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View Full Version : Heroes that may need to be tuned down....



Crazily
07-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Most heroes are supposed to have a counter, I do realize this, but this is also a beta and there is alot of tweaking that needs to be done.

I feel I have played enough now (roughly 50 games, 55% win rate, 1:1 KD ratio) and I am a pretty average player so this is based on my experience so far.

Now granted, ANYONE can make a hero look bad if they suck, but if you give the same hero to someone who knows what they are doing...you can get a true measure of that hero's balance.

So far from what I have seen, when the following heroe's are in the hands of a skilled player they are completeley overpowered/imbalanced.

Madman
Accursed
Jeziel
Night Hound

Time and again I have seen these heroes (again in the hands of someoen who knows what they are doing) become nearly unstoppable. I have seen Madmen solo an entire team of 5 by himself....without falling under half life.

I realize there is Hex stick in the game, but it only goes so far, espeically if they grab a Magic IMmunity item.

Now I am not saying to nerf these guys into oblivion or anything, I like playing most of them as much as any of the other heroes...but I do feel they need tuning down in their current state.

Elmy
07-10-2009, 06:54 PM
Amazing. SA (DotA's Night Hound) is considered an underpowered hero. Here, a nerfed version (ult sucks), is considered overpowered.

How 'bout that.

And lol Abbadon overpowered =.="

Crazily
07-10-2009, 07:07 PM
Amazing. SA (DotA's Night Hound) is considered an underpowered hero. Here, a nerfed version (ult sucks), is considered overpowered.

How 'bout that.

And lol Abbadon overpowered =.="


SA underpowered?

Ok.

:cool:

Elmy
07-10-2009, 07:12 PM
SA underpowered?

Ok.

:cool:

Lol. =/

Motavia
07-10-2009, 07:45 PM
So far from what I have seen, when the following heroe's are in the hands of a skilled player they are completeley overpowered/imbalanced.

Accursed

I don't really see how Accursed is OP. He just can't do enough to the other team to make his unkillability an op factor.

Jerry
07-10-2009, 08:04 PM
Hellbringer's heal is euh, ridiculous.

Elman1
07-10-2009, 08:35 PM
I don't really see how Accursed is OP. He just can't do enough to the other team to make his unkillability an op factor.

And his ulti's ridiculously useless if the enemy knows what it is. You just need to stop hitting him from 3-5 seconds and then finish him.

SausageEx
07-10-2009, 09:18 PM
Only really 3 heroes.

Thunderbringer.
Swiftblade.
Madman.

OxyContin
07-10-2009, 10:43 PM
Now granted, ANYONE can make a hero look bad if they suck, but if you give the same hero to someone who knows what they are doing...you can get a true measure of that hero's balance.

And anyone can make a hero look overpowered if they get fed/fat enough.

None of those heroes are overpowered, strong/hard to kill maybe, but hardly overpowered.

07-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Swift Blade bugs me early game. If he gets in range for Blade Fury, you're pretty much guaranteed dead. Only hero that really stands out.

Mad Man can be strong, but only really in the end game once he acquires a few key (and expensive) items. Him, along with the other powerful AGI heroes (Night Hound, Scout) really have to be abused so that they can't gain the power necessary in the long term. But if you just let them kill creeps alone all game long, you deserve to get destroyed by them in the late game.

ClownFoot
07-10-2009, 11:15 PM
I would say moon queen needs a bit of a tone down too.

Powster
07-10-2009, 11:18 PM
Swift Blade is the only one I have problems with. I don't know what I can use to beat it... Everyone else I can counter..

TLSHadow
07-11-2009, 12:58 AM
Any hero is overpowered in the hands of a skilled player in this game. Zzz

Mats
07-11-2009, 01:32 AM
All of them

kiramon
07-11-2009, 03:37 AM
Any hero is overpowered in the hands of a skilled player in this game. Zzz


I run for the hills when I see a Zephyr coming at me.

HWOOP

Nome
07-11-2009, 04:07 AM
Any hero is overpowered in the hands of a skilled player in this game. Zzz

Worst attitude ever.

Karmashock
07-11-2009, 04:12 AM
Mad man is demonstrably over powered. I've seen him used repeatedly to go 3 or 4v1 and he kills them all. His high damage mixed with high attack speed when paired with life stealing just makes him an absurd character.


Sure you can stun him but it's hard to stun him long enough EVERY SINGLE TIME to kill him entirely in that stun. After all, all he has to do once he gets out of the stun is just start eating someone. He'll probably heal himself faster then you can nail him in most cases. And then if it's really nasty he'll just go invisible for a few seconds when the focus is off him and then attack again.

Even a lot of the veteran dota players have agreed that this hero is over powered. I don't know if anyone credible is really disagreeing with that point.


I don't know. Maybe have his armor drop or have him take a percentage more damage. Something to make him conceivably defeatable in the late game.

wAzz
07-11-2009, 05:30 AM
You guys need a bunch of players who have a good sense of balance (I think in dota, Icefrog has some competitive players helping him out with balance) to help balancing. I mean, look at this thread, night hound op? lol.

From what ive seen + know so far:

Not a concern:
Madman is getting changed next version so thats not an issue.
Swiftblades "hit while spinning" is also getting fixed + as mentioned in another thread, when more heroes with direct stuns get added, he will be fine.

Imba:
Hellbringers "live void" is overpowered.
Puppet muster is too strong overall (he takes more skill though so its not as obvious).
Dark lady seems op but im not totally sure, perhaps with good players she is easier to control.

Underpowered:
Predator sucks. "double edge" (dunno the hon name) sucks hardcore and his ulti cooldown is too long.
Armadon/Wildsoul (do the dota 6.60 changes)

Netukka
07-11-2009, 06:13 AM
Worst attitude ever.
Its the truth, at least considering the general pub games -_-

crawd
07-11-2009, 11:54 AM
night hound is far from being op since if he can get silenced and stunned out of stealth which is different from dota.

Motavia
07-11-2009, 12:41 PM
And his ulti's ridiculously useless if the enemy knows what it is. You just need to stop hitting him from 3-5 seconds and then finish him.

Yeah, but you can't say: "Well HEY! If nobody understands my ulti, then it's great!" Because most people understand it.

FiNGERS
07-11-2009, 03:07 PM
Umm. SA in DotA is not underpowered, nor is he underpowered in HoN, you just have to know how to play/react accordingly. Swiftblade is strong but I don't know how OP yet. Madman is easily counterable with blademail (seriously try it out. 100% pure damage rapes him bad). Accursed is only strong right now because of the lack of disables/snares/roots to keep him immobilized without him taking too much damage during this ult (that and people don't know what his ult does).

Matarei
07-11-2009, 07:36 PM
The main concern with Madman is that his STR gain is so high for an Agi assassin hero.

