General and Attack Modifiers

[Drasha]

Version with links to each item and scroll over information: http://www.hondb.com/?modifiers

There are two types of modifiers in this game: general and attack. General Modifiers are the most common and consist of mana burn, chain lightning, maim, and bash. General Modifiers stack with each other but they do not stack with themselves. For example you could have a Thunderclaw and a Charged Hammer, but their %-chance to proc would not stack together - only 1 will proc at a time onattackimpact. You can however stack a Thunderclaw with a Nullfire Blade and proc lightning & mana combustion at the same time.

Attack Modifiers are less common but there are a few of them in the shop now. These items don't stack with each other but you can choose which one you want as the active modifier if you own both items. You can have both attack modifiers and general modifiers; for example, Chain Lightning and a Frostwolf's Skull would stack together. However, you cannot have Frostwolf's Skull's effect and Lifesteal's effect on the same attack. It is a viable tactic to switch your attack modifier on each attack to get multiple effects on a single target and thus by pass the restriction.

(Note: These are now attack modifiers) There is a 3rd type of modifier that I have called an "orb" effect because they are used to orb walk. These modifiers are hero or item abilities that can be toggled on and cost mana. They will not stack with each other nor any Attack Modifiers, but they will stack with General Modifiers.

Exclusive Modifiers

Mana Burn


Nullfire Blade (http://www.hondb.com/?item=nullfire-blade)
Mana Combustion (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=mana-combustion) (Magebane (http://www.hondb.com/?hero=magebane))


Bash


Brutalizer (http://www.hondb.com/?item=brutalizer)
Gore (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=gore) (Pestilence (http://www.hondb.com/?hero=pestilence))
Horned Strike (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=horned-strike) (Rampage (http://www.hondb.com/?hero=rampage))


Chain Lightning


Thunder Claw (http://www.hondb.com/?item=thunderclaw)
Charged Hammer (http://www.hondb.com/?item=charged-hammer)


Searing


Lightbrand
Searing Light
Frozen Light
Dawnbringer
Grimoire of Power



Attack Modifiers


Lifesteal (Hungry Spirit, Whispering Helm, Elder Parasite, Symbol of Rage)
(Exception to this rule is Abyssal Skull's (http://www.hondb.com/?item=abyssal-skull) 15% lifesteal aura that does stack with other lifesteals since it is an aura and not a exclusive modifier)
Frostwolf's Skull (http://www.hondb.com/?item=frostwolfs-skull)
Shield Breaker (http://www.hondb.com/?item=shieldbreaker)
Icebrand (http://www.hondb.com/?item=icebrand)
Frostburn (http://www.hondb.com/?item=frostburn)
Tangle Claw (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=tangle-claw) (Booboo)
Masters Incantation (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=masters-incantation) (Vindicator (http://www.hondb.com/?hero=vindicator))
Webbed Shot (http://www.hondb.com/?ability=webbed-shot) (Arachna (http://www.hondb.com/?hero=arachna))

**For Harkon's Blade behavior, see this thread (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=49099) in the appropriate subsection.

Read This
I made this after reading a post S2Fielding made where he used the terms General and Attack modifiers. In game, the tool tip says Exclusive instead of General, so you should note that if you're reading the tool tips in game.
(http://dev.hondb.com/modifiers)

[Spinewire]

i thought the skull was 15% life steal

[Anghkor]

i thought the skull was 15% life steal

It is.

[Drasha]

It is i checked in the game so you guys are right. I used hucklecats lists of items to make this and it seems his list is wrong as well. Its fixed now.

[Anghkor]

Is it confirmed that all modifiers can stack, as long as they are different types? So for example you could be Madman with a Whispering Helm (15% leech), Hack and Slash (slow), a Nullfire Blade (Mana Burn), a Brutalizer (Bash), a Charged Hammer (Chain Lightning) and a Shield Breaker (Armor reduction). While it may not be practical, you're saying it's possible to get all of this and it works together?

Also, you should note that since Abysmal Skull is an Aura, the leech stacks with all other modifiers regardless of type.

[Drasha]

yes you can get all of those items to stack. i am not sure on the abysmal skull stacking with other life stealing i will try and test it.


Remember, there's two categories. Attack modifiers, and general modifiers. General modifiers of the same type do not stack, but ones of different types can stack with eachother (life steal and mana combustion, for example). Attack modifiers, since they do something a bit more unique and you may want different ones active for different situations, don't stack, instead you can choose which attack modifier is active.

Generally speaking, chance to proc stuff are general modifiers. So thunderclaw and charged hammer won't stack with eachother (or with themselves) but will stack with brutalizer just fine.

Currently, shieldbreaker and frostwolf's skull are the only items in the "attack modifier" category. That means charged hammer or hack and slash would work with Booboo. For the most part, "chance to proc" items are general modifiers, not attack modifiers. We tried to keep attack modifiers as things that fit these two categories:
1. Modified your attack on a consistent basis (no chance to proc)
2. Did something "special" which could not be prioritized

For example, if you have two life steal items, it's really easy for us to give priority to the higher life steal item and make the lower one inactive. But if you have a shield breaker and a frostwolf skull.. not so much. Sometimes you'd want the armor debuff from shield breaker, sometimes you'd want the movement speed slow from frostwolf's skull. For that reason, these types of things are attack modifiers and you can switch between them. Slither's second ability is also an attack modifier.

