we should vote evil_andrex, but given that Jeraziah wouldn't have any more knowledge than what we already have, I'm not sure how serious we should take it.

Well, if you believe I am Hellbourne, I cannot say much more to disprove it. I have attempted to give coherent input, but I've been completely wrong so far. That is all.

This next lynch has to count.

[Emiya]

Actually, I'm kind of confused as to why I'm the first one to come to your mind. Chuth hasn't accused me of anything for a while now, especially after I explained that I was not claiming Jeraziah.

[Fetyukov]

"I wasn't soft-claiming any particular role so that confusion wouldn't come up, but it seems it came up anyway."

But you were soft-claiming a legion role, and we have none now. So... you can't be one. hm.

[Emiya]

I'd like to point out I have an underlying "strategy" in werewolf that I try to pull off each and every game, especially since I've always gotten sapling. This game it failed since I'm still alive. Generally to pull off said strategy, which I dub "hero of justice scapegoat", I post a few short lines which suggest that I have a power role and don't say much else. A good portion of the time werewolves fall for it. Sometimes they don't.

I've already admitted I was lying about a power role since day 2.

[Javu]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW I go out for one night and chuth gets lynched >_>. Hold your breath people, biggish post incoming

[ShadowExile]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW I go out for one night and chuth gets lynched >_>. Hold your breath people, biggish post incoming

I'll wait for it then. Firstly because I have to go get ready for work now and won't be able to post for another 6 to 7 hours, and secondly because I want to gather as many facts as possible before trying to make a sound reasoning as to who appears to be most deceiving in this game. I still have my thing against Evil_Andrex but I'm not sure if that's good enough this round since it's MYLO. I will analyse as much evidence as possible before giving my judgment here, in about 7 hours time.

[Lucian01]

Sigh, that one was so obvious too. It's like you've got your scum tells and townie tells in reverse. :(

Ah well, at least this game is almost over.

[Javu]

First thing I want to point out is Chuth wasn't supposed to be lynched guys. I give you this:

Lastly, before I end this post, I will ask the person who's vote will end the day to NOT VOTE until I make a post towards the end of the day.
Yukari never really suspected him. Chuth was an easy target to start a bandwagon on, a bandwagon the hellbourne would be very willing to jump on. Chuth wasn't supposed to be hammered because Yukari would've revealed this fact and unvoted him. The bandwagon was created to lure hellbourne into voting for an easy target and I guarantee most, if not all of them fell for it. I also tried to do something like this, except a lot more subtely and I used Bobble as my target, but no-one bit. One of the things that made this plan obvious is that he hard claimed blacksmith today instead of at LYLO/MYLO. Claiming blacksmith then is strong because he can't be counterclaimed and then we have a clear, which heightens our chance of hitting a HB by a lot. By claiming blacksmith yesterday he guaranteed his death last night, so either he believed Jereziah was still in the game, or was willing to sacrifice himself for this last ditch effort in uncovering the HB.

I didn't see this plan at first, that's why I posted my skepticism about Yukari's vote, but after I posted I realised straight away and tried to subtely follow him in the wagon to convince the HB that Chuth was going to be an easy target for the to hit with no repercussions. The unfortunate thing is at least 2 legion didn't catch on to what Yukari was doing. In Vahn's vote list he still had my name as voting for Andrex, meaning 8 people not including me voted Chuth. There are 5 HB, so assuming they AL jumped on the wagon that would mean 3 legion players did too, Yukari being one of them.

It really is a shame Chuth got wagoned so quickly, I couldn't believe he was dead when I got home. I guess it shows you just how active and hungry the HB are to win the game.

Lastly, I think we should no-lynch today. We have 12 players left. If we reach 10 people without killing any HB we lose. So if we misslynch today, HB kill tonight and we reach 10 and lose. If we no-lynch today HB kill someone tonight and we will be at 11 people left. The only real difference it makes is that we have a slightly bigger chance of hitting a HB with 11 players left rather than 12. Although with that said I'm fairly sure we will finally kill Andrex.

Anyway, I think that's all that needed to be said. As a last note, be careful when voting today, thankfully its 7 people to lynch, but if 2 legion players vote for the same person and HB are quick enough they can seal the vote and win the game. Also props to Yukari, he kept this game realllllllllly interesting and gave us one last shot at victory.

GL everyone

[Javu]

Oh and I forgot 2 things.

1st: The reason Yukari claimed blacksmith to lead the wagon is that it made it really goddam convincing, and gave the HB an easy way to jump on to the 'townie leaders' bandwagon.

2nd: I suggest everyone goes back and reads carefully over the bandwagon. A few people stood out to me as HB pretty quickly.

I would've really liked to hear what Yukari had to say at the end of the day yesterday. I'm sure a lot of it would've been what I've already stated, but he's better than me at this game and probably had some other plans I didn't catch on to. At least what he's left us with is pretty strong to go off

Anyway, I'm off for a few hours, for the love of god don't kill anyone until I get back

[Emiya]

I was also thinking that it might be good to not lynch today, in the short-run. However if we make it to day 7 by not voting today and successfully voting on day 6, we'll basically be back in our current position. Along with that, Hellbourne will probably target someone who is not getting much heat anyway, which hardly helps us.

Also, while your reasoning is solid, I think you're overestimating its accuracy. I applied similar logic a few days ago and it failed utterly - though at this point in the later game there's a higher chance for it to work. I feel it's unlikely all 5 voted, but I do agree at least most of the Hellbourne had to have voted, and we can work off of that.

By the way, EvilDrake has been on every single successful lynch thus far. Just want to bring that up.

[GrimmShado]

Well, Chuth just trolled the game. If he claimed we could have won, or at least be sure of a hb.
I'll vote bobble or Emiya.

[Yukari]

ggwp :P

Apparently I suck at being vague.

[Fetyukov]

It's okay, some of us read it before the edit :tund:

[Evil_Andrex]

Or the two mods left can see.

hint:Hard delete!

[Vahn]

hint normal mods can't hard delete, however I can do something which will give similar effects.

[Vahn]

Replacement player
Zwai is replacing Ryoki.

[Zwai]

Legion needs to stick together. We have no powers right now due to poor play early on, we have been slowing losing players while Hellbourne loses none, and we need to do something about the growing Hellbourne threat.

In particular, we need to target their leaders. :mali:

How can you be assured that this Zwai with his oozing self-confidence isn't trying to trick you? I can claim that I'm replacing a Legion player and I'm sure people will complain, but honestly if you guys don't get organized you're going to lose to the superior power of the Hellbourne team. :corr:

Feel free to accuse me of whatever like it seems every post has been, but you have a better shot with me than scrambling around like a bunch of helpless sheep. :pand:

My main target is NomesWisdom AKA RogerDodger. Captain of an underperforming Australian team whose only claim to fame is his ability to put on a show stomping 1500s with double-Doombringers, Roger has been around this forum since its inception. Everyone here knows him, and he has power. :corr:

Roger will surely defend himself; but keep in mind how powerful he is. He has the power to influence people, and Hellbourne all know each other. They wouldn't let such a person stay alive if he wasn't on their team. In particular, why would they kill "TheJoo" over him?

What threat does TheJoo pose, even if he were given all the great powers of the game? He can't bring people together to do anything; he's useless filler, and you would never lynch him over RogerDodger if you were Hellbourne.

Hellbourne knows whether Roger is on their team, so the fact they didn't lynch such a powerful person shows he is on their side. At the very least, he's a help to them even if he's on Legion somehow.

Give me this one round to prove myself to you, and I will carry you to victory. :mage: If I'm wrong about this, feel free to lynch me but I argue only the truth and I *will* help you win.

[Zwai]

My skeptical audience might wonder about other threats. How do we know that NomesWisdom is more dangerous than Evil_Andrex or Emiya specifically? Feel free to propose others, but let me concentrate on these.

Evil_Andrex is the little brother of Rawrior, leader of Clan RawR. He's been promoted to his level of incompetence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle) hiding in the shadows, and isn't a threat at all. He is useless filler, and we don't need to waste our energy lynching him even if he had the biggest meanest Hellbourne powers around.

Emiya is more well-known and could be a threat if he has power. But I assert that Roger *is* a threat regardless. Roger has been talking and making tons of noise all game; but Emiya... His claim on day 1 isn't even a WIFOM. Something THAT obviously false cannot be used to play mind games.

You can dispute me on the point that Emiya should be lynched or is Hellbourne, but I claim Roger is the more immediate threat regardless. Also, Evil_Andrex is useless filler, and is not worth our time lynching.

[Yukari]

Andrex is rawrior's little bro?

[Zwai]

I have presented my arguments and do not hesitate to lynch RogerDodger. Give me a chance, and I will lead my fellow Legion to victory.

Vote: NomesWisdom

[Bobble]

Ok, lets lead on with this Zwai. Roger is good at this game. Damn good. Why isn't he dead? Could be Hellbourne. very suspicious, yes. Then again, Jeraziah has been around, so Hellbourne maybe didn't kill him because of that. Yes, we know Yukari was very blatant with his soft claims through the game, and I would agree with you that Roger is pretty much scum, but the Jera was Chuth. I'm not saying he's super bad at the game, but he didn't even claim (lol, i'm a poet and i wasn't even aware of it), so it shakes my belief that he protected Yukari every day, and could of protected Roger.

However, if Hellbourne knew who Jera was, he would have been dead, so it's obvious Hellbourne didn't know who Jera was, so they would have assumed that Yukari would have been protected every day, leaving Nomes open. That is very telling.

I'm inclined to agree with you Zwai. Until Roger defends himself, or someone else provides evidence to the contrary, then i'm willing to vote Roger, hard.

but wait until we get a concensus on a vote, we hold our votes. Pull your vote back Zwai. If Roger is Legion, then all it takes is the 5 Hellbourne jumping on the vote and winning this game. All Legion, wait until we confirm who to kill. DO NOT VOTE.

[Zwai]

Unvote: NomesWisdom

I trust your judgment, Bobble. I still feel RogerDodger is our best chance(though I hadn't considered your Jeraziah argument), but will repeal my vote out of respect for you and the way the rest of the Legion team does things.

[Yukari]

Rereading the topic with the derp icons gives a whole new dimension to the game

[Ryper7]

i cant believe you guys actually lynched chuth -_- GG.

[Yukari]

i cant believe you guys actually lynched chuth -_- GG.

gg yo, re?

[Vexium]

too bad it's me blacksmith LOLOLOLOL

[TheJoo]

it made me lol when you guys voted off jereziah.
It was also obvious that a lynch on Yukari was coming (what i don't know why they didn't do earlier..)

[Nolifer]

Vote No-lynch

[Chuth]

Son. I am derp.

I go off for two hours. Literally two hours. I come back and see I've been lynched and that legion are screwed.

Well at least I know who is who next game.

[YawningAngel]

Frankly, I imagine Roger's been Jeraziah's target all along: if Yukari was wrong, no dice killing him; if he was right, then an insta-lynch would have scuppered the Hellbourne royally because it would be clear that his suspects were HB. Bearing that in mind, I say we stick with our previous suspicions and knock out Andrex unless someone has a convincing reason why we shouldn't.

[Yukari]

Before I completely forget, hats off to Vahn for hosting a fun game.

[Zwai]

Vote: NomesWisdom

What I have just done with my vote is known as a Gambit in the chess community: We win or lose based off this move, depending on if I am right. Note that I assume you, the reader, are a Legion player in the following.

Now that I have made my vote, one of 3 things can happen:

Me: Legion Roger: Legion

As Bobble so aptly noticed, we have lost the game. Hellbourne will pile onto Roger, lynch him, and we lose. I have made a terrible mistake in my reasoning and cost us the game. Refer to my reasoning below to see why this cannot be. Since we lose regardless, it doesn't matter whether you vote against RogerDodger or not.


Me: Hellbourne Roger: Hellbourne

In this case, even though I'm your 'enemy', it still benefits you to vote against RogerDodger.


Exactly one of us is Legion; the other is Hellbourne

Here, you should make a decision as to who is more likely to be Hellbourne, and vote him out. I will argue below that the better choice for Legion to lynch is Roger.


Case 1: Doesn't matter what you vote.
Case 2: RogerDodger is clearly a good vote.
Case 3: Either me or RogerDodger is a good vote, depending on Legion/Hellbourne.

Even if you're split down the middle between us and unsure of who's who, then you should vote RogerDodger(in fact, if you think there is anywhere less than 66% probability of me being Hellbourne, then you should still vote RogerDodger).

Above, I have set up the logical structure for my gambit. If I can convince you to be anywhere less than 66% sure that I am Hellbourne, then voting against Roger is a good vote(for you). Now I actually need to do that convincing:


Ryoki posted nothing of relevance the entire game. He posted 11 posts in 30+ pages, none of which were interesting.(Run a search for Ryoki's posts in this thread; the search expires so I can't link you to the results.)

If in replacing him I was Hellbourne, then notice that Legion was already losing badly by the time I rolled around. I could sit here with my collection of Tentacle Porn not saying anything, and still win because you guys aren't organized. The mere fact that I am attempting to change something is evidence that I am Legion.

Further, notice that I replaced Ryoki AFTER the day started. I could not have communicated with the Hellbourne, and yet I'm proposing this very risky move. If I were Hellbourne, why would I propose this plan without having the chance to talk to my teammates?


Recall that Yukari was Legion. Now suppose that RogerDodger was Legion as well. These two are the main powerhouse forum figures of Legion, and would be the primary targets of Hellbourne(who know who's Legion and who's not).

Because Hellbourne jumped the gun on Yukari when the shield was down, Hellbourne assumed that Yukari was shielded prior to this. Therefore, RogerDodger was open to poaching. Again, he was not killed despite how defenseless he was.

If Roger were Legion, then he would be next in line. He would be the biggest threat to the Hellbourne team as the organizing force on Legion. But he wasn't. TheJoo was lynched instead.

Why would someone as nameless as TheJoo be lynched instead of Roger? Because Hellbourne doesn't want Roger to be lynched over TheJoo. Because Roger *is* Hellbourne.

Further, notice that Roger's presentation style shifted between Game 1 and Game 2. In Game 1 he was Legion, and attacked people. In Game 2, he's adopted a more defensive style, presenting counterarguments rather than arguments. Hellbourne is at a numerical disadvantage; it is better to be defensive and make every man count rather than be offensive. That is, Legion wants to swap 1 man for 1 man every time; Hellbourne loses if they try that.




Frankly, I imagine Roger's been Jeraziah's target all along: if Yukari was wrong, no dice killing him; if he was right, then an insta-lynch would have scuppered the Hellbourne royally because it would be clear that his suspects were HB. Bearing that in mind, I say we stick with our previous suspicions and knock out Andrex unless someone has a convincing reason why we shouldn't.

I can extensively argue that Evil_Andrex is a bad vote later if necessary. But now that I've established a safe vote for this round, I don't see why we need to side with Andrex over Roger.

Summary

My gambit is game-deciding. Either you explicitly assert that I am Hellbourne and provide stronger evidence than I've given otherwise, or you agree that RogerDodger is a good vote.

Legion players should vote RogerDodger.

Anyone who is not Legion will hesitate to vote for Roger. I cannot conclude that because someone hesitates, they are Hellbourne; but I can conclude that if you vote Roger, then you are working in Legion's interests.

[Octavia]

In all your colour filled text I failed to actually see any reason for anyone to vote for me. You played a good argument to your own innocence, but just being Legion alone doesn't imply guilt on me. I'm shocked myself that Hellbourne haven't killed me earlier, but there's a few very plausible (and obvious) reasons for it.

Hellbourne trying to frame me
Hellbourne assumed there would still be some chance of Jeraziah being on me (i.e., there would be a chance of Jeraziah being on either Yukari or myself, thus targeting either of us was not worth it).

