What ISN'T a Top Pick?

[Choker]

I'm not trying to be sarcastic with the title. I seriously do not know what are good competitive picks here? I have looked up top picks in DotA, but I know this isn't exactly the same. So, what are a couple of top picks and bad picks?

I know that Dark Lady is NOT a top pick haha.




-If there was already a thread about this, I searched, and could not find one if there was one.

[RogerDodger]

Scout

[endovelico]

Omg you picked Chronos we are boned

[Satyr]

Dark lady is picked very rarly, she needs to be buffed , add some passive or rework her ulti.
Ophelia is also rare pick, she is hard to play hero :]

[SolidStroke]

I'll probably get flack for this.

Ophelia
Blacksmith
Wretched Hag (yes, she can gank, but other people can gank better)
Dark Lady (yes, she can carry, etc., but other people can carry better)
Chronos
Hammerstorm (yes, he can deal damage, but other people can damage better)
Armadon (yes, he can tank, but other people can tank better)

[Dilligaf]

It largely depends on the game size and tier; Behemoth is godlike in a 5v5 public game with lots of crouded fights. Dark Lady is amazing endgame if you have an organised team that have allowed you to farm & you know when to use her ultimate. Chronos is actually one of the most powerful heroes ingame if you farm money on him, but he needs a lot of babysitting early on. And scout is an instant-loss if you're fighting team vs team and let it get to end game: it's like playing 4 vs 5 because he's so squishy and wards/dust instantly counter him.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, most heroes have their uses depending on what fight you put them in, and in what stage of the game you are in. Agility carries are often countered by ranged characters early on in the match when they cant afford to let creeps hit them.

[dreamex]

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Pharaoh
Kraken
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Keeper of the Forest
Andromeda
Devourer
Zephyr

Borderline Top Picks:
Torturer
Wretched Hag
War Beast
Pollywog
Ophelia
Armadon
Blacksmith
Pebbles
Glacius*
Slither
Jester
Accursed

Top Picks:
Madman*
Succubus
Soul Stealer*
Puppet Master
Pestilence
Magmus
Hellbringer
Electrician*
Demented Shaman
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire
Jereziah
Behemoth

Generally Top picks work and contribute in almost any team and are incredibly good at what they do throughout the game.

Borderline picks are more specific, good heroes that rely on teamwork or special lineups to dominate and have an impact on.

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.

Bad picks are just garbage heroes except when fed...

[Glorify1]

Magebane, worst hero in the game.

[Ozzzzz]

whats wrong with torturer?

[dreamex]

whats wrong with torturer?

He gets outclassed too easily and he's way too squish :\

I should've put a star next to him too actually. Stars are really heroes that can excel very quickly if they have a few good breaks or favourable lineups.

[jeppew]

Chronos and Magebane.

i cry when people pick them.

[Ozzzzz]

He gets outclassed too easily and he's way too squish :\

I should've put a star next to him too actually. Stars are really heroes that can excel very quickly if they have a few good breaks or favourable lineups.

ok thanks for explaining.

[Volfenstein]

At least explain why you think a hero is bad.....b/c they can all rape just depends how good the player is and for all you NON-DOTA players everyone can dominate everyone.

[Need]

Chronos and Magebane.

i cry when people pick them.

Actually, Chronos is unstoppable if he gets late game (which is very hard to manage unless its EM) so not all is lost. Magebane is also good late game but generally pretty weak so I would always go Chronos over Magebane.

[jeppew]

Actually, Chronos is unstoppable if he gets late game (which is very hard to manage unless its EM) so not all is lost. Magebane is also good late game but generally pretty weak so I would always go Chronos over Magebane.

they need to farm for more minutes than the games usually last, other heroes will accomplish much more with much less in lategame.

[pntaooo1]

kidding me? magebane worst pick? learn how 2 play with it and dont blame yourself. magebane its a good pick against any hero.

[dreamex]

kidding me? magebane worst pick? learn how 2 play with it and dont blame yourself. magebane its a good pick against any hero.

I don't want to bring up experience or PSR or level of play.

But Magebane is widely considered one of the weakest heroes in the game by most competitive folks and his only saving grace that has seen him be picked in the last YEAR of DotA is that he can safely solo push side lanes with a Runed Axe while his team pushes together by virtue of having the best escape mechanisms.

He's the worst pick because he is very mediocre unless extremely farmed/fed and most games at more competitive brackets tend to end before that happens. Same with Chronos.

[dune]

kidding me? magebane worst pick? learn how 2 play with it and dont blame yourself. magebane its a good pick against any hero.

Imagine Anti-Mage from DotA who is essentially never picked in competitive play. Now nerf his mana burn and attack animation. That is why he's terrible.

Learn about game mechanics.

[Murlox]

In pub games, i feel unsecure when my teammates pick

scout : will he teamplay? level eye?

dark lady : will he be good enough to farm early mid game?

chronos : same.

Tree : god i hate this hero, what can he do beside throwing his ult once every 2 minutes?

ophelia : obvious, will he succeed at multitasking? even so, it means we need 1. real teamplay, 2. to end the game quite fast. Not so certain in public.

zephyr : omg i hate this guy the most. Does nothing but farm all game long, don't help in lane, don't help in ganks.

hammestorm : sucky hero, can't do anything on his own.

wretched fag : mediocre hero, but doesnt get picked by bad players in my experience.

[binbo]

zephyr : omg i hate this guy the most. Does nothing but farm all game long, don't help in lane, don't help in ganks.

But that's the point. He's an incredibly strong farmer, and if allowed to farm undisturbed, he rises out of the jungle extremely strong.

[Voidi]

kidding me? magebane worst pick? learn how 2 play with it and dont blame yourself. magebane its a good pick against any hero.

You might want to reconsider this post. I'm rather sure Glorify is a much better player on Magebane than you, even though he hates picking him.

[Choker]

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Pharaoh
Kraken
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Torturer*
Keeper of the Forest
Andromeda
Devourer

Borderline Top Picks:
Wretched Hag
War Beast
Zephyr
Pollywog
Ophelia
Armadon
Blacksmith
Pebbles
Glacius*
Slither
Jester
Accursed

Top Picks:
Madman*
Succubus
Soul Stealer*
Puppet Master
Pestilence
Magmus
Hellbringer
Electrician*
Demented Shaman
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire
Jereziah
Behemoth

Generally Top picks work and contribute in almost any team and are incredibly good at what they do throughout the game.