[Anghkor]

It does, I've already tested it. It's the same as Vlad's from DotA, and it says it stacks in the tooltip.

[Drasha]

ok its changed :)

[TurpinoS]

So, antimage can now get any lifesteal ? thats schweet !!

[lostgoat]

Another question.

Do crits stack properly on ranged heroes with minibash, etc? I can't test this atm. if no one responds i guess i'll test it tonight.

[xahxah]

This should be removed. Whoever thought this would be a great idea, well... let's just say it is not.



Moon Queen is ABUSRDLY overpowered with this. She has the ability to go both Lifesteal/Mana Burn (Nullfire) early on and completely gank the whole map to death.

[_Archangel_]

Arachna's slow stacks fine with Shieldbreaker fine as far as I could tell. Drow with Deso who can slow and reduce your armor at the same time! Imba! Gonna abuse the hell out of this :D

[SyKot]

Why are Frostwulf and Shieldbreaker unstackable? Any design choice?

[Elmoman]

A better question: How about some better tooltips, so that this is readable in the game?

[Drasha]

Made a new thread about better tooltips since it would be off topic for this thread.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=39424#post39424

[ToKo]

So i can have life steal, mana burn and chain lighting at the same time and all of then working?

[NooN1]

No, u can only have 1 general and one attack modifier.

[Dergeist]

No, u can only have 1 general and one attack modifier.

This would make much more sense to me. Things would get a little too crazy with that many orb effects.

[dan121]

No, u can only have 1 general and one attack modifier.

I've had two different general and it worked.

[Drasha]

No, u can only have 1 general and one attack modifier.

you are 100% wrong what i posted is 100% correct you can have lifestealing and bash and mana combustion if you want. you can however only have one attack modifier active at one time not that it matter since if you want both and your smart you can switch of between them after each attack and keep both of them up.

if you read all of the posts in this thread i have a quote from a dev saying how it works that supports me.

[NooN1]

O.o But in DotA its like I said. Does this mean I can steal life, maim and burn mana with just one hit?!

[Drasha]

Yes they felt that how it was in dota was a limitation of the game engine so they changed if for HoN. If you read my initial post it outlines every thing you can do. If its not clear let me know i can try to make it clearer. And yes you can have all of those.

[Mudkipz1]

lololololol didnt we cover this like years ago?

[Azariah]

This is sort of unrelated, but someone here must have a quick answer. Do movement modifiers all stack? Like having 5 pairs of boots?

Also, what about percentage boosts (+30% attack speed) versus numerical bonuses (+35 attack). Any stacking issues here?

[Drasha]

lololololol didnt we cover this like years ago?
The player base has been growing rapidly and this feature is one of the few things that changed from dota helping new dota players adjust is a good thing.


This is sort of unrelated, but someone here must have a quick answer. Do movement modifiers all stack? Like having 5 pairs of boots?

Also, what about percentage boosts (+30% attack speed) versus numerical bonuses (+35 attack). Any stacking issues here?

Boots do not stack with boots but some thing like slash will stack with boots for example you could have post haste and slash and slash would increase your speed but post haste and enhanced marcher will only give you the movement speed of posthaste.

I can't find any thing that gives +30% attack speed tell me what does and i will test it for you.

[SWARM_THEM]

Yes they felt that how it was in dota was a limitation of the game engine so they changed if for HoN. If you read my initial post it outlines every thing you can do. If its not clear let me know i can try to make it clearer. And yes you can have all of those.
so the multiple "orb effects" concept is actually intentional in HoN? this is going to take some getting used to. better make sure those enemy carries don't get their items!

[Azariah]

I can't find any thing that gives +30% attack speed tell me what does and i will test it for you.

It could be a typo, but the 'List of Items' thread (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=521) says that Hellflower is +30% Attack Speed. How does this stack with Warped Cleft? (for example)

[Drasha]

The tool tip in game says +30 attack speed so its a typo.

[Azariah]

Danke!

[Urizen]

Moon Queen is ABUSRDLY overpowered with this. She has the ability to go both Lifesteal/Mana Burn (Nullfire) early on and completely gank the whole map to death.

should make the glaives not apply any modifers to subsequent targets,
only the initial

[_23Chxt]

1:in DOTA, moon queen only modifier aplly is the life steal, here, this can be set too!
2:the stacking of orbs is overpowered!! it has to be nerfed
3:and put the frozen hit, in ranged, as a non orb too

[Rengan]

Going by tooltips and dota uses:

Cleave does not factor as either general or exclusive modifier. It also stacks with itself.

Halberd's chance to do damage is also neither modifier, but can't proc off itself. For example, you hit for 100 damage and proc 40 more, but cannot proc another 40 from that.


Savage mace is the one with chance to stun for 1 second, right? That factos as neither as well, but doesn't stack with other bashing properties. THAT ALSO INCLUDES SKILLS. A pestilance getting savage mace, for example, would be a complete waste. Also, as far as I can tell in this game, stuns and ministuns are not differentiated. Therefore, getting the MKB equivalent of this game (the one made with 2 halbers and the secret shop item that stuns for .1 seconds) would not stack. In retrospect, this actually might be a general modifier...

[Drasha]

Going by tooltips and dota uses:

Cleave does not factor as either general or exclusive modifier. It also stacks with itself.

Halberd's chance to do damage is also neither modifier, but can't proc off itself. For example, you hit for 100 damage and proc 40 more, but cannot proc another 40 from that.