There are a lot of players in this game right now who know how to play this game, and some of them are most definitely Hellbourne. You can't just predict them to always hunt down the alpha-townie, because that's not always the smartest thing to do. They can just as easily avoid killing the strong townie to have people irk suspicion at him still being alive.

As far as my more 'defensive play' style is concerned, that's not necessarily true. The only different between how I played last game and this game is that I had no need to be the town leader because Yukari assumed that straight from the start. There wasn't a need for me to create conversation and controversy when it was already being created.

I'm not going to play aggressively on people without a reason, and so far in this game I haven't had much of a feeling towards anyone being particularly scummy other than _; when I got that feeling towards his scumminess I basically 'attacked' him straight away.

[Zwai]

You misunderstand, Roger. My post exhorts the logical implications of my gambit; it is not a justification for playing the gambit in the first place.

Assuming I hold steady on my vote, then either you are Legion and we lose regardless(as Bobble said); or you are Hellbourne and we might as well vote you out.

And for that matter, if I've established my own innocence like you say then turning the votes around on me causes us(the Legion) to lose. You can debate whether my gambit was a good move; but now that it is done it is clear the best move is to vote you out.

[Javu]

Current votes required to end day: 7
Just wanted to point this out to everyone. At the moment it would require 2 Legion votes for HB to do a pile on vote and win. So be careful jumping on this roger wagon

[Zwai]

Just wanted to point this out to everyone. At the moment it would require 2 Legion votes for HB to do a pile on vote and win. So be careful jumping on this roger wagon

Nolifer has already voted, as have I.

(edit) No, Javu is correct here. If every single person on the Legion side decides to vote otherwise, my gambit will have no effect.

I urge you if you are Legion to vote Roger; I need only 1 vote for it to go through as planned. My arguments show that I am Legion and speak for the Legion people.

[Octavia]

You misunderstand, Roger. My post exhorts the logical implications of my gambit; it is not a justification for playing the gambit in the first place.

Assuming I hold steady on my vote, then either you are Legion and we lose regardless(as Bobble said); or you are Hellbourne and we might as well vote you out.

And for that matter, if I've established my own innocence like you say then turning the votes around on me causes us(the Legion) to lose. You can debate whether my gambit was a good move; but now that it is done it is clear the best move is to vote you out.
You're going to have to explain that a little more carefully, because all it is to me right now is a single blind vote. Considering without you we still outnumber Hellbourne by 1, it's not exactly like you're locking us into a black vs white gambit. We could just as well ignore you and use our 6 townie votes to find the Hellbourne.

[Nolifer]

Unvote No-lynch

[Nolifer]

Look at that, FlameStick currently online but nowhere near this thread.

[Javu]

Alright, there's quite a bit to be said about this 'gambit' and Nomes' allegiance.

Firstly, I don't think Nomes is HB. As he said, Yukari assumed the townie leader role from the start, so there is no reason for Nomes to. If we have 2 people being incredibly vocal and trying to force everyone into their scumhunting plans then its going to be utter chaos and legion will end up confused. Besides, what if he doesn't want to play townie leader this game? It takes a ton of effort so maybe he wanted to take a back seat this game.

Also, because of the switch up in playstyle it puts a bit of suspicion on him. HB can use it to push a lynch. Also your logic for why he is HB can easily be used by HB to convince legion that he is scum. Honestly if I was HB I would've kept him around for that reason. He isn't playing townie leader this game, so he isn't that much of a threat to HB, not as much as Yukari was. However, legion players know he is good and would expect him to be night killed. If he doesn't get night killed that can cause them to question whether he is HB and that can be used to push a lynch on him. Besides, Nomes' allegiance has been questioned many times during this game, night killing him removes an easy target.

Also regarding you trying to prove your innocence. Sure, as a HB you could've just sat back and rode the waves while legion kill eachother and said nothing, just following on from Ryoki's play. But then how can you influence legion? Let's face it, Yukari's last ditch effort put the HB in a lot of ****. I mean, what if we vote Andrex and he flips HB? What if we follow with a vote on Emiya and he flips HB? HB aren't looking too great then.

HB only need one more miss-lynch to seal the game, and you know dam well Andrex was going to be lynched. So if you come out full force and play aggressive, you can easily use the shield that 'If I'm HB why wouldn't I just play like Ryoki and sit back and win without doing anything?' and push a lynch on someone innocent.

I also want to point out something to all legion players. Don't lose heart. Don't fall for this GG legion are in the **** and going to lose rubbish. We're completely fine. Look at last game, it got to LYLO before they hit their first HB and won the game and they lynched their scout day 1. Legion are never in a bad position until the game is over

[Nolifer]

FlameStick is hellbourne to me, if the game really bored him so much, he would've asked for replacement long ago.
He might do just that once he reads this post of mine.

He's intentionally acting inactive in order to avoid attention.

[Octavia]

Fetyukov, and Flamestick are probably the most scummy people at the moment due to being inactive, but Fetyukov hasn't been as active on the forums as a whole which is what makes Flamestick look more suspicious. I'd agree to voting Flamestick right now as I think out of everyone right now he seems the most scummy.

[Nolifer]

Eh, black text not allowed, kk whatever.

[Nolifer]

Btw vahn, stalking is allowed, right?

[Vahn]

Stalking as in posting very little and just reading? or checking the forum activity?

[Javu]

Sure Flamestick looks pretty scummy right now but do we really want to use our final vote on an inactive? I still think the chuth bandwagon, combined with Yukari's day 1 self vote can give us a ton of information that we can make a vote using

[Nolifer]

Stalking as in posting very little and just reading? or checking the forum activity?
checking forum activity

[ShadowExile]

I agree Javu. We need to consider our final vote very well before anyone takes the leap to do anything. He said before that the game had got a bit boring for him before so maybe he's just not taking his time to check it constantly like we are. Our last vote is probably not best spent on an inactive, because being inactive isn't the 100% scumtell we need to actually pull through this day and the next night. If we DO mislynch here, it actually is GG, so let's not make that fatal mistake. We need to actually consider what people are posting, rather than what they aren't. If we get through this day by lynching a Hellbourne, then the ratio will shift and we should be able to reconsider my proposal. But until then, it is FAR too risky to run after the inactives.

[Octavia]

Sure Flamestick looks pretty scummy right now but do we really want to use our final vote on an inactive? I still think the chuth bandwagon, combined with Yukari's day 1 self vote can give us a ton of information that we can make a vote using
I disagree. What he's said so far combined with his plentiful activity throughout the rest of the forum is enough to make a conclusion and he clearly hints towards trying to slink in the shadows hoping town eats itself.

[Nolifer]

I agree Javu. We need to consider our final vote very well before anyone takes the leap to do anything. He said before that the game had got a bit boring for him before so maybe he's just not taking his time to check it constantly like we are. Our last vote is probably not best spent on an inactive, because being inactive isn't the 100% scumtell we need to actually pull through this day and the next night. If we DO mislynch here, it actually is GG, so let's not make that fatal mistake. We need to actually consider what people are posting, rather than what they aren't. If we get through this day by lynching a Hellbourne, then the ratio will shift and we should be able to reconsider my proposal. But until then, it is FAR too risky to run after the inactives.
If he's hb, this would be the exact kind of thoughts he's trying to provoke among us. However, I will take this slow.

[Vahn]

checking forum activity

I can't really stop people from doing it, so I won't try to. In other words yes you can do it.

[Nolifer]

FlameStick will drop by in this thread soon.

[Nolifer]

Or not, FlameStick ends his forum session after 15 mins of reading about the female mind.

Interesting.

[YawningAngel]

If Flamestick were HB, he'd defend himself. He appears to just genuinely not care.

[Zwai]

You're going to have to explain that a little more carefully, because all it is to me right now is a single blind vote. Considering without you we still outnumber Hellbourne by 1, it's not exactly like you're locking us into a black vs white gambit. We could just as well ignore you and use our 6 townie votes to find the Hellbourne.

You're right, Roger. While I was planning my gambit, I was working off of the base assumption that I needed 6 votes(from Bobble) rather than 7. I admit this is an error.

If a single Legion player votes for Roger, my gambit will go through as intended. If the entire group of 6 of you do not trust my gambit and vote otherwise, then you are forced to seek help from the Hellbourne to get that 7th vote.

Hellbourne knows this; as long as every Hellbourne player does not vote for one of their own, you cannot lynch them tonight. They could laugh and brag about how tasty you'll be tonight out loud all over the forums; and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

I understand you don't want to be strong-armed into voting(and if they did brag like that, I would switch my vote of course), but we need literally every last vote to lynch someone. I claim that Roger is our best bet, and that my gambit is the best way to ensure the required block of 7.


I also want to point out something to all legion players. Don't lose heart. Don't fall for this GG legion are in the **** and going to lose rubbish.

You're right. We, the Legion, can pull this off with my gambit.


HB only need one more miss-lynch to seal the game, and you know dam well Andrex was going to be lynched. So if you come out full force and play aggressive, you can easily use the shield that 'If I'm HB why wouldn't I just play like Ryoki and sit back and win without doing anything?' and push a lynch on someone innocent.

There's an interesting property about my gambit: I *need* to get everybody on the Legion team to believe that I'm Legion or it fails(and my team loses this round). And here's why:

If I'm Legion, I count as one of the Legion votes. The Legion is now unable to force a lynch on anybody except my target. If the Hellbourne votes on only Legion players, they are immune to a lynching(and will win the game next round). So me "blind voting" as Roger puts it forces you to match my vote to have any collective power.

But if you think I'm Hellbourne, then you guys have the power to lynch someone without me. My gambit can't "force" you to do anything(see below for more on "forcing")

So you see, if *every* Legion player here believes I'm Legion, my gambit will follow through.

My gambit depends so strongly on you realizing that I am a legitimate Legion player that I ask you not to casually throw around the possibility that I'm Hellbourne(which will doom Legion because of the nature of the gambit).

Feel free to make a specific accusation that I am Hellbourne, so that I know whether I need to expand on this point. I am Legion and will provide whatever evidence I can, but you must explicitly tell me you think I'm Hellbourne if you care about the Legion team. Otherwise, Legion's votes will be scattered and we will lose.

Also, feel free to tell me if you don't quite buy my gambit "forcing" you to do something. The word "forcing" sounds negative, but you're meant to try to win at a game. I expect everyone else here to care about winning only, so I make assumptions in my analysis that you won't "everybody vote against Zwai because he's strong-arming us and it's not fun" because this is a losing move.


Also regarding you trying to prove your innocence. Sure, as a HB you could've just sat back and rode the waves while legion kill eachother and said nothing, just following on from Ryoki's play. But then how can you influence legion? Let's face it, Yukari's last ditch effort put the HB in a lot of ****. I mean, what if we vote Andrex and he flips HB? What if we follow with a vote on Emiya and he flips HB? HB aren't looking too great then.

An interesting point. I certainly get a psychological pleasure from being the White Knight who rides in and saves the Legion team from their own incompetence, organizing them into a fearsome team to combat the seemingly flawless Hellbourne threat with his cleverly thought-out schemes.

I wouldn't idle by on the Hellbourne team either, but where's the fun in joining the winning team in the middle of the game? My schemes look all the more impressive when I bring a team from the brink of defeat to a solid victory, against none other than RogerDodger who has proved a worthy opponent in the past.

I'll have to think about whether this constitutes an argument for or against me, but it's interesting to consider nonetheless.

[ShadowExile]

You're right, Roger. While I was planning my gambit, I was working off of the base assumption that I needed 6 votes(from Bobble) rather than 7. I admit this is an error.

If a single Legion player votes for Roger, my gambit will go through as intended. If the entire group of 6 of you do not trust my gambit and vote otherwise, then you are forced to seek help from the Hellbourne to get that 7th vote.

Hellbourne knows this; as long as every Hellbourne player does not vote for one of their own, you cannot lynch them tonight. They could laugh and brag about how tasty you'll be tonight out loud all over the forums; and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

I understand you don't want to be strong-armed into voting(and if they did brag like that, I would switch my vote of course), but we need literally every last vote to lynch someone. I claim that Roger is our best bet, and that my gambit is the best way to ensure the required block of 7.



You're right. We, the Legion, can pull this off with my gambit.



There's an interesting property about my gambit: I *need* to get everybody on the Legion team to believe that I'm Legion or it fails(and my team loses this round). And here's why:

If I'm Legion, I count as one of the Legion votes. The Legion is now unable to force a lynch on anybody except my target. If the Hellbourne votes on only Legion players, they are immune to a lynching(and will win the game next round). So me "blind voting" as Roger puts it forces you to match my vote to have any collective power.

But if you think I'm Hellbourne, then you guys have the power to lynch someone without me. My gambit can't "force" you to do anything(see below for more on "forcing")

So you see, if *every* Legion player here believes I'm Legion, my gambit will follow through.

My gambit depends so strongly on you realizing that I am a legitimate Legion player that I ask you not to casually throw around the possibility that I'm Hellbourne(which will doom Legion because of the nature of the gambit).

Feel free to make a specific accusation that I am Hellbourne, so that I know whether I need to expand on this point. I am Legion and will provide whatever evidence I can, but you must explicitly tell me you think I'm Hellbourne if you care about the Legion team. Otherwise, Legion's votes will be scattered and we will lose.

Also, feel free to tell me if you don't quite buy my gambit "forcing" you to do something. The word "forcing" sounds negative, but you're meant to try to win at a game. I expect everyone else here to care about winning only, so I make assumptions in my analysis that you won't "everybody vote against Zwai because he's strong-arming us and it's not fun" because this is a losing move.



An interesting point. I certainly get a psychological pleasure from being the White Knight who rides in and saves the Legion team from their own incompetence, organizing them into a fearsome team to combat the seemingly flawless Hellbourne threat with his cleverly thought-out schemes.

I wouldn't idle by on the Hellbourne team either, but where's the fun in joining the winning team in the middle of the game? My schemes look all the more impressive when I bring a team from the brink of defeat to a solid victory, against none other than RogerDodger who has proved a worthy opponent in the past.

I'll have to think about whether this constitutes an argument for or against me, but it's interesting to consider nonetheless.

Omg ffs dude, it was just 2:59 and even though it's now 2:02 (time went back an hour), stop ****ing writing so much, quoting so much and highlighting so much. I really don't have the energy to read so much about your gambit. There are 5 hellbourne, sure one of them could be NomesWisdom but how about trying to crack down on all 5 rather than focus firing one who actually seems to be legitimately Legion in my personal perspective.

[Zwai]

Omg ffs dude, it was just 2:59 and even though it's now 2:02 (time went back an hour), stop ****ing writing so much, quoting so much and highlighting so much. I really don't have the energy to read so much about your gambit. There are 5 hellbourne, sure one of them could be NomesWisdom but how about trying to crack down on all 5 rather than focus firing one who actually seems to be legitimately Legion in my personal perspective.

I know Roger's a Hellbourne, and we can only kick one person per round. Next round, if I'm assured someone is Hellbourne then I'll focus-fire them too.

In any case, I'm not sure what exactly "cracking down on all 5" entails; can I have 5 votes this round?

All you need to know is that Legion players should vote against Roger. You can read more of my reasoning if you like, but I make it purely optional by highlighting the main points.

[ShadowExile]

I know Roger's a Hellbourne, and we can only kick one person per round. Next round, if I'm assured someone is Hellbourne then I'll focus-fire them too.

In any case, I'm not sure what exactly "cracking down on all 5" entails; can I have 5 votes this round?

All you need to know is that Legion players should vote against Roger. You can read more of my reasoning if you like, but I make it purely optional by highlighting the main points.

