Soulstealer

[Glorify1]

FAQ is added, any questions asked will be placed and answered in it as long as they aren't obscure ones. I've added a video of myself playing Soulstealer due to interest in it, hopefully it'll help you guys understand how I personally move and click which may or may not help you.
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6176/1f1a8bc8483853301093513.jpg
Introduction
I was unhappy with the guide written currently in the premium guides for the hero soulstealer, it states it's meant for higher levels of play but it doesn't touch much on a lot of the advanced aspects you should know and expect when playing with the hero. Sure, obviously you'd expect players playing in high levels of play to know these things, but from what I've run into in even very high levels of HoN play is astounding to say the least. Some things I'll be touching on are as follows:
-Basic lane control
-Optimal warding positions
-Basic skill usage
-Advanced bottle techniques

This is not a right click hero, he requires good positioning and map awareness to effectively use your skills and survive in competitive play. He has amazing potential for late game damage and early game lane control, but suffers low hitpoints and no escape mechanism. On top of that, if ganked, you're basically inviting the enemies to push down towers or raxes due to an inability to defend after losing souls.

Skills
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7382/demonhand2.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/i/demonhand2.jpg/)

Demon hand is the bread and butter of this hero through-out most of the game. It allows him to harass, it allows him to farm, and it's his main source of damage all they way through up until late game. Three well-timed and placed strikes in succession can easily lead to the opposing player to give up first blood, even when the skill is only level two.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/3046/soulsteal.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/i/soulsteal.jpg/)


Soulsteal is the skill that pumps his early game damage through the roof, allowing him to outfarm pretty much any opposing solo middle hero, with the additional of before-mentioned nukes. There are a few downsides to this skill, however, it just simply wouldn't be balanced to give a hero a free relic(+60 damage) after he kills a mere thirty creeps. Because of this skill, his base damage is one of the lowest in the game, comparable to CM's base damage. Also, it's the skill that fuels his ult, which is where another good portion of his damage comes from. When you die, or are ganked, it's hard to defend a push because he requires souls to use his ult properly.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3416/dreadt.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/dreadt.jpg/)

Dread is Soulstealer's basic steroid spell, giving him yet another skill that can turn the tide of a team battle. Essentially, it just increases the team's physical DPS, but it comes in many other uses throughout the game. It cuts through Rosh's defenses like a hot knife through butter, allowing you to quickly kill him should the opportunity arise. It also, just by standing in a lane, allows your creeps to overwhelm the opposing creeps. For this very reason alone, the skill should not under any circumstances be taken early. It's simply not worth it, it doesn't add anything other than a slight increase in DPS(over stats anyways), and makes it harder to hold a lane in equilibrium.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/538/soulburst.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/soulburst.jpg/)


Soulburst is by far one of the most entertaining skills in the game. It is one of the most influencing and devastating skills in the game during a team fight, if landed properly, is capable of completely wiping an enemy team. While it is most effectively used against opponents who are currently stunned or disabled by an aoe hero like Axe or Enigma, it can be used in conjunction with just about any disable or even in it's vanilla form by itself. You after all, should have a blink dagger, which can be used to surprise opponents with a quick blink+ult.

Skill build
1. Soulsteal/Demon Hand
2. Soulsteal/Demon Hand
3. Soulsteal/Demon Hand
4. Soulsteal/Demon Hand
5. Demon Hand
6. Soulsteal
7. Demon Hand
8. Soulsteal
9. Soulburst
10. Stats
11. Soulburst
12-15. Stats
16. Soulburst
17-20. Dread
21-25. Stats

Now, this may seem a little confusing, but I'll do my best to explain myself and how I decided to order this skill build. Soulsteal is almost always the first choice, but contrary to popular belief it's not ALWAYS the first skill you will get. In high levels of play, most of the action starts before the creeps even spawn, when teams probe each other's jungles in an attempt to ward the rune, pulls, and gain control of the first rune(which spawns when the clock stops ticking down and starts ticking up). Assuming the opportunity arises, you can more often than not skill Demon Hand over soulsteal to add that extra 225 magic damage during a gank at the rune. Now, I'm sure you've all noticed that the first four skills are pretty much up for grabs in terms of how you place them. Obviously, if you get Demon Hand first, you're want soulsteal second, so you can start collecting souls. Generally, if I already have 8 souls by the time I'm 3 I'll allocate another point into Soulsteal so I can additively increase my advantage over my opponent by increasing my damage. However you place these first four skills, you no longer gain this freedom once you hit level five, because you'll always want to place your skills into Demon Hand. It's your offense and your defense, and provides far more utility than the extra ~15 damage from Soulsteal.

Item builds
Basic starting items
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4267/startingitems.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/i/startingitems.jpg/) http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/startingitems.jpg/1/w170.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img242/startingitems.jpg/1/)
So you're probably thinking, bottle first is good? Well I'm here to inform you that bottle first is never viable in high levels of play. You have the worst base damage of pretty much ANY solo mid, so you're already fighting an uphill battle. Sure, you can't control runes as well without a bottle, but I never said anything about not getting a bottle. Generally my first 600 gold is allocated to buying a bottle. This is my end all be all of starting items, it provides the highest base damage, moderate hitpoint/mana increase, and enough for me to always survive until I can farm 600 for my bottle.
End game items
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7198/endgameitems.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/i/endgameitems.jpg/) http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/endgameitems.jpg/1/w171.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img529/endgameitems.jpg/1/)
As you can obviously see, I've posted two different builds for end game items. They are very similar, in fact they're almost the same things, one however offers more hitpoints while the other offers more damage and attack speed. This is core items, anything else is a luxury item, this is what you NEED to farm to be able to end a game. A lot of the times you'll find that you require more items, or that you have just an excess amount of gold in which you need to dump money into. What you get all depends on what you need, but generally there are three items I will get to finish off my inventory.
"Tiered-out" items
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1384/tieredout.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/tieredout.jpg/)
Tiered-out generally describes when you've completely exhausted every item you could possibly want. Gold is no longer allocated to buying items, but to being saved for buy backs in the case of you dying and the opposing team pushing. While these instances are few and far between, if you find yourself with core items and are unsure as to what to buy, this is what I buy on him. Deso is my next item, as BKB provides adequate protection against any spells or disables that might be directed at me. I'd rather spend that 5-10 seconds melting someone's face off than absorbing damage. However, after this item, I need to assess the threat that is currently killing me. Am I being nuked down by spells and aoe? Am I being hit by a ton of physical damage? Generally, if you're being out-carried by physical damage wingbow is the way to go, as it provides protection in the area of evasion and adds a TON of damage. Where as, if you're still unable to survive aoe with BKB, a heart is a solid option. Eventually if gold permits I buy everything shown here.

Starting the game
Choosing a lane
When deciding which lane to choose, you shouldn't under any circumstances pick anything other than solo mid. This hero doesn't lane well with other people, he's fragile and thus requires the safety of the middle lane to not get wrecked. He's a powerful hero, but another con of the hero is his inability to use a side lane effectively. You have to build differently, since you cannot use a bottle effectively, and thus delay key items. Also, pushing these lanes are FAR more deadly than pushing the middle lane, as there are far too many areas to get ganked from. More importantly, these areas aren't going to be warded so you have no protection. Dying early on is a *****, you've farmed souls, but now they've effectively been cut in half and you once again have to work your way up. To finalize why you should never be in any lane other than middle, is dual lanes are VERY dangerous in comparison to a solo lane. Solo lanes generally score kills off the mistakes of their opponents, where as dual lanes can get kills just by chain stunning or disabling you.

Scouting the first rune
This is one of the most important things you do early on, and it should be done by every team regardless of hero makeup. If you have an offensive team with a lot of disables, you can afford to play more aggressively at the runes. Still, if your team can't score first blood, the least you can do is see which rune actually spawns to prevent a first blood situation. I'll go into a little more detail as to what you should skill first. You skill nothing, you save it, if you see an opportunity where Demon Hand could possibly score a first blood you can quickly click on it and use the skills. However, if you don't, simply skill Soulsteal and walk into the lane and begin your game as you normally would.

Starting to lane
At level two, if you're having trouble scoring last hits because your base damage is so low, do not despair. You have a clarity, and you have mana and a skill that should basically outdamage any opposing player's auto-attack. This is most effectively used when combining multiple purposes(for example, harassing an opponent too close to a creep and last hitting the creep at the same time), but can be used to exclusively last hit as well. Denying is very important, you shouldn't be harassing your opponent, rather you should be playing off of his mistakes. Probing your opponent for how they function in a lane is your main goal here. Does he stand up by the creeps and try to keep you out of last hit range? Does he play very far back and only come into range to deny and last hit? If you run towards him does he run back, or 1 for 1 you in harassing hits? These are important questions to quickly answer, but as a basic rule, always farm before going for kills. First blood aside, you can make the gold from a kill simply by killing ~1 creep wave, and creeps give you souls which help you lane. If someone walks up to your creeps and moves to harass you, obviously you should harass them back, as they're taking both your damage and creep damage where as you should only be taking their damage.

Most effective positioning when laning?
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9213/laning.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/i/laning.jpg/)
There are two basic positions where laning is the most effective, and one or the other will be true depending on who you're laning against. If your opponent can simply walk up to the top of the hill and control the lane, something that might happen against an arachna or zeus, you'll want to have the creeps as they are positioned in the picture. This leaves you out of sight, so unless they've warded, it's impossible for them to time their last hits properly unless they're atop the hill. If they're on top of the hill, it leaves them way out of position in you can simply wreck them with autos and Demon Hands. However, if you're in a position where the opponent is unable to stand atop the hill, the best possible position is displayed by the colored lines. Red is your creeps, and blue is the opposing creeps. This gives both denying and last hitting a miss chance(due to higher ground) on the opponent while offering you neither of the penalties. This pseudo-evasion can easily make laning against someone who can out lasthit you but cannot stand up to you much easier. You can manipulate the lane by right clicking an enemy, the creeps will agro to you and eventually drop off and attack your creeps, significantly closer to your side of the field.

Controlling the runes and using your crow effectively.
Your crow is a very important tool, once you farm a bottle, it acts as a tool to refill your bottle without the dependence of running back to base or finding a rune. You obviously do not want to do this when the 2 minute marks are arriving, as crows are used extremely aggressively and offensively when it comes to runes. As previously stated, runes pretty much run the early game in terms of how well a middle lane solo can do, and can easily be used to gank or score first-blood on opponents. So, controlling the rune, how does one do it? It all depends on what your team currently has up in terms of wards, and what your opponent does when faced with a rune spawn. Let's get the basics out of the way, I'm going to assume everyone knows what the runes do. Runes spawn every two minutes, starting when they game timer first starts counting up(at 0:00). So obviously watching the clock is very important, as runes are very important. There are a lot of ways to get a rune, but the most important and relevant way of getting and denying runes are with a crow. Becoming accustomed to how the crow works is key to becoming a good player, so I suggest anyone who doesn't know how it works or how to use it to specifically take as much information from this section of the guide as possible. I'm going to list basically all of the ways to get runes, and then tell you how to counter what your opponent is doing:

Waiting for the rune to spawn and then running down to which side it's at, or randomly guessing which side in the case of not having wards.
This is by far the easiest one to counter. You have a crow, it moves at max movespeed, simply run it down the lane he's choosing(if it's the correct one) and steal it. If he chose poorly, then run yourself(if you have a bottle) or the crow(if you don't) down to the correct lane and deny him the rune.

Preemptively moving down near the rune before the two minute mark, so that you can grab it as it spawns.
The counter to this is very simple, and you can do it in multiple ways. Generally if I have a bottle, I'll send my crow over to the area my opponent went to. Since my crow can move at max movespeed and become invulnerable, it has no danger of getting killed and can ninja an opponent's rune. Essentially it becomes a click battle. I can also now grab the rune bot with my hero, and deny it this way, strengthening myself and weakening the opposing solo. I can use it in the lane, I can use it to gank, I can save it in my bottle just to use it later if the need arises. However, if I do not have a bottle(think arachna), I can simply call for someone to go bot and grab the rune(as it'll benefit them more) or run my crow down to grab it. The crow moves at max movespeed with burst on, and no hero can outrun it.

Preemptively running to a rune location, and using THEIR crow to go to the other location.
This can be tough to counter, it becomes a battle of whoever grabs it first. I generally tend to counter their hero position with my crow, and farm the lane. If it happens to spawn by their hero, I can try and ninja it from them. However, if it spawns down there I can run my crow down to force the rune to gain no effect(buffing a crow is hardly a positive effect). The way this counters this strategy is while their hero is off in rando-land waiting for a rune, you're gaining experience and farming.

Moving to a rune location and asking for a teammate to move to the other.
This almost always assures the opposing team a rune, however you can do multiple things to attempt to stop them. You can call for a gank if it happens more than once, you can use your crow to guess a side and try to ninja, or you can even just stay in your lane and farm. Remember, you're gaining experience and gold while they're going to grab a rune. Runes aren't all to dangerous if you KNOW who has them, and what rune it is.

Early game item progression and goals
Item progression
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8647/earlygameitemsjp.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/earlygameitemsjp.jpg/)
Your first item is obviously bottle, it provides your staple mana and health regen, as well as burst healing when juking or running from opponents. In addition to the flask you bought at the start, assuming you didn't use it, it can easily turn the tides of a battle. An opponent tower diving early on at the hopes of a kill, can easily find you've regenerated a good 300 health in the matter of 2-3 seconds. The goal by the end of early game is to have Boots, Blink, 2x Bracers or Bands(depending on if you need hitpoints or damage), and bottle. In between these items, you should basically always carry TPs. They're one of the most important items to have, and you should never be without one once the game gets going, until you farm your travels of course. TPing to a tower or creep to ward off a gank can easily turn two deaths of your allies into a triple kill for your team. It also creates a sort of mind**** that'll ward off ganking near towers or even near creep waves depending on how many travels your team has.

When to gank?
Well, ganking is important for the solo lane to do, especially if one of your lanes really needs a gank. However, as previously stated in the guide at some point, ganking provides little benefit other than meager gold/exp and denying opponents gold/exp. Ganking should not be avoided, just know a failed gank can easily tip the tides of a middle solo duel in your opponent's favor. So the question comes up, when should I gank? It's a viable and good question to ask, and from experience I feel the best times to gank are when your opponent is back healing or ganking. They're gaining no farm or experience while out of the lane, and you can afford to leave it open as no one is in the lane. Also, they're far less likely to call mia if they themselves are ganking. I tend to avoid ganking, unless a lane REALLY needs a gank, and my opponent has left the lane. I pick up on ganks and such once I farm my early game goals, or more importantly a blink dagger. One of the best times to gank is when you get a rune, or when you first hit level 9 with a blink dagger. Your ult is devastating, having an ally throw a stun(for example, hammerstorm), blinking to the area you presume he'll be stunned at when the stun catches up with him and instantly starting to cast your ult can leave the opponent pretty much instantly dead. If it doesn't, you have 3x 300 damage nukes which move perfectly in order to damage them if they are running away. It's as easy as right clicking them and hitting the hotkeys in order.

Defending pushes and counter ganks
If you find them trying to push down towers, you're one of the best heroes capable of stopping a push in it's tracks. With the ability to two hit a creep wave for 150 mana, you can easily stop a push, however you are a very fragile hero and have to be careful to not get stunned or snared in the process. Generally a tower dive is pretty suicidal early on, especially with competent opponents. This links into counter ganks, one might ask what a counter gank is? It's pretty self explanatory, when you have vision of an opposing gank you move as a team to gank the gankers. Another example is when opposing players tower-dive seemingly one opponent, you have two or three allies TP in as they're past the point of no return, and then mass disables and damage. This is a very important tool in turning the tides of early game gank strats, which only requires teammates to have good positioning(as to not get caught in an area where no one can TP to) and to carry TPs. Even if you have very little mana, just TPing to the fight can prove to sway the enemy into moving away. They can't tell your mana until you show up, and as such, they won't be able to know who is actually TPing to join the fight.

Team leadership and communication
Anyone who has played with me in a higher level game will know that I tend to boss people around a bit. Buy wards, upgrade the chicken, TP to top, etc. This is key for a carry player to learn to do. Your team cannot support you if they don't know what they need to do. Tell your team to buy your wards, where to place them, every bit of information you can possibly give out will be helpful. Tell your allies wards are about to expire, call for ganks, lead the team. One of the best ways to get things done is to simply tell an unknowing player what to do, regardless of how they react or how you say it, it might just dawn upon them that it is a good idea.

Advantages of Blink vs Lothars
First I'd like to point out I hate Lothars, and the reason I'm so biased against it is it's a bad item. Now, with that being said, this comparison may seem biased and honestly I don't care. Blink dagger provides a far better escape mechanism, as it disjoints projectiles and causes them to miss. Also, in HoN, you do not have to explore(in DotA, you had to actually go somewhere before you could click targetable skills there) areas to actually blink to them. This allows you to blink beyond the outer border trees of the map to be pretty much safe from everything except other blinks(and even then, they don't know exactly where you are) to TP away. Blink provides instant results, and isn't countered by 200 gold. There are very few counters to blink, a the few damaging global skills like Zeus's ult are the only ones. In terms of mechanics, it's a far better choice as it provides instant results and perfect precise positioning to lane the perfect ult or Demon hands. Lothars is more expensive, but builds in easier pieces, though all of the pieces provide very little to aid early on. Blink adds no stats, but as stated, it's effect is far superior and as a whole it's a lot cheaper. I would never recommend going lothars except in a low level pub, in either case, blink would be more effective anyways.

Mid game item direction and goals
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1066/midgamegoal.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/midgamegoal.jpg/)
The goal here is to rice your travels as soon as possible, which leaves farming your BKB relatively easy. I personally buy the 1k strength item first, as it fills the void(previously taken by TPs) and gets my hitpoints up to about 1.3-1.4k. This is generally enough to survive the aoe at this stage in the game, and even enough to allow for being focused. Obviously you won't be able to withstand getting focused for long, hopefully you wipe them before you die. Once you get a BKB, it's push push push. Gank and push, or just straight up push. Abuse that BKB prevents just about every magic skill in the game, and ALL magical damage. Use it as you're blinking in, it's very important to not get interupted by anything, even a ministun. Your perfect ult could be ****ed by something as simple as a zeus's nuke if you don't BKB. It's extremely easy to fast nuke down side lanes at this stage of the game, especially when towers are down. The first sign of trouble blink off of the map and start to TP back to base.

