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Juked312
09-18-2009, 03:00 AM
The following is a scrub players opinion of how to build Maliken as a carry and the math showing that he can indeed compete and be labeled as a potential carry.
Maliken is definitely not the best carry option. He does not bring the utility other possible carry’s do (madman’s stun, arach’s constant spam slow).

Neither does not have the amazing utility some other carry’s have.

Disclaimer:
1.I am by no means a good player. I did NOT play dota. I just recently started playing hon.
2.This is not a guide on how to play Maliken or what items to get.
3.There is not a TON of math involved, but it’s used.
4. Do not get super excited at numbers posted. All DPS mathematically found could be WRONG. No one checked my math. All DPS is before armor.

Part 1: Maliken can carry?
Now if you’re still reading – let’s start the item build and math.
1.Steamboots (str) – 1,850
2.Insanitarius – 2,850
3.Shrunken Head – 3,900
4.Savage Mace – 5,400
5.Behemoth’s Heart – 5,500
6.Symbol of Rage – 6,150
Total spent: 25,650
Total Health: 4250 Total Mana: 1014
Damage (with Enchanted Flames active): 430-436

Attacks per sec with Ult active: 1.908

DPS: 433 * 1.908 = 826.164 damage per second (full health)
Damage at 2,500 health: (433 * .69 ) + (433 * .31 * 1.8) = 540.4 average damage per hit, including crits.
(2,500 health is 41.18% health missing… which equates to 31% crit)
DPS at 2,500 health: 540.4 * 1.908 = 1031 damage per second


[EDIT in response to MobZombie below I've added the DPS of the same build replacing steamboots (str) for post haste]
New Health: 4050
New Damage (with Enchanted Flames acitive): 420-426 Attacks per second with Ult active: 1.692
DPS: 423 * 1.692 = 715.7 damage per second (full health)

Average Damage with 2,500 health is:
(423 * .7123) + (423 * .2877 * 1.8) = 520.36
(2,500 health is 38.27% health missing = 28.77% crit)

DPS with 2,500 health: (520.36 * 1.692) = 880.45



Part 2: Maliken build differences!
Let’s quickly compare the difference between Glorify Maliken and this version of Maliken:

The purpose of this part is not intended pick on Glorify. His just happened to be the build that came out first, and when I started writing this.
(Aside: As a scrub player – out of all the hon guides out there: Glorify-guide’s have been the biggest help in me learning how to play at a more advanced level – as soon as I learned all the dota name equivalents he uses!)

Nor do I think his item’s are wrong. I think he is building Maliken how in his opinion he should be used. Mock is not a bad item in my opinion. If he can stomp people with it when he gets it at the 30 minute mark… then it’s a good suggestion.

1. Barrier Idol – 3,653
2. Shrunken Head – 3,900
3. Post-Haste – 2,700
4. Demonic Breastplate – 5,550
5. Behemoth’s Heart – 5,500
6. Mock of Brilliance – 5,150
Total: 26,403
Total Life: 3,110 Total Mana: 1,014
Damage (with Enchanted Flames): 290-296

Attack per sec with Ult active: 1.8
DPS: 293 * 1.8 = 527.4 damage per second (full health)
Damage at 2,500 health: (293 * .853 ) + (293 * .147 * 1.8) = 327.47 average damage per hit, including crits.
(2,500 health is 19.61% health missing… which equates to 14.7% crit)
DPS at 2,500 health: 327.47 * 1.8 = 589.4 damage per second


Big differences in builds:
10% more reduction against physical AND magical damage
Demonic breastplate is -5 armor to all enemies.
Mock does 40 AoE TRUE dps. (if your hitting at least 3 people – that’s an extra 120 unmitigated dps)
Vs.
Over 1,000 more max health (which is ignorable if you’re keeping him at 2,500)
Savage Mace mini stun and extra damage (that can crit! That I didn’t include in total dps)
Savage Mace true strike against evasion/wingbow users.
Lifesteal is huge. Get low on health? Pop shrunken, and Symbol and (with armor mitigation included) gain somewhere between 1900-2100 health in 3.5 seconds.


Biggest difference between the two is obviously the fact that the first one does almost double the damage per second assuming 2,500 health.


Final note on difference between Maliken item-builds: EVERY game is different. Never is there the “best” or “cookie-cutter” build you should be building every game. I am not claiming the first set of items are better than the second. Glorify has many many years of experience on a scrub like me. This is just a different perspective.




Part 3: Compared to other Carry’s

I’m going to compare Madman because in my opinion he’s one of the top 3, if not the best. I could compare many others, but I don’t think anyone scales as well as Madman does.

Between his enormous static crit, and ult that raises his attack speed ridiculously high, he’s many people’s definition of carry.

1. Shrunken head – 3,900
2. Steamboots (agil) - 1850
3. Shield Breaker – 4,400
4. Brutalizer – 3,100
5. Wingbow – 6,000
6. Symbol of Rage – 6,150
Total: 25,400

I realize this is not how many people would build him. I based it off a collection of different things and opinion.

