Legionnaire Guide by Glorify [Archive] - Heroes of Newerth Forums

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Glorify1

09-09-2009, 08:26 AM

Obviously, if anyone followed the other guide that I wrote, this one will move along much in the same way my Soulstealer guide did through periodical edits. For the time being, if you can think of any question you want answered I will add it to my list of FAQ and quote you to give credit. I expect to finish this guide in a day or two, so likely you can check in at that time and it should be finished.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7049/heronu.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/heronu.jpg/)

Introduction
Guide expectations
What I'm hoping to accomplish with this guide is abolishing bad habits of average players who attempt to dip their feet into competitive play. While this guide may be helpful to completely new players, it is directed at players hoping to get into the competitive scene. It may or may not be useful to those who are already experienced in the competitive scene, I know there are a lot of bad habits even among better players, and I hope that through this guide anyone who reads it can become a better player. I'll discuss both laning and jungling capabilities, expectations in team fights, and overall goal of the hero as a whole.

Strengths and weaknesses
One of the only initiators in the game.
All relevant abilities go through magic immunity
Very durable hero, with one of the best disables in the game
Low mana pool makes spamming of his abilities difficult without a CM in a the game

Skills
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9066/taunt.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/i/taunt.jpg/)

Taunt is Legionnaire's only disable. It affects anything in 300 aoe around the hero, forcing them to attack him. While this is happening, they are unable to cast spells or move away, and this skill goes through magic immunity. This is one of the only non-elite disables that goes through immunity.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8731/terrify.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/i/terrify.jpg/)

Terrify is pretty much Legionnaire's useless ability. While it does do impressive damage on paper, the ability to simply take it off with a creep kill is trivial. Yes, you can use it to kill a 10 hitpoint enemy who would of gotten away, but then again so would a blink and auto attack. In a lane it can be a sufficient harass, but only in a situation where you have complete lane control. In which case, you would be better off going stats anyways. Suffice to say, it's not completely useless, and I'll go into more detail about this late. Also, another con of this ability is it's mana cost, you simply do not have the mana to support it.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6008/spinb.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/spinb.jpg/)

Whirling Blade is Legionnaire's bread and butter, it has great synergy with his disable because it does damage when you're attacked. Since his call forces opponents to attack you, it works in your favor even though you'll take damage when you do this. It's basically his only source of damage, and based on your luck, it can deal a ridiculous amount of damage at times.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2378/decapc.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/decapc.jpg/)

Decapitate is one of Legionnaire's most effective skills, it effectively does 300/450/625 true damage to an opponent through magic immunity. It will go through just about any ability or shield that anyone has, notably Accursed Ultimate, so it is an effective means of finishing an opponent.

Skill build and explanation
1. Whirling Blade
2. Taunt
3. Whirling Blade
4. Taunt
5. Whirling Blade
6. Decapitate
7. Whirling Blade
8. Taunt
9. Taunt
10. Stats/Terrify
11. Decaptitate
12-15. Stats
16. Decapitate
17-25. Stats/Terrify

Alright, so the build is pretty basic. You maximize damage, while limiting your early game disable, regardless of if you're jungling or laning. The reasoning behind this is a lack of need to have this early disable, you'll do more damage with spinning for more damage then holding them for an extra .5 seconds. While when to take terrify isn't very clear, it has it's uses in very specific situations. One would be against an enemy tempest, you blink on a ball and terrify him so he cannot initiate on your team without walking up. This is the only time you'd use this skill, or in the off chance you happen to need to kill a 20 hitpoint enemy late game. Stats is taken for mana, and the last 3 points of terrify(or 4) should be taken at the last levels when stats can no longer be skilled.

Item builds
Basic Starting Items
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4267/startingitems.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/i/startingitems.jpg/)
While this isn't the end all be all of starting items, this is what I choose to buy. Yes, you can in fact buy two stout shields, but I rarely see the point in it even with a chicken. You already have a 60% chance to block, getting more than that is generally just a waste of gold. You can buy a single set of tangos and go with two flasks if you so choose, I find tangos far better off though. They allow you to eat through the jungle and perform otherwise impossible double pulls, and are your main form of regeneration until you buy it from the side shop. The totem builds into one of your core items, so it's beneficial to spend your money on it now.

Core items
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4806/coreitems.jpg (http://img117.imageshack.us/i/coreitems.jpg/)
These are the core items, what you should always buy every game. Now you might say, what if I'm against 5 agility heroes with no spells? I'll tell you to stop reading a competitive play guide on how to play legionnaire. I will touch on the controversial item Vanguard in a moment, but basically it's NOT an item you should buy at any stage of any game. The power supply allows you to easily maintain your early game mana costs, and can be beneficial as a quick burst heal in case things go awry.

End game items
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5779/endgame.jpg (http://img140.imageshack.us/i/endgame.jpg/)
This isn't the end all be all of items you COULD buy, there are plenty of things that you could purchase for the situation. Some examples are bloodstone over Shiva's for overall more health regeneration(and infinite mana with a kill or two). You could build two hearts instead of one, or a demonic breastplate instead of any number of items. There are two items that are extremely important, and that's pipe and heart. These provide your staple health and health regen, and upgrade your magic resistance item to being both better and helpful for your team. Amor is also important, you never want to go into negative armor or come even close to zero. Buffing up with platemails is important, especially against heroes like pest and soulstealer.

Vanguard
http://honwiki.net/w/images/f/f4/Helm_of_the_Black_Legionitem.gif
I'd like to take this time out to address an item that you should never buy on any hero, this one included. We all know why people get this, it's damage mitigation, and it has just about everything Legionnaire needs early game. However, there is a gigantic flaw with getting this item, you get everything that it has and more buy building other core items. Now, sure, this item does reduce quite a bit of damage early on from both hero and creep attacks, but so does a normal stout shield! You're paying 2k gold for regen you DON'T need, and a moderate increase in life that you also do not need in the form of vanguard anyways. You can use the booster to make your heart later on, and lifetube is simply not needed. It's much cheaper to buy two rings, and you're only missing out on 1 point of regen. The 7 regen from helm+rings is enough to sustain you during the lane or jungle phases, and once you finish hood and phase you have sufficient creep reduction with the amount of armor and regen you have with basically 250 gold stout shield. This item delays all of the items you need to get as soon as possible, and I'll go ahead and quickly list them: Phase boots, Blink, Hood. These are THE core items, you need phase for armor and chase/escape, Blink for initiating, and hood as your staple regen and spell mitigation. You already have stout and armor, and that's enough to reduce most incoming creep damage, and you'll never be able to mitigate all damage from enemy heroes. Finally, this item scales poorly late game since it reduces damage before armor reduction. A quick example: Assume you have a vanguard, and you're taking 200 damage. Vanguard procs, causing the damage you would of taken to be reduced to 160. Lets also assume, since this is generally the case, you're now lacking armor because instead of opting for phase boots you bought vanguard. So your reduction is only 20%, causing the damage you've taken to be reduced by 32.
160 - 32 = 128

Now, you have armor and a stout shield, rather than the upgraded vanguard. You take the same 200 damage, and stout shield procs, reducing the incoming damage to 180. This is now reduced by your armor, let's assume 45% reduction.
180 - 81 = 99 damage taken.

Anyways, the two main points you should take away from section of the guide is:
-Vanguard delays your important, core items too long for little to no benefit
-Vanguard's early buffs do not warrant building it when you can already buy what it provides via core items you'll need later

Early game
To jungle or to lane
Legionnaire is one of the strongest junglers in the game and he can farm his items relatively quickly. However, laning you'll be able to farm much more quickly, so one might ask why would someone ever jungle over laning? It's simple really, jungling assures you last hits and no denies, so if you're not an astute last hitter it may be the easier way to go. However, Legionnaire is one of the strongest laners in the game, he has a great animation and ridiculous laning capabilities he's easily one of the more feared heroes to have to lane against. It makes opposing melee heroes lives hell, and with a decent hero as your backline it's pretty much freefarm. Another benefit of laning is the sideshop has a lot of the items you need in terms of early regeneration, so you rarely need to use a chicken or go back to base. However, laning isn't always the best decision, and really it comes down to team makeup. Would my team do better if we had two solos? This is the question you have to ask yourself. In terms of good heroes to lane with, ALWAYS a ranged hero with some sort of disable. It'll hold them in place long enough for you to walk up and taunt, which generally leads to them getting wtfpwned by spins. If you choose to jungle, generally pulling is advised to help your bottom lane, just be sure to warn them that you are doing so. Also, if you find yourself getting ganked in the jungle, the best method of preventing this is to ward some key locations. I won't provide any of these for you, because every game is different, just ward where they are coming from and you should be fine. The best advice I can give you, however, is to multitask your wards. Put it in places that see the area you want, but also see a rune position.

Jungle route
If you chose to jungle, really your job in the game is to rice your main items. If you find your team requires help, you should try and rush blink dagger. However, you do not under any circumstances do this without first buying the bare necessities you need to survive in the jungle. Generally that's boots, a bit of life regen, and an armor item. This can be accomplished in many ways, but one of the best items to save up for if you can is the helm of iron will(+3 regen, +5 armor), if you find you're unable to do this rings of regen(which you need for Hood, do not buy a lifetube) are your next best bet. If your lanes are going good, just farm up phase, hood, and then work on blink. While a blink can have some clutch saves early, you generally gimp yourself if you rush it too quickly. You don't have the mana, and most of the time it's effectiveness isn't felt until you have at least phase boots and some regen. One getting blink, you want to pretty much gank as much as possible, make opposing players miserable while farming on downtime of your ultimate or if you lack mana to continually gank. Another quirk of jungling is the ability to help control runes if your mid is failing, just walk down to the bot rune and tell him to go to the top rune. This will assure, for the most part, that your team gets the rune.

Laning route
I always suggest the bottom lane, since Axe can jungle if the lane you are against is a push over, and it's the lane that'll keep creeps near your tower. It also has the unique ability to pull, which forces the creep line up against your tower, leading to vulnerable positions for opponents. While it's not impossible to lane top, it's not advisable and should be avoided in almost all situations. As for mid, or soloing mid, he has no angles of which to get behind the enemy(the main form of calling pre blink), and he is a terrible solo so it's definitely not where you want to be. This is an aggressive lane, you need to constantly be creeping and harassing. One of the things you do not want to do is make your intentions clear to the opposing lane, as this will make you score no kills early on. You can mask an initiation attempt by running up to a near dead creep, as though you were going to last hit but instead you move to call them. If your ranged hero has disabled them, remember to maximize the efficiency of your call by hitting as many creeps as possible. More attacks = more chance to spin. In this situation, I try to buy my Rings first as to save my tangos and flask for later situations and burst healing, and phase boots should really come before blink. Boots are important on axe, but so is a balance between regen and damage mitigation, so it's important to try and remain even on these. For example, if you don't have phase boots yet, finishing that hood takes away 5 armor, leaving you with very low armor.

Ganking, when and how
Ganking with Legionnaire can be difficult or very easy depending on certain circumstances like lane, creep position in the lane, and most importantly opposing ward locations. If they seem to magically back when you move in to gank and you know they couldn't of seen you otherwise, there is probably a ward there to prevent your ganks. You can go different routes in an attempt to avoid the ward, you can counter ward, or you can simply farm it up so you can get a blink earlier. I personally don't tend to gank too often with Legionnaire, because the damage I take is generally crippling enough to stall my items for a long amount of time. However, if your team is getting owned in a particular lane, by all means gank to prevent losing early on. A single weak lane can easily cause the demise of your entire team, because when a lane fails, it eventually ripples down through all of your lanes and can easily be the downfall of your team. One of the best positions for a Legionnaire to gank is bottom lane, when it's pushed up near Sentinel tower. It gives him the perfect opportunity to run up behind them, and is best done when a creep wave is coming in. It forces opponents to run back to you through a wave, in which you can call for massive amounts of damage. Now, everyone should know lanes aren't always in the best position to gank, especially the bottom lane. A good, fast remedy to this is pulling. However, this normally compounds the problem by giving your lane basically double creeps for a wave, a solution is to double stack the pull camp and then subsequently pull to not only kill your creep wave but weaken the camp so that you can easily kill it. Obviously, you should ward your team that there will be no creeps coming next wave, so that they can prepare and not get wrecked by the surprise of no creeps coming. Ganking becomes progressively easier once you get blink, though most of the time blink isn't taken until the early mid game, but if you do happen to get it just continue farming until the opportunity comes where opponents can be called with their creep wave. Target their strongest lanes, ones where you team has been having problems, and always try to avoid normal ward positions like rune locations when moving to gank. When you finally do successfully get a gank, remember that taunted creeps will NEVER break from you regardless of what you do. This is useful, as say an opponent is two or three hits from death, you'll never kill him by simply auto attacking, run along side him and hope the creeps proc a spin. Finally, when you do taunt opponents, during the taunt attack and always try to attack dance so that you're positioned where the opponent is going to run. This allows more hits to be later landed when they do try and run.

Basic and advanced techniques
Setting up early game lane damage
So say you're in a lane. Axe has the potential to easily put out a lot of damage, and subsequently farm the creeps, though it's pretty blatant when you're moving forward to try and taunt the enemies. The best and most effective way of masking this is to move forward when a creep is low, hiding your intentions in the act of moving to last hit. This should look similar, if not exactly like prior attempts at last hitting. At this time, you generally want your ranged hero to stun or slow the opponent and you spam right click on him. This draws creep agro, and should set up your taunt which will hold them for (hopefully) spins. Again, as previously stated in the ganking section, you want to attack dance your way towards where the opponent is going to run. You can even just run there if you're not very adept at it, or if the taunt is at lower levels, just so long as you can run beside him and deal the most amount of damage as possible. Another good way is during the general time where you'd go to pull. If you've been pulling all game, it's highly likely if you walk off into the jungle or disappear during this time that they'll expect you to be pulling rather than moving around behind them to move on the offensive.

Tower skipping
This is a very viable strategy, thought it requires a lot of very good positioning and teamwork. Basically, instead of laning like you normally would, you'd skip the tower and pull opposing creeps down into the jungle. You HAVE to have the area warded off in this situation, if middle comes to help you need to be away of it or you will die. So you might be asking, why would I take such a big risk? For one, this is one of the biggest mind****s you can do in a game, and is generally extremely frustrating to deal with. If they leave you to farm, Axe will be extremely and utterly over farmed and they'll pretty much lose the game as long as you can actually hold your other lanes. It forces opposing lane heroes to either come deal with you and miss out experience, or deal with the creeps and let you free farm. With good warding, it's impossible to really get in a position where you could die, and last but not least if middle comes to help that's three opposing heroes that aren't getting experience. Damaging the tower severely in the process, this can be viable for an early push strategy, or for any strategy really. I generally only do this if I have dazzle, as he is simply the perfect ally to have while doing this. It takes down the creeps extremely fast, leaving any skirmishes hero vs hero, you have a lot of burst healing via flasks and his heal, and if they get in bad positioning you have offensive power via poison touch. When this is done, generally the players buy quite a bit of regen and neglect stats, and the crow can obviously ferry you more regen if you need it.

Stacking neutrals
Pretty self explanatory, you pull neutrals just before each minute mark to double/triple/etc stack them so that you get money quicker. You will deal with the camp much quicker due to more spin procs, and you will gain money quicker if you're able to deal with the mobs and incorporate it into your normal creeping routine. A good example of this is waiting around for a good 20 seconds to pull a camp and then kill the double stacked version - this is bad, you want to maximize creeping potential by showing up at camps you wish to pull right when you need to. This also brings up the importance of tangos, as they destroy trees which allow you to pull multiple camps together, a good example is the Sentinel side pull camp and the one directly above it. By eating the treeline between these two camps, you can easily pull them together and with a little juggling finish the camp. You can set it up so that if you time it right, you pull both of these spawns out of their camp so that an additional two camps spawn as you're fighting them. This is four camps generally killed in under 20 seconds, which can be a beneficial way of gaining gold and experience. I hope to eventually release both a laning video and a jungle video of myself playing Legionnaire, it will better show any explanation I can give and at the same time give you insight on how I play there hero in terms of map awareness and mouse clicks.

Mid Game
Farming, holding lanes in equilibrium, neutralling
At this point in the game you have a few decisions on how you want to farm. You're generally stacked enough to take on ancients, even multiple ancient camps, so stacking them and killing them after a large stack is there or simply killing them one at a time is very effective in terms of gold and experience. Neutrals you're able to stack indefinitely and kill them off with no problem, but if stacking a camp and killing it is going to take more time than wandering the camps and killing it's best to just not stack them at that moment. You want to increase your farming potential, not decrease it by stacking. You can also engage the camp, and weaken them and pull it, as long as you are out by the spawn time and there is no corpse in the area they'll spawn(corpses last 15 seconds). Having tangos can open up multiple pulls, so it's advised to carry a set if your inventory allows. Now when in a lane and farming, you're faced with two possibilities in how you exactly want to farm them. You can try and hold the lane in equilibrium close to your towers or your side of the map to remain safe, or taunt/agro everything and take it down quickly. It's best to hold them in equilibrium as to maximize farming and keeping yourself safe, but farming a lane quickly can be useful if you want to minimize your presence in a lane as you are close to a key item like reaver or blink.