Borderline picks are more specific, good heroes that rely on teamwork or special lineups to dominate and have an impact on.

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.

Bad picks are just garbage heroes except when fed...

This post is incredibly helpful, thanks. Seeing as no one flamed you, there must be general consensus on this list.

[dreamex]

This post is incredibly helpful, thanks. Seeing as no one flamed you, there must be general consensus on this list.

I think people would argue for some heroes being shuffled around 1 tier at a time, but I don't think anyone knowledgable will claim that magebane is good or that predator should be a top pick...

It's not a conclusive list, since each hero has individual strengths and weaknesses and not all heroes in the Top picks list are equivalently good, just like not all heroes in the borderline list are equivalently good, but it's a good guideline if you put them into a range.

[GuyGin]

He gets outclassed too easily and he's way too squish :\

I should've put a star next to him too actually. Stars are really heroes that can excel very quickly if they have a few good breaks or favourable lineups.

I dunno how true that is. He works insanely well with most aoe disables like Tree ult or Tempest ult. Plus he is very useful for pushing and raxing.

I see tort alot like I see behemoth. In the hands of a skilled player, he is amazing. In the hands of a less skilled player he is horrible. There is very little in between imo.

From your list I would put Tort and Pebbles as top picks, as both of them can devastate in the hands of a skilled player (particularly pebbles stalagmites / toss combo in the current patch.)

[magnakaser]

Mediocre Picks:
Blood Hunter*
Torturer*


Borderline Top Picks:

War Beast
Zephyr

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.



Really? The best silence in the game, a high damage AoE stun with a low cooldown and one of the better pushing heroes in the game contribute less to the team than War Beast and Zephyr?

[Happyfish]

But that's the point. He's an incredibly strong farmer, and if allowed to farm undisturbed, he rises out of the jungle extremely strong.

until he gets purged > mana drained > just a lump of ez focus fire

[GuyGin]

until he gets purged > mana drained > just a lump of ez focus fire

He's still strong against melee if he can keep his cyclones up, and when farmed with a radiance that is even more true.

[magnakaser]

He's still strong against melee if he can keep his cyclones up, and when farmed with a radiance that is even more true.

But there are so many better picks than Zephyr that require much less farm to contribute much more to the team. Zephyr really doesn't do much until he's farmed, and then he's just a big ball of AoE damage to avoid.

[RedPowerVan]

Bad Picks:
Wildsoul


I don't think wildsoul is on the bottom rung. He's easy to play and survive with and can remain effective mid game by catching people with his bear. He's a decent jungler as well. He should at least be mediocre.

[SoleSurvivor]

Hammerstorm/Dark Lady/Ophelia T_T useless heroes ofc

[magnakaser]

Hammerstorm/Dark Lady/Ophelia T_T useless heroes ofc

Hammerstorm will be a great deal better in the next patch.

[Rasui]

I think people would argue for some heroes being shuffled around 1 tier at a time, but I don't think anyone knowledgable will claim that magebane is good or that predator should be a top pick...

It's not a conclusive list, since each hero has individual strengths and weaknesses and not all heroes in the Top picks list are equivalently good, just like not all heroes in the borderline list are equivalently good, but it's a good guideline if you put them into a range.
This says it perfectly, no one will ever agree 100% on any list. That one is 80-90% correct in most peoples eyes so it's a good general reference.

[SoleSurvivor]

Hammerstorm will be a great deal better in the next patch.

Well i hope so cuz, when guy of my team get him make me rly mad :(

[Nedrapter]

I'll tell you something else, how to pick a hero.

If you are thinking to get a Carry hero:
-If you know the enemy's choices, get something that can counter.
-Prefer something that's doesn't need extreme farm. (e.g. Arachna)
-Get something that can kill at early lvls too. (e.g. Swftblade)
-You have high chancing that you will be the one soloing mid, get something that can control the mid lane and farm without getting killed (e.g. Soulstealer).

If you want to pick a Support hero:
-If you know the enemy's choices, get something that can counter.
-The more disables, the more useful you are. (e.g. Succubus)
-The more heals, buffs, the more useful you are. (e.g. Jeresiah)
-Pick something that can work well with your mates in a lane. (e.g. Got a Swiftblade, get someting with a long time disable - Pollywood Priest)

If you want to pick an Initation hero:
-If you know the enemy's choices, get something that can counter.
-Get someting that can initiate battle without having to be under certain cirmustances. (e.g. Magmus can blink inside whenever he wants.)
-Get something that apart from initiation can also disable or dmg with another ability (e.g. Behemoth)
-Get something that can work well with another spell of your team. (e.g. Behemoth's ultimate can help Moonqueen deal damage with her ultimate only on heroes).

If you follow these facts everytime you pick a hero, you will never need to know who's top and who isn't.

[GODLY]

People hate on Hammerstorm because they got dicked by his might shaft; Hammerstorm and Ophelia are nowhere near as garbage as Dark Lady and Magebane.

[Inconmon]

This post is incredibly helpful, thanks. Seeing as no one flamed you, there must be general consensus on this list.

No.

Zephyr for example is a bad pick. He is based on farming with no skill to be of any use at the lane or ganks. Even when farmed beyond all sanity he still sucks as carry and its biggest strength is tanking. Already mediocre pub games are enough to make Zephyr a bad pick and I doubt he will see play in competitive games.

Why would you play 30 minutes 4v5 cause of Zephyr -- if you can have a madman farm instead of zephyr?

[Glorify1]

Zephyr is a baller pick against ranged carry heroes like arachna or luna.

Against certain lineups, bad heroes become powerful.
Against certain lineups, good heroes because awful.


You might want to reconsider this post. I'm rather sure Glorify is a much better player on Magebane than you, even though he hates picking him.

<3, Actually I like playing Antimage(not so much magebane), but he's the worst hero in HoN hands down.

