Pyromancer -- Fervor vs. Dragonfire2+

[Isin]

So here are the two skill builds I see often in MM/pubs:


Dragonfire
Wave
Wave
Dragonfire
Wave
Ult
Wave
Dragonfire
Dragonfire
Fervor+/Ult+ etc

vs.



Dragonfire
Wave
Wave
Fervor
Wave
Ult
Wave
Fervor
Fervor
Fervor
Ult...dragonfire+

What is actually better from a high level point of view?

[ElementUser]

Cookie-cutter build is max the 2 nukes first because it gives Pyro the most burst at the earliest level.

[potoBest]

both builds are good

I've even gone 1 into wave/1 into stun+max fervor and that works too

it really depends on lanes/team

some lanes you really need the nuking power to get kills. some lanes harass from fervor does a lot more for you

[potoBest]

the upside of leaving 1 into stun is that it costs like 90 mana. pyro has issues managing mana to cast all 3 spells early game and this is much less of an issue with rank 1 stun

[Kudryavka]

Depends on the lane. Pyro should almost always be laned with Magmus, Hammerstorm, etc. which definitely puts an incentive on leveling your nukes as high as possible to dominate the lane, but the extra levels of Fervor are usually more useful around levels 7, 8, and 9, when you're not laning as much and won't necessarily have a priming stun from your lane partner to guarantee you land yours. Also, the DoT is crazy good for early pushing. It's basically up to you to weigh the advantages and disadvantages. If you can burst down the squishy enemies in your lane without putting more points in Dragonfire, it's probably better to do that, but against a lane more prepared for Pyro's burst damage, you might be forced to put the extra points in to make sure you can get kills early on. Pyro really isn't worth picking if he can't get kills early on, IMO.

[Linkness]

People forget that fervor gives +cast speed so levelling it up early can allow you to Phoenix Wave then have an easier time landing your stun cus of increased cast speed.

The DoT is also excellent for pushing towers. It's really not that important, as long as everything is maxed by 14 and you have your wave maxed at 7.

[JungleBasas]

If you were to max fervor first you should go steamboots, attack speed pseudo carry pyro build.

[Isin]

I mainly get fervor for the cast speed because it's really hard to hit stuns against people who know how to dodge them. I don't play carry pyro unless it's a stomp :P

[potoBest]

If you were to max fervor first you should go steamboots, attack speed pseudo carry pyro build.
if he's fed only a reasonable amount pyro can carry with say steamboots+blink+stats+some other items like sheepstick/nullstone/bkb

you can keep fervor 3 stacked in teamfights which will leave you at 2 attacks/second very early in the game

[Linkness]

Best way to carry with pyro is to get mana regen, behe heart and spellshards.

[potoBest]

I don't think spellshards are particuarly good on him tbh

sheepstick is 10x better

behe heart is fantastic though

[Sheriff]

I go wave/fervor with ults build

it nice to keep dragonfire at a low mana cost since its stun duration is static

[Nobunny]

Never level fervor. Pyromancer only has one build.

Stun/Nuke/Nuke/Stun/Nuke/Ulti.

There is nothing positive with geting Fervor pre maxed out nuke/stun except if you are to push towers pre lvl 6. Then again, pyromancer is a bad hero in a push lineup.

Nuke Build Pro's :

More dmg, more kills.

Fervor Build Pro's :

Less dmg, less kills.

Please do not forget that the STUN HURTS ALOT. Fervor dont.
As stated before, he is to be laned with another stunner, if you chose to lvl 1 in fervor pre lvl 6 your stun and nuke combo will not kill any hero, it will leave them running away.


* Except if you are to play him as a carry, then do as you please.

[Neefykins]

stun fervor wave wave wave ulti wave

that's the way to go, then max stun and fervor (obv.)

Don't listen to the ruhtards saying you should max out stun early as the stun duration doesn't scale so leveling it up is worthless early, in comparison to that one level in fervor which will making you a harassing genie early game

[FellChaos]

I find putting 1 point in fervor early has its uses, as it gets a large benefit at one and levels after that are much less. I typically go

Stun
Fervor
Wave
Wave
Wave

or

Stun
Wave
Wave
Fervor
Wave

Depending on my laning partner, then max wave and stun. The increase in attack speed from using both stun + wave more than makes up for the loss of 70 magic damage from your nuke early, you can typically get 3-4 more auto attacks in easily.

[ThomasDo]

just so u know stun stays same all levels

[Nobunny]

Example's for fervor lvling before maxing out nuke and stun.