Accursed is far from Overpowered, the main reason why it may seem that way it's because people heal him to full hp when his ultimate is activated.

Swiftblade is only OP because there is nothing really that outdpses him.

Jeziel is a slightly buffed omniknight, but he is far from OP

Night Hound, is not OP but it's OP when people are too cheap to buy sentries and Dust.

Mugenrider
07-11-2009, 07:47 PM
I got raped by these heros;
Madman
Accursed
Jeziel
Night Hound =\.
Nerf them please so it won't happen again T_T.
I fixed your post for you.
Accursed OP? Why? Cause a tank..can tank? :eek:
Night Hound. No. He was fine in DotA, he is fine now.
Jeziel, No.
I never really had any problems going against Swiftblade, nor I see them dominate that much. I actually beat him one on one with Zephyr. OMG is Zephyr OP?!?!
Madman might be but everyone else is just a laugh out loud.

kane2
07-11-2009, 07:55 PM
"in the hands of a skilled player"

Good players tend to rape with anything they are given, characters like madman need to be kept on a tight leash and killed a few times. They are pretty squishy and a nice stun and a bit of focus sorts them out. If you choose not to and leave them alone or even worse let them kill you, they will push your **** in come end game.


Any character you let feed even Zephyr becomes ridiculous, i have seen him have a regen of 46, i was in the fountain as some caster i forget which and mine was only 39.

The fact that items and levels create such a huge gap in the survivability is my only gripe with the game, imo everything needs to be about half as effective.

Ganjafied
07-12-2009, 12:56 AM
None of the heroes from DotA (Night Hound, Swiftblade, etc.) are overpowered, with the exception of maybe the Defiler (Death Prophet) who is a very strong hero.

HoN heroes that may need to be toned down:

Madman - FOR SURE. He is ridiculous; he scales even BETTER than Naix did before he was changed and has a 40% movespeed increase Wind Walk which also slows his target. Yeah, that's fair. Especially on top of his other movespeed/attackspeed increasing move and a ---36%--- chance to do DOUBLE damage. I still say that his Stalk skill should be the same as it is now, but without the invisibility. That, and his ultimate should have a longer cooldown.

Zephyr - As much as it pains me to say it, as he is my favorite hero in HoN, Zephyr is pretty overpowered. I play him just like Defiler : Rush Bloodstone (sacrificial stone) and Phase Boots, then stack HP (heart, vanguard, w/e). He is even more mobile than Death Prophet, has much more survivability, and dishes out just as much damage. On top of that, his Wind Control is amazing; even more so than Defiler's silence (which it should be, as an ultimate on a fairly long cooldown).

Woolygimp
07-12-2009, 01:50 AM
Umm. SA in DotA is not underpowered, nor is he underpowered in HoN, you just have to know how to play/react accordingly. Swiftblade is strong but I don't know how OP yet. Madman is easily counterable with blademail (seriously try it out. 100% pure damage rapes him bad). Accursed is only strong right now because of the lack of disables/snares/roots to keep him immobilized without him taking too much damage during this ult (that and people don't know what his ult does).

You can say what you want, but I have considerable experience with carry heroes including Warbeast, Legion, Madman, etc. and none rape nearly as hard as madman.

Warbeast can put out the punishment but he only has X seconds of rapage until he's out of metamorphisis and a sitting duck with NO escape moves and base movement speed along with no snares. You can get someone down to 1% health and if you lose your form they are getting away.

Legion is pretty clutch but again he's slow.

What makes madman so good is you can run right into the middle of a group of people and initate from stealth, or wait until they are pre-occupied and take out their casters from the rear with a ****ING SNARE that ensures they aren't going anywhere while you kill them <2 seconds. If you get targeted, Oh my god... you just pop wind walk and you're already across the map...

wait, did i mention that? madman doesn't even need post haste for offense/defense because he can go from one edge of the map to the other in retardedly short periods of time - IN STEALTH...................


don't you ****ing dare say he's anywhere near balanced. he's the best carry hero by loads - and even though he may not be able to take a warbeast/legion in 1v1 he has the tools to ensure that the other teams casters/support will be thoroughly raped and that he'll NEVER have to fight a fight he can't win.

ever. Oh and his super attack speed makes it so easy for lane control with this hero. Part of the difficulty of a carry hero should be it's bad early game, and trust me heroes like the warbeast have bad early game because they can NOT control a lane worth a damn. Slow animations, very low utility, very low hp, etc... they get dominated without serious help. W/ madman I can deny like...a madman because his animation is so fluid and his attack speed so quick. You can hit and retreat, hit and retreat - you don't have to wait for the animation to finish leaving you vulnerable to ranged.

Oh, and extend too far? Incoming gank? windwalk.
Other lane open? Windwalk.
Need **** from secret shop fast? Windwalk?
Die and need to get back? Windwalk?

Nothing in this game should give a 40% movement speed increase, especially not ****ing stealth. This is also the problem with the scout. Stealth classes should have to set up ambushes and anticipate movement, not ****ing run down people. Take away stealth and madman would still be overpowered as ****. It has little to do with stealth - mostly the retarded movement speed.

Madman is like War Beast stuck in metamorphis form w/ stealth, a snare, and a 36% chance to do double damage. (no shitty pets, but pets don't mean a damn end game just a waste of mana). That's such a good analogy that anyone thinking that madman is remotely balanced should play war beast and come back and tell me all of the advantages war beast have over the MM.

SonOfChair
07-12-2009, 02:21 AM
....
Hellbringers "live void" is overpowered.
.....

AGREED!

Ive been playing this hero alot lately, and this skill alone can let me survive ganks easily. Just cast, then ult, and sit back and autoattack. Your attacks + demon will heal you pretty quickly and can tank several hits.

And when you are solo laning or pushing, dont even bother bringing any regen items. Just get level 1 Life Void. Fun to cast this on a group of creeps attacking near your tower (you can go from <10% HP to 100% HP in mere seconds with this)

Crazily
07-12-2009, 03:51 AM
I fixed your post for you.
Accursed OP? Why? Cause a tank..can tank? :eek:
Night Hound. No. He was fine in DotA, he is fine now.
Jeziel, No.
I never really had any problems going against Swiftblade, nor I see them dominate that much. I actually beat him one on one with Zephyr. OMG is Zephyr OP?!?!
Madman might be but everyone else is just a laugh out loud.

Nice try but I am actually giving an honest opinion here, has absolutley nothing to do with me being killed by any particular hero, get a clue.

Why don't you try playing the game some more before you bother posting here, your obviously pretty clueless if you don't see a problem with Swiftblade even.