Team pushes, neutrals, ganking
At this stage in the game, assuming you've farmed your core items, you're basically ricing as much as possible until you effectively gank an opponent or have the team synergy that you can straight up push. Most of the times you'll have a hero that can stay up in the front, baiting for a hero like Axe or Tempest to blink in and hold them for you to blink and ult. In the odd happenstance you don't have an aoe disable, just about any disable will do. Have your team start to push, the second you see a target you want dead disable blink ult. Your goal is to quickly take the fight into a 4v5, and obviously to deal as much damage as possible to the opposing team. It's important that you try to focus on the outlying towers before moving on to the base towers and raxes. These provide a large amount of gold, and pushes are best performed when multiple lanes are going in. You can cause secondary damage from your creeps on enemy buildings, making a subsequent or a backdoor/legit switch to the lane being hit in the chance of a wipe much easier. This doesn't mean if the opportunity arises to not push a base rax down. Lots of players can't seem to know when they can and can't finish a game, and really all it takes is awareness of their spawn timers and buybacks. Another fatal flaw players make is getting greedy, a 4-0 wipe on the enemy team can easily be thwarted by getting greedy at base towers and losing half of your team, or worse your entire team. It can open up counter pushes, and makes you lose any advantage you just took from the opposing team. Lots of heroes make pushing extremely hard, a good example from recent memory was a 25-2 game that quickly turned into a 28-15 game because we were too cocky. Remember, regardless of how bad or how under-farmed the opposing team positioning is the key to the game. Good positioning assures wins, you don't have to force a team fight if they have the advantage. Most of all, your initiator(be it you, or another hero) needs to be on his toes. The second that opportunity comes he needs to go in. Most good players won't remain in bad positions for long, and by the time you've told your team the opportunity generally has passed. Go in, play confident and aggressive, and hope your team was paying attention. Neutrals can be a very effective, and safe(depending on your wards) way of getting your souls back from a death. Obviously if they're pushing, you shouldn't leave to go neutral, but try and get as many creep kills and denies as possible before the push comes in. The more souls the more damage you deal, and without souls you're not nearly as strong as you're supposed to be. Soulstealer can neutral faster than about any other hero in the game once he hits 7, he can also pull two to three camps at once due to his long range aoe nuke. You should use the neutrals to your advantage in every game. Finally, ganking is one of the most important tools in the game at this stage. Most of the time you'll find yourself unable to push a base, regardless of level or gear advantage. Picking an opponent and then pushing is a surefire way to quickly down a rax before they recover, especially if it's an important hero in their lineup. A good method of preparing for a push is warding up the surrounding area around their jungle and where you plan to push(even up on their base, so you know positions near the tower). This allows you to troll each lane, pushing until one of them gets out of position and you can gank, opening their team up for a push you'll hopefully win 4v5.

End game
Item progression and farming
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1384/tieredout.jpg
Unlike previous item progression areas, this one you do NOT have to follow to the letter. Soulstealer isn't a very strong right-click and win type of hero, and at this stage of the game farming actually becomes harder, you're no longer able to two raze opposing melee creeps. While you can tri-raze them, it's really a hard feat to do because your own creeps hit them once and they die. There are several decisions I make when deciding on what I need to finish the game, and this is all dependent on how well the opposing team is allowing me to farm. If they're on the defense, unable to do much because they're constantly taking care of their lanes, you have free roam to move about and farm effectively. It's easier to plan ahead on what you'd like to buy in this situation, where as in another situation where they are trolling around for ganks you have to be VERY careful. If they pick you at this stage in the game, you've effectively lost the match for your team. Even with buyback gold, you won't have souls to fight. While your goal should be to obviously farm it up, you should concede creeps at this stage in the game to other heroes that needs important items(again, you have core items, other heroes may not). A tempest may need to finish his BKB to land a better ult, or other support heroes are only a few hundred gold off of their guinsoos. Anyways, back to which items you should choose, it's all variable as to what you're actually dying to or unable to accomplish. If your opponents are all sitting around ~10 armor, a deso is going to provide the most team damage(especially when in conjunction with pseudo-carry like madman) since as you all should know reducing armor to zero is the most effective way of doing so. Reducing it further into the negatives is when you start to run into diminishing returns for negating armor. If you find yourself not taking much damage in fights, and not being focused, damage is the way to go. If I'm being out carried by an opposing carry, Butterfly is a very good item. It grants evasion which makes opposing carries' lives miserable. And finally, if you're dying to spells even with the BKB a heart is the way to go. If the opposing carry has a buttefly, it's generally my rule of thumb to buy one next, as it cancels out his evasion in a sense.

[Glorify1]

Advanced Tips
Optimal ward placement
So, by now you're probably wondering why I've added a mini guide to warding in my Soulstealer guide, so I'll give a quick explanation. Wards are the difference between surviving your lane, and losing your lane. It's as simple as that. I'm not going to go into great detail as to how to ward, and I can tell you that you yourself should never ever buy the wards, so here are two simple areas where the wards should be placed.
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/4792/optimalward1.jpg (http://img2.imageshack.us/i/optimalward1.jpg/)
This first ward sees the top rune, it also cuts into the scourge middle lane and provides you vision of what they are doing. This helps immensely with timing last hits, and seeing incoming ganks or aggresive play by an opposing solo. Controlling the runes is the most important thing to do while holding mid, they allow the person who grabbed it to gank, and provide them with bottle charges(assuming they have a bottle), which generally leads to you taking more damage. Finally, there are about a dozen spots to place the wards for rune, why is this location the best? Well, assuming you are indeed on sentinel side, it is the only place where you can use a single ward to see both a rune location and up the middle lane's hill.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3923/optimalward2.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/optimalward2.jpg/)
This area stops opposing pulls, which does basically two things for them. It denies experience to the opposing team by damaging and killing the pulled creeps, and it gives more experience and gold to the pulling team. It allows one opposing hero to solo the lane, generally hiding behind the tower and gaining experience while the other last hits and gains experience for the neutrals killed. So why this specific position? It provides vision to the left and right of the neutral camp, and sees up into the lane. Ever wondered if that 20 hp hero ran down the lane or hid up in the forest? Well never question this again, if you keep this position warded during the laning phase it'll aid in stopping their increase in gold/exp, and in ganking if you should choose to help top out.

Hotkeys and control groups
It's very important to hotkey your inventory to what is comfortable to you, and to have more than just one or two hotkeys. Especially for a hero like this one, you'll be using a good three to four different activateable items so it's very important to have them on hand. I personally use 3456, leaving 1(my own hero) and 2(crow) for for control groups. I also highly suggest binding your in game chat to a side mouse button if you have one, this will keep your left hand free when communicating with teammates. For soulstealer, I rebound the additional spell hotkeys to ZXC, which was DotA's initial hotkeys for his Demon Hand, but whatever is comfortable for you is what you should do. Finally, 2 is a very important control group, generally designated as my crow. If you've read the guide at all, a lot of my early game is 100% dependent on my crow, and as such I need to have as much control over it as possible. I always recommend controlling a crow with a hotkey, rather than using the default ` to cycle through units or FINDING it and clicking on it. It makes buying in base much easier, a simple 2brf buys a TP scroll. This leads to another advanced technique that really improves your play by quite a bit. Remembering and utilizing the hotkeys makes buying items MUCH quicker, allowing you to remain in base for FAR less time. Say you're about to die, just got enough to buy a full BKB, it's quite easy to hit the hotkeys and buy it once you've memorized it where as before these hotkeys you'd of been fumbling around trying to buy. The difference between running into a side shop, hitting D, 4, clicking in base and actually clicking all of the things is astounding.

Frequently Asked Questions

Why do you take ult at 9? Is it because you usually have blink by then or because you feel you should be farming instead of ganking? I think this should be mentioned when you describe your skill build.
Ult is generally not a skill that is possible to be used pre 9, unless you aren't levelling Demon Hand. The problem with not leveling Demon Hand is Demon Hand outdamages your level 1 ult in almost all circumstances.



Why didn't you include steamboots or assassin's shroud as an option in your item builds?
I included a short paragraph on why blink is superior. Someone mentioned that while there are counters to invisibility, you shouldn't be initiating anyways. Yes and no one this, you actually should be initiating with your initiator. For example, if you have a tempest on your team, you need to blink and ult when he goes in. However, with lothars(shroud) it becomes tricky because you have to preemptively go invisible and get near the enemies. This causes tempest's ult to be forced, and if he doesn't go you're left high and dry. On top of it, if they have wards or a gem you're ****ed. The only other option is to say back and wait for tempest, in which case you're generally going to have a substandard ult. The damage here is pretty minimal, you're not so much an auto attack carry until far later in the game, most of your carrying comes from your skills. Don't get me wrong, you do hit pretty hard, but until you get past the core build you don't hit very fast.


Steamboots were not provided in the build because you should never buy it in a high level game. If you're getting ganked to the point that you're unable to farm BoT, the game is pretty much over. BoT is your defense against ganks, which is why people sometimes farm travels first over dagger, but in my opinion a dagger is far more effective at staving off a gank that travels. If I do get any replays up, I'll try and show you what I'm talking about, but until then quick reflexes with a blink is far better early on. Steamboots just doesn't cut it, Soulstealer can solo push any tower due to his aura and tri-nuke, and the mobility of travels after a team fight goes you way can easy knock down opposing towers and raxes before they can get up to spawn.

Related videos
Game 1
1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EYzahGyygE)
2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixtFSw634Kw)
3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDL667tyJ7Q)
4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn6LNKK4IWE)
5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLh3eC8c4ts)

[Chamie]

I always use the exact same item build as in this guide actually ;O, works really well.
Soulstealer turns a bit slower in HoN than in dota making his razes a bit harder to hit but his ulti goes off faster on the other hand since he doesnt swing around his hands before he starts charging the actuall ulti like in dota.
Therefore I'd like to say that for team battles soulstealer in HoN is actually more usefull than sf in dota.

[Glorify1]

Eh, the biggest problem with aiming his razes is getting around creeps and ****. It's impossible if a creep or building is near the little area you want to turn.

[Marvel2]

This guide should definatelly be placed in Premium Guides. Very well written, looking forward to see more from you.

[class]

This is actually a good guide, unlike the other disgustingly bad guide in premium.

add in blind spots to ulti behind trees













is that QC from tich/wow?

[ElementUser]

Crow/Winged Courier cannot use Bottle anymore. What a shame (NOT)

Well they can still provide vision for runes & refill Bottle at fountain for you lol. I assume they can still grab the runes to deny them from the enemy though (like you said)

[KikiJiki]

Excellent Guide so far Glorify, keep up the great work :>

[ArctIX]

thx for such good work..;)

[kthxkevin]

Very good guide, my only suggestions are

-Include Steamboots as an option if you're getting ganked a lot or having trouble farming Post Haste. Personally, I like Post Haste a lot more because it takes advantage of his great ricing but Steamboots provide some nice +hp that he needs as well.

-Why do you take ult at 9? Is it because you usually have blink by then or because you feel you should be farming instead of ganking? I think this should be mentioned when you describe your skill build.

-Typically in high lvl dota games most players take Dread around 12-15 from what I notice, there's nothing wrong with stats but maybe adding Dread would be a viable alternative.

Anyways this is a really good guide, I personally play Soulstealer a lot and fully agree with everything said, this should be premium.

[Testknight]

This is really good so far, yeah, keep up the nice work.

[Kveita]

Great guide!

Keep it up! :D

[_PINK]

Godly guide.

[PoopyDesires]

Can't believe you didn't include Assasin's Shroud as an alternative to Portal Key as I find it far superior. I mean not even including Steamboots for their massive DPS boost I found pretty ridiculous.

I prefer my own Soulstealer build much more than this one.

[kthxkevin]

Can't believe you didn't include Assasin's Shroud as an alternative to Portal Key as I find it far superior. I mean not even including Steamboots for their massive DPS boost I found pretty ridiculous.

I prefer my own Soulstealer build much more than this one.


Advantages of Blink vs Lothars
First I'd like to point out I hate Lothars, and the reason I'm so biased against it is it's a bad item. Now, with that being said, this comparison may seem biased and honestly I don't care. Blink dagger provides a far better escape mechanism, as it disjoints projectiles and causes them to miss. Also, in HoN, you do not have to explore(in DotA, you had to actually go somewhere before you could click targetable skills there) areas to actually blink to them. This allows you to blink beyond the outer border trees of the map to be pretty much safe from everything except other blinks(and even then, they don't know exactly where you are) to TP away. Blink provides instant results, and isn't countered by 200 gold. There are very few counters to blink, a the few damaging global skills like Zeus's ult are the only ones. In terms of mechanics, it's a far better choice as it provides instant results and perfect precise positioning to lane the perfect ult or Demon hands. Lothars is more expensive, but builds in easier pieces, though all of the pieces provide very little to aid early on. Blink adds no stats, but as stated, it's effect is far superior and as a whole it's a lot cheaper. I would never recommend going lothars except in a low level pub, in either case, blink would be more effective anyways.

In case you didn't get it, Lothar = Shroud. Anyway Shroud isn't viable for much except pub stomping, rarely do you see it used in a high level game.

[PoopyDesires]

Thank you for the extremely biased quote. Must've missed that.

[Hurfdurf]

Awesome guide. Really feel like I learned from it.

[Smurfslayer]

Although loathers is counter able by 200 gold wards, 180 dust, you shouldnt be initiating ever so the dust/wards shouldnt really effect you. On top of that you can use loathers while you are being damaged, and it gives a moves speed/ extra damage on attack
Plus early on you ge the quarter staff and you hit faster and harder
I totally agree on the no bottle first item bit. Bottle next 600 gold is awesome =D

Life steal (although mostly overated) saves with BKB, just saying, and 100% LS with satanic is ungodly with the damage pool he has

I liked the guide though, its nice and looks well done witht he pics and such

[Kveita]

Can´t wait for your vids! :D

[DspNoRemorse]

-Include Steamboots as an option if you're getting ganked a lot or having trouble farming Post Haste. Personally, I like Post Haste a lot more because it takes advantage of his great ricing but Steamboots provide some nice +hp that he needs as well.

-Why do you take ult at 9? Is it because you usually have blink by then or because you feel you should be farming instead of ganking? I think this should be mentioned when you describe your skill build.

-Typically in high lvl dota games most players take Dread around 12-15 from what I notice, there's nothing wrong with stats but maybe adding Dread would be a viable alternative.

No, no and no. I couldn't agree with the guide more.
Post Haste is one hundred times better than Steamboots even when delayed, because of the amazing mobility it offers, allowing you to farm ridiculously fast.

Soulburst is taken at level 9 so as to use the hero's early game nuking capabilities to their full potential.

Stats > Dread until level 17. Period. Not only does it ruin the element of surprise in ganks with it's relatively large AoE, but the enemies' armor is still low enough mid game. I'd take +10 in stats anytime.

I guess you should bold the part that this guide is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY, because i see some guy is already here saying "steamboots gives massive dps and assasin's shroud is by far superior to Portal Key LOLOLOL"

Amazing guide, looking forward to your vids.

Premium this already!

[PoopyDesires]

"steamboots gives massive dps and assasin's shroud is by far superior to Portal Key LOLOLOL"


Adding LOLOLOLOLOL always makes you look smart.

Sick of hearing about "higher level play" which is basically just another term for "people who need to get a life and want to feel more pro then everyone else.. LOLOLOL"

[Lethe]

Hmm k I think a post in overdue since this is basically a counter to my guide.

I state in my guide that the item build reflects that of a competitive game. Note that I also stated that because not all games will be of this tier, I will post optional items that are not as common (steamboots, shroud) as well.

You are completely right that I did not touch up on the "advanced" tactics involved in soulstealer play. I also did mention, however, that it is up to the reader to find out these tactics like fog razing etc. I do have other things to do and personally I find every minute I spend on extra stuff like "highly advanced tactics" is not worth it for what the readers will get out of it.

After all, if you are actually that experienced, I have absolutely no idea why you would need to read a guide to "high-level" play. Any player who honestly believes he has a good soulstealer already knows all these tips and tricks, even some of them I still disagree on...please find me one shadow fiend replay from farm4fame or some other tourney where shadow raze at level 1 is clearly more beneficial then necromastery. Also, the norm tends to be that the leaders are carry players, but that is nowhere near universal, hell even I tell the players on my team what to do when I'm playing ward ***** or gank if I feel the need to. You don't think Maelk or Puppey boss their teams around when they are playing Chen? Srsly now.

Fraps is a good idea, gl with that, although the replay system, once implemented, will basically void that whole idea. Just letting you know in case you overlooked that.

Anyways I will be stepping down from moderator after today. It will be interesting to see if this guide has the quality required to actually replace mines, especially since it will take very little effort on my part to just upload a soulstealer replay once replays are enabled. Gl nevertheless.

[kthxkevin]

No, no and no. I couldn't agree with the guide more.
Post Haste is one hundred times better than Steamboots even when delayed, because of the amazing mobility it offers, allowing you to farm ridiculously fast.

Soulburst is taken at level 9 so as to use the hero's early game nuking capabilities to their full potential.

Stats > Dread until level 17. Period. Not only does it ruin the element of surprise in ganks with it's relatively large AoE, but the enemies' armor is still low enough mid game. I'd take +10 in stats anytime.

I guess you should bold the part that this guide is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY, because i see some guy is already here saying "steamboots gives massive dps and assasin's shroud is by far superior to Portal Key LOLOLOL"

Amazing guide, looking forward to your vids.

Premium this already!
Please go here and find me a replay where stats are taken from 12-15

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays

I wish you luck sir.

[PoopyDesires]

Soulburst is taken at level 9 so as to use the hero's early game nuking capabilities to their full potential.


What early game nuking capabilities? Using your ult before its level 2 is stupid already, if you actually managed to hit somebody with every single torrent at 30 souls by level 9 if they for some reason let you stand there INSIDE of them, it's a 900 damage nuke after reduction. Enjoy attempting to do that at level 9.


Demon Hand is much more than enough to give you massive lane control and ganking capability. Getting ult early when it's much more effective at level 2 is stupid.

[Lim_Dul]

The guide is absolutely awesome BUT I wish Glorify hadn't used DotA terms in some sections, e.g. "Advantages of Blink vs Lothars".
Using DotA item names really alienates newcomers - I wonder when it will stop...

[Wolfsong]

I vote to have this guide in the premium section as well.

[Glorify1]

Hmm k I think a post in overdue since this is basically a counter to my guide.

I state in my guide that the item build reflects that of a competitive game. Note that I also stated that because not all games will be of this tier, I will post optional items that are not as common (steamboots, shroud) as well.