Team fights, ganking, general direction
Team fights are important, a few lost team fights at this stage of the game can end it in the opposing team's favor. Your goal in the team fight is to blink and taunt, trying to grab as many people as possible. However, sometimes grabbing important targets is more important than grabbing the most as you can. For example, if an opposing tempest is out in the open it may be beneficial to grab him and burst him down. This disables their initiator, assuming they have only one, and is generally far more beneficial that catching two less important heroes. Either way, you cull the second you can on any target, effectively taking them down to a 4v5 before enemies can counter. This is easily possible with intelligent teammates that actually use their abilities rather than saving them, some examples are zeus and lina ulting as the fight begins rather than finishing moves. Another effective thing to do during a team fight, if you were unable to grab their initiating heroes, is to terrify an opposing hero with blink dagger. This prevents them from actually using their abilities(it's bugged right now, but hopefully next patch this will be fixed). Ganks you should always initiate if it's possible, as you have a very low cooldown aoe disabled that prevents casting. The only time I'd use a cull is against an opposing initiator, and that's only if I thought he was going to get away. It's not useful to waste it in these situations, as it gimps you on mana and leaves your ability to take the fight to a 4v5 away if you should happen to teamfight in the next minute or so. Your goal during this time is to finish core items, and begin working on any luxury items you happen to need. Heart is generally most useful, it makes you an absolute monster against every form of damage, but BKB can also be useful as it completely negates all magical damage. You should gank as much as possible, and push with successful ganks. Unless you're farmed beyond core items, you'll have a hard time staying alive in team fights, even when properly executed due to your average hitpoint pool. This is why I generally avoid team encounters in lineups with axe until a little later into the game.

Late game
Team fights
As the game progresses into late game, it's important to note how well you're actually surviving when team fights are going down. You should be a force now, something that takes considerate focusing to take down, and if they're focusing you then you're doing exactly what you need to be doing. It's extremely important to initiate upon opposing teams before they do it on you. This doesn't mean jump the gun and snag a single person - unless this is the goal of course, say in a gank - you want to hit either an important target that will allow you to push or hit as many less important targets as possible. Regardless of importance, you want to take someone out of the fight as soon as possible, preference given to an enemy who hasn't used his skills. This will effectively make the fight a 4v5, which should end in your favor assuming you didn't force your team into bad positioning. If you find your team unable to 5v5 them, you have to figure out if it was bad positioning, or simply you being unable to 5v5. Sometimes simply because of heroes it's impossible to 5v5 another team, in which case you turtle and gank until you pick one off which allows a push or you farmed enough to win a 5v5.

Farming
At this point, the best way to farm is stacking ancients, strong neutral camps, and killing lanes. As previously stated during mid game, if you have the gear you need, you should give farm to heroes that would benefit more than you would. Some examples would be allowing a Defiler to farm her heart, in favor of you farming a shivas, or whatever it is you need to farm. At this point I'd expect you to have core and a luxury item, but even if you don't have a luxury item you can still survive rather well in team fights if they aren't focusing you. If they aren't focusing you, you'll survive. If they are focusing you, you might die, but the whole point is to keep enemies off your allies.

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 08:36 AM

Advanced techniques on Legionnaire
Interupting via taunt
Saving your taunt for when the opposing enemies are in spell animation is going to do multiple things for you. It'll let you attack them more, it'll hold them in place longer, and it'll let allies catch up.

Attack dancing and positioning after a taunt
Attack dancing is the act of attacking, while cutting off most if not all of the backswing animation in favor of moving. This allows you to score more hits on running targets, but on stunned targets it allows you to deal the same amount of damage but position yourself better to continue attacking or even block opponents as they try to run. This generally means taunting an enemy, and attacking then moving to get into the area where they're going to run.

Drawing agro before taunting
This does two things, it allows enemy creeps to starting hitting you faster, and ensures that you taunt the creeps instead of missing them. It's pretty simple and easy to do, just spam right clicks on a stunned enemy hero. This will draw creep agro, and the subsequent taunt will hold them on you for the duration of the skirmish. The benefits of doing this does not end there, however. This also ensures that your allied ranged hero will not draw initial creep agro.

Stacking ancients to farm
Axe is one of the few heroes who can easily take on a stack of ancients early in the game, and they tend to die much faster dependent on how many there are. As long as you can survive their attacks, you can easily gain a lot of gold and experience by stacking then killing ancients.

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Why don't you use vanguard?
I've stated in the guide extensively why I do not use this item, it's a bad item.

Q. Shiva's lowers opposing attack speed, yet you offer it as a late game item, wouldn't that be counter intuitive to your whirling blades?
A. At this point in the game, when you would buy it, generally the attack speed debuff is hardly noticeable. It adds a lot of armor, which is EHP against attacks, and most of your damage occurs during your initiate taunt. This aoe slow holds them in place, and does a large amount of damage. It's more beneficial than hurtful to what you're trying to accomplish.

Q. Why do you skill Whirling Blades over Taunt?
A. There has been extensive discussion of this over the course of the thread, to sum it up I prefer the damage of any spins I do happen to get over the potential extra spins I would get had I taunted. It makes farming easier, it cripples opponents far faster, and the taunt is merely a follow up to an allied disable(sometimes an initiating hold to set up allied chain disables, but that's when jungling). It's purely preference, if you wish to skill taunt by all means go for it.

Q. Why don't you put any points in terrify, it does massive damage?
It's less of a damage skill and more of a utility. Regardless, if Axe had the mana to use it, I'm sure people would skill it earlier. As it is, he barely has the mana to blink taunt ult, much less add another skill into the mix. While it can be a potent harass tool, if you're effectively harassing with it you've probably already won the lane anyways and would do better with taunt/blades.

ToxicHobo

09-09-2009, 08:38 AM

Hate to spoil your fun brah but Element already did a near-perfect guide of Legionnaire

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=11992

09-09-2009, 08:51 AM

Hate to spoil your fun brah but Element already did a near-perfect guide of Legionnaire

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=11992

I am very interested to hear what glorify says as i found him + trainingdays guide on soulstealer just great to read.

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 09:03 AM

Hate to spoil your fun brah but Element already did a near-perfect guide of Legionnaire

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=11992

I didn't like the guide, too many bad Axe players around even in high PSR games.

ToxicHobo

09-09-2009, 09:34 AM

I didn't like the guide, too many bad Axe players around even in high PSR games.

Ok. I just said it because I wasn't sure if you knew about it's existence/would want to continue if a good guide had already been done

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 09:46 AM

Ok. I just said it because I wasn't sure if you knew about it's existence/would want to continue if a good guide had already been done

Oh, well I thank you for your concern! :)

I have quite a few opinions that strongly contrast with his guide, and seeing all these bad axes are really making me cringe. Hopefully this guide will lend a little more insight into how to properly play Axe.

Valor2002

09-09-2009, 11:48 AM

At which level is Legionaire capable of killing Ancients or even stacking ancients?

Mephs

09-09-2009, 11:48 AM

So whats the deal with Vanguard?

dreamex

09-09-2009, 12:05 PM

Core items
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4806/coreitems.jpg (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/coreitems.jpg/)These are the core items, what you should always buy every game. Now you might say, what if I'm against 5 agility heroes with no spells? I'll tell you to stop reading a competitive play guide on how to play legionnaire. I will touch on the controversial item Vanguard in a moment, but basically it's NOT an item you should buy at any stage of any game.

I know you're going to expand on this comment, but I just wanted to note that you do in fact, purchase every component for vanguard between the Headdress and the Heart (and your initial shield). Depending on if you decide to rush Headdress first and walk around with 800ish hp or you decide to pick up a Vitality Booster early you can complete your Vanguard via RoH instead of 2x RoR and then disassemble the pieces to complete your Headdress + Heart.

It will end up giving you about 5-10 minutes of additional damage block and a free +50 HP (actually it costs you 175g since you buy the RoH instead of 2x RoR)

That said, if you play competitively and want to capitalize on your lane presence while jungling or laning you may rush Portal Key, at which point completing vanguard becomes unnecessary as you'll already have around 1k HP through levels (by lvl 8) and rushing your Headdress may be more valuable (the Magic Armor greatly increases your EHP against spells compared to the +250 HP gained from the Vit Booster and +300 gained from the Vanguard).

I do tire of the Axe players that just rush Vanguard and sit in jungle for 25 minutes wasting all of their early game dominance potential -.-

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 12:11 PM

dreamex

09-09-2009, 12:14 PM

Actually, you'll never buy a lifetube if you follow my guide. I'm actually taking a break from the guide, I have a good Soulstealer game I'm going to post on youtube, it's from the first person point of view similar to Nome's videos.

Yeah, which is where the concern is, if you pop 2x RoR and either rush key or headdress there's no reason to ever complete a vanguard.

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 01:06 PM

Yeah, which is where the concern is, if you pop 2x RoR and either rush key or headdress there's no reason to ever complete a vanguard.

I don't see the concern? Vanguard is a bad item.

drasked

09-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Nice guide, but i have a question. Could you explain a bit more on why you think hotbl (vanguard) is a bad item?

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 01:31 PM

Yes I will, the guide isn't even close to finished. I'd say it's at about 25% in terms of content.

Kitad1

09-09-2009, 01:42 PM

So what did you find bad about Element's guide? What do you disagree on?

siswaiaman

09-09-2009, 01:50 PM

I will touch on the controversial item Vanguard in a moment, but basically it's NOT an item you should buy at any stage of any game...

Early game

Laning route
Boots are important on axe, but so is a balance between regen and damage mitigation, so it's important to try and remain even on these. For example, if you don't have phase boots yet, finishing that hood takes away 5 armor, leaving you with very low armor.

Depending on if you decide to rush Headdress first and walk around with 800ish hp or you decide to pick up a Vitality Booster early you can complete your Vanguard via RoH instead of 2x RoR and then disassemble the pieces to complete your Headdress + Heart.

I do tire of the Axe players that just rush Vanguard and sit in jungle for 25 minutes wasting all of their early game dominance potential -.-

Good info on Legionnaire here.

So a noob question... can we stick with HoN references? -> (tangoes, flasks, hood, phase boots, vanguard and axe = runes, potions, Shaman's Headdress, Enhanced Marchers, Helm of the Black Legion (HotBL), and Legionnaire)

I think it would make your guide more authentic. I'm finding that as I get better in HoN I need to forget how some things worked in DotA and there are many players who never played DotA.

just my 2 cents...

theqat

09-09-2009, 01:55 PM

Thanks. I've frequently been frustrated when playing as Legionnaire, so I'll try your tips out!

Inconmon

09-09-2009, 01:59 PM

So whats the deal with Vanguard?

If its any help, this is what I wrote about vanguard/black legion in another forum:

Vanguard (Black Legion) has a simple problem: The damage is reduced before armor is added to the calculation.

Lets say a hero hits you for 150 damage and you have 10 armor..

150 - 40 = 110 damage
110 * 0.375 = 68.75
150 * 0.375 = 93.75
(68.75 * 7 + 93.75 * 3) / 10 = 75.25

So with 10 armor a hero with 150 damage will hit you for 93 damage every hit. When Black Legion kicks in its only 68 damage. But as there is only a 70% chance, so you take an average of 75 damage.
At this point its as good as +7 armor. Even worse... 10 armor is not much. Most heroes will have more which will reduce the usefulness auf Black Legion even more. At least its pretty good versus Pestilence I guess.

Keep in mind that 150 damage is rather low. Thats early midgame for most heroes and soon you face 200+ damage heroes. Then Black Legion is worthless. If you get attacked by a 250 damage hero and still have only 10 armor... that Black Legion is worth only +4 armor. And again, the more armor you have the less effective it becomes.

The real strength of Vanguard or 2x Stout Shield is that is completely negates any creep damage as their damage is very low to begin with. You can basicly tank any amount of creeps without taking damage. As axe need creeps to attack him to farm and to increase his damage output its a great items on him. Its also decent on Zephyr who will clear the forest early and alot.

However if you ever see Magebane or some Int Hero go Black Legion its safe to assume that they are either noobs or retards.

Oh well, but obviously its also a decent items for Chasers. If you plan to constantly aggro creeps while chasing creeps its prolly worth it. But its not a that great idea to begin with anyway. If you want more hitpoints go Behemoths Heart, its awesome on all heroes. If you want physical damage reduction buy a platemail.

....

TL;DR: Its a creep tanking item. If your endgame strategy doesnt involve tanking creeps its prolly a bad idea getting Black Legion.

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 02:00 PM

Helix first only if you're jungling. Helix doesn't scale well, better off getting call.

Helix/Call/Call/Helix/Call/Ult/Call/Helix/Helix.

SolidStroke

09-09-2009, 02:02 PM

Glorify, I like where this is going. If I had to make a suggestion, it'd be to not use DOTA only terms like CM and Vanguard. As much as I know what it is, many people don't.

Utred

09-09-2009, 02:24 PM

I really like this guide so far, can't wait til it's finished.

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 02:27 PM

Glorify, I like where this is going. If I had to make a suggestion, it'd be to not use DOTA only terms like CM and Vanguard. As much as I know what it is, many people don't.

Sorry, as much as I'd like to, it's just habit to type certain names certain ways. I've had to stop myself from saying Axe over Legionnaire, and to be honest it can be quickly cleared up by asking in the thread. This guide is specifically meant for higher levels of play, generally players who just started with HoN won't be at that level yet.

So what did you find bad about Element's guide? What do you disagree on?

I don't want to come off as a dick, Element seems like a pretty cool guy, but ugh. Don't get me started on the guide.

Skill build is completely wrong.
Vanguard, ew.
His core items doesn't have blink.
Vanguard.
Hood is optional?
Vanguard..
Don't take on Centaurs before level 7?

It has a good jungling guide, I probably won't go into such extensive detail because I believe Axe should be left to the lane, not in a jungle, but that alone was enough for me to want to fix what he has in his guide.

He doesn't suggest or say anything about a blink dagger in the guide.

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 02:33 PM

Double post.

Kitad1

09-09-2009, 02:37 PM

Ummm, portal key = dagger. Its his first main item.

And no; I wasn't asking for anyone to be a dick or care for your opinion of the guy. I just want to know how your build differentiates from his and what are the strengths and weaknesses of each.

KSteal4Lols

09-09-2009, 02:38 PM

I know a lot of dota terms now simply because I've heard them a million times...but could we please use hon terms anyways?

Especially if you're going to take the time to highlight something in red like vanguard...just change it to helm of the black legion.

Nome

09-09-2009, 02:56 PM

This is the last hero I expected you to make a guide for O_o

Glorify1

09-09-2009, 03:00 PM

Nome

09-09-2009, 03:16 PM

Yea, go make a thread for that in the Fan Media forum.

dreamex

09-09-2009, 03:17 PM

HotBL is not a bad item if you intend to break it up and consume its pieces for other items anyways (in this case Headdress + Heart) and if you get it as your very first item.

It ends up a bad item if you have a specific build order that is more beneficial where you do not pick up a Beastheart (Vit Booster) early.

In many builds for many heroes the necessity of an early boost in HP means many that would ultimately be building a Heart OR Geometer's Bane may be able to scrape up enough for a Beastheart instead of expending the equivalent gold to piece together two Bracers.

For a hero that will already start with a Shield and will be making a Headdress at some point in time completing the HotBL using a Lifetube is beneficial for the 5-10 minutes of the game where it is relevant, but only if you intend to rush a Beastheart to improve your HP.

If instead, you will rush Key or Headdress outright then there is no reason to buy the Lifetube over 2x Trinkets of Restoration as that is a cheaper build up to Headdress and you are not concerned about your very early game HP, at which point you probably won't buy your Beastheart until you begin building your actual Behemoth's Heart.

It's a bit of a catch22 for Legionnaire. On one hand, he is one hero that benefits a lot from an early HotBL as well as both Behemoth's Heart and Headdress, but on the other side, investing in an early Beastheart also limits your offensive abilities and restricts your dominating early game. Basically if you take that 1100g and put it towards rushing your portal key you will be much more useful early on and then you can begin a slow build up of your Headdress, or you can simply rush your Headdress early to survive an onslaught of nukes if you end up in a lane that demands that situation, it's far and away better mitigation against early harass than HotBL is. So what does HotBL allow you to do? Farm safer and capitalize on catching bad opponents or ganking with favourable runes, a few things that are more relevant in pubs and less relevant in competitive games as bad opponents are few and far apart while Legionnaire should not be rune-whoring or farming extensively early on.

I think Glorify is trying to debunk the theory that Legionnaire should be a jungle hero and to reinforce the notion that Legionnaire has one of the deadliest early games and one should try to capitalize on that to gain dominance during the laning phases. HotBL doesn't help you accomplish that, which is why I'm guessing he's advocating strongly against it.

I can't argue with him on that front, seeing how I'm tired of the HotBL rushing Legionnaires that just sit in forest for 30 minutes and don't contribute at all.

maxxy

09-09-2009, 03:47 PM

Thanks for the guide! Please use HON terms as even though Im starting to learn the DOTA equivalent, it's getting tedious :)

I don't know if this was mentioned or not but using terrify on a person using portal key will stop them from blinking away afaik.

Travakh

09-09-2009, 04:07 PM

I'm surprised you pick up a radiance over a sheepstick, as by the time the game gets anywhere near that far IMO the sheepstick disable is more valuable than the 35 damage aura.

Also a level in battle hunger is good for stopping blinkers et al

EDIT: you will explain double/triple stacking 3rd tier/ancient camps, i assume

pungkow

09-09-2009, 04:26 PM

***disclaimer*** I'm not disputing your experience here. I just want your input on item choices, since Legoionaire is one of my favorite heroes, and I want to play him effectively.

I'm confused about frostfield plate. That reduces attack speed when activated, which means less times getting hit for you. Maybe the intent for that is to wait for them to start attacking others, or for when they try to run away/chase you? If the reason is simply for more mana as stated, why not go for icon of the goddess, then turn that into sac stone, adding to your overall tankyness and mana pool/regen?

dreamex

09-09-2009, 04:30 PM

VyyyE

09-09-2009, 05:34 PM

The DotA terminology definitely isn't making it easier to grasp. It's HoN after all, might as well use the HoN names. Nice guide otherwise.

Bloomie

09-09-2009, 06:00 PM

nice guide glorify.
nice video as well.
much prefer'd guide to higher rated games keep it coming.

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 06:20 PM

Testknight

09-09-2009, 07:22 PM

I wouldn't call it lackluster, just unfinished. And besides, this guide seems to be less about jungle lego anyways; ElementUser already has an excellent guide for jungle Lego (Note: You really can't rig creep ai with taunt in this, as far as I know).

