Scout, where is the disconnect on his usefulness?

[PerfectBlue]

As a new player I continually see 2 major areas of thought concerning scouts usefulness. One camp says he is incredibly useful, a huge threat to the enemy team if played correctly, and one of the best gankers in the game (mostly EM players). The other camp says he is one of the most bottom tier heroes and contributes nothing to the game (typically seems to be normal mode players). Now as a new player where does the disconnect fall? I have played a variety of both EM and normal games, and while EM scout does seem to destroy pub EM games he seems fairly decent in normal as well.

Could some one please explain this disconnect and why more experienced players call him garbage?

[Darkstrand]

Saying he's useless and such is completely ludicrous, he has his time and place like every other hero.

It basically all stems from pub players failing at the hero, and all the other pub players deeming the hero bad. A vicious cycle.

[Inziladun]

I wouldn't say he's terrible, but he's by no stretch one of the better heroes.

Mainly scout just tends to steal kills in pub games, making him extremely annoying to play with, especially because not only is scout not a good carry, the person playing him is usually a retard.

Basically what I like to call "Hunter syndrome" People like to play the cool looking characters, and while the character itself may not have anything wrong with it, the people playing it tend to portray a different light.

[gipp2]

he is only good for free wards.

as a carry, he fails. most carries have a way to keep on people through a snare/stun or blink.
a scout trying to kill someone with ult on cd isnt going to happen. he just cant keep up with them.
you can say "vanish chase" thats 1 hit every 10-12 seconds, not going to kill anybody.

his ult is ok. it takes forever early game to cast.
anyone with a brain is going to LOS it while its charging up. its also a sign of "they are about to gank me, time to back out"
once you are 16 (considering you didnt solo lol) everyone has enough life to survive your super scary ult making your ganking pathetic.

so far, we have a carry that cant really carry.
and a mediocre ult.

he is pretty much only good at what his name is, scouting.
but when it comes to team battles, your scouting skills will get you nowhere.
you will pop vanish ambush on somebody and then continue to deal poor damage or die right away.

hes not an "autolose" hero. good people will always be good or decent on heros.
its just that too many heros do what he does but better.

[JoeMartin]

He's a mediocre hero at his best.

He can't well function as a carry unless he's farmed to hell, and he's not very good at farming at that. His ult, while good for initiating and finishing off kills ("KSing" as some people would claim - it is, in fact, good for finishing off kills that manage to slip away with low HP) in the mid game quickly wanes as HP increases. The base evasion and being able to chain stealth is good for survivability, but survivability isn't all that important to Scout since you've got jack for utility inside of a fight and don't do all that much damage to begin with.

Electric Eye is the only true saving grace of Scout, as having 4 permanent wards is greatly advantageous towards monitoring enemy traffic, but nothing that can't be accomplished with a relatively cheap item and some good communication.

And herein lies the vicious cycle: Players that know well enough to take Electric Eye from level 1 are usually also aware of the fact that Scout is, on the whole, a subpar hero and the team would do well with something else. Thus the only people who generally pick Scout are terrible at it in the first place. Putting a subpar hero in a supbar players hands doesn't go over too well come game time. Thus Scout appears to be greatly worse than he actually is, despite still being a subpar hero even when played correctly.

[VortexMagus]

He's bad because unless you follow a very specific build order and a very specific style of play, he's a total waste of a hero slot. Since I've yet to see more than 1-2 scouts in 80+ games with scout play the early game properly, I consider myself justified in groaning and banging my head to the wall whenever some random pubber picks him.

GET ELECTRIC EYE FIRST AND THIRD LEVELS, DAMMIT: FULL RUNE CONTROL AT 2 MINUTES > 10 EXTRA SECONDS ON VANISH/10 EXTRA CRIT DPS.

[Valor2002]

I go with what Inziladun (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=135770) wrote. A really good player can definatly rule with scout. But most good players choose other heros (mostly team-oriented heros). Scout is one of the heros picked by noobs. I am not a very good player, but i haved destroyed so many scout noobs, its ridiculous. If you are careful and use wards or an eye on a tank, its so easy to counter scout.

[RogerDodger]

The only ues he can have lategame is buying a Radiance/Mock... and even then Night Hound is the better option.

[Cataclysma]

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=15645

Refer to this. Scout is the worst hero in the game.