Swiftblade will dominate any game as long as the player is not terrible. My first time playing him was tonight actually and I ended up 18-3 and we won. He is getting toned down next patch, already confirmed, but I guess you think he's "ok" rofl.....pretty much just validates my thought that your not able to give any solid feedback on this game, other then the typical "l2play n00b!!!" answers.

Elmy
07-12-2009, 04:40 AM
Nice try but I am actually giving an honest opinion here, has absolutley nothing to do with me being killed by any particular hero, get a clue.

Why don't you try playing the game some more before you bother posting here, your obviously pretty clueless if you don't see a problem with Swiftblade even.

Swiftblade will dominate any game as long as the player is not terrible. My first time playing him was tonight actually and I ended up 18-3 and we won. He is getting toned down next patch, already confirmed, but I guess you think he's "ok" rofl.....pretty much just validates my thought that your not able to give any solid feedback on this game, other then the typical "l2play n00b!!!" answers.



Toned down = Can't attack while spinning anymore. That's not intentional, it's a fix, and it's hardly going to make a difference. Attacking during spin isn't what is making people cry. People sucking is what is making them cry.

Watever
07-12-2009, 10:15 AM
I really don't understand why people are whining about Swiftblade of all the heroes. Whine about Jaz, Madman or whatever, but Swiftblade is a nerfed copy of Juggernaut due to having that horrible counterattack skill. Losing Healingward really takes away a lot of utility from the hero as a nicely placed ward can make or break a push. The only thing you can legitly whine about is the spinattack bug and that is a bug which is going to get fixed.

So srsly. Shut it. Right now the community looks like a bunch of whiney kids.

This is the typical "New = OP" syndrome that plagues DotA every version when a new hero comes out. People will whine because a new hero raped them and cry for nerfs, not because the hero is actually overpowered, but because they have no effin idea how to counter it. The result is a SMALL nerf to that hero the next major version and people shut up because they start to realize how to play against it, not because he was slightly tuned down. In some cases the hero almost disappears from public games because people realize that after a few weeks they actually need skill to play it against people that know what it does and proceed to rightclick with their beloved Bounty Hunters and other agility crap.

Sabre
07-12-2009, 11:15 AM
Regardless of who people think is OP, I don't think any heroes should be nerfed, and instead the underpowered heroes should be buffed. Currently games, particularly good balanced games are taking upwards of 50-60 minutes to play out, which is a little annoying. I would rather see preadator, slither and co. get a buff to make the game go faster rather than nerf others down to their level.

NightAven
07-12-2009, 11:48 AM
Dark Lady Ultimate lasts too much...
Is there a way to counter it?

Momo
07-12-2009, 07:33 PM
Madman is pretty bad. If he's ever in my lane he's sitting way in the back not CSing because he knows he'll get dominated if he tries to CS. With his best form of disable being a slow he has a hard time getting anything done.

Heroes that DO need a nerf:

Swiftblade if his spin still allows auto attack.

Voodoo Jester needs his base damage reduced if you're going to give him a DoT WITH Maledict.

Krobelus is just as OP as she is in DotA. Personally I don't think her passive should increase her movement speed or her death wave should be on a 8-9 second cooldown as opposed to 6. Dunno why one of the best ganking heroes in the game is also one of the best defending/pushing heroes as well.

Thunderbringer has a better animation and a better cast animation. Also his ult hits invis heroes now. Since creep AI strongly discourages harassing, Zeus has a very easy time soloing middle without the presence of viper/NA etc to counter him.

Everything else seems pretty good. I wish slayer's stun didn't have quite a ridiculous delay on it's cast but it's manageable.

Increase Dark Lady's starting int or base mana or int growth or something and decrease the effectiveness of her ult. In high level coordinated matches a good Darkness Falls is just dominating but she's wildly useless early without Rhasta/CM.

Please buff Nymphora/Puppet Master/Scout and fix Devourer's hook so that if you hook them at a cliff they don't remain up atop the cliff. That's just retarded.

xahxah
07-12-2009, 08:00 PM
Madman is not hard to beat if you have a halfway decent team. Just harass him to death and don't allow him to CS. It's not that hard. He's only a threat if you allow him to freely farm, which you should never allow a carry hero to do. This is the #1 rule in Dota, and the #1 rule in any AoS game.



No hero is so absurdly OP that they warrant a huge nerfstick (like IceFrog did to Alch in a version of DotA, completely screwing up the hero, or removing Luna's ability to farm early on with Stats/Aura). Instead, a minor tweak or two plus a buff to the slightly underpowered heroes would be a much better option.

Scout_Hater
07-12-2009, 09:18 PM
night hound is not that good xD Jereziah is the most overpowered char in my opinion,he need a nerf on that AOE attack move.Btw scout need a big nerf,his ultimate do too much damage/slow and his invisibility is to good,increase damage and MS.

Cistoran
07-12-2009, 09:27 PM
Swiftblade as well as Blood Hunter should be added to that list. I've played 2 games where someone picked Blood Hunter and just completely raped everyone. It took our whole team to take him down from HALF!

Mugenrider
07-12-2009, 09:32 PM
Nice try but I am actually giving an honest opinion here, has absolutley nothing to do with me being killed by any particular hero, get a clue.

Why don't you try playing the game some more before you bother posting here, your obviously pretty clueless if you don't see a problem with Swiftblade even.

Swiftblade will dominate any game as long as the player is not terrible. My first time playing him was tonight actually and I ended up 18-3 and we won. He is getting toned down next patch, already confirmed, but I guess you think he's "ok" rofl.....pretty much just validates my thought that your not able to give any solid feedback on this game, other then the typical "l2play n00b!!!" answers.

96 matches played uhh..Yeah. Solid feedbacks? Its more like it is your stupid opinion, for real "l2play n00b!!!" Hey look, new patch is out. What is toned down? Nothing except for a temporary fix. The new patch doesn't even affect him THAT MUCH, people who owned with him before can still do the same. That is because they know how to play the game, not because the hero is op.

Hey, I just got 14-3 with the new Chen, and my team was full of noobs! We lost the game badly *no joke*, she needs a nerf!!!!! Let the devs know quickly!


You seem to think that your opinion is correct and everyone else doesn't matter :eek:

Btw, have you ever consider the fact that you said "...in good players hand" might be one reason why they own with those heroes? Have you even consider the fact that the opposite team might be full of noobs?

Like what "watever" said, Swiftblade was already nerfed with his counterskill. In DotA he had a healing ward skill that helps the team greatly. And yet you still cry about it. Night hound is another stupid thing to cry about. He has very low health, very. In team battles he die fairly quickly. Thunderbringer can kill him easily. His only good move is his fog, but if you are outside of it he's nothing. Not even going to comment on Accursed again.

Timeetyo
07-12-2009, 11:10 PM
Here is the problem with accursed - do you balance him for the highest level of play...or for noobs to avg level?

