What is the preferred way to deal with OP/UP heroes

[KARTlK]

Frandly JoshP says, "buff/nerf heroes with minor changes

(stat changes, movement speed, armor, small number tweaks on spells)".

That was from a locked thread where I asked the same question. His choice was (obviously) number balances.

To me, there are two distinct ways to change heroes. Changes like what JoshP suggests, number changes, and changes to the mechanics of a spell.

(After this is pretty unnecessary so if you think you just understand what I'm asking feel free to skip and just respond and you won't have missed anything).

Ways to change with numbers are: stat changes (starting and per level), armor, movement speed, armor, cooldown, mana cost on spells, auto attack range, attack speed, attack backswings, spell backswings, range on spells, how much a spell slows or damages, duration, and changes on numbers in buffs or debuffs (armor on pred's stone hide increased to twenty, for example).

The other kind involve what the spell can do. Can it slow? Can it be cast without a cast time? Does it go through magic immunity? Does it ministun? Is it unpurgeable? etc.

JoshP likes changes of the first kind. It seems that "perfect balance" can be achieved with balancing in the manner that he described. Yet, in jah's balance thread many of his suggestions include changes of the other kind.

Here's a quick comparison from DotA to HoN. In both, pyro and lina were pretty underpowered.

In HoN, Nome suggested that pyro gained fervor. After spells or autoattacks hit, they burn.

In DotA, the cooldown of his wave was reduced, his ult damage was increased and a few other things maybe that I can't remember.

So guise, what does the competitive community want in balancing?

[Zakharov]

I think it depends on the nature of the problem:

#1 - Is the hero/skill/item just a bit too weak or too powerful, but fine in concept? Tweak the numbers. For example, DS used to be too good of a babysitter, so S2 nerfed his range and base damage.

#2 - Does the hero/skill/item have a decent concept, but with some flaws? Make a minor mechanical change. For example, Pyro was too similar to Witch. S2 added Fervor in order to make his autoattacks and tower pushing stronger. This resulted in Pyro being seen as more of a ganker, and WS as more of a support hero (in this case, I don't think it made too much of a difference - Pyro still can't DPS).

#3 - Does the hero/skill/item have a completely broken concept? For example, the original Engineer turret was just insane. S2 could have nerfed its damage to the point of being useless, but it's unlikely they could have made it well-balanced. These need major changes.

I think (and this is just my subjective opinion) that about 30-50% the heroes in the game fall into category #1, 10% into category #2, and Scout and Sand Wraith fall into category #3, both for being far too farm-dependent.

[mindspank]

Actually. Lina/Pyromancer is a bad example. He's one of the best trilaners incidentally as it stands. He's going to see alot of light the coming weeks due to the low cooldowns on his spells along with really low mana cost. Allows you to use your nukes several times during a fight in a trilane without running out of mana.

That's what needed in todays trilanes.

[KARTlK]

Well the original engi turret was totally useless but I get your point I suppose.

In my original thread I asked what heroes fall under what category. As far as I can tell (and according to JoshP if my interpretation is right), there are no heroes that have simply broken mechanics. Dark Lady used to be considered just a broken hero but she had her spell not being global. That's about it.

[Hax]

Actually. Lina/Pyromancer is a bad example. He's one of the best trilaners incidentally as it stands. He's going to see alot of light the coming weeks due to the low cooldowns on his spells along with really low mana cost. Allows you to use your nukes several times during a fight in a trilane without running out of mana.

That's what needed in todays trilanes.

The range of his stun is rubbish, though.

[uRgayLOLhth]

Actually. Lina/Pyromancer is a bad example. He's one of the best trilaners incidentally as it stands. He's going to see alot of light the coming weeks due to the low cooldowns on his spells along with really low mana cost. Allows you to use your nukes several times during a fight in a trilane without running out of mana.

That's what needed in todays trilanes.
where do you get your info
the only person whose ever gunna use pyro in comp games is angrytestie mid
:pyro:

[zergscum]

I don't really think pyro is an especially good trilaner tbh

a few dota teams use lina a fair amount but only when they can't get better heroes for their trilane (visage comes to mind)

clearly he can trilane decently well but he's a dual lane hero who needs farm to make him worth the pick

[Hsssh]

Putting him in a tri-lane wastes his burst potential imo.

[BadaBing]

Don't argue how good/bad Pyro is in a trilane, ffs.

[Zakharov]

Well the original engi turret was totally useless but I get your point I suppose.

In my original thread I asked what heroes fall under what category. As far as I can tell (and according to JoshP if my interpretation is right), there are no heroes that have simply broken mechanics. Dark Lady used to be considered just a broken hero but she had her spell not being global. That's about it.