[shammma]

He is useful in the way that nighthoud is useful as an invis hero, he activly follow the other threats on the team until they get an eye. His wards are also incredibly powerful early on (and I think they limited the number of sentry wards a team can have down at a time, so it makes his inherient wards more useful).

Aside from that he is really quite weak. His passive, while decent, doesnt fit with the rest of his moveset and he still cant go up against any other carry when he doesnt have a large item advantage.

The gap comes from the general playstyle differences between EM and non-EM games:

In most EM games players are more likely to wander off on thier own, which leaves them open to ganks from scout (and potentially his team). People also tend to skip our on buying bracers (and stuff like that) which makes his ult do a considerable percentage of of their life off the bat. People also tend to stay in lane when they know that scout is around (aka he will backstab them and vanish) instead of getting help or backing.

In most normal games, teams tend to react to their teammates calls for help faster and travel in groups more often. Groupfights and teamganks are far more common, and as good as scout may be in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation, he is probably one of the worst heroes in a 4v4 or 5v5 fight. He has very low survivability and low damage (even with his passive). His wards are essentially useless in fights (dust is better) and his ult is fairly mediocre; most heroes are a lot stronger.

You might say that I'm describing good players versus bad players, but its just how I see games played. The vast majority of EM games either have no PSR req or a low one, while the majority have some PSR req. In the 3+ months I have been playing, I have yet to see an EM game with a rating req above 1700 while its farily common to see those for non-EM games.

[KnightDavion]

Scout is a fine hero, hes a semi carry with a strong background in support. The problem is that noobs can play scout in terrible ways, giving him a wretched reputation. I cant say I really blame people I have been burned countless times by idiot scout players. I will always welcome a good scout player on my team.

[kameelyan]

A codex is a must on a scout. I've even built a totem on him after max level codex. Last game as scout I went 11-1-19. He can be played well...it's just most people have no clue how to play him.

With max level codex (which really doesn't take that long to get), you're doing 800 dmg every 20s with a 20s ult cooldown at level 16 that does 625 damage.

The combo looks somelike like this, vanish, wait for cd to come off, strike, totem, ult, codex, vanish, finish. This will be bring down any caster as long as you weren't an idiot scout and fed all game.

[Testknight]

Leave scout alone

[Cataclysma]

Doesn't change the fact that he's a bad hero.

[Bludgar]

Alright, let's, instead of opinions, let's use facts and look at his skillset. Also, item possibilities to turn him into a carry.

Skill one - vanish for 30 secs with 15 sec cooldown, bonus of +120 damage on first hit, +25% movespeed.

Skill two - four permanent wards

Skill three - +20% evasion, +15% critical hit chance for 2x damage

Skill four - 650 damage, 2500 damage range, slows target, 20 sec cooldown, 1.5 sec channel

What these all equal is someone who doesn't really need wingbow (though it IS a nice item to have) because you already have evasion, you don't really need flayer, you have a permanent ward system, and you have the longest range non-global nuke that slows targets as well. As a scout, your business is information. You can roam from lane to lane to gank, you're great at chasing, you can invest in a nullfire blade earlier because wingbow and flayer on non-essential, you have a very high utility, and few people can actually catch you. ANYONE that thinks scout is useless doesn't know what the hell they're talking about.

Furthermore, yes, Codex is a fun item, but you really shouldn't be building it in the first place as an AGI. You get +3.0 agility per level, which is nearly the highest, meaning by level 10, you've got +30 attack speed and damage, level 25, +75 attack speed and damage. Your vanish skill can be stacked so that you can hit for +120 damage, vanish, hit for +120 damage. Your invis + move speed means you should NEVER die. Also, being able to stay invisible for long periods of time, you can spend less on +str/health items and more on stuff that makes you a better ganking carry. Your ultimate can be unleashed from an ungodly distance, so if one of your teammates is chasing an enemy hero down, you can launch it from nearly half a map away.

Is Scout the best AGI carry? No. Is he useless? No. He excels at what his namesake is: Scouting. I've ended games (I've NEVER played an EM match) where he went 25 kills, 2 deaths. However, when in inexperienced hands, he easily feeds. I like to think of him as the Luigi from Mario Kart 64 - he's a great all-around pick, but whether he wins or loses depends solely on the skill of the player.