You are completely right that I did not touch up on the "advanced" tactics involved in soulstealer play. I also did mention, however, that it is up to the reader to find out these tactics like fog razing etc. I do have other things to do and personally I find every minute I spend on extra stuff like "highly advanced tactics" is not worth it for what the readers will get out of it.

After all, if you are actually that experienced, I have absolutely no idea why you would need to read a guide to "high-level" play. Any player who honestly believes he has a good soulstealer already knows all these tips and tricks, even some of them I still disagree on...please find me one shadow fiend replay from farm4fame or some other tourney where shadow raze at level 1 is clearly more beneficial then necromastery. Also, the norm tends to be that the leaders are carry players, but that is nowhere near universal, hell even I tell the players on my team what to do when I'm playing ward ***** or gank if I feel the need to. You don't think Maelk or Puppey boss their teams around when they are playing Chen? Srsly now.

Fraps is a good idea, gl with that, although the replay system, once implemented, will basically void that whole idea. Just letting you know in case you overlooked that.

Anyways I will be stepping down from moderator after today. It will be interesting to see if this guide has the quality required to actually replace mines, especially since it will take very little effort on my part to just upload a soulstealer replay once replays are enabled. Gl nevertheless.

Well, it was indeed meant to be a replacement for your guide, but don't take it so personally! :P

The problem I had with your guide, was it hurt my eyes to read. The information displayed wasn't really all that useful, and you've suggested two items that make me cringe even when I see them on a Soulstealer in a pub. A lot of your information is misinformation, and you didn't touch on a lot of the things that make Soulstealer such a power-house hero.

I hope you're not stepping down from Modding because I made this guide? Either way, I have a request, I've filled the maximum 35k characters I can have in a single post and need to have a post of mine moved to the second post so I can finish with the rest of the information I'd like to get across.

Finalizing, if the replay system shows mouse position and key clicks, Fraps would of been in vain. However, I don't think it will, and showing people where I move my mouse, camera, and how spazzy I am clicking every second is sure to show them little tricks on how to improve.

[Wolfsong]

Well, it was indeed meant to be a replacement for your guide, but don't take it so personally! :P

The problem I had with your guide, was it hurt my eyes to read. The information displayed wasn't really all that useful, and you've suggested two items that make me cringe even when I see them on a Soulstealer in a pub. A lot of your information is misinformation, and you didn't touch on a lot of the things that make Soulstealer such a power-house hero.

I hope you're not stepping down from Modding because I made this guide? Either way, I have a request, I've filled the maximum 35k characters I can have in a single post and need to have a post of mine moved to the second post so I can finish with the rest of the information I'd like to get across.

Finalizing, if the replay system shows mouse position and key clicks, Fraps would of been in vain. However, I don't think it will, and showing people where I move my mouse, camera, and how spazzy I am clicking every second is sure to show them little tricks on how to improve.

There is no need to act like an ass, Glorify.

I have read Trainingday Guide as well, it DOES NOT contain misinformation. It DID NOT recommend steamboots and shroud over Post Haste and Portal Key, it clearly stated that in competitive games Post Haste and Portal key is the way to go.

While your guide went to some more details and has value in that respect (which is why I said I would like your guide to be premium as well), it does not mean that it can REPLACE Trainingday's guide, both guides have their ups and downs.

Your sentence about stepping down as a mod just makes no sense and reflects badly on you, shame that a good guide's poster is acting like an idiot.

[Glorify1]

Always get soulsteal as your first skill is misinformation. If it nets you first blood to get raze, you get raze. I'm not being a dick, I was explaining why I chose to make the guide, since he seemed to want an answer.

[Gipp]

haha this is off topic glorify but...
your sig with the zeus and moon queen. was that the game where moon queen just riced all game (eventually owning them) and kept calling zeus the carry? lol

[Glorify1]

Yes. :)

[Ornithopter]

!support

[PoopyDesires]

But Shadowraze/DEMON HAND (Please refer to them in their HoN names) won't net you first blood at all at level 1. In fact it's not even powerful till you're at level 5 and it's at 3, not getting Soulsteal at level 1 is an absolute waste when the Soulsteal/Demon/Demon/Soul/Demon build gives you the damage you need extremely early without having to waste skill points on a spell that isn't useful at the level.

[Wolfsong]

But Shadowraze/DEMON HAND (Please refer to them in their HoN names) won't net you first blood at all at level 1. In fact it's not even powerful till you're at level 5 and it's at 3, not getting Soulsteal at level 1 is an absolute waste when the Soulsteal/Demon/Demon/Soul/Demon build gives you the damage you need extremely early without having to waste skill points on a spell that isn't useful at the level.

Glorify is right that it is situational, you should leave your skill unleveled untill the first rune clash (at minute 0): if there are 1 or 2 teammates helping you in a first rune fight, it is definately better to get Demon Hand than Soulsteal.

However I do not agree that suggesting getting Soulsteal at level 1 is 'misinformation' as such, it is mainly a suggestion/opinion, not a statement of fact as to the truth of some matter :)

[PoopyDesires]

Full Demon Hand combo at level 1 does 156 damage total. If you have at least 2 team mates at a first rune fight who don't have powerful nukes or stuns then go ahead, but in most cases Soulsteal is by far a better option at level 1.

[class]

Can't believe you didn't include Assasin's Shroud as an alternative to Portal Key as I find it far superior. I mean not even including Steamboots for their massive DPS boost I found pretty ridiculous.

I prefer my own Soulstealer build much more than this one.

No, you're bad.

[class]

btw, is that real QC from wow?

[Glorify1]

WoW sucks.

[PoopyDesires]

No, you're bad.

My build is styled for a completely different way of play. I just brought it up because I personally find building more DPS more effective, but I usually play Soulstealer as a team's hard carry.

Saying I'm bad with nothing behind it is just rude.

WoW sucks.

[Glorify1]

My build is styled for a completely different way of play. I just brought it up because I personally find building more DPS more effective, but I usually play Soulstealer as a team's hard carry.

Saying I'm bad with nothing behind it is just rude.

WoW sucks.

This build is styled as hard carry. You're obviously just playing at a different level of play, which makes no sense to comment here because this is a guide to high level of play.


But Shadowraze/DEMON HAND (Please refer to them in their HoN names) won't net you first blood at all at level 1. In fact it's not even powerful till you're at level 5 and it's at 3, not getting Soulsteal at level 1 is an absolute waste when the Soulsteal/Demon/Demon/Soul/Demon build gives you the damage you need extremely early without having to waste skill points on a spell that isn't useful at the level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCmFR5_htE

Quality is bad, may improve upon the video being processed, either way it shows the point I wanted to get across.

[Auricom1]

I loev soulzteler

[class]

wow does suck, what does that have to do with wondering if thta's the same QC from wow?


My build is styled for a completely different way of play. I just brought it up because I personally find building more DPS more effective, but I usually play Soulstealer as a team's hard carry.

Saying I'm bad with nothing behind it is just rude.

WoW sucks.

too bad ss is a soft carry huh

[PoopyDesires]

wow does suck, what does that have to do with wondering if thta's the same QC from wow?



too bad ss is a soft carry huh

Too bad there's much more than one build it's not like SS can potentially put out the highest DPS in the game and wipe an entire team provided a good initiator and absolutely break the game with only a few attacks huh.

[Glorify1]

Too bad there's much more than one build it's not like SS can potentially put out the highest DPS in the game and wipe an entire team provided a good initiator and absolutely break the game with only a few attacks huh.

SF's auto attack isn't the best in the game, sorry to say. There are far better heroes suited for right click win scenarios.

[PoopyDesires]

Sort of misused the "In the game"

I intended to say "In the match" as SS can easily use Soulsteal and Dread along with certain items to do a huge amount of DPS.

[Vamprski]

Can't say I agree with the item build exactly. Seems geared towards mid-game, but loses steam late game pretty quickly. Unfortunately, because of the price, it seems like you'll finish it late game.

Not only that, but the only use I can see in a blink/Shrunken Head combo is using your ult uninterrupted. The downside to this being that you can only perform this combo every 100 seconds, and can only do it ten times. Sure, it may be excellent when used like this, but what happens after? Your Shrunken Head AND your Port Key is on cooldown. How do you get away if you didn't kill all enemies in the area?

It doesn't seem to contribute too well to the team, as you can't put out the damage to carry, nor the disables, and popping your Shrunken Head will only encourage the enemy team to focus on your allies.

I can see why you don't like Assassin's Shroud, but it really is almost Soulstealer's perfect item. It gives him damage, attack speed, a chasing mechanism, an escaping mechanism, and the ability to cast his ult interrupted while hitting for the full 2400 potential damage. Sure, 200 gold will counter the invisibility this item gives, but let's not forget that it also gives a hefty 20% movement speed bonus and unit walking for literally half the game.

[captainsaki]

^

This post says it all;

[PoopyDesires]

^

This post says it all;

[Vamprski]

This build is styled as hard carry. You're obviously just playing at a different level of play, which makes no sense to comment here because this is a guide to high level of play.

On a different note, can you define a 'high level of play' please? You seemed to use it over ten times throughout this thread, and I'm not sure what defines high and low level of play.

[Glorify1]

Can't say I agree with the item build exactly. Seems geared towards mid-game, but loses steam late game pretty quickly. Unfortunately, because of the price, it seems like you'll finish it late game.

Not only that, but the only use I can see in a blink/Shrunken Head combo is using your ult uninterrupted. The downside to this being that you can only perform this combo every 100 seconds, and can only do it ten times. Sure, it may be excellent when used like this, but what happens after? Your Shrunken Head AND your Port Key is on cooldown. How do you get away if you didn't kill all enemies in the area?

It doesn't seem to contribute too well to the team, as you can't put out the damage to carry, nor the disables, and popping your Shrunken Head will only encourage the enemy team to focus on your allies.

I can see why you don't like Assassin's Shroud, but it really is almost Soulstealer's perfect item. It gives him damage, attack speed, a chasing mechanism, an escaping mechanism, and the ability to cast his ult interrupted while hitting for the full 2400 potential damage. Sure, 200 gold will counter the invisibility this item gives, but let's not forget that it also gives a hefty 20% movement speed bonus and unit walking for literally half the game.

Shrunken head will stop lowering the duration after 5 seconds, so you'll always have 5 seconds of magic immunity. It's not as much taken to stop the interuption of your ult as it is to abuse the imbalanced state currently in HoN regarding magic and immunity. In DotA, most ults went through immunity, where as in here none go through it. Popping it during your initiation will ensure that opponent's can't counter with their big damage spells.

Blink dagger has a minor cooldown, generally unless used to escape a gank prior to a push or otherwise it won't be on cooldown. In the odd happenstance that both BKB and blink are on cooldown, you delay pushes with your nukes. Even then, it's been stated that Soulstealer is more of an off initiate, meant to go in as an aoe disable does. Most of the times you can get your ult off regardless.

20% movespeed and unitwalking is a slightly upgraded phase boots, for double the cost and barely any addition to what he NEEDS. He gets into the middle of ****, it's where his ult is most effective, he needs hitpoints and immunity to survive against any competent team. Why do I think it's a bad item? Because it is a bad item, it's a pub item.

This leads to your question about high level games and low level games. Quite simply, a high level match is one in which two organized teams(or not teams, just groups of players) face off against eachother. Common things you would NOT see in high level matches but would commonly see in low level matches are:
-Ksing the carry
-No wards up at all
-Fighting for CS in a lane
-Letting your carry get harassed

There are lots of things that make up higher levels of play. To finish my response, the core gear of this build can be farmed in about 25 minutes on average. As I said, with a competent team you can easily win games with this core gear, however, more gear never hurts obviously. The reason I call it core gear, is because these are the items you NEED to get, it's not acceptable to skip any item on the list other than keeping the bracers/bands at circlets(not advised). There really isn't much else I can say to you to try and convince you, it's like trying to explain to pubstar dota players why Mortred is a terrible hero. If what I've said thus far isn't going to convince you, there really isn't anything that comes to mind that will.

[class]

hhahahahahahhah i love the bads who come in here acting like ss can hard carry when pretty much every hero in the game that is a carry can rape him in terms of dps output as he doesn't even scale well

and then there's the super bads who think shroud that the price of the items means you'll finish it late game here's a newsflash for terrible farmers who don't know what they're talking about and should stick to pubbing, dagger and bot is farmed by 16 minutes vs bad players, around 20-22 minutes against players that are even, with shruken head following by 30 mins, hardly late game.

your ulti is not intended to kill all the enemies in the area you idiot, it's meant to do a decent amount of damage with slow. with a decent initiator + your ulti 3/5 of their team should be very low if not dead

how do you get away? GEE IDK, IF SOMEONE INITIATES AND YOU USE YOUR ULTI THE REST OF YOUR TEAM SHOULD BE THERE SHOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM GETTING AWAY IF A FEW MEMBERS OF THE OPPOSING TEAM ARE DEAD RIGHT?

finally there's the mouthbreathers who think shroud is a good item when dagger is 5billion times better for positioning and any good team that knows you have a shroud is going to drop a ward so they can pre stop your ulti

guess what happens to ss vs a good team who knows what his weaknesses are and what his ulti does? they stun him and gib him in 3 seconds.

idk why idiots talk go

[PoopyDesires]

idk why idiots talk go
Neither do I.

[class]

HEY GUYS LET'S BUILD SS AS A HARD CARRY WHEN EVERY OTHER HARD CARRY IS GOING TO DESTROY HIM BECAUSE WE'RE ALL PUB PLAYING STAT RETARDS WHO ONLY WANT TO SEE BEYOND GODLIKE BECAUSE IT COMPENSATES FOR THE FACT THAT WE'RE RETARDED IRL

just thought i'd confirm that this is the thought process of terribles who don't have the cognitive ability to recognize what scales and what doesn't

[class]

hey blarfles nice ninja edit too bad with those items you can still do a huge amount of dps to their entire team

but dw about it, i'll let you know when i want to argue with a pub player who loses more than they win with an average of 62/4 ckd, nice, you sure know the fundamentals of lane control and you can farm super good man, teach me to be as good as you

[Vamprski]

Shrunken head will stop lowering the duration after 5 seconds, so you'll always have 5 seconds of magic immunity. It's not as much taken to stop the interuption of your ult as it is to abuse the imbalanced state currently in HoN regarding magic and immunity. In DotA, most ults went through immunity, where as in here none go through it. Popping it during your initiation will ensure that opponent's can't counter with their big damage spells.

Blink dagger has a minor cooldown, generally unless used to escape a gank prior to a push or otherwise it won't be on cooldown. In the odd happenstance that both BKB and blink are on cooldown, you delay pushes with your nukes. Even then, it's been stated that Soulstealer is more of an off initiate, meant to go in as an aoe disable does. Most of the times you can get your ult off regardless.

20% movespeed and unitwalking is a slightly upgraded phase boots, for double the cost and barely any addition to what he NEEDS. He gets into the middle of ****, it's where his ult is most effective, he needs hitpoints and immunity to survive against any competent team. Why do I think it's a bad item? Because it is a bad item, it's a pub item.

This leads to your question about high level games and low level games. Quite simply, a high level match is one in which two organized teams(or not teams, just groups of players) face off against eachother. Common things you would NOT see in high level matches but would commonly see in low level matches are:
-Ksing the carry
-No wards up at all
-Fighting for CS in a lane
-Letting your carry get harassed

There are lots of things that make up higher levels of play. To finish my response, the core gear of this build can be farmed in about 25 minutes on average. As I said, with a competent team you can easily win games with this core gear, however, more gear never hurts obviously. The reason I call it core gear, is because these are the items you NEED to get, it's not acceptable to skip any item on the list other than keeping the bracers/bands at circlets(not advised). There really isn't much else I can say to you to try and convince you, it's like trying to explain to pubstar dota players why Mortred is a terrible hero. If what I've said thus far isn't going to convince you, there really isn't anything that comes to mind that will.

Assassin's Shroud does not provide anything he needs? How about boost his damage? Give him the Phase Boot bonus so that he can have a better set of boots? Give him an initiator? Give him an escape? A Shrunken Head and bracers aren't going to beef him up to the point where he can escape ganks by merely walking away, hoping they don't hit him within 3 seconds. Let's not forget that building agility items not only gives him damage, but increases him armor, and therefore his tankiness. Soulstealer and Dread make this hero a DPS hero. In conjuction with the item Shield Breaker, he'll rip through other agility heroes (usually the carries).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing off your item build. However, it focuses way too much around Soulstealer's survival. Sure, he may be able to survive in a team clash, but honestly, what else would he be doing?

I'm sorry to do this, but I leave with a quote.


If what I've said thus far isn't going to convince you, there really isn't anything that comes to mind that will.

[PoopyDesires]

Could you please stop having a flamewar with yourself, Shortcake? Your odd arguing style reminiscent of an eight-year-old having a temper tantrum isn't getting you very far.

[class]

Assassin's Shroud does not provide anything he needs? How about boost his damage? Give him the Phase Boot bonus so that he can have a better set of boots? Give him an initiator? Give him an escape? A Shrunken Head and bracers aren't going to beef him up to the point where he can escape ganks by merely walking away, hoping they don't hit him within 3 seconds. Let's not forget that building agility items not only gives him damage, but increases him armor, and therefore his tankiness. Soulstealer and Dread make this hero a DPS hero. In conjuction with the item Shield Breaker, he'll rip through other agility heroes (usually the carries).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not writing off your item build. However, it focuses way too much around Soulstealer's survival. Sure, he may be able to survive in a team clash, but honestly, what else would he be doing?

I'm sorry to do this, but I leave with a quote.

how about you're a terrible pub player who has a horrible ratio (usually i wouldn't point this out but psr dipping lower than what you start at after more than 10 games is terrible), who averages 3 denies a game

you have never played a competitive game ever, you have no clue what you're talking about

'may not be able to survive in a team clash'? it's not a solo game, it's pretty obvious you are clueless

shut up

[PoopyDesires]

how about you're a terrible pub player who has a horrible ratio (usually i wouldn't point this out but psr dipping lower than what you start at after more than 10 games is terrible), who averages 3 denies a game

you have never played a competitive game ever, you have no clue what you're talking about

'may not be able to survive in a team clash'? it's not a solo game, it's pretty obvious you are clueless

shut up

You are very immature.

Will accept the infraction I know is coming for me however just for the sake of getting that message along.

[Nome]

lalalala

Obey the invisible suggestions rules please. Keep the flamewars out of here.