Savage mace is the one with chance to stun for 1 second, right? That factos as neither as well, but doesn't stack with other bashing properties. THAT ALSO INCLUDES SKILLS. A pestilance getting savage mace, for example, would be a complete waste. Also, as far as I can tell in this game, stuns and ministuns are not differentiated. Therefore, getting the MKB equivalent of this game (the one made with 2 halbers and the secret shop item that stuns for .1 seconds) would not stack. In retrospect, this actually might be a general modifier...

Halberd might actually be an exclusive(general) modifier it depends if having two halberds gives you a better chance to proc the effect. So far i have found no reasonable way to test this :( the item that gives the 1.1 second stun is Brutalizer i am not sure that it actually is an exclusive modifier any more since i think having more then one will increase your chance but you can't stun more then once every 2 seconds. Savage mace is the one that can interupt channling.

http://honwiki.net/wiki/Exclusive_modifier
I moved this information over to the wiki and put all of the items into their detabase.

[Invoker1]

i think this needs to be changed, the items were balanced with the fact they cant be used together in mind. i just got satanic and deso on arachna, doesnt seem very fair

[FiNGERS]

Slither's toxicity is an attack modifier and shouldn't stack with Frostwulf or Shield breaker.

[Tryptophan]

Slither's toxicity is an attack modifier and shouldn't stack with Frostwulf or Shield breaker.

You know that this thread is basically discussing how attack modifiers of different types allow them to stack, right?

And here you come saying that because X is an attack modifier it shouldn't stack with attack modifiers Y and Z -.- It does make sense for Frostwulf because they're both slows but Shield Breaker is armor desolation and removes armor and doesn't slow.

[Habile]

I think you're missing something, Tryptophan, or maybe I am. From what I can see, this thread shows at least two different sorts of modifiers: General, and Attack. It's been said that General Modifiers stack with all other modifiers except themselves. Attack Modifiers do NOT stack with other Attack Modifiers. So, if Toxicity is an Attack Modifier, then from what I believe is shown here, it does not stack with either Frostwulf, or Shield Breaker, which are two other Attack Modifiers. FiNGERS was not saying that it shouldn't stack with any of the General Modifiers, which I believe you are refering to.

[Drasha]

Habile is correct this thread is slightly out of date i have moved to keeping the wiki entries on this correct i added the links to the bottom of the post.

All of these will not stack with each other.


Shield Breaker (http://honwiki.net/wiki/Shield_Breaker)
Frostwolf's Skull (http://honwiki.net/wiki/Frostwolf%27s_Skull)
Slither's venom (http://honwiki.net/wiki/Slither)
BooBoo's Tangle Claw (http://honwiki.net/wiki/Wildsoul)
Accursed's Sear (http://honwiki.net/wiki/Accursed)

It's important to note that you can switch witch one of these is active and that they all apply a debuff to the target. For example slither's venom lasts 7 seconds so after you attack the target once and its on them you could switch shieldbreaker for the next attack and add its debuff witch lasts 5 seconds on the next attack out could change to frost wolfs skull and have that debuff on them witch lasts 3 seconds. its a lot of work but if you micro it you can keep them all up.

One attack will not add them all at once but each attack can add a difrent one.

[aznduk]

isn't it kinda imbalanced to let these modifiers stack though?

[Kien2]

isn't it kinda imbalanced to let these modifiers stack though?
No, it's not imbalanced

[Drasha]

isn't it kinda imbalanced to let these modifiers stack though?

every single player can use these items its not like they went ok only blacksmith can have more then one orb stack. go play the game if you find an instance where 2 orbs stacking makes some one to powerful make a thread about it.

[zp3dd4]

try luna, diffusal + lifesteal going to manta + lifesteal

[ToKo]

well i tested that, and you can have lifeleech, armor break, bash, chain lightning and mana burn and slow at the same time if you want and all of then working
and other thing
if you do 2 iten with bash, the cd will be the same, but the chance will be increment

[ToKo]

oh, and other thing, with you do mkb( i dont know the name on hon) with luna, all the targets will be hited by ministuns

[damelon]

If this is all true with stacking then heroes need re-balancing. Especially heroes with their attacks modified to begin with such as Arachna and Anti-Mage.

[Drasha]

arachnas slow is not an exclusive modifier or an attack modifier. Magebane has an exclusive modifier not an attack modifier.

[Marijuana]

No, u can only have 1 general and one attack modifier.

Why do you bother with grammar if you abbreviate "you" to "u"? Just curious.

[NightCloak]

I can't imagine how its imbalanced.

Original DotA had that limitation in there and everyone got used to the idea of "speccing" the hero to that orb.

Now we can lifeleech, armor break, bash, chain lightning and mana burn someone's arse in 1 shot!

Its only imbalanced if you allow yourself to remain limited to a different games rules. This is not DotA. This is similiar, but its not the same game.

I wish I had known this a few games ago...

[ToKo]

its not imbalanced, because until u get money for lifeleech, armor break, bash, chain lightning and mana burn the game is allready over
u should choose the best orb for your hero, an then if u have time and money do another one
sometimes its better just do your normal build and dont try to change too much
it stays cool a hero with 3,4 orbs. one time i did a chronos with lifeleech, bash, chain lighthing and mana burn, but i just could do it because the game had something like 70,80 min and was easy mode

[dabounca]

The bash wouldn't have stacked with his natural one though yeh?

[Drasha]

The bash wouldn't have stacked with his natural one though yeh?