[Voidi]

I find it interesting that the one hero that is picked almost every low/noob-tier game is (correctly put) among the "Bad Picks", while most of the other ones in there are hard carries, who are regarded as bad because they close to never reach the point in the game where they get good.
I've yet to win a single game this week with a scout in my team. Every team fight is 4v5 with him, all he can effectively do is ward and finish off runners from the woods.
I do not understand the motivation of picking him, never did. Where's the fun in stealth if you can't ever get out of it because you are otherwise useless?

[Chone]

I can see why magebane is not a good character but what makes him the WORST character in HoN? I know he isn't good but what makes him so god damn awful?

I'm not arguing or anything, I'm just curious on what makes Magebane the bane of HoN :P

[J0k3]

I can see why magebane is not a good character but what makes him the WORST character in HoN? I know he isn't good but what makes him so god damn awful?

I'm not arguing or anything, I'm just curious on what makes Magebane the bane of HoN :P

Manaburn damage is nerfed, his attack animation is horrible (compared to Magina @ DotA), so you cant blink -> hit -> blink -> hit -> blink -> hit.
In DotA his BAT was amazing, making him able to deal tons of damage and also reach permabash if game goes on long enough. In HoN permabash doesnt exist.

[teejing]

magebane

pros:

fast, good dmg, good at chasing low hp heroes down

cons:

bad farming, low hp, bad lane control


conclusion: you have problems farming early game, and his lategame is not the best either.
You have to manage to magicly farm early game to chase heroes down all over the map mid game and end the game right there.

Sadly Arachna has far better early, mid and late game.

There is only 1 point magebane has over any other heroes, tanking magic dmg.
So if you are up against 4-5 nukers, you just have to manage to get a heart to tank all magic dmg.
Maybe an Axe with hood/heart could do the same job better...

[dreamex]

Really? The best silence in the game, a high damage AoE stun with a low cooldown and one of the better pushing heroes in the game contribute less to the team than War Beast and Zephyr?

They have stars for a reason, I really want to move them up and in certain situations they're amazing...

BH will be much better with Quelling Blade, Torturer is really borderline, I'm thinking of shifting him.

Zephyr is pretty bad, you're right, I'm demoting him.

War Beast I disagree with, he's a very strong jungle hero and respectable carry with low item dependency.

[Gipp]

eh dark lady has potential.
i havent really played her much, but i always see people use her bad.
i love her ultimate though. nothing disorients a team better (unless they are all sticking together which is rare in pubs) but even then it is a pretty strong initiating spell.

my gripe with her is, too mana intensive. her slow seems pretty bad too.
i love the silence on attacks though. she has a good attack animation also.
if i am correct with mechanics, the silence works with her cleaving blink thing so you can silence a group.

i find her to have alot of potential. she just needs a few tweaks.

as for magebane.
bad animation is bad.
whats worst, most pubs build him with abyssal skull+ vanguard. so he farms even worst.
had one on my team last night that made it to late game. but he went vanguard and linkens, thus he farmed shitty and did no damage at all.
he can still be played right, but his attack animation is still bad and that can usually make or break a hero.

[Satyr]

Chronos has potential either :)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/138/shot0008si.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/shot0008si.jpg/)
we were 4v5 almost half of the game , opponents were smashing us for 75% of game and then chronos stopped farming and it was breaking point :]
tbh it took him a long time :p we only won because of his constanly farming .
but chronos is still rare pick : <
ps, its not EM :P

[xDamian]

I find it interesting that the one hero that is picked almost every low/noob-tier game is (correctly put) among the "Bad Picks", while most of the other ones in there are hard carries, who are regarded as bad because they close to never reach the point in the game where they get good.
I've yet to win a single game this week with a scout in my team. Every team fight is 4v5 with him, all he can effectively do is ward and finish off runners from the woods.
I do not understand the motivation of picking him, never did. Where's the fun in stealth if you can't ever get out of it because you are otherwise useless?

Then the scout you played with must have sucked. If you followed Nome's guide then scout would be a team player. He would be the intiator with his crossbow by shooting at the support heroes and finishing them off so that it could be a 4v5. Plus scout isn't useless if played in the right hands. D=

[Tempered]

Scout is still useless. Hes almost required not to participate in a team fight. if you get close to any smart team there going to have either wards or dust on hand and smack you into the ground.

[Bludgar]

Just throwing my two cents in:

Succubus is an awesome hero who only becomes a support later in the game. Most of my all-hero pick games, I'll choose succubus. When I do, I know that a) I'll single-handedly tool anyone in my lane solo and b) I'll have to constantly say "Don't hit the people that are mesmerized" or "Hit the damn person while my ult is on them." Plus, she's the easiest hero to rush a staff of the master on.

I've never done well with Magebane, but I haven't played with him in awhile. I think I could do a lot better nowadays. In my opinion, because of his fast attack speed, he makes a great carry-supporter. I can easily get his attacks up to 2 per second at 200 damage per hit before level 15. As long as I'm on a team with a decent disabler (succubus, pollywog) or tank (legionnaire), I'm going to be able to help gank quickly and prevent the enemy from using their skills with my mana burn. I can understand why no one ever picks him, though.

As far as Wretched Hag goes, while she's not as desirable to use as a lot of other nukers, her strength comes from her ability to unload a huge amount of AoE damage. As far as I'm concerned, she's the perfect anti-pusher. If they enemy is running up a lane, activate a shrunken head, run up, unload a bat blast, blink into the middle of them, unload a sonar scream (900 damage so far, creep wave is gone), if you have a frostfield plate (which you should), unload that for another 200 damage. Apply a haunt to any stragglers. If you're working well with your team and they're into position, you've basically genocided their team within a few seconds.

Lastly, Ophelia. You can tell within the first minute of gameplay whether she's going to drag on your team or not. If she heads to the jungle, she knows what she's doing. If she heads to the lane, you might as well ask for a remake. The same goes for Scout. If the first thing you seem him do is head to the river to place an eye, you've got a good Scout. The last few I've played with knew what they were doing. His speed, eyes and invisibility are an incredible boon and you can easily perform some great hit-and-run tactics with him on your team. Let him kill-steal from you and farm him up nice and good and you've actually got a great carry that can chase down just about any enemy with ease.

[Marcusino]

This makes me wanna try Ophelia.... Bahaha! ;)

[xDamian]

Scout is still useless. Hes almost required not to participate in a team fight. if you get close to any smart team there going to have either wards or dust on hand and smack you into the ground.
Not if you have the right items. And if you actually KNOW how to play scout instead of those ks bastards that vanish in and out jsut to get a kill.