At a higher level of play he is fine. With 5 ppl that understand that you simply stop attacking he is quite killable. However, in a pub or noob match he is just a god if even 1 person keeps attacking him. This is why I feel that the accursed is poorly designed, he just can't be balanced across different skill levels. If they were to tone his ulti down so 1 person couldnt make him invincable he'd be very weak at higher levels of play.

comp615
07-13-2009, 12:07 AM
Please for the love of god nerrf predator back a bit. I like the changes, but he is WAY overpowered right now.

Mugenrider
07-13-2009, 12:15 AM
Here is the problem with accursed - do you balance him for the highest level of play...or for noobs to avg level?

At a higher level of play he is fine. With 5 ppl that understand that you simply stop attacking he is quite killable. However, in a pub or noob match he is just a god if even 1 person keeps attacking him. This is why I feel that the accursed is poorly designed, he just can't be balanced across different skill levels. If they were to tone his ulti down so 1 person couldnt make him invincable he'd be very weak at higher levels of play.
All it takes is one guy to tell them to stop hitting him when the blue fire effect is on him. That happened to me before, was quite simple, the guy got on the mic and explained it in 2 seconds and everyone got it :D

Steakmancer
07-13-2009, 03:27 AM
Ophelia's breasts.

End thread.

Woolygimp
07-13-2009, 03:34 AM
Please for the love of god nerrf predator back a bit. I like the changes, but he is WAY overpowered right now.

lol?????

Styr
07-13-2009, 03:40 AM
Ophelia's breasts.

End thread.

QFT

34DD is simply not big enough

Steakmancer
07-13-2009, 04:14 AM
QFT

34DD is simply not big enough
What about them jiggling constantly, even in idle animation?

_Archangel_
07-13-2009, 04:57 AM
I think Puppetmaster is kinda underpowered and doesn't offer a lot to his team.

Momo
07-13-2009, 05:45 PM
Why do any of you even make suggestions if you're not going to explain why something needs to be changed and how? How many times do I have to read, "Omg this hero raped me with this ability nerf it." Explain how abilities/heroes affect the metagame you goombas.

Watever
07-13-2009, 06:41 PM
Madman is pretty bad. If he's ever in my lane he's sitting way in the back not CSing because he knows he'll get dominated if he tries to CS. With his best form of disable being a slow he has a hard time getting anything done.

Heroes that DO need a nerf:

Swiftblade if his spin still allows auto attack.

Voodoo Jester needs his base damage reduced if you're going to give him a DoT WITH Maledict.

Krobelus is just as OP as she is in DotA. Personally I don't think her passive should increase her movement speed or her death wave should be on a 8-9 second cooldown as opposed to 6. Dunno why one of the best ganking heroes in the game is also one of the best defending/pushing heroes as well.

Thunderbringer has a better animation and a better cast animation. Also his ult hits invis heroes now. Since creep AI strongly discourages harassing, Zeus has a very easy time soloing middle without the presence of viper/NA etc to counter him.

Everything else seems pretty good. I wish slayer's stun didn't have quite a ridiculous delay on it's cast but it's manageable.

Increase Dark Lady's starting int or base mana or int growth or something and decrease the effectiveness of her ult. In high level coordinated matches a good Darkness Falls is just dominating but she's wildly useless early without Rhasta/CM.

Please buff Nymphora/Puppet Master/Scout and fix Devourer's hook so that if you hook them at a cliff they don't remain up atop the cliff. That's just retarded.
I'm still uncertain about Madman right now. His mix of abilities seems fairly interesting and Stalk offers good farming abilities (for a melee agility hero, that is). The thing I REALLY don't like in his concept are TWO escape abilities on a carry hero. Once he gets BKB (what's it called in HoN) he becomes virtually ungankable and that seems quite broken on a carry hero with a 120 IAS skill AND crit. Besides this game seems to be filled with blinks, leaps, windwalks and whatnot, is there really no more room for creative abilities that don't involve rapid movement in 1 direction?

Can't comment on Voodoo, it sounds broken, but I've only had the chance to test him in 1 game, which also was my 3rd or 4th game of HoN, so it's hard to tell. He needs a teammate to support him to achieve maximum effectiveness, so I doubt people will complain much about him in pubs. Organized games might be exactly the opposite however.

It's a pre-nerf Krobelus, so yea, she needs a nerf and probably a bigger one than in DotA. The MS on her passive needs to go and possibly a nerf to her pushing abilities as well. I'll disregard the best ganking hero part, however, because that sure as hell isn't correct.

Zeus, however, still has low range and I don't really notice much of a change to his casting animation. He has always been a strong hero, balacing on the fine line of balance. He probably is so noticable right now because teams consist of 3-5 agility heroes on average, for which he is the natural counter. A revealing Thunderstorm is actually a welcome thing, considering all the invis pests that have almost no downtime on their stealth skills and run at close to 522 MS. NA and Viper rarely lane against him competitvely so they don't really counter anything during laning. NA, however can counter him later. If you would want a lane counter, then that would be Tinker - nukes to boot and a good range and damage.

Dunno, I find Dragonfire easier to hit than Light Strike Array.

Agreed on DL. Darkness Falls seems extremely broken as it has absolutely no counters to it - spread out = you get picked off, stick together = invitation for a Behemoth to smash your face and end up with a teamkill, TPing can hardly be called a counter during a team fight, so that leaves only blinking out (and possibly getting picked off) or going invis. In any case it means a massive GLOBAL disadvantage in every major fight. It's like Moonlight Shadow on dope.

Scout needs his Ulti fixed to shoot fogged targets, but his Windwalk MS nerfed to max 25 - 30%. His Sentries are potentially broken. Almost all truesight skills got removed from DotA for a reason - Observers and Sentries cost gold, if you spend gold on mapcontroll that gold shoud not get destroyed by a 50 mana skill.

xahxah
07-14-2009, 02:29 AM
Krob is the best ganking hero. She lays down a silence and your whole team pretty much dies 4 seconds later.

genai
07-14-2009, 03:08 AM
If i had to agree with one thing, it would be Darkness Falls... that spell is so damn overpowered, its unbelievable! team fight, DL casts her ult and its pretty much gg, half of your team is picked off and then they just clear the rest... and the duration... god... it lasts forever (lvl 3 atleast)
maybe limit the vision, but not remove shared vision (atleast by heroes), so you atleast can see who is getting attacked and where he is... even if only thing you see are spells and ranged attacks hitting that hero lol

Walterion
07-14-2009, 04:29 AM
maybe limit the vision, but not remove shared vision (atleast by heroes),


Ermm, that is actually the point of the ultimate. Picking you off in a teamfight while you are running around like a headless chicken, sounds like a very good ultimate that HEY it's not in Dota at all. ^^

FiNGERS
07-14-2009, 05:00 AM
The problem is DotA has been balanced around nearly 100 heroes, while HoN still has less than 50. Of course there are going to be balance issues, but nothing that needs to be looked at until there are more counters in the game for our current hero roster.