[class]

Could you please stop having a flamewar with yourself, Shortcake? Your odd arguing style reminiscent of an eight-year-old having a temper tantrum isn't getting you very far.

yeah, you're debating style is reminiscent of a clueless idiot who has no idea what he's talking about and pubs 100% of the time, thinks that going 10-0 is proof of skill, never bought a ward in his entire life, doesn't know the basics of lane control and gets treads on pyromancer yet talks as if he knows anything about the game

[PoopyDesires]

lalalala

Obey the invisible suggestions rules please. Keep the flamewars out of here.

Four

[class]

lalalala

Obey the invisible suggestions rules please. Keep the flamewars out of here.

i'm not flaming anyone, i'm just replying to terrible players criticizing an obviously good guide, in fact one of the best i've seen on these forums

[Vamprski]

finally there's the mouthbreathers who think shroud is a good item when dagger is 5billion times better for positioning and any good team that knows you have a shroud is going to drop a ward so they can pre stop your ulti

guess what happens to ss vs a good team who knows what his weaknesses are and what his ulti does? they stun him and gib him in 3 seconds.


First of all, you really should stop insulting everyone at a glance. It's quite crude.

Second of all, SS's ult does have a casting time. What's the difference between Wind Walking in, taking the chance of a stun ruining it, or blinking in, and taking the chance of a stun ruining it? Oh yea, you can't hit anybody with every single soul.

Let's not forget that as of now, there are only 3 heroes that are naturally capable of becoming invisible: Night Hound, Scout, and Keeper (and Madman if you want to be like that). I can't really see a team going straight for the revealing wards when they're aren't nearly the amount of invisibles that there were in DotA. However, I may be completely wrong. People may rush these in 'high level of play', as I'm unused to this level.

Also: pseudo-invisibility. You know how many times I died to Mortred because I didn't know she was there? If you know they have a revelation ward laying around, and a team clash is about to start, wait for your team mates to initiate, then run in stealthed during the mayhem and ult, preferably on a disabled carry.

It comes down to a matter of personal opinion, and whatever the person can put into better use.

[Nome]

i'm not flaming anyone, i'm just replying to terrible players criticizing an obviously good guide, in fact one of the best i've seen on these forums

Shush, you were flaming, and Blarfles was being somewhat arrogant. Both of you are at fault.

But for the record, Glorify's build is fine. Assassin's Shroud isn't TERRIBLE on him (in fact, it's been used in competitive play on SF in DotA), but it's certainly not nearly as flexible as Portal Key. SS's primary source of damage is his ultimate and his triple nuke--the physical damage is far behind that. In addition, because both his spell and physical damage output are extremely high already, you'd be best to focus on building for survivability.

[Vamprski]

I'll just leave this here.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm

[Wolfsong]

First of all, you really should stop insulting everyone at a glance. It's quite crude.

Second of all, SS's ult does have a casting time. What's the difference between Wind Walking in, taking the chance of a stun ruining it, or blinking in, and taking the chance of a stun ruining it? Oh yea, you can't hit anybody with every single soul.

Let's not forget that as of now, there are only 3 heroes that are naturally capable of becoming invisible: Night Hound, Scout, and Keeper (and Madman if you want to be like that). I can't really see a team going straight for the revealing wards when they're aren't nearly the amount of invisibles that there were in DotA. However, I may be completely wrong. People may rush these in 'high level of play', as I'm unused to this level.

Also: pseudo-invisibility. You know how many times I died to Mortred because I didn't know she was there? If you know they have a revelation ward laying around, and a team clash is about to start, wait for your team mates to initiate, then run in stealthed during the mayhem and ult, preferably on a disabled carry.

It comes down to a matter of personal opinion, and whatever the person can put into better use.


It is common to see each team carrying a Gem (forgot the name in HoN) in high level play from mid-late game on even when neither team has any invisible heroes, the purpose is to kill the other team's observer wards (wards of sight) so as to gain a map control advantage.

The OP is dead right about almost everything in competitive play. By the way read his last paragraph carefully if you have not done so, they are golden general tips to public players as to how to win a game, not just comments limited to Soulstealer.

[class]

First of all, you really should stop insulting everyone at a glance. It's quite crude.

Second of all, SS's ult does have a casting time. What's the difference between Wind Walking in, taking the chance of a stun ruining it, or blinking in, and taking the chance of a stun ruining it? Oh yea, you can't hit anybody with every single soul.

Let's not forget that as of now, there are only 3 heroes that are naturally capable of becoming invisible: Night Hound, Scout, and Keeper (and Madman if you want to be like that). I can't really see a team going straight for the revealing wards when they're aren't nearly the amount of invisibles that there were in DotA. However, I may be completely wrong. People may rush these in 'high level of play', as I'm unused to this level.

Also: pseudo-invisibility. You know how many times I died to Mortred because I didn't know she was there? If you know they have a revelation ward laying around, and a team clash is about to start, wait for your team mates to initiate, then run in stealthed during the mayhem and ult, preferably on a disabled carry.

It comes down to a matter of personal opinion, and whatever the person can put into better use.

.... bkb stops the stun chance

OH BUT SHORTCAKE I'M A BAD, WHAT IF I GET BKB WITH SHROUD?

LET'S SEE, a good team clicks on you at 25 minutes sees you have a shroud and laughs at you, next time they see your team coming to push they drop a ward, you come in with windwalk and they walk off ? portal key offers far better positioning.

i am really astonished at you thinking teams aren't going to buy wards to counter one hero, this isn't a pub. YO, THERE'S NO OTHER HEROES THAT CAN GO INVIS ON THE OTHER TEAM, LET'S JUST LET THE ONE WHO CAN WALTZ IN ON OUR ENTIRE TEAM AND FREE CAST ULTI EVERY SINGLE TIME.

i'm not trying to insult you for no reason and i think everyone has to start off somewhere, but criticizing a guide made to help players play at a higher level is just annoying, at least you admit that you haven't played in a competitive game yet, but what this guide does is promote good play as opposed to bad habits

it comes down to personal opinion in a pub. i sit in mid when i pubstomp and farm 3800 gold by 15 minutes and buy a divine rapier for fun by 23 because i can, but this obviously isn't going to work in any game vs a decent team

[class]

Shush, you were flaming, and Blarfles was being somewhat arrogant. Both of you are at fault.

But for the record, Glorify's build is fine. Assassin's Shroud isn't TERRIBLE on him (in fact, it's been used in competitive play on SF in DotA), but it's certainly not nearly as flexible as Portal Key. SS's primary source of damage is his ultimate and his triple nuke--the physical damage is far behind that. In addition, because both his spell and physical damage output are extremely high already, you'd be best to focus on building for survivability.

yes i'm aware of this, treads has also been used on sf in really high level play

however 95% of the time it's blink, agree?

[Vamprski]

.... bkb stops the stun chance

OH BUT SHORTCAKE I'M A BAD, WHAT IF I GET BKB WITH SHROUD?

LET'S SEE, a good team clicks on you at 25 minutes sees you have a shroud and laughs at you, next time they see your team coming to push they drop a ward, you come in with windwalk and they walk off ? portal key offers far better positioning.

i am really astonished at you thinking teams aren't going to buy wards to counter one hero, this isn't a pub. YO, THERE'S NO OTHER HEROES THAT CAN GO INVIS ON THE OTHER TEAM, LET'S JUST LET THE ONE WHO CAN WALTZ IN ON OUR ENTIRE TEAM AND FREE CAST ULTI EVERY SINGLE TIME.

i'm not trying to insult you for no reason and i think everyone has to start off somewhere, but criticizing a guide made to help players play at a higher level is just annoying, at least you admit that you haven't played in a competitive game yet, but what this guide does is promote good play as opposed to bad habits

it comes down to personal opinion in a pub. i sit in mid when i pubstomp and farm 3800 gold by 15 minutes and buy a divine rapier for fun by 23 because i can, but this obviously isn't going to work in any game vs a decent team

Reading this post literally hurt my eyes.

As I said previously, it all comes down to opinion. This post is clearly pure, 100% opinion. Nome just said that Shroud has been seen in high level play. It's just a different way to play, and I don't understand why that's so hard for you to understand.

And let me get this straight. I never bashed his guide. In fact, I think it's beautifully layed out, and provides many good tips and pointers. However, I whole-heartedly disagree with the item build.

Apparently I didn't get this point across, because it's turning into some Blink vs Invisible war.

http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-29-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8
http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-58-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8

Both viable builds. Shroud gives a lot more than you'd expect, as shown by the 154 DPS decrease, but blink is most likely much more useful in high-level play, as you say. I personally take Shroud, as I juke insanely well with the thing. However, as I have never played in a league, my techniques might not work at all.

For example, I'll go up a ramp into fog of war, pop Shroud, then backtrack, as my followers keep running blindly ahead. Cracks me up every time.

But if I'm dusted, or if one of them has an eye, I guess you're right, Shroud is a pub item. But a good one at that.

[Vamprski]

Oh, and good night. I have school in two days.

[class]

it's fine in pubs, you're right on that

and yes, it has been used by the best players in really high level play, but 95% of the time dagger is bought instead

anyway, bye

[PoopyDesires]

Guess this guide is clearly intended to cater to a whole different perspective.

Will just stick to mine and just keep winning whenever I pick Soulstealer myself >_>

[chiakoni]

Reading this post literally hurt my eyes.

As I said previously, it all comes down to opinion. This post is clearly pure, 100% opinion. Nome just said that Shroud has been seen in high level play. It's just a different way to play, and I don't understand why that's so hard for you to understand.

And let me get this straight. I never bashed his guide. In fact, I think it's beautifully layed out, and provides many good tips and pointers. However, I whole-heartedly disagree with the item build.

Apparently I didn't get this point across, because it's turning into some Blink vs Invisible war.

http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-29-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8
http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-58-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8

Both viable builds. Shroud gives a lot more than you'd expect, as shown by the 154 DPS decrease, but blink is most likely much more useful in high-level play, as you say. I personally take Shroud, as I juke insanely well with the thing. However, as I have never played in a league, my techniques might not work at all.

For example, I'll go up a ramp into fog of war, pop Shroud, then backtrack, as my followers keep running blindly ahead. Cracks me up every time.

But if I'm dusted, or if one of them has an eye, I guess you're right, Shroud is a pub item. But a good one at that.

lol

Did you really just link a lvl 25 30k gold item build to argue your point? Do you know how dps works? I'm gona assume you don't based on the mental aptitude of your previous posts, so... the dps gain from stats rise the more and more you get as a result of crits, aspd, base dmg, etc. A lothars at lvl 25 with that ridiculous build that I'm pretty sure will never happen in anything outside of an EM pub gives a lot more than it should. With any reasonable amount of stuff it'd barely give you 30 or 40ish dps. Oh, and that's the older lothars that gives better stats.

And lol @ bkb being for "ulting safely". More like it's for giving you more survivability than a heart with hon's current hero pool of aoe spam x3 minimum on each team for a fraction of the price along with immunity to disables for the few seconds where getting disabled matters. You go straight to that shieldbreaker though, right click it up.

Shortcake - you sound like a complete tard. Not only do you sound like a complete tard, you make a post and then reply with another one right after. Settle down buddy.
Blarfles - it's good that you do so well and win all the time on soulstealer. If you'd like my constructive criticism, I suggest you keep picking him so that perhaps you will break that prestigious 50% win rate in the 1500s.

Anyway, why delay the aura glorify? Wouldn't you not care about pushing lanes at the point you'd be getting it anyway? Also wouldn't you be bot raze farming them anyway by that time?

++ guide

[Glorify1]

Well, with the build I use, I utilize all of my razes, blink, ult, so the increase in both hitpoints and mana are more beneficial than the aura at that stage. Generally I'll be working on another item after my core items when I skill my aura, and since more so than not most of my damage comes from my skills rather than my auto attacks at this point. I mean, you could go aura if you wanted to, I prefer the hitpoints and mana to aid in farming and surviving a teamfight rather than the meager DPS gains(I don't attack very fast at this stage, even though I hit for a decent amount).

I enjoy all of the feedback that you're all giving, and even though I agree with shortcake on this one, you could get your point across far better.

In regards to the two links you posted about the DotA builds, I never once claimed that you'll get more damage with blink dagger. You'll DO more damage because of better positioning and such, and you're more likely to win games with one as opposed to using lothars.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

To the OP:

This is the first guide in these forums that I agree 100% on (well 99%, I usually get 2 x bracers instead of bands because I find I have enough damage and not enough HP). Otherwise, congrats on the guide!

Assassin's Shroud is not terrible per se, but leaves you hanging around like a chicken against good players with dust. I really see no reason to get Assassin's in HoN, in Dota you could at least Lothar INTO the enemy hero model and release souls for insta-kill.

Post Haste is obviously better than Steam Boots in 99.99% of cases, after all SS has one of the best farming skills in the game.

While Steam Boots + Assassin's Shroud will get you good DPS early on, but a SS with Post Haste and Head will be able to outlevel, outfarm, and outdamage in team battles (due to spell immunity).

Edit: To Barfles -> http://hon.slawed.net/view.php?nick=Blarfles&View+Stats=View+Stats!

Wins: 91
Losses: 95
Win%: 48.9%

[Glorify1]

To the OP:

This is the first guide in these forums that I agree 100% on (well 99%, I usually get 2 x bracers instead of bands because I find I have enough damage and not enough HP). Otherwise, congrats on the guide!

Assassin's Shroud is not terrible per se, but leaves you hanging around like a chicken against good players with dust. I really see no reason to get Assassin's in HoN, in Dota you could at least Lothar INTO the enemy hero model and release souls for insta-kill.

Post Haste is obviously better than Steam Boots in 99.99% of cases, after all SS has one of the best farming skills in the game.

While Steam Boots + Assassin's Shroud will get you good DPS early on, but a SS with Post Haste and Head will be able to outlevel, outfarm, and outdamage in team battles (due to spell immunity).

Edit: To Barfles -> http://hon.slawed.net/view.php?nick=Blarfles&View+Stats=View+Stats!

Wins: 91
Losses: 95
Win%: 48.9%

I generally finish my bands ASAP to make last hitting against say an ARC spam zeus easier, but I did also say bracers were a possibility.

[ElementUser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCmFR5_htE

Quality is bad, may improve upon the video being processed, either way it shows the point I wanted to get across.

LOL their Behemoth blocked their own Defiler xD

Also, add that link to your first post so other people won't have to read through 2 pages before finding this video (or not finding it at all)

[Wolfsong]

LOL their Behemoth blocked their own Defiler xD

Also, add that link to your first post so other people won't have to read through 2 pages before finding this video (or not finding it at all)

Lol it was 2v3 too.

[Heliotic]

lol

Did you really just link a lvl 25 30k gold item build to argue your point? Do you know how dps works? I'm gona assume you don't based on the mental aptitude of your previous posts, so... the dps gain from stats rise the more and more you get as a result of crits, aspd, base dmg, etc. A lothars at lvl 25 with that ridiculous build that I'm pretty sure will never happen in anything outside of an EM pub gives a lot more than it should. With any reasonable amount of stuff it'd barely give you 30 or 40ish dps.


While I agree that dagger is probably better, your point is not true. With a 'reasonable' late game build (butterfly, head, boots @ level 20), the lothars is worth 90 dps more than the dagger, which is a ~40% damage boost on the auto attack.

That is a lot more than 30 or 40ish dps, and a trade off definitely worth making in pubs where positioning is less important and more carry potential is required.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Reading this post literally hurt my eyes.

As I said previously, it all comes down to opinion. This post is clearly pure, 100% opinion. Nome just said that Shroud has been seen in high level play. It's just a different way to play, and I don't understand why that's so hard for you to understand.

And let me get this straight. I never bashed his guide. In fact, I think it's beautifully layed out, and provides many good tips and pointers. However, I whole-heartedly disagree with the item build.

Apparently I didn't get this point across, because it's turning into some Blink vs Invisible war.

http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-29-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8
http://www.dotacalc.com/65y161-58-24-34-40-49ba1bababdcdc2ede8

Both viable builds. Shroud gives a lot more than you'd expect, as shown by the 154 DPS decrease, but blink is most likely much more useful in high-level play, as you say. I personally take Shroud, as I juke insanely well with the thing. However, as I have never played in a league, my techniques might not work at all.

For example, I'll go up a ramp into fog of war, pop Shroud, then backtrack, as my followers keep running blindly ahead. Cracks me up every time.

But if I'm dusted, or if one of them has an eye, I guess you're right, Shroud is a pub item. But a good one at that.

Your build involves:

30k worth of gold, WITHOUT Post Haste. If you had Post Haste, it would be reasonable to get 30k worth of farm in about 50-60 minutes if you don't die much, but you don't.

1.3k health on level 25. Seriously? It would take you a hex's duration to get you down.

Power Threads on Level 25. While getting PTs is viable, when things get into late game, PTs should have been sold a long time ago.

[kitteh]

My two cents as a forum lurker.
This guide definitely deserves to be rated premium. Good job writing it. It's been a pleasure reading the guide, and I learnt some game-changing stuff i.e., portal key being a better choice than shroud.
Two thumbs up!

[Lethe]

Me stepping down has nothing to do with this guide lol. I have known for the last month that today would be the last day before I go inactive.

Anyways most people don't have problems with my formatting and the information contained in my guide has been generally deemed to be favorable. Hence why my guides have been considered premium worthy.

And as you can see I'm not even a mod anymore lol. Ask Nome or Sucker to move your posts.

[Fenald]

Me stepping down has nothing to do with this guide lol. I have known for the last month that today would be the last day before I go inactive.

Anyways most people don't have problems with my formatting and the information contained in my guide has been generally deemed to be favorable. Hence why my guides have been considered premium worthy.

And as you can see I'm not even a mod anymore lol. Ask Nome or Sucker to move your posts.


Most people would believe refresher ags is better than guinsoo on zeus.

People don't know what they're doing, especially people who are looking to be told what to do.

[PoopyDesires]

To the OP:

This is the first guide in these forums that I agree 100% on (well 99%, I usually get 2 x bracers instead of bands because I find I have enough damage and not enough HP). Otherwise, congrats on the guide!

Assassin's Shroud is not terrible per se, but leaves you hanging around like a chicken against good players with dust. I really see no reason to get Assassin's in HoN, in Dota you could at least Lothar INTO the enemy hero model and release souls for insta-kill.

Post Haste is obviously better than Steam Boots in 99.99% of cases, after all SS has one of the best farming skills in the game.

While Steam Boots + Assassin's Shroud will get you good DPS early on, but a SS with Post Haste and Head will be able to outlevel, outfarm, and outdamage in team battles (due to spell immunity).

Edit: To Barfles -> http://hon.slawed.net/view.php?nick=Blarfles&View+Stats=View+Stats!