[xahxah]

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Pharaoh
Kraken
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Keeper of the Forest
Andromeda
Devourer
Zephyr

Borderline Top Picks:
Torturer
Wretched Hag
War Beast
Pollywog
Ophelia
Armadon
Blacksmith
Pebbles
Glacius*
Slither
Jester
Accursed

Top Picks:
Madman*
Succubus
Soul Stealer*
Puppet Master
Pestilence
Magmus
Hellbringer
Electrician*
Demented Shaman
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire
Jereziah
Behemoth

Generally Top picks work and contribute in almost any team and are incredibly good at what they do throughout the game.

Borderline picks are more specific, good heroes that rely on teamwork or special lineups to dominate and have an impact on.

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.

Bad picks are just garbage heroes except when fed...



This list needs some serious work.


Moon Queen and Soul Stealer over Tortuerer, Pollywag, Glacius? What? Swiftblade in the top picks?



LOL at Pharaoh, Nighthound, and Bloodhunter's positioning.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

Dark Lady is the strangest part of these lists to me. Public opinion is now that she is **** town, but with 2-3 more seconds on her ult, every other thread was about how she was the most overpowered hero ever.

I think she could stand to have some more stats, and maybe some cheaper early game spell costs, but her ult is still amazing in a good team. Also, her pure bursted damage potential is high, and the utility of silence-charge in a group fight is good (countering channel ults, and picking off multi-disablers before they can ruin your team).

I can see how she's weak, but, she's no scout...

[xahxah]

Dark Lady is the strangest part of these lists to me. Public opinion is now that she is **** town, but with 2-3 more seconds on her ult, every other thread was about how she was the most overpowered hero ever.

I think she could stand to have some more stats, and maybe some cheaper early game spell costs, but her ult is still amazing in a good team. Also, her pure bursted damage potential is high, and the utility of silence-charge in a group fight is good (countering channel ults, and picking off multi-disablers before they can ruin your team).

I can see how she's weak, but, she's no scout...


Dark Lady breaks certain line-ups purely on the basis of the ult. On top of the pseudo AoE silence she becomes a real pain in the neck.

[Ozzzzz]

Just throwing my two cents in:

Succubus is an awesome hero who only becomes a support later in the game. Most of my all-hero pick games, I'll choose succubus. When I do, I know that a) I'll single-handedly tool anyone in my lane solo and b) I'll have to constantly say "Don't hit the people that are mesmerized" or "Hit the damn person while my ult is on them." Plus, she's the easiest hero to rush a staff of the master on.

I've never done well with Magebane, but I haven't played with him in awhile. I think I could do a lot better nowadays. In my opinion, because of his fast attack speed, he makes a great carry-supporter. I can easily get his attacks up to 2 per second at 200 damage per hit before level 15. As long as I'm on a team with a decent disabler (succubus, pollywog) or tank (legionnaire), I'm going to be able to help gank quickly and prevent the enemy from using their skills with my mana burn. I can understand why no one ever picks him, though.

As far as Wretched Hag goes, while she's not as desirable to use as a lot of other nukers, her strength comes from her ability to unload a huge amount of AoE damage. As far as I'm concerned, she's the perfect anti-pusher. If they enemy is running up a lane, activate a shrunken head, run up, unload a bat blast, blink into the middle of them, unload a sonar scream (900 damage so far, creep wave is gone), if you have a frostfield plate (which you should), unload that for another 200 damage. Apply a haunt to any stragglers. If you're working well with your team and they're into position, you've basically genocided their team within a few seconds.

Lastly, Ophelia. You can tell within the first minute of gameplay whether she's going to drag on your team or not. If she heads to the jungle, she knows what she's doing. If she heads to the lane, you might as well ask for a remake. The same goes for Scout. If the first thing you seem him do is head to the river to place an eye, you've got a good Scout. The last few I've played with knew what they were doing. His speed, eyes and invisibility are an incredible boon and you can easily perform some great hit-and-run tactics with him on your team. Let him kill-steal from you and farm him up nice and good and you've actually got a great carry that can chase down just about any enemy with ease.

people making posts like these probably dont play in any leagues or inhouses, and have no competitive background at all. if you only play in pubs please stop posting your arguments this "ranking" system is based upon competitive usefulness.

[Anonymous5]

I'll probably get flack for this.

Ophelia
/flack

[Bonburner]

Chronos is great team support ... great for chasing, running, and team battles. Ultimate locks up many heroes but the key is to disable with this guy and tank a bit.
Rewind makes him a formidable tank and toss a Helm of Black Legion and he can tank more than Devourer early/mid game. Toss either a heart/wingbow and he can tank more than Devourer.

[wtfiku]

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Pharaoh <==< LOL?
Kraken
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Keeper of the Forest <===< LOL????
Andromeda
Devourer
Zephyr <==< LOLLLL??????????

Borderline Top Picks:
Torturer
Wretched Hag
War Beast
Pollywog
Ophelia
Armadon
Blacksmith
Pebbles
Glacius*
Slither
Jester
Accursed

Top Picks:
Madman*
Succubus
Soul Stealer*
Puppet Master
Pestilence
Magmus
Hellbringer
Electrician*
Demented Shaman
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire
Jereziah
Behemoth

Generally Top picks work and contribute in almost any team and are incredibly good at what they do throughout the game.

Borderline picks are more specific, good heroes that rely on teamwork or special lineups to dominate and have an impact on.

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.

Bad picks are just garbage heroes except when fed...


Your list sucks. Keeper of the Forest is true counter to jungle hero. At lvl 7, he can pretty much lock all the neutral spawn.

[Edquilang1]

Those who say Ophelia sucks, sucks. :rolleyes: She easily dominates early/mid game and can end it before carries become buff, or gank them to their doom. I just wish their were better creep spells. (I miss centaur stun/troll ensnare. :()

[dreamex]

This list needs some serious work.


Moon Queen and Soul Stealer over Tortuerer, Pollywag, Glacius? What? Swiftblade in the top picks?



LOL at Pharaoh, Nighthound, and Bloodhunter's positioning.