Thats one of the technical things i sort of left out bash will stack with the passive but its diminishing you will have a 25% chance to bash and if that fails you will have another 25% chance from the item however after you bash both the item and the ability will go on cooldown for the 2 seconds.

[Shorony]

It's important to note that you can switch witch one of these is active and that they all apply a debuff to the target. For example slither's venom lasts 7 seconds so after you attack the target once and its on them you could switch shieldbreaker for the next attack and add its debuff witch lasts 5 seconds on the next attack out could change to frost wolfs skull and have that debuff on them witch lasts 3 seconds. its a lot of work but if you micro it you can keep them all up.

One attack will not add them all at once but each attack can add a difrent one.

How did you switch ? Is it automatic for example during the 7 sec of slither venom other hit will use frostwolf (and how to know which one will be first to be use etc ..?) ? Or do we need to do something ?

[Drasha]

There are little icons for them bottom left corner of the screen above the mini map their are also hot keys for them. O and if your going to move my thread at least sticky it :P

[ElementUser]

Stickied AND touched the guide up a little bit (fixed lots of typos as well) *cough*

[Drasha]

Stickied AND touched the guide up a little bit (fixed lots of typos as well) *cough*

Thanks a bunch it looks a lot better now :)

[boNie]

last time i say them all stack... lol

[FilionTeras]

does mana burn improves your damage (one/half point per mana burnt) as it was in dota?

[foRRest_]

Stacking different type of orbs is awesome thing :D
Carry hero in HoN are even more powerfull than in Dota, they can farm faster and game can be finished as fast is possible.
imo Charged Hammer is pure awesomness for any agi hero :P

[Nark0Punk]

Pls make a orb efect the 1st skill of arcna i soo imba slow + manaburn

[Nark0Punk]

BY the way arcna is the most imbalaced hero with madmam.
http://<a href=

[Nark0Punk]

BY the way arcna is the most imbalaced hero with madmam.
http://www.honage.net/sig/Nark0Punk/chronos/1/ ('http://www.honage.net/ladder/#player:Nark0Punk')

[__ProdigY]

Hey guys just a quick question.
Will cripple work with Chrono's Bash?

[Drasha]

Yes.

[Twin133]

A friend of mine was playing Andromeda with Hack and Slash, Shieldbreaker, steam boots, whispering helm, and soulscream ring. For some reason, Hack and Slash's attack modifier (Chance to proc) does not stack with Shieldbreaker's armor reduction while attacking creeps (or heroes...).

However, if attacking with Hack and Slash with Shieldbreaker dropped, then picking up Shieldbreaker and attacking again gives both modifiers on the creep.

It seems like Shieldbreaker's modifier cancels Hack and Slash's, which in accord with the two modifier type rules (and a previous post about Madman) shouldn't happen.

It may be a bug, or simply a problem with Andromeda. Just letting the forum know.

-Twin133

[l24zl3l]

I'd say that stacking that many attack modifiers can get a bit unbalanced late game on carry heroes. For example, originally, in DotA, PotM would have to decide between running chain lightning or lifesteal. The former would give better farming ability and damage while sacrificing the ability to stay in battle granted by the latter. This "limitation" meant that players would have to make choices depending on the hero matchup. However, giving PotM the ability to get both effects would make her far more dangerous, given that she would then be able to zap you for massive amounts of damage and heal herself at the same time. Other heroes I can think of that this applies to would be Drow (Arachna), where she would be able to lifesteal even with her arrow effect active, meaning that she could devastate any hero that went against her, given the amount of reduction to both movement and attack speed. I think that in DotA, the limitation of the amount of attack modifiers a hero could carry was quite intentional and not a result of the limitations of the War3 engine. It forced players to make decisions about how to play their hero that best countered the enemy lineup and acted to balance carries like Drow and Clinkz. Just imagine what a Clinkz would have been able to do with lifesteal, desolator, chain lightning, feedback, and maim all stacked on top of strafe and an easy +40 damage from fire arrows. I acknowledge the fact that HoN is indeed a different game from DotA but in my opinion, the ability to stack multiple attack modifiers can unbalance the game greatly.

[DANAYO]

Geometer's Bane?

[Drasha]

A friend of mine was playing Andromeda with Hack and Slash, Shieldbreaker, steam boots, whispering helm, and soulscream ring. For some reason, Hack and Slash's attack modifier (Chance to proc) does not stack with Shieldbreaker's armor reduction while attacking creeps (or heroes...).

However, if attacking with Hack and Slash with Shieldbreaker dropped, then picking up Shieldbreaker and attacking again gives both modifiers on the creep.

It seems like Shieldbreaker's modifier cancels Hack and Slash's, which in accord with the two modifier type rules (and a previous post about Madman) shouldn't happen.

It may be a bug, or simply a problem with Andromeda. Just letting the forum know.

-Twin133
You were just vary unlucky with the rng of how hack works.


Geometer's Bane?
It no longer has mana burn so its removed from the list.

[Headstrong]

i think you shuold go with dota orbs and point boosters cause some heros become to strong with this but thats just my thoughts on the matter

[IBeastI]

I do hope it's just a bug... :)

[perseusprime]

I think that in DotA, the limitation of the amount of attack modifiers a hero could carry was quite intentional and not a result of the limitations of the War3 engine.

It was intentional in that the War3 engine did not allow it, so heroes were balanced in that limitation. In HoN, heroes are balanced without that limitation.