Karandor
07-14-2009, 11:48 AM
Madman is insane. He's just too good at his job. Without the WW you could gank him and it wouldn't be an issue. There's no reason to take another carry over madman.


Defiler is like a pre-nerf krobelus with even fewer counters. The ultimate needs a much longer cooldown and she needs the runspeed nerf from 6.60. She's still overpowered in DotA even after the small nerf. The ultimate is the problem. The best all around ability in the game. Combined with silence there is just no way to counter her in HoN right now. Probably the best all aound hero in the game.


Those are the only 2 that REALLY stand out to me. Every other hero can be countered with picks or items or otherwise.

If you have problems with scout or night hound just grab pestilence. He absolutely pwns the crap out of them. He's probably the best hero to counter madman lategame as well. His ult is fantastic to make sure they don't get away. I've found with the lack of single target stun heros Pestilence is what you need to absolutely rape these Windwalking/invis heros.

FluffyM
07-14-2009, 12:19 PM
I'd like to share my sentiments on the Madman since there are so many people (me included actually) who find him very frustrating to play against.
There are two points I'd like to make;

1.The game quite clearly is (or will be) balanced for bigger teamgames. It's no surprise that if you play 3v3 or even 2v2, some characters will be more potent, others weaker. I can't think of a way to circumvent this.

2.The main problem I see with the madman is that he has no scaling in the true sense. He's very weak early, allright-ish from ~8-14 and then he just skyrockets and becomes almost unstoppable (especially in smaller teamgames as mentioned above...a level-gap of 5+ is not unheard of).
Now there are other heroes that don't scale well (Nymphora being a good example), but they're still very valid choices if played well. The madman seems to jump from "okay" to "god tier" once he gets his hands on a couple of items (which shouldn't be hard to manage at the current state).

The question I can't get past is if there needs to be an adjustment to bring him down to other heroes' levels or if other heroes need to be brought up to his.
Obviously this is only a beta so we will see what the balancing team and new heroes bring to the table.

xahxah
07-14-2009, 01:11 PM
-_-



There is no need to nerf Madman other than his str gain. He is fine as is. Remove the stupid +2.1 str gain and he's easy to kill. Learn to use wards, dust, and just deny and do not allow him to farm. He can't jungle all that well anyways.

Wolfy
07-14-2009, 08:41 PM
None of the heroes from DotA (Night Hound, Swiftblade, etc.) are overpowered, with the exception of maybe the Defiler (Death Prophet) who is a very strong hero.

HoN heroes that may need to be toned down:

Madman - FOR SURE. He is ridiculous; he scales even BETTER than Naix did before he was changed and has a 40% movespeed increase Wind Walk which also slows his target. Yeah, that's fair. Especially on top of his other movespeed/attackspeed increasing move and a ---36%--- chance to do DOUBLE damage. I still say that his Stalk skill should be the same as it is now, but without the invisibility. That, and his ultimate should have a longer cooldown.

Zephyr - As much as it pains me to say it, as he is my favorite hero in HoN, Zephyr is pretty overpowered. I play him just like Defiler : Rush Bloodstone (sacrificial stone) and Phase Boots, then stack HP (heart, vanguard, w/e). He is even more mobile than Death Prophet, has much more survivability, and dishes out just as much damage. On top of that, his Wind Control is amazing; even more so than Defiler's silence (which it should be, as an ultimate on a fairly long cooldown).

In all actuality i think Zephyr needs a few buffs. His leap needs to have a shorter cooldown, maybe to 8. And his ulti needs to become an Active Aura, that when he casts Wind Control it follows him instead of staying in a single Area. If you do buff the cooldown to 8 you could always nerf the damage to 200-250.

And maybe his Shield could become passive, melee evasion is passive but his Ranged reflection happens once every # seconds. Every level evasion goes up and reflection cooldown goes down. That would be amazing. lol... that would be OP XD Rofl. a personal linkens :] Lol i'm just off in never never land don't mind me

murth1
07-15-2009, 12:37 AM
I don't think Electrician's stun is long enough. It needs to last at least another 9 years for him to be a viable character.

Buff plz

Le3t
07-15-2009, 12:44 AM
My buddy went puppet master. got deso buriza. he crit on his 3rd passive for 1.5k damage.

puppet master is very good in competitive gaming (not for the crits of course)

xahxah
07-15-2009, 01:00 AM
Puppet Master is nasty good. Lots of crowd control and ability to wtf pwn heroes in seconds.

Darxio
07-15-2009, 02:10 AM
One thing bothering me in this thread.

His name is Jereziah, NOT 'Jeziel'.

SeaBlown
07-15-2009, 03:55 AM
Lol ya, Jereziah is kinda major in the S2 storyline, if that ever comes into HoN really.

I'd have to say I completely agree with WoolyGimp (upper page 2) about Madman.

Yeah, of course Madman is "beatable" if you make a point of harassing him early and often, and don't let him spend any time alone with your creeps. But seriously, there shouldn't be any one hero requiring THAT MUCH extra attention throughout the game. Nobody rages about not letting Zephyr get a few creep kills here and there. He just changes the dynamic of a game much more than any one player's character choice should.

Really, the major necessity is that there be some way of not letting stealth characters always choose their battles. Cut back on mobility, whatever.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind seeing a couple anti-stealth classes. Maybe even (call me crazy) a character that can see all stealth characters and actually outrun a few of them...

Pestilence is a step in the right direction. Throw one or two more options like that swarm of his on the table, and it might fix people's complaints about scout, nighthound, and madman all at once...

Watever
07-15-2009, 10:48 AM
Stealth is fine, lrn2ward.

Taking away the option to choose your batttles is equivalent to removing stealth from the game. DotA once had a skill on Beastmaster which summoned a Boar and a Hawk that could see invisibility, the detection was removed the next version because of making not just stealth heroes useless, but also destroying the purpouse behind gaining map control via Wards. Skills that give a constant detection in a relatively large area or give detection to a mobile unit have proven to be far too game breaking in the past, with the exception of Treants eyes, which can be countered reliably by removing the tree itself.

Scouts Electric Eye is on the limit right now, because it can be detected and removed easily, but placing it correctly still is relatively broken imo.

teknikal
07-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Puppet Master is nasty good. Lots of crowd control and ability to wtf pwn heroes in seconds.