LvL 4 :

Level 2 of stun gives 60 more dmg.

With Fervor it gives you 1 damage for 3 seconds aka 3 more dmg.

Net total : Stun Nuke build gives 54-7 more dmg.

* 1 point in fervor do not make your hero become slither.

[Kudryavka]

stun fervor wave wave wave ulti wave

that's the way to go, then max stun and fervor (obv.)

Don't listen to the ruhtards saying you should max out stun early as the stun duration doesn't scale so leveling it up is worthless early, in comparison to that one level in fervor which will making you a harassing genie early game
The point in fervor gives you 4 more damage on harassing hits and stops your combo from being able to kill at level 3. Good tradeoff, rite? Fervor is not really the great harassing spell you seem to believe it is. Getting it over the wave is just silly ****.

[ZyV]

Start with stun at level 1 always.
Proceed to max wave always.
At level 4 take w/e.
Take ulti at 6 always.
Finish maxing wave at 7.
Next levels take w/e.
After that don't forget to take ulti level 2 at 11 always.
Next levels take w/e.
After that don't forget to take ulti level 3 at 16 always.
Next levels take w/e.

Seriously, maxing stun over fervor or NOT doesn't really matter, even taking a few stats is not a big deal.

[AngryBoner]

Dragonfire. Most optimal build for nuking power, the extra 1-2 hits you will get in with fervor is not worth it.

[Isin]

The point in fervor gives you 4 more damage on harassing hits and stops your combo from being able to kill at level 3. Good tradeoff, rite? Fervor is not really the great harassing spell you seem to believe it is. Getting it over the wave is just silly ****.

The fervor DoT stacks, doesn't it? Also, that's not the only thing it does. It also gives attack speed which will allow you to shell out the same amount of damage with your autoattacks after comboing an enemy as the difference between rank 1 stun and rank 4. It also gives cast speed which makes stuns easier to land and gives you more time to autoattack after stunning.

[Disco_Bison]

You don't get fervor for the damage it provides, period. You get fervor early to make your stuns impossible to miss/dodge.

[kirbyruled]

Nuke build is preferred, Fervor is alright. You can make some arguments for it with attack trade+ and mana problems, but at the end of the day it does better at later than extra ranks of either of the nukes will. Burst damage is a big deal.

[Kudryavka]

The fervor DoT stacks, doesn't it? Also, that's not the only thing it does. It also gives attack speed which will allow you to shell out the same amount of damage with your autoattacks after comboing an enemy as the difference between rank 1 stun and rank 4. It also gives cast speed which makes stuns easier to land and gives you more time to autoattack after stunning.
Do the math on the Fervor DoT. You will never do real appreciable damage with it, except to buildings because they sit there and take attack after attack. Also, the attack speed isn't gonna put out nearly as much damage as another level in the friggin nuke, not to mention the obvious advantages of killing an enemy instantly rather than giving them 3 or 4 seconds after the stun to fight back or blink away or do something else nasty because you didn't nuke them down instantly like you could've with higher level nukes.

And for the record, I'm fine with Fervor at 4, but you NEED to put points into your nukes for at least the first 3 levels so you can get early kills in your lane. You simply don't have the burst damage you need if you only have level 1 nukes.

[Neescher]

Dragonfire. Most optimal build for nuking power, the extra 1-2 hits you will get in with fervor is not worth it.
I don't see that as proof.
2 hits with fervor level 2 does a good 100ish damage (1 auto attack, 1-2 ticks with 2dmg/s, another auto attack, 3 ticks with 4 dmg/s), whereas 2 more levels in stun will do 120 more damage (=90 with magic armor reduction).

I'm comparing a 4/1/2/1 build to a 4/3/0/1 here.

Not to mention you're getting 20 passive cast speed bonus, and 6% movement speed after your combo (9% if you combo with ult).

The stun duration on dragonfire is the same on all levels, the difference is with fervor you'll get in a few auto attacks more. The example I did earlier is only the case when the enemy decides to run (or is dead) after that combo. If he stays and fights, the fervor will stack up even more and it'll greatly outweigh the damage of dragonfire.

I'd say it depends on the lane; when you're laning with a magmus, hammer, etc.. it's likely that the enemy you focus is dead anyway after your partner's stun and your combo. In this case fervor will be better than levelling dragonfire.

[PrestonLee]

Max fervor before stun, it allows you to chase and harass easily, line your stun more easily, makes your auto attacks much better, allows you to get away or stay in a safe position easily after you've casted anything, and the damage all stacks onto both your spells in an AoE.