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 07:55 PM

It doesn't go in-depth about initiating and the how-tos of it either. Initiating is a huge test of split second decision making that may end up winning or losing the game. It's one of the purest testaments of skill, prediction, and leadership.

Dustbin

09-09-2009, 08:14 PM

do not buy a lifetube

You can use a lifetube in a headdress recipe instead of 2 trinkets, it's not much different than buying the trinkets except it saves you space for wards/recalls/whatever.

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 08:23 PM

It's also 200 gold more.

ElementUser

09-09-2009, 09:07 PM

Skill build is completely wrong.
Vanguard, ew.
His core items doesn't have blink.
Vanguard.
Hood is optional?
Vanguard..
Don't take on Centaurs before level 7?

It has a good jungling guide, I probably won't go into such extensive detail because I believe Axe should be left to the lane, not in a jungle, but that alone was enough for me to want to fix what he has in his guide.

He doesn't suggest or say anything about a blink dagger in the guide.

Pro guide-writing tip: You should stick to HoN terms in your guide to let everyone know what you're talking about & not just the DotA players, but anyway....

1) Our skill builds are almost exactly the same. To be honest, the order in which you get Taunt/Whirling Blade doesn't really matter too much; 0.5 seconds duration & 5 armor per level vs 25 damage per level. So don't nitpick on that

2) Helm of the Black Legion. Mainly because it's aimed towards the general community and not for the "OMG-PRO" community. Obviously if it was a serious game I'd get something other than HotBL, but it's pretty newbie-friendly and a decent item to get.

3) Yes, Headdress is optional. You can't really tank too many more nukes without getting more HP first. I find I don't need a Headdress when there aren't too many nukes being tossed around, but obviously in a more serious game there'll be lots of nukes flying around

4) Don't take Centaurs ALONE before level 7. Stack it before you take it on. And if you get Wolves, you have to take them on at full HP/very near full HP. Oh and I meant for the hard camps, they're fine when they spawn in medium camps with Ogres/Wild Hunters. Stacking Minotaurs with hard camps (Vultures, Catmen, even Skeletons) is too much pain before level 7.

5) You should really read more extensively, I practically advocated Portal Key as the most important to him

6) I don't know if you've played Legionnaire recently, but there's a very, very noticeable difference between 1 Iron Buckler and 2 Iron Bucklers (for jungling anyway, where you're taking all the hits). I did some mathcraft as well

7) I don't think he should lane, but whatever you think is better for him (mainly because my experiences shown that my laning partner fails for 90% of the games where I lane with Legionnaire)

Yeah I already know you're a higher leveled player than me so I won't argue with you much

P.S. 8) Terrify doesn't cancel Portal Key at the moment (bug) :/.

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 09:26 PM

I don't think his guide is aimed at OMG-PRO either. I don't think any guide can be aimed at the OMG-PRO or it'd say: pick hero, do whatever you want because you're OMG-PRO.

By high-level, he means low level (which is above pub level, mind you) or "organized" play (a term I like). Only DoP plays HON at "high-level". The rest are middle skill scrims to low skill (TDA/DXD) ihs.

This guide seems to be a pub level guide trying to target low-level play. It won't work. You should never max helix before call, just never. Advocating otherwise shows inexperience. Vanguard is by no means a horrible item on axe, two is though, but one is perfectly fine depending on the circumstances.

ElementUser

09-09-2009, 09:32 PM

PandaPanda

09-09-2009, 09:42 PM

Wait, lifetube works in the headdress recipe?

ElementUser

09-09-2009, 09:43 PM

Wait, lifetube works in the headdress recipe?

Er...I don't think so in HoN :(

charlieeeh

09-09-2009, 09:45 PM

Post#23 :/. I don't think he intended to write this for pub-level lol

Also, make a video of laning Legionnaire and/or jungling Legionnaire?
Higher levels of play could refer to "organized" play. That doesn't necessarily mean high-level, which is usually reserved to professionals, or mid-level, which are the high-end scrims, or low skill, the average scrims/dxd/tda/thr2 (I found out it exists).

Either way, this guide fails to achieve any of this. There are NO advanced concepts that any low-skilled play wouldn't already know. The only players that can really benefit are those that have played dota and sucked.

09-09-2009, 09:49 PM

Er...I don't think so in HoN :(
It actually does work last time I tried it.

Paragon

09-09-2009, 09:54 PM

Despite the fact that it is not mentioned in the tooltip, Lifetube can indeed be used to create the Headdress.

Kitad1

09-09-2009, 09:57 PM

Er...I don't think so in HoN :(

Yes it does, I tried it today.

Kerafyrm1

09-09-2009, 11:47 PM

I had 2 decapitates miss today on an omni-repelled hero (no evasion on either one) today so I'm not so sure it pierces magic immunity

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 12:14 AM

Helix first only if you're jungling. Helix doesn't scale well, better off getting call.

Helix/Call/Call/Helix/Call/Ult/Call/Helix/Helix.

The point of terrify isn't to kill per se, it's to stop Blink from working.

Jungling with axe is almost an art, definitely go more in-depth as to the how-to.

You're not giving vanguard enough credit. You're focusing too much on the block, when that's a very small part of Vanguard.

You're saying it's for high-level, yet half your text is about pulling and the advantages/disadvantages of it. Pulling is VERY elementary, most pubs do it. Warding is common sense. Go more in-depth, like a lot more in-depth. Tri-stacking, for example. Rigging creep ai with call etc.

Lackluster guide so far imo. The guide isn't finished.
Spin is far better than taunt.
Blink currently isn't stopped by terrify.
Jungling with axe is worse than laning axe.
You cannot call neutral creeps.

Perhaps you can wait for the guide to be finished, and get your facts straight before trying to tell me otherwise.

Also, make a video of laning Legionnaire and/or jungling Legionnaire?

Well, I probably won't do this until I finish the guide, which I will work on later today once everyone I HoN with is asleep.

charlieeeh

09-10-2009, 12:40 AM

Spin is far better than taunt.
I think every single competitive player begs to differ.

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 12:43 AM

I think every single competitive player begs to differ.

I think you should keep your opinion out of my guides.

Considering you've played a grand total of 15 games, stomping EM pubs, and you're barely even holding 50% win rate. I mean, who are you to tell me? I don't think I've ever lost a 'high skill' scrim on ggc with the skill build I've suggested.

Valor2002

09-10-2009, 03:02 AM

A Video of Legionaire would be awesome!! Because I just dont get how to play him right. I had 2 or 3 decent games with him, but mostly I suck :(

charlieeeh

09-10-2009, 03:40 AM

lol em pub as insult? You're as pathetic as the other guy who tried to use stats as an insult. learnto600exp/mininpubs.

High level? I thought we've been through this.

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 04:35 AM

Stop posting in my threads, I'll talk to a mod if you continue.

Nakazatil

09-10-2009, 08:55 AM

Good guide man, do you have any replays from HoN by chance, doesnt really matter which hero.

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 09:43 AM

I have replays from Soulstealer, you can find them in my SF guide or in the media forum.

charlieeeh

09-10-2009, 10:49 AM

Stop posting in my threads, I'll talk to a mod if you continue.
Oh no.

Anyway, the vanguard justification you added is still weak. The block is a very small part of vanguard, yet that's all you talk about. Early on, the EHP it gives alone is enough to make it better than in tanking both physical and magical hits than hood. Later on, you're really only paying 400-500 gold for regen that you don't "need" per se, same goes for hood/pipe, everything else you would've had/wanted. The main gripe is that vanguard is an early game item, but the fact is, it's just cost effective for what it does. You're still living in the pre-5000-buffs-to-vanguard era.

dreamex

09-10-2009, 11:14 AM

Oh no.

Anyway, the vanguard justification you added is still weak. The block is a very small part of vanguard, yet that's all you talk about. Early on, the EHP it gives alone is enough to make it better than in tanking both physical and magical hits than hood. Later on, you're really only paying 400-500 gold for regen that you don't "need" per se, same goes for hood/pipe, everything else you would've had/wanted. The main gripe is that vanguard is an early game item, but the fact is, it's just cost effective for what it does. You're still living in the pre-5000-buffs-to-vanguard era.

It is dependent on how aggressive you want to be, Vanguard delays key and if you rush key you are already past the phase where Vanguard is most effective, so you may as well roll straight to hood.

I already mentioned in my first post that vanguard can be broken down to its elements that you will buy anyways so completing it early has no draw back outside of delaying your key or hood, I personally wouldn't rush hood over vanguard but some people may see the benefit...

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 11:31 AM

Dustbin

09-10-2009, 11:50 AM

tl;dr

get >1500 psr and we'll talk

How about you bring up his 11 games played instead of making yourself look like an ass.

cokeandhoes

09-10-2009, 12:17 PM

Well I'd just like to say I enjoyed both guides lol. First one made me like Legionnaire, and this one improved my game, in that I actively partake in more ganks earlier on where as with the other guide I tended to jungle till lev 7-8 before helping out.

Anyway, a video similar to your Soulstealer one would be really nice, thanks.

kyneS

09-10-2009, 01:44 PM

Obviously alot of people know this (what i'm going to say ) but just as a reminder:

I think the point of vanguard is to allow you to skip a wave and get all creeps in the next wave, propelling you for a faster dagger. The disadvantage of it is that if you're behind in getting it in time, you really delay your dagger. So alot of it is how you are farming; the needs of your team (whether it is some push strat/gank/or turtle or some other thing).

Its very situational whether you choose to get it or not. Whatever the item choice, solid play and decision making is much more important when there are items that definitely work on a hero (but there are also situations where its not optimum). As long as you have a general idea of item choice leading to increased utility its not a huge deal whereas lack of map awareness, lack of mobility, lack of general skill is a HUGE problem in probably 99% of hon players.

r00kie

09-10-2009, 02:21 PM

Axe is one of my favorite heroes to play, just don't get to play him often because of how the HoN pool is.

Go nome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EYzahGyygE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixtFSw634Kw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDL667tyJ7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn6LNKK4IWE

Was that pub stomping ? It looked really easy, maybe you are just too pro for them ;)

EDIT : Btw your replay is still really sick, I learned alot through it, it makes me want to try Soul Stealer :)

ElementUser

09-10-2009, 02:30 PM

If Vanguard/HotBL was disassemble-able, would you change your mind?

Inconmon

09-10-2009, 02:42 PM

If Vanguard/HotBL was disassemble-able, would you change your mind?

I am too lazy to read the thread again, but didnt he already say that vanguard is okay for legionnaire but simply not good (enough) for real competitive games?
In most public hon games you will prolly always do better as legionnaire with vanguard first because of the comfort and early strength it provides.

Glorify1

09-10-2009, 02:45 PM

How about you bring up his 11 games played instead of making yourself look like an ass.

Because I honestly don't care? He's spammed my threads with useless babble, and I've already asked him to stop.

If Vanguard/HotBL was disassemble-able, would you change your mind?

Still a waste of money and time.

I am too lazy to read the thread again, but didnt he already say that vanguard is okay for legionnaire but simply not good (enough) for real competitive games?
In most public hon games you will prolly always do better as legionnaire with vanguard first because of the comfort and early strength it provides.

No, I said you should never buy it under any circumstances.

Well I'd just like to say I enjoyed both guides lol. First one made me like Legionnaire, and this one improved my game, in that I actively partake in more ganks earlier on where as with the other guide I tended to jungle till lev 7-8 before helping out.

Anyway, a video similar to your Soulstealer one would be really nice, thanks.

Both guides? I'm a little confused as if you're talking about another axe guide and my guide, or my previous guide and this one. Either way, I've figured out how to record in game sound, however it will not record anything I say. It also seems to record the music I'm currently listening to. It's just a matter of getting on and playing a higher level game with axe.

Travakh

09-10-2009, 04:48 PM

Both guides? I'm a little confused as if you're talking about another axe guide and my guide, or my previous guide and this one. Either way, I've figured out how to record in game sound, however it will not record anything I say. It also seems to record the music I'm currently listening to. It's just a matter of getting on and playing a higher level game with axe.

Open the video in audacity, play it back and record your commentary on a separate track, then merge the two tracks.

Dustbin

09-10-2009, 05:00 PM

If Vanguard/HotBL was disassemble-able, would you change your mind?

It is disassemble-able? I've done it a bunch of times to make behemoths heart.

sneakysob

09-10-2009, 05:56 PM

Good guide.

Look forward to the FPVoD ^^

ElementUser

09-10-2009, 06:32 PM

It is disassemble-able? I've done it a bunch of times to make behemoths heart.

Oh, so it is! I didn't know that lol

Thanks for the info :P

@Glorify: Mind telling me why it's still a worthless item if you can disassemble it?

sneakysob

09-10-2009, 06:40 PM

Oh, so it is! I didn't know that lol

Thanks for the info :P

@Glorify: Mind telling me why it's still a worthless item if you can disassemble it?

How do you disassemble something? ...

ElementUser

09-10-2009, 06:56 PM

How do you disassemble something? ...

I was wondering too lol

Turns out you need to disassemble it in your stash by left-clicking it

charlieeeh

09-10-2009, 07:36 PM

sneakysob

09-10-2009, 09:09 PM

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 02:03 AM

lol useless babble that you won't seem to accept, no matter how true.

I'm sorry I'm not one of the people that sees your rank and automatically jizzes over every word you type. I'm sorry I'm an independent thinker, and while my competitive days are "officially" behind me [next to my high school schedule], I still occasionally ring for some mid-skill na clans that I know personally like loc, an, db, and trog (pub stomping pickup league thr is just funner and schedule free :p). And having played in ihcs2 and cal-m/i does give me some say in what constitutes high-level play and what doesn't. I find no fault in passing on the thinking of someone who's been there.

Anyone who's played dxd/tda can muster up 1800+ ratings, that doesn't prove anything. You're truly pathetic if you think hon stats matter (isn't it still beta?), and that the first 11 games is a accurate data sample to pass judgment on. I don't really feel the need to bolster my ego by telling everyone my dota pub 13/3/8 ratio. If my mechanics understanding is any indication of how much I understand the game, compared to my kdr/whatever stats you guys judge "skill" on, I don't think there's much to say in that department.

EDIT: Just an fyi, 4 of the games listed were played by my friends when I was showing them the game. I didn't think it'd actually come back and bite me in the ass. Without them, I'd be closer to 11/3/6, god help me, I'm insecure. brb while i sig stats

tl;dr, if any dxd/tda player can go 1800+ you should be able to do it easy amirite? Your 25 minute EM games aren't a show of skill, back up your theorycraft with some proof you have even a slightest idea how to play this game and people might listen to your non-sense.

Mind telling me why it's still a worthless item if you can disassemble it?

Alright, you do not want to(and are sometimes incapable) of saving 875 for the item. If you are capable of saving this amount of gold, you should automatically try at get 950 for the helm, as it is FAR more useful. The thing is, while a lifetube is helpful, you have other items that are more useful depending on the amount of gold you can farm. If you bought helm first, you don't have to save 875 to buy a lifetube, you just use the next 2 350s you farm to buy your rings equating out to 7 regen and a lot of armor. Now at this point, you have basically three goals as what you need to buy and they are Phase boots, (finish) hood, blink. Now if you're taking a lot of magic damage, you obviously finish hood, which requires you to buy armor(chainmail). It's generally most effective to finish phase boots before your blink, if you require finishing your hood early on, but either way there is no way you can fit vanguard into this build without seriously slowing it down. Like, even if you bought a lifetube there would be no way you'd even complete it into a vanguard. You're basically choosing between vanguard and hood, and personally hood is far more useful.

charlieeeh

09-11-2009, 02:23 AM

The proof are in the games. I've posted several in your presence before, but you've disregarded all of them. You'll find just as many, if not more, vanguards than hood/pipes. But then again, what do top asian teams know right? You're clearly high skill.

lol ihcs is em k

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 04:15 AM

Valor2002

09-11-2009, 04:33 AM

GUYS PLS! It is HIS guide, and when he does not like HotbL then it is, how it is! Write your own guide if it bothers you so much.

ElementUser

09-11-2009, 08:16 AM

Nevermind. Btw why isn't your forum name Angel? <_<

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 08:35 AM

dreamex

09-11-2009, 09:21 AM

Well Glorify was my primary name until I asked Fielding if I could send myself an invite and use another name. I preordered under Angel because I like that name better, but never really switched because it doesn't really matter at the moment.

I explained vanguard the best I could. It blocks before armor reduction, thus it's useless lategame against everything except creeps, neutrals, and polly wards.

You're right, if you were intending on keeping Vanguard to late game.

Based on your justification, I can see situations where completing vanguard, phase, blink then disassembling Vanguard to complete Hood/Heart may be beneficial, but in most scrim level play you'll probably benefit from an early hood to ward off harass more then a vanguard.

Nidhogg

09-11-2009, 10:24 AM

Vanguard single handedly makes Pollywog's ult useless on you. It's not completely useless 100% of the time ;)

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 12:19 PM

Stout does just about the same thing with high armor.

Nedrapter

09-11-2009, 02:25 PM

It's an excellent guide with uch effort put on it. Good Job. However there are flaws in it.

Skill build and explanation
1. Whirling Blade
2. Taunt
3. Whirling Blade
4. Taunt
5. Whirling Blade
6. Decapitate
7. Whirling Blade
8. Taunt
9. Taunt
10. Stats/Terrify
11. Decaptitate
12-15. Stats
16. Decapitate
17-25. Stats/Terrify

- I don't know if this skill build is referring to competitive gaming, casual gaming, or both.
If competitive gaming is included too, i have to point a mistake in this skill build.

When laning (and not jungling) Skilling having on 5th level 3 levels of Whirling Blade and 2 levels of Taunt, is wrong. Why?

The reason is simple, yet may not be understandable by everyone. 25 damage more with the is far more insignificant than 0.5 seconds of disable. Don't think childish and see the 0.X number as too small (when the solid 25 numbers doesnt look like that). 0.5 seconds more are of great importance is such levels.
-Lets take a hero with low attack speed like Pebbles. 0.64 attacks per second.
And a hero with high attack speed like Magebane 0.84 attacks per second.