Like I said, Torturer is a tough placement for me Pollywog requires a specific team lineup, and Glacius benefits only when the team he's in uses him.

Pharaoh is a very mediocre ganker, there are better ones out there that provide more late game and with the whole phasing out of wall bit going on he's quite a bit more limited then Clockwerk was. I'm also uncertain whether or not scepter works on him in HoN and without the scepter remake with the better build up it's not even that good on him.

Nighthound is hard to place, he's pre-nerf riki so he's a decent carry, but he really needs a lot of farm and the metagame these days is that carries that only help when they can farm for 30+ minutes really hinder the team when there's a lot of AoE flying around. Same with Chronos, if you have a team designed to turtle and repel pushes to let him farm up he can be deadly, but so can many other carries.

Bloodhunter is a good hero, he'd be borderline top pick or considered as a top pick if he had a quelling blade in HoN, that's about it.

[dreamex]

Your list sucks. Keeper of the Forest is true counter to jungle hero. At lvl 7, he can pretty much lock all the neutral spawn.

lol, KotF is the counter to jungling heroes is the same as saying KotF is equivalent to 200g.

Not to mention for them to counter 200g they have to spend 200g themselves, while against KotF you can just lol destroy trees.

[Gipp]

Dark Lady is the strangest part of these lists to me. Public opinion is now that she is **** town, but with 2-3 more seconds on her ult, every other thread was about how she was the most overpowered hero ever.

I think she could stand to have some more stats, and maybe some cheaper early game spell costs, but her ult is still amazing in a good team. Also, her pure bursted damage potential is high, and the utility of silence-charge in a group fight is good (countering channel ults, and picking off multi-disablers before they can ruin your team).

I can see how she's weak, but, she's no scout...

all heros as of now is based on public opinion (except maybe the classic dota ones) until HoN starts entering the competitive scene.

i am not saying public opinion is totally wrong. there is a little truth.
but most of the time, a hero is "bad" because people dont know how to play them, thus they suck with them. so they say its the hero and not their playing skill.

as for the little truth. i cant imagine dark lady being a top pick if she was in dota due to the way the meta game is right now.
but i do not consider her a weak hero.
she just has balance issues, mainly a mana problem. this mana problem causes her to be weaker than she should be early-mid game where she should excel.

as for scout. his ultimate is ok. i think it takes way too long to cast in the early levels. it only really becomes useful at 16, or if your opponents have down syndrome and never pay attention to their debuffs (assassinate icon).

his wards are ok too. the cd should be shorter. very rarely do i see them used in the middle of a battle to detect invis people because it is usually on CD. or people are just stupid and lazy.

but once he pops his ultimate, guess what he is? a carry that doesnt have a slow or stun. you have to have disables for him to even be able to damage somebody down.
picture madman without stalk and barrel roll or frenzy. that is what scout it.

sure he can own if he gets fed. that is true with every hero.
but when it comes down to it, he is just a fly in team battles. not a threat.
very delicate hero with laughable auto attack damage whos only escape mechanism is vanish that gets countered by its cd or truesight.

atleast bounty hunter had track so he could actually chase people down being able to keep up with them (vanish ambush doesnt count) and a nuke to interrupt things atleast.

[Dubnasty]

My favorite heroes

1. Zephyr
2. Pharoah
3. Magebane

[WalkenDead]

Been playing alot of voodoo lately and my k:d ratio is improving greatly

[xahxah]

Like I said, Torturer is a tough placement for me Pollywog requires a specific team lineup, and Glacius benefits only when the team he's in uses him.

Pharaoh is a very mediocre ganker, there are better ones out there that provide more late game and with the whole phasing out of wall bit going on he's quite a bit more limited then Clockwerk was. I'm also uncertain whether or not scepter works on him in HoN and without the scepter remake with the better build up it's not even that good on him.

Nighthound is hard to place, he's pre-nerf riki so he's a decent carry, but he really needs a lot of farm and the metagame these days is that carries that only help when they can farm for 30+ minutes really hinder the team when there's a lot of AoE flying around. Same with Chronos, if you have a team designed to turtle and repel pushes to let him farm up he can be deadly, but so can many other carries.

Bloodhunter is a good hero, he'd be borderline top pick or considered as a top pick if he had a quelling blade in HoN, that's about it.



Pharoh is still really good even with lolphasebootsimba. Still a great ganker, good tank, and can control his lane fairly well with spammable missile. Better than Swift or Moon Quene, both who require farm to the max and suck outside of their ults early game (although MQ less so).



Pollywag is still absurdly good, and should not be put so low. He is picked in nearly every in house game I play.



Tortuerer is better in HoN despite having lower overall AoE because there's no Nerubian to lame the crap out of him all game.



Rikki isn't top picked but since Madman does occasionally get banned he sees alot of action. His smoke animation blows though.

[Ozzzzz]

swift only has his ultimate early game? his blade frenzy can be devastating with a disabler...

[xahxah]

swift only has his ultimate early game? his blade frenzy can be devastating with a disabler...


He can't lane because he will get harassed to death by simple auto attack and long ranged nukes. He has to neutral early or he has to have a really really really good babysitter.



Moon Queen at least can nuke early and SOMEWHAT solo depending on what she's facing and what lane she's in. She also farms way faster than Swift and has abit more presence earlier than he does.

[LegoPirate]

He can't lane because he will get harassed to death by simple auto attack and long ranged nukes. He has to neutral early or he has to have a really really really good babysitter.



Moon Queen at least can nuke early and SOMEWHAT solo depending on what she's facing and what lane she's in. She also farms way faster than Swift and has abit more presence earlier than he does.


swiftblade > luna in every way other then soloing. he cant solo too well, unless hes against melee heros.

swift farms better (frenzy takes out an entire wave np)
has a crit
isnt nearly as squishy
is a better hero early/mid game.

[BruceleetSI]

I think people would argue for some heroes being shuffled around 1 tier at a time, but I don't think anyone knowledgable will claim that magebane is good or that predator should be a top pick...

It's not a conclusive list, since each hero has individual strengths and weaknesses and not all heroes in the Top picks list are equivalently good, just like not all heroes in the borderline list are equivalently good, but it's a good guideline if you put them into a range.