Wins: 91
Losses: 95
Win%: 48.9%

Do you really think I give a god damn about my stats? I never even stated that I am any good at the game.

However I pride myself on understanding game mechanics very well. The reason my points seemed so ridiculously out of place is because I am definitely not so much a competitive player as a casual player, and though I have a lot of experience I'm not moving along so much in skill so much as I'm understanding the functions of it more and more each day.

I did try out Portal Key and I do admit it worked relatively well, and it is a shame that Shroud does not have the advantage Lothar's had of easily instagibbing.

This build clearly caters to more hardcore players, so I'm probably going to write my own guide for the more noobish players wanting to learn a DPS hero that does more than right-click rather than focusing 100% on his spell power.


Your build involves:

30k worth of gold, WITHOUT Post Haste. If you had Post Haste, it would be reasonable to get 30k worth of farm in about 50-60 minutes if you don't die much, but you don't.

1.3k health on level 25. Seriously? It would take you a hex's duration to get you down.

Power Threads on Level 25. While getting PTs is viable, when things get into late game, PTs should have been sold a long time ago.


You completely missed the point of his post, he was simply showing how in a pure-DPS end-game build Shroud offers a large DPS boost. He wasn't suggesting this as an end game build. Depending on the enemy line-ups AoE/Nukespam I would definitely make that build and just replace the Daemonic Breastplate/AC with a Shrunken Head, as the 4000 physical EHP is enough at that.

[Fenald]

Do you really think I give a god damn about my stats? I never even stated that I am any good at the game.

However I pride myself on understanding game mechanics very well. The reason my points seemed so ridiculously out of place is because I am definitely not so much a competitive player as a casual player, and though I have a lot of experience I'm not moving along so much in skill so much as I'm understanding the functions of it more and more each day.

I did try out Portal Key and I do admit it worked relatively well, and it is a shame that Shroud does not have the advantage Lothar's had of easily instagibbing.

This build clearly caters to more hardcore players, so I'm probably going to write my own guide for the more noobish players wanting to learn a DPS hero that does more than right-click rather than focusing 100% on his spell power.

Did you read the title name before making 100 posts arguing pointlessly with people?

[PoopyDesires]

As a nub to any sort of competitive play I was attempting to learn the different workings of it by comparing them to casual play builds. I recognized most points and after watching some videos of higher-tier matches definitely understand why.

Did you read between the lines before pointlessly flaming me?

[evotech]

You keep saying "you have a crow" but i dont see in the guide when you buy this crow, is this after the bottle?

Just a bit unsure on your builds

[Vamprski]

Your build involves:

30k worth of gold, WITHOUT Post Haste. If you had Post Haste, it would be reasonable to get 30k worth of farm in about 50-60 minutes if you don't die much, but you don't.

1.3k health on level 25. Seriously? It would take you a hex's duration to get you down.

Power Threads on Level 25. While getting PTs is viable, when things get into late game, PTs should have been sold a long time ago.

The whole point of these two links wasn't actual builds that you'll get, it was just an example of the differences between the Port Key and Shroud. The whole point I'm trying to get across is that it really comes down to opinion.

[Fenald]

As a nub to any sort of competitive play I was attempting to learn the different workings of it by comparing them to casual play builds. I recognized most points and after watching some videos of higher-tier matches definitely understand why.

Did you read between the lines before pointlessly flaming me?


I didn't flame you............................................... .........................



You keep saying "you have a crow" but i dont see in the guide when you buy this crow, is this after the bottle?

Just a bit unsure on your buildsThe support heroes buy crows/wards.


The whole point I'm trying to get across is that it really comes down to opinion.

Except that it doesn't.

[Utred]

You keep saying "you have a crow" but i dont see in the guide when you buy this crow, is this after the bottle?

Just a bit unsure on your builds
A teammate buys it.

[Vamprski]

Well, with the build I use, I utilize all of my razes, blink, ult, so the increase in both hitpoints and mana are more beneficial than the aura at that stage. Generally I'll be working on another item after my core items when I skill my aura, and since more so than not most of my damage comes from my skills rather than my auto attacks at this point. I mean, you could go aura if you wanted to, I prefer the hitpoints and mana to aid in farming and surviving a teamfight rather than the meager DPS gains(I don't attack very fast at this stage, even though I hit for a decent amount).

I enjoy all of the feedback that you're all giving, and even though I agree with shortcake on this one, you could get your point across far better.

In regards to the two links you posted about the DotA builds, I never once claimed that you'll get more damage with blink dagger. You'll DO more damage because of better positioning and such, and you're more likely to win games with one as opposed to using lothars.

Agility does increase your physical EHP.

Although if you were playing against 2 or more nukers, I can see why this build would help with the survivability. But after the head, I would most likely start building agility items. They help you scale a bit better into late game, and they tank you up a decent amount.

I am going to trade out my Shroud for Port Key for a couple of games, and see how it works out for me. I'm keeping my treads, though, because they're made up of a bunch of small parts I didn't realize were so useful to my play style.

[Vamprski]

I didn't flame you............................................... .........................


The support heroes buy crows/wards.



Except that it doesn't.

Why not?

I think that if a person is willing to take the chance of a bound eye, revelation ward, or dust, in favor of invisibility, and that they are willing to deal with the consequences (price and unreliability), they should be entitled to it. What are you going to do to stop me thinking this?

You can't. it's my opinion.

[Fenald]

Why not?

I think that if a person is willing to take the chance of a bound eye, revelation ward, or dust, in favor of invisibility, and that they are willing to deal with the consequences (price and unreliability), they should be entitled to it. What are you going to do to stop me thinking this?

You can't. it's my opinion.

I can't stop you from thinking you can fly either but it doesn't change the fact that you can't.

[Lews]

Thank you for the extremely biased quote. Must've missed that.

I'll have to agree with Glorify here, lothars/shroud simply doesn't have a place in a *COST EFFECTIVE* Shadowfiend. If you're stalling your 'ulti combo' and your raze positioning then you're not helping as much in team fights, and blink (as said) has instant impact when you buy it.

[Vamprski]

I can't stop you from thinking you can fly either but it doesn't change the fact that you can't.

No. But that's a fact.

The human species do not have wings, therefore they cannot fly. They do not have gills, therefore they cannot breath underwater. These are scientific facts. However, saying that Port Key > Assassin's Shroud is opinion, and opinion alone.

[Fenald]

No. But that's a fact.

The human species do not have wings, therefore they cannot fly. They do not have gills, therefore they cannot breath underwater. These are scientific facts. However, saying that Port Key > Assassin's Shroud is opinion, and opinion alone.

Countless competitive/professional players would disagree.

Under the circumstances this guide is intended for dagger has been proven over and over to be the better item.

[evotech]

Instant attack > Slow walking in and getting revealed by good players
cheap > expensive

[PoopyDesires]

Wooosh!

That was the sound of Vamprski's point flying way over your head.

I guess they DO say that the ignorant man will always win the argument.

[Vamprski]

Assassin's Shroud isn't TERRIBLE on him (in fact, it's been used in competitive play on SF in DotA), but it's certainly not nearly as flexible as Portal Key.

It has been used, by people who prefer it. Because their personal opinion is that it's better for them. Prefer. Personal opinion.

[Fenald]

Wooosh!

That was the sound of Vamprski's point flying way over your head.

I guess they DO say that the ignorant man will always win the argument.


His point is arguing semantics in an argument hes already lost claiming that because there are no specific rules or numbers that it's an opinion.

I could claim that 6 null talismans is the best items in the game for soulstealer. It's an opinion and I'd still be horribly wrong.

[PoopyDesires]

Yet is he claiming Shroud is the best item in the game?

No, he is claiming Shroud is his personal favorite for Soulstealer, which is a fact and therefore obviously right. However saying Shroud is one of the best items for soulstealer is opinion and could be right or wrong in a variety of different very specific scenarios.

[Vamprski]

His point is arguing semantics in an argument hes already lost claiming that because there are no specific rules or numbers that it's an opinion.

I could claim that 6 null talismans is the best items in the game for soulstealer. It's an opinion and I'd still be horribly wrong.

Sure, you could. But these items are stats only. The reason you're getting a Port Key or Shroud is because of the utility.

It's like saying that a Stormspirit is better than a Totem, or vice versa. They are both two different items with the same idea in mind, but different mechanics.

[Fenald]

Sure, you could. But these items are stats only. The reason you're getting a Port Key or Shroud is because of the utility.

It's like saying that a Stormspirit is better than a Totem, or vice versa. They are both two different items with the same idea in mind, but different mechanics.


And based on the level of play we're talking about here one of them is better than the other.

[PoopyDesires]

No..

[Vamprski]

And based on the level of play we're talking about here one of them is better than the other.

In different people's hands. Say a person get's Shroud, but they knew the other team would probably get revelation wards, so they volunteered to carry the bound eye. Wouldn't this work out, as they would counter their own counters?

As I have said countless times before:

It. All. Comes. Down. To. Opinion.

[Fenald]

It's like me going into a competitive counterstrike discussion and claiming the fiveseven is better than the deagle because it has more shots and it's just personal preference.


In different people's hands. Say a person get's Shroud, but they knew the other team would probably get revelation wards, so they volunteered to carry the bound eye. Wouldn't this work out, as they would counter their own counters?

As I have said countless times before:

It. All. Comes. Down. To. Opinion.
No but it would result in the other team getting a free gem to further counter your shroud.

[PoopyDesires]

Because there is a 100% logical chance that you die.

[Fenald]

Because there is a 100% logical chance that you die.
Because bound eye doesn't see wards.

[Vamprski]

It's like me going into a competitive counterstrike discussion and claiming the fiveseven is better than the deagle because it has more shots and it's just personal preference.


[/B]No but it would result in the other team getting a free gem to further counter your shroud.

I'm unfamiliar with Counter Strike. Wasn't into FPSs when it came out.

Let's not forget that they get the gem only if you die. If you're countering all of their wards, and keep away from the guys with eyes and dust, how would you die? You're invisible, right?

[Fenald]

I'm unfamiliar with Counter Strike. Wasn't into FPSs when it came out.

Let's not forget that they get the gem only if you die. If you're countering all of their wards, and keep away from the guys with eyes and dust, how would you die? You're invisible, right?

Because bound eye doesn't see wards.

Not to mention if you're keeping away from the people with dust and eyes you're not doing anything so congrats on not dying you might as well have just sat at the fountain from level 1.

[chiakoni]

First, I consider myself fairly decent but by no means really good or anything. Second, I prefer dagger personally.

That said, if you think shroud is a "horrible pub item" and that wards/gem/whatever completely counters it you're a moron.

LOL COPMETITIVE PLAYERZ OMG TOP TIER HIGH END PLAY OMG REAL GAMES LOL

Lets see, after looking at gosureplays for 15min, here are the most recent games with an SF in them from the replay list. (note, all of these are "competitive" players and the games are in high end leagues/tournaments)

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23152
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23111
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23097
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23085
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23084
SF uses lothars, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23081
Game ends before either, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23044
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23023
SF uses dagger, his team lost.

Soo, out of 8 games, dagger is used 4 times and lothars is used 3 times. The ONLY games where sf's team wins are the ones where they make lothars. Clearly this is indisputable proof that dagger is a bad item for pseudo competitive players and the proest of the pros go for lothars.

[Nome]

First, I consider myself fairly decent but by no means really good or anything. Second, I prefer dagger personally.

That said, if you think shroud is a "horrible pub item" and that wards/gem/whatever completely counters it you're a moron.

LOL COPMETITIVE PLAYERZ OMG TOP TIER HIGH END PLAY OMG REAL GAMES LOL

Lets see, after looking at gosureplays for 15min, here are the most recent games with an SF in them from the replay list. (note, all of these are "competitive" players and the games are in high end leagues/tournaments)

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23152
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23111
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23097
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23085
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23084
SF uses lothars, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23081
Game ends before either, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23044
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23023
SF uses dagger, his team lost.

Soo, out of 8 games, dagger is used 4 times and lothars is used 3 times. The ONLY games where sf's team wins are the ones where they make lothars. Clearly this is indisputable proof that dagger is a bad item for pseudo competitive players and the proest of the pros go for lothars.

Hey you secret Russian, friend me! <3

Anyway, that's an interesting analysis. I suspect Fenald and Glorify haven't played DotA recently... not sure. They may still be on the old Lothar's mindset--I know I still am to an extent, even though I get the item a lot.

[_PINK]

Sure, you could. But these items are stats only. The reason you're getting a Port Key or Shroud is because of the utility.

It's like saying that a Stormspirit is better than a Totem, or vice versa. They are both two different items with the same idea in mind, but different mechanics.

Totem is better than Stormspirit.

[Fenald]

The SF wasn't even mid for those first 3 games.

You'll notice games with the lothars the team has another strong initiator.

[PoopyDesires]

Totem is better than Stormspirit.

I'd much rather save myself with a cyclone while my team comes out then disable one dude while the rest of them rape me.

[Vamprski]

Totem is better than Stormspirit.

Nope.

The price difference makes both items useful.

I get Stormspirit all the time on Int heroes for the mana regen, disable, and movement speed.

Totem has better stats, but is much more expensive.

[Decency]

This is the best guide I've ever read on these forums, and even as an admittedly low level player it's obvious who's right in these minor debates by the points you're making.

Okay, your opinion is that Lothar's is better than Portkey in a competitive game. Good for you, I can't take that from you! Seeing as you've never actually been in a high-level competitive game, though, your opinion doesn't mean jack **** and there's no reason why anyone should listen to it over the opinion of the better players who have posted. So go give your thoughts in your own thread, because they're just spam here.

[Vamprski]

This is the best guide I've ever read on these forums, and even as an admittedly low level player it's obvious who's right in these minor debates by the points you're making.

Okay, your opinion is that Lothar's is better than Portkey in a competitive game. Good for you, I can't take that from you! Seeing as you've never actually been in a high-level competitive game, though, your opinion doesn't mean jack **** and there's no reason why anyone should listen to it over the opinion of the better players who have posted. So go give your thoughts in your own thread, because they're just spam here.

My opinion doesn't mean jack, eh?

My opinion is that people are allowed to have their opinion.

So, in theory, this makes you a facist.

While probably incorrect, it goes to show I am not getting my point across clearly. Read it now and remember:

People have the right to choose what works best for them.

EDIT: Misread.

[chiakoni]

The SF wasn't even mid for those first 3 games.

You'll notice games with the lothars the team has another strong initiator.

What's your point? Keep going through the replays up to the last patch and sf goes sidelane almost as often as he goes mid, people pick loth over blink a bunch & they win & lose in both cases.

I never watched a 'comp dota replay' before, I have no idea who any of these people are and I personally don't give enough of a **** about the game to change that but... apparently the people who sit around playing all day to fly around the world to go to tournaments & make money seem to think lothars is viable & they seem to think sf is good enough to put in a sidelane. Oh, & in almost all of those they get aura by 16.

Just kinda funny how every post you made has been "lolz this guide is for competitive players at high level play shut up ur wrong theres no opinions" when the competitive players at high level play are doing the opposite.

Also.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoCmFR5_htE
I notice you had as good initiation in that game asthe replays, did glorify end up making shroud? I'm gonna guess not cuz...*gasp* both might be viable and it's hugely preference?!


Hey you secret Russian, friend me! <3

sup<3 DONE.. maybe next time the game'll be good enough to record :(

[Glorify1]

You keep saying "you have a crow" but i dont see in the guide when you buy this crow, is this after the bottle?

Just a bit unsure on your builds

Your team buys the crow, if you're in a pub with extremely bad players it would be acceptable to buy a chicken instead of +3 agi and +1 all stats. Bottle first 600 gold, then crow it the next 200 you get.


Why not?

I think that if a person is willing to take the chance of a bound eye, revelation ward, or dust, in favor of invisibility, and that they are willing to deal with the consequences (price and unreliability), they should be entitled to it. What are you going to do to stop me thinking this?

You can't. it's my opinion.

The difference between lothars and blink dagger is definately not opinion. It's like saying there is a big difference between guinsoos and euls on zeus. One is extremely useful, and one is compeletely terrible.

It's not that I can stop your opinion, the whole point of trying to teach someone is to help them learn. If it's your opinion 3x3 is 6, and I know it's 9, should I try and convince you otherwise or let you keep thinking the wrong answer.


First, I consider myself fairly decent but by no means really good or anything. Second, I prefer dagger personally.

That said, if you think shroud is a "horrible pub item" and that wards/gem/whatever completely counters it you're a moron.

LOL COPMETITIVE PLAYERZ OMG TOP TIER HIGH END PLAY OMG REAL GAMES LOL

Lets see, after looking at gosureplays for 15min, here are the most recent games with an SF in them from the replay list. (note, all of these are "competitive" players and the games are in high end leagues/tournaments)

http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23152
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23111
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23097
SF uses dagger, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23085
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23084
SF uses lothars, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23081
Game ends before either, his team lost.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23044
SF uses lothars, his team won.
http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/23023
SF uses dagger, his team lost.

Soo, out of 8 games, dagger is used 4 times and lothars is used 3 times. The ONLY games where sf's team wins are the ones where they make lothars. Clearly this is indisputable proof that dagger is a bad item for pseudo competitive players and the proest of the pros go for lothars.

It's not because blink < Lothars, it's because SF isn't very good in DotA anymore. He's shifted from the meta, as a very fragile hero, he can't keep up with the gank meta. The meta of DotA has shifted to durable caster carries like DP and Necro, or to carries that can get away from ganks rather successfully like Morphling. BKB is no where near as effective in DotA as it is here, and Enigma has MANY counters in DotA where as he has only one or two here in HoN.


Just kinda funny how every post you made has been "lolz this guide is for competitive players at high level play shut up ur wrong theres no opinions" when the competitive players at high level play are doing the opposite.

While DotA and HoN are similar games, their metagame is completely different.

[Vamprski]

*gasp* both might be viable and it's hugely preference?!

I love you so much.

[PoopyDesires]

The difference between lothars and blink dagger is definately not opinion. It's like saying there is a big difference between guinsoos and euls on zeus. One is extremely useful, and one is compeletely terrible.

Wow.

Just.. Wow.

I lost most of my respect for you with this comment.


I'm gonna guess not cuz...*gasp* both might be viable and it's hugely preference?!

You just got my undying respect with this.

[Vamprski]

It's not that I can stop your opinion, the whole point of trying to teach someone is to help them learn. If it's your opinion 3x3 is 6, and I know it's 9, should I try and convince you otherwise or let you keep thinking the wrong answer.


Three times three equals nine.

This is fact.

Once more:

FACT.