When taunting both heroes (lets say they are ready to attack by the time you taunted them you got:
Pebbles:
level 2 Taunt: 0.64 x 2 seconds = 1.28 attacks.
Level 3 Taunt: 0.64 x 2.5 seconds = 1.6 attacks.
Magebane:
Level 2 Taunt: 0.84 x 2 seconds = 1.68 attacks
Level 3 Taunt: 0.84 x 2.5 seconds = 2.1 attacks.

Results? Heroes like Pebbles would still do 1 attack, when Heroes like Magebane will attack twice. Making possible for Whirlwind Blade to occur twice.
Meaning 150 x 2 times > 175 x 1 time. That's the 1st issue.

Lets say you Taunt the enemy along with some enemy creeps that have taken damage.
With Taunt lvl 2 and Whirlwind lvl 3 you:
Hold the enemies for shorter time, while dealing more dmg with your Whirlwind. Meaning that if any creeps have about 150-175 life that time, they will die with the 1st triggered Whirlwind, decreasing your chances to get a 2nd.
With Taunt lvl 3 and Whirlwind lvl 2 you:
Hold the enemies for longer time, while dealing less dmg with your Whilrwind. Meaning that the previous creeps (150-175 life) you survive the 1st Whirlwind and still attack you to trigger a 2nd.
Result: Higher chances to Trigger Whirlwind with the 2nd build, and and more lvl 2 whirlwinds deal more dmg than less lvl 3.

3rd Issue.
In such early levels armor values have strong effect in game. 15 armor for 2.5 seconds can be compared with 10 armor for 2 seconds? I want to believe that this point is quite clear and i wont explain it further.

4th issue.
Holding the enemy for as long as possible (when you are laning) is of major importance. Your mate's spell may not be ready, even 0.5 seconds give him a higher chance to recast a spell which will be FAR more important than 25 extra damage of lvl 3 Whirlwind (which is the Damage of a Warlock/Archer's hit if im not mistaken). Might as well trigger another hit of your Tower (they got quite low attack cooldown) in these 0.5 seconds or help your mate get slighty out of enemy spell's range (which "Slighty" makes him live or die)

That's what i wanted to mention. I've been playing competitive Dota for long time and leveling 3 whilwind at lvl 5 is considered serious mistake. However is this guide isn't referred only for pub use, just ignore the above (too much details for casual players).

Vanguard
http://honwiki.net/w/images/f/f4/Helm_of_the_Black_Legionitem.gif
I'd like to take this time out to address an item that you should never buy on any hero, this one included. We all know why people get this, it's damage mitigation, and it has just about everything Legionnaire needs early game. However, there is a gigantic flaw with getting this item, you get everything that it has and more buy building other core items. Now, sure, this item does reduce quite a bit of damage early on from both hero and creep attacks, but so does a normal stout shield! You're paying 2k gold for regen you DON'T need, and a moderate increase in life that you also do not need in the form of vanguard anyways. You can use the booster to make your heart later on, and lifetube is simply not needed. It's much cheaper to buy two rings, and you're only missing out on 1 point of regen. The 7 regen from helm+rings is enough to sustain you during the lane or jungle phases, and once you finish hood and phase you have sufficient creep reduction with the amount of armor and regen you have with basically 250 gold stout shield. This item delays all of the items you need to get as soon as possible, and I'll go ahead and quickly list them: Phase boots, Blink, Hood. These are THE core items, you need phase for armor and chase/escape, Blink for initiating, and hood as your staple regen and spell mitigation. You already have stout and armor, and that's enough to reduce most incoming creep damage, and you'll never be able to mitigate all damage from enemy heroes. Finally, this item scales poorly late game since it reduces damage before armor reduction. A quick example: Assume you have a vanguard, and you're taking 200 damage. Vanguard procs, causing the damage you would of taken to be reduced to 160. Lets also assume, since this is generally the case, you're now lacking armor because instead of opting for phase boots you bought vanguard. So your reduction is only 20%, causing the damage you've taken to be reduced by 32.
160 - 32 = 128

Anyways, the two main points you should take away from section of the guide is:
-Vanguard delays your important, core items too long for little to no benefit
-Vanguard's early buffs do not warrant building it when you can already buy what it provides via core items you'll need later

The 2nd thing i find as a mistake is the Vanguard must-not-have opinion of yours.

As you accuratively categorize items as core and luxury, the Shaman's Headdress doesn't belong to the core. Helm of the Black Legion does.
Why?
Your are an initiator, we all agree on that. Your role is to blink in, Taunt as many enemies as possible to give your allies the chance to cast their spells freely and accurately. Until that point you just need a Portal Key and enough mana to cast a Taunt to fullfil that role. Now it's survival issue coming forth. When taunting, you get HIT, by physical normal hits, NOT spells. Shaman Headress' magic armor doesn't help you with that, not at all. Helm of the Black Legion does.A bit before tauninting end, some enemy will be at critical HP (with the help of your allies ofc) you cast your Decapitate, and kaboom one down.Your ROLE IS DONE. Your team battle's winner should already be judged by that point. After taunting is over, your damaged enemy will try to cast their spells as fast as possible. Oke here Shaman Headress helps you i'm not denying it. But HotBL's +300 HP does too!
Pyromancer's so called highest nuke in game at that point (we are talking about mid game when Legionaire would have this items) does 675 Damage -25% from your Magic armor, 506 Damage, with your 300 extra hp, you actually have taken 206 Damage from the best nuke in game.
Why then HotBL is so bad, not worthing buying it?
To make things more clear, when the game has more physical attackers than nukers, why Shaman Headress is worth buying it? HotBL is worthy on all cases.
I've got to counter your point about delaying too. No i don't have to, it's already countered by a fact that you didn't considered.
Core items, Luxury items, you said these yourself. When the game goes from Core to Luxury, something isn't right. It lasts longer than expected. A team with a Legionaire with his Core items should be able to take a permanent advantage and win this game. But my point is: HotBL delays what? the luxury items? Is that a correct way of thinking? no, luxury items are Luxury. you don't sacrifice your core build to speed up a luxury build.

That's all. I apologise for my writing attitude that may see aggresive but i get passionate (and sometimes i read my posts as a monologue to a hypothetical crowd). You have a great guide, consider these facts and you will make it greater.

dreamex

09-11-2009, 02:38 PM

It's an excellent guide with uch effort put on it. Good Job. However there are flaws in it.

- I don't know if this skill build is referring to competitive gaming, casual gaming, or both.
If competitive gaming is included too, i have to point a mistake in this skill build.

When laning (and not jungling) Skilling having on 5th level 3 levels of Whirling Blade and 2 levels of Taunt, is wrong. Why?

The reason is simple, yet may not be understandable by everyone. 25 damage more with the is far more insignificant than 0.5 seconds of disable. Don't think childish and see the 0.X number as too small (when the solid 25 numbers doesnt look like that). 0.5 seconds more are of great importance is such levels.
-Lets take a hero with low attack speed like Pebbles. 0.64 attacks per second.
And a hero with high attack speed like Magebane 0.84 attacks per second.

When taunting both heroes (lets say they are ready to attack by the time you taunted them you got:
Pebbles:
level 2 Taunt: 0.64 x 2 seconds = 1.28 attacks.
Level 3 Taunt: 0.64 x 2.5 seconds = 1.6 attacks.
Magebane:
Level 2 Taunt: 0.84 x 2 seconds = 1.68 attacks
Level 3 Taunt: 0.84 x 2.5 seconds = 2.1 attacks.

Results? Heroes like Pebbles would still do 1 attack, when Heroes like Magebane will attack twice. Making possible for Whirlwind Blade to occur twice.
Meaning 150 x 2 times > 175 x 1 time. That's the 1st issue.

Lets say you Taunt the enemy along with some enemy creeps that have taken damage.
With Taunt lvl 2 and Whirlwind lvl 3 you:
Hold the enemies for shorter time, while dealing more dmg with your Whirlwind. Meaning that if any creeps have about 150-175 life that time, they will die with the 1st triggered Whirlwind, decreasing your chances to get a 2nd.
With Taunt lvl 3 and Whirlwind lvl 2 you:
Hold the enemies for longer time, while dealing less dmg with your Whilrwind. Meaning that the previous creeps (150-175 life) you survive the 1st Whirlwind and still attack you to trigger a 2nd.
Result: Higher chances to Trigger Whirlwind with the 2nd build, and and more lvl 2 whirlwinds deal more dmg than less lvl 3.

3rd Issue.
In such early levels armor values have strong effect in game. 15 armor for 2.5 seconds can be compared with 10 armor for 2 seconds? I want to believe that this point is quite clear and i wont explain it further.

4th issue.
Holding the enemy for as long as possible (when you are laning) is of major importance. Your mate's spell may not be ready, even 0.5 seconds give him a higher chance to recast a spell which will be FAR more important than 25 extra damage of lvl 3 Whirlwind (which is the Damage of a Warlock/Archer's hit if im not mistaken). Might as well trigger another hit of your Tower (they got quite low attack cooldown) in these 0.5 seconds or help your mate get slighty out of enemy spell's range (which "Slighty" makes him live or die)

That's what i wanted to mention. I've been playing competitive Dota for long time and leveling 3 whilwind at lvl 5 is considered serious mistake. However is this guide isn't referred only for pub use, just ignore the above (too much details for casual players).

The 2nd thing i find as a mistake is the Vanguard must-not-have opinion of yours.

As you accuratively categorize items as core and luxury, the Shaman's Headdress doesn't belong to the core. Helm of the Black Legion does.
Why?
Your are an initiator, we all agree on that. Your role is to blink in, Taunt as many enemies as possible to give your allies the chance to cast their spells freely and accurately. Until that point you just need a Portal Key and enough mana to cast a Taunt to fullfil that role. Now it's survival issue coming forth. When taunting, you get HIT, by physical normal hits, NOT spells. Shaman Headress' magic armor doesn't help you with that, not at all. Helm of the Black Legion does.A bit before tauninting end, some enemy will be at critical HP (with the help of your allies ofc) you cast your Decapitate, and kaboom one down.Your ROLE IS DONE. Your team battle's winner should already be judged by that point. After taunting is over, your damaged enemy will try to cast their spells as fast as possible. Oke here Shaman Headress helps you i'm not denying it. But HotBL's +300 HP does too!
Pyromancer's so called highest nuke in game at that point (we are talking about mid game when Legionaire would have this items) does 675 Damage -25% from your Magic armor, 506 Damage, with your 300 extra hp, you actually have taken 206 Damage from the best nuke in game.
Why then HotBL is so bad, not worthing buying it?
To make things more clear, when the game has more physical attackers than nukers, why Shaman Headress is worth buying it? HotBL is worthy on all cases.
I've got to counter your point about delaying too. No i don't have to, it's already countered by a fact that you didn't considered.
Core items, Luxury items, you said these yourself. When the game goes from Core to Luxury, something isn't right. It lasts longer than expected. A team with a Legionaire with his Core items should be able to take a permanent advantage and win this game. But my point is: HotBL delays what? the luxury items? Is that a correct way of thinking? no, luxury items are Luxury. you don't sacrifice your core build to speed up a luxury build.

That's all. I apologise for my writing attitude that may see aggresive but i get passionate (and sometimes i read my posts as a monologue to a hypothetical crowd). You have a great guide, consider these facts and you will make it greater.

Core is Blink Dagger that is the only thing that is Core.

Glorify thinks that the 175g you save by buying 2 rings over a lifetube is game breaking enough that you should NEVER complete HotBL.

I disagree, if you are going to buy an early Beastheart to hedge incoming damage you should complete HotBL because you've already committed to delaying your Portal Key, and you can disassemble your HotBL for your Headdress + Heart afterwards, the difference is ONLY 175g between Completing your HotBL FIRST while you save up the 950 + 400g to complete your Headdress at which point you may freely disassemble the HotBL back to its base elements.

However, if there is no reason to buy a Beastheart early, then rushing Portal Key allows Legionnaire to be more aggressive early on and by the time you can save up another 2K you won't need HotBL anymore and you should instead opt for completing the Headdress.

I agree with Glorify's logic because in certain lanes and playstyles you have no strong need for the Beastheart or completion of HotBL and you are much better off rushing your Portal Key, but I disagree with his adamancy that HotBL will never be valuable, especially if he advocates an early Beastheart in some situations.

charlieeeh

09-11-2009, 02:57 PM

Until you stop basing everything in the guide on what your own experiences are (which is mostly low-mid skill scrimming judging from your vods), no one past pub level is going to take it seriously. It quite literally offers nothing in terms of new information, but at the same time, flooded with flaws, however minor they may/may not be. You have to incorporate the thinking of people who's played at the upper echelon of competitive gaming, I don't see why you wouldn't. Accept the fact that you may be wrong, and that there are better players than you.

I'm sure you're sitting high and mighty on your high-horse right now, but until you scrim true high-level (competitive) teams like dop (don't they play hon?), I don't think you should bolster the kind of ego you have right now.

Blink is core. Hood is nice to have. So is vanguard.

175 gold is not sufficient reasoning. Better players consistently "waste" (using the word waste, because you'll almost never find them sell their branches) 159 gold every game. More actually, if you factor tps in cases they clearly could not have gotten away.

Nedrapter

09-11-2009, 03:07 PM

However, if there is no reason to buy a Beastheart early, then rushing Portal Key allows Legionnaire to be more aggressive early on and by the time you can save up another 2K you won't need HotBL anymore and you should instead opt for completing the Headdress.

I agree with Glorify's logic because in certain lanes and playstyles you have no strong need for the Beastheart or completion of HotBL and you are much better off rushing your Portal Key, but I disagree with his adamancy that HotBL will never be valuable, especially if he advocates an early Beastheart in some situations.

I never pointed out which of the core items you buy 1st and which 2nd. That's up to you judging by your game.
Also if you rush a Portal Key ealy to be more aggressive, how is possible that you wont need a HotBL after? with a Portal key only it's possible to die while taunting.

Until you stop basing everything in the guide on what your own experiences are (which is mostly low-mid skill scrimming judging from your vods),

Well you are wrong here, totally, if you are referring to my post.

dreamex

09-11-2009, 03:32 PM

I never pointed out which of the core items you buy 1st and which 2nd. That's up to you judging by your game.
Also if you rush a Portal Key ealy to be more aggressive, how is possible that you wont need a HotBL after? with a Portal key only it's possible to die while taunting.

Well you are wrong here, totally, if you are referring to my post.

Because if you rush your Portal Key first you are better off just buying a Beastheart and building a Headdress instead of completing HotBL.

After the first 10-15 minutes the +20 damage block on HotBL is much less valuable and it just goes downhill from there.

Since you love math here's some of mine:

Realistically, for Legionnaire against decent competition without exploiting too much on bad players you will farm your first 2k around level 6-7.

At which point his base stats give him 910 HP, the extra 300 HP that Vanguard gives you is a 33% increase in eHP.

If you instead, expended that first 2k on a Portal Key, odds are you'll get your next 2k around level 10-11.

At which point his base stats give him 1100 HP, the extra 300 HP that Vanguard gives you is a 27% increase in eHP.

At this time, if you had instead spent the 2k on a Headdress, you would've increased your Spell Resistance from 25% to 48%

Using your Pyromancer argument, his 675 Damage spell which would've done 506 damage would now only do 351

1400 - 506 = 894 (vanguard)
1100 - 351 = 749 (headdress)

Add in his other two nukes at 280 Damage a pop they would do 210/145 respectively:

1400 - 506 - 210 - 210 = 474 (vanguard)
1100 - 351 - 145 - 145 = 459 (headdress)

You already can see that the Vanguard/Headdress argument is at a stand still by midgame making it not entirely frugal to invest in a Vanguard this late into the game...

Nedrapter

09-11-2009, 03:48 PM

Because if you rush your Portal Key first you are better off just buying a Beastheart and building a Headdress instead of completing HotBL.

After the first 10-15 minutes the +20 damage block on HotBL is much less valuable and it just goes downhill from there.

Since you love math here's some of mine:

Realistically, for Legionnaire against decent competition without exploiting too much on bad players you will farm your first 2k around level 6-7.

At which point his base stats give him 910 HP, the extra 300 HP that Vanguard gives you is a 33% increase in eHP.

If you instead, expended that first 2k on a Portal Key, odds are you'll get your next 2k around level 10-11.

At which point his base stats give him 1100 HP, the extra 300 HP that Vanguard gives you is a 27% increase in eHP.

At this time, if you had instead spent the 2k on a Headdress, you would've increased your Spell Resistance from 25% to 48%

Using your Pyromancer argument, his 675 Damage spell which would've done 506 damage would now only do 351

1400 - 506 = 894 (vanguard)
1100 - 351 = 749 (headdress)

Add in his other two nukes at 280 Damage a pop they would do 210/145 respectively:

1400 - 506 - 210 - 210 = 474 (vanguard)
1100 - 351 - 145 - 145 = 459 (headdress)

You already can see that the Vanguard/Headdress argument is at a stand still by midgame making it not entirely frugal to invest in a Vanguard this late into the game...

It's +40 block for HotBL not 20, 40 makes a difference. Also since you see that until imd game there is not much difference between them regarding Pyro's nukes, which are quite a bit. And THERE is much difference in them regarding physical attacks. You are saying yourself actually that until mid game at least, you better have HotBL than Shaman's Headress

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 03:52 PM

When taunting both heroes (lets say they are ready to attack by the time you taunted them you got:
Pebbles:
level 2 Taunt: 0.64 x 2 seconds = 1.28 attacks.
Level 3 Taunt: 0.64 x 2.5 seconds = 1.6 attacks.
Magebane:
Level 2 Taunt: 0.84 x 2 seconds = 1.68 attacks
Level 3 Taunt: 0.84 x 2.5 seconds = 2.1 attacks.

Insignificant, since the whirl goes into cooldown, the chances of this extra attack actually making a difference in if you whirl again is slim to none. The higher the damage the better, as you run along side them and allow whirls to continue procing from ranged heroes. While taunt is good to have, it's only there as a place holder to agro creeps and allow better positioning.