Total Life: 2,772 Total Mana: 910

Damage: 327-331 Attack per sec with Ult active: 2.463
Average damage with crit: (329 * .72) + (329 * .28 * 2) = 421.12
DPS: 421.12 * 2.463 = 1037.22

Quickly take note that the DPS is almost identical.

Madman is unarguably the better carry with a better escape, chase, a stun in general… not to mention its AoE. But (1st item-build) Maliken has 1,500 more health. Which is… 50% of Madman’s total health. Pretty much the only thing Maliken has going for him is a little splash and his range.


Feel free to compare other carry’s (or the two above with different item builds!) and post them in the thread. Go to practice. Give yourself 25,000 gold. Buy items. Look at damage. Average it. Look at attacks per second. Multiply.

Not going to keep using this template because I’m lazy and it’s just a $#% load to read to get a point across.

Arachna w/ Flayer, Steamboots, Wingbow, Symbol of Rage, and Savage Mace – I can still put out a ton of damage, just not as much (no worries, I added the crit in). 968 dps, 2.4k health, 25.2k spent if you are wondering.


Thanks for reading

Drasha
09-18-2009, 03:16 AM
You're right about maliken not being the best carry the only problem with your math is that it is unrealistic in a non em competitive game he might be able to get half of the items you listed if he is lucky. The selling point of maliken as a carry is that he can be strong early to mid game if you go with the right item build (steam boots, bracers, insanitarius) for your pure carry item build the behemoths heart should be taken after insanitarius since you need it to live longer.

The other problem with crunching numbers for dps is that it assumes you are sitting their just auto attacking them which never happens in a real game most of the time. Your team has disables and players move so you have to move with them lowering your dps.

Overall this is an interesting way to view the hero but i feel the mathing for dps is not effective for comparing item builds since their are to many factors for this kind of math to be practice. Comparing him to other carrys is a good way to analyze him but again dps is not a good measuring stick.

Nome
09-18-2009, 03:19 AM
Maliken's gettin' buffed in the upcoming patch.

RogerDodger
09-18-2009, 03:28 AM
Maliken's gettin' buffed in the upcoming patch.
Serious?

He already seems like a very balanced character.

He isn't rarely picked (Dark Lady) or over picked (Arachna) and most games he's in he has no dramatic, yet also no entirely negative impact on the team.

He can tank/carry well.

FuzzyWuzzy
09-18-2009, 03:38 AM
Your math is very, very, very wrong.

First of all, one build has Post Haste, yours has Steamboots.

Thus, he WILL overlevel you and outfarm you. In addition, being faster wiht Post Haste. means more hits on a moving target as well. By the time you have farmed 10k gold (a normal farming in a non-EM game), he will have at least 15k easily, which is a Tier 4 item on top, not to mention the level differences.

Demonic Breastplate's -5 armor cannot really be calculated trully, since it depends on the enemy's armor, but in general will give about a ~30% increase in DPS to all your teammates AND to buildings as well. If you have another DPS'er in the team, it will benefit greatly as well. Not to mention the +5 armor to your teammates which protects your casters and so forth.

In addition, rushing Mock of Brilliance (not that hard if you are solo) will increase his farming exponentially with Post Hasste. Thus, by the time you have Steam Boots, Insanitarius and Shrunken, he can easily have Post Haste / Mock / Head and Insanitarius.

Juked312
09-18-2009, 10:25 AM
[...] for your pure carry item build the behemoths heart should be taken after insanitarius since you need it to live longer.

The other problem with crunching numbers for dps is that it assumes you are sitting their just auto attacking them which never happens in a real game most of the time. Your team has disables and players move so you have to move with them lowering your dps.

To Drasha: Very true. I want to point out first that i didn't list the items in ANY specific order. This is not a guide on what to get, or what to get first.
I just thought it would be interesting to compare what is possible.

I'm aware that it assumes you are just auto-attacking. But at no point did i say you'll actually be doing 1,000 damage a second. It isn't supposed to be used to crunch numbers and say "over a 60 second fight i can do 30,000 damage!!"

It's also completely unrealistic that you sit at 2,500 health the entire fight. You get focused.. and lose health. You don't get focused and gain more from lifesteal - thus reducing your crit and damage output.

If you DPS for a second... move forward with the group... DPS for another half second... move forward and DPS with the group for another 2 seconds.
You are still running with the group and still doing doing damage based on the numbers posted.

It's also impossible to calculate your damage in a group fight from just numbers and item builds. But I believe DPS can be used to some-what /theoretically benchmark how much damage you can do.

Obviously the reality is much different. Madman is constantly stunning you while getting more auto-attacks in, he is much faster and can unit-walk to catch up to you.
Arachna can slow you 100% of the time as long as she is orb walking. While Maliken only has is sword throw to slow you momentarily.


To MobZombie:
You tell me my actual math is wrong... but you don't elaborate at all on which part or what is wrong (concerning just math).
I really would like to know which part is wrong so I can fix it.
It says in the disclaimer (if you read it) that my math could definitely be wrong and it wasn't checked.