Just imagine what a Clinkz would have been able to do with lifesteal, desolator, chain lightning, feedback, and maim all stacked on top of strafe and an easy +40 damage from fire arrows.

In a game where Clinkz was able to farm the gold for those items, it would either be a very balanced game that went on for hours and hours, or would have been long over as Clinkz was racking up kills. In the first case, all the heroes would be equally uber-geared, so it would be a matter or strategy and timing. In the latter case, the game is over and if the team isn't conceding, he would just continue to rack up more kills (which he would have done anyway).

[Firewolx]

Just wondering, how does crit stacking work?

[OGSagat]

With PREDATOR, does his normal 7% Life steal ability STACK with say the Satanic 25% lifesteal? So every hit he heals 25% of the damage, then on top of that 7% of their remaining health?

That works?

And so it looks like I can have Basher, Satanic, Null and Chain Lighting ALL going at the same time, and they all work in ADDITION to my normal ability of 7% life steal of remaining health.

Predator is a mother! WOW hes super tough.

Thank you in advance.

[ElementUser]

With PREDATOR, does his normal 7% Life steal ability STACK with say the Satanic 25% lifesteal? So every hit he heals 25% of the damage, then on top of that 7% of their remaining health?

That works?

And so it looks like I can have Basher, Satanic, Null and Chain Lighting ALL going at the same time, and they all work in ADDITION to my normal ability of 7% life steal of remaining health.

Yes, Predator's lifesteal is unique and will stack with everything else.

And yes. However, Predator is still a pretty bad hero in this game (no +attackspeed from his magic immunity skill unlike Naix, and his ultimate cooldown is still very high)

[OGSagat]

He kind of plays like NAIX and Spirit Breaker.

I would say he is more like Spirit Breaker how he plays. I think hes upper middle tier or top tier. Hes really good early game in a lane with a disabler on your team.

And when combined with Tempest, he is downright ridiculous. He hops in the middle of the Tempest ult, he does his Ult, and that is practically GG.

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. You are a good person for helping noobs like me.

[Ragnarok17]

Moon Queen is ABUSRDLY overpowered with this. She has the ability to go both Lifesteal/Mana Burn (Nullfire) early on and completely gank the whole map to death.

Yes you are right. She has been unchanged (or at least for the most part) since DotA. However, they did NOT account for the fact that she can now use many attack/general modifiers in HoN that she could NOT in DotA. Being able to hit more than one unit at once only multiplies her new strengths.


Good list, helpful too :).


Predator is pretty bad? Now I value your opinion, and may be he is bad. But one thing that's definite is that he can really rape lategame XD. In pubs, at least.

Yeah Predator's 7% lifesteal... stack that with 25% from Helm of Rage and 15% Absyull Skull. That's 40% plus his 7%'s unique life steal. Activate Helm of Rage... then you get 165% lifesteal along with his 7% XD.

[song_tinh]

I don't agree with Orb Effect stack together. That is too imba for Carrier Heroes

Example: Arachna with Hack and Slash (Cheap Item) + Chain Lighting (Cheap Item) will have imba slow from HnS + Skill 1 and Nuke Damage from Chain Lighting :eek:

Magebane with Hack And Slash easy to kill every heroes with Slow + Mana Burn and Blink

I think HoN must have Orb Effect same DotA, don't split them to General and Exclusive Modifier :mad:

[Kwaurtz]

I don't agree with Orb Effect stack together. That is too imba for Carrier Heroes

Example: Arachna with Hack and Slash (Cheap Item) + Chain Lighting (Cheap Item) will have imba slow from HnS + Skill 1 and Nuke Damage from Chain Lighting :eek:

Magebane with Hack And Slash easy to kill every heroes with Slow + Mana Burn and Blink

I think HoN must have Orb Effect same DotA, don't split them to General and Exclusive Modifier :mad:

Hack and Slash is a waste of item on Arachna. The slows do not stack additively either. So the slow is a bit exaggerated on your end. The stacking of orb effects is a nice change. Part of the reason that I was lead to believe that orb effects didn't stack on wc3 was because of the engine.

[Taimaishu]

anything that would cause Abyssal Skull to not work on Arachna? tried picking up and dropping the item, and turning on and off autocast web shot.

had no other "orb" effect items on Arachna

[Toryama]

Abyss Skull only works on melee units.

I like orbs stacking. It was really annoying on some characters with orbs in Dota to not be able to utilize other orbs. Mage bane is sexy with frostwolf <3.

[Retarderous]

Using hungry spirit and armor breaker stacked when I used arachna aand when I checked it never said life steal was an orb.

[Metal]

harkon's blade is general or attack modifier?

[Drasha]

harkon's blade is general or attack modifier?
Harkon's Blade is not a general or attack modifier. It works like arachnas slow and will stack with any thing.

[Habile]

The maims from 'Hack and Slash' and 'Hack' use different modifiers, and therefore can be stacked.

Chonos's and Pestilence's bashes are also not exclusive modifiers. They work somewhat independently from Brutalizer's bash.

There are also many other exclusive modifiers, e.g., Movespeed, Movespeed Multipliers, Magic Armor, and Mana Battery to name a few.

[Fiftynlz]

This should be removed. Whoever thought this would be a great idea, well... let's just say it is not.



Moon Queen is ABUSRDLY overpowered with this. She has the ability to go both Lifesteal/Mana Burn (Nullfire) early on and completely gank the whole map to death.

