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Meowth
09-08-2009, 03:45 PM
I like the overall idea of the Scout hero, however I believe the main flaw in him is the confusion as to what his actual role in a game is. This confusion is due in large part to his skillset, which kind of makes him a utility hero and a carry at the same time.

The role of the Scout should be Utility, Ganking, and Allowing no enemies to get away-- he should not be a carry hero. While evasion/crit seems like a nice idea on a "scout" based hero, the main premise of a "scout" is NOT to stand toe-to-toe and fight anyone. A "scout" is ment to quickly move in and out of combat, set up ganks, finish off enemies who escape while near-death, and assisting his team.

As for suggestions on how to clarify his role in the game, I offer the following:

Vanish: This is the scout's prime skill. The increased speed, unitwalking, and invisibility allow him to "scout" effortlessly and safely, as well as provide a quick escape if he gets low himself. The low mana cost and cooldown allow the skill to be used to harass early game with backstab damage for lane control as well. I think this skill is fine as is, and should not be changed.

Electric Eye: This skill is 100% utility based. It is essentially a free permanent observer wards with truesight, this goes completely with the idea of Scout being utility based. The only suggestion I offer for this skill is to allow it's use while stealthed! by using eye when stealthed a proper gank can be set up on a hero who can invis, as well as allowing the scout to safely place the eye in a hostile area!

Improved Dexterity: I believe this skill is counter-productive to the "scout" Role. The third skill should fit into the same "Ganking, Scouting, Assisting" role as his other skills. This skill should be REPLACED with the following:

Ensnaring Trap: Through years of training in the forests of Caldawar, the Scout has mastered the art of trapping. Traps are invisible and trigger when enemy heroes walk over them. Traps are permanent until replaced, triggered or killed. Traps are magic immune, and provide slight vision around the trap itself. Traps may be placed while invisible.

(vision is about the same as a sentry ward, traps would have 1hp)

Slow AoE: 400
Manacost: 50
Cooldown: 15/13/11/9

Level 1: 1 trap maximum - Slows 40% for 4 seconds
Level 2: 2 traps maximum - Slows 40% for 4 seconds
Level 3: 3 traps maximum - Slows 40% for 4 seconds
Level 4: 4 traps maximum - Slows 40% for 4 seconds

Marksman Shot: The concept of the scout having an ability to finish off a hero is a great idea, it goes along with his stopping escapers greatly. However I feel it is flawed in that it can be used as a spammed nuke whenever the player feels like it. I think this goes against the actual idea of "assassination" and "no escape". Marksman Shot should be reworked as follows:

No Escape: Preying upon the weakened physical and mental state of a fleeing enemy, the Scout takes careful aim with his crossbow and fires a long-range shot to finish them off. No Escape deals bonus damage if the target is alone and/or wounded. If the target survives, the sheer force of the blow will cripple them briefly.

Range: 1,500/2,000/2,500
Manacost: 75/150/225
Cooldown: 60/50/40
Cast time: 3.0/2.25/1.5

Level 1: 200 Damage - Targets near no allied heroes take 80 bonus damage, Targets under 40% max HP take 100 bonus damage. 40% slow for 4 seconds.

Level 2: 250 Damage - Targets near no allied heroes take 160 bonus damage, Targets under 45% max HP take 200 bonus damage. 40% slow for 4 seconds.

Level 3: 300 Damage - Targets near no allied heroes take 240 bonus damage, Targets under 50% max HP take 300 bonus damage. 40% slow for 4 seconds.

Overall I believe these changes will increase the Scout's synergy in team play and really hammer out a place for him as a great hero in HoN!

Thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion, any comments or complaints are welcome! ^.^

Kadabra
09-08-2009, 03:59 PM
This is a very well written suggestion. I agree that scout needs some serious "tweaking" and what you have here is a very viable solution. Giving him all the utility he needs to be succesful as a support hero, while still having some killing ability.

Templar-like traps are an interesting idea. Either something like those, or even a suriken-toss (like Bounty Hunter) small nuke + mini stun to stop people from teleporting out after a big fight. This could be used in combo with his windwalk ability to do some substantial early game harassment as well.

EDIT: The more I think about this the more I am leaning towards the small nuke type spell. I am thinking something like...Spectre's dagger. A small nuke for like 200 at level 4 (so it's not too strong early) for cheap mana...that applies a ministun and a slight snare for 5 secs...maybe 30% reduced move speed. This way he can lane with WW and Nuke...help gank with his snare...then become the "scout" for team fights mid-late game and still have his finisher + vision abilities.

Isin
09-08-2009, 04:01 PM
I like the idea of changing his ult to something that you use to finish off enemies. That allows him to make full use of his double backstab.

ToxicHobo
09-08-2009, 04:03 PM
I like the idea of changing his ult to something that you use to finish off enemies. That allows him to make full use of his double backstab.

It should be used to initiate. Scout shouldn't really be getting kills

Isin
09-08-2009, 04:07 PM
That's actually the biggest problem with Scout. He can do only one of two things: Initiate with his ult, or double backstab. I'd rather see Scout turn into a carry that would use his ult to finish enemies.

Meowth
09-08-2009, 04:10 PM
Templar-like traps are an interesting idea. Either something like those, or even a suriken-toss (like Bounty Hunter) small nuke + mini stun to stop people from teleporting out after a big fight. This could be used in combo with his windwalk ability to do some substantial early game harassment as well.

Yea I did think of templar when designing the traps, however i did dumb them down rather severely from her's --- I feel that putting a nuke/mini on him like Bounty hunter would lead him to be played more like a carry.