Blame bad playing, not bad hero-picking.

[Mephs]

A codex is a must on a scout. I've even built a totem on him after max level codex. Last game as scout I went 11-1-19. He can be played well...it's just most people have no clue how to play him.

With max level codex (which really doesn't take that long to get), you're doing 800 dmg every 20s with a 20s ult cooldown at level 16 that does 625 damage.

The combo looks somelike like this, vanish, wait for cd to come off, strike, totem, ult, codex, vanish, finish. This will be bring down any caster as long as you weren't an idiot scout and fed all game.

Scout on EM mode 101. Thanks we know

[Nedrapter]

Scout's pros:
-Excellent rune control. It's the best way to ward the runes.
-The rest 2 wards can help quite a bit.
-A hero that wont die much.

Scout's cons:
-Annoying to his teammates. He needs to be hidden to deal some damage, that makes your allies the only visible target to your enemy.
-Has no ability that can help an ally. Some may say that his ulti will slow a chasing enemy. It takes forever to cast and dealing dmg was never a way to help a mate of yours.
-Poor dmg due to his skill synergies, after mid game.
-Popularly used to steal kills rather than actual help in battle.
-Completely useless against enemies with wards/bound eye.
Has no effective disable skills, to ensure that someone will die one a 1 vs 1 battle.


In Public games and EM games, usually the game's victor is determined by who is more skilled in game and if what hero he has. A scout that is better player than the rest can easily own in such a game.
High lvl games though, mostly depend on hero choice, because, the players' skill is almost the same. There scout fails miserably.

Conclusion:

Is a fun hero that can grant you satisfaction in easy games (but can annopy your team). And a bad choice (so bad that your team may concede by picking him) at higher lvl games.

Choose a hero according to the game.

[Agitator5]

As a general rule PerfectBlue, never pick scout. When you become good enough to know why you should never pick him then you will be allowed to pick him, of course you will choose not to but until then just dont.

[Glorify1]

He's useless. Ult takes forever to cast, does little damage, slow is negligible, easily dodged by fog/disjointing.

Vanish does nothing other than trick players into running around the map wasting time, farm, experience.

Worst steroid in the game.

Wards are essentially shitty versions of tree's eyes.

[Grinbomb]

A codex is a must on a scout. I've even built a totem on him after max level codex. Last game as scout I went 11-1-19. He can be played well...it's just most people have no clue how to play him.

With max level codex (which really doesn't take that long to get), you're doing 800 dmg every 20s with a 20s ult cooldown at level 16 that does 625 damage.

The combo looks somelike like this, vanish, wait for cd to come off, strike, totem, ult, codex, vanish, finish. This will be bring down any caster as long as you weren't an idiot scout and fed all game.

Level 5 Codex and Totem of Kuldra comes to a whopping total of 13925 gold. Where do you find the time to farm that as Scout?

For comparison, here is what 13545 could buy you.

2x Soulscream Ring
Steamboots
Whispering Helm
Wingbow
Stormspirit

So instead of being a Codex ganker, you're a semi carry with a Stormspirit for a disable. You also have the added benefit of gaining stats early, when Scout is at his peak, rather than waiting to finish a big ticket item. I'm not claiming that this is a good Scout build, just trying to compare what you could do, instead of buying a Codex/Totem.

[Well_Shebber]

Basically what I like to call "Hunter syndrome"

i c wut u did thar

[dreamex]

Level 5 Codex and Totem of Kuldra comes to a whopping total of 13925 gold. Where do you find the time to farm that as Scout?

For comparison, here is what 13545 could buy you.

2x Soulscream Ring
Steamboots
Whispering Helm
Wingbow
Stormspirit

So instead of being a Codex ganker, you're a semi carry with a Stormspirit for a disable. You also have the added benefit of gaining stats early, when Scout is at his peak, rather than waiting to finish a big ticket item. I'm not claiming that this is a good Scout build, just trying to compare what you could do, instead of buying a Codex/Totem.

Buying Codex is always good.

[Ryno2112]

Scout is what is commonly refered toa s a pub stomp hero. He's very easy to use and 90% of the time when place din the hands of a decent player he can wipe out a pub team.