Only the lifesteal affects the bounces. The rest of the orbs (shieldbreaker, nullfire, chainlightning, maim) only works on the primary target.

Didn't check with frostwolf skull though.

[ElementUser]

Only the lifesteal affects the bounces. The rest of the orbs (shieldbreaker, nullfire, chainlightning, maim) only works on the primary target.

Didn't check with frostwolf skull though.

Actually, you don't lifesteal from each additional bounce.

[LadyCaca]

Firewolx asked a question on the last page which I am also interested in. How does crit stacking work?

[ElementUser]

Firewolx asked a question on the last page which I am also interested in. How does crit stacking work?

Each critical will still have their own individual chance to critical. However, the overall critical chance will increase diminishingly. So you'll never reach 100% critical by stacking Riftshards, even if you had 3x more item slots.

Unconfirmed, but if both criticals activate at the same time, the higher critical should override (rather than being the most recently acquired like in DotA).

[LadyCaca]

Makes sense. Thank you.

[Duran]

I don't know if this has been answered but since you can Attack Modifier swap, is it possible to do that on maybe BooBoo? Can you swap out Frost with Tangle whenever you want?

[Drasha]

I don't know if this has been answered but since you can Attack Modifier swap, is it possible to do that on maybe BooBoo? Can you swap out Frost with Tangle whenever you want?
Yes you could switch from Tangle Claw to Frostwolf's Skull on booboo how ever its a bad item on him because he does not benefit from stats like str.

[Rejusu]

I have to say that my initial thought when I started playing (and judging from this thread I'm not the only one) that stacking orbs would change the balance quite significantly. After playing though... yeah it's not made that much of a difference. Yes, you can stack multiples but with most of the orb granting items bar lifesteal being relatively expensive most heroes never generally get that many. I find that at most I've ended up with maybe one extra orb effect in a game than I would playing DotA and normally one of those orbs is LS. Generally it's just not that worthwhile stacking orbs as there's better items you could be getting. In my opinion most heroes only gain significant benefit from having just the one or two anyway.

Still there are always going to be some people that don't understand that some things just don't stack. Like that Scout I saw once with the two stygians.

[karaflix]

i just noticed... they stack. all of them. you can gave mana combustion, lifesteal and -armor all in one hero. is this intended? should i stop plying hon right now?

[Desirable]

Intended.

HoN does not have "orbs" like in DotA. Rather, they are "modifiers" with some of them being "attack modifiers" which are exclusive such as Frostwolf Skull and Shieldbreaker.

Those two do not stack with each other.

[karaflix]

only those two? this does not seem right....

[Desirable]

only those two? this does not seem right....
In what way?

[Workdawg]

This should clear things up for you...
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=2044

[`_____`]

only those two? this does not seem right....

think of it this way, say you have the choice between:

choice a; Hack + Nullfire blade

choice b; Abyssal Skull + Helm of Black Legion

Pestilence X chooses A and Pestilence Y chooses B

both are lvl 11

Who wins?

Easily Pestilence Y.

Moral here? Just because you can have a ton of dirty attack modifiers doesn't mean you want to. Survivability > DPS (in most cases)

[karaflix]

thanks

Desirable, maybe it's just that I am used to them not stacking because of the war3 engine. Because of that it seems overpowered to me....

[karaflix]

think of it this way, say you have the choice between:

choice a; Hack + Nullfire blade

choice b; Abyssal Skull + Helm of Black Legion

Pestilence X chooses A and Pestilence Y chooses B

both are lvl 11

Who wins?

Easily Pestilence Y.

Moral here? Just because you can have a ton of dirty attack modifiers doesn't mean you want to. Survivability > DPS (in most cases)

maybe but that's not the point. i don't mind 1v1 battles. but a magebane that lifesteals without abyssal skull and reduces the armor, kinda rocked my world

[Desirable]

thanks

Desirable, maybe it's just that I am used to them not stacking because of the war3 engine. Because of that it seems overpowered to me....
Yep.

Although you can stack certain attack modifiers, people would rather get dmg or survivability items instead because the benefits outweigh the potential to gain another "orb".

HoN allows you to explore both options. :)

[HONYoda]

Intended.

HoN does not have "orbs" like in DotA. Rather, they are "attack modifiers" with some of them being "exclusive attack modifiers" such as Frostwolf Skull and Shieldbreaker.

Those two do not stack with each other.

I built a Shieldbreaker on Slither the other night (yeah, dumb) and it did not stack with his poison attack.

Should it?


Edit: Bah crap, I just read that link. That'll teach me for noobing it up.

[karaflix]

No, they are both attack modifiers - similar to dota's buff placers. Workdawg's link is very enlightening. Desirable, thanks for you answers :)

[Desirable]

I built a Shieldbreaker on Slither the other night (yeah, dumb) and it did not stack with his poison attack.

Should it?


Edit: Bah crap, I just read that link. That'll teach me for noobing it up.
Sorry if my post was unclear. I edited it for better rewording now.

Shieldbreaker and Slither's Toxicity are "attack modifiers". Hence, they are exclusive and do not stack with each other.

It is mentioned in the tooltip of both Shieldbreaker and Toxicity as well. :)

[ElementUser]

Merged with the guide

[TrueTom]

Just wanna weigh in here.
First off, the ability to stack general modifiers is bad. Why? Because it takes alot of the fun out of the game. The "speccing" and picking items is however not as limited as in DotA. In my opinion, it should be. But this isn't DotA, it's HoN and they seem to want it this way. Just saying I'm on of those who doesn't agree since it causes balance issues when hereos are taken from DotA and are not beeing adjusted, rendering unbalance in heroes not intended. Some abilties were given to some hereos due to the fact that Icefrog knew some items wouldn't stack, when S2 copies the hero without that limitation, unbalance is achived.