Blink and Invisible are two very different ways to do basically the same things. In the end, it will always boil down to opinion.

My opinion is that people are allowed to have their own opinions. Your opinion is that blink dagger is better then shroud. I respect this opinion, I really do. But when you come along and say that your opinion that Shroud sucks is fact, I will no longer respect you.

[charlieeeh]

It's not because blink < Lothars, it's because SF isn't very good in DotA anymore. He's shifted from the meta, as a very fragile hero, he can't keep up with the gank meta. The meta of DotA has shifted to durable caster carries like DP and Necro, or to carries that can get away from ganks rather successfully like Morphling. BKB is no where near as effective in DotA as it is here, and Enigma has MANY counters in DotA where as he has only one or two here in HoN.
Is this a joke?

I mean, your guide was okay, great by HoN standards, but is that particular post some sick, sarcasm that I failed to notice?

[chiakoni]

It's not because blink < Lothars, it's because SF isn't very good in DotA anymore. He's shifted from the meta, as a very fragile hero, he can't keep up with the gank meta. The meta of DotA has shifted to durable caster carries like DP and Necro, or to carries that can get away from ganks rather successfully like Morphling. BKB is no where near as effective in DotA as it is here, and Enigma has MANY counters in DotA where as he has only one or two here in HoN.

1. How does a hero's usefulness effect what item people buy on it? SF not being very good is the cause for people buying items that aren't very good (according to you)? Not following.
2. If he's not very good anymore, why is he still picked so often? Why is the top team at this tournament atm (ADC 09) using him nearly every game with a lothar's & winning? Why are the other teams in the tournament also using him? Why did the final match at Gamescom (apparently the biggest dota tournament so far) a couple of weeks ago have sf on the winning team? Also, took me 5 minutes to look through the first 5 pages of replays to find SF games & I can tell you there was literally like 1 krob pick in 50+ games & barely half as many necro picks as sf.
3. The sfs in all those replays are making BKB, sometimes before dagger/loth/boots as a first item. Ofc it's way better in HON but not sure how this makes any difference.

anyway, i played with you a few times angel. Listening to you **** talk is pretty funny & enjoyable, you're a really good player (def better than me) & this guide is prolly the best made here but I duno why you don't just admit you're wrong on such a small thing when the players in actual 'high end competitive play' clearly do the opposite of what you're saying. ;p

[Glorify1]

1. How does a hero's usefulness effect what item people buy on it? SF not being very good is the cause for people buying items that aren't very good (according to you)? Not following.If you've read anything I said, DotA has become gank heavy. Players buying lothar's on it is an obvious attempt at trying to make them more resilient to ganks. Regardless of the reasoning, SF is not good in DotA as he once was.


2. If he's not very good anymore, why is he still picked so often? Why is the top team at this tournament atm (ADC 09) using him nearly every game with a lothar's and winning? Why are the other teams in the tournament also using him? Why did the final match at Gamescom (apparently the biggest dota tournament so far) a couple of weeks ago have sf on the winning team? Also, took me 5 minutes to look through the first 5 pages of replays to find SF games and I can tell you there was literally like 1 krob pick in 50+ games and barely half as many necro picks as sf.Did you see who was banned? It's honestly impossible to tell you why and how unless I can look at team makeup and bans, and am I going to go through this process over something that has little relevance to HoN? No.


3. The sfs in all those replays are making BKB, sometimes before dagger/loth/boots as a first item. Ofc it's way better in HON but not sure how this makes any difference.I highly doubt it's before boots, unless you're talking about Travels, either way it's because games are much shorter post 6.60 patch.


I mean, your guide was okay, great by HoN standards, but is that particular post some sick, sarcasm that I failed to notice?

What about this are you not finding accurate?

[charlieeeh]

What about this are you not finding accurate?

1. SF is a top three gank/semi carry by any standards this version.
2. DP/Necro are both seeing far less play.
3. Morphling is not comparable to SF. Completely different roles.

Can't comment about your hon statements, but I'm sure some other nitpicker could.

I'm not commenting on the whole Lothars vs Dagger debate, particularly because I feel neither is necessary. I'm a bigger fan of Bottle -> BKB (optional) -> Manta. Manta is just plain ridiculous for AGIs atm.

[chiakoni]

If you've read anything I said, DotA has become gank heavy. Players buying lothar's on it is an obvious attempt at trying to make them more resilient to ganks. Regardless of the reasoning, SF is not good in DotA as he once was.If you watched any of those replays, you'd see the winning teams with loth are sure as **** not using it to be protected from ganks since the majority of the time they have good wards + bkb + ports sooner.


Did you see who was banned? It's honestly impossible to tell you why and how unless I can look at team makeup and bans, and am I going to go through this process over something that has little relevance to HoN? No.Click the links. Bans are listed for most of the games.


I highly doubt it's before boots, unless you're talking about Travels, either way it's because games are much shorter post 6.60 patch.Yes, travels. Besides for 2 really quick games, all those games are 50+min, some well over an hour.

Just not sure where you're coming from with your argument. There's no 'competitive hon scene' so uhh? If you're basing it on your experiences playing with good people, cool, I got some..you've played with zp right? He plays ss everytime it's in the pool. I've lost 1, maybe 2 games ever with him on ss out of 50+ at least. He always goes shroud. Anytime he sees ss with dagger he calls them bads for it. OMG WHO'S RIGHT?!
If you're basing it off dota uhh.. no. SF is a top pick, people get loth as often as blink, the sfs with loth in the last few big tourns are winning games, krob is bad & never picked, necro is picked at times but much less than sf, etc. tldr you're wrong on nearly everything you've said on the subject. Unlike whether key is better than shroud, all of this is fact you can confirm by analyzing recent 'high end comp play' for 30 min.

[Glorify1]

Alright, this guide has become spammed with excessive discussion on blink vs lothars. Honestly, you're not going to sway my decision in any manner, nor am I going to sway yours. I'm going to request to all of you that any further replies to my thread be kept clean of lothars vs blink talk. Both sides have presented arguements, and both sides are unwavering. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[aimlessgun]

Three times three equals nine.

This is fact.

Once more:

FACT.

Blink and Invisible are two very different ways to do basically the same things. In the end, it will always boil down to opinion.

My opinion is that people are allowed to have their own opinions. Your opinion is that blink dagger is better then shroud. I respect this opinion, I really do. But when you come along and say that your opinion that Shroud sucks is fact, I will no longer respect you.

You're just arguing for the sake of it at this point with no real substance. We're here to discuss what works better for HoN, not your right to an opinion.

Some things will work better more of the time than other things assuming certain conditions, in this case certain levels of competence from all players. Your right to an opinion has no bearing on this. Thanks for trolling.

[Vamprski]

You're just arguing for the sake of it at this point with no real substance. We're here to discuss what works better for HoN, not your right to an opinion.

Some things will work better more of the time than other things assuming certain conditions, in this case certain levels of competence from all players. Your right to an opinion has no bearing on this. Thanks for trolling.

At this point I really have no idea what I'm conveying over the Internet.

First off, I never intend to argue, but debate. To talk with peers to further knowledge and all that good crap.

Second, arguing without a point is for morons. It causes unnecessary stress with inevitably leads to me punching myself in the face.

Third, this has nothing to do with my right to an opinion influencing HoN. It has to do with the fact that people's opinions influence HoN.

Take a look at my point of view for a minute:
1. I disagree with a build.
2. I am shown how this build will work, but how mine won't.
3. I understand how this build works, yet I believe that mine will work also.
4. I am told repeatedly and aggressively that I am wrong.
5. I am then called a troll and dismissed.

Ignorance is not my favorite, gentlemen, as you can tell.

[Arakan1]

Can you please stop ruining a good thread, people shouldnt be forced to wad through all these **** posts to find real info.

[Decency]

You are a troll. You're probably Barfles, and if you're not, you're a close friend of his who might as well be posting his opinions for him. 21 of your 22 posts have been in a discussion started by Barfles where you back him up, and frequently the posts are within 5-10 minutes of each other. An IP compare would be grand.

It really makes a lot of sense, because you both seem equally braindead. You mistake eloquence for logic, and while you may have plenty of the former and the oh-so-common aloofness and "I've been slighted" attitude, you have none of the latter.

You wanted to debate? Here's how debate works: you give evidence supporting your position. You, being both a non-competitive player and a novice (2.66 denies per game, lol) are very incapable of giving any that might be relative. IzvergRzgvor (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=94498) understands the "evidence" part of debate, and is thus actually worth listening to.

You're not. So please, go away.

[Glorify1]

At this point I really have no idea what I'm conveying over the Internet.

First off, I never intend to argue, but debate. To talk with peers to further knowledge and all that good crap.

Second, arguing without a point is for morons. It causes unnecessary stress with inevitably leads to me punching myself in the face.

Third, this has nothing to do with my right to an opinion influencing HoN. It has to do with the fact that people's opinions influence HoN.

Take a look at my point of view for a minute:
1. I disagree with a build.
2. I am shown how this build will work, but how mine won't.
3. I understand how this build works, yet I believe that mine will work also.
4. I am told repeatedly and aggressively that I am wrong.
5. I am then called a troll and dismissed.

Ignorance is not my favorite, gentlemen, as you can tell.

I've asked nicely that you keep lothar/blink talk out of future replies, please follow these simple directions or I'll contact a moderator.

If you are hell bent on using lothars, then use it, or follow a different guide.

[charlieeeh]

Regardless, the discussion between you and I (and partly the euro guy) have nothing to do with Blink vs Lothars. If you care to back up your statement:


it's because SF isn't very good in DotA anymore. He's shifted from the meta, as a very fragile hero, he can't keep up with the gank meta. The meta of DotA has shifted to durable caster carries like DP and Necro, or to carries that can get away from ganks rather successfully like Morphling.

[Glorify1]

I justified my statement in the quote you've said. SF is not a top tier pick anymore, go ahead and run through some pro replays, SF is never banned. If he is banned, it's not because he's a top pick, but because the opposing team is comfortable with playing the hero. He's banned to take the team out of their element.

[_Archangel_]

@ the dude posting bullshit about fact, opinions, Portal Key and Shroud

Fact:

Shroud will not work in competitive play, Portal Key would.

Why?

Situations where you would want to use his Shroud are:

* During a push when they come to defend to cast his ultimate
* When they push, and you're defending to cast his ultimate
* Generally in a teamfight involving many heroes his ultimate
* When they gank and you're trying to escape
* During midgame, to initiate in a gank by positioning yourself to fire your nukes

In the first four situations, in competitive play, you can guarantee that there will be a Revelation Ward or Dust thrown down. When you try to Shroud and walk in to cast your ultimate, your opponents will stun and nuke you into the ground. When they gank you and you Shroud to run, your opponents will Dust, stun and nuke you into the ground.

The last situation is the only one where Shroud becomes viable - ganking with it when your opponent(s) are not expecting it. Opportunities for ganking lone heroes become rare late game, so the item decreases in effectiveness.

Portal Key suits all five of the above situations without being countered, with the exception of the fourth requiring you to avoid your opponents' attacks for three seconds.

[charlieeeh]

I justified my statement in the quote you've said. SF is not a top tier pick anymore, go ahead and run through some pro replays, SF is never banned. If he is banned, it's not because he's a top pick, but because the opposing team is comfortable with playing the hero. He's banned to take the team out of their element.
By your definition, potm is never banned in .59d, therefore she's fallen out of competitive play.

Picks should be judged strictly by useage, and quite frankly, SF is one of the most used semi-carries and dpsers in the game atm. I don't see how you can say otherwise.

@person above: You're doing it wrong if you're building SF around his ult. And believe me, people aren't going to be standing there when you blink in with your ejaculation animation. BKB and/or enigma/axe/tide/whatever will be needed if you plan on doing that.

SF is a powerhouse laner, great ganker, and late-game dpser providing aoe coverage. He's not an initiator.

[Nome]

Pretty decent discussion in this thread. Anyway, pretty great guide! Prem'd.

[Glorify1]

Potm can easily escape ganks, and is one of the strongest gankers in the game, thus she strives in a gank meta.

SF used to be picked quite often, around the 6.48b era, when he was indeed a powerhouse.

[charlieeeh]

Yes, she does all of that, but she isn't banned, which was your justification as to why SF isn't top tier.

.48b is widely regarded as the best version BECAUSE of all the ganking-oriented implementations. By definition alone, that would make SF a powerhouse ganker wouldn't it?

And just fyi, if you think 6.60 is gank meta... it's not. More turtling than ever, hence spectre is making a comeback. That's why so many competitive players are complaining about it reverting back to .52e.

[TBAG1]

hey op, your opinion on phase boots on him? things like should I ever get it, if so, when. I find that although it doesn't have the mobility of BoT, it's definently much cheaper and allows you to get your bkb and etc faster. only thing is that youll need a space for tps, but then maybe phase boots could be a quick fix for a game where you aren't doing as well(i'm sure we've all had some bad days).

great guide though, premium material imo. +1 x 9000 for dagger and bkb usage as I too am not fond of lothars.

[charlieeeh]

No, no, and no.

BoT.

Treads if you're asian.

[Shadowcamsy]

hey op, your opinion on phase boots on him? things like should I ever get it, if so, when. I find that although it doesn't have the mobility of BoT, it's definently much cheaper and allows you to get your bkb and etc faster. only thing is that youll need a space for tps, but then maybe phase boots could be a quick fix for a game where you aren't doing as well(i'm sure we've all had some bad days).

great guide though, premium material imo. +1 x 9000 for dagger and bkb usage as I too am not fond of lothars.

Phase boots are a no-no for Soulstealer simply because of the way he is built. His nukes cost 75 mana each and it costs 150 mana to nuke a wave that spawns every 30 seconds, this means by the time his boots have cooled-down he has used/needs to use 375 mana which needs to be replaced somehow, Post-haste is the best way for replacing his mana, not to mention when combined with portal key you can pull off all sorts of fancy stuff like teleporting in to a siege weapon, using shrunken head, then portal keying to an enemy hero to nuke them 3 times.

[Glorify1]

Yes, she does all of that, but she isn't banned, which was your justification as to why SF isn't top tier.

Incorrect, I justified him shifting out of the meta because he's food to gankers, having no hitpoints and no escape mechanism.



.48b is widely regarded as the best version BECAUSE of all the ganking-oriented implementations. By definition alone, that would make SF a powerhouse ganker wouldn't it?

Ganking was much harder in 48b, which is why you could run rice heroes like SF and BB.



And just fyi, if you think 6.60 is gank meta... it's not. More turtling than ever, hence spectre is making a comeback. That's why so many competitive players are complaining about it reverting back to .52e.

Spectre is a gank hero.


hey op, your opinion on phase boots on him? things like should I ever get it, if so, when. I find that although it doesn't have the mobility of BoT, it's definently much cheaper and allows you to get your bkb and etc faster. only thing is that youll need a space for tps, but then maybe phase boots could be a quick fix for a game where you aren't doing as well(i'm sure we've all had some bad days).

great guide though, premium material imo. +1 x 9000 for dagger and bkb usage as I too am not fond of lothars.

Worst of any of the boots. Treads provide significant boost in DPS and survivability, but takes away from your map control. Phase boots does nothing for him.

[charlieeeh]

Incorrect, I justified him shifting out of the meta because he's food to gankers, having no hitpoints and no escape mechanism.A good sf never stays in lane long, he doesn't have to, he can farm a wave in a second. He's usually the ganker, not the gankee. SF fits into any non-turtling meta.

Oh and, no, you justified it through him not getting banned. Word for word: "I justified my statement in the quote you've said. SF is not a top tier pick anymore, go ahead and run through some pro replays, SF is never banned."


Ganking was much harder in 48b, which is why you could run rice heroes like SF and BB.Are you forgetting VP's gank style rolling through every tournament of ever?

.48b bb was stupidly fat though.


Spectre is a gank hero.He can gank, but he's relagated to late-game carry more times than not. Having an ult that lets him auto-assist doesn't make him a gank hero.

Game length should tell you all you need to know though.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, .48b was heralded BECAUSE of Virtus.Pro. vigoss + smile + jolie vs MYM matchups are legendary. The ganking style of these two teams just etched it in stone.

[Shadowcamsy]

On a second run through reading your guide I've come to some queries:

1) How long does the Soul burst debuff last for? I think its about 4 seconds but I don't know the exact figures, would be handy to know. I'm assuming it stacks with Andromeda's attack damage decrease as well.

2) Is denying the rune with the crow still possible? I swear I've read somewhere that they removed courier interaction with runes/items, giving the crow no mana pool or something.

Also you have a few mentions of Zues instead of Thunderbringer in there :P Fantastic guide but.

[nakke]

do you replace the "D-F-G" keys with something else? i raelly cant handle using q-w-e-r for items / spells , and use dfg for the nuke. its really hard i missclick all the time. Wish i could use him better cause he is awesome

[Glorify1]

it's because SF isn't very good in DotA anymore. He's shifted from the meta, as a very fragile hero, he can't keep up with the gank meta. The meta of DotA has shifted to durable caster carries like DP and Necro, or to carries that can get away from ganks rather successfully like Morphling.

This is the quote I said justified why SF has shifted from the meta.


He can gank, but he's relagated to late-game carry more times than not. Having an ult that lets him auto-assist doesn't make him a gank hero.

Game length should tell you all you need to know though.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, .48b was heralded BECAUSE of Virtus.Pro. vigoss + smile + jolie vs MYM matchups are legendary. The ganking style of these two teams just etched it in stone.

He's counter gank, able to join a fight from anywhere, which is why he was so strong and required 5-6 subsequent nerfs.

[class]

lmfao i love how terrible players with ~60ck/1-4 denies a game are talking shut up you don't deserve an opinion

[charlieeeh]

This is the quote I said justified why SF has shifted from the meta.



He's counter gank, able to join a fight from anywhere, which is why he was so strong and required 5-6 subsequent nerfs.
You're dodging my points. SF is picked far more often than dp/necro.

Meta has shifted into "pick whatever's most imba" rather than strat/synergy picks.

And none of what you're saying refutes anything I'm saying about sf.

[Glorify1]

SF is rarely picked, out of the 10 random games I just looked at he was chosen once.

[Eldu]

<3 this guide

[Mephs]

From playing SS a lot lately, I have to agree that blink > lothar.

Lothar is only as good as the other team is bad. Okay, so you want to get a good burst off in a team fight? Not going to happen. With aoe's going off left and right, very likely the fact that Zeus can reveal you as you run in to ult, and the fact you are susceptible to all these AOEs on the way in is very dangerous.