Yeah its a pretty decent list but like any list there is a certain amount of personal preference. For example I'd switch over arma to top and arachna to borderline top anyday.

They have the same slow expect arma's is ALOT better IMHO due to the armor reducing property. And arachna's ulti is too easily countered by a TP. Others might disagree but like you say personal preference. Its always fun to see how in 1400-1600ish games you see arachna make 1 kill every 30 secs thanks to her ulti... while in higher tier games that hardly ever happens specially in lower lvls because people carry tps.

[Ass_Fister]

a mindless scout would target tanks but a true player only gets the support first knowing they are squishier and a good farm on him would make him unkillable ...
chronos is bad early game needs farming a lot but after he can pretty much solo the entire enemy team :D just give him a awingbow flayer and some lifestealing = he has 49%evasion chanche with wing and i could even kill a nh under cloud :D
magebane is a perfect str counter he can counter jere easily with his mana burn but only if you farm good and not going for useless items ... wingbow is good on him ...
hag is crap ... only her blink which is annoying and haunt are good the rest even her ulti does pure crap damage so ...
for dl ... what can i say she can silence very well a whole team, if you have wards you can pick a solo enemy and finish him in 5 sec with your team+your ulti :D
nh in my opinion is better lategame than scout with proper build but still weak vs chronos ...
bh can be easily countered by teams but can easily score a kill with his ulti :D
keeper is insane with his eyes and ulti + magmus or tempest or even behemoth ... he can disable a whole team ... twice if you want :D + he can use mock very well ...
for zephyr i totally disagree he needs some farming until a behemoth heart or mock and then he can almost chase the enemy to their wells but he can solo a lane easily and his cyclones damn those are powerfull ... agi carriers stay away from him early to mid game till they can easily disable ... :D
i dont know about swift but he is kinda squishy with no escape mechanisms ...

[Chamie]

I don't like your lists, imo they are extreamly incorrect ;/.
First of all Ophelia is way less useful than Chen, yes some creeps here have better spells but the only real good gank creeps are catman champion and minotaur, these spawn quite rarely with all the useless HoN creeps like skeleton king.
I might also add that the micro system in HoN is actually really poor compared to dota, which is HoNs weak spot imo.

The most important heroes ARE: Thunderbringer, Glacius, magmus, soulstealer, defiler and possibly also madman.
Dark lady ulti is extreamly underestimated in team fights btw..
Heroes like bloodhunter, Chronos and magebane should be avoided imo.
Chronos is not good in this game because there are too few good ultis that destroy everything that Chronos hits with his ulti. (You need thd, Lich, strong range carries, destroyer et.c) and even with that it's not THAT good really...

[Reonhato]

whats with the chronos hate, he is an awesome carry, he takes probs 10-15 mins longer then madman to get up but once you get wingbow hes almost impossible to beat 1v1 add in another 1 or 2 top tier items with boots/lifesteal and hes better then madman in every way.

[Reonhato]

Chronos has potential either :)
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/138/shot0008si.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/shot0008si.jpg/)
we were 4v5 almost half of the game , opponents were smashing us for 75% of game and then chronos stopped farming and it was breaking point :]
tbh it took him a long time :p we only won because of his constanly farming .
but chronos is still rare pick : <
ps, its not EM :P

ive never understood why people take runed over charged hammer for agi heroes

[RedPowerVan]

hag is crap ... only her blink which is annoying and haunt are good the rest even her ulti does pure crap damage
...

Her scream is a low cool down 500 area instant nuke for 300 damage and her ult has great range. 500 is a huge radius around your hero. They're both big team damaging skills during the ganking\mid part of the game and they can be popped off in an instant, leaving you more time to blink away, reposition or auto attack weakened players. If you are raising haunt and blink over her scream, you're really doing it wrong. Save your mana for her AoE and her blink, let other heroes do the snaring\stunning.

[Bludgar]

The most important heroes ARE: Thunderbringer, Glacius, magmus, soulstealer, defiler and possibly also madman.
Dark lady ulti is extreamly underestimated in team fights btw..
Heroes like bloodhunter, Chronos and magebane should be avoided imo.
Chronos is not good in this game because there are too few good ultis that destroy everything that Chronos hits with his ulti. (You need thd, Lich, strong range carries, destroyer et.c) and even with that it's not THAT good really...

Dude, what? Chronos is a disabler AGI carry that can stop the entire enemy team in its tracks while his team unloads their nukes. Not the best AGI, but still damn good.

Bloodhunter has a 15 sec silence, +80% base dam boost skill. That means I can turn their succubus into a *****cat for an ungodly amount of time OR put it on myself and go to town on their face. His ult is an anti-run mechanism. When used correctly, it is an instant kill, even on someone that started with full health. And, blood sense is INCREDIBLY important. A runner trying to juke you or hide nearby? Not happening. Blood sense provides information, which is imperative in more competitive games.

[dreamex]

@xahxah

Pharaoh is a good skillset, but in DotA he really benefits from the Scepter Buildup and with two indirect nerfs via item differences (phase and scepter) I find he's hardly worth a top pick in a competitive game. He has good lane control with his missile but he'll still have a hard time farming vs a decent dual lane and he can't really solo particularly well.

Pollywog's a mixed bag to me, on one hand, he works extremely well in teams that take advantage of his chain disables, but on the other hand, he gets shut down by a lot of lineups that can disrupt or remove him from a fight quickly. At the very least he can ward drop every cooldown and nab a tower xD.

I can concur with the Torturer discussion, I'm not sure if that makes him a top pick over some of the others, but he is definitely borderline.

Rikki's limitation is really the same as all hard carries that don't have an early-mid game, the metagame right now doesn't favour playing 4v5 for 30 minutes while babysitting your carry who's trying to rice.

@Chamie

You disagree with my list yet list the exact same heroes in your top picks as I have in mine. The only disagreement seems to be that you don't like Ophelia or Bloodhunter, I'd hardly call that extremely incorrect.

@Jarndt81

Bloodhunter is a single target disabler and chaser. For that role he is fine, he would be a better laner with Quelling Blade ported over at which point he'd definitely be a borderline top pick.

Chronos is a great initiator, probably the best one there is for many lineups.