I'd argue Scout has completely broken mechanics. The few times we've seen him in competitive play, he's devoted 20-30 minutes entirely to farming before even attempting to do anything else. His eyes and vanish mean that it doesn't even take a lot of skill to know where and when to farm with him. Once he's farmed up, he's able to burst down heroes in seconds, but that's still fairly boring and skill-less. If scout was buffed to the point of being competitively viable, he'd make the game much less interesting.

[BloodyJester]

Ban OP heroes and dont pick up heroes

[KARTlK]

I'd argue Scout has completely broken mechanics. The few times we've seen him in competitive play, he's devoted 20-30 minutes entirely to farming before even attempting to do anything else. His eyes and vanish mean that it doesn't even take a lot of skill to know where and when to farm with him. Once he's farmed up, he's able to burst down heroes in seconds, but that's still fairly boring and skill-less. If scout was buffed to the point of being competitively viable, he'd make the game much less interesting.

OK. When I first thought about this I thought that maybe you were right and scout really just is a broken concept.

He actually isn't. Think about what you said. Every time we've seen him, he's used in the exact same way. His disarm + flurry means a reliable way to stop hard auto attack carries and his silence goes through shrunken head so he is extremely useful even without farm.

I'd simply argue that teams are playing him wrong right now (or they were) and nobody has used him to his strongest potential as a semicarry utility hero.

By the way, just because a hero is useless without farm doesn't mean he's broken. Sand Wraith is basically useless. He's got one nuke that makes him a decent chaser. Basically no lane presence. Mid game his damage comes from his passive with his ult and he's not useless because he has a passive that makes him tanky. So he doesn't die, but he still doesn't do anything.

But Sand Wraith is a great hero. You HAVE to get farm on him or he doesn't do anything. He has no utility. Scout has utility.

So mang I think balancing with just numbers changes looking good right now. IDK someone prove me wrong or just tell me I'm wrong cause I think S2 has been balancing wrong by not just using -1 cooldown on spell w or +30 damage on nuke.

[AychAychAych]

If all heroes had to be useful without certain amount of farm, we would start erasing/remaking lot of people from the hero pool.

[Zakharov]

OK. When I first thought about this I thought that maybe you were right and scout really just is a broken concept.

He actually isn't. Think about what you said. Every time we've seen him, he's used in the exact same way. His disarm + flurry means a reliable way to stop hard auto attack carries and his silence goes through shrunken head so he is extremely useful even without farm.

I'd simply argue that teams are playing him wrong right now (or they were) and nobody has used him to his strongest potential as a semicarry utility hero.

Well, I'd argue at least that "carry scout" is conceptually broken. "Semicarry scout" might not be a broken concept. I think that the current implementation of scout makes "carry scout" very occasionally viable, and "semicarry scout" never viable, though I may be wrong. "Semicarry scout" could be made viable with a numbers tweak, for example by making his ultimate do much more fixed damage at the cost of less % damage. In my opinion, using numbers tweaks to make conceptual changes is like trying to drive in a screw with a hammer - it can work, but it's not likely to work well. In this case, using numbers tweaks to turn Scout into a useful early-midgame hero risks creating an OP hard carry.


By the way, just because a hero is useless without farm doesn't mean he's broken. Sand Wraith is basically useless. He's got one nuke that makes him a decent chaser. Basically no lane presence. Mid game his damage comes from his passive with his ult and he's not useless because he has a passive that makes him tanky. So he doesn't die, but he still doesn't do anything.

But Sand Wraith is a great hero. You HAVE to get farm on him or he doesn't do anything. He has no utility. Scout has utility.

So mang I think balancing with just numbers changes looking good right now. IDK someone prove me wrong or just tell me I'm wrong cause I think S2 has been balancing wrong by not just using -1 cooldown on spell w or +30 damage on nuke.

Originally I had a paragraph about why SW was also conceptually broken, but I deleted it because I didn't want this thread to turn into a SW balance thread. Since you brought it up, though, I might as well make the argument. I think that SW does have a broken concept that requires significant changes; on the other hand I think SW is easier to fix than Scout. I think that a hero that is useless or almost useless without significant amounts of farm (around 9k gold, or in this case Steamboots, HotBL and Mock) is conceptually broken, in that he makes any games he's in less interesting than they would otherwise be.

Historically, I think Spectre/Sand Wraith has been balanced only once. This was when (around 6.45, I think) he was used as part of the Global Strategy along with Zeus (TB) and Furion, in order to gank heroes anywhere across the map, and eventually carry. It was a strong strategy, but it was only used by a few teams and didn't dominate the game. Eventually he fell out of the metagame, until DotA 6.52e, where turtling strategies dominated and Spectre was one of the most OP carries around. Spectre got nerfed, and become completely unused. Somewhere in the HoN beta he was buffed and became completely OP. He got nerfed into the ground, and became useless. Recently, the assist gold change made him OP again. What I'm saying here is that the hero has for years been either useless or OP. This is the biggest indicator of a conceptual problem, one that can't really be fixed by minor changes.