I.E. the few games I tried lothars the other team had heroes like Lego, Behemoth, Magmus etc. If I rushed in, I was hit by taunts, aoe stuns, and all that nonsense, whereas when I have a blink dagger, 99/100 times I can gib one or two people, maybe 3 if we have a solid disabler to hold them in place.

Then there is that whole problem of wards and dust. Any semi-mediocre team that realizes I'm using a lothar will get some, and make the whole purchase worthless. Unless you're terrible or make a lot of mistakes, a blink is easy to farm as long as you just avoid team fights and do nothing but farm.

Then the whole thing about Steamboots vs. BoT. The BoT give you an extra item slot whereas with Steamboots I always find myself having to buy TPs. Over the course of a longer game you end up paying more for TPs than you would for the BoT recipe (2200~) to get around faster and farm more efficiently, as well as escape ganks. Also, steamboots still will run you roughly 1450 (700 less than the BoT), and TPs are only useful for preventing BD attempts late game as you wont have any towers worth a damn left unless you're steamrolling the other team. In that respect, BoT trump TP tenfold.

So you only lose 10 agi and some attack speed, which you wont need that early in the game anyway as most of your damage will be done by blinkulting and then DH nuking. After that you typically run away or clean up depending on how much damage you actually pull off. If you flub it up you're better off running because SS is squishy, too squishy to prolong auto attack fighting for a long period of time.

Generally I feel SS is a VERY strong pick if you're well practiced with him. One of the strongest mid solo'ers and probably the only one able to stand up to Zeus reliably 1v1, one of the fastest farmers, and one of the easiest to end a game early with.

He suffers late game since he's still squishy, his nukes fall out significantly in power as the opponent team starts to get more hp, and by that time other than his ult you are forced to build for auto attack. The only problem being that he's fairly easy for an opposing carry to kill by now. Against tanks he's even more useless as his nukes won't really turn them away, especially if they build a hood. Just try and kill Zephyr as Soulstealer, it will be incredibly frustrating as Radiance + cyclones = good luck blinking.

But for early game, you want to shut the other team down as hard as you can, and you will be able to very easily as SS if you play him aggressively when called for, and then defensively any other time. He's a great pick if your team has at least one or two aoe stun/disables (i.e. Magmus, Legionnaire, Tempest), he's not so great of a pick if the opponent team has two or more hard tank STR heroes however.

[PoopyDesires]

Most of you are underestimating Shroud. Sure invisibility can be countered easily, yet it's still a nice DPS boost, 20% MS, unit-walking, and backstab damage. Sure, Enhanced Marchers on steroids. + Invisibility.

Shroud and Blink are both very viable options, I've tried both and they both work great, I just like Shroud due to personal play style even though I could probably do the same with Blink.

The core item here, which I didn't use before but now consider absolutely neccesary is the Shrunken Head due to the massive survivability it gives. Together with both Blink and Shroud, you still have fantastic survivability as the AoE that is usually used to actually do the damage rather then single-target focus can easily be negated, and both items still work as escape mechanisms, using the Shrunken Head to your advantage to easily escape.

I see your points, and will finally let this go just as you already have, I just want you to know that you're really exaggerating Shroud's "uselessness"

Thank you ;]

[Mephs]

you're really exaggerating Shroud's "uselessness"

Its usefulness depends on the context.

Useful against pub teams yes, it can work sometimes.

The way I see it blink is a 99% guaranteed gib every time, and will be a more reliable escape method, whereas Shroud assumes the enemy team is full of bads or you're initiating for some reason. If you aren't initiating a team fight, I don't think you'll get close enough into the opposing team to get an ult off without getting aoe stunned, taking some kind of damage, or otherwise.

God help you if mag is on their team, IE your team runs in, gets ult'd/stunned and you're moving like a snail or getting chain stunned just to get close enough to kill something, assuming you dont die on the way in.

Either way BKB is useful for either preference. I just cry whenever I see another person playing SS and going lothar over blink, because most of the time they try to ult and get raped before they can even get it off.

[PoopyDesires]

^

Sounds to me like you're seeing SS with Lothar's who get too cocky and rather undermining the item.

Sure you can blink in and get an easy gib, but you can do the same thing too if you just let your initiator go in first. I don't even get Lothar's just for the invisibility, the slight DPS boost is helpful as well for when comboed with a shieldbreaker and Dread its damage goes way up.

Overall they both have very different strengths and weaknesses, as I find Lothar's more reliable for escaping seeing as you can't get hit by a DoT and have the effect ruined, and it gives a useful scouting factor as well as having it's own merits in juking.

It seems to me as I said before you're just being exposed to SSes who get overconfident with their Shroud.

Anyways, if they have mag or any heavy nuker/stunner/disabler/slower on their team, Shrunken Head + Shroud is a VERY powerful combo.

[Vamprski]

You are a troll. You're probably Barfles, and if you're not, you're a close friend of his who might as well be posting his opinions for him.

This is half-true. He's sitting right next to me, I'm in no way surprised that we post so close together. However, I am not posting his opinions. I'm not a sheep, good sir.

For some reason, it's set in everybody's brains that I'm fighting for Shroud in a Shroud vs. Blink Key fight. This is by no means the case. In fact, I started friggen' using Port Key on Slither because of this thread.

The one and only thing I'm fighting for is the fact that Port Key and Shroud are both viable items, each having their pros and cons. I have seen time and time again that Shroud would be countered by wards and eyes, which is completely true.

However, it seems that everyone is disregarding Port Keys weaknesses. If you get hit by a single DoT, you're dead. Unless you have a natural escape mechanism (why would you even get a Port Key or Shroud then?), there is literally no way to get away, except for right clicking on your base and crossing your fingers.

Now, say you get hit by a DoT while your chaser has an eye. Shroud would be superior in this situation due to the 20% movement speed and unitwalking, regardless of said DoT and eye.

I am not saying one is better than the other. I am saying that I prefer Shroud on SS, and as of yesterday, I prefer Port Key on Slither.

Remember: every item has it's ups and downs. No item is bad, as each and every single one has it uses. Even the GG branch gives you early game superiority (if not minorly), and is the cheapest item in the game. The Doombringer gives a massive, massive amount of damage for a relatively low cost, yet if you die, you're screwed. The Port Key is incredibly cheap, and is an above average initiator, yet because of the cooldown and 3 second rule is risky to use as an escape. Assassin's Shroud is relatively reliable for escapes: it makes you faster, gives you unitwalking, and at the very least gives you pseudo-invisibility (think Mortred). Plus, the backstab damage makes it an OK initiator early game. However, it is a poor initiator against alert opponents and costs a hefty sum.

[charlieeeh]

SF is rarely picked, out of the 10 random games I just looked at he was chosen once.
His frequency of use is up there with the dazzles, dark seers, slardars, probably in about 1/5-1/3 of games. Given the said pool of 50-60 playable heroes, I'd say that's pretty up there.


No item is bad, as each and every single one has it uses. Even the GG branch gives you early game superiority (if not minorly), and is the cheapest item in the game.Wrong. And using branch as an example of a "bad" item shows your inexperience.

Items are just like heroes, there are bad, and there are good. As much as you hate to believe it, this is reality. Bad (or inferior, rather) items include: sny (jack of all trades, master of none), linkens (5k+ for 15 stats and a situational spell block? no ty), ghoststaff (novelty), mkb (because voids with bfly are simply non-existent), arcane ring (every hero that can benefit from it is better off with bottle). I'm on the fence with Satanic/Mjolnir.

@Mephs: You're definitely using Lothars wrong if you're just substituting it for Blink. You're definitely playing sf wrong if you're initiating battles.

[PoopyDesires]

arcane ring (every hero that can benefit from it is better off with bottle).

Bottle x 6 = 3000
Arcane Ring = 1700

Arcane Ring is not so you can get lots of mana for yourself, Arcane Ring is so that your entire team has a great mana pool, if not just your lane mate.

[charlieeeh]

Arcane Ring + Mek = 4000.

And think about which heroes will benefit the most; top contenders are ES, Zeus, and Tiny. You're an idiot if you get Arcane on these.

[Vamprski]

Wrong. And using branch as an example of a "bad" item shows your inexperience.

Items are just like heroes, there are bad, and there are good. As much as you hate to believe it, this is reality. Bad (or inferior, rather) items include: sny (jack of all trades, master of none), linkens (5k+ for 15 stats and a situational spell block? no ty), ghoststaff (novelty), mkb (because voids with bfly are simply non-existent), arcane ring (every hero that can benefit from it is better off with bottle). I'm on the fence with Satanic/Mjolnir.

@Mephs: You're definitely using Lothars wrong if you're just substituting it for Blink. You're definitely playing sf wrong if you're initiating battles.

I didn't say branch was bad. I said the exact opposite. Read carefully next time.

Sure there are good items and bad items. But for specific heroes. I don't see how an SnY could possibly be bad on a chaser. It practically gives them exactly what they need: The damage boost, the health boost, the IAS boost, the MS boost, the 16% to maim. You are right. This item is bad. If you got it on Thunder Bringer, or maybe Demented Shaman. Astrolabe is a good item, right? Maybe we should get it on War Beast then?

Pros and cons. Every hero, every item, every map, every game, every person has them. Just because an item is situational or difficult to use correctly does not make it a bad item.

[charlieeeh]

I didn't say branch was bad. I said the exact opposite. Read carefully next time.You assumed people thought branch was bad, which is why you're trying to prove the opposite. You're assumption was wrong, therefore you were wrong.

Sny is bad on a chaser, because if said chaser needed sny, he's not a chaser.

There are pros and cons to every hero and every item, but there exists such a thing as a "bad" item and a "bad" hero.

[Vamprski]

You assumed people thought branch was bad, which is why you're trying to prove the opposite. You're assumption was wrong, therefore you were wrong.

Sny is bad on a chaser, because if said chaser needed sny, he's not a chaser.

There are pros and cons to every hero and every item, but there exists such a thing as a "bad" item and a "bad" hero.

No, I did not. I used the branch as an exmaple because it is the single-most cheapest item in the game (besides consumables), and by conventional standards, the weakest.

However, the price on this puppy balances it out. You can easily fill the rest of your inventory up with these with basically no consequences.

And if you're so set on there being "bad" items and heroes, can you please tell me what makes an item or hero "bad"?

[JewishFury]

Just wondering why pro players need pro guides to teach them to play

[PoopyDesires]

Just wondering why pro players need pro guides to teach them to play

Have my babies.

Scratch that, I'll have your's.

[Ozzzzz]

arcane ring can be useful for enigma/tempest if you're going support with mekansm as well.

[charlieeeh]

No, I did not. I used the branch as an exmaple because it is the single-most cheapest item in the game (besides consumables), and by conventional standards, the weakest.

However, the price on this puppy balances it out. You can easily fill the rest of your inventory up with these with basically no consequences.

And if you're so set on there being "bad" items and heroes, can you please tell me what makes an item or hero "bad"?
Branch is probably one of the best items in the game, and therefore a poor example for your argument. Let's leave it at that, poor argument is better than false argument.

Common sense makes an item/hero bad. I don't see why there's a set list of standards.

In general, dpsing **** is bad, single target **** is bad, weak early game is bad, etc.

Arcane ring is horrible, quit trying to justify it. It's a laning item that can't be attained during the laning phase. That's flawed and "bad".

[Fenald]

Just wondering why pro players need pro guides to teach them to play
Just wondering do you improve by playing badly or by trying to play well.

[Sai]

How do you beat a blood hunter with SS? >:3

LOL IM SO FUNNY

[PoopyDesires]

Branch is probably one of the best items in the game, and therefore a poor example for your argument. Let's leave it at that, poor argument is better than false argument.

Common sense makes an item/hero bad. I don't see why there's a set list of standards.

In general, dpsing **** is bad, single target **** is bad, weak early game is bad, etc.

Arcane ring is horrible, quit trying to justify it. It's a laning item that can't be attained during the laning phase. That's flawed and "bad".

ur bad

See I can do it too!

[charlieeeh]

ur bad

See I can do it too!
Why respond to something not directed at you? I'm sure he's grown up enough to handle himself.

Wasn't it already confirmed that you have no say in this thread after the first 20 posts of bullshit?

And if that's all you got from my post, then make that 21 posts.

[PoopyDesires]

I have no say in a thread that started the initial debate when I -gasp- spoke out against everyone doing the exact thing some dude says?

Serious deja vu.

[charlieeeh]

Which ended with: you have no experience with organized play and are struggling to keep up in pubs, therefore your opinions about what goes on and what's good is as credible as... well... nothing.

[PoopyDesires]

Quote please.

[charlieeeh]

I don't think you need a quote; open up HoN and check your own stats.

[PoopyDesires]

Pretty average.

Edit: We're spamming this thread with pointless off-topic ramble. If you wish to continue this conversation PM me.

[charlieeeh]

44 apm is not "average", it's pretty much afking.

This isn't a Guide to average level play. Quit dodging.

[JewishFury]

Just wondering do you improve by playing badly or by trying to play well.

I improve by learning by my mistakes and playing games alot. I doubt people jump into games and are ****ing amazing at games. I really doubt people start out in leagues and need to know how to build items or know what skills do.

[Vamprski]

I improve by learning by my mistakes and playing games alot. I doubt people jump into games and are ****ing amazing at games. I really doubt people start out in leagues and need to know how to build items or know what skills do.

I'm friending you now.

[Fenald]

I improve by learning by my mistakes and playing games alot. I doubt people jump into games and are ****ing amazing at games. I really doubt people start out in leagues and need to know how to build items or know what skills do.
Maybe if you learned by reading what you should be doing and trying it you wouldn't be playing so badly.

[PoopyDesires]

Learning by doing tends to work better than learning by reading.

[JewishFury]

Maybe if you learned by reading what you should be doing and trying it you wouldn't be playing so badly.

I'm ok with playing bad. I never played DOTA and picked this game up maybe a month ago. I don't go preaching to everyone that I'm pro. But if you really have to attack me just because I've been playing for a month. Whatever makes you happy. I don't expect to be on a competitive level one month in.

[Glorify1]

Just wondering why pro players need pro guides to teach them to play

This is meant to introduce newer players(like the lothar's loving players who can't seem to cope with it being a bad item) into competitive play.


Learning by doing tends to work better than learning by reading. This is incorrect. If you have absolutely no clue on how to play at all, you won't learn a thing.


Most of you are underestimating Shroud. Sure invisibility can be countered easily, yet it's still a nice DPS boost, 20% MS, unit-walking, and backstab damage.

These are all completely worthless when a team dies after you ult and raze them with another initiator. But wait, you'd never get your ult off with lothars, so I can see why you'd need the increase in DPS.

[charlieeeh]

Here's some interesting data.

Total games from 9/1 to 9/8: 62

Times picked

SF - 16

Other common picks:

Morph - 21
Zeus - 33
Potm - 50
Pirate - 19
Viper - 20
Lion - 28
DP - 2
Necro - 6
CM - 34
Dazzle - 10
SK - 32
Puck - 21
Brood - 6
Visage - 4
Warlock - 18
Beast - 5
Slardar - 13
Tide - 11
DS - 17
Lina - 6
Sven - 2
Venge - 8
Windrunner - 4 (surprise)
Axe - 4
Silencer - 3
Tinker - 4

source: dota.replays.net

Ignoring the obvious autobans: tc, bat, enigma, chen, clock, enchant, na, rhasta, bane, undying

I'd say SF is definitely up there.

EDIT: Abaddon too.

[Fu__plate]

Would someone be able to put a full game on youtube of them playing as soul?

Sort of like Nome's Magmus vod.

[Glorify1]

Well, I've been looking to do it, but I can't seem to get a good -rd game that is high level enough to be worth doing it.


Potm - 50
SF - 16
Potm strives in a gank meta, SF doesn't.


CM - 34This surprises me, thought they nerfed her to oblivion.




Troll- 1
Puck- 6
DP- 1
QoP- 1
Tiny- 1
WD- 1
Seeker- 2
Crix- 6
Lich- 1
Alch- 2
Brood- 1
CM- 7
Morph- 6
Seer- 3
ES- 4
Chen- 3
Lion- 7
Potm- 13
Axe- 1
Zeus- 7
Chantress- 5
Lock- 5
Tide- 4
BB- 3
Sven- 3
Bane- 9
Kunk- 1
Windrunner- 2
Slar- 5
Sniper- 3
Clockwerk- 6
Dazzle- 3
Panda- 1
TC- 2
PL- 1
Lesh- 1
Sking- 2
Nigma- 1
Lycan- 2
Omni- 1
Jugg- 2
Necro- 2
Rhasta- 1
Batrider- 2
Lina- 1
Meepo- 1
NA- 1
SF- 1
LoA- 1
Visage- 1
Undying- 1
Viper- 1

Last 15 games currently on GosuGamers, so out of 150 heroes, SF was only chosen once.

In this game, he did not solo mid and was babysat by an NA, regardless he lost. SF being babysat? I wonder why, perhaps because he can't keep up with a gank meta.

[class]

seriously though, sf model shits all over ss

AESTHETIC MATTERS

[charlieeeh]

I thought a larger pool of data would be better. Slardar hasn't been used at ALL 8/23-8/30, a span of of 50 games.

http://dota.replays.net/DotaList.aspx?PageNo=3
Between EG vs DoP and Nt vs Ksjj, sf was used in 8 out of 15 games.

Small samples are biased, larger ones are more accurate. It'd be great if we could compile every game starting 1-2 weeks after 6.60 update.

And gank meta? Please. Far more ganks in even .59d. Games averaging 60 mins more often than before, few 1:1 kill:time ratio games nowadays. Occasionally you get a two roamer game and it's auto 10/10. Potm hasn't roamed since god knows how long, only semi-carry now.
http://www.fragster.de/artikel/8111/dota-interview-with-razerkuroky-the-strategic-part-of-dota-is-practically-dead_dota/

EDIT: Compiled more comprehensive data.

sf - 50

morph - 80
pirate - 60
viper - 80
ds - 65
warlock 65

dazzle - 35
spectre - 30
venge - 35
tide - 30
slardar - 20
dp - 15
axe - 20
beast - 20
brood - 25
visage - 25
bb - 20
necro - 15
lina - 15

Total games from 8/15 - today: 230

Note: Margin of error +-2 games, aka nearest 5. I also excluded all heroes that were used in over 90 games, and all heroes under 15. Should be clear who these are.

Conclusion: I'd say SF is right there on the fence of being top pick, too overused to be a situational pick (lion, bane, puck, potm etc are staples).

[Glorify1]

Between EG vs DoP and Nt vs Ksjj, sf was used in 8 out of 15 games. Certain teams use him, others won't touch him. Situational.