Lets say you Taunt the enemy along with some enemy creeps that have taken damage.
With Taunt lvl 2 and Whirlwind lvl 3 you:
Hold the enemies for shorter time, while dealing more dmg with your Whirlwind. Meaning that if any creeps have about 150-175 life that time, they will die with the 1st triggered Whirlwind, decreasing your chances to get a 2nd.
With Taunt lvl 3 and Whirlwind lvl 2 you:
Hold the enemies for longer time, while dealing less dmg with your Whilrwind. Meaning that the previous creeps (150-175 life) you survive the 1st Whirlwind and still attack you to trigger a 2nd.
Result: Higher chances to Trigger Whirlwind with the 2nd build, and and more lvl 2 whirlwinds deal more dmg than less lvl 3.

Let's remember the goal here isn't always hero kills, but simply to harass a hero out of the lane. There is far more down time with a hero running back and having to TP, especially at lower levels when this is most applicable. Creep kills are more important than hero kills.

3rd Issue.
In such early levels armor values have strong effect in game. 15 armor for 2.5 seconds can be compared with 10 armor for 2 seconds? I want to believe that this point is quite clear and i wont explain it further.

If you read anything I wrote, you'd know that chainmail and HoIW are important to buy early. The armor is quite useless as you reduce all of the creep damage and the only thing you're truly reducing with it is hero attacks. Armor is important for jungling, where the creeps hit harder, and you don't spam taunt in the jungle.

4th issue.
Holding the enemy for as long as possible (when you are laning) is of major importance. Your mate's spell may not be ready, even 0.5 seconds give him a higher chance to recast a spell which will be FAR more important than 25 extra damage of lvl 3 Whirlwind (which is the Damage of a Warlock/Archer's hit if im not mistaken). Might as well trigger another hit of your Tower (they got quite low attack cooldown) in these 0.5 seconds or help your mate get slighty out of enemy spell's range (which "Slighty" makes him live or die)

It really isn't, points in whirl lower the cooldown, which means more procs in less amount of time. The real point of levelling whirl is for damage, which is more important than a fraction of a second of hold time.

I've played competitive DotA for a long time too, and we never lost a match in which I played Axe.

When taunting, you get HIT, by physical normal hits, NOT spells.

Stout reduces all creep damage. Vanguard's reduction is minimal in comparison to opting for armor. This isn't pub DotA, you'll get blown the **** up without a hood.

Your team battle's winner should already be judged by that point.

This is incorrect, unless you've taken out the opposing initiator you're likely to get the tables turned right back onto you. You assume that you've taunted their entire team and followed up with massive aoe and stuns, this is never the case. If you've taunted their entire team, they automatically lose the team battle, it's decided the second you hti their entire team with a 300 aoe spell. This however is never the case in higher level games, normally people spread out, and at best you get two or three. Even then, there are others aroudn that will blow you up without a hood, and vanguard reduces NOTHING. Buy a platemail, builds into something you need later and reduces more damage. Costs less too.

But HotBL's +300 HP does too!

If you weren't using a bad item, you'd be reducing more physical damage and have lategame plug items. Either way, even without platemail, you're still reducing all creep damage and decent chunks of hero damage(which is generally meaningless, what hurts is the spells not the auto attacks at this point), and you're well on your way to a heart.
1550+2150+2050 = core
1550+2150+2050+2225 = unnecessarily delaying luxury items

Luxury items are items you're expected to purchase in games, but aren't absolutely necessary. Axe can function with just those three items, but he greatly increases his strength with a heart. SF can function with bottle/blink/travels/bkb, but he'll put out so much more dps with luxury items. He's expected to get there, but he doesn't need them to fulfill his role.

The fact that you're critiquing a partial guide as a whole concerns me, as does your random color patterns you've placed throughout your response.

Core is Blink Dagger that is the only thing that is Core.
Phase is your core chase, positioning, and armor.
Blink is your core initiating.
Hood is your core tanking item.

Glorify thinks that the 175g you save by buying 2 rings over a lifetube is game breaking enough that you should NEVER complete HotBL.

If you read my response, you'd know that it's not the act of getting 175 gold, it's the act of buying better items. If the difference was you 175 for an early vanguard that could be disassembled for your other core items obviously you'd buy it. It's more reduction, and is gone after it's brief effectiveness has disapated. However, this is not the case, you're delaying your core items(there is three of them) by 1100 gold for minor effectiveness increase. Also, you're neglecting your own early game regen. HoIW will give you beef to tank more early game hits in addition to regen, followed by rings when you get the gold is overall more effective than buying a lifetube.

I disagree, if you are going to buy an early Beastheart to hedge incoming damage you should complete HotBL because you've already committed to delaying your Portal Key, and you can disassemble your HotBL for your Headdress + Heart afterwards, the difference is ONLY 175g between Completing your HotBL FIRST while you save up the 950 + 400g to complete your Headdress at which point you may freely disassemble the HotBL back to its base elements.

You don't buy an early beast heart to buff up, you don't need it.

However, if there is no reason to buy a Beastheart early, then rushing Portal Key allows Legionnaire to be more aggressive early on and by the time you can save up another 2K you won't need HotBL anymore and you should instead opt for completing the Headdress.

This right here, except assume there is never a reason to buy a beastheart early(there isn't).

I agree with Glorify's logic because in certain lanes and playstyles you have no strong need for the Beastheart or completion of HotBL and you are much better off rushing your Portal Key, but I disagree with his adamancy that HotBL will never be valuable, especially if he advocates an early Beastheart in some situations.

The only time I'll ever advocate an early beast heart is buying it before your reaver, which at that point you've already completed hood.

Until you stop basing everything in the guide on what your own experiences are (which is mostly low-mid skill scrimming judging from your vods), no one past pub level is going to take it seriously. It quite literally offers nothing in terms of new information, but at the same time, flooded with flaws, however minor they may/may not be. You have to incorporate the thinking of people who's played at the upper echelon of competitive gaming, I don't see why you wouldn't. Accept the fact that you may be wrong, and that there are better players than you.

I'm sure you're sitting high and mighty on your high-horse right now, but until you scrim true high-level (competitive) teams like dop (don't they play hon?), I don't think you should bolster the kind of ego you have right now.

Blink is core. Hood is nice to have. So is vanguard.

175 gold is not sufficient reasoning. Better players consistently "waste" (using the word waste, because you'll almost never find them sell their branches) 159 gold every game. More actually, if you factor tps in cases they clearly could not have gotten away.

Go watch your replays, go read the little Q&A you posted in my thread, your only experience on the matter obviously and you'll see Hood is imbalanced.

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 03:54 PM

dreamex

09-11-2009, 04:46 PM

It's +40 block for HotBL not 20, 40 makes a difference. Also since you see that until imd game there is not much difference between them regarding Pyro's nukes, which are quite a bit. And THERE is much difference in them regarding physical attacks. You are saying yourself actually that until mid game at least, you better have HotBL than Shaman's Headress

It's 20 more than a shield for 250g gives you.

And I'm saying against 3 pyro's chain nukes it's equivalent to Headdress, but against more spell damage or as your levels go up from here it becomes increasingly less useful.

I am saying that by the end of early game (basically level 10-11) the HotBL is equivalent to Headdress against the highest burst damage caster in the game and from here on out the Headdress provides better mitigation. If you're going to save up at level 10-11 are you going to want to buy the item that's steadily getting worse or steadily getting better?

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 04:49 PM

It gives you about the same remaining hitpoints, but it's definitely not the same thing. More nukes are likely to be there, and that's where it already is losing effectiveness.

Zeus does more damage btw.

charlieeeh

09-11-2009, 06:00 PM

Well you are wrong here, totally, if you are referring to my post.
I'm not referring to your post.

Go watch your replays, go read the little Q&A you posted in my thread, your only experience on the matter obviously and you'll see Hood is imbalanced.My axe experience is a combination of my own past competitive participation combined with current competitive replays. Simply put, axe was a horrible hero in 6.3x, when I played high-level games. But I've also scrimmed in several hundred mid-skilled matches where both hood and vanguard each show their merits. Believe it or not, Vanguard is a perfectly viable choice of item for even outside of pub play, and it's been proven in that regard.

Just some quick math with a mid/late game 1632 HP Axe (level 16 with 5 levels of stats and a bracer, which is ~40 mins if doing average/well)

With vanguard, EHP vs magic:
1932*1.33=2570

With hood, EHP vs magic:
1632*1.57=2562

You're free to break it up at this point into your hood/heart or whatever.

Glorify1

09-11-2009, 06:03 PM

Base magic resistance is 25%, not 33%.

No one buys bracers on Axe.

Get out of EM games and someone will give a **** about what you say.

kingcomrade

09-11-2009, 06:57 PM

I remember getting flamed for writing a guide for Lego that didn't include Vanguard. Now 5 stars. Haha.

chiakoni

09-11-2009, 10:29 PM

Good guide. He's right, you're just wrong if you think a slight early game sidegrade that turns into trash by midgame is worth delaying anything actually important. The slight gold cost of disassembling & making hod out of a lifetube isn't important, what matters is that the only time doing that would be beneficial is if you were buying the beastheart very early on & there is no real scenario where that would be good.

So angel..........

Can't believe you didn't include Assasin's Shroud as an alternative to Portal Key as I find it far superior. I mean not even including Steamboots for their massive DPS boost I found pretty ridiculous.

I prefer my own Legionairre build much more than this one.

LegoPirate

09-11-2009, 11:16 PM

i lost all respect when u suggested assassin's shroud.

dps axe is something id expect to see in TDA/DXD games.

theqat

09-11-2009, 11:16 PM

Hey Angel/Glorify, any changes to this for the new patch? :)

Hornsby1

09-12-2009, 12:40 AM

It's an excellent guide with uch effort put on it. Good Job. However there are flaws in it.

- I don't know if this skill build is referring to competitive gaming, casual gaming, or both.
If competitive gaming is included too, i have to point a mistake in this skill build.

When laning (and not jungling) Skilling having on 5th level 3 levels of Whirling Blade and 2 levels of Taunt, is wrong. Why?

The reason is simple, yet may not be understandable by everyone. 25 damage more with the is far more insignificant than 0.5 seconds of disable. Don't think childish and see the 0.X number as too small (when the solid 25 numbers doesnt look like that). 0.5 seconds more are of great importance is such levels.
-Lets take a hero with low attack speed like Pebbles. 0.64 attacks per second.
And a hero with high attack speed like Magebane 0.84 attacks per second.

When taunting both heroes (lets say they are ready to attack by the time you taunted them you got:
Pebbles:
level 2 Taunt: 0.64 x 2 seconds = 1.28 attacks.
Level 3 Taunt: 0.64 x 2.5 seconds = 1.6 attacks.
Magebane:
Level 2 Taunt: 0.84 x 2 seconds = 1.68 attacks
Level 3 Taunt: 0.84 x 2.5 seconds = 2.1 attacks.

Results? Heroes like Pebbles would still do 1 attack, when Heroes like Magebane will attack twice. Making possible for Whirlwind Blade to occur twice.
Meaning 150 x 2 times > 175 x 1 time. That's the 1st issue.

Lets say you Taunt the enemy along with some enemy creeps that have taken damage.
With Taunt lvl 2 and Whirlwind lvl 3 you:
Hold the enemies for shorter time, while dealing more dmg with your Whirlwind. Meaning that if any creeps have about 150-175 life that time, they will die with the 1st triggered Whirlwind, decreasing your chances to get a 2nd.
With Taunt lvl 3 and Whirlwind lvl 2 you:
Hold the enemies for longer time, while dealing less dmg with your Whilrwind. Meaning that the previous creeps (150-175 life) you survive the 1st Whirlwind and still attack you to trigger a 2nd.
Result: Higher chances to Trigger Whirlwind with the 2nd build, and and more lvl 2 whirlwinds deal more dmg than less lvl 3.

3rd Issue.
In such early levels armor values have strong effect in game. 15 armor for 2.5 seconds can be compared with 10 armor for 2 seconds? I want to believe that this point is quite clear and i wont explain it further.

4th issue.
Holding the enemy for as long as possible (when you are laning) is of major importance. Your mate's spell may not be ready, even 0.5 seconds give him a higher chance to recast a spell which will be FAR more important than 25 extra damage of lvl 3 Whirlwind (which is the Damage of a Warlock/Archer's hit if im not mistaken). Might as well trigger another hit of your Tower (they got quite low attack cooldown) in these 0.5 seconds or help your mate get slighty out of enemy spell's range (which "Slighty" makes him live or die)

That's what i wanted to mention. I've been playing competitive Dota for long time and leveling 3 whilwind at lvl 5 is considered serious mistake. However is this guide isn't referred only for pub use, just ignore the above (too much details for casual players).

The 2nd thing i find as a mistake is the Vanguard must-not-have opinion of yours.

As you accuratively categorize items as core and luxury, the Shaman's Headdress doesn't belong to the core. Helm of the Black Legion does.
Why?
Your are an initiator, we all agree on that. Your role is to blink in, Taunt as many enemies as possible to give your allies the chance to cast their spells freely and accurately. Until that point you just need a Portal Key and enough mana to cast a Taunt to fullfil that role. Now it's survival issue coming forth. When taunting, you get HIT, by physical normal hits, NOT spells. Shaman Headress' magic armor doesn't help you with that, not at all. Helm of the Black Legion does.A bit before tauninting end, some enemy will be at critical HP (with the help of your allies ofc) you cast your Decapitate, and kaboom one down.Your ROLE IS DONE. Your team battle's winner should already be judged by that point. After taunting is over, your damaged enemy will try to cast their spells as fast as possible. Oke here Shaman Headress helps you i'm not denying it. But HotBL's +300 HP does too!
Pyromancer's so called highest nuke in game at that point (we are talking about mid game when Legionaire would have this items) does 675 Damage -25% from your Magic armor, 506 Damage, with your 300 extra hp, you actually have taken 206 Damage from the best nuke in game.
Why then HotBL is so bad, not worthing buying it?
To make things more clear, when the game has more physical attackers than nukers, why Shaman Headress is worth buying it? HotBL is worthy on all cases.
I've got to counter your point about delaying too. No i don't have to, it's already countered by a fact that you didn't considered.
Core items, Luxury items, you said these yourself. When the game goes from Core to Luxury, something isn't right. It lasts longer than expected. A team with a Legionaire with his Core items should be able to take a permanent advantage and win this game. But my point is: HotBL delays what? the luxury items? Is that a correct way of thinking? no, luxury items are Luxury. you don't sacrifice your core build to speed up a luxury build.

That's all. I apologise for my writing attitude that may see aggresive but i get passionate (and sometimes i read my posts as a monologue to a hypothetical crowd). You have a great guide, consider these facts and you will make it greater.

Agreed. You can be an average-good Axe if you don't follow these. You'll be an excellent Axe if you do.

charlieeeh

09-12-2009, 02:08 AM

Base magic resistance is 25%, not 33%.You are a tool. At least think twice before making yourself sound like an ass.

25% damage reduction means 75% damage taken. 75% damage taken means 100/75=133% increase in EHP.

No one buys bracers on Axe.That's beside the point, bracers only HELP your case. Take it off, and the difference is larger. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you're tot much of an ignorant ****tard to see that.

Get out of EM games and someone will give a **** about what you say.Feel free to yourself: "but.. but... his higher exp/min is cuz hes playing em!! he only played 10 games so he can't be better than me!". Tell yourself a lie long enough and you'll start to believe it. Whether or not you can accept that I was a better player than you are now, the fact remains just that, I am. Accept it you little twat.

dps axe is something id expect to see in TDA/DXD games.DPS axe in tda/dxd means that person is clearly the best player in the game. He doesn't need to take it seriously to be successful. I'm sure he means lothars jokingly anyway, I hope. What's your dota handle?

EDIT: I don't really know who you are to be badmouthing tda/dxd like that. They both have had (past tense) their merits. DXD started off as one of the finest leagues in NA, with dxdi/dxdin being the upper echelons of skilled play. It has since deteriorated because of ignorant trash players who thought they were better than they actually are. Thus, current dxd has the reputation of pretty much the most badmannered trash league, and a joke amongst past, true dxd players. Ironically, most "top" americans clans are like this. There are probably only 3-4 good high-skilled american clans, and 300 that think they're good. Why do you think american dota is a joke to the rest of the world?

TDA was the first "league" in dota, now it's just a "private" community. It's where everyone started off.

EDIT2: @Glorify: From what I can tell, you have some pretty "in" connections here. So why don't you use those connections to sort things out. I'm pretty sure there's some more in-depth hon-stat tracking going on, that lets you tell what games I've been playing, their respective scores, what hero, etc etc. There's only like 9 games or whatever to sort out anyway right? The results might be *gasp* surprising, confirming everything I've said about my hon experience to be true, and your assumptions to be false; the first few games with ridiculous apm/kdr/cs/whatever, with the next few taking a complete 180. You might also find an absence of presumed "em games". I mean, as much as I enjoy watching you act like a 9 year-old schoolgirl, covering her ears and yelling "cooties cooties!" without any real substance/understanding, quite frankly it's demeaning to my species. Thanks and have a day.

EDIT3: If it makes you feel any better, I made a mistake with the calculations, but not in the way you described. Perhaps if you actually put some thought in your responses instead of automatically dismissing them on the account of ad hominem, you might come off a little more mature. And a little more right.

1512 base hp (no bracer)

1812/.75=2416
1512/(.75*.7)=2880

Glorify1

09-12-2009, 04:42 AM

Feel free to yourself: "but.. but... his higher exp/min is cuz hes playing em!! he only played 10 games so he can't be better than me!". Tell yourself a lie long enough and you'll start to believe it. Whether or not you can accept that I was a better player than you are now, the fact remains just that, I am. Accept it you little twat.

25 minute average games with 500+ exp/min is a joke.

You are a tool. At least think twice before making yourself sound like an ass.