I did read about 2 pages worth of your reasoning and it hasn't convinced me at all. Hellbourne may have assumed that he was being protected by Jeraziah, and in that case left him alive (as a safer option for them not to waste a lynch), and then when someone says, "Hey why is a big player like Nomes still alive?", that also plays to their advantage, because then Jeraziah's protection means nothing in a lynch. It's truly a win-win situation. However if we kill a Hellbourne today and Nomes is still alive after the night, then yeah I would probably agree that he'd be Hellbourne. Unless a Hellbourne read this post and convinced the other Hellbourne not to kill Nomes so that they can get a free kill and then we would lynch Nomes and lose.

The above example is called circular referencing and reasoning, and it basically means **** all. There are a bunch of possibilites with reverse and reverse reverse psychology in this game that the mere fact that Nomes is still alive is meaningless in actually observing his true allegiance.

[Yukari]

Ohh, I wake up to two pages of juicy accusations

[YawningAngel]

Zwai's arguments can be applied to literally anyone here, making them worthless.

[Lucian01]

DAY 5 - Zwai's gambit

This day will be remembered as Zwai's defining moment as a late-join honwolf player. He'll either break the game or make it!

Good luck Zwai, and remember, newerth is watching!

:moon: :doct: :glac: :temp: :pred: :trem: :fors: :swif: :zeph: :chip: :mali: :blac: :bloo: :valk: :pand: :balp: :myrm:

[Zwai]

Zwai's arguments can be applied to literally anyone here, making them worthless.

My argument can be applied to anyone who is in that 66% trust range I mentioned. Roger is not only assuredly Hellbourne(to me), but I feel I can convince you guys I'm more trustworthy than him.


I did read about 2 pages worth of your reasoning and it hasn't convinced me at all. Hellbourne may have assumed that he was being protected by Jeraziah, and in that case left him alive (as a safer option for them not to waste a lynch), and then when someone says, "Hey why is a big player like Nomes still alive?", that also plays to their advantage, because then Jeraziah's protection means nothing in a lynch. It's truly a win-win situation. However if we kill a Hellbourne today and Nomes is still alive after the night, then yeah I would probably agree that he'd be Hellbourne. Unless a Hellbourne read this post and convinced the other Hellbourne not to kill Nomes so that they can get a free kill and then we would lynch Nomes and lose.

The above example is called circular referencing and reasoning, and it basically means **** all. There are a bunch of possibilites with reverse and reverse reverse psychology in this game that the mere fact that Nomes is still alive is meaningless in actually observing his true allegiance.

Again, I'm not arguing *why* I played my vote in the first place(which seems to be what you're looking for); I am arguing that now that I have picked out Roger, the best move for any Legion player is to go along with me. You will lose otherwise.

An aside: Your example paragraph is an example of bad reasoning in general, I agree; but it's not circular reasoning.



DAY 5 - Zwai's gambit

This day will be remembered as Zwai's defining moment as a late-join honwolf player. He'll either break the game or make it!

Good luck Zwai, and remember, newerth is watching!

:moon: :doct: :glac: :temp: :pred: :trem: :fors: :swif: :zeph: :chip: :mali: :blac: :bloo: :valk: :pand: :balp: :myrm:



I will not let my fans down!

[YawningAngel]

Frankly, you strike me as a Hellbourne. No Legion player would pull "follow me or you lose" because you'd know full well that you'd be questioned, thus losing us the game. I say we screw what you have to say and just knock Andrex off. The reasons for a lynch were good then and they're good now.

[ElementUser]

FlameStick will drop by in this thread soon.

Soon™

[Evil_Andrex]

Who ARE you Zwai, and how do you know enough about me to know that I was RwR's mascot?!

I'm not his little brother. I just did everything he asked...

[Javu]

Again, I'm not arguing *why* I played my vote in the first place(which seems to be what you're looking for); I am arguing that now that I have picked out Roger, the best move for any Legion player is to go along with me. You will lose otherwise.
Explain how we will lose otherwise?

Alright, lets take a look at how we stand:
7 votes are required to lynch today
Legion have 7 votes
Hellbourne have 5 votes

So as long as everyone on legion votes the same person we can still make a lynch.

Now, with your 'gambit' you've basically said that your going to be stubborn and vote Roger, and we can either join you or not be able to make a lynch on anyone else.

If I'm Legion, I count as one of the Legion votes. The Legion is now unable to force a lynch on anybody except my target. If the Hellbourne votes on only Legion players, they are immune to a lynching(and will win the game next round). So me "blind voting" as Roger puts it forces you to match my vote to have any collective power.
There's two problems with this:
1. You ruled out the possibility of Hellbourne bussing eachother. It happens all the time around LYLO. Generally by this point in the game legion have got a read on someone scum and that person is going to die. It usually ends up in a chain reaction that sees a good few HB getting lynched. So HB start to panic and see there easy win slipping away and start voting/hammering other HB in an effort to make themselves look clear.
If we vote Andrex this will probably happen, so therefore if your legion then we only need one HB vote to kill him.

2. If your HB then we still have 7 collective votes and we can just ignore your gambit.

Honestly, I'm not even slightly convinced that Roger is HB. Got any better evidence?

[Yukari]

Who ARE you Zwai, and how do you know enough about me to know that I was RwR's mascot?!

I'm not his little brother. I just did everything he asked...

You're not a very good detective are you...

[Yukari]

walloftext

Is it 7 votes required or 6? I think one of you is confused. Frankly I'm not sure.

[Octavia]

http://i51.tinypic.com/35jz3go.gif
http://i56.tinypic.com/9iequf.gif

n = 12 (7 Legion, 5 Hellbourne)
f(12) = 7

[Yukari]

That makes more sense.
I'm also amazed at the rate that this guy is able to gather followers and fans. Nevermind the obscure shrine dedicated to his name on minecraft.

[Octavia]

That makes more sense.
I'm also amazed at the rate that this guy is able to gather followers and fans. Nevermind the obscure shrine dedicated to his name on minecraft.And why does he think I'm the captain of my HoN team?

[Vexium]

but u is pharaoh yami yugi

[Fetyukov]

Huh. I'm not even sure what to think anymore.

I understand your gambit but what I don't understand is your choice of target, you could have picked literally anyone for this gambit, myself, Evil_andrex, flamestick and the outcome would be the same, only difference is that most of us don't see much scummyness from roger. You have your magical 66% threshold, but I don't see how roger is above the 66% whereas flamestick is not, maybe I'm missing something here.

I agree with nolifer on this one, there's no way flamestick is inactive for this wrong unintentionally, I would see fit to lynching him this round. He can't be an under-active legion power role, I think he might be hb. I would send my vote this way if others agree.

[GrimmShado]

well, odds are at least grim... however all that gambit seems quite pointless for me.

[Evil_Andrex]

Well, we haven't been right ONCE with all our "YOU ARE SO SCUMMY" strategy... that says a lot about our play so far.

[GrimmShado]

Well, i wouldnt say that is all our fault. The lynchees begged for it.

[Zwai]

Well, we haven't been right ONCE with all our "YOU ARE SO SCUMMY" strategy... that says a lot about our play so far.

Andrex, if you agree that I'm Legion then all I need is 1 more Legion vote on Roger to go through with the full force of my gambit.

I don't mean to pressure you; but I'm understandably meeting alot of resistance and even though I made the mistake of thinking it was 6 instead of 7, just one vote will restore my plan back to full power.

It's understandable if you're skeptical of me(especially if I'm trying to get your vote); but you only need to be less than 66% sure that I'm Hellbourne, and otherwise people will lynch you anyways.

[Octavia]

Andrex, if you agree that I'm Legion then all I need is 1 more Legion vote on Roger to go through with the full force of my gambit.

I don't mean to pressure you; but I'm understandably meeting alot of resistance and even though I made the mistake of thinking it was 6 instead of 7, just one vote will restore my plan back to full power.

It's understandable if you're skeptical of me(especially if I'm trying to get your vote); but you only need to be less than 66% sure that I'm Hellbourne, and otherwise people will lynch you anyways.
That doesn't help you in the slightest when Andrex could so easily be Hellbourne.

Instead of attempting to force town into doing your own selfish bidding why don't you try a more traditional route? Your pathetic little game isn't going to work, and I'm surprised by the audacity of your confidence when you've no reason to conclude my guilt.

You're playing the game by numbers in a manner that simply won't work.

[Zwai]

That doesn't help you in the slightest when Andrex could so easily be Hellbourne.

Point taken, Roger. I assumed Andrex was Legion: if he is Hellbourne, then it lends a bit of influence to kicking you but the logic doesn't actually force it through.

If Andrex is Legion, however, him voting for you will be enough to set my plan into motion.

Either way, his vote helps you get kicked. And I'm sure you're Hellbourne.


Instead of attempting to force town into doing your own selfish bidding why don't you try a more traditional route? Your pathetic little game isn't going to work, and I'm surprised by the audacity of your confidence when you've no reason to conclude my guilt.

You're playing the game by numbers in a manner that simply won't work

I fight with audacity because His Eminence guides my every step. By his might I fight with confidence. By his wisdom I fight with assured calculation.

[Octavia]

Go back to your tentacle porn, Burge. The only reason to assume your innocence is because of your confidence. Considering your character and knowledge of the people in this game it's fairly obvious that you're Michael Burge.

I don't know how experienced you are at mafia, but I know you would make a big commotion out of your entrance regardless of your affiliation. I know everyone here knows you're smart enough to produce this confidence for Hellbourne's final push to victory. This is why your assertiveness does not identify you as Legion in the slightest. At first I was assuming you're just naive, but now that I know your true persona my action from here is obvious.

Vote: Zwai

[Zwai]

Go back to your tentacle porn, Burge. The only reason to assume your innocence is because of your confidence. Considering your character and knowledge of the people in this game it's fairly obvious that you're Michael Burge.

I don't know how experienced you are at mafia, but I know you would make a big commotion out of your entrance regardless of your affiliation. I know everyone here knows you're smart enough to produce this confidence for Hellbourne's final push to victory. This is why your assertiveness does not identify you as Legion in the slightest.

At first I was assuming you're just naive, but now that I know your true persona my action from here is obvious.

Vote: Zwai

I cloak my arguments with a dash of prose, I agree; they add a bit of personality. But my arguments are quite solid.

Certainly nobody could say Michael Burge is unable to make intelligent arguments. I can point to a long history of posting which says otherwise, with the most obvious example being my thread in the PSR Mechanics section detailing various flaws in the current implementation.

But is there something hiding beneath it? Is Michael Burge secretly plotting for the Hellbourne team? Certainly his posting style fits with him, but that's not an inherent argument for him being Hellbourne.

Consider what you know if Burge: He loves not to win, but to be a winner. As vacuously equivalent as that might sound, do you really think the One True Burge would make such a splash if he were leading Hellbourne to victory? Would he waste his time on such an elaborate scheme if he was helping the winning team win?

Maybe it seems like a Psychology trick and isn't valuable(like Shadow says), but think what you will Roger - I don't need your help to win the game For Legion.

My gambit will go through when Andrex(whom my studies indicate is Legion) realizes I'm the best hope for the Legion team(and if he fails, I'm sure someone else will).

I'm not really scared of your vote, Roger. You're desperate and tried to reveal my "secret identity" as a last ditch to cover yourself. Hellbourne's going to lynch me tonight for sure anyways, but when steam picks up and it's clear you're going to be lynched, I'm going to post my final instructions to all Legion players. If they follow them, they will force a victory over Hellbourne. They will trust my instructions because they will see my gambit worked, and that I was seen as a threat by Hellbourne.

[Octavia]

On the contrary, following you would be synonymous to suicide.


Consider what you know if Burge: He loves not to win, but to be a winner. As vacuously equivalent as that might sound, do you really think the One True Burge would make such a splash if he were leading Hellbourne to victory? Would he waste his time on such an elaborate scheme if we was helping the winning team win?

MichaelBurge loves to make everyone feel beneath him. By creating such a seemingly worthless scheme to ensure Hellbourne's victory he would achieve exactly that.

[Zwai]

Roger brings up my "character" when he's traditionally dissected posts point-by-point.


On the contrary, following you would be synonymous to suicide.



MichaelBurge loves to make everyone feel beneath him. By creating such a seemingly worthless scheme to ensure Hellbourne's victory he would achieve exactly that.

You're falling apart Roger. I feel it in your panicking textual voice. You're worried at the prospect of getting knocked out of this game.

"Michael Burge loves to make everyone feel beneath him" is maybe not the way I'd say it; but you're certainly feeling beneath me right now.

Ah, sweet victory is so close!

[Octavia]

Nobody could deny that you're arrogant.

[Yukari]

wtf is this game turning into

[Zwai]

Nobody could deny that you're arrogant.

Michael Burge is modest in comparison to the extent of his talents. Would you like me to list out my many accomplishments, Roger? Shall we engage in a discussion of how deserving Michael Burge is of his supposed "arrogance"?

Oh, how far has Roger fallen, that he's been reduced to posting one-line emotionally charged posts in a desperate attempt to stay in. You will lose Roger, and Legion will win. You cannot stop it; what I have started today will go through.

I propose a counter-gambit. If you are so sure that you are Legion, I stake the name of Michael Burge himself that you are Hellbourne. If you voted for yourself, Roger, and it turns out you are Legion; you will have shamed the name of Michael Burge and disqualified him from any future trickery in his games.

The word of Burge is strong and true. He has maintained this through all of his vast posting history, and we would never stake the value of his name on a mere forum game. To never be able to shout the name of Michael Burge from the hilltops without feeling shame, you think I would lie?

I run an entire Minecraft server with people building monuments in his name. Come to my server, and tell my people how Michael Burge staked his name on a false claim. Tell them he staked his name on a lie. Accept my gambit, and lose the battle but win the war.

Roger. Is. Hellbourne.

[Octavia]

Michael Burge is modest in comparison to the extent of his talents. Would you like me to list out my many accomplishments, Roger? Shall we engage in a discussion of how deserving Michael Burge is of his supposed "arrogance"?

Oh, how far has Roger fallen, that he's been reduced to posting one-line emotionally charged posts in a desperate attempt to stay in. You will lose Roger, and Legion will win. You cannot stop it; what I have started today will go through.

I propose a counter-gambit. If you are so sure that you are Legion, I stake the name of Michael Burge himself that you are Hellbourne. If you voted for yourself, Roger, and it turns out you are Legion; you will have shamed the name of Michael Burge and disqualified him from any future trickery in his games.

The word of Burge is strong and true. He has maintained this through all of his vast posting history, and we would never stake the value of his name on a mere forum game. To never be able to shout the name of Michael Burge from the hilltops without feeling shame, you think I would lie?

I run an entire Minecraft server with people building monuments in his name. Come to my server, and tell my people how Michael Burge staked his name on a false claim. Tell them he staked his name on a lie. Accept my gambit, and lose the battle but win the war.

Roger. Is. Hellbourne.
Your accomplishments are nothing but self perpetuated drivel unto a community of self-loathing sheep. You control people with assertiveness in the HoN Forums world just as you attempt now to control the Town with assertiveness in the Hon Werewolf world.

You've already noted the contingency of this town being unable to think for itself, and you prey on that, you rely on it. The only thing that feeds you is the praise of sheep, and your accomplishments are so short-listed that you really are comparable to a god. Only fools worship gods, just like only fools worship you.

Your facade of wisdom is a perfect tool on those who are weak. But know I'm not so gullible, and can see through this thinly veiled confidence from a player who gets thrown on support to make room for the real players. You insult me for even thinking I'd take up your offer.

For a man with so many accomplishments, you sure have a high need for pampering of the ones you can list. You assume I care more for your name than this game. Take note of this - I care more about this game than a stake in your name, consider this an insult to your intelligence and your name.

[Ryper7]

oh sh**, who let Burge into the game....

although he has brought some character in

[Yukari]

oh sh**, who let Burge into the game....

Vahn
Also, support players everywhere takes offense from your post, roger.

[Vahn]

oh sh**, who let Burge into the game....

although he has brought some character in
Vahn
Also, support players everywhere takes offense from your post, roger.

Who else can lol.