To be honest though, I haven't touched DotA since 6.60 nor kept up with it competitively. I can see how he's made a come back with Pipe turtle. I'd rather see .48b Blink than some randy pipe bullshit.

[charlieeeh]

Certain teams use him, others won't touch him. Situational.

To be honest though, I haven't touched DotA since 6.60 nor kept up with it competitively. I can see how he's made a come back with Pipe turtle. I'd rather see .48b Blink than some randy pipe bullshit.
Exactly. The point of that is 15 games is a poor sample size. When factoring about 250 games, SF is used is approximately a quarter of those games. That's plenty.

And yeah, 6.60 is not gank oriented. I totally agree to heart/pipe nerf. But old dagger is too much.

EDIT: And look: http://dota.replays.net/doc/cn/2009-9-10/12525550496697544292.html
10 SF's in one game. :p

[evotech]

SHould link in guide :)

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=209747#post209747

Soul stealer auto mod to QWE :D makes soulstealer a whole lot easier imo

[charlieeeh]

Most pros use zxc.

[evotech]

why? i dont see why you would do that when you can use QWE

[Mephs]

I don't see how your key mappings will make you better at Soulstealer.



These are all completely worthless when a team dies after you ult and raze them with another initiator. But wait, you'd never get your ult off with lothars, so I can see why you'd need the increase in DPS.

This is exactly how I see it. I've played SS with blink and with lothar and the blink seems worlds more useful in that it can only be countered by very few things (i.e. zeus ult) and even then they have to be explicitly timed correctly as the team rushes in to kill you before you can blink away (unlikely!), whereas using Lothar's as an escape = fail if they have dust, = fail if they have pestilence, or wards, or a gem, or arachna, the list goes on. Blink gets you out of the fire before you even smell the smoke. If you're getting ganked with a blink handy then you're doing something wrong or the other team had an invis'd electrician :P

Also, the portal key is worlds more valuable for chasing. You blink right behind someone, D F G in a straight line most of the time they're dead by the 2nd nuke anyway. You CANNOT get that same quality out of a lothar's.

[PoopyDesires]

This is meant to introduce newer players(like the lothar's loving players who can't seem to cope with it being a bad item) into competitive play.

This is incorrect. If you have absolutely no clue on how to play at all, you won't learn a thing.


These are all completely worthless when a team dies after you ult and raze them with another initiator. But wait, you'd never get your ult off with lothars, so I can see why you'd need the increase in DPS.

Now you're flat-out flaming me and have yet to give any good reason for why "Lothar's is bad" other than "Lothar's is bad and if you use Lothar's you will suck" with your only reason to back up that statement being the former statement of "Lothar's is bad"

[Decency]

any good reason for why "Lothar's is bad"


@ the dude posting bullshit about fact, opinions, Portal Key and Shroud

Fact:

Shroud will not work in competitive play, Portal Key would.

Why?

Situations where you would want to use his Shroud are:

* During a push when they come to defend to cast his ultimate
* When they push, and you're defending to cast his ultimate
* Generally in a teamfight involving many heroes his ultimate
* When they gank and you're trying to escape
* During midgame, to initiate in a gank by positioning yourself to fire your nukes

In the first four situations, in competitive play, you can guarantee that there will be a Revelation Ward or Dust thrown down. When you try to Shroud and walk in to cast your ultimate, your opponents will stun and nuke you into the ground. When they gank you and you Shroud to run, your opponents will Dust, stun and nuke you into the ground.

The last situation is the only one where Shroud becomes viable - ganking with it when your opponent(s) are not expecting it. Opportunities for ganking lone heroes become rare late game, so the item decreases in effectiveness.

Portal Key suits all five of the above situations without being countered, with the exception of the fourth requiring you to avoid your opponents' attacks for three seconds.
Can a mod please ban Barfles (aka Vamprski)? I've never seen so much useless trolling from one person.

[charlieeeh]

But wait, you'd never get your ult off with lotharsJust thought I'd point out that his ult has 1350 range. You can pretty much stand anywhere and hit them; you can be naked and you'd still "get your ult off". But if you mean, you won't be in the middle of things to "maximize" your ult's damage, I can't argue that. Then again, SF doesn't belong in the middle of things.

I'm on the side that believes SF shouldn't be in the middle in the first place. If you blink in (assuming you don't have axe/enigma/magnataur/whatever), chances are, you'll won't hit anyone with more than 1 line (2 if they're stupidly close or moving in some obscene manner). You'll get the same result standing on the outside and just ulting from there, hitting everyone with 1 line. You'll survive the ordeal and make use of your aura, dps, and triple nukes that way. You don't see potm leaping into the middle of a battle just so she can land a perfect starfall.

BKB <-> Manta is the future. hyhy stopped using blink in his recent sf games, if that's any indication. Blink/Lothars are both unnecessary (except in the lineups you're teaming with enigma/axe/whatever), building sf around his ult is building axe around his. It's wrong.

[PoopyDesires]

Everybody with the same opinion must be the same person, *******.

By the way, for some reason that post is assuming that the dude with Lothar's is an idiot who thinks he's an initiating tank. Just because somebody has a different opinion than you doesn't make them a troll. OMG HE USED SHORUUUDD HE IS FUKN NUBE. No.

I'm not arguing that portal key sucks, I'm arguing that Shroud doesn't.

For the record, I do incredibly approve of BKB if you're against a team with decent AoE, which basically means I incredibly approve of BKB if you're against a vaguely organized team that talked slightly before picking.

The above posts suggestion of BKB/Manta sounds absolutely brilliant, will definitely try that.

[class]

shut up

[PoopyDesires]

Manta worked pretty well actually. Didn't get my ult off as well as with a Portal Key or Shroud, but the DPS, Manaburn and health was great. Was really funny since someone picked Magebane on my team.

[charlieeeh]

Ult this, ult that. SS isn't ult reliant. It's nice to have, but not something to build around. Again, SS without ult will still see play. SS without demon hand will not.

[ElementUser]

Just to be more professional, you should read through your guide & change all the DotA references to HoN ones. A premium guide should already have this done anyway.

Also uh, you should probably put an assumption somewhere in the beginning of the thread that states you're playing on Legion (if you're playing on Hellbourne, top/bottom will be flipped around & some players might be confused and such). Goes for the rest of your guides too, please! It'll help reduce the ambiguity

Oh and nice videos :O.

P.S. If you cast your ultimate & cancel it via S/movement command/enemy interruption via stun/disable, will the skill be put in cooldown? I know it doesn't go on cooldown in DotA

[JewishFury]

Nice video. I always like watching videos of higher level play.

[Glorify1]

Just to be more professional, you should read through your guide & change all the DotA references to HoN ones. A premium guide should already have this done anyway.

Also uh, you should probably put an assumption somewhere in the beginning of the thread that states you're playing on Legion (if you're playing on Hellbourne, top/bottom will be flipped around & some players might be confused and such). Goes for the rest of your guides too, please! It'll help reduce the ambiguity

Oh and nice videos :O.

P.S. If you cast your ultimate & cancel it via S/movement command/enemy interruption via stun/disable, will the skill be put in cooldown? I know it doesn't go on cooldown in DotA

If I'm feeling exceptionally bored I will change the names.

I'm not sure, but if you hit blink and ult at the same time ult goes off, as shown when I ****ed up.

SS would never see play without his ult, it's all of his midgame, this is enough to make me disregard just about anything further that you say.

[CuddleTime]

P.S. If you cast your ultimate & cancel it via S/movement command/enemy interruption via stun/disable, will the skill be put in cooldown? I know it doesn't go on cooldown in DotA

No, it doesn't go into cooldown if you press S to interrupt.

[charlieeeh]

SS would never see play without his ult, it's all of his midgame, this is enough to make me disregard just about anything further that you say.
Then you're playing him wrong. And this guide can't be about high level play.

Also, take dread earlier. It should be maxed by 14-15.

[Glorify1]

Oh yes, I suppose I'll listen to someone who can't stay above 1500 PSR in a game where bad players riddle the field.

[class]

Oh yes, I suppose I'll listen to someone who can't stay above 1500 PSR in a game where bad players riddle the field.

^__________^

[charlieeeh]

Stats again? Isn't shortcake still asshurt from the raping I gave him last time?

[Glorify1]

As much as stats are meaningless, you really can't get over 1500? You play in EM games, you have no assists and a high KDR. Looks like you play scout to me. You act as though you personally know every pro player in the game, but I highly doubt you've even played in anything other than pubs or pickup leagues.

[class]

Stats again? Isn't shortcake still asshurt from the raping I gave him last time?

yeah, what raping

isn't it funny that you're the type of person that reads forums and regurgitates what others say and only has dreams of being good yet will always be a pathetically bad player who tries to pretend he's good and an authority on high end competition

[Fu__plate]

Just thought I'd point out that his ult has 1350 range. You can pretty much stand anywhere and hit them; you can be naked and you'd still "get your ult off". But if you mean, you won't be in the middle of things to "maximize" your ult's damage, I can't argue that. Then again, SF doesn't belong in the middle of things.

I'm on the side that believes SF shouldn't be in the middle in the first place. If you blink in (assuming you don't have axe/enigma/magnataur/whatever), chances are, you'll won't hit anyone with more than 1 line (2 if they're stupidly close or moving in some obscene manner). You'll get the same result standing on the outside and just ulting from there, hitting everyone with 1 line. You'll survive the ordeal and make use of your aura, dps, and triple nukes that way. You don't see potm leaping into the middle of a battle just so she can land a perfect starfall.

BKB <-> Manta is the future. hyhy stopped using blink in his recent sf games, if that's any indication. Blink/Lothars are both unnecessary (except in the lineups you're teaming with enigma/axe/whatever), building sf around his ult is building axe around his. It's wrong.
Can you explain why BKB+Manta is good (for a HoN/DoTA noob like me :P)?

Would it be better for me to get portal key -> nullfire -> geometers
OR portal key(/shroud) -> wingbow? Or would it depend on the situation?

[Glorify1]

I would not suggest manta on this hero at all. DotA uses a new Manta, that isn't built around dblade.

[charlieeeh]

yeah, what raping

isn't it funny that you're the type of person that reads forums and regurgitates what others say and only has dreams of being good yet will always be a pathetically bad player who tries to pretend he's good and an authority on high end competition
I'm just going to let the irony sink in here.

[class]

idk seems pretty hard to have less psr than what you start at.

[jsat]

So i just bothered to check if any hon guides out there are even near to the quality of dota guides and i'm surprised in a good way, excellent work with this guide.

I would like to comment on steamboots for a second, bot and dagger have a huge amount of synergy and do in fact as you point out allow you to push side lanes by yourself when coupled with good map awareness and fast fingers (except against madman and similar for the most bit) and i can see your huge preference for them. That said remstar, considered to be one of the best sf players around always goes treads and 0 bracers/etc and it has always worked for him. and no dagger. I actually play the same build you do but i would be hesitant to claim it is the only viable build.

EDIT: oh i just noted your skill build, of the infinity or so replays i have watched the only small variability i have noticed is 1 level of stat level ten or no, every other player has gone for dread to 4 by 15. You must play a very defensive sf based entirely around a good ult and a couple nukes being enough for the entire midgame. This may work for you, however -5 armor takes a strength hero from a typical 4-10 (phase/no phase) to 0-5, which is significant if you have someone attempting a few smacks. Not dieing in the midgame is very important though, and if you forgo treads and get dagger it is a tougher call if it will be better.

[ElementUser]

I followed this guide & did very well, too bad our team lost because our main initiator (Pestilence - yeah it was -sd so we didn't have the imba initiators) dropped :(. Which also left us short on disables

[ajz]

this thread/guide is so derailed by some people *cough*blarfles*cough*

i also think shortcake is a very angry man. but his points are all valid.

good guide
(http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=30167)

[class]

i'm not angry :<

[PoopyDesires]

New Manta is out.

Try it.

[GuardianG]

Thanks Glorify! Read the guide and watched the video. In my 2nd game ever as Soulstealer I went 21/3/18 with 100 more creep kills then the next closest player. I was able to farm my Portal Key and BoT in well under 20 minutes. I wasn't able to use my crow as effectively as you for runes and what not, but that'll come with more practice.

I definitely need to rebind QWE for him as you suggested... I accidentally cast his ult on 3 separate occasions when farming :(

Thanks again!

[SutekiCrazy]

i find this quite helpfull :) thanks mate

[Testknight]

Error spotted:
"with the additional of before-mentioned nukes" should be
"with the ADDITION of before-mentioned nukes"

But the grammar is still a bit spotty anyways. Oh well.

And on a different note, this guide has really matured and has turned out amazing.

[Fu__plate]

Might need some updates because of all the changes.

I really wouldn't take behe heart as a luxury item now, it seems like geometer's or a level 2 null blade would be much better. Or even skadi's.

[JustinSynth]

shut up
Good one.

[Firetongue]

I disagree at the midgame item build for the ss, i would much rather go for Assasins shroud and enhanced marchers instead of portal key and postal haste. I guess that's just me but i've tried this build and it was less effective for me than my usual.

[SockMonkeh]

I played 3 games with this guide and we won all of them!

[dreamex]

I disagree at the midgame item build for the ss, i would much rather go for Assasins shroud and enhanced marchers instead of portal key and postal haste. I guess that's just me but i've tried this build and it was less effective for me than my usual.

Shroud and Marchers probably work better in pubs where no one has dust/wards when they push and you never need to reverse ganks or defend towers or capitalize on freefarm opportunities.

Key + Post Haste are incredibly important to Soul Stealer in more competitive level games.

[HatTrick]

I find it is extremely easy to farm these two items in pubs, and makes soul so easy and useful to play. Very intimidating hero with a great team presense. Nothing funner than popping ult on a solo scout who thought he had an easy kill!

Anyone else go for Charged Hammer after core build? I cast it's buff on our fastest carry like madman or predator, it's probably my favorite item on him

[audr3y]

Super guide, gave me a few a good ideas. I'm not in total agreement with skillbuild etc, but u have valid arguments and therefore is worth a try:) Glad this got bumped to premium; however, it's a massive textwall and u kinda repeat urself to make sure that everyone gets everything, twice. I'm not close to being experianced, but hell, i got it the first time fs :p!

[Glorify1]

Super guide, gave me a few a good ideas. I'm not in total agreement with skillbuild etc, but u have valid arguments and therefore is worth a try:) Glad this got bumped to premium; however, it's a massive textwall and u kinda repeat urself to make sure that everyone gets everything, twice. I'm not close to being experianced, but hell, i got it the first time fs :p!

Like where?

[PoopyDesires]

I actually tried this out in a few serious games. I did really well at first, got a hilarious quad kill early by port-keying into a small 4v4 clash midway through. However, I died down really hard really fast till I decided to buy Geobane which threw me back up.

Any comments on new geobane? I find 2 bracers, shrunken head, port key, bot, and geobane alltogether works rather well.

[Jucc]

Loved the guide, keep it up :).

[Artic]

Good guide, but you use the Dota names for all the items, you should either use both names or just the Hon names.

I have no problem with people using Dota names normally (especially when they're shorter), but guides are for new people who might have either not played Dota, or just switched to Hon from dota. Both of these types of players need to know the new names for items so that they can find them in shops or in item guides.

[sHoWTiMe]

This hero is so cool to play with, IMO he's one of the most skill required heroes too.

[IsNe]

Good guide ^^ Soulstealer imy favorit hero :P but i prefer to build him otherwise (untill i saw this guide) but then again, i play in a lower tier of play xD

[Icx]

"- Assassin's Shroud now breaks stealth when a spell finishes casting, not when it starts"

almost makes me want to try out shroud instead of portal key for once :)

[Glorify1]

Still a suck item. ;P

Would I like instant positioning, or do I want minor damage increase and shitty positioning? That's the question I ask myself when I decide blink or lothars. Plus, blink is a far superior escape mechanism provided you have wards up.

[PoopyDesires]

Still a suck item. ;P

Would I like instant positioning, or do I want minor damage increase and shitty positioning? That's the question I ask myself when I decide blink or lothars. Plus, blink is a far superior escape mechanism provided you have wards up.

I cant confirm 100% but shrouding on top of someone and ulting rather then blinking into them seems to be doing substantially more damage for me.

Edit: Tested, it does MUCH more damage.

[ElementUser]

Well of course it does much more damage, if you're basically hugging the enemy without unitwalking, only about ~1/4 to 1/3 of the souls would hit him. Whereas if you're on top of the enemy, all of the souls will hit him.

The problem is the practically of Assassin's Shroud.

[Baarak]

I cant confirm 100% but shrouding on top of someone and ulting rather then blinking into them seems to be doing substantially more damage for me.

Edit: Tested, it does MUCH more damage.

It does do more damage, it doesnt make the item worth using over portal key however.

[Glorify1]

Rushing harkon's blade on pyro and lowering their magic armor does more damage.

[Testknight]

Rushing harkon's blade on pyro and lowering their magic armor does more damage.
Sounds "viable".

[Servitor]

Question, would you still get Behemoth's heart as over-the-top-luxury-item, even though it no longer gives regen for agi heroes? It still gives about 1000 Hit points and a nice +10% damage, which would apply to his daemon hands (330MD) and his Soul Burst too.

I must admit, I allways get soulsteal first. And I sometimes get enhanced marches instead of post haste ...

But this guide has helped me a great deal. Using Pkey instead of Shroud pays of too. Yes, shroud deals more damage to a single target IF you manage to get on top of him, but I find it more relaxing pressing the left mouse button once (Pkey teleport) than frantically spamming the right-mouse button to catch up with those running idiots, hoping I will get there before my 9 seconds of invisibility are up.

And then there's the matter of a simple spray-of-dust/ward/eye that completely nulifies your 3900 gold item. (Except maybe for the +120 damage 'nuke' stealth attack which I honestly don't miss.. )

[Glorify1]

Sounds "viable".

It does more damage, doesn't mean it's good. Same with my blink/lothars discussion, though honestly you deal less damage overall because you can't position your skills properly.

[Servitor]

@_@ I got ignored.


Question, would you still get Behemoth's heart as over-the-top-luxury-item, even though it no longer gives regen for agi heroes? It still gives about 1000 Hit points and a nice +10% damage, which would apply to his daemon hands (330MD) and his Soul Burst too.

[Glorify1]

Manta is better.

[Eason]

wheres your psu/batt my son -_-; the best 500 gold you ever spend

[Dataslycer]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but the casting time for soul stealer is horrific. He takes a good .6 second before the demon hand nuke comes as oppose to shadowfiend's .35 ish.