25% damage reduction means 75% damage taken. 75% damage taken means 100/75=133% increase in EHP.

Cute edit.

Is there any reason you continue to post in my threads after I've asked you not to? No one cares about anything you say, you're as much as a joke as Blarfles.

PoopyDesires

09-12-2009, 04:43 AM

No one cares about anything you say, you're as much as a joke as Blarfles.

Grow up.

You honestly start being a complete dick to the few people who don't blow you the second they see your PSR because they state facts against your "item is bad" arguments.

I'm not going to argue as they say the ignorant man cannot be won against due to his not understanding of anything you say, but regardless of how painfully arrogant you are, hopefully you understand this.

Grow up.

Xastin

09-12-2009, 04:48 AM

hi, i hate u both! that is all

Vamprski

09-12-2009, 04:53 AM

Is there any reason you continue to post in my threads after I've asked you not to? No one cares about anything you say, you're as much as a joke as Blarfles.

It seems throughout your threads that whenever you encounter resistance, instead of backing up your points with meaningful information, you just tend to rage and flame and passive aggressive and whatnot.

This thread is supposed to be about Lego's Guide, not a set-in-stone way to play where any pagans deserve to burn in a fire. Do not instantly disagree with people who do not share your opinion, look at their point of view. For example, I personally don't see what's wrong with getting a BHotL, as it tanks you up early and gives a decent health regen.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, I really am. But Glorify, please focus more on your guide and less on your opposition. You have a good layout, and your tips are quite valuable. I'd hate your threads' reputations to be a site for flame wars.

Glorify1

09-12-2009, 04:58 AM

I've stated reasoning for everything, and yet you kids continue to post useless information after I've asked you to stop.

Lothars is bad on SF, I can see how pubstars would disagree, regardless they're wrong.

Vanguard is bad on Axe, again, pubstars enjoy the item because it's easy to build and helps them survive. Regardless, other items are superior. Don't like it? Make your own ****ing guide and stop spamming mine with useless garbage.

Grow up.

You honestly start being a complete dick to the few people who don't blow you the second they see your PSR because they state facts against your "item is bad" arguments.

I'm not going to argue as they say the ignorant man cannot be won against due to his not understanding of anything you say, but regardless of how painfully arrogant you are, hopefully you understand this.

Grow up. Felt the need to hop onto this thread and preach to me that vanguard is awesome? Or are you going to continue your 70+ posts from my other thread and try to once again convince me that lothars is an awesome item!

i lost all respect when u suggested assassin's shroud.

dps axe is something id expect to see in TDA/DXD games.

He said this in jest, as we were joking back and forth about lothars/blink from the SF discussion. I went blink DP, he never got to finish lothars on arachna. x)

Vamprski

09-12-2009, 01:33 PM

It seems throughout your threads that whenever you encounter resistance, instead of backing up your points with meaningful information, you just tend to rage and flame and passive aggressive and whatnot.

This thread is supposed to be about Lego's Guide, not a set-in-stone way to play where any pagans deserve to burn in a fire. Do not instantly disagree with people who do not share your opinion, look at their point of view. For example, I personally don't see what's wrong with getting a BHotL, as it tanks you up early and gives a decent health regen.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible, I really am. But Glorify, please focus more on your guide and less on your opposition. You have a good layout, and your tips are quite valuable. I'd hate your threads' reputations to be a site for flame wars.

I've stated reasoning for everything, and yet you kids continue to post useless information after I've asked you to stop.

Lothars is bad on SF, I can see how pubstars would disagree, regardless they're wrong.

Vanguard is bad on Axe, again, pubstars enjoy the item because it's easy to build and helps them survive. Regardless, other items are superior. Don't like it? Make your own ****ing guide and stop spamming mine with useless garbage.

Felt the need to hop onto this thread and preach to me that vanguard is awesome? Or are you going to continue your 70+ posts from my other thread and try to once again convince me that lothars is an awesome item!

He said this in jest, as we were joking back and forth about lothars/blink from the SF discussion. I went blink DP, he never got to finish lothars on arachna. x)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You made no effort whatsoever to explain why BHotL or Shroud sucks, but instead devote all your energy to putting those who disagree with you down.

dreamex

09-12-2009, 02:42 PM

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You made no effort whatsoever to explain why BHotL or Shroud sucks, but instead devote all your energy to putting those who disagree with you down.

What, we explained why HotBL was bad many times, people can't read through the lines apparently.

1. If you rush HotBL you are delaying all of your core items that help you initiate, chase, and kill heroes. Axe is naturally tanky thanks to high str growth, good base stats, and Taunt giving bonus armor. He doesn't necessarily need HotBL to become more tanky.

2. If you get HotBL AFTER you have Blink you're buying an item that is declining in value, and should instead just go for your Headdress, an item that is increasing in value.

I even gave consideration to the only time HotBL can be acceptable, if you are getting dominated so hard early and need +HP, you may as well try to scrounge up the 1100 for a Beast Heart and then complete HotBL before your Blink since you've been delayed already and then disassemble it after to make your Headdress / Heart.

Glorify disagrees with this because he doesn't see Axe getting owned so hard early, and it really depends on how good your lane partner is and how good you are.

PoopyDesires

09-12-2009, 02:51 PM

Felt the need to hop onto this thread and preach to me that vanguard is awesome? Or are you going to continue your 70+ posts from my other thread and try to once again convince me that lothars is an awesome item!

Lol.

Vamprski

09-12-2009, 02:56 PM

What, we explained why HotBL was bad many times, people can't read through the lines apparently.

1. If you rush HotBL you are delaying all of your core items that help you initiate, chase, and kill heroes. Axe is naturally tanky thanks to high str growth, good base stats, and Taunt giving bonus armor. He doesn't necessarily need HotBL to become more tanky.

2. If you get HotBL AFTER you have Blink you're buying an item that is declining in value, and should instead just go for your Headdress, an item that is increasing in value.

I even gave consideration to the only time HotBL can be acceptable, if you are getting dominated so hard early and need +HP, you may as well try to scrounge up the 1100 for a Beast Heart and then complete HotBL before your Blink since you've been delayed already and then disassemble it after to make your Headdress / Heart.

Glorify disagrees with this because he doesn't see Axe getting owned so hard early, and it really depends on how good your lane partner is and how good you are.

Yes. You're right. You explained how it's bad.

But my point is not that it's a good item on Lego, but that Glorify can't explain to us why it's not. You effectively proved my point, dreamex.

"What, we explained why..."
"Glorify disagrees with ..."

In every single one of his threads I have seen, he has not given any information behind why he doesn't get certain items, but instead calls people "bad" and items "bad" without any back-up. The people who agree with his build do this for him.

PandaPanda

09-12-2009, 03:47 PM

Seems like this could be settled pretty easily once replays and whatnot are implemented. People play several games with their Axe builds, then try the opposite Axe build, see what item ends up superior.

Of course the problem there is that the loser will just blame the quality of the winner's opponents.

Or just see what kind of build has the most success when Comp HoN really takes off. (Though by then the game may have changed enough to change people's opinions about certain items).

Mathcraft doesn't always hold up to actual play, though it's certainly usually on the right track.

Vamprski

09-12-2009, 03:49 PM

Seems like this could be settled pretty easily once replays and whatnot are implemented. People play several games with their Axe builds, then try the opposite Axe build, see what item ends up superior.

Of course the problem there is that the loser will just blame the quality of the winner's opponents.

Mm. 'Tis inevitable.

I really can't wait for replays to come out, it'll make video-making umpteen times easier.

charlieeeh

09-12-2009, 03:55 PM

25 minute average games with 500+ exp/min is a joke.It's more impressive than 60 min games with 500+ exp/min, isn't it? I mean, experience does come by easier as the game goes on. Stop spewing out bullshit that doesn't even help your point. Get better.

Cute edit.I don't see it. 25% reduction is 33% increase. Go edit your post.

Is there any reason you continue to post in my threads after I've asked you not to? No one cares about anything you say, you're as much as a joke as Blarfles.There's a very good reason: you're wrong. You're a joke. Attacking me instead of my arguments won't change that.

1. If you rush HotBL you are delaying all of your core items that help you initiate, chase, and kill heroes. Axe is naturally tanky thanks to high str growth, good base stats, and Taunt giving bonus armor. He doesn't necessarily need HotBL to become more tanky.Axe has very poor str growth for a STR hero. And if you're landing 20-25 minute blink calls like you should, you'll won't always make it out alive. You may very well want a vitality booster. Dagger is core, hood is not, vanguard is not, pipe... will probably get nerfed. =\

Glorify is pretty adamant about NO BRACER NO WAND TOO PRO, so you probably won't have much health following his word completely, as you're doing.

2. If you get HotBL AFTER you have Blink you're buying an item that is declining in value, and should instead just go for your Headdress, an item that is increasing in value.Nukes aren't getting any stronger. It increases EHP by a multiplier, instead of a static number though, if that's what you mean.

I even gave consideration to the only time HotBL can be acceptable, if you are getting dominated so hard early and need +HP, you may as well try to scrounge up the 1100 for a Beast Heart and then complete HotBL before your Blink since you've been delayed already and then disassemble it after to make your Headdress / Heart.Actually, you should be getting vanguard if you're dominating, not if you're dominated.

I think you're missing the gist of my post. I'm not saying vanguard is the better alternative, I'm saying vanguard is AN alternative. In fact, I go hood more times than vanguard (it can't be disassembled in dota) when I play him. No one can argue the sheer usefulness of pipe, and that alone is the reason for most people going hood nowadays. Unless pipe got implemented last update, there's no reason for you to go hood each and every game as suggested.

Glorify disagrees with this because he doesn't see Axe getting owned so hard early, and it really depends on how good your lane partner is and how good you are.He also claims he's never lost a game with axe. As if we can't already see the absolute bullshit in that claim. It's true if he's either playing horrible opponents, or he's only played a few games with axe. Either way, his experience with the hero is faulty if either case is true.

Also, friend tells me Sup holding open scrims. Use axe and win please, then post replay and I'll quit dota/hon/life.

Lim_Dul

09-12-2009, 04:04 PM

I find the guide to be a great read - good job!
However, please, please don't use exclusively DotA names for some items. It's so confusing and I believe most players who need guides for ported heroes didn't play DotA in the first place - at least use dual names...

PandaPanda

09-12-2009, 04:17 PM

Also, friend tells me Sup holding open scrims.

What does this sentence mean? Sorry, I never played comp DotA, so if that is from that particular community then I need clarification.

Question for Angel/Glorify (or anybody else I guess) - With the new patch yesterday, what are your thoughts on other starting items/midgame items (Pipe/Quelling Blade aka BarrierIdol/Hatchet)?

charlieeeh

09-12-2009, 04:25 PM

Sup is a korean "high-skill" team in dota, but probably one of the worst in realm of "high-skilled" teams.

Nedrapter

09-12-2009, 04:31 PM

I see that i just wasted my time, trying to help you improve your guide. You are stuck with false facts in your mind, believing that you have seen high level gaming, and if you really did, what you write is what you saw. One of the 2 has to be false, or else you wouldn't be writing these as replies.

For the people that read this guide, I challenge them if they want to try this out, test with both my opinion on the matter and Glorify's. They will see what's the result, regardless of competitive or pub gaming.

ElementUser

09-12-2009, 04:54 PM

Axe has very poor str growth for a STR hero.

Of all the things you said, that much is true and Glorify can't deny this. A strength gain of 2.5 is pretty below average for strength heroes.

Just out of curiosity, are you the same charlieeeh that I see on the DotA Allstars forums?

PandaPanda

09-12-2009, 05:04 PM

For the people that read this guide, I challenge them if they want to try this out, test with both my opinion on the matter and Glorify's. They will see what's the result, regardless of competitive or pub gaming.

I think I will take you up on that offer. I play HoN primarily to get away from other games I play more competitively so I am the epitome of a pubber when it comes to Heroes of Newerth. Both parties offer such vehement arguments (I think you need to realize that just as you believe Glorify is ignoring your facts, the same view can be seen the other way around). Anyway, I'll play more Legionnaire as I have the chance to in the next few days and see how it goes.

Also just as a side note, your use of color makes your text harder to read. Emphasis can be given just as easily with just bolding/italicizing text.

YourPanties

09-13-2009, 03:43 AM

i want ur babies :O teach me more

Glorify1

09-13-2009, 08:10 AM

Of all the things you said, that much is true and Glorify can't deny this. A strength gain of 2.5 is pretty below average for strength heroes.

Just out of curiosity, are you the same charlieeeh that I see on the DotA Allstars forums?

This has no bearing on really anything I've said at all. His hitpoints is higher than average, especially since you're pumping stats.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You made no effort whatsoever to explain why BHotL or Shroud sucks, but instead devote all your energy to putting those who disagree with you down.
Vanguard
http://honwiki.net/w/images/f/f4/Helm_of_the_Black_Legionitem.gif
I'd like to take this time out to address an item that you should never buy on any hero, this one included. We all know why people get this, it's damage mitigation, and it has just about everything Legionnaire needs early game. However, there is a gigantic flaw with getting this item, you get everything that it has and more buy building other core items. Now, sure, this item does reduce quite a bit of damage early on from both hero and creep attacks, but so does a normal stout shield! You're paying 2k gold for regen you DON'T need, and a moderate increase in life that you also do not need in the form of vanguard anyways. You can use the booster to make your heart later on, and lifetube is simply not needed. It's much cheaper to buy two rings, and you're only missing out on 1 point of regen. The 7 regen from helm+rings is enough to sustain you during the lane or jungle phases, and once you finish hood and phase you have sufficient creep reduction with the amount of armor and regen you have with basically 250 gold stout shield. This item delays all of the items you need to get as soon as possible, and I'll go ahead and quickly list them: Phase boots, Blink, Hood. These are THE core items, you need phase for armor and chase/escape, Blink for initiating, and hood as your staple regen and spell mitigation. You already have stout and armor, and that's enough to reduce most incoming creep damage, and you'll never be able to mitigate all damage from enemy heroes. Finally, this item scales poorly late game since it reduces damage before armor reduction. A quick example: Assume you have a vanguard, and you're taking 200 damage. Vanguard procs, causing the damage you would of taken to be reduced to 160. Lets also assume, since this is generally the case, you're now lacking armor because instead of opting for phase boots you bought vanguard. So your reduction is only 20%, causing the damage you've taken to be reduced by 32.
160 - 32 = 128

Now, you have armor and a stout shield, rather than the upgraded vanguard. You take the same 200 damage, and stout shield procs, reducing the incoming damage to 180. This is now reduced by your armor, let's assume 45% reduction.
180 - 81 = 99 damage taken.

Anyways, the two main points you should take away from section of the guide is:
-Vanguard delays your important, core items too long for little to no benefit
-Vanguard's early buffs do not warrant building it when you can already buy what it provides via core items you'll need later

You're right, I made no effort to explain why the matter at hand is bad, I only flame those who disagree with me.

ColdBreeze

09-13-2009, 10:13 AM

You've simply made some haters. Haters gonna hate.

Glorify1

09-13-2009, 12:16 PM

You've simply made some haters. Haters gonna hate.

Yeah, hate and spam. :/

charlieeeh

09-13-2009, 03:47 PM

ou're paying 2k gold for regen you DON'T need, and a moderate increase in life that you also do not need in the form of vanguard anyways. You can use the booster to make your heart later on, and lifetube is simply not needed.
No, you're paying 2k gold for the life you DO need, and the regen you don't need but would've paid for anyway in the form of headress.

A quick example: Assume you have a vanguard, and you're taking 200 damage. Vanguard procs, causing the damage you would of taken to be reduced to 160. Lets also assume, since this is generally the case, you're now lacking armor because instead of opting for phase boots you bought vanguard. So your reduction is only 20%, causing the damage you've taken to be reduced by 32.
160 - 32 = 128

Now, you have armor and a stout shield, rather than the upgraded vanguard. You take the same 200 damage, and stout shield procs, reducing the incoming damage to 180. This is now reduced by your armor, let's assume 45% reduction.
180 - 81 = 99 damage taken.
There's biased examples, and there's simply non-existant examples. Something is definitely wrong if your example of vanguard vs physical attacks comes out inferior. Please explain how Axe will have 20% base reduction EVER (lvl call alone puts him at 6+ armor), let alone simultaneously with a hero dishing 200 damage? Furthermore, what items did Axe receive when he lost the vanguard? It surely isn't just phase, since that only puts him at ~35% reduction. Subsequently, very few heroes will ever hit 200 damage, no matter how long the game.

Mid/late-game, non-carry heroes average ~120 damage per hit.

phase/vanguard with call puts him at ~66% damage reduction.

(120-28)*.34=31.28

phase/platemail/stout with call puts him at ~72% damage reduction.

(120-12)*.28=30.24

That's less than a 1 damage difference between vanguard BLOCK vs stout AND platemail, and factoring the 300 extra HP you get, I don't think this is a worthy comparison at all.

Or are you assuming heroes will attack Axe even when not called?

Speaking of taunt vs spin early game, I'm not sure how hon mechanics work for call, but in dota, every player DXD level and up will animation cancel to avoid making axe spin like a deucer. Early levels, call over helix because of that, since it's really just an x second aoe disable, with no real damage perks unless you happen to nag a few creeps as well. The extra .5 or 1 second could result in your teammates getting there, landing that stun, or your teammates getting that extra hit, etc etc.

Boduar

09-13-2009, 04:02 PM

I get vanguard mainly because of habit but another thing you need to remember is a lot of hero fights take place in lane so you get hit by sometimes large amounts of enemy creeps which do pretty much no dmg with vanguard but still peck away at your life with just buckler. Also makes jungling a breeze. Ill admit I have no clue what is truly better but if you have the money I dont see a reason not to get it since without it you do lose a chunk of survivability.

LibrtiORDeth

09-13-2009, 04:25 PM

Good info on Legionnaire here.