What did he do about his low HP? That doesn't seem to be enough if a scout/madman/night hound jump you

teknikal
07-15-2009, 11:48 AM
My buddy went puppet master. got deso buriza. he crit on his 3rd passive for 1.5k damage.

puppet master is very good in competitive gaming (not for the crits of course)

What did he do about his low HP? That doesn't seem to be enough if a scout/madman/night hound jump you

This is what I meant to reply to...I cannot delete the other one :(

07-15-2009, 12:12 PM
Hellbringer's heal is euh, ridiculous.

Do you even know how it works? the more dmg you do on him when he has ult on he heals, stop hitting him n4p

Newface
07-15-2009, 12:19 PM
You guys need a bunch of players who have a good sense of balance (I think in dota, Icefrog has some competitive players helping him out with balance) to help balancing. I mean, look at this thread, night hound op? lol.

From what ive seen + know so far:

Imba:
Dark lady seems op but im not totally sure, perhaps with good players she is easier to control.


See, saying Dark Lady is OP makes as much sens as saying night hound is OP. You should be careful of laughing at the guy who called night hound OP, he might had bad experiences against it just like you prob did against dark lady... She's really not an issue at all lol.

Also, if they nerf Jugg's spin... Jugg won't be playable. His ulti SUCKS right now, he doesn't have wards to team play push no more... GG, 1 more useless hero :p. unless they boost the ulti to be equivalent to the dota version of it.

Bruktbilen
07-15-2009, 12:29 PM
Really, the major necessity is that there be some way of not letting stealth characters always choose their battles. Cut back on mobility, whatever.
It is called wards, buy some.

SeaBlown
07-15-2009, 01:39 PM
Sorry, I'm not trying to say that stealth heroes (specifically madman) *can't* be countered, I'm just saying that countering them requires a bit too much effort from the countering team to do, and a bit too little effort from the madman to avoid. Just my opinion, but it doesn't seem like i'm the only one.

I do want to try this blademail idea against madman though... sounds like a nice way to keep my tank chars from being picked apart...

xahxah
07-16-2009, 02:45 PM
What did he do about his low HP? That doesn't seem to be enough if a scout/madman/night hound jump you


That's why you have those two snares and teammates you know.

laserburn
07-17-2009, 08:15 AM
Sorry, I'm not trying to say that stealth heroes (specifically madman) *can't* be countered, I'm just saying that countering them requires a bit too much effort from the countering team to do, and a bit too little effort from the madman to avoid. Just my opinion, but it doesn't seem like i'm the only one.


You're absolutely right. I have two ideas on how to fix this:

- Wards of Revelation should be cheaper and stackable or with much larger range

or

- Stelth heroes should not know that they have been revealed to the enemy.

Either of those would mean the end of Madman's OP.

MaskHunter
07-17-2009, 08:25 AM
Yeah i agree with you with Accursed aka abbadon, i mean like ever game i play everyone owns with him. Even i ownd with him when i first played him. But i think the problem is his animation. His ult is so freaking hard to tell if its on or not.

Jake
07-17-2009, 08:39 AM
Yeah i agree with you with Accursed aka abbadon, i mean like ever game i play everyone owns with him. Even i ownd with him when i first played him. But i think the problem is his animation. His ult is so freaking hard to tell if its on or not.
People will used to it. There are still loads of ppl who try to kill abaddon with his ulti on in dota. Some skills need some time like rupture and Accurseds ulti.

xahxah
07-17-2009, 09:35 AM
You're absolutely right. I have two ideas on how to fix this:

- Wards of Revelation should be cheaper and stackable or with much larger range

or

- Stelth heroes should not know that they have been revealed to the enemy.

Either of those would mean the end of Madman's OP.


They don't most of the time actually.

krucifix
07-17-2009, 11:02 AM
Do you even know how it works? the more dmg you do on him when he has ult on he heals, stop hitting him n4p

Um, no it's not? The more damage Hellbringer deals, the more he gets healed.

zzz

VortexMagus
07-17-2009, 09:47 PM
Jereziah and Madman, in my opinion, need the most nerfing. Madman just has too much power potential late game, and is extremely dangerous early game as well. He's like a PA that doesn't suck early game. Jereziah is too much of a gamebreaker, more so than accursed/abbadon by far. Free bkb for teammates and perma area slow, along with guardian angel for pushing is just far better than extra healing potential a good abby brings into play

_Archangel_
07-18-2009, 07:47 AM
Mad man is demonstrably over powered. I've seen him used repeatedly to go 3 or 4v1 and he kills them all. His high damage mixed with high attack speed when paired with life stealing just makes him an absurd character.


Sure you can stun him but it's hard to stun him long enough EVERY SINGLE TIME to kill him entirely in that stun. After all, all he has to do once he gets out of the stun is just start eating someone. He'll probably heal himself faster then you can nail him in most cases. And then if it's really nasty he'll just go invisible for a few seconds when the focus is off him and then attack again.

Even a lot of the veteran dota players have agreed that this hero is over powered. I don't know if anyone credible is really disagreeing with that point.


I don't know. Maybe have his armor drop or have him take a percentage more damage. Something to make him conceivably defeatable in the late game.

Get Dust, keep your focus on him. Long disablers like Electrician and Pollywog screw him up badly.

laserburn
07-18-2009, 09:50 AM
They don't most of the time actually.

?
Every time I have been revealed I have seen myself stop being transparent. I was never ever attacked while I was transparent.

xahxah
07-18-2009, 09:53 AM
?
Every time I have been revealed I have seen myself stop being transparent. I was never ever attacked while I was transparent.



Hrm, that's never happened to me? D:

laserburn
07-18-2009, 09:56 AM
Get Dust, keep your focus on him. Long disablers like Electrician and Pollywog screw him up badly.

Generaly, Madman is too difficult to stop. All invisible heroes are a handfull, but Madman is the worst of all, plus he can rape very early on in the game.

There should be some sort of an item that we could stick on him to reveal him for 30 seconds. Him entering and exiting the combat as he pleases is very anoying to say the least.

Whylde
07-18-2009, 11:13 AM
SA isn't underpowered at all, hes an early game support, and late game carry. Juggs is stoppable by baiting bladestorm or even purging through it. Abbadon's ult is easy to counter also, which someone said. When he pops bubble, don't attack him. He doesn't gain HP.

Elman1
07-18-2009, 11:19 AM
The only thing that annoys me (And correct me if I'm wrong, it's just that somebody told that to me once) is that Stealth heroes can't be damaged by AoEs while stealthed.

I was fighting this Nighthound guy and I almost killed him but he stealthed, I used my ulti and it didn't finish him...

So maybe he was just messing with me and he made it in time somehow, I don't know xD Is it true?

ex0dus
07-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Um, no it's not? The more damage Hellbringer deals, the more he gets healed.

zzz
is this with life void? becuase its i think its any dammage dealt to peons that are under the affect of life void. (e.g. cast on group of 5 peons, that are getting hitup by your peons, and you pretty much full health in seconds).