That's neither here nor there.

However, as far as I understand attack modifications shouldn't stack with eachother. Only items are frostwolf and shieldbreaker. The argument and reason for this is that every attack gives the modification. (Hence not a procc chance, which general are) There seems to be some inconsistency here tho.
Magmus volcanic touch along with slithers attack is concidered attack modifications, since they occur at every attack.

My question is this; why doesn't this apply to all hero abilities that have 100% to occur and also follows the argument of "changing the attack" Examples here are Arachnas Web-shot, Antimages mana drains or any other none-proccable, attack changing ability? Why is slithers posion different from arachnas?

[awayish`]

Why are Frostwulf and Shieldbreaker unstackable? Any design choice?

they are debuff placers i think. frostwolf's chill and shield breaker's - armor are both debuffs, with little icons

[Shairkon]

Even if they're called different, (Attack modifiers, Orb effects and Exclusive modifiers), everyone gets the general idea of what they do and how they can be stacked. It's not that I've been playing DotA for over 5 years now, but they seriously unbalance the game. Having 3 of those stacked on an agility hero :valk::nigh::chro::mage: is OP compared to a poor-piss intel hero :tort::temp::poll::thun: that may cast all of the 3 skills and 1 ultimate when hunted 1 v 1 and then simply run/try to avoid getting killed, which would be close to impossible if unassisted.
What I'm trying to say is: choose only one morph attack, 1 aura, and stick to those, don't let them all stack, it unbalances the game. I know for sure I'm not the only one thinking like this or similar.

[Habile]

Even if they're called different, (Attack modifiers, Orb effects and Exclusive modifiers), everyone gets the general idea of what they do and how they can be stacked. It's not that I've been playing DotA for over 5 years now, but they seriously unbalance the game. Having 3 of those stacked on an agility hero :valk::nigh::chro::mage: is OP compared to a poor-piss intel hero :tort::temp::poll::thun: that may cast all of the 3 skills and 1 ultimate when hunted 1 v 1 and then simply run/try to avoid getting killed, which would be close to impossible if unassisted.
What I'm trying to say is: choose only one morph attack, 1 aura, and stick to those, don't let them all stack, it unbalances the game. I know for sure I'm not the only one thinking like this or similar.


You do realize you're comparing fed agility heroes against "poor-piss" intel in 1v1 situations? And hey, what if you were to even out the items and give the intel heroes some nice items too? Totem of Kuldra, Resto Stone, and Frostfield perhaps?

You're just throwing out some absurd situations which should never happen and calling "OP".

[Drasha]

Habile you can't argue with them and it does not really matter what they think since it won't be changed.

[Habile]

Habile you can't argue with them and it does not really matter what they think since it won't be changed.

Not exactly arguing about the modifiers. More along the lines of his argument itself.

Anyway, as one of the devs, Idejder I believe, had mentioned at one point, they were planning on some changes with a number of the modifiers. Mostly the cast on-attack abilities and items, and the attack modifiers as far as I can remember.

[Shairkon]

Drasha, no one was or is arguing "with them"; you could really lose the superiority "tone" since it shows nothing but immaturity and arrogance and is totally uncalled for.
I was simply trying to put something out for debate and discussion, not rip on the game, developers or anyone else who put hard work in it.
The "advanced" orb stacking, if I may call it that, only encourages people to use their in game skills less and less to win a game. Farm, get the recommended items and some more, right click an enemy hero, kill.
I must admit I'm exagerating a bit, but the point would be the same.
The situations I was talking about in the previous post were to be considered in a 5 v 5 game. When you're being hunted/ganked/chased on the map by one enemy hero, it's a one on one, not a team fight. (Unless you're lucky and some team members are very close to you).
Example: you get to the rune spot alone to check for runes, magebane is there, 3 orb effects stacked up, you're dead in 8 hits (with a good IAS, that'll take no more than 5 seconds), before you even get to attempt to retreat. (I'm talking about lategame, obviously, not about level 10-14 ~)
This is all "playing on paper" and I hate doing that, but I see myself forced to, since a lot of people don't understand the difference between balance and "whoa, all orb effects work, that's shiznit!" *sigh*

[Drasha]

i can see why you wanted to argue his argument Habile. The exclusive modifiers are unlikely to change any time soon but idejders change to cast on attack abilities are meh.

[Nytemair]

This should be removed. Whoever thought this would be a great idea, well... let's just say it is not.



Moon Queen is ABUSRDLY overpowered with this. She has the ability to go both Lifesteal/Mana Burn (Nullfire) early on and completely gank the whole map to death.

As far as i know, MQ's bounce attack no longer applies orbs to secondary targets, FA's does though.... /nerf

[TreeHorse]

Drasha,

Chronos bash?

[Drasha]

Drasha,

Chronos bash?
they stack how ever you don't gain charges on chronos bash if the target it stunned.

[FTQ`]

so what u mean is arachna cant use shield breaker with his webb shot????????????????????????????

[Drasha]

she can't apply both debuffs on the same attack so yes. you can how ever do a normal attack to get the shield breaker debuff then use web shot for the slow.