[Yukari]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/account_icons/eye_heart_hon.png
ofcourse

[Vahn]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/account_icons/eye_heart_hon.png
ofcourse

By far the best derp of them all.

[Bobble]

Oh god, Zwai is Burge. I can't believe I didn't see that. This just makes the whole thing hilariously funny.

[Zwai]

Vote: MichaelBurge

Today begins a new era in an age of despondence. Michael Burge is not merely bluffing his way to victory; he puts his money where his mouth is. He proposes a second gambit, the extent of which outclassing even his first.

As a fellow Legion player, this loud new guy comes waltzing onto the scene stirring up a huge fuss. How can you trust him? How can you trust this guy, even though his arguments seem so confident? I propose that all players do this move, which will establish who's who: Here is your move: Vote for me if and only if you are 100% sure that I am Hellbourne(this includes Hellbourne players as well).

My good friend, there are exactly 2 cases: Either I am Legion, or I am Hellbourne.

Case 1:

Suppose for the moment that I am Legion: If Roger is Legion as well, we have just lost the game; I have made a poor decision and your vote is worthless. If Roger is Hellbourne(as I suspect), then Hellbourne is incapable of lynching me. Hellbourne only has 5 players, so they need 2 Legion players to vote on me; if you play your move like I say, they can't do this and we establish his guilt.

If we do not lose after my vote in this case, Roger is guilty.

Case 2:

Suppose for the moment that I am Hellbourne. Refer to my claim below where I argue that ShadowExile, RogerDodger, and YawningAngel are working together(regardless of affiliation).

Let ShadowExile, RogerDodger, and YawningAngel vote against me. This is 3 Legion votes, my vote, so I only need 3 Hellbourne votes to lynch me. I urge you, my Hellbourne brothers, to vote against me in this case. We will feast on Legion blood; their flesh filling our ever-hungry bellies: By voting against me, you have presented your name in the clear light as Legion and will have an advantage next round.

If I am Hellbourne, then voting according to my method guarantees Legion a sure kill.

Claim: RogerDodger, ShadowExile, and YawningAngel have been organized this entire time.


Consider the voting for day 1. Roger, my decidedly angry rival, jumps on Yukari to start the day off. Everybody except the Lord Burge himself makes mistakes, so this is nothing to scoff at. But then Otolia follows with a lynch as well.

Why do we care about Otolia here? Because he was replaced by ShadowExile. How do we know this is a bit fishy? Notice that YawningAngel(here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=13189982#post13189982)) accuses Yukari of wanting to lynch on the first day because this is a good Hellbourne strategy. But notice that he jumps on the 4th person to vote Yukari, not the first three. If he were worried about Yukari lynching too early, he would surely pick the earliest lynchers!

This doesn't directly establish a 3-way organization, but consider on Page 42 the unmistable ganging up on him yet again. Their first time failed, but this time they succeed with Jeraziah's shielding down.

This time again, they are agreeing with each other against me. This does not constitute a proof, I'll admit: but note that my suggested move for you is very safe if you are Legion: "If you are Legion, do not vote against me (Unless you are 100% convinced that I am Hellbourne) during this second gambit while we determine who's who." Not voting is a safe choice, and that's all I'm asking you to do.


What is my conclusion?

If I am Legion, then either we have lost(and you cannot stop it) or we determine RogerDodger's guilt.

If I am Hellbourne, then Legion nets a Hellbourne kill. This actually benefits both teams: Hellbourne gains the trust of Legion, and Legion kills a Hellbourne player. All I want to establish is that voting the way I tell you benefits Legion.

In any case, voting like I suggested above will ensure that Legion benefits this round. That is, if you are Legion, do *not* vote for me unless you are RogerDodger or his companions. If you are Hellbourne, feel free to vote for me.


If at any time I have won the trust of a fellow Legion player, please vote against Roger and my first gambit can be applied to force him out.

[Yukari]

When you see it, bricks will be shat.

[Vexium]

who is michael burge? and no, i don't mean who in this game

[Chuth]

A troll

[Yukari]

Though the quality of his troll threads were higher than average.

[Bobble]

He's a very successful troll. Very egotistical, very intelligent, and is apt at getting people to, umm, how shall I put it, worshiping him. I knew him when he was a nobody, but he is very quick at establishing himself into almost anything, at least thats the vibe I gathered from him. As you can see, Roger doesn't like him very much, but I love Burgey. i think he's a riot.

[Lucian01]

who is michael burge? and no, i don't mean who in this game
A man of many gambits. It even seems he bothered to read from day 1 even though the game is likely to end tonight, now that's dedication. :corr:

[Javu]

Holy ****, just let me get some popcorn guys

Nah in all seriousness, the way you've set up your 'counter gambit' it only has 2 possible outcomes. Roger dies or Roger dies.

You currently have 2 votes (providing that voting for Michael Burge actually counts as a self vote). If both those votes are legion HB can wagon onto you and kill you. However, if one of those votes is HB then you will be safe. The problem is, you state that if you do not die then that vote HAS to be rogers and therefore he is proven guilty.

Your second outcome technically can't happen in the setup. You claim that if your vote is HB then 3 specific players should vote you and we should hammer you, which apparently 'clears' everyone on the wagon.

However you know that the first outcome can only happen as one of the 2 votes against you is HB, so you won't get mass hammered by HB and die. As stated above you claim that if this happens then Roger is proven guilty and we should lynch him. However, you don't state the fact that you won't die because the HB vote is yours. As HB already have a vote on you (your own vote) you only have 4 votes left to make a lynch out of the 5 needed. So apart from the fact that HB wouldn't hammer you anyway, they couldn't even if they wanted to. It proves your guilt more than it does Roger's.

Also, the same is the case for your original gambit on Roger. You claim that if you get one more 'legion' vote and he doesn't get mass hammered by HB then he is proven guilty, but if your vote is HB then he HB can't mass hammer him so it doesn't prove ****. Besides, your trying to convince Andrex, one of the most obv scum players in this game to be your 'second legion vote'. That would make 2 HB votes on Roger and there would be no way he could get mass hammered.

Your logic is so, I dunno, flawed, 'retarded' even. You seem to think this game is black and white when in fact its everything in between.

[ShadowExile]

I'd like to mention firstly that perhaps Burge's gambit would work in a game of epicmafia, where the maximum game duration is about 10 minutes and all the players are all awake and forced to play at the same time. In that case, the Hellbourne or Mafia would be able to instantly do a bandwagon quickly if it was the last round and win the game. In a game such as this, when it required 5 Hellbourne votes to kill Roger and thus (probably) win the game, and everyone is in a different timezone and viewing this thread at a different time, it is impossible for the Hellbourne to certainly bandwagon fast enough to actually cause Roger's death in a way that wouldn't make them all IMMEDIATELY obvious to the Legion observing the game.

I doubt the Hellbourne would risk exposing all 5 of their ranks when they are so close to winning this game. Your gambit is pretty pathetic when looking at it from the angles that myself and a few others have observed, and really has no science behind it, so I won't really take your word on it. You have come in with a pretty big bang and I remember how much Burge loved to troll. Whilst I did enjoy one of your trolls every now and then, I can only believe you are trying to troll again for the ultimate Hellbourne win, which makes me suspect you greatly. On that note,

Vote: Zwei

Though my suspicion for Andrex still remains, that is something that should wait for when we finally get back ahead of the Hellbourne.

[Ryper7]

gotta admit, burgey was one of the trolls that actually made me lol quite a bit.

dont let that stroke ur ego too much burgey.

ENUF BLUE MOAR WHITE

[Yukari]

Btw, how long does the average EpicMafia game last? Thinking of making an account there.

[ShadowExile]

As I said, about 10 minutes. But the gameplay is totally different from Forum Mafia. If there is a Jeraziah (Bodyguard) plus a Watcher/Tracker (both similar to Scout), then someone who has a power role other than that would generally claim straight away and ask the other power roles to claim to him in whisper and there would be counter-claims and this would all be first round and yeah there's a lot of different stuff from how you'd play on a forum and it's a lot more rushed and a lot more dumb, in Forum Mafia it's more about reading through what people are writing and bullshitting and trolling.

But if you're into that it can definitely be fun.

[Yukari]

Oh, I thought u said a day lasts 10 minutes... If it's 10 minutes per game I'll probably give it a shot.

[ShadowExile]

Oh, I thought u said a day lasts 10 minutes... If it's 10 minutes per game I'll probably give it a shot.

On average. There are instances where there is only 1 clear and 2 suspicious, and the clear may have to go look back further in the game and try and suss out the most suspicious person. The game can go for longer than 10 minutes if the people want / require it to, but it generally moves quite fast.

[Yukari]

Interesting. I'll look into epicmafia, not very time consuming and if it's anything like this, I'll probably enjoy it.

[Zwai]

Another strong piece of evidence for me being Legion is, as I've mentioned, that I joined after daytime started. I cannot have talked with my bloodthirsty Hellbourne buddies, so why would I propose all these risky gambits? Sure, Michael Burge loves the spotlight you might say, or maybe I'm thinking you'll ask this and have an even more insidious plan.

Feel free to think that, but without talking to my bloodbuddies(:bloo:) is this really going to go anywhere? All my gambits try to establish that I am Legion to you all and use that; if I'm a Hellbourne trying to deceive you, it's really hard to do much with my current setup without more organization.



You currently have 2 votes (providing that voting for Michael Burge actually counts as a self vote). If both those votes are legion HB can wagon onto you and kill you. However, if one of those votes is HB then you will be safe. The problem is, you state that if you do not die then that vote HAS to be rogers and therefore he is proven guilty.


Keep in mind there are actually 4 cases:

I am Legion and Roger is Legion: The Legion team loses because Hellbourne can bandwagon on. The longer the current votes go on without me dying, the less likely this case is.
I am Legion and Roger is Hellbourne: If no Legion players try to lynch me, I'm safe. The longer the game goes on without me dying, the more evidence there is for this case.
I am Hellbourne and Roger is Legion: I vote for myself and encourage my fellow werewolves who I have not yet talked to, to vote me out of the game. What exactly do I gain by doing this? I risk myself, and while Hellbourne supposedly "clears their name", would you really claim that's worth losing a member?
I am Hellbourne and Roger is Hellbourne: What a weird gambit to play if this is the true case. I would know Roger is my ally, and I guess the benefit would be to split the votes between me and Roger; but why the weird gambit for no apparent benefit?

My goal is to get you to believe the second case. Specifically, if I don't die for a good amount of time, then the second case is most likely.



Your second outcome technically can't happen in the setup. You claim that if your vote is HB then 3 specific players should vote you and we should hammer you, which apparently 'clears' everyone on the wagon.

However you know that the first outcome can only happen as one of the 2 votes against you is HB, so you won't get mass hammered by HB and die. As stated above you claim that if this happens then Roger is proven guilty and we should lynch him. However, you don't state the fact that you won't die because the HB vote is yours. As HB already have a vote on you (your own vote) you only have 4 votes left to make a lynch out of the 5 needed. So apart from the fact that HB wouldn't hammer you anyway, they couldn't even if they wanted to. It proves your guilt more than it does Roger's.


You're correct in stating that if we only consider Roger and me; then the "MichaelBurge is Hellbourne" case doesn't really work. To do this case, I brought up Roger's bloodbuddies ShadowExile and YawningAngel. I noticed how often they agree with each other, and assert in my claim that they are on the same team(whatever that team is).

Now, I may use up a Hellbourne vote, but if Roger's buddies back him up as Legion, then my Hellbourne friends can vote me out. They might even go along with it, because I haven't talked with the rest of Hellbourne yet.

Thanks for questioning this case: It takes alot of thinking to reason through my gambits, but I am sure of my results.



Also, the same is the case for your original gambit on Roger. You claim that if you get one more 'legion' vote and he doesn't get mass hammered by HB then he is proven guilty, but if your vote is HB then he HB can't mass hammer him so it doesn't prove ****. Besides, your trying to convince Andrex, one of the most obv scum players in this game to be your 'second legion vote'. That would make 2 HB votes on Roger and there would be no way he could get mass hammered.

Your logic is so, I dunno, flawed, 'retarded' even. You seem to think this game is black and white when in fact its everything in between.

The issue here is not with statements of the form "X is true" but rather "Y knows that X is true" or "Z knows that (Y knows that (X is true))". This is why you feel so uncomfortable with my gambit: I'm treating them like classical "X is true" statements, but you're wondering where all the "Y knows that..." statements fit in.

Recall that the full strength of my gambit required me to establish myself as Legion to the rest of you(actually, you could be 66% sure I was Hellbourne and still should vote for Roger). This shows I have committed a certain fallacy in my original post without realizing it: I believe that Andrex is Legion, but in order for my gambit to go through, I not only need 2 Legion players: I need to establish 2 players as Legion and have them both vote Roger. Then my gambit goes through with full force.

Assuming I have convinced you that I am Legion, then Andrex would not be sufficient to follow up and force a vote on Roger. I'm glad you caught that, rather than someone on the Hellbourne team.

Can we recover my first gambit? I need a highly respected Legion player to back me up, and I need you guys to believe I'm Legion. Otherwise, your criticism is valid and I can't use Andrex.

However, even if I can't force a vote on Roger, this gambit helps establish his guilt and my innocence. That's really what I was aiming for, because if I do that then the rest of you will back me up anyways. I was wrong in claiming my first gambit applied here, but I suppose that was wishful thinking(because I *really* wanted it to apply).


I'd like to mention firstly that perhaps Burge's gambit would work in a game of epicmafia, where the maximum game duration is about 10 minutes and all the players are all awake and forced to play at the same time. In that case, the Hellbourne or Mafia would be able to instantly do a bandwagon quickly if it was the last round and win the game. In a game such as this, when it required 5 Hellbourne votes to kill Roger and thus (probably) win the game, and everyone is in a different timezone and viewing this thread at a different time, it is impossible for the Hellbourne to certainly bandwagon fast enough to actually cause Roger's death in a way that wouldn't make them all IMMEDIATELY obvious to the Legion observing the game.

I doubt the Hellbourne would risk exposing all 5 of their ranks when they are so close to winning this game.

A very good observation; it was floating in my mind but I hadn't explicitly written it down and considered it. An unorganized Hellbourne team could pass up a victory because they couldn't all vote within a small time period, falsely establishing their innocence.

Recall that my gambit 2 is designed to establish my innocence the longer it goes on IF Hellbourne is unable to collectively lynch me. I'm willing to let this state go on for a few days in order for the evidence that Hellbourne is not able to lynch me to stack up.

You don't think that Hellbourne could say "Hey everyone, let's establish a specific time every day where we all log on for 5 minutes and decide votes in X manner." I would certainly do this; though it's true I don't know that Hellbourne is that organized.

I actually depend on my opponents being rational(almost in an economic sense); if you had a lazy member my argument would have a hole in it. But this makes their team weaker in other ways regardless, so I wouldn't think Legion would have so much trouble.

Oh, and they shouldn't care about exposing their ranks if they can nab a Legion player. If they kill a Legion player, they can shout their names at the top of every mountain and you still lose. Sure, if they pass up a victory, it establishes their innocence and they can use it to trick you, but why not just win if it's handed to you? I'll grant that your time argument makes it somewhat of a risk, but I mitigated it with my counterargument; so I claim the "risk of exposing 5 players" isn't so important compared to the many other risks in this game.


dont let that stroke ur ego too much burgey.

I'll stroke your ego if you stroke mine.


You have come in with a pretty big bang and I remember how much Burge loved to troll. Whilst I did enjoy one of your trolls every now and then, I can only believe you are trying to troll again for the ultimate Hellbourne win, which makes me suspect you greatly.

Vote: Zwei


Roger brought up the same argument. Roger votes the same way you do. You're helping to establish the claim in my gambit, so I thank you. I'll grant that the claim in my gambit isn't enough by itself, however.