In hgiher play he's like instead of having anotehr hero on thet eam, you gain a nuetral who'll but up wards in exchange for kills. Any money that goes to scout honestly can't help the team. As stated he's a semi carry that can't carry and his gangk skills are all KS potential and don't help chase at all. So what ends up happening is you ahve scout who'll either have been food the entire time or have a few kills but does nothing for the team. He's a money sink that could otherwise be many other heroes who can also get kills AND offer a disable or something to the team.

[dreamex]

Scout is what is commonly refered toa s a pub stomp hero. He's very easy to use and 90% of the time when place din the hands of a decent player he can wipe out a pub team.

In hgiher play he's like instead of having anotehr hero on thet eam, you gain a nuetral who'll but up wards in exchange for kills. Any money that goes to scout honestly can't help the team. As stated he's a semi carry that can't carry and his gangk skills are all KS potential and don't help chase at all. So what ends up happening is you ahve scout who'll either have been food the entire time or have a few kills but does nothing for the team. He's a money sink that could otherwise be many other heroes who can also get kills AND offer a disable or something to the team.

I'd wager that scout's almost as useful as Glacius in a true team setting.

And Glacius is literally nothing but buying wards and an aura.

[Grinbomb]

Scout is what is commonly refered toa s a pub stomp hero. He's very easy to use and 90% of the time when place din the hands of a decent player he can wipe out a pub team.


I have to admit, I chuckled.

[gipp2]

Buying Codex is always good.

exactly why it shouldnt be used to defend scout.

a scout may instant gib someone while ganking with a codex and ult (still considering they are retarded and stand there for the whole 5 seconds of ult channeling)
but that just makes him a 1 trick pony.
what does scout do after that? sit around and be useless as he tries to kill the others in a team battle.
that instant kill trick only works against retards that
A. sit alone
B. dont have truesight.
c. DONT GET STATS/hood

you put him vs competent players, he is just trash.
his 1 trick may not even kill a person.

codex is good on everyone. because 800 damage is always good.
i bet a codex chronos could stomp a pub.

yes a scout that actually scouts brings some use to the team.
but the whole game doesnt revolve around playing hide and seek.
you may be able to see all 5 of us trotting happily through the woods heading to your base. what are you and your little scout going to do about it?

it revolves around that special team fight moment that decides if you are going to rax them. and in that moment, scout is the fat kid on your dodge ball team.

he is just really badly synergized.
atleast bounty hunter could interrupt an ultimate with toss and actually stay on people to kill them with track also granting vision.
scout is just a cripple.

built with map awareness skill (that slither can get rid of on cliffs). atleast rexxar got a boar with his hawk and actual damaging skills to support it.

semi carry skills that rely on your team to disable people so you can hit them with your chop sticks.
yet he is still so weak and if im not mistaken, his attack animation is terrible too so you can be that much better at laning.

and ultimate that does ok damage, but is easily avoided and pretty much steals the kill before it actually goes off to be useful in a gank pre-16.

you can say glacius is only useful for his aura. atleast glacius has a slow and a disable during team fights. oh and an ultimate that requires enemies to actually deal with you rather than let you shoot someone as you vanish away, thus ignoring poor scout.

[Ryno2112]

I have to admit, I chuckled.


As in Hellbourne or legion team bro not a Pub "team" lol oxymoron statement otherwise.

[Grinbomb]

As in Hellbourne or legion team bro not a Pub "team" lol oxymoron statement otherwise.

The part I was laughing at was where you suggested Scout was capable of wiping out a team. Not the fact that you said "pub team".

[Ryno2112]

The part I was laughing at was where you suggested Scout was capable of wiping out a team. Not the fact that you said "pub team".


In a pub? I've personally gone around and wiped out a pub team for the lulz with scout. If you haven't done a game with scout for the lulz yet and gotten a blood bath you haven't really played HoN yet.

[Grinbomb]

Oh so what you're saying is you killed a player, and then went and killed another player, and so on. You see when you say "wiped out" I think Behemoth blinking in and running the lolultistun train over your team. Not a Scout running around picking off low HP heroes who are too stupid to heal when they're at 10% life.

[EnragedCamel]

Level 5 Codex and Totem of Kuldra comes to a whopping total of 13925 gold. Where do you find the time to farm that as Scout?

From kill stealing of course, duh!