It should be used to initiate. Scout shouldn't really be getting kills

The main point of the new ultimate is to get kills that would otherwise be getting away. Hence why it is so designed around heroes that are escaping (Low hp, alone). It is not designed around kill stealing, hence why it loses a majority of it's damage during teamfights when the enemy is unlikely to be alone.

ToxicHobo
09-08-2009, 04:11 PM
The main point of the new ultimate is to get kills that would otherwise be getting away. Hence why it is so designed around heroes that are escaping (Low hp, alone). It is not designed around kill stealing, hence why it loses a majority of it's damage during teamfights when the enemy is unlikely to be alone.

If he used his ult to initiate maybe the hero wouldn't be escaping :/

Meowth
09-08-2009, 04:22 PM
EDIT: The more I think about this the more I am leaning towards the small nuke type spell. I am thinking something like...Spectre's dagger. A small nuke for like 200 at level 4 (so it's not too strong early) for cheap mana...that applies a ministun and a slight snare for 5 secs...maybe 30% reduced move speed. This way he can lane with WW and Nuke...help gank with his snare...then become the "scout" for team fights mid-late game and still have his finisher + vision abilities.

Indeed it would be nice, however, Spectre is already being ported over :P

Kadabra
09-08-2009, 04:24 PM
It should be used to initiate. Scout shouldn't really be getting kills

I disagree with this. He can already grant vision with WW and Wards. There is no reason for him to sit back 2000 yards and spam an arrow. A scout should be running around in the "back lines" looking for that magmus who's about to blink and rape your team. Having his ult as an initiate takes away from his "role" and gives people even more reason to just sit around and spam arrows all game like some players do now.

Squirtle
09-08-2009, 04:26 PM
Indeed it would be nice, however, Spectre is already being ported over :P
Spectre's dagger does not mini stun, grants move speed, slows the enemy, and gives you no collision with anything (units, terrain), and lasts much longer then a few seconds. It is nowhere near the same as dagger and something like this would be nice to have, as a point id like to see it castable in near-melee range- around 300, so its not spammable or used when ur not actually in the fight.

Overall the changes are nice, i just dislike the idea of stealing a THIRD heroes ability (its already ripping 2 heroes apart). So the idea of the nuke posted above is nice.

Meowth
09-08-2009, 05:04 PM
Eh i can see what you are worried about by combining so many different hero ideas into one.

However just from the way that I viewed scout I feel like the traps would be a better addition than a shuriken-like ability, Although having a ministun is a nice bonus.

ToxicHobo
09-08-2009, 05:08 PM
I disagree with this. He can already grant vision with WW and Wards. There is no reason for him to sit back 2000 yards and spam an arrow. A scout should be running around in the "back lines" looking for that magmus who's about to blink and rape your team. Having his ult as an initiate takes away from his "role" and gives people even more reason to just sit around and spam arrows all game like some players do now.

ult someone, vanish, scout, attack, vanish, ult

Kadabra
09-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Can you not read? He shouldn't be an initiator in any way....except for maybe in a gank. His ultimate should not be spammable Long-Range nuke + snare.

slipthrough
09-08-2009, 11:57 PM
I like the idea, but if this was to be implemented into the game, I think the developers would have to rename him into "assassin." I think a lot of you are missing the point of a scout, which I think is a little hard, seeing as how its in his name. Scout. He scouts. He is more for preemptive strikes against would be gankers or, yes, initiating a gank and opening with his marksmen shot then single handedly taking out enemy's or carrying the team. Scout is an annoyance, a fly to be swat. And that gives him his power. I do feel that improved dexterity doesn't really fit with the hero, but marksman shot is fine, imo.

Meowth
09-09-2009, 01:24 PM
I like the idea, but if this was to be implemented into the game, I think the developers would have to rename him into "assassin." I think a lot of you are missing the point of a scout, which I think is a little hard, seeing as how its in his name. Scout. He scouts. He is more for preemptive strikes against would be gankers or, yes, initiating a gank and opening with his marksmen shot then single handedly taking out enemy's or carrying the team. Scout is an annoyance, a fly to be swat. And that gives him his power. I do feel that improved dexterity doesn't really fit with the hero, but marksman shot is fine, imo.

I suppose that my rework to his ulti does provide more of an "assassin" feel to him, however i believe the traps wards and stealth all fit the "scout" theme perfectly well. I just dont feel that a MELEE hero should be opening on someone from 2500 range away :D

argondey
09-09-2009, 01:39 PM
wow op ulti there, anyways, scout isnt likely to change much. The reason, If you ever happen to play savage2 you will see that while scout appears to have come from dota, he is a carbon copy of the scout in savage2.

blurryrox
09-09-2009, 02:40 PM
scout would lose his only farming skill if you replace the 3rd skill. and scout is actually wasnt supposed to get much kills, so i dont think replacing his 3rd skill is neccesary. but i really like the idea of using his electric eye while stealthing.

Kadabra
09-11-2009, 01:38 PM
wow op ulti there

How is the ulti suggested OP? It does just about the same damage as it does now. A bit more when the hero is alone and at low HP. It is a long range finisher that only does its full potential when there aren't other heroes near by. Making him only able to finish off those heroes that would have normally escaped at very low HP.

Right now, people who play scout are just a nuisance with ulti, vanish, backstab, vanish, ulti....etc. The scout should never use his ultimate as an opener imo.

DownyBear
09-12-2009, 05:38 AM
I like this alot.. though I would prefer a Gondar come back over scout remake.. If they gave him ensnaring trap I feel he would be a much greater asset to the team.