Shame he's completely useless after the initiation, does none of the damage during the initiation, and is completely paper for the first 25 minutes or completely ignorable for the first 35 minutes.

Teams that can incorporate Chronos pretty much don't need him to become relevent to win the game or are designed entirely to stall pushes until he's farmed to 1v5 status. That doesn't make him a good hero or top pick

By far, the worst hero is The Dark Lady
I hope never play she again

[NiggerTree]

He can't lane because he will get harassed to death by simple auto attack and long ranged nukes. He has to neutral early or he has to have a really really really good babysitter.
Are you a moron?
Any stunner : Stun Spin Boom Kill.
Any slower : Slow Spin Boom Kill.

[xahxah]

swiftblade > luna in every way other then soloing. he cant solo too well, unless hes against melee heros.

swift farms better (frenzy takes out an entire wave np)
has a crit
isnt nearly as squishy
is a better hero early/mid game.



Dude you're terrrible if you think Swift Blade has more lane presence than Luna and can farm faster than her. MQ has 100x more lane presence than Swiftblade early on, can farm FASTER due to the fact that she can neutral, ancient stack, and last hit WAY easier because she's ranged. Not to mention she can KS whore way better too early game because she's got lots of nukes.

[Maxxx_Luv]

swiftblade > luna in every way other then soloing. he cant solo too well, unless hes against melee heros.

swift farms better (frenzy takes out an entire wave np)
has a crit
isnt nearly as squishy
is a better hero early/mid game.

I agree with xahxah. If you are trying to farm, you don't want to nuke all the creeps right away anyway. You are much better off last hitting and denying to make sure the lane doesn't get pushed even if there are no enemies in your lane. You want to avoid pushing so that you don't get ganked so easily. Also its good to maintain control of the lane so that the other team can't safely use it. When you leave the lane you generally want to make sure it isnt being pushed too fast in either direction. So to sum it all up, having a spell that can kill a creepwave doesnt make a hero good at farming

[LegoPirate]

any melee hero can outlast hit any range hero. melee heros simply last hit better. he has frenzy to force people out of lane, and hes much easier to get laning kills with, espeiclally with a lanepartner.

if you are laning with Swift, you want to push your lane and get tower asap, because you want to go ganking.

in any other lane then middle, Swift will outlane Luna. shes squishy enough that if she gets boots first (to avoid spin), he can have his lanepartner slow/stun hero and if she doesnt get boots first, same thing will just force her out of lane.
wards > ganks. also MIA calls have the same purpose.

[dreamex]

You know when people say Luna has better lane presence then swifty it doesn't mean 1v1 lol. It means overall against all heroes.

[LegoPirate]

You know when people say Luna has better lane presence then swifty it doesn't mean 1v1 lol. It means overall against all heroes.

overall, in any lane besides middle, im more worried about a swiftblade in my lane then a luna in my lane.

luna is easy to kill, has no magic immunity, and has 1 nuke, not counting her ulti.

SB is much harder to kill, moves faster, magic immunity on demand, a magical dps that does 500 magic damage at lvl 2, and he can instagib you with your ult if you let him (luna can do that too, but meh)

lunas nuke at lvl 2 is 150 dmg.
SB's frenzy at lvl 2 is 500 dmg.

coupled with a slow, or a stun, sb can dominate a lane, against any hero.

[TehSadist]

Those with blink can survive the lane, but certainly won't have much control of the lane. Will need ganks often to keep in control.

[ElementUser]

SB is much harder to kill, moves faster

Swiftblade has 305 MS, Moon Queen has 320 MS. :/

[LegoPirate]

Swiftblade has 305 MS, Moon Queen has 320 MS. :/

i go boots first on SB. my fault >.>

in general a SB thats trying to firstblood will get boots first. along with a few runes.

[Maxxx_Luv]

I'll agree that swiftblade has much more potential to be dangerous in a lane. But in a difficult lane, luna is much better off just because she is ranged, and doesnt have to put herself in a vulnerable position to harass with her nuke. In most higher tier games, you will see a lot more deadly lane combos where you can't just run in and kill everybody. I'm assuming you don't play many of these games with your boots first strategy.

In order to contribute to the original idea of this thread, I'll use an example of a very bad lane for swiftblade. Demented shaman and Legionaire... DS's heal does physical damage, and therefore affects you when you are spinning. Additionally, Legionaire can taunt you during your spin (it wont make you stop spinning, you just have to follow him). I'm pretty sure you can see how this lane would be very bad for swiftblade.

Obviously this is an extreme example, but I don't think anyone can come up with a more difficult lane for luna (pre lvl 6). If so, its probably not much easier for swiftblade. So to sum it all up, Luna is more versatile in the lane than swiftblade. There is only one thing swiftblade can do well in a lane, and if they shut that down you would probably be much better off as luna.

[xahxah]

I'll agree that swiftblade has much more potential to be dangerous in a lane. But in a difficult lane, luna is much better off just because she is ranged, and doesnt have to put herself in a vulnerable position to harass with her nuke. In most higher tier games, you will see a lot more deadly lane combos where you can't just run in and kill everybody. I'm assuming you don't play many of these games with your boots first strategy.

In order to contribute to the original idea of this thread, I'll use an example of a very bad lane for swiftblade. Demented shaman and Legionaire... DS's heal does physical damage, and therefore affects you when you are spinning. Additionally, Legionaire can taunt you during your spin (it wont make you stop spinning, you just have to follow him). I'm pretty sure you can see how this lane would be very bad for swiftblade.

Obviously this is an extreme example, but I don't think anyone can come up with a more difficult lane for luna (pre lvl 6). If so, its probably not much easier for swiftblade. So to sum it all up, Luna is more versatile in the lane than swiftblade. There is only one thing swiftblade can do well in a lane, and if they shut that down you would probably be much better off as luna.


Swift has absolutely no lane presence. Let me put it this way...



The best Juggernaut player in the world even neutrals early on unless he's ganking out of the jungle. That should tell you something about Swiftblade's early lane presence.