Combine that with Life steal its pretty big healing numbers(either way).

Rasui
07-19-2009, 03:55 AM
Generaly, Madman is too difficult to stop. All invisible heroes are a handfull, but Madman is the worst of all, plus he can rape very early on in the game.

There should be some sort of an item that we could stick on him to reveal him for 30 seconds. Him entering and exiting the combat as he pleases is very anoying to say the least.

Funny you should say that.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t139/BloodyStag/Pestilencedetails.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t139/BloodyStag/PestilenceAbility4.jpg


Level 1- 5 armor reduction. (Lasts 30 seconds, 10 second cooldown. Reveals invisibility on target. 25 mana.)
Level 2- 10 armor reduction.
Level 3- 15 armor reduction.

FluffyM
07-19-2009, 09:03 AM
Generally I think the cooldowns on some abilities need to be a bit longer, the heros generally seem fine otherwise.

One of those is in the post right above this one, Swarm. Duration of 30 seconds and a 10 second cooldown? Awesome...
Also, the scouts crossbow ability is another good example. He can kill people without ever having to come close enough to get into any sort of danger. He can just xbow someone twice, killing them due to the low CD and he's off to his next target. Huge reward, 0 risk. Gay.

I could go on but I think you get the point.

SeaBlown
07-19-2009, 02:34 PM
ya, that "swarm" ability is obscenely annoying if you're playing scout. It's too bad not many people use pestilence on the beginner servers, because complaints about scout would probably be reduced a lot (although I still think the scout needs *some* balancing, regardless...) Are there any other chars that can mess with invisibility like that?

Throumbas
07-19-2009, 06:03 PM
is this with life void? becuase its i think its any dammage dealt to peons that are under the affect of life void. (e.g. cast on group of 5 peons, that are getting hitup by your peons, and you pretty much full health in seconds).

Combine that with Life steal its pretty big healing numbers(either way).

Yes, the problem is you need a lot of people hitting on the cursed targets, or you need to pop the ult. Either way if you dont kill the hellbringer he still wasted his ult to survive. If its just you and 1-2 peons the life steal isnt that overpowered.

xahxah
07-19-2009, 08:19 PM
SA isn't underpowered at all, hes an early game support, and late game carry. Juggs is stoppable by baiting bladestorm or even purging through it. Abbadon's ult is easy to counter also, which someone said. When he pops bubble, don't attack him. He doesn't gain HP.


SA is easily the best carry outside of Madman, and he delivers more to a teamfight than any of the other carries.

Whylde
07-23-2009, 01:23 AM
Funny you should say that.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t139/BloodyStag/Pestilencedetails.jpg

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t139/BloodyStag/PestilenceAbility4.jpg


Level 1- 5 armor reduction. (Lasts 30 seconds, 10 second cooldown. Reveals invisibility on target. 25 mana.)
Level 2- 10 armor reduction.
Level 3- 15 armor reduction.


does anyone even buy dust?

Whylde
07-23-2009, 01:24 AM
ya, that "swarm" ability is obscenely annoying if you're playing scout. It's too bad not many people use pestilence on the beginner servers, because complaints about scout would probably be reduced a lot (although I still think the scout needs *some* balancing, regardless...) Are there any other chars that can mess with invisibility like that?

scout is ok... nothing amazing. he brings less to a team fight then any other stealth hero. the biggest issue with scout is his wards are too good. thats about it.

Whylde
07-23-2009, 01:25 AM
SA is easily the best carry outside of Madman, and he delivers more to a teamfight than any of the other carries.

my point exactly lol.

Glorify1
07-23-2009, 03:34 AM
Sa is underpowered, especially in here where you can completely lock his invisibility and take it out of the equation.

Abaddon isn't worthless, but he's pretty underpowered due to the fact he's a hero that's hard to kill but does very little in fights.

Jezial, I honestly don't know who this is.


Mad man is demonstrably over powered. I've seen him used repeatedly to go 3 or 4v1 and he kills them all. His high damage mixed with high attack speed when paired with life stealing just makes him an absurd character.Madman with lifesteal is going to have low life, unless he sat there and farmed for 30 minutes, but then again ANY hero who farms unhindered for 30 minutes is going to wreck a team.


SA is easily the best carry outside of Madman, and he delivers more to a teamfight than any of the other carries.

There are two amazing carries in this game, Pestilence and Dark lady.

Pestilence can 2-3 hit enemies, and roll through an entire team like it's a joke with MINIMAL gear. He's the best chaser in the game, and is damn near impossible to gank. His stun is instant and has a huge AOE, and his ult just destroys enemies, increasing your team DPS and completely owning any ability for someone to JUKE.

Dark lady ults and you win.

camgi
08-07-2009, 02:07 AM
i totally agree with this thread. madmen has to be nerfed. he s an carry late game hero with "instant invisibility skill" WITH DMG!!! an instant AOE STUN with damage and several skills which makes him totally imba.

get rid of invisibilty or the aoe stun and change it into something weaker ability like armor buff or something

Kiiltomato
08-07-2009, 03:02 PM
lol.
jsut lol.
Read thw whole thread about people whining about "OP" heros
Madman is not even clsoe to OP his stealth can be countered Žby dust and his lifesteal isnt even OP/same as naix

dreamex
08-07-2009, 03:27 PM
Arachna's ult is pretty op.

Supreme
08-07-2009, 04:19 PM
Myea; but slowmotion-kills are the win :P

kingcomrade
08-07-2009, 05:01 PM
"in the hands of a skilled player" is not a get out of jail free card because you can say "all heroes rape in the hands of a skilled player." No, heroes can do well in the hands of a skilled player, but not all things are equal.

Madman is not even clsoe to OP his stealth can be countered
His max movespeed can't.

`Shifty
08-07-2009, 07:27 PM
Sa is underpowered, especially in here where you can completely lock his invisibility and take it out of the equation.



He's underpowered because you can counter one of his abilities, so you're saying we should make him like invulnerable forever instead oooooooooooor...?

Rentaromon
08-07-2009, 08:23 PM
The only thing that annoys me (And correct me if I'm wrong, it's just that somebody told that to me once) is that Stealth heroes can't be damaged by AoEs while stealthed.

I was fighting this Nighthound guy and I almost killed him but he stealthed, I used my ulti and it didn't finish him...