In any case, let the gambit decide who is guilty!

As somewhat of an aside, while people certainly view me as a master troll and it would be fitting that I would do well in a deceptive game like this, my usual counterargument is that I don't really care about "carrying" a winning team to victory.

The many voices that comment on the size of my ego confirm that I am much more interested in single-handedly leading the Legion team to victory. Don't take this as a proper argument in the style of my gambits; but surely it counts for something?


Though my suspicion for Andrex still remains, that is something that should wait for when we finally get back ahead of the Hellbourne.

Perhaps when Yukari, known Legion MVP, main organizing force so far, stated on Page 37 near the end,


Lastly, before I end this post, I will ask the person who's vote will end the day to NOT VOTE until I make a post towards the end of the day.

told you not to kick Chuth, you should've listened? Maybe you didn't notice in in the pages of text to read, or maybe you just forgot. I'm not saying this is a proper argument against you in the style of my gambits, but it's certainly evidence of some kind(especially since Chuth was innocent). :poll:

I'll take any little bit I can get to establish Roger's guilt, and by my claim in gambit 2, establishing your guilt is equivalent to establishing Roger's guilt.

[YawningAngel]

You realise there's no rule saying HB can't PM each other during the day?

[YawningAngel]

What I mean by this is that you could well have organised it. In any case, I have no intention of voting you, because I believe you're Legion. You're a misguided Legion, but you're Legion, and we can't afford to lose you at this stage. Killing a suspected Hellbourne serves our purposes, viz either Andrex or one of the people who bumped off Chuth.

[Zwai]

You realise there's no rule saying HB can't PM each other during the day?

I'm trying to catch up on all the rules and history of this thread as quickly as I can. >.<

I skimmed them and it looks like you may be right. In that case, I posted within 20 minutes of Vahn announcing my entry into the game. I assume PM'ing players before he announces it is grounds for disqualification, so I wouldn't have had that much time to write up my first post(and color it, etc.) and talk to the HB team.

A weaker argument, I agree; but it's the best way to recover my position. Feel free to point out any other mistakes I've made; I've tried to be as explicit with my reasoning as possible to make it easy for you to catch these and strengthen my argument.

I'll also note that I haven't substantially changed my position since I started posting(besides Bobble suggesting I pull my vote and returning with a gambit) , though I'm not sure if that constitutes evidence for me.

(*edit responding to YA*)

Killing a suspected Hellbourne serves our purposes, viz either Andrex or one of the people who bumped off Chuth.

Since ShadowExile helped bump off Chuth, would you be willing to kick him? I believe you and Shadow are in cahoots together(along with Roger), so it'd be interesting to hear your response.

[Vahn]

You realise there's no rule saying HB can't PM each other during the day?

There is now, I have implied previously on the hellbourne chat that they can't PM during the day so I'm assuming that they haven't been doing so.

[Zwai]

There is now, I have implied previously on the hellbourne chat that they can't PM during the day so I'm assuming that they haven't been doing so.

Since there was no rule, this is probably a weak argument, but can we disqualify anyone on Hellbourne who sent a PM? I assume you can check that, as a moderator?

[YawningAngel]

Shadow is, afaik, new, and more likely naive than malicious. That said, I've believed that of most people who haven't mindlessly prosecuted unlikely lynches. I would be willing to consider voting him off, but I'd require pretty good reason to do so.

[YawningAngel]

And no he can't check it.

[Vahn]

Since there was no rule, this is probably a weak argument, but can we disqualify anyone on Hellbourne who sent a PM? I assume you can check that, as a moderator?

No I can't check, I don't have access to do that.

Wish I did have the ability to do that, would be very interesting.

[Zwai]

Shadow is, afaik, new, and more likely naive than malicious. That said, I've believed that of most people who haven't mindlessly prosecuted unlikely lynches. I would be willing to consider voting him off, but I'd require pretty good reason to do so.

Please refer to posts 891-896 where Shadow makes remarks about other mafia games. The best one is


As I said, about 10 minutes. But the gameplay is totally different from Forum Mafia. If there is a Jeraziah (Bodyguard) plus a Watcher/Tracker (both similar to Scout), then someone who has a power role other than that would generally claim straight away and ask the other power roles to claim to him in whisper and there would be counter-claims and this would all be first round and yeah there's a lot of different stuff from how you'd play on a forum and it's a lot more rushed and a lot more dumb, in Forum Mafia it's more about reading through what people are writing and bullshitting and trolling.

But if you're into that it can definitely be fun.

Naive and innocent ShadowExile for sure. We certainly can't lynch your bloodbuddie.
:bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo: :bloo:

[YawningAngel]

o_O I thought he was new. This is disconcerting.

[Yukari]

:bloo: So Hungry.

[YawningAngel]

I tell you what Burge, why don't we lynch me? I'm sure you're leading up to it, in any case. If, as you claim, I'm irretrievably complicit with RogerDodger, then lynching me is just as logical as lynching him.

YawningAngel

[Zwai]

Further, my respected yet bloodthirsty(:bloo:) Hellbourne enemy, why do you claim we should lynch Andrex then if your reason for defending ShadowExile is that Shadow is new? There was a long discussion on how new Andrex was, and Andrex himself stated(here) (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=13194174#post13194174) that he was new.

Unless you claim that Andrex was lying about how new he was(which goes against his established naive honest incompetent character throughout his entire forum history), you must agree that ShadowExile is equally lynchable as Andrex if being new is a factor.

Your house is falling apart, Yawning. Your triumvirate of terror will come to an end.


I tell you what Burge, why don't we lynch me? I'm sure you're leading up to it, in any case. If, as you claim, I'm irretrievably complicit with RogerDodger, then lynching me is just as logical as lynching him.

I would be happy to take you up on your offer. Do I have anyone willing to back me up? I'll switch my vote.

Vote: YawningAngel

Recall that I bet my honor on RogerDodger. I am convinced that you are with him, and will bet my honor and the reputation of Michael Burge on this.

You can come on my Minecraft server in front of my worshipers and shout from the mountain tops "Michael Burge is no true god!","Michael Burge is no true god!", if I am wrong.

[Yukari]

What a turn of events!

[Rawn]

I'm so glad Burge took over Ryoki instead of me, haha. This is highly entertaining.

[YawningAngel]

And now we reach the deciding point. This will be my first truly extended post. It may well, if Burge has his way, be my last. By voting himself, Burge urged Legion to decide for themselves his allegiance. Wisely, none of us chose to vote for him, lest the Hellbourne take advantage. Now we find ourselves in a similar situation: I have voted myself to draw forth one key fact: whether Zwai is to be trusted. Hitherto, I did not choose to vote Zwai because I was uncertain of whether he was Hellbourne: now I have no hesitation in doing so. Allow me to present you with a Burgian dichotomy:

1. We are both Hellbourne. This is, frankly, incredible. The Hellbourne are incredibly dominant, and a bizarre throw of the dice such as this one would gain us nothing. With that in mind, I have no hesitation in discounting this option.

2. We are both Legion, and this argument will destroy our team. Consider, however, why it has been provoked. We are forced to choose who to believe, and Burge would have it be him. However, we are unable to decide if he be heroic leader or vile conspirator. The only way to do so is to examine his motives. If Zwai were Legion, why would he do this? He will tell you it is because we are at a turning point: we must kill or be killed. Certainly, for Michael Burge to believe himself our messiah is characteristic. However, why would he be so forceful? He would at the very least require good reason before putting his name to a lynch, and he has none: merely smoke and mirrors. Indeed, he has told you himself that you must follow him. Why? Simple. He does not want you to consider what he says: he just wants to lynch someone, anyone. Why?

3. MichaelBurge is Hellbourne and RogerDodger is simply the easiest target. Roger's playstyle has changed for the obvious reason: he has no good reason to try to split the town. With first Yukari and now Zwai making claims to leadership, his voice would only be to our detriment. Howver, moreover, he claims we are in collusion. What evidence does he have for this? Precious little, it is simply that "collusion" is scummy and makes us desirable targets. More damning, however, is his opportunism. When I voted myself, he immediately switched. Why? Because I have suddenly become an easy target. As Hellbourne, he can safely vote himself, knowing he will not be opportunistically lynched. However, knowing as he does that I am Legion, he can safely try to organise a concerted lynch on me using my own vote to prop it up. Furthermore, he need not worry about how incriminating my lynching will seem with hindsight, because there will be no hindsight: we will be lost. Consider my own reasons for not voting him when I believed him to be acting scummily: I know I may be wrong, and if I am, I condemn us to a loss. He however had no hesitation: either he knows the outcome (i.e. he is Hellbourne) or he doesn't care about the fact he's sacrificing a Legion player (which is both extremely scummy and highly detrimental to our cause). I therefore urge him, if he is truly our friend, to reconsider, or at the very least to find some actual evidence.

Unvote YawningAngel

[ShadowExile]

Firstly, Andrex was only suspected because of how often he used the words, "I am new as an excuse." You can see that many of us, including myself quite strongly, felt this was overly emphasized and that this was a cover-up (as being new is no testimony to being Legion, and I don't know why YawningAngel assumed I was new and that that was an excuse for me voting off Chuth), and that's why we were voting him. I still suspect him even now, and I have reiterated that many times.

But as for me voting Chuth? About me and 6 others did it. I didn't see Yukari edit his post so I didn't see the part where he said don't actually let Chuth die. If that was the case, I would have allowed him to make the argument he wanted. I only VOTED Chuth anyway because Yukari was the only clear we had, and in an effort to not prolong the day for another 10 pages (as has been custom with the last few days), I grudgingly voted Chuth off. Keep in mind, I have no idea of any of the soft claims that went on early game, I've not read pages from 20 and earlier on.

So yeah, even if that is a weak excuse, that is my excuse for voting Chuth. Do I regret it? **** yes I do. Because instead of having to listen to Burge try and convince us all of his Legion allegiance through confusing and sometimes nonsensical means that when I have examined thoroughly, actually can apply to many people (and thus is a hunch of his), or has many holes in it and could be used for our loss, I'd instead be listening to our clear Yukari, who would most certainly still be alive (because I doubt the Hellbourne would risk voting him off with Jeraziah still alive and possibly WIFOM'ing between Roger and Yukari),and that would be quite helpful in sorting out what is what in this game. A DEFINITIVE clear to lead a lynch is always a useful thing, as you know they have no secretive malicious intentions, and that is why I followed the vote for Chuth, in summary.

So no, I'm not new, I have a fair bit of experience in Epic Mafia and I have played one or two games in this, I am certainly not a master of the game and if I was, I would have probably seen through the Hellbourne already.

Now in response to this line of reasoning:
Since ShadowExile helped bump off Chuth, would you be willing to kick him? I believe you and Shadow are in cahoots together(along with Roger), so it'd be interesting to hear your response. Sure, start a bandwagon on me. I'm sure your very selective reasoning will be the definitive reason as to why I should be lynched. See, among the 7 who voted for Chuth, (sure 2 or 3 weren't intending to actually go through with it, [or so they say, remember they could be Hellbourne too, oh circular reasoning how you make me angst], but I assumed the past 20 pages had some sort of reason for Yukari being determined the whole way through to finally kill him), these people could also be considered for lynching?

To make my point a little stronger, here's an example.

Vote: Bobble.

He finishes the lynch knowing full well Chuth would die as a result, and so earns my finger of suspicion. I highly suggest following my bandit against Bobble as I have a 12% chance of success here, and you guys would do quite well to follow me, as I have a 73% chance of being Legion, ((numberofplayers - hellbourneplayers)/numberofplayers)*100

As you can see, my argument is fairly pointless. Hellbourne could be either quick or slow to start a bandwagon on a target that to them is obviously Legion. And perhaps not even all Hellbourne voted, as they would know whether Legion people were voting or not. It could be that only 2 or less Hellbourne voted for Chuth, we cannot know. It is like when I play Sudoku on the train and my friend tries to randomly place an 8 when it can be either one spot or the other, and I refuse to place it because it is only a 50% chance and I do not want to fail the Sudoku.

My example is the same here, I do not want to risk the chance, (insert mathematical calculations here proving what the chance is), of Burge being Hellbourne, or Burge being wrong, entirely.

[ShadowExile]

Oh, and I revoke my vote on Bobble. I only did it to prove a point. I do not know whether to actually suspect him or not. And Burge does seem to be trying a little TOO hard to prove he isn't Hellbourne. Though in other games of epicmafia, there are people who I have said the same about and they have proven to be Mafia. So, I will remain undecided for now, and I will begin to review posts that I see in near silence, (as in I shall post very little after this).

[ElementUser]

Who ARE you Zwai, and how do you know enough about me to know that I was RwR's mascot?!

I'm not his little brother. I just did everything he asked...

He's a stalker.

:madm:

No this does not necessarily mean I'm referring to his role in the Werewolf game

[ShadowExile]

He's a stalker.

:madm:

No this does not necessarily mean I'm referring to his role in the Werewolf game

Ninjaedit is ninja.

[Yukari]

I didn't see Yukari edit his post so I didn't see the part where he said don't actually let Chuth die.

Calling bullshit right now. I did not edit that post, and everyone can see that. Vahn gave clearance to make this post.

[ElementUser]

Oh speaking about edits:


I didn't see the part where he said don't actually let Chuth die.

Post #915, Yukari never actually edited his post (lack of the "edited by..." and doesn't show up in the thread tools history), so that line is just blasphemy.

Also this post is not in light-blue because it is a serious post.

GG Shadow, Yukari is correct in the post above me!

[Yukari]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=13297903&postcount=738 No editing recorded. But it seems like ele beat me to it. <3

[Octavia]

He's a stalker.

:madm:

No this does not necessarily mean I'm referring to his role in the Werewolf gamehttp://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/avatars/s2avatar.gif

Michael Burge throws his name around like a 2 dollar hooker. One would think with such a high prestige he would caress the ground he treads on more carefully. The sentiment of comparing himself to a god is apt, as his accomplishments are that of a god's - illusions.

[Zwai]

Ohoho, trying to slither away from my grasp, little one? :slit:


And now we reach the deciding point. This will be my first truly extended post. It may well, if Burge has his way, be my last. By voting himself, Burge urged Legion to decide for themselves his allegiance. Wisely, none of us chose to vote for him, lest the Hellbourne take advantage. Now we find ourselves in a similar situation: I have voted myself to draw forth one key fact: whether Zwai is to be trusted. Hitherto, I did not choose to vote Zwai because I was uncertain of whether he was Hellbourne: now I have no hesitation in doing so. Allow me to present you with a Burgian dichotomy:

1. We are both Hellbourne. This is, frankly, incredible. The Hellbourne are incredibly dominant, and a bizarre throw of the dice such as this one would gain us nothing. With that in mind, I have no hesitation in discounting this option.

2. We are both Legion, and this argument will destroy our team. Consider, however, why it has been provoked. We are forced to choose who to believe, and Burge would have it be him. However, we are unable to decide if he be heroic leader or vile conspirator. The only way to do so is to examine his motives. If Zwai were Legion, why would he do this? He will tell you it is because we are at a turning point: we must kill or be killed. Certainly, for Michael Burge to believe himself our messiah is characteristic. However, why would he be so forceful? He would at the very least require good reason before putting his name to a lynch, and he has none: merely smoke and mirrors. Indeed, he has told you himself that you must follow him. Why? Simple. He does not want you to consider what he says: he just wants to lynch someone, anyone. Why?