[KingDavid]

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Pharaoh
Kraken
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Keeper of the Forest
Andromeda
Devourer
Zephyr

Borderline Top Picks:
Torturer
Wretched Hag
War Beast
Pollywog
Ophelia
Armadon
Blacksmith
Pebbles
Glacius*
Slither
Jester
Accursed

Top Picks:
Madman*
Succubus
Soul Stealer*
Puppet Master
Pestilence
Magmus
Hellbringer
Electrician*
Demented Shaman
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire
Jereziah
Behemoth

Generally Top picks work and contribute in almost any team and are incredibly good at what they do throughout the game.

Borderline picks are more specific, good heroes that rely on teamwork or special lineups to dominate and have an impact on.

Mediocre picks are okay picks individually, but often contribute little to the team or get countered too easily to provide strong benefit.

Bad picks are just garbage heroes except when fed...

bad, puppet master and nymph are not top picks. Glacius should be in the top pick.

[gipp2]

this thread reminds me of vh1 lists that everyone argues over

[KingDavid]

with all that magebane sucks balls, because everybody knows that all carries need to farm well!!!

[zackattk]

Chronos should be higher, he is a bit dicey and luck based. Regardless he is still one of the strongest carries in the game due to his passive bash and evasion. Especially since his passive evasion works on magical also. I would agree that if you get denied on your farming too much with Chronos he is somewhat useless. I would personally put Chronos in a Mediocre-Borderline level depending on how smart of a player is using him.

[Skkra]

The reason that heroes like Chronos are low tier is because (said for the millionth time) they need too much farm before they can carry. A hero like Madman can start performing serious ganks very early on with great effectiveness. Someone like Chronos needs way more help from teammates.

[Choker]

I think I've created a monster. This is worse than the lolwho'sthebetterguitarist lists on guitar forums.

[Maxxx_Luv]

Swift has absolutely no lane presence. Let me put it this way...



The best Juggernaut player in the world even neutrals early on unless he's ganking out of the jungle. That should tell you something about Swiftblade's early lane presence.

Depending on the lane, he can be a very big threat whether or not hes ganking out of the jungle. So I don't really agree that he has absolutely NO lane presence. There are situations where you could get early kills in the lane as swiftblade that you couldn't get as moon queen. But I agree with the overall idea that luna is better at laning than swiftblade.

[Magnets1]

I would guesstimate scout is picked in 3/4 of games I play, but it really is one of the worst characters in terms of team-play, it usually just sits around waiting to pick off the runners, yet usually gets killed since it has to take on 3 or 4 people at low HP and gets stunned/killed.
/rant

[LegoPirate]

I think I've created a monster. This is worse than the lolwho'sthebetterguitarist lists on guitar forums.

well... thats any easy one

kirk hammett GG

[Luxpus]

well... thats any easy one

kirk hammett GG
dimebag forever

[ToRpiD]

Imo:

Bad Picks:
Scout
Dark Lady
Chronos
Wildsoul
Magebane
Keeper of the Forest
Armadon

Mediocre Picks:
Hammerstorm
Night Hound
Predator
Blood Hunter*
Andromeda
Devourer
Zephyr
Torturer
Slither
Jester
Blacksmith
Pebbles
War Beast
Electrician****

Electrician is a highly situational counterpick. I'm tempted to put VS higher, but HoN seems to play out with more teamfights and thus have a shorter earlygame than dota due to the removal of heroes like NA, lion puck etc.

Borderline Top Picks:
Wretched Hag
Pharaoh
Kraken
Pollywog
Ophelia
Glacius*
Accursed
Succubus
Demented Shaman
Swiftblade
Pyromancer
Nymphora
Moon Queen
Legionnaire

Clock is a top pick in asian leagues, and pharaoh is the same as clock. I also am realllllly not liking swiftblade in this category, but he seems just a little too good for the prev pile.

Top Picks:
Madman*
Magmus
Hellbringer
Defiler
Arachna
Valkyrie
Tempest
Thunderbringer
Jereziah
Behemoth

edit: really not sure about jere as a top pick, but he seems a bit above the heroes in the previous category. Madman also seems sorta questionable. I should have added another category in between, but cbf changing now.

Imo:

Bad Picks:
Magebane
Keeper of the Forest
Armadon


wrong

[ToRpiD]

Lol are you bad? Name ONE situation where those heroes would be the optimal ones to get? Mbe I was too harsh on tree, but arma and AM are just trash.

[kingcomrade]

This post is incredibly helpful, thanks. Seeing as no one flamed you, there must be general consensus on this list.He's wrong about Pharoah and Andromeda. They are good picks. Pharoah especially. Clockwerk in DotA is a top pick, often first pick/ban. Now that they fixed the phase boots bug he's a great choice. Andromeda is a low cooldown stun nuke and a skill that keeps people from escaping, one of the better gankers in the game. She's not the best ever but in HoN she is one of the few people with a targetted stunnuke.

[laycast]

I generally think they are all equal and share their rolls. I've seen people do good with all. Some do need buffed though.

[sam_jackson]

It all depends on what tier you are playing too. On some noob tiers, it's easier to play the harder to play chars, and on some mid levels, people don't expect much out of the underdogs.

[dreamex]

He's wrong about Pharoah and Andromeda. They are good picks. Pharoah especially. Clockwerk in DotA is a top pick, often first pick/ban. Now that they fixed the phase boots bug he's a great choice. Andromeda is a low cooldown stun nuke and a skill that keeps people from escaping, one of the better gankers in the game. She's not the best ever but in HoN she is one of the few people with a targetted stunnuke.

That list was written before fixes to pharaoh, andro, and introduction of staff to both of them >:(

[absoluterain]

Does anyone else think Pestilence is one of the best team heroes? You can play him as a carry or a tank, and with a Madman or Predator he becomes unbelievable. He's one of the only heroes I think that can completely change the battle.

[Bobdoyle]

Rooftrellen is far inferior to his DOTA counterpart

[Fu__plate]

Does anyone else think Pestilence is one of the best team heroes? You can play him as a carry or a tank, and with a Madman or Predator he becomes unbelievable. He's one of the only heroes I think that can completely change the battle.
Can completely change the battle?

How about meteor+void? Magmus stun+ulti, or behe blocking off an entire team then ulti+stun. Or any number of aoe ults.

[_swEEt]

magebane owns he rapes int early game so hard 3 hits then ulti and there dead. then go farm some and pop out gank blink gank farm gg. noobs hes an awesome hero team down with that aoe in the right situations aswell