And you don't have to get Steamboots when doing a fervor build, I do Ghost Marchers and Pyro hits mad fast AND his auto attacks really hurt, not to mention after you do your combo you're running at like max speed and can just gtfo easily.

You use fervor because of all that movement speed, better cast times, and attack speed you get, the extra damage on the burning effect is just a nice plus. It also makes taking down towers earlier game really easy because the Towers get the burning effect on them.

Keep the stun low level because fervor makes your harassing much better without wasting mana, it keeps the stun lower mana cost so you can actually afford your entire combo in the earlier levels, and it makes setting up your stun after a Wave (+ulti) much easier so you can hammer the guy down with auto attacks that hurt.

[Godlike]

Yeah, not enough discussion about how much it helps keep peeps off creep line with harrass. When they are lower health to start with, you need less burst anyways. Some lanes Fervor is better to have, others with blinkers, i would say more 1-2 nuke.

[Coolcollo]

Solo mid versus a vindicator that is maxing Lore first I max Fervor first. It's possible to out harass him and end up taking his tower quickly. You won't be getting a kill(probably wouldn't be killing him regardless), but your team gets a quick tower and you 'should' get more ck/cd. Falls in line with more of a push strat with a Tort or polly etc.

[potoBest]

yeah...the people who think fervor doesn't add a lot of damage should try a 1-1-4-1 build

it adds up to incredible harass and you can take a tower extremely quickly

I don't think it's better than maxxing the nukes but it's worth trying out and is actually quite fun

[AfterLife`]

I like going for 2 1 1 3 1 4 1 3 3 3 4 2 2 2. Maxing out Wave over stun obviously because it scales better. I think maxing Fervor is better cause that's less mana to use your stun. The stun time doesn't increase either as you level up Dragonfire. Not to mention Pyro has some shitty mana problems early. The Fervor stacks with your spells, makes it easier to land the stun, if need be, and you can autoattack faster after using up your spells.

[Dambeh]

always get at least one level of fervor by 5,,, the improved cast speed is really useful on the stun,

[MadeOfWood]

Example's for fervor lvling before maxing out nuke and stun.

LvL 4 :

Level 2 of stun gives 60 more dmg.

With Fervor it gives you 1 damage for 3 seconds aka 3 more dmg.

Net total : Stun Nuke build gives 54-7 more dmg.

* 1 point in fervor do not make your hero become slither.
you forget fervor grants extra attack and movespeed
so if you get say 3 attacks of plus 3 spells thats like 24 damage from fervor plus 50 from the 1 extra attack so you get 74 damage out of as opposed to 60 from leveling dragonfire

[smilingo]

max wave/fervor and at around lvl 8/9 when you have phase boots +24dmg and your crazy attack speed/ms you can burst out another 400 dmg with auto attacks in seconds, its phenominal

[Complaint]

there's not a huge difference between either build. however, you may find it advantageous to go fervor if you're laning with a melee initiator (:pand::hamm::magm:) it's much more likely you'll be able to stun/wave and then stand in the back hoo'ing and ha'ing out fireballs without getting stunned or dead.

my biggest fear with a fervor build is being stunned immediately after my combo. you lose a huge chunk of your fervor buff and, if they can move afterwards, most or all of your auto attacks.

also, not to thread jack, but let's say you were going to solo-mid carry as pyro with a 4-1-4 build. what items would you get?

[Gillars]

Always always always depends on your comp. I would say for the vast majority of situations, maxing wave/stun is the way to go. But there are some situations where I could see putting some levels in fervor before maxing the stun.

The thing is, most of the time with pyro you should be laning with someone like magmus, hammer, or anyone with an instant stun so you can land your stun + wave with ease. In this case, the extra cast time on fervor is not gonna help much, and the actual damage from the dot + a small attack speed increase is going to be nothing compared to another level in wave/stun.

Going fervor is perhaps an option in laning situations that are not going so hot, as that extra mobility+faster cast could be the difference between you/your partner dying and not dying, but it's not likely to help with any kills early on.

-Gillars

[Mordiggian]

I go Fervor/Stats, and push like a bawss.

[Twine]

I tried wave over stun when I saw this thread (always maxed stun then wave before). I like it better because wave can harass better while holding the stun in reserve for 'oh ****!' moments.

Early fervor might be okay if you don't have any gank opportunities early on, and can whack a tower for a while. Don't expect this to be the case in ~80% of games, though.