3. MichaelBurge is Hellbourne and RogerDodger is simply the easiest target. Roger's playstyle has changed for the obvious reason: he has no good reason to try to split the town. With first Yukari and now Zwai making claims to leadership, his voice would only be to our detriment. Howver, moreover, he claims we are in collusion. What evidence does he have for this? Precious little, it is simply that "collusion" is scummy and makes us desirable targets. More damning, however, is his opportunism. When I voted myself, he immediately switched. Why? Because I have suddenly become an easy target. As Hellbourne, he can safely vote himself, knowing he will not be opportunistically lynched. However, knowing as he does that I am Legion, he can safely try to organise a concerted lynch on me using my own vote to prop it up. Furthermore, he need not worry about how incriminating my lynching will seem with hindsight, because there will be no hindsight: we will be lost. Consider my own reasons for not voting him when I believed him to be acting scummily: I know I may be wrong, and if I am, I condemn us to a loss. He however had no hesitation: either he knows the outcome (i.e. he is Hellbourne) or he doesn't care about the fact he's sacrificing a Legion player (which is both extremely scummy and highly detrimental to our cause). I therefore urge him, if he is truly our friend, to reconsider, or at the very least to find some actual evidence.

Unvote YawningAngel

An interesting choice to choose my argument style. Trying to turn the Master's own work on himself:

1.) I agree with you in discarding this case. It is false that we are both Hellbourne.

2.) You made an even more primitive version of a fallacy I made in an argument. "Michael is Legion, therefore everybody knows he is Legion" You can split this into cases and work logically, but you cannot deduce that everyone else is on the same case.

"Why would Michael Burge attack a fellow Legion" implies "Michael Burge knows YA is Legion." This would be true in your case 3, but not in case 2.

I've given far more arguments than any of you in a similar time period. I've even made mistakes trying to catch up on rules and history(and even logic), and admit them. I make everything quite explicit in my posts, and while some like Javu take a bit of time to digest it, you certainly can't argue that I'm not giving "good reason."(or at the very least, alot of bad reasons)

3.) My primary assertion is that (YawningAngel, NomesWisdom, ShadowExile) are a team. Of those, I think that NomesWisdom was the strongest choice. As long as you're giving me free votes, why not switch to you?

If only you hadn't cancelled your vote, we could've gathered more evidence.



Firstly, Andrex was only suspected because of how often he used the words, "I am new as an excuse." You can see that many of us, including myself quite strongly, felt this was overly emphasized and that this was a cover-up (as being new is no testimony to being Legion, and I don't know why YawningAngel assumed I was new and that that was an excuse for me voting off Chuth), and that's why we were voting him. I still suspect him even now, and I have reiterated that many times.

But as for me voting Chuth? About me and 6 others did it. I didn't see Yukari edit his post so I didn't see the part where he said don't actually let Chuth die. If that was the case, I would have allowed him to make the argument he wanted. I only VOTED Chuth anyway because Yukari was the only clear we had, and in an effort to not prolong the day for another 10 pages (as has been custom with the last few days), I grudgingly voted Chuth off. Keep in mind, I have no idea of any of the soft claims that went on early game, I've not read pages from 20 and earlier on.

So yeah, even if that is a weak excuse, that is my excuse for voting Chuth. Do I regret it? **** yes I do. Because instead of having to listen to Burge try and convince us all of his Legion allegiance through confusing and sometimes nonsensical means that when I have examined thoroughly, actually can apply to many people (and thus is a hunch of his), or has many holes in it and could be used for our loss, I'd instead be listening to our clear Yukari, who would most certainly still be alive (because I doubt the Hellbourne would risk voting him off with Jeraziah still alive and possibly WIFOM'ing between Roger and Yukari),and that would be quite helpful in sorting out what is what in this game. A DEFINITIVE clear to lead a lynch is always a useful thing, as you know they have no secretive malicious intentions, and that is why I followed the vote for Chuth, in summary.

So no, I'm not new, I have a fair bit of experience in Epic Mafia and I have played one or two games in this, I am certainly not a master of the game and if I was, I would have probably seen through the Hellbourne already.

Now in response to this line of reasoning: Sure, start a bandwagon on me. I'm sure your very selective reasoning will be the definitive reason as to why I should be lynched. See, among the 7 who voted for Chuth, (sure 2 or 3 weren't intending to actually go through with it, [or so they say, remember they could be Hellbourne too, oh circular reasoning how you make me angst], but I assumed the past 20 pages had some sort of reason for Yukari being determined the whole way through to finally kill him), these people could also be considered for lynching?

To make my point a little stronger, here's an example.

Vote: Bobble.

He finishes the lynch knowing full well Chuth would die as a result, and so earns my finger of suspicion. I highly suggest following my bandit against Bobble as I have a 12% chance of success here, and you guys would do quite well to follow me, as I have a 73% chance of being Legion, ((numberofplayers - hellbourneplayers)/numberofplayers)*100

As you can see, my argument is fairly pointless. Hellbourne could be either quick or slow to start a bandwagon on a target that to them is obviously Legion. And perhaps not even all Hellbourne voted, as they would know whether Legion people were voting or not. It could be that only 2 or less Hellbourne voted for Chuth, we cannot know. It is like when I play Sudoku on the train and my friend tries to randomly place an 8 when it can be either one spot or the other, and I refuse to place it because it is only a 50% chance and I do not want to fail the Sudoku.

My example is the same here, I do not want to risk the chance, (insert mathematical calculations here proving what the chance is), of Burge being Hellbourne, or Burge being wrong, entirely.


This next quote isn't a proper argument(in the style of my gambits), but is deliciously ironic nonetheless:


Omg ffs dude, it was just 2:59 and even though it's now 2:02 (time went back an hour), stop ****ing writing so much, quoting so much and highlighting so much. I really don't have the energy to read so much about your gambit. There are 5 hellbourne, sure one of them could be NomesWisdom but how about trying to crack down on all 5 rather than focus firing one who actually seems to be legitimately Legion in my personal perspective.

Such a long post you've written here, in comparison to your other ones. It seems the moment I call out YawningAngel, you guys get together and start posting a synchronized response. I don't think you intended to post exactly at the same minute, but it does indicate you used your private communication channels which YA explicitly pointed out HB "could be" using.



http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/images/avatars/s2avatar.gif

Michael Burge throws his name around like a 2 dollar hooker. One would think with such a high prestige he would caress the ground he treads on more carefully. The sentiment of comparing himself to a god is apt, as his accomplishments are that of a god's - illusions.


NomesWisdom completes the "triumvirate of terror" responding at about the same time. You guys and your private Hellbourne communication channels will certainly outsmart me with your organized thinking. How can Michael Burge - seemingly a mere mortal - defeat these big-names? I'm not even responding to Shadow and Nomes; you guys incriminated yourselves quite handily.

Legion players: It's time for a lynching tonight. If you guys have preferences between them, I'm open. I think we should keep with Roger for consistency, though.

Vote: NomesWisdom

(*edit*) Changed "RogerDodger" to "NomesWisdom" here; sorry if there was any confusion.

[ShadowExile]

Calling bullshit right now. I did not edit that post, and everyone can see that. Vahn gave clearance to make this post.



Oh speaking about edits:



Post #915, Yukari never actually edited his post (lack of the "edited by..." and doesn't show up in the thread tools history), so that line is just blasphemy.

Also this post is not in light-blue because it is a serious post.

GG Shadow, Yukari is correct in the post above me!

Hmmm, to be honest I only skim posts. I don't have the patience to read walls of text. I didn't see the part where it said "don't actually kill Chuth," but apparently Bobble and some others didn't either. I did however read someone say that you edited it and that they had seen the original post (after you had died) saying not to kill him. That is what I was basing that argument on.

I don't get why that is good game, firstly I didn't put the hammer vote in that actually killed Chuth, and secondly I honestly didn't know Yukari was attempting to get votes on Chuth and then post something that would clarify something.

[YawningAngel]

No Burge. It's not you attacking a fellow Legion, it's you demanding people back you in doing so lest we all fail. You should at least provide consideration first. As for collusion, it's hardly collusion to defend ourselves when we are all attacked. I'd even argue that this is probably the only evidence of actual collusion. One more point: If I were actually Hellbourne, wouldn't I have lynched Chuth?

Incidentally, Vahn has forbidden the use of private channels for HB communication as per his earlier post.

[Yukari]

Hmmm, to be honest I only skim posts. I don't have the patience to read walls of text. I didn't see the part where it said "don't actually kill Chuth," but apparently Bobble and some others didn't either. I did however read someone say that you edited it and that they had seen the original post (after you had died) saying not to kill him. That is what I was basing that argument on.

I don't get why that is good game, firstly I didn't put the hammer vote in that actually killed Chuth, and secondly I honestly didn't know Yukari was attempting to get votes on Chuth and then post something that would clarify something.

Ah, you are completely right. It was Bobbles that silenced me, not you. I accidentally skimmed over Bobble's short post.

[Octavia]

NomesWisdom completes the "triumvirate of terror" responding at about the same time. You guys and your private Hellbourne communication channels will certainly outsmart me with your organized thinking. How can Michael Burge - seemingly a mere mortal - defeat these big-names? I'm not even responding to Shadow and Nomes; you guys incriminated yourselves quite handily.

Legion players: It's time for a lynching tonight. If you guys have preferences between them, I'm open. I think we should keep with Roger for consistency, though.

Vote: NomesWisdom

(*edit*) Changed "RogerDodger" to "NomesWisdom" here; sorry if there was any confusion.

Actually I've just been busy winning a bo3 league match, maintaining ourselves as undefeated in CGi. I know it seems unreasonable to someone as unknowing and fake as yourself that one could win two games at once, but it's well within feasibility for those of us with true talent.

What did NaBT achieve again? I recall on your NaBT recruitment thread that all winnings would be commissioned to premier Nymphora drawings from professional artists; since that date no new works of art have been drawn on that topic. One could only conclude you attained nothing from your ventures. The only time you made a mark on the world of Newerth is when you appeared on honcast to feed with Glacius; fitting, as you're so adapt at feeding bullshit.

Coincidence?

[ShadowExile]

Ohoho, trying to slither away from my grasp, little one? :slit:



An interesting choice to choose my argument style. Trying to turn the Master's own work on himself:

1.) I agree with you in discarding this case. It is false that we are both Hellbourne.

2.) You made an even more primitive version of a fallacy I made in an argument. "Michael is Legion, therefore everybody knows he is Legion" You can split this into cases and work logically, but you cannot deduce that everyone else is on the same case.

"Why would Michael Burge attack a fellow Legion" implies "Michael Burge knows YA is Legion." This would be true in your case 3, but not in case 2.

I've given far more arguments than any of you in a similar time period. I've even made mistakes trying to catch up on rules and history(and even logic), and admit them. I make everything quite explicit in my posts, and while some like Javu take a bit of time to digest it, you certainly can't argue that I'm not giving "good reason."(or at the very least, alot of bad reasons)

3.) My primary assertion is that (YawningAngel, NomesWisdom, ShadowExile) are a team. Of those, I think that NomesWisdom was the strongest choice. As long as you're giving me free votes, why not switch to you?

If only you hadn't cancelled your vote, we could've gathered more evidence.



This next quote isn't a proper argument(in the style of my gambits), but is deliciously ironic nonetheless:



Such a long post you've written here, in comparison to your other ones. It seems the moment I call out YawningAngel, you guys get together and start posting a synchronized response. I don't think you intended to post exactly at the same minute, but it does indicate you used your private communication channels which YA explicitly pointed out HB "could be" using.


NomesWisdom completes the "triumvirate of terror" responding at about the same time. You guys and your private Hellbourne communication channels will certainly outsmart me with your organized thinking. How can Michael Burge - seemingly a mere mortal - defeat these big-names? I'm not even responding to Shadow and Nomes; you guys incriminated yourselves quite handily.

Legion players: It's time for a lynching tonight. If you guys have preferences between them, I'm open. I think we should keep with Roger for consistency, though.

Vote: NomesWisdom

(*edit*) Changed "RogerDodger" to "NomesWisdom" here; sorry if there was any confusion.

Would you like me to explain the difference between the posts that appear "ironic" to you?

One was posted at what felt like 3am, after a long night at work and then watching 2 movies with my girlfriend. I felt tired, and you wouldn't stop posting about the gambit.

Secondly, you keep on going on about it, but instead I did not work as long tonight, did not watch 2 movies, and it is only 12am. I do not often give long posts, but that does not mean I exclude the possibility of doing so. And in that post, I would say I barely defended YawningAngel more so than my own credibility, (to some extent, as I also mentioned that I am about as credible as you chance wise), and also, argued why I didn't believe you were credible either.

[Yukari]

So why weren't you guys THIS ACTIVE WHILE I WAS ALIVE HUN?!

[ShadowExile]

So why weren't you guys THIS ACTIVE WHILE I WAS ALIVE HUN?!

Because if there is one thing that Michael's gambit has done, it has made more posts and more ability to argue things in this thread. It has also made me want to search back and look for scummy posts from Ryoki, to help prove why Michael is mostly likely a Hellbourne. His arguments are very counter-intuitive and I feel like it would be the ultimate win for a troll to be able to win whilst running everyone around not knowing what they are doing and winning through the linguistic use of nonsensical gibberish.

[Lucian01]

Oh boy, Shadow really got schooled by those spectators.

...

Wait what?

[Yukari]

Note to self. Attack ShadowExile for fun next time. It brings great entertainment and possibly information to the board.

[ShadowExile]

Note to self. Attack ShadowExile for fun next time. It brings great entertainment and possibly information to the board.

Sure, I'm bored too. The second reason that I'm active is that I have run out of Initial D anime to watch, my mates are offline so I can't play games with them and I am bored out of my ****ing mind. Someone post something strategical quick!

[Yukari]

Sure, I'm bored too. The second reason that I'm active is that I have run out of Initial D anime to watch, my mates are offline so I can't play games with them and I am bored out of my ****ing mind. Someone post something strategical quick!

You could've just asked me for a recommended list of anime. Ele has been enjoying my recommendations for months. Ain't that right ele?

[ShadowExile]

You could've just asked me for a recommended list of anime. Ele has been enjoying my recommendations for months. Ain't that right ele?

I am considering starting Tokyo Majin, but after that I will be pretty clueless on things to watch.

[Octavia]

You could've just asked me for a recommended list of anime. Ele has been enjoying my recommendations for months. Ain't that right ele?Vahn used up all the bandwidth downloading DBZ a few moths back, so please don't give him any ideas.

[Ryper7]

So why weren't you guys THIS ACTIVE WHILE I WAS ALIVE HUN?!
couldnt agree more.

[ShadowExile]

Somebody get Burge back in here.

[Yukari]

Send me a PM regarding the genre and the mood that you are in (serious or non-serious) and I'll give you a few recommendations

[Yukari]

Vahn used up all the bandwidth downloading DBZ a few moths back, so please don't give him any ideas.
I'm sorry for the double post but... LOL!

[Yukari]

Somebody get Burge back in here.


TRIPLE KILL!

He hasn't went to sleep yet, so I think he's still thinking.

[Lucian01]

Sure, I'm bored too. The second reason that I'm active is that I have run out of Initial D anime to watch, my mates are offline so I can't play games with them and I am bored out of my ****ing mind. Someone post something strategical quick!

We can play some KF if you like but I figured you were too busy writing these big scary mafia posts! :TabletOfCommand:

Also I'm watching Ergo Proxy right now, tis' not bad. Although I'm certainly not an anime enthusiast.

[Vahn]

Vahn used up all the bandwidth downloading DBZ a few moths back, so please don't give him any ideas.

Apparently 20Mb/s is all our bandwidth when we easily get over 200Mb/s.

oh i also got dbgt was well.

[ShadowExile]

We can play some KF if you like but I figured you were too busy writing these big scary mafia posts! :TabletOfCommand:

Also I'm watching Ergo Proxy right now, tis' not bad. Although I'm certainly not an anime enthusiast.


How did you know I play KF? :O

EDIT: Guys new suspicion, Lucian is :madm:

[Yukari]

Ok, I'll post a little logic fallacy and see how long you are mind****ed for.

I put 20 dollars in a box, and so do you.
The box has 40 dollars in it, and we both know it.
I sell you the box for 30 dollars,
we both walk with 10 dollar profit.