Very true on post-haste. I'm an idiot. Was taking it straight from Glorify's guide. I'll readjust to the numbers to add post-haste into the Part 1.

I'm aware that Demonic breastplate cannot be shown. That is why i didn't attempt to calculate it and added it to the "pro/con" section.



Once again -- this is not a guide. Only a bunch of numbers meant to stimulate a side of an argument.

I used the number 25-26,000 gold because it was the amount of $$ Glorify used in his build on his guide.
I honestly don't have the experience to say if someone can farm anywhere near that much in a average non-EM game.

HttK_ProStar
09-18-2009, 10:33 AM
yeah you can farm ~25k in a non em game, assuming you're playing as zephyr and tower skipping

Pyros
09-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Maliken's gettin' buffed in the upcoming patch.

Hopefully that comes with a swordthrow nerf, he's incredibly potent early game for a carry due to sword throw, he can easily tower dive and gank most squishies especially if they don't have disables.

FuzzyWuzzy
09-18-2009, 11:09 AM
About the math ->

I think you are exaggerating the DPS on your build.

An average of 12-15 armor of your target will reduce it about 50%, since you don't have Shieldbreaker or Breastplate.

This is far more than the Radiance addition of Glorify's build, which should hit at least 2 targets for 80 damage total.

I DO agree that Symbol of Rage is an excellent item on Maliken though, but so are many other items - for example Shieldbreaker and the new Geometer's Bane especially.

Overall the math -> You have 300 more dps, which reduced after armor will be more like 150. This is easily offseted by AoE damage from Mock, more levels, more movement speed, more items, and increased DPS and survivability from Breastplate.

If you have a Shieldbreaker and a Breastplate carrier in your team, then of course, is another story.

Eserem
09-18-2009, 11:10 AM
This is a nice, yet extremely expensive, build imo (but so are your builds):
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1947/malikenk.jpg

Was a really dragged out game.. Keeper of the Forest really extended the game length with his double ultimate.

To me, Maliken is a great carry, possibly the best in the game atm. Really beefy hero with a ranged attack is never something to scoff at.
Geometer's Bane fits really well with him. Illusions have lots of hp and can take a lot of AoE damage, which is what makes the item so much better than on an agi hero.

FuzzyWuzzy
09-18-2009, 12:13 PM
This is a nice, yet extremely expensive, build imo (but so are your builds):
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1947/malikenk.jpg

Was a really dragged out game.. Keeper of the Forest really extended the game length with his double ultimate.

To me, Maliken is a great carry, possibly the best in the game atm. Really beefy hero with a ranged attack is never something to scoff at.
Geometer's Bane fits really well with him. Illusions have lots of hp and can take a lot of AoE damage, which is what makes the item so much better than on an agi hero.

Your build is probably the item build I would agree on (well except you are missing Shrunken Head, but you don't really need it after Geometer's Bane)

Juked312
09-18-2009, 12:25 PM
About the math ->

I think you are exaggerating the DPS on your build.

An average of 12-15 armor of your target will reduce it about 50%, since you don't have Shieldbreaker or Breastplate.

This is far more than the Radiance addition of Glorify's build, which should hit at least 2 targets for 80 damage total.

I DO agree that Symbol of Rage is an excellent item on Maliken though, but so are many other items - for example Shieldbreaker and the new Geometer's Bane especially.

Overall the math -> You have 300 more dps, which reduced after armor will be more like 150. This is easily offseted by AoE damage from Mock, more levels, more movement speed, more items, and increased DPS and survivability from Breastplate.

If you have a Shieldbreaker and a Breastplate carrier in your team, then of course, is another story.


I actually have any where from 40-60% too much over bloated damage which is 300-600 extra.
The numbers are very over bloated and appear much more "whoa" then they are.

I do say in the disclaimer (not sure if you read it... again, it was in the original post) that all DPS is before armor. And I even mention the mitigation of armor multiple times throughout the post.
Of course this isn't true damage (which i mention mock is in fact very good, because it is).

Drasha
09-18-2009, 12:37 PM
Mock is not true damage it is magic damage. You do about 32 damage with it in an aoe with magic armor and if the have a headdress you do about 20 and if they get the upgraded version for the aoe magic shield you do no damage for a while.

Czech0
09-18-2009, 12:45 PM
All of the builds you are comparing are insane. You are looking at very end game, with like an hour of game play. 90% of games are over before you can farm those items. I think it is much more interesting to look at core item builds. Core items dictate when a hero becomes effective. If the items take too long the farm then the game will be over before he can attain them and contribute.

This is why Chronos is not considered the best carry. He takes too long to farm his core items to become effective. He fits in with less teams and is a gamble due to how long he takes to get going and his fragility.

If you are comparing end game/completely farmed carries then Chronos is your boy.

PieExplosion
09-18-2009, 02:16 PM
First item build has wet newspaper armor.

Glorify1
09-18-2009, 02:18 PM
Arachna is a joke compared to Maliken.