So a noob question... can we stick with HoN references? -> (tangoes, flasks, hood, phase boots, vanguard and axe = runes, potions, Shaman's Headdress, Enhanced Marchers, Helm of the Black Legion (HotBL), and Legionnaire)

I think it would make your guide more authentic. I'm finding that as I get better in HoN I need to forget how some things worked in DotA and there are many players who never played DotA.

just my 2 cents...
I concur. Having never played DotA, I still know a lot of the names from playing HoN, but am much more familiar with the HoN names :). Nonetheless, great guide, I'm going to try out skipping HotBL.

Vamprski

09-13-2009, 04:28 PM

You're right, I made no effort to explain why the matter at hand is bad, I only flame those who disagree with me.

Enough with the sarcasm.

I thought you were supposed to be a leader?

KARTlK

09-13-2009, 04:33 PM

Protip: Maybe TWO people in this entire thread can play axe better than Glorify.

LegoPirate

09-13-2009, 04:42 PM

No, you're paying 2k gold for the life you DO need, and the regen you don't need but would've paid for anyway in the form of headress.

There's biased examples, and there's simply non-existant examples. Something is definitely wrong if your example of vanguard vs physical attacks comes out inferior. Please explain how Axe will have 20% base reduction EVER (lvl call alone puts him at 6+ armor), let alone simultaneously with a hero dishing 200 damage? Furthermore, what items did Axe receive when he lost the vanguard? It surely isn't just phase, since that only puts him at ~35% reduction. Subsequently, very few heroes will ever hit 200 damage, no matter how long the game.

Mid/late-game, non-carry heroes average ~120 damage per hit.

phase/vanguard with call puts him at ~66% damage reduction.

(120-28)*.34=31.28

phase/platemail/stout with call puts him at ~72% damage reduction.

(120-12)*.28=30.24

That's less than a 1 damage difference between vanguard BLOCK vs stout AND platemail, and factoring the 300 extra HP you get, I don't think this is a worthy comparison at all.

Or are you assuming heroes will attack Axe even when not called?

Speaking of taunt vs spin early game, I'm not sure how hon mechanics work for call, but in dota, every player DXD level and up will animation cancel to avoid making axe spin like a deucer. Early levels, call over helix because of that, since it's really just an x second aoe disable, with no real damage perks unless you happen to nag a few creeps as well. The extra .5 or 1 second could result in your teammates getting there, landing that stun, or your teammates getting that extra hit, etc etc.

you cant animation cancel against taunt in hon.

Glorify1

09-13-2009, 05:34 PM

Enough with the sarcasm.

I thought you were supposed to be a leader?

Did I, or did I not back up my views with evidence?

Protip: Maybe TWO people in this entire thread can play axe better than Glorify. Always love support. <3

In the future all posts by Charlieeeh will be ignored, I urge anyone else to do the same. Can't continue posting if no one is responding. :)

I concur. Having never played DotA, I still know a lot of the names from playing HoN, but am much more familiar with the HoN names :). Nonetheless, great guide, I'm going to try out skipping HotBL. I apologize, I've played enough DotA that it's like a second language. Also, Vanguard is MUCH easier to say that Helm of the black legion, or even Hotbl. I will in any future guides I make create a key to allow players who do not know the DotA terms to learn them, therefor making my process of writing and your process of reading easier.

Pro tip for DotA players. Axe's spin starts at the beginning of the attack animation, not after the attack has been completed. Therefor spamming h, s, or move clicking will do nothing other than give your opponent more spins. Not responding to anyone in particular, just a tip that when playing an axe, do none of the previously said tactics.

crayze

09-13-2009, 05:50 PM

^ yeah, you can't "animation cancel" Taunt.. anything you do to prevent attacking Axe is just going to create more spins. Taunt works in DotA by issuing an attack command many times in rapid succession. By clicking off, you essentially re-issue an attack command, which then goes through the 17% spin check.

Valk

09-13-2009, 07:22 PM

Did I, or did I not back up my views with evidence?

Always love support. <3

In the future all posts by Charlieeeh will be ignored, I urge anyone else to do the same. Can't continue posting if no one is responding. :)

I apologize, I've played enough DotA that it's like a second language. Also, Vanguard is MUCH easier to say that Helm of the black legion, or even Hotbl. I will in any future guides I make create a key to allow players who do not know the DotA terms to learn them, therefor making my process of writing and your process of reading easier.

Pro tip for DotA players. Axe's spin starts at the beginning of the attack animation, not after the attack has been completed. Therefor spamming h, s, or move clicking will do nothing other than give your opponent more spins. Not responding to anyone in particular, just a tip that when playing an axe, do none of the previously said tactics.
Perhaps you could just do a search and replace on the dota items once you're finished with the guide? Would probably save yourself and readers some trouble, although it's not too big a deal, should be easy enough for people to decipher what you mean anyway.

ElementUser

09-13-2009, 07:27 PM

Protip: Maybe TWO people in this entire thread can play axe better than Glorify.

Who? lol

Time to test out when Legionnaire's Spin activates (beginning or end)

charlieeeh

09-13-2009, 07:27 PM

Pro tip for DotA players. Axe's spin starts at the beginning of the attack animation, not after the attack has been completed. Therefor spamming h, s, or move clicking will do nothing other than give your opponent more spins. Not responding to anyone in particular, just a tip that when playing an axe, do none of the previously said tactics.I'm assuming you're referring to hon mechanics. Then yeah, you shouldn't.

EDIT: Ok fail, big coding mixup. fml

Still do it if you're invis though.

09-13-2009, 07:35 PM

ElementUser

09-13-2009, 07:36 PM

2) After the core, why don't you include Shrunken head as a luxury item? I find that it's saved my ass a ton of times from stuns/nukes/whatever. Why do you recommend Mock of Brilliance and Frostfield over Shrunken head?

Legionnaire is a tank, and he's supposed to tank the targetted spells for his allies. If he has magic immunity, the enemy will probably decide to use his targetted spell on another one of your allies. Of course, people in higher level play will naturally do this more.

Oh yeah, confirmed that Legionnaire's Whirling Blade activates when the enemy projectile hits him, not at the start of an enemy's attack. :(

Glorify1

09-13-2009, 09:12 PM

I played Legionnaire for the first time and followed this guide and did fairly well. I think it's excellent. Thanks!

However, a few things:

1) Now that there are new items, when do you think you'll have the time to update your item builds? There's a lot of talk about mana battery and if you are laning, is it better to take that over a mana/health potion? I think that it might be since you can upgrade to Power Supply and keep it on you instead of investing in consumables early on. Mid-late game the 225 hp boost can be useful.

2) After the core, why don't you include Shrunken head as a luxury item? I find that it's saved my ass a ton of times from stuns/nukes/whatever. Why do you recommend Mock of Brilliance and Frostfield over Shrunken head?

I'll get on the builds a little later. For now, you build a magic stick(power supply I believe), and finish a pipe of kadgar(upgrades off hood). That's really the only changes that will effect this hero in the grand scale. In terms of BKB, it can be useful in certain situations like an opposing magmus and you feel yourself getting blown up by lots of aoe(but pipe should solve this rather than bkb now). Since axe is so one and done, doing nothing for the next ~10 seconds, you don't really need a bkb.

Also, frostfield is massive amounts of EHP and damage, and mock of brilliance is meh. If you have the gold waste it on it.

Kzanu

09-14-2009, 03:44 AM

To add a pertinent opinion, I tried in a rather balanced match this build - (shield+ runes, helm, marchers,2 trinkets, portal key, phase boots finish and hood finish+ mana batery) and, to my surprise, I really finished the build very very fast- beginning of mid game with 4 kills and jungling on the side - ElementUser's guide really is usefull. (non em game)

Don't know really if this is true, but I think Glorify refers to the fact that when you play in a balanced non-em game with ppl that choose the heroes to make a balanced team, almost always you end up with at least 2 nuker type heroes as enemies, thus making the shaman headdress a must have when you are the one initiating.

After that I triple stacked a couple of times both ancient camps :D and got behemoth heart and then just stacked 2 platemails.

One question thou... I noticed that, with Legionnaire, instead of getting Frostfield -Shiva, it's more usefull to get 2 platemails @ a total of +20 armor and only 2.8 k gold. Is this viable in a high level game , or only works in easy pub games?

charlieeeh

09-14-2009, 04:28 AM

Oh yeah, confirmed that Legionnaire's Whirling Blade activates when the enemy projectile hits him, not at the start of an enemy's attack. :(
Are you sure? According to Robzor, Glorify should be right. Robzor's usually right anyway :p

That's not quite right, every time an attack is started against Axe there is a chance that Counter Helix will trigger, it does not trigger when you actually take damage but before that. This being the case it will not trigger from spells.
And this:

Counter Helix (A0C6)
Based on Brilliance Aura, giving 0.01 mana per second.

Whenever a unit is attacked, if the attacked unit has the Counter Helix buff, and the attacker is not an structure and not mechanical and not a dummy, the attacker is an enemy, "HelixCD" is not active and a random real between 0 and 100 is lower than 17 do the trigger.

The Counter Helix trigger counts all enemy non dummy non structure alive non cycloned units in a 300 AoE from Axe's location, then for each one of those units do the following: Show the special effect on the unit, and make Axe damage the unit with CounterHelixlvl*25+75 with Attack Type Hero, Damage Type Normal. Set Axe's animation to "spin", call (1) and then activate "HelixCD" for 0.6 seconds.

(1): Saves the triggering unit to the cache as "Unit", then creates a new timed event that runs 0.6 seconds later.

The new timed trigger recovers "Unit" from the cache and make its animation be "stand", then disable this trigger.@Above: Shiva provides other benefits too that shouldn't be downplayed. The nuke is great when chasing, and 1k in a battle is nothing to shrug off; the -AS debuff helps your team. A boost in mana pool too, but that's not really a huge factor. Headdress is generally more useful when your opposing team has 3+ nukers, which is usually... always.

Hippie

09-14-2009, 04:39 AM

Looking for an opinion, Glorify.

Now that Poor Man's Shield has been put in (I'm really sorry, but for the life of me I can't remember the HoN name) would you recommend a purchase of it? I personally don't think I'd go for it, but I'd like your input.

Glorify1

09-14-2009, 06:32 AM

Are you sure? According to Robzor, Glorify should be right. Robzor's usually right anyway :pHe's talking about HoN mechanics, in which case you can't animation cancel in taunt anyways.

Looking for an opinion, Glorify.

Now that Poor Man's Shield has been put in (I'm really sorry, but for the life of me I can't remember the HoN name) would you recommend a purchase of it? I personally don't think I'd go for it, but I'd like your input.You don't need the agility, and the benefits are barely noticeable. It does only cost 300 extra, but it's really not needed at all. As previously stated, Pipe is pretty important against aoe heavy teams.

Ahenian

09-14-2009, 11:14 AM

Previously I followed the item build helmet of the black legion - phase boots/blink followed by heart. I decided to give this build ago swapping black legion for hood components and I found I could jungle just as well with +5 armor and +7 regen compared to the 40 block.

Instead of an extra iron shield and lifetube helmet of the victim plus the regen rings gives all the jungle survivability you'll need. Sneak in a power supply for good measure and the overall result is a much more durable and nasty legionnare. I'm actually out leveling the solo laners as long as you're on top of your game. Cheers for the guide.

charlieeeh

09-14-2009, 02:47 PM

PMS is an alternative to dual stouts. Gives as much block as 23487239289 stouts, with AGI to boot.

LibrtiORDeth

09-14-2009, 02:56 PM

After trying both builds, I do like the earlier regen/armor I can get from hood, which I still use and upgrade for the final hood and even to barrier idol.
I think I've decided what to do, after playing this build:
When playing against a lot of physical damage, go with HotBL. When playing against a lot of magic damage, go with hood. I'm still fuzzy on what is and isn't magical damage though... are all int characters auto attacks magical damage, and non-int characters physical damage? And does it have to say "magical damage" in the ability for it to be magical damage, otherwise it's not? I wish there was a better guide on the mechanics like this, or one that I could find :?.

Pro

09-14-2009, 03:17 PM

All Autoattacks are physical, doesnt matter if the attacker is ranged/melee/a caster whatever.

The Majority of SPELLS are magic damage.Unholy Expulsion (Defilers ghosts), Legionairs Decapitate are physical dmg even tho they are "spells", but these are exceptions.

And theres true dmg, which basicly just means its a fixed amount and cannot be lowered by items, resistences, armor... eg Jereziahs Inner Light

Glorify1

09-14-2009, 03:32 PM

Decapitate is magical damage. If it kills the target, it deals a million physical damage, but if it's not a kill shot it'll deal magical damage.

The problem with getting vanguard against physical damage is you'll reduce the about the same with armor and a stout, and later you'll reduce more.

Anyways, I'll be updating this guide later today and finishing it up, anyone interested in seeing another guide from me can vote which hero they'd like to see in the thread I've made.

arcadus

09-14-2009, 03:33 PM

how about some hon names instead of dota names

i dont understand half of the guide because of this

Pro

09-14-2009, 04:09 PM

Decapitate is magical damage. If it kills the target, it deals a million physical damage, but if it's not a kill shot it'll deal magical damage.

Did you test this? Because the Skill description in the heroes database (http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/heroview.php?hid=38)says something different:

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7520/decap.jpg

LegoPirate

09-14-2009, 04:13 PM

Decapitate is magical damage. If it kills the target, it deals a million physical damage, but if it's not a kill shot it'll deal magical damage.

im like 65% sure that it doesnt work that way in dota anymore. i remember they changed it becuase they were having problems with axe one-shotting himself along with his target if it had blademail. i might be wrong tho, but i remember seeing something in an old changelog about it >.>

also, its physical.

EDIT: also, this wouldnt explain why it goes through acursed ulti

i think they changed it instead of acutally damaging (if the target is under the required hp), it just does some sort of kill command on the target. again, not too sure.

dreamex

09-14-2009, 04:34 PM

im like 65% sure that it doesnt work that way in dota anymore. i remember they changed it becuase they were having problems with axe one-shotting himself along with his target if it had blademail. i might be wrong tho, but i remember seeing something in an old changelog about it >.>

also, its physical.

EDIT: also, this wouldnt explain why it goes through acursed ulti

i think they changed it instead of acutally damaging (if the target is under the required hp), it just does some sort of kill command on the target. again, not too sure.

I'm pretty sure Borrowed Time is scripted so that it cannot avoid Culling Blade, basically it cannot recover more than Abaddon's maximum Health in a single strike, and since Culling Blade does a bajillion damage then Abaddon does not avoid it.

For Blademail, I think it's scripted to avoid really high number attacks as well.

Edit: Blademail returns damage between 2-3000 only.

(This is all DotA discussion, I'm sure HoN doesn't need that workaround and can just issue a kill command to the recipient of Decapitate).

SyyRaaaN

09-14-2009, 04:43 PM

Loving the Vanguard debate in here. I actually used to be a Vanguard hater and placing it at the bottom of the list of useful items. However during the years the vanguard has recieved alot of buffs.

Ring of Health regen from 4 to 5.
Ring of Health in Side shops.
Ring of Health price reduction, down from 900 (hm maybe im wrong? was it 875 in 6.4x? dont remember)

Vanguard damage block from 65% to 70%
Vanguard damage block up from 35 to 40.

This means that the it blocks 28 damage, up from 22,75 = 23 % percent buff.

Vanguard regeneration up from 4 to 6.

Stout shield price cut with 50 gold.
Stout shield stacking is worse. Down from 40% for 30 damage. 19, 5 damage reduction on averege with 2 stouts with the old one. 17 with the new one.

Compare this to the old vanguard who blocked 22,5 on averege. Now perhaps people understand why we oldschoolers hate the item.

Enhanced Marchers introduction = Travels obsolete = Less item slots.
Magic Stick/Wand introduction = Less item slots.
Bracelets = Semi obsolete due to New threads.

Bottle nerf as of 6.51 (? or 52?).
No more 6.52e rice feast = More hardcore action earlier in the game.
No more 6.48 dagger = Less escape possibilites, well i know axe sucked back then =).

I hate to break the news. But the Vanguard is usable as a survivability tool as of 6.60. It is however quite expensive.

And trust me ^^ no body used to hate the vanguard more than I :D. It was a pretty bad item from 6.48 to 6.59, but it is viable now, we might just as well let go of the biases against it :P allthough i know its really hard.

I might aswell comment the guide! Flawless guide. The vanguard section has actually started a discussion for nothing, because he is right, vanguard is certainly NOT core on Legionnaire. Its useful, but not core.

OP:s take on the vanguard was standard before it got buffed. However now its different. I might add that it is used in league play, especially in the asian community.

charlieeeh

09-14-2009, 04:47 PM

RoH was always 875. Void was 900 though.

dreamex

09-14-2009, 04:49 PM

RoH was always 875. Void was 900 though.

Aye, RoH was always 875, RoR used to be 375, Void was 900, Mask was 350

SyyRaaaN

09-14-2009, 04:52 PM

Screwed up, double posted by accident when i edited.

Glorify1

09-14-2009, 04:54 PM

Notes

• Damage type: magic (regular), 100000000 physical (killing blow*)
• The killing blow* is dealt at the target if its HP is below 300/450/625 respectively, depending on the level of Culling Blade.
• The killing blow* goes through magic immunity.
• The killing blow* removes all buffs from the target unit before killing it.

dreamex

09-14-2009, 05:01 PM

Vadi

09-14-2009, 05:09 PM

In HoN, it actually kills the target, not does an insane amount of damage:

<onimpact >
<pushstack a="300,450,625" />
<condition test="target_health lt result">
<kill target="target_entity" />
<playeffect effect="effects/impact.effect" source="target_entity"/>
</condition>
<damage effecttype="Physical" amount="150,250,300" />
</onimpact>

How to read this

When the animation finishes, it tests if the target is below 300 health (if lvl1) and if level 2, under 450 and if level 3, 625 health. If it is below that, then it simply kills them.

Not one million health or whatever else silly tricks :)

Glorify1

09-14-2009, 05:09 PM

This is true, though Ghost Scepter allows you to avoid Culling Blade.