Embarrassingly, I was mind****ed for over 20 seconds.

[ShadowExile]

Ok, I'll post a little logic fallacy and see how long you are mind****ed for.

I put 20 dollars in a box, and so do you.
The box has 40 dollars in it, and we both know it.
I sell you the box for 30 dollars,
we both walk with 10 dollar profit.

False. I will prove why.

Person 1 = -20 dollars
Person 2 = -20 dollars.

Person 1 = -20 dollars + 30 dollars
Person 2 = -20 dollars - 30 dollars, + 40 dollars.

Person 1 = 10 dollars profit
Person 2 = 10 dollars down.

EDIT: Was not mind****ed at all. :cool:

[Emiya]

Wow, that was a long read. This is interesting, to say the least.

Vote NomesWisdom




Ok, I'll post a little logic fallacy and see how long you are mind****ed for.

I put 20 dollars in a box, and so do you.
The box has 40 dollars in it, and we both know it.
I sell you the box for 30 dollars,
we both walk with 10 dollar profit.

Embarrassingly, I was mind****ed for over 20 seconds.
That one's easy.

[Zwai]

Ah, you are completely right. It was Bobbles that silenced me, not you. I accidentally skimmed over Bobble's short post.

Thank you for spotting that, Yukari. This completes the final piece in my puzzle:

Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Entire Hellbourne Team:


NomesWisdom :bloo:
After failing to attain any sort of real recognition with his Australian "competitive" team, he blames his failure on lag and decides he wants to win a forum competition to show how smart he is.

Unfortunately, Michael Burge - his Omok ranking above 2100 - catches him in the act. Roger is reduced to dirt on the edge of a forum scab(whatever that means) - his punishment for asserting himself on the same level as Michael Burge.

YawningAngel :valk:
Moderating a forum is tough work. Some people who can't handle the stress get fired. Some such people are named YawningAngel, and it's unclear how some such people managed to get back into their position.

Support Michael Burge in his fight against the "Triumvirate of Terror" today! "Some such people" should not be in a position of power as they are in this game on Hellbourne.

ShadowExile :scou:
ShadowExile would like to have you believe he was exiled into the shadows for possibly a noble cause - but he's just forum trash.

Help Michael Burge "take out the trash" today!

Bobble :bubb:
Bobbles isn't half-bad a player. I didn't suspect him until Yukari mentioned this.

Some may recall the old "Red Light Green Light" game we played on the forum months back. I single-handedly dominated the game by scheming to get people on my side and fixing the voting every game. Bobbles was my 2nd-in-command(and didn't realize I had 4 people who I would fix to be 2nd-place to satisfy our agreements).

Bobble is solid enough he wouldn't make Yukari's mistake. If he were Hellbourne, he would stay in the shadows, agreeing with the majority, and being inconspicuous. As innocent as he is, Bobble is trying to win and would not blindly agree like that if he were Legion. I have experience with him, and upon reading his posts I make a character judgment on him:

How he is is not how he normally is.

I hate to say it, Bobble, but I have to call you out. I may not have been considering you because of the 3 bigger targets this round, but you certainly passed my initial trickery.

If anyone doubts Bobble, why don't you take down the Triple Trainwreck of a Tragedy above, and then when you've seen how correct I am, you'll trust me on Bobble. He's a slithery one, for sure. :slit:

FlameStick :pyro:

I don't actually have a direct argument for FlameStick. I don't know the guy well at all, and didn't seem to stick out while I was reading the thread.

You guys were going for Andrex or Flamestick; my sleuth skills don't detect anything from Andrex, so the only other one you can reliably lynch is Flamestick.


Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Legion Team:

Javu played extremely defensive. Not only defensive, but was highly altruistic in that he only voted to lynch people he actually thought were Hellbourne. My memory may be sketchy on this, but he didn't appear to attack offensively like a Hellbourne would.

Andrex was worthless the entire game, and very timid. He'd probably be equally timid as Hellbourne, sure, but you can tell the difference. I don't think he's Legion.

Fetyukov is Legion. You guys think he's Legion, I think he's Legion. Is there anything to discuss? I'll post arguments if necessary, but it seems unanimous on this.

EvilDrake... hasn't posted once this entire thread? I'm sorry if I'm completely wrong on this, but I searched through the thread and didn't see anything. Vahn explicitly mentions Hellbourne should have active forum users(which is further evidence for my Hellbourne list), so I can't see this guy not being Legion.


In order to sign up for Werewolf you must be an active member on the forums and be prepared to not go inactive.

Nolifer: Last one on the list; I'm sure I need to say something about him, but he disrespected the Lord Burge one time and does not get to be talked about.

Too bad. :blac:

(If you actually want evidence that Nolifer is Legion, I'll present it)

Zwai: If you believe what everybody says about themself, all players are Legion! As a corollary, Zwai is Legion.


It was a good game guys. We had some good times; Roger had some bad times; but it was all fun in the end!

[Yukari]

Too easy? Here's a logic puzzle while we wait for another event.

There are three wise-men, and they want to know who amongst them is the wisest. They seek out the advice of a grandmaster. The grandmaster proposed a game. He took them into a dark room and painted 3 blue dots on their forehead, and turned on the lights.

Each of the wisemen could see the dot of the other wisemen, but not the one on them selves. The grandmaster than said "You could have either a red dot, or a blue dot. If you see at least one blue dot, raise you hand. The first person who figures out the color of the dot on their head would be the wisest of the three.

Over 3 minutes has passed, with all 3 people continuously raising their hands. Eventually, one amongst them claimed "I have a blue dot." Naturally he was right, the question is: How did he know?

[Yukari]

The ****?

[Zwai]

Interesting to note is that NomesWisdom, YawningAngel, and ShadowExile are all replying to the thread at the same time.

Maybe we'll get a deluge of text after this post before they realize I'm predicting them.

[Yukari]

I'm furiously mashing F5 right now.

[Lucian01]

EvilDrake... hasn't posted once this entire thread? I'm sorry if I'm completely wrong on this, but I searched through the thread and didn't see anything. Vahn explicitly mentions Hellbourne should have active forum users(which is further evidence for my Hellbourne list), so I can't see this guy not being Legion.


Must be some sort of search mistake because there's definitely a guy called EvilDrake playing and he's been involved in every lynch thus far.

[Emiya]

I feel like you're missing someone on that list there Burge.

[YawningAngel]

Thank you for spotting that, Yukari. This completes the final piece in my puzzle:

Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Entire Hellbourne Team:


NomesWisdom :bloo:
After failing to attain any sort of real recognition with his Australian "competitive" team, he blames his failure on lag and decides he wants to win a forum competition to show how smart he is.

Unfortunately, Michael Burge - his Omok ranking above 2100 - catches him in the act. Roger is reduced to dirt on the edge of a forum scab(whatever that means) - his punishment for asserting himself on the same level as Michael Burge.

YawningAngel :valk:
Moderating a forum is tough work. Some people who can't handle the stress get fired. Some such people are named YawningAngel, and it's unclear how some such people managed to get back into their position.

Support Michael Burge in his fight against the "Triumvirate of Terror" today! "Some such people" should not be in a position of power as they are in this game on Hellbourne.

ShadowExile :scou:
ShadowExile would like to have you believe he was exiled into the shadows for possibly a noble cause - but he's just forum trash.

Help Michael Burge "take out the trash" today!

Bobble :bubb:
Bobbles isn't half-bad a player. I didn't suspect him until Yukari mentioned this.

Some may recall the old "Red Light Green Light" game we played on the forum months back. I single-handedly dominated the game by scheming to get people on my side and fixing the voting every game. Bobbles was my 2nd-in-command(and didn't realize I had 4 people who I would fix to be 2nd-place to satisfy our agreements).

Bobble is solid enough he wouldn't make Yukari's mistake. If he were Hellbourne, he would stay in the shadows, agreeing with the majority, and being inconspicuous. As innocent as he is, Bobble is trying to win and would not blindly agree like that if he were Legion. I have experience with him, and upon reading his posts I make a character judgment on him:

How he is is not how he normally is.

I hate to say it, Bobble, but I have to call you out. I may not have been considering you because of the 3 bigger targets this round, but you certainly passed my initial trickery.

If anyone doubts Bobble, why don't you take down the Triple Trainwreck of a Tragedy above, and then when you've seen how correct I am, you'll trust me on Bobble. He's a slithery one, for sure. :slit:

FlameStick :pyro:

I don't actually have a direct argument for FlameStick. I don't know the guy well at all, and didn't seem to stick out while I was reading the thread.

You guys were going for Andrex or Flamestick; my sleuth skills don't detect anything from Andrex, so the only other one you can reliably lynch is Flamestick.


Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Legion Team:

Javu played extremely defensive. Not only defensive, but was highly altruistic in that he only voted to lynch people he actually thought were Hellbourne. My memory may be sketchy on this, but he didn't appear to attack offensively like a Hellbourne would.

Andrex was worthless the entire game, and very timid. He'd probably be equally timid as Hellbourne, sure, but you can tell the difference. I don't think he's Legion.

Fetyukov is Legion. You guys think he's Legion, I think he's Legion. Is there anything to discuss? I'll post arguments if necessary, but it seems unanimous on this.

EvilDrake... hasn't posted once this entire thread? I'm sorry if I'm completely wrong on this, but I searched through the thread and didn't see anything. Vahn explicitly mentions Hellbourne should have active forum users(which is further evidence for my Hellbourne list), so I can't see this guy not being Legion.



Nolifer: Last one on the list; I'm sure I need to say something about him, but he disrespected the Lord Burge one time and does not get to be talked about.

Too bad. :blac:

(If you actually want evidence that Nolifer is Legion, I'll present it)

Zwai: If you believe what everybody says about themself, all players are Legion! As a corollary, Zwai is Legion.


It was a good game guys. We had some good times; Roger had some bad times; but it was all fun in the end!
This is all entirely circumstantial and contains no actual analysis.
Worse than that, it's actually misleading. EvilDrake is one of the best candidates for being Hellbourne, for Christ's sake, and here you are dismissing him. The more you post, the more convinced I become that you're either insane, trolling, or Hellbourne.

[ShadowExile]

Thank you for spotting that, Yukari. This completes the final piece in my puzzle:

Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Entire Hellbourne Team:


NomesWisdom :bloo:
After failing to attain any sort of real recognition with his Australian "competitive" team, he blames his failure on lag and decides he wants to win a forum competition to show how smart he is.

Unfortunately, Michael Burge - his Omok ranking above 2100 - catches him in the act. Roger is reduced to dirt on the edge of a forum scab(whatever that means) - his punishment for asserting himself on the same level as Michael Burge.
YawningAngel :valk:
Moderating a forum is tough work. Some people who can't handle the stress get fired. Some such people are named YawningAngel, and it's unclear how some such people managed to get back into their position.

Support Michael Burge in his fight against the "Triumvirate of Terror" today! "Some such people" should not be in a position of power as they are in this game on Hellbourne.
ShadowExile :scou:
ShadowExile would like to have you believe he was exiled into the shadows for possibly a noble cause - but he's just forum trash.

Help Michael Burge "take out the trash" today!
Bobble :bubb:
Bobbles isn't half-bad a player. I didn't suspect him until Yukari mentioned this.

Some may recall the old "Red Light Green Light" game we played on the forum months back. I single-handedly dominated the game by scheming to get people on my side and fixing the voting every game. Bobbles was my 2nd-in-command(and didn't realize I had 4 people who I would fix to be 2nd-place to satisfy our agreements).

Bobble is solid enough he wouldn't make Yukari's mistake. If he were Hellbourne, he would stay in the shadows, agreeing with the majority, and being inconspicuous. As innocent as he is, Bobble is trying to win and would not blindly agree like that if he were Legion. I have experience with him, and upon reading his posts I make a character judgment on him:

How he is is not how he normally is.

I hate to say it, Bobble, but I have to call you out. I may not have been considering you because of the 3 bigger targets this round, but you certainly passed my initial trickery.

If anyone doubts Bobble, why don't you take down the Triple Trainwreck of a Tragedy above, and then when you've seen how correct I am, you'll trust me on Bobble. He's a slithery one, for sure. :slit:
FlameStick :pyro:

I don't actually have a direct argument for FlameStick. I don't know the guy well at all, and didn't seem to stick out while I was reading the thread.

You guys were going for Andrex or Flamestick; my sleuth skills don't detect anything from Andrex, so the only other one you can reliably lynch is Flamestick.


Michael Burge's Official Guide to the Legion Team:

Javu played extremely defensive. Not only defensive, but was highly altruistic in that he only voted to lynch people he actually thought were Hellbourne. My memory may be sketchy on this, but he didn't appear to attack offensively like a Hellbourne would.
Andrex was worthless the entire game, and very timid. He'd probably be equally timid as Hellbourne, sure, but you can tell the difference. I don't think he's Legion.
Fetyukov is Legion. You guys think he's Legion, I think he's Legion. Is there anything to discuss? I'll post arguments if necessary, but it seems unanimous on this.
EvilDrake... hasn't posted once this entire thread? I'm sorry if I'm completely wrong on this, but I searched through the thread and didn't see anything. Vahn explicitly mentions Hellbourne should have active forum users(which is further evidence for my Hellbourne list), so I can't see this guy not being Legion.
Nolifer: Last one on the list; I'm sure I need to say something about him, but he disrespected the Lord Burge one time and does not get to be talked about.

Too bad. :blac:

(If you actually want evidence that Nolifer is Legion, I'll present it)
Zwai: If you believe what everybody says about themself, all players are Legion! As a corollary, Zwai is Legion.


It was a good game guys. We had some good times; Roger had some bad times; but it was all fun in the end!

Amusing, I like how you have a story to every person :) Of course, I agree that it is no doubt that Nolifer and Fev are Legion. Though, I looked through the forum posts for Ryoki, and found only posts similar to Evil_Andex's, except he appears even more scummy to me, because he only posted 3 times in the entire existence of this thread, until you came in. Clearly you weren't aware of Ryoki's posting habits, because you changed from the "in the background Hellbourne" that you're accusing Bobble of being to the accuser in the foreground. Out of all these people, I'd say YawningAngel is most definitely not Hellbourne. Why is that? Because I know I'm not Hellbourne, and I am fairly sure that you are Hellbourne, and you and I cannot both be Hellbourne, and you and YawningAngel cannot both be Helbourne.

This leads me to believe that you are most certainly a Hellbourne now, as I know I am not and I did not get the feeling of scumminess from Yawning, combined with (maybe) Javu, either Bobble or FlameStick, most definitely Evil_Andrex and the last I am unsure of. Perhaps it is both Bobble and FlameStick, and you are being extremely risky by bussing both of your teammates, so kudos to you for being brave, but I will re-iterate my previous vote and go,

Vote: Zwei

[Yukari]

I think he plain mis-spelt EvilDrake...

[Zwai]

I feel like you're missing someone on that list there Burge.

Emiya: View your profile. You are a member of forum social group 257; you are a disciple of Michael Burge himself. You are destined for greater things, and he shines his light on you.

Michael Burge cares for his disciples.

[ShadowExile]

Interesting to note is that NomesWisdom, YawningAngel, and ShadowExile are all replying to the thread at the same time.

Maybe we'll get a deluge of text after this post before they realize I'm predicting them.

Interesting to know that the fact that we are all replying makes us easier targets than the more inactive players who are currently not posting. Also, I forgot about EvilDrake as well, I did a quick search for him and he has not posted at all. That definitely concludes it in my mind.

Regardless, Zwei was the most scummy person I could see when he first came into this thread, and he remains it, and now I know for sure that he is.

[YawningAngel]

I'm still not convinced voting Zwai is a safe move until his allegiance is clearer. I THINK he's Hellbourne but I don't KNOW it.