So maybe he was just messing with me and he made it in time somehow, I don't know xD Is it true?
i know torturers ulti and his 1st/2nd power can all hit invisible(killed one that way as he was chasing me) they are all AOE, his nuke use to hit them to but they changed that =(

Targuil
08-07-2009, 09:37 PM
His max movespeed can't.
That one got nerfed. Only 50% movement speed buff so slowing does matter.

frybrain
08-08-2009, 12:28 AM
Night Hound is hardly OP if you and your team is competent.

jab333
08-16-2009, 03:28 AM
WOW im surprised that no1 is complaining about magmus. I've played him many times and i always do good. When i pick him in some games ppl alrdy say that my team is gonna win.

Tasdingo1
08-16-2009, 04:26 PM
Arachna - since orbs stack and her web i feel applies longer than drow ranger
Jereziah - Admiral's splash+slow totally trumps omniknights slowaura
Defiler - Ulti can be focused on a hero is imba and movespeed still havenot been nerfed ( all these has beenbalanced in dota)
Magmus - Stun longer than ulti so no hope to disrupt ulti. this+mid game= 1kill/ulti

08-16-2009, 05:34 PM
Keeper of the forest >_<

syyhkyrotta
08-16-2009, 05:42 PM
Night Hound isn't OP.

Edit: What ever it is, it's the good skill combinations. Totally dominating with right build order.

robbierawr
08-16-2009, 07:02 PM
Defiler is ridiculous, can't believe more people haven't mentioned her in this thread. Playing non em, her nukes, silence, passive run speed and ult (especially the cd) is a little too much.

Thunderbringer is extremely strong, but I wouldn't say hes op.

Madman while strong, is just like any other carry, buy some dust, gank so he doesn't farm. A non-farmed Madman brings nothing to a team.

Charade
08-16-2009, 07:23 PM
i disagree with everything the OP said.

_Wolf_
08-16-2009, 09:32 PM
Accursed is fine, his suppose to be a supportive Tank.

Madman
thunderbringer
Pyro
Slightly on nighthound
Scout

These are the top 5 most played and the most needed to be nerfed. They are played the most because they are to "easy" to play as which makes them overpowered. You dont see Shaman or Wildsoul getting picked as much as these top 5, though no one likes wildsoul anyways or uses him. so i think he needs to be replaced.

DragonPie
08-16-2009, 11:51 PM
sa is overpowerd in dota. its just only noobs pick him. i think night hound is how sa should be

madman is definitely overpowerd. not unstoppable just really really tough
swiftblade isnt really overpowered. just a lot of times i see him he has good support with him
in my opinion i think arachna is a bit overpowered because of the fact she slows like no other and is ranged on top of that

Tasdingo1
08-17-2009, 02:40 AM
Accursed is fine, his suppose to be a supportive Tank.

Madman
thunderbringer
Pyro
Slightly on nighthound
Scout

These are the top 5 most played and the most needed to be nerfed. They are played the most because they are to "easy" to play as which makes them overpowered. You dont see Shaman or Wildsoul getting picked as much as these top 5, though no one likes wildsoul anyways or uses him. so i think he needs to be replaced.

Wow its amazing that someone who has a post count over a 100 spouts out all this nonsense. ALL the heroes you mentioned are BALANCED. Just because people use them all does NOT mean they are overpowered.

Madman needs to farm ALOT. He is just like troll warlord/weaver in Dota but i say he is even worse cause he is mellee which means he will be stinking it up in the laning phase. How are you gonna own without items?
Play with newb pubbies zzzz....

Thunderbringer sure is strong early game which makes him very dangerous competitive but in lategame other than his ulti for scouting purposes he is pretty useless. Thunderbringer does NOT have an escape mekanism. Thunderbringer does NOT have any defensive skill. To top it all off, Thunderbringer movespeeed is slow (295). Thunderbringer=earlygame glass canon.

Im too lazy to explain for the others you mentioned but if you play more you would know how to counter these heroes.;)

Lyte
08-17-2009, 03:43 AM
Night Hound is considered underpowered.

The other heroes you have mentioned are mid-tier give or take 1 tier to the high level playerbase.

Hikaratu
08-17-2009, 06:45 AM
Alot of people overestimate madman and an equal number seem to underestimate him. He in my opinion is on the powerful side, maybe not quite into overpowered territory. To the people talking about how he cant get in exp or last hit range in the laning phase ??? stalk for last hitting is amazingly useful with good judgement. Ganking him is difficult if his team has proper map control. Also, with either glacius on the team or a quickly farmed arcane ring(always forget what HoN calls it) he is a real terror in lanes and ganks from a very early point in the game with his moderate aoe damage and great aoe disabling capability. On top of that he scales very well with his farm, doing amazing dps with his crit and ult making him a fantastic late game hard carry with a passably good early-mid game. I have a bit of trouble rating heroes sometimes but I'd place him in a grouping with the other most powerful heroes in HoN. As for the rest of the speculation I see enough valid reasoning against the obviously not op heroes and for the obviously op ones so I'll let the rest of the thread speak on those.

edit:in hindsight I realise I only argued for reasons he might be op, so I guess my opinion is closer to that rather than him being fine as is but strong.

Aegd
08-17-2009, 06:53 AM
A simple solution to Madman would be getting him slightly higher STR gain and making his critical strike skill worse.

This would make him be able to take a bit more beating but remove some of his damage dealing potential.

Another solution could be increasing the cooldown on his windwalk ability and making him be able to rely less on it for an escape mechanism.

That said. I don't think he's really that badly overpowered. He just needs some slight fixes.

Damage
08-17-2009, 08:52 AM
I would say moon queen needs a bit of a tone down too.

No. Moon Queen is easy to counter. She cannot control her ulti.


Swift Blade is the only one I have problems with. I don't know what I can use to beat it... Everyone else I can counter..

Swiftblade is fine mid-late. Tone down blade spin level 1 and 2 maybe... way to easy to get first blood the way it is


I run for the hills when I see a Zephyr coming at me.

HWOOP

LOL

Accursed is fine, his suppose to be a supportive Tank.

Madman
thunderbringer
Pyro
Slightly on nighthound
Scout

These are the top 5 most played and the most needed to be nerfed. They are played the most because they are to "easy" to play as which makes them overpowered. You dont see Shaman or Wildsoul getting picked as much as these top 5, though no one likes wildsoul anyways or uses him. so i think he needs to be replaced.

3 of these are invis heroes... which probably means they're only OP b/c nobody buys dust/sentries.

Madman - invis should be 2/2.75/3.25/4 seconds... too long early game.
TB - 350 range/no str agi gain = only burst damage. He's fine
Pyro - Doesn't scale through late game.
Nighthound - OP for Pubs/UP for league
Scout - Same as Nightnound

Nole
08-18-2009, 08:10 PM
Jereziah
Madman
Thunderbringer
Arachna

endovelico
08-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Arachna

DragonPie
08-20-2009, 04:18 PM
playing more and more games ive seen madman is just as op as any other farmed agi carry. but i still think arachna needs some major nerfing