[nejdu]

Will harkon's stack with frostwolf skull or shieldbraker?

[Drasha]

Will harkon's stack with frostwolf skull or shieldbraker?
nope

[nejdu]

nope
ty :)

[ElementUser]

Updated for 0.3.4.1

[MintPanda1]

Just to seek come clarification on these strange claims:

Do attack modifiers apply differently to ranged and melee heroes? Which are the general modifiers in your list (you did not list frostwoulf as an exclusive modifier)?

Does harkons (togglabe, "orb") stack with lifesteal and other attack modifiers (frostburn) both on melee and ranged heroes?

[ElementUser]

Updated again for Harkon's Blade. See the other thread for that, as it gives a much clearer explanation for its interaction.

Frostwolf is in Attack Modifiers. See the note in red below, as Attack Modifiers is synonymous with Exclusive Modifiers. Frostwolf Skull is there btw.

Yes, it does, with a few exceptions. Behavior for ranged & melee are the same for all attack modifiers, so don't confuse yourself with old DotA mechanics. Once again, see the other thread (it's linked in this thread under Harkon's Blade) :)

[darko11]

does aby skull still stack with frostburn?

i don't see this game changing TOO MUCH (except for ranged carries) if it does, and that's a good thing.

[ElementUser]

Yes, Frostburn doesn't provide any auras.

[darko11]

Yes, Frostburn doesn't provide any auras.
sweet, my NH build is intact, except with more teamplay in mind :> (replace WH with AbSkull)

[Prays4u]

So lifesteal doesn't stack with things like webshot anymore?

[r1g0]

Yes, Frostburn doesn't provide any auras.

i read this thread, and i tried it with wildsoul, im not sure, but it looked like didnt work,i tried :HackNSlash:+:AbyssalSkull:, but i didn't get the life-steal, is it a bug?? or is it meant?? cuz if its a bug, pls fix it,maybe... MAYBE i'm not watching my life bar close enough, but i'm completely sure at least the visual effect of life-steal isn't working

[ElementUser]

Wildsoul has to be in melee form to get the lifesteal effect from the aura of Abyssal Skull

[r1g0]

Wildsoul has to be in melee form to get the lifesteal effect from the aura of Abyssal Skull

:O, thx, seems really weird to me though, whats the reason?? is it the same for other ranged heroes?? (no lifesteal with aura)

[ElementUser]

Yes.

Reason is because that's what the item port of Abyssal Skull (Vladmir's Offering) was based on

[Esteban]

(Note: These are now attack modifiers) There is a 3rd type of modifier that I have called an "orb" effect because they are used to orb walk. These modifiers are hero or item abilities that can be toggled on and cost mana. They will not stack with each other nor any Attack Modifiers, but they will stack with General Modifiers.


Lifesteal stacks with webbed shot and incantation, i just tested it but the note I quoted above says it does not since "orb" effects do not stack with any attack modifiers. From my tests, "orb" effects do not stack with any "attack modifier" except lifesteal.

I think you have things in the wrong category, or may need a 3rd category, or need a different explanation of how things stack here.

[ElementUser]

It doesn't stack with lifesteal - test better.

[Sku1l]

Maybe add a life steal exception (next to abysal skull) for dampeer's life leach aura

[Esteban]

It doesn't stack with lifesteal - test better.

Practide mode, ap, pick arachna spawn a sandwraith, buy whispering helm for arachna, use autocast orb.

First of all, it shows the red trails leading to the life stealing hero. Second it heals you, third, When I click the enemy hero, it shows webbed applied to him.

why don't you actually test it before you tell me to test better. If the above isn't what's intended then its a bug or this guide is wrong

[Jotain]

Practide mode, ap, pick arachna spawn a sandwraith, buy whispering helm for arachna, use autocast orb.

First of all, it shows the red trails leading to the life stealing hero. Second it heals you, third, When I click the enemy hero, it shows webbed applied to him.

why don't you actually test it before you tell me to test better. If the above isn't what's intended then its a bug or this guide is wrong

What level was your arachna? Just tested it with practise mode, gave her whispering helm and at level 1 she was gaining health thanks to web shot cooldown. But when i leveled her up to 25 she was using webbed shot every attack and thus not gaining any health.

E: Animation was visible, but iirc thats a known bug and has been like that since beta

[Esteban]

I guess the bug is the visual then. Was quite convincing, although something else was healing me from the dissipate damage.

[ElementUser]

The problem is I don't even see the visuals, so I don't know what you guys are doing to be able to see the red streaks.

Also I do test myself, hence why I told you to test better :)

[Vahn]

I see the visuals! :( Doesn't heal on attack though.

[TheMadman]

Are you sure you were web shotting non-mod tester?

Edit: Tested, animation/sound for life steal played but I didn't get hp back. Web shot overrode the lifesteal.

[Esteban]

Yea I think the bug is just visual. Kinda weird that the other guy doesn't see it though.

[ElementUser]

Added the Searing modifier

[TartossXXX]

Hate to get put in the dumpster by you or Macro EU but Toxicity doesn't count as an attack modifier anymore IIIRC

[ElementUser]

It's not up to date so please point out the outdated info

[Sixerzi]

It's not up to date so please point out the outdated info

Magmus's volcanic touch and and kraken's splash are no longer attack modifiers. :)

[ElementUser]

Thanks, updated

[Hubaris]

Horned Strike is no longer chance based and Beardulon is now Booboo.