[Sakers]

Having a scout in a group is like fighting all your team battles 4v5. He can initiate with his ult and deal decent damage to one target... and thats about it. If he tries to stick around and melee like a carry he won't deal much damage and gets killed. Otherwise he can stay hidden and be useless. He has no abilites to support the team unless the enemy has night hound or something and then he can drop an eye in the middle of the fight...

One thing he IS good for is being the difference between an enemy escaping a team battle with 10% health and a kill... for the scout. That only adds to peoples hatred because he does nothing and then pops up to get the kill.

[Invictus]

95% of Scout players are useless.
They never level Wards, unless you scream at them.
They contribute virtually nothing to team battles unless you count Kill steals.
Finally, more often then not they either tend to complain when your team is getting fed on that you suck (yet the battles are 4v5 or 3v5) or have no idea what they are doing except wondering around the map with vanish on.

Top end players don't pick Scout. He is too weak to be a carry and is nothing more then a one trick pony.

[CronoDroid]

Scout is 100% useless. People always say "oh in the hands of a good player he is fine" but this makes zero sense. If he's "fine" in the hands of a good player, then why doesn't that good player pick a better hero and own even more?

You can buy wards in the shop. So what is he good for then? He doesn't do any damage, he is fragile, he has no initiating ability in a teamfight (Madman has AOE Stun, NH has Smoke), his passive is useless and vanish is good for running away. Wow, he can run away really well and hide, that sounds awesome.

Anyone who says Scout is "okay" is either an idiot or bad at the game. Instead of having a good Scout on your team, why don't you have a good Tempest instead? Or a good Behemoth? He cannot be played well because he contributes zero to a game. It doesn't matter how awesome your stat line is. It doesn't mean ****, because you can get an awesome stat line with ANOTHER hero, maybe one with a stun.

Stop talking about stat lines. Do you know what 20-1 means? It means you have stolen 20 kills from other heroes on your team who need items and experience. Well done, you're a retard. Go kill yourself.

Conclusion: You CAN pick Scout and play him "well", but you can also pick any other hero and play him/her well. So why pick Scout?

[SteveNick]

I did pretty well playing scout last game. It wasn't a pub stomp or anything. It was a 3v3 game, roughly balanced, Scout/Andromeda/Glacius vs. Electrician/Accursed/Pyromancer. Our Glacius was pretty much a feeder.

I spent most of the early game just harassing Pyromancer and letting the tanks do whatever they wanted to do. Mid/late game I could pretty much dominate any of them with auto attack at equal levels. The other team was never underleveled.

I did the standard eye/vanish/eye/vanish/vanish start, then maxed dexterity before getting the last 2 eyes, then all stats.

For items I went Hack and Slash > Runed Axe > Mock of Brilliance > Abyssal Skull.

I ended up around 9-2-11 that game.

In my opinion, he's a legitimate pick. Sure, he may not dominate like some late gamers do, but he's useful throughout the game, and can be a carry late game with the right items. You also have to consider his utility with vanish, meaning you won't die much as a carry, and can easily gank, or basically go whereever you want on the map without much worry.

Yes, I know there are better characters to play, but each character has different roles. Not everyone on the team needs an AOE stun or AOE attack. Scout does fine auto attack DPS.

Also, in SD matches(which is what I picked him in the game above), you sometimes have little choice. Scout is better than plenty of heroes at certain roles. If you're an SD with a line up like Scout/Ophelia/Kraken, I don't see why Scout isn't a legitimate pick.

Also, on an unrelated note, I think that vanish should probably have a mini stun.

The only times that I felt truly helpless playing scout that game were when I was at full health and had a dying teammate getting static gripped or something. A mini stun would be a good addition to him.

[Puchi]

he is useless since he is so easy to counter, all you need is for some1 in your team to get dust/ward/eye and he is from that point and on useless.

[Puchi]

Also, in SD matches(which is what I picked him in the game above), you sometimes have little choice. Scout is better than plenty of heroes at certain roles. If you're an SD with a line up like Scout/Ophelia/Kraken, I don't see why Scout isn't a legitimate pick.


Kraken > scout in oh so many ways!

I know you where just stating a point, but its all about the level of play, i would never pick scout playing 1750+ for example since its a big chance the enemy team will deprive me of stealth using wards/dust/beye