I may be wrong, it's probably doing physical in HoN.

ElementUser

09-14-2009, 08:13 PM

This is true, though Ghost Scepter allows you to avoid Culling Blade.

Culling Blade removes all debuffs & buffs before applying the damage. So no it won't allow you to evade Ghost Scepter

Are you sure? According to Robzor, Glorify should be right. Robzor's usually right anyway :p

This isn't DotA, so I'm specifically referring to Legionnaire and his skills in HoN, not Axe and his skills in DotA :/. But of course in DotA, Robzor/Glorify was correct.

dreamex

09-14-2009, 08:32 PM

Culling Blade removes all debuffs & buffs before applying the damage. So no it won't allow you to evade Ghost Scepter

This isn't DotA, so I'm specifically referring to Legionnaire and his skills in HoN, not Axe and his skills in DotA :/. But of course in DotA, Robzor/Glorify was correct.

Ghost Scepter isn't a buff or debuff.

LegoPirate

09-14-2009, 08:55 PM

Ghost Scepter isn't a buff or debuff.

yes it is... its casting pugnas decrepify on yourself, only 0% movespeed slow.

both of which are based of the the wc3 bloodmage skill banish

ElementUser

09-14-2009, 09:19 PM

yes it is... its casting pugnas decrepify on yourself, only 0% movespeed slow.

both of which are based of the the wc3 bloodmage skill banish

Therefore it works (thanks Lego)

dreamex

09-14-2009, 09:38 PM

Therefore it works (thanks Lego)

It's not based on Banish, it's based on Spiritwalker's Ethereal form. Which is a state effect not a buff effect. Hence Ghost Scepter is not removed by Culling Blade (Freaking test it if you don't believe me).

It and Puck's auto-phase are the only ways to evade Culling Blade damage (though in the case of GS you will still take the magic damage as if you were above the threshold since it gets dealt after the physical damage check, which is amplified by GS)

Go read some threads or heaven forbid, test it in a DotA game.

Damage

09-15-2009, 07:30 AM

Stats vs Terrify

I don't understand why all decent Legionaire players refuse to get Terrify before stats. Yes, I understand how easy it is to remove. However, if you're charging into the enemy team early-mid game (when you're around level 14) you taunt 2-3 enemy heroes and throw terrify on the main target. They're most likely going to counter-disable and attack or run. In which case your main target takes 625(around 450 after natural magic resistance) damage during the fight. By this point there aren't many heroes that will have more than 450 hp (level 2 decap)

So let's look at the two side by side:

Terrify: 25-625 Magic damage over 25 seconds. (Only works until enemy last hits a creep)
Stats: 152 hp (.26 regen), 8 damage, 8 attack speed, 1 armor, 104 mana (.32 regen)

I can see why terrify would be bad in competitive games due to easy removal. But used right after the initiation would cause most/all of the damage to apply.

ElementUser

09-15-2009, 08:26 AM

It's not based on Banish, it's based on Spiritwalker's Ethereal form. Which is a state effect not a buff effect. Hence Ghost Scepter is not removed by Culling Blade (Freaking test it if you don't believe me).

It and Puck's auto-phase are the only ways to evade Culling Blade damage (though in the case of GS you will still take the magic damage as if you were above the threshold since it gets dealt after the physical damage check, which is amplified by GS)

Go read some threads or heaven forbid, test it in a DotA game.

Oh ok then, but it's hard to test these things without another person :(.

Glorify1

09-15-2009, 08:29 AM

dreamex

09-15-2009, 09:02 AM

Oh ok then, but it's hard to test these things without another person :(.

Sorry, didn't mean to be snippy.

GuyGin

09-15-2009, 12:38 PM

Glorify,

Now that the items have been updated, would you recommend a mana battery / power supply for legio? Whenever I play him I find I have to be REALLY conservative with mana, and basically skip terrify and I was thinking this would be a relatively cheap solution.

Verix

09-15-2009, 12:56 PM

I can see why terrify would be bad in competitive games due to easy removal. But used right after the initiation would cause most/all of the damage to apply.

The issue isn't stats vs terrify, it's mana. After a blink, taunt and decap/taunt again, you are almost OOM.

The only reason I'd recommend one level of terrify at level 10 is to counter portal keys.

Nidhogg

09-15-2009, 12:58 PM

Just a small heads up, but for new people learning Legionnaire, all this Dota/HoN cross talk is a great way to get bad information out there.

This is HoN, not Dota. Decap does a kill command, not 999999 damage to the target if they are below the threshold. For the ease and overall boost to the intelligence level of everyone that plays this game and reads this thread, please stick to HoN mechanics. =\

Glorify1

09-15-2009, 01:23 PM

I'd definitely recommend a power source, and upgrading your hood to khadgars.

Nedrapter

09-15-2009, 01:53 PM

Decap does a kill command, not 999999 damage to the target if they are below the threshold.

Out of topic, but i always wondered why BM doesn't kill an Axe that ulties, how it doesn't return that 999999 dmg?

Nidhogg

09-15-2009, 01:55 PM

If you read a few pages back, it has a damage cap on how much it will return in one swing.

dreamex

09-15-2009, 01:56 PM

Out of topic, but i always wondered why BM doesn't kill an Axe that ulties, how it doesn't return that 999999 dmg?

2 things.

1. BM can only return damage that is between 2-3000.

2. The damage that Axe does via Culling Blade is attributed to a dummy unit that casts Chain Lightning, not Axe himself.

Nedrapter

09-15-2009, 01:58 PM

2 things.

1. BM can only return damage that is between 2-3000.

2. The damage that Axe does via Culling Blade is attributed to a dummy unit that casts Chain Lightning, not Axe himself.

Oh i didnt know these facts, but 2-3000 Dmg? why that limit was there?
(oke the dummy unit is good choice of how the spell works.)

dreamex

09-15-2009, 02:05 PM

Oh i didnt know these facts, but 2-3000 Dmg? why that limit was there?
(oke the dummy unit is good choice of how the spell works.)

2-3000 from any single instance is the limit imposed on all damage return (Blade Mail, Nerubian Assassin's Carapce), damage redirection (Fatal Bonds, Dispersion), reactive healing (Borrowed Time, Backtrack), etc abilities.

I presume it's to prevent certain glitches creating unusual circumstances.

Oh one more thing, I'm not sure if BM is a buff or temporary state shift, but if it's a buff characteristic then Culling Blade will remove it before doing damage as well. If it's a state shift then you can disregard this as it has no bearing.

Brad1

09-15-2009, 06:08 PM

Yo, Glorify, I'm really happy for you, I'ma let you finish, but ElementUser had one of the best Legionnaire guides of all time!

Kwaurtz

09-15-2009, 09:12 PM

I lolled.

Glorify1

09-16-2009, 01:58 PM

Updating this guide for the recent patch.

facers

09-16-2009, 06:16 PM

Hey Glorify/Angel whats your name on warcraft/ggc?

Utred

09-17-2009, 10:48 AM

This should be premium tbh.

Murlox

09-17-2009, 11:16 AM

I do exactly this build and i find it to be the strongest. As explained, you don't "need" vanguard.

However, i found that buying a bottle in mid game (i buy one right after phase boots and before portal key) is very efficient mana wise : you can afford to cast taunt on creeps if you need some fast cash (which helps farming portal key faster) and still have some mana ready in case of a sudden fight.

Also I want to always have the mana for ulti, and bottle permits that most of the time.

And since your core items are only 5 items, you can easily fit a bottle in the last slot.

Try it, I enjoy legio way more with this, since i can spam taunt here and there and don't have to be over-careful with my mana.

Testknight

09-24-2009, 02:07 PM

Now that Heart has been nerfed, are you still adamant about no Vanguard -> Heart? The 2% regen out of combat is hardly relevant for Lego, since he's always getting hit (it could help while blink running -> juking, or after-fight), so its a heavy nerf for him. And, also, would you prefer the new Treads (HP + Armor is beautiful in such a cheap item, can also be used to completely remedy his mana problems) over the now-carry oriented phase boots on him (I'm guessing yes, although the lack of Phase sucks for chasing even with Dagger).

Glorify1

09-24-2009, 09:09 PM

I'm not going to update the guide, since there is talk in both DotA and hon of these items being switched once again.

Magic stick is enough to handle all of your mana needs pretty much, so bottle is negligible.

Int treads also handles all of your early game mana needs, which can later be switched into strength versions.

laycast

09-24-2009, 09:21 PM

I wish you would all stop using DOTA terms, especially for people who didn't play it, like myself. I catch on to what the items are but you're playing HoN, not DOTA, it'd be nice if you called them by their literal names.

NiGHTsC

10-03-2009, 01:58 PM

Hm...no more armors from shoots, does Legion is lacking of armor on early/mid game?

Qwernakus

10-03-2009, 02:13 PM

I think its a waste that you make a thorough and in depth guide, yet does not take time to look up the HoN names for example Shiva and Vanguard. I suggest you fix it.

EDIT: So, reading through the replies, i saw your comment on this. The point stills stands though - Just because a player never played DotA doesnt mean he is not good enough to be competive.

Renaissance

11-29-2009, 05:33 AM

good guide

Glorify1

11-29-2009, 12:27 PM

good guide

Necro'd.

DemiKid123

11-29-2009, 06:59 PM

ElementUser

11-29-2009, 07:48 PM

I saw a thread about Sacrificial Stone on Legionnaire the other day and I'm wondering if Glorify can give a response on that too:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=47257

11-30-2009, 02:43 AM

Why did my post get deleted?

pyrated

11-30-2009, 03:04 AM

the OP is a really disgusting person, I feel like following the other dude's guide just because of that

XQuicksilver

11-30-2009, 03:09 AM

Hello, first off I'd like to say this is a really well written guide and I appreciate the effort you put into it.

My question is in regards to legionaires jungling and the guides deterance away from Helm of the Black Legion. I read the part justifying your dislike for HoTBL, and can't find anything wrong with his reasoning as to why Vanguard shouldn't be used for any other hero, but for legionaire (and only him) it was always part of my core build. My jungling style is always to hit the easy camps first off while stacking two of the other camps 3 times, then when I have vanguard I hit my stacked camps and buy boots and start ganking/farming portal key. Being able to farm camps stacked 3-4 times at low levels with legionaire is a big reason of why I like him because if gives him a great early economy. But when I went with the core build in this guide I found I couldn't tank those stacked camps and my early gold income suffered, I ended up getting boots a lot later than I would have liked and port key even later. As for my performance for team fights and ganking, I found it to be about the same as having vanguard.
Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong? Should I be ganking sooner and not stacking camps? I get that shamans headdress is part of barrier idol so it has some late game function as opposed to vanguard, but wouldn't getting an item that completely suites Lego and can give you awesome farming potential be just as viable?

Edit: when this guide was written phase boots still gave armor

pyrated

11-30-2009, 03:16 AM

Also, the OP needs to separate dota from hon in his head...posting information about dota mechanics in hon is just misleading, and it makes you sound like an idiot

mithrandi

11-30-2009, 03:43 AM

Edit: when this guide was written phase boots still gave armor

I've been getting Plated Greaves, starting with the Ringmail. I haven't ever really had any jungling problems with this build, although I don't usually tend to be a heavy jungler on Legionnaire just because he's so awesome in most lanes. I probably wouldn't hit the harder stacked camps before at least grabbing your helm of the Victim (for the armour boost as well as the regen); if you're still having problems, maybe you should just not stack the camps so much?

If you really want tanking gear sooner, I'd go with Ringmail / Platemail, which you build into Frostfield Plate or Daemonic Breastplate later, instead of Lifetube / Beastheart for HotBL; they're in the same price region, but armour scales up much better.

EDIT: Doh! Plated Greaves, not Sacred Greaves...

mithrandi

11-30-2009, 03:54 AM

1. What do you think of demonic breastplate instead of shiva's? Since they are both late game items, wouldnt the mana on shiva's be overkill since you get stats over terrify, plus the -armor would give your blades a bit of dmg since your blades are physical...

I would personally say this is situational; Daemonic Breastplate is kinda awfully expensive, but if you're struggling to stay alive, grabbing more armour (Ringmail / Platemail) is a good idea, and then you might as well build it into an item. If you have lots of high-damage-output agility carries or something, then that -armour is going to be quite effective too.

On the other hand, while the +int on Frostfield Plate is definitely overkill, the AoE slow effect makes for a great followup to your taunt, and the -attack speed aura helps to keep you alive as those enemy carries beat mercilessly on you (or the rest of your team).

2. Have you ever thought of TRYING bloodstone? since you get most kills early game, it is viable as a first core item and when you die (you actually will if the other team is coordinated enough) you can help your team more with the aoe heal and you respawn fast as well...

If Frostfield Plate is overkill for +mana, Sacrificial Stone is ridiculously so; just the Pickled Brain is probably enough to ensure you never have mana problems again... Also, as an initiator, if you're dying, it's probably because you blinked in / ran in, taunted, and then died to focus fire from the other time; in which case, the rest of your team is probably still on full health, and the AoE heal won't do anyone any good. The decreased respawn time might be useful... but I'd rather just spend the gold on more armour / HP so I don't die in the first place.

This might have made more sense back when Sacrificial Stone gave you HP regen as well, but even then, it seems frightfully expensive for the limited utility you're getting out of it.

XQuicksilver

11-30-2009, 05:42 AM

After playing with this build again, I have to say I really prefer going with Helm of the Black Legion. Whatever you say about its late game usefulness, the mitigated damage is worth it, and I find my late game suffers regardless.
HoTL FTW

Kutip

11-30-2009, 08:38 AM

i think if you buy the new boots (plated something... forgot the name), you can get through early/mid without helm pretty well.

Glorify1

12-02-2009, 04:11 PM

Helm of the bad Legionnaire. Nuff said.

12-03-2009, 03:09 PM

What about getting barbed armor (next to shaman's headress, portal key and ghost marchers) and use that together with taunt? I've noticed that predator can no longer outleech you if you use barbed armor and that engineer gets ****** over because he'll be attacking you and loses his turret.

Glorify1

12-03-2009, 03:19 PM

Useful against the two heroes you stated, also provides that bump of armor you need.

12-03-2009, 08:55 PM

Is there anything that deals with NH? His damage seems off the charts.

And can you show vids(with sound preferably)?XD

Glorify1

12-03-2009, 09:06 PM

Night hound is bad, you deal with him by laughing at him.

12-03-2009, 10:09 PM

I tried that, but that didn't work:P

12-04-2009, 10:12 PM

DOUBLE POST

It might be a good idea to add that whirling blade is triggered even while legionnaire is stunned. So that means that when legionnaire gets stunlocked and his opponents bash him while he's in melee range, they still get hurt and as legio comes out of the stun/holds/etc etc he can ulti to kill them. Also the fact that legionnaire is in a stunlock means his teammates can kill the opposing team.

Ram

12-05-2009, 09:12 AM

Hi, thank you for this guide.

I play legionaire a lot. I m an average player and i used to get barbed armor just after blink, before heart. But you did not even put it in the items build. I find it devastating for ennemies mid/late game. Level 25 madman actualy completly killed himself on my taunt with barbed armor.

Psyhack3r

12-05-2009, 02:22 PM

the gude is good but ...... Vanguard ????
dude u are noob i hate u !!!
it is Helm of the facking Black Legion !!!!!!!!!!!!

WSLaFleur

12-05-2009, 09:25 PM

Hate to spoil your fun brah but Element already did a near-perfect guide of Legionnaire

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=11992

This guide clearly favors Helm of the Black Legion,
which is more or less Glorify's major dissonance.
Please pay attention.

WSLaFleur

12-05-2009, 09:28 PM

the gude is good but ...... Vanguard ????
dude u are noob i hate u !!!
it is Helm of the facking Black Legion !!!!!!!!!!!!

Stop it. You're taking up space with your inane garble,
but you do have a point. For all the effort put into
forging this excellent guide, Glorify couldn't be
bothered to study the new names for items?

We are here to promote HoN as an up-
and-coming game, not DotA.

Please try to remember that.

WSLaFleur

12-05-2009, 09:30 PM

I don't believe you mentioned Barbed Armor,
which I believe to be invaluable simply
as a counter to a good many heroes.

Not to mention it increases your
initial taunt damage by 100%
of your enemy's damage.

ElementUser

12-05-2009, 09:51 PM

Nice triple post.....and ToxicHobo posted that a long time ago

Glorify1

12-05-2009, 10:00 PM

Helm of the Bad Legionnaire

Leetard179

12-06-2009, 03:08 AM

dude you are playing hon not dota. please use hon terms

12-06-2009, 07:45 PM

I know this isn't within the scope of this guide, but what do you get when your opponents rely mostly on physical attacks? Do you rush frost armor or something else?

PinkoMarx

12-06-2009, 08:59 PM

Just pointing out a type I've seen a few times in the guide.
"would of"
"couldn't of"
"should of"

Its would/could/should have.

ma5

12-07-2009, 08:53 PM

I think Greaves are a key item for him now. Greave your team then blink in, this helps reduce the auto attack damage you take early on.

Also, Barbed Wire would only be good if it happens they have a lot of physical attack damage, otherwise it's more of an item for squishier heroes to get.

Celentar

12-30-2009, 06:08 PM

I dont jungle with legi, and my skill build is the same but switch tount with terify. and my item build is. Plate greave, 2 black legion helms, sham headdress, demonic breastplate and behemoth heart. and this is not to get any sort of kills, it's only for tanking

ElementUser

12-30-2009, 09:24 PM

I dont jungle with legi, and my skill build is the same but switch tount with terify.

2 black legion helms

No, just no. (to both)

Very inefficient ways to spend your gold and skill points

Leetard179

01-19-2010, 11:29 AM

Hotbl is a very good item.

40 damage block is heaps early on since most heroes are only hitting like 100 to begin with. you're also pretty much immune to creeps and +300hp is great.

Shamans headdress is situational as not every game has very heavy nukers and you're much better off with the 40 dmg block