[Yukari]

Interesting to know that the fact that we are all replying makes us easier targets than the more inactive players who are currently not posting. Also, I forgot about EvilDrake as well, I did a quick search for him and he has not posted at all. That definitely concludes it in my mind.

Regardless, Zwei was the most scummy person I could see when he first came into this thread, and he remains it, and now I know for sure that he is.

Are you sure that you did not mis-spell his name? It's showing up perfectly fine for me here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/search.php?searchid=6017370).
Note that the search link will expire soon.

[Zwai]

Are you sure that you did not mis-spell his name? It's showing up perfectly fine for me here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/search.php?searchid=6017370).
Note that the search link will expire soon.

Alright - sorry about that. If my fellow Legions get suspicious because they *really* think he's Hellbourne, I might follow-up.

But honestly, this is the part of the game where I relax in my bed chuckling to myself while thinking about how smart I am.

Expect to be covered in prose while I revel in my own glory; Legion must be sure of the TTT's guilt by now.

[ShadowExile]

Are you sure that you did not mis-spell his name? It's showing up perfectly fine for me here (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/search.php?searchid=6017370).
Note that the search link will expire soon.

Odd, I spelt it exactly like that. I will have to go through his posts. To be honest, it would have been best if I went through all posts, but I cannot be bothered now. If Zwei gets his way and manages to kill one of the Legion, then there will be no point. If we can get through this day without losing a Legion, I will make sure to go back and read all the posts.

[Yukari]

It's strange that it showed blank for both you and burge. Common typo or you know, we can blame chavo.

[ElementUser]

I don't get why that is good game, firstly I didn't put the hammer vote in that actually killed Chuth, and secondly I honestly didn't know Yukari was attempting to get votes on Chuth and then post something that would clarify something.

I wasn't referring to your position in the game at all, merely about that you made a mistake in making a false statement about Yukari making an edit

:doct:

[ElementUser]

You could've just asked me for a recommended list of anime. Ele has been enjoying my recommendations for months. Ain't that right ele?

Oh and yes, that is right!

<3

[Yukari]

@ ShadowExile, PM sent.

[ShadowExile]

@ ShadowExile, PM sent.

@ Yukari, recieved, over.

[Yukari]

Responded, over.

[ShadowExile]

Responded, over.

.revo ,niaga dednopseR

[Yukari]

Already got you covered, over.

Action in the thread died down though. Maybe it's time to get some sleep :o

[ShadowExile]

Probably, it is 2am. Then again, this week is my Mid-term break, so I don't have to go to uni at all... Which is why I am considering pulling an all-nighter and starting on some of that anime you suggested.

[Yukari]

Yeah. Ganna take a nap and finish the last assignment that I'm procrastinating for...

[Zwai]

Michael Burge has clearly won here; so he retreats to his private harem to lounge for now. He will inform you when he has returned.

Or not, I gave you guys my list so you're perfectly capable of winning without me now. When Hellbourne lynches me tonight(maybe even before I return), you know what to do!

[Nolifer]

I'll go over the last posts at a later time, I'm also interested in what the players who haven't done anything on day 5 are thinking.

[GrimmShado]

Yeah, you probably mispelt my name. Interesting enough, Zwei has in his list people i doubt too. On the other hand he might be hb himself, so i'm thorn. However i feel inclined to vote either Bobble or ShadowExile, Bobble seems more like an imp while ShadowExile seems like a conspirator. I have read fully everything, but we are few now, and i don't want to cast a vote until i'm sure that it won't backfire.

[Fetyukov]

Alright, here we go...

Why we shouldn't vote for roger, burge, YA or shadowexile: What burge calls a gambit I call a gamble. Sure it's clear in his mind, but for the rest of us it's honestly rather unclear who we should vote for based on that gamble alone. He keeps quoting that magical 66%, but fails to realize that there may be people with higher percentiles on the scum meter. Furthermore, no one has pointed out the possibility that YA, roger and SE may not be all legion or all hb, it is possible that one or two of them may be hb, with legion players following them based on a really convincing hb. These four are so in the air voting for any of them would be a blind gamble.

Who we should vote: Bobble and Flamestick, it's almost certain that they're hb, even burge is convinced. They're inactive, yet not replaced (which means that they are making their night actions). There's no reason for a sappling to do this. I place more suspicion on Bobble currently because of when finally accused, he simply comes on, posts something pro-legion and goes away. I would have liked to continue that vote, but no-one else seems interested. He also gave the concluding vote to Chuth. I will NOT vote for anyone except flamestick and Bobble today.

Why you should trust me: Simply put almost everyone is convinced that I'm legion (except maybe roger). Serious doubts have been raised against other potential leaders (burge and roger) so they're no option. Other people that stand out as being legion (nolifer and javu in particular) have been reluctant to stand up and take real lead.

With that said, vote bobble, can we agree on this?

[GrimmShado]

Then Bobble it is. Vote Bobble.

[YawningAngel]

Fetyukov, I urge you to reconsider your "I will only vote for xxx" stance. If you will not be swayed, then either you bind us all to your decision or you are Hellbourne (since Legion MUST vote unaminously). Furthermore, we CANNOT leave votes outstanding on anyone until we're sure, since HB can bandwagon them.

[Yukari]

Hm, am I the only one who sees where the 66% comes from? (well in reality its 2/3 but still.)

[Javu]

I've suspected Bobble since he hammered Chuth, so I would be happy to vote him today. However I'm reluctant to place my vote straight away, I want to let this day unfold a little longer

[Yukari]

I've suspected Bobble since he hammered Chuth, so I would be happy to vote him today. However I'm reluctant to place my vote straight away, I want to let this day unfold a little longer

God damn cliffhangers.

[Bobble]

Wait, pull your votes off, I haven't even had a chance to be active today.

This is mylo folks, meaning this is our last vote. Pull your votes off now. Most of us suspected Chuth anyway, and I hadn't hammered him, someone else would have. You all know it. half of you were on the Chuth bandwagon before I put a vote against him.

Also, The only Legion I contributed in lynching off was Chuth. Not really much, eh? I did tell you guys that I would be very inactive this week, since it takes 3 hours for me to get to uni and 3 to get back.

I really tell you guys, pull votes off now, while we have time. I wouldn't normally be this flustered, but we still have a game to win, and I don't want to ruin any of the more active Legion's chances by you all voting me.

[Zwai]

In the interest of ending the day, I will agree with the rest of my fellow Legion:

Vote: Bobble

Keep in mind that I'm going to be lynched tonight, so this discussion is for tomorrow: The fact that YA is opposing Bobble puts doubt on him(If he is Legion, then he is either accusing Fetyukov or EvilDrake of being Hellbourne since if you both are Legion as well, then Hellbourne could've bandwagoned Bobble all day); and the fact that I will not only be revealed as Legion but lynched tonight surely is huge evidence for my list being correct(or at least mostly correct).


I really tell you guys, pull votes off now, while we have time. I wouldn't normally be this flustered, but we still have a game to win, and I don't want to ruin any of the more active Legion's chances by you all voting m

You're talking only to Fetyukov. Once EvilDrake noticed that he was Legion, and Fetyukov is known to be Legion, the fact that you didn't die is evidence for you being guilty(to EvilDrake).

That is, it's either you or EvilDrake here.


I've suspected Bobble since he hammered Chuth, so I would be happy to vote him today. However I'm reluctant to place my vote straight away, I want to let this day unfold a little longer

I honestly would rather vote Roger, Shadow, or YA myself. If one is guilty, the rest of my list follows through like a stack of cards. Bobble's kind of a side-guy.

But if we kill Bobble, and Hellbourne still lynches me, there is an organized force behind Hellbourne that is scared of my list; and since 75% of that list is the TTT...

[Bobble]

I say we look at EvilDrake. All he's done is copy Fet's every move, buddying up with him. it's both very sus and very annoying.

[Bobble]

There is really not much to pin on me. I have tried being more active, and as Fet said, I haven't posted anything very suspicious to him at all. Why vote me? Unless we just want to see the Hellbourne roll in with thier posts.

And Burge, did your opinion change of me simply because of Yukari? I'm really curious.

[Zwai]

There is really not much to pin on me. I have tried being more active, and as Fet said, I haven't posted anything very suspicious to him at all. Why vote me? Unless we just want to see the Hellbourne roll in with thier posts.

And Burge, did your opinion change of me simply because of Yukari? I'm really curious.

You wouldn't make a mistake like that, Bobble. :bubb:

I respect you as a player for almost fooling me, but what must be done must be done.

[Bobble]

You wouldn't make a mistake like that, Bobble. :bubb:

I respect you as a player for almost fooling me, but what must be done must be done.

No, i'm pretty damn flustered, and you're too calm for this. I don't suspect you very much as Hellbourne, but you're too confident about the whole thing.

Evildrake may just be a sheep, but you're something more Burge. Pull your vote mate, or you're looking very scummy.

[Bobble]

Honestly Burge, all you think you have over me is a hammer of Chuth that, given the circumstances of the last day, anybody would have done. We all mistook what Yukari said, does that make us all Hellbourne? You have nothing on me. Pull your vote off, or you're Hellbourne.

[Zwai]

You've only voted off Legion players and made really obvious statements that everyone would agree with. You're afraid of being called out; afraid of being revealed for your deception.


No, i'm pretty damn flustered, and you're too calm for this. I don't suspect you very much as Hellbourne, but you're too confident about the whole thing.

Evildrake may just be a sheep, but you're something more Burge. Pull your vote mate, or you're looking very scummy.

If it's calmness and confidence you're worried about, even :bloo: pointed out how I supposedly trick people with my confidence; :valk: called me insane.

I arrived at my list through cold, hard, logic. The whole point of it is to be confident in it. When it is judged correct by both you being revealed as Hellbourne, and me being lynched by the TTT; my list will still be judged correct.

My faithful disciple Emiya will take my place if I am killed. She will be my advocate; and will know that my list was correct because it was given by the Lord Burge himself.

[ShadowExile]

I do agree with Bobble though. I announced that I wasn't the one who hammered because I was getting quite annoyed about multiple people attacking me. I am very interested in the Legion winning so I didn't want something I misread in Yukari's post being the reason that the Legion would lose, (with my inevitable death if I didn't explain myself, most likely).

However it remains to this point that I did mistake what Yukari said and if Bobble had voted before me, I too would have finished Chuth off. Let me quote what I myself said on that day:


Sigh, I still remain suspicious of Evil_Andrex, and while there are many people who share that suspicion it seems everyone is far more convinced at Chuth. I can't know why for sure, some of his posts have raised an alarm in my head but it's not like the entire security system went off in my head as per what he's been saying. Still, I haven't read the entire thread (still), so I believe there may have been something I missed that would have been an obvious scumtell around Chuth.
Yukari appears to be fully clear as no Keeper, Lego, Insane Scout or anything has come out that would make his claim of Blacksmith impossible, and if we're going to trust anyone in leading a lynch, it would be a clear. And if Yukari is clear, and he's dead set on this lynch for whatever reason, (and I also just want to get this day over with before it's another 10 pages again), then I will just have to trust that and, hopefully not regret later.

Unvote: Evil_Andrex
Vote: Chuth

EDIT: And yes I did accidentally edit this post, all I wrote was "Unvote: Evil Andrex" because I believe that it is a requirement to do that... As everyone else has been doing.


A clear is a clear in any game, so that's purely the reason why I followed him, though I can't speak for Bobble I understand where he's coming from, it was a mistake that quite a few of us made.

Also I have slept on what YawningAngel said and it is somewhat possible that Burge is actually a Legion (trolling or whatever), so I will unvote Zwei just in case, though I will be following whatever comes after this post very closely, (yes, I won't skim posts after this. I will be looking for any scummy hidden meanings that could come from any posts, from the background. Do not expect too many posts from me).

[Fetyukov]

Fetyukov, I urge you to reconsider your "I will only vote for xxx" stance. If you will not be swayed, then either you bind us all to your decision or you are Hellbourne (since Legion MUST vote unaminously). Furthermore, we CANNOT leave votes outstanding on anyone until we're sure, since HB can bandwagon them.

Sorry, I should have phrased this better.

What I meant to say is that I will not be voting for the 4 other 'key players' here today. I am willing to vote others, but it would take some serious convincing, I'd have to arrive at the conclusion myself before following someone else's logic. Basically, I'm not jumping on a bandwagon for someone I'm still unsure of.

[Bobble]

Sorry, I should have phrased this better.

What I meant to say is that I will not be voting for the 4 other 'key players' here today. I am willing to vote others, but it would take some serious convincing, I'd have to arrive at the conclusion myself before following someone else's logic. Basically, I'm not jumping on a bandwagon for someone I'm still unsure of.

Fair enough, but I'm sure you're Legion, and you must know that you can't hastily vote. I urge you man, pull your vote off of me, before all of the Hellbourne become active and we lose. All you have on me is my inactiveness, and I've explained that. Let me be a major player. Besides, you said yourself all of my votes are pro-Legion, why vote me?

[Fetyukov]

unvote bobble

This sticks for the next 2 or 3 hours, in that time you need to convince me that flamestick or someone else (who isnt one of those 4) is a better lynch.

[Bobble]

You've only voted off Legion players and made really obvious statements that everyone would agree with. You're afraid of being called out; afraid of being revealed for your deception.

There are still people alive who have voted off more Legion than me Burge, in fact, that should be 'Player' You sure you're not getting tunnel vision? And besides, in a game where Scout dies right off the bat, it's difficult to make strong accusations, naturally. I'm still very sus of Evildrake though, if that qualifies as a non-obvious statement, Burge. You have nothing to make me out as Hellbourne, accept it. I don't want to lose this game.

[Zwai]

I assert that you are Hellbourne, Bobble. Give me someone from the TTT to lynch, and keep your vote on them; that's evidence in favor of you.

If it looks like you can convince Fetyukov or EvilDrake, we can maybe hit someone else.

[Zwai]

Or, if you think they're all Legion, which is the most suspicious? Can I get an opinion from you Bobble, rather than a panicked defense?

You have 3 hours, before Fetyukov restores his vote.

[Bobble]

unvote bobble

This sticks for the next 2 or 3 hours, in that time you need to convince me that flamestick or someone else (who isnt one of those 4) is a better lynch.

Simple. I propose Evildrake to be Hellbourne. He's never led any lynch on his own, he has stayed defensive, he's always hovering between a couple of names on who to lynch, 'Oh, I think it's x or y', and, most importantly, he always follows you. Look at today for earliest reference. He always waits until you've voted and copies you. Now, you are very pro-Legion Fet, but that doesn't mean you should assume anyone who agrees with you is Legion too. Evildrake hasn't had an opinion of his own, and follows one of the main players. That's very scummy to me, and should be scummy to you, and I think we should all vote for Evildrake.

[Fetyukov]

I'm curious to know your opinions on flamestick, javu, nolifer and anyone else who I've forgotten (other than those 4)

[Bobble]

I'm curious to know your opinions on flamestick, javu, nolifer and anyone else who I've forgotten (other than those 4)

I've posted my opinions on those guys, but i'll reiterate.

Flamestick;

He's very quiet. This means there is no read on him. I don't think the same as you Fet, being quiet doesn't mean he's suspicious. However, I think he's stayed out of this thread due to want, not because he had to. That is suspicious. He is very Hellbourne, from what I can see. If he gives a legitimate reason for his inactiveness, it's all fair.

Javu;

He's very pro Legion, just as you have been Fet. He's been active, helpful, and gives off no scummy vibes. I say he's Legion.

Nolifer

All he's done for a while is tunnel on Flamestick. If he's Hellbourne, Flamestick is Legion, and vice versa.

Emiya

A lesser degree on Evildrake. He wavers his votes, with the whole 'I'm suspicious of this guy, or this guy' thing, yet he doesn't blatantly follow people like Drake does. I doubt two Hellbourne would be so similar, so I really don't suspect Emiya.