A global teleport, a slow, and a damage bonus for picking off isolated heroes are all ingredients that could make an interesting, fun, balanced ganker/semicarry. Unfortunately, SW is played and balanced around Dispersion and five illusions. A numbers tweak, nerfing his agility, Dispersion and/or ultimate and buffing his Desert's Curse and Desolation, would turn him from a boring Mock/Helm/Heart turtling hard-carry to a fun Nullfire Blade global ganker, but it would have to be a numbers change big enough to change the way the hero is played. Alternatively, Dispersion could be replaced with another skill.

[KARTlK]

The difference is he becomes discovered then forgotten. Underutilized or "figured out".

Anyway thread isn't about sand wraith and you already gave your opinion. Suppose I should add a poll but I'm too lazy.

tl;dr heroes that need fixing with conceptual (not numbers) changes are what. if none say none if some list them.

k. ty.

[JoshPFriends]

any underpowered hero with a good concept can be made into a great hero with some number changes


it is completely mindblowing how they can just shove some heroes under the carpet when they can just tweak them in the slightest bit and make them viable again

[devilesk]

it's completely mindblowing why you supposedly good and knowledgeable players aren't super beta testers. instead you just sit here and complain about S2's lack of balance changes.

[JoshPFriends]

I'm not in the competitors forum because an S2 has a personal grudge against me. I'm in the SBT.

[Wolfrar]

it is completely mindblowing how they can just shove some heroes under the carpet when they can just tweak them in the slightest bit and make them viable again



Have to agree. It would take S2 a 10 MB balance patch that would easily take less then a few days (probably closer to a few hours/an hour) to impliment some of the simple NUMBER changes that have been previous suggested by the likes of JoshP and other competitive players. We would easily see alot more viable heroes, and some of the worthless picks become at bare minimum "situationally viable". Sure, it would need testing and further nerfs/buffs just to check that everything was ok, but I dont see why S2 hasnt released any sort of descent balance patch in the last FEW MONTHS.

@Devilisk From what I know, a fair lot of them are superbeta testers. It seems the message and balance changes still arnt getting through.

[BadaBing]

it's completely mindblowing why you supposedly good and knowledgeable players aren't super beta testers. instead you just sit here and complain about S2's lack of balance changes.

SBT is nothing but glorified bug testing (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12899759#post12899759); just look at every balance change the past 2 months.

Oh wait.

[devilesk]

I'm going to believe that S2 was just waiting for the big tournaments to end and that a big balance patch is coming.

[Zakharov]

any underpowered hero with a good concept can be made into a great hero with some number changes

They could just as easily be made overpowered. Balancing many heroes at the same time requires a lot of testing of the interactions between those heroes. I think the lack of balance changes recently means S2 is doing exactly that.

[devilesk]

Looking at past patch notes it seems like S2 makes a few minor stat changes to a couple heroes every other patch. And then there's maybe one significant balance patch a month where a dozen heroes all get minor changes, mostly number related.

It's been almost two months since a patch like that, but S2 has been doing other things like TMM and adding the shop which is pretty significant. The addition of new heroes has been pretty consistent too.

Although even though there have been changes, I'm not sure if a lot of them have made any real difference. But I guess when you're doing balance changes, staying conservative is a good thing.


S2 should just change every hero and make them look ridiculously OP. This will confuse everyone and it will be a while until people figure out which heroes are truly the most OP in relation to the other heroes.

[Wolfrar]

Looking at past patch notes it seems like S2 makes a few minor stat changes to a couple heroes every other patch. And then there's maybe one significant balance patch a month where a dozen heroes all get minor changes, mostly number related.

It's been almost two months since a patch like that, but S2 has been doing other things like TMM and adding the shop which is pretty significant. The addition of new heroes has been pretty consistent too.

Although even though there have been changes, I'm not sure if a lot of them have made any real difference. But I guess when you're doing balance changes, staying conservative is a good thing.


S2 should just change every hero and make them look ridiculously OP. This will confuse everyone and it will be a while until people figure out which heroes are truly the most OP in relation to the other heroes.

S2 cant do anything wrong in your eyes, can they? If you are one of those S2 devotees, then the C and C forum probably wont be for you.

[Fluxje]

Stats tweaks are most of the time the best way to change a hero.

Basestats, attack animation, movement speed and statsgrowth make or break heroes.

In some cases an entire hero revamp is in order because the original design was flawed.
Think old silencer/spectre/visage of dota.
Think swiftblade, deadwood in HoN.

[devilesk]

S2 cant do anything wrong in your eyes, can they? If you are one of those S2 devotees, then the C and C forum probably wont be for you.
They can, but you guys act like they simply don't care and would just let the competitiveness of the game die out without doing anything. I don't believe this is true. I think they do try, but as with all things, you can satisfy everyone right away. Change takes time.

Also,
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12916478