HoN Dev Blog: Grimm's Crossing

[Nome]

Dev Blog 1: Patch 1.0.21 (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=188844)

In the continuing spirit of open discussion, we'd like to let you guys in on some of the design insights that came about in the creation of the new 3v3 map, Grimm's Crossing, that will be released with HoN 2.0 and be featured with the new 3v3 Matchmaking.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2jbm6mf.jpg

1. Darkwood Vale v2
Our desire to revamp matchmaking eventually became a directive to include a 3v3 option to increase the robustness of the system. We first turned to Darkwood Vale, our only 3v3 map at the time. Though the initial idea for Grimm's Crossing arose from the ashes of Darkwood Vale, the end result would eventually evolve into a vastly different product.

2. Initial Concepting
We began the project with the intention of altering Darkwood Vale, our previous 3v3 map. Though Darkwood Vale accommodated four less players, the map itself was just as big as Forests of Caldavar, our 5v5 map. To compensate for this, we drastically decreased the map size, particularly in regards to the middle neutral area and lane length. Over the span of a single week, more and more adjustments were made until the map snowballed from a simple rework to a completely new map. Along the way, we had several insights regarding what players looked for in a 3v3--that it should be small, action packed, and fast as hell. This brought about a few special additions to the map:
http://i54.tinypic.com/30wrrls.jpg
Teleporters add an interesting offensive and defensive
element to the map, especially for juking. Despite the
already small size of the map, they add a way to reach the
battle faster, cementing the characteristic fast-paced
gameplay. The idea for teleporters had been on our minds
for quite a while; it was something we had considered for
the original remake of Darkwood Vale. There would be
one-way teleporters that offered a way to get into the
action faster, and would be part of the remedy of the huge
map size. On Grimm's Crossing however, they simply
supercharge the pace... wait until you have your first
starting rune fight on Grimm's Crossing!


http://i54.tinypic.com/53wg1i.jpg
There is no random number generator at work here. You
know where the rune will be every two minutes... you just
don't know what rune it is, or who else will be trying to get
it. Because there are only two lanes, with the rune at the
center of the map, leaving a lane allows players to obtain
the rune and gank in one swift move without slowing the
action down with backtracking.

Even the terrain itself is reflective of our goal of action, action, action.

http://i56.tinypic.com/5xzpe.jpg
While elevation differences and the unique gameplay features they
bring are core to strategy in 5v5, we felt that removing
elevation differences in lanes and bases was better for 3v3 in
order to fulfill a faster-paced gameplay style, as we wanted to
avoid prolonged sieges outside of bases on high ground. The only
walkable higher ground can be found at the teleporters, which will
be vital for map control.


http://i56.tinypic.com/ogi7is.jpg
There are trees galore! Both lanes are essentially flanked by
additional tree-lined paths specifically for ganking and
juking. A savvy Thunderbringer player could, for example,
theoretically spend the entirety of the laning stage playing
from the cover of trees. The fact that many of the treelines
are single-row creates even more potential for great plays
when you consider heroes and items with the ability to
destroy trees.


http://i52.tinypic.com/2wrf036.jpg
Being a 3v3 map, you will inevitably have at least one solo
lane. Unlike Forests of Caldavar, there is no "safe" middle
lane--both lanes are "long" lanes with plenty of ganking
potential.

In addition to the above, we came up with some additional concepts, some that didn't make it to the final map.


Visible vision blockers: As a solution to potentially imbalanced ward spots on high ground, visible lines of tall grass are used to notify players of a sight obstruction. This feature was also incorporated on Forests of Caldavar, where notable grass and reeds now populate Kongor's lair where blind vision blockers used to be. To clarify, this is NOT the "Brush" system from League of Legends (it has nothing to do with it).
Tower armor reduction: Though this system eventually made it into casual mode as a standard feature, it originally began as one of the solutions to turtling on Grimm's Crossing. Eventually, that problem was solved by the removal of elevation differences.


3. Release on Test Client
Once we felt pretty good about the map, we decided to release it on the Test Client for open beta testing. The map at this point was supposed to outright replace Darkwood Vale, but that idea was met with open hostility, so we set Darkwood Vale as 4v4 and spared it the fate of deletion. Though we received a lot of valuable feedback, we felt that in the end, the map was not ready for immediate release. The design and programming teams were prepping for the big move from California to Michigan, and we still lacked focused input from dedicated testers, as the Super Beta team was not yet created. For the next three months, the design team focused on the other features of HoN 2.0 and creating additional heroes and items. Grimms Crossing laid at the side with the intention of being resurrected near the end stage of 2.0.

4. Final Iterations
As HoN 2.0 was looming, Grimm's Crossing was brought back to the forefront of attention. Iterative test games were hammered out daily to make sure the final product was polished to our standards. Details like ward spots, juke paths, and fog issues were resolved to make the map what it is now.

http://i55.tinypic.com/33wxily.jpg

Although development occurred over several months, we only required one month of dedicated design work to complete Grimm's Crossing--the actual creation and major iterating process--a cycle of doodling, editing, and playing--occurred over a period of just two weeks. The best part about this is that like our new hero production schedule, now that we've set up the backbone for map creation, new additions to the Heroes of Newerth map arsenal should take even less time!

[Rizo]

Cool
Edit: No way Fizzy!

[FizzyBaby]

first?
Edit: Too bad Rizo! I called it! :D

[JJJJules]

Can't wait.

[C0ldfire]

1st page
nice job s2:zeph:

[Nerzul]

Omg Visible vision blockers: As a solution to potentially imbalanced ward spots on high ground, visible lines of tall grass are used to notify players of a sight obstruction. This feature was also incorporated on Forests of Caldavar, where notable grass and reeds now populate Kongor's lair where blind vision blockers used to be.

-99999
I hate tall grass in LoL.... totally lame

Edit: But i guess that the system wont be like LoLs, it's like a highground but with lack of visibility from both sides? :S

[Nallebjoern]

very cool

[Mazinkaiser]

Thank you for these kinds of posts, they are appreciated :)b

[znn]

The teleporter looks fun. Gonna be epic using tablet of command/blink to juke the crap out of people.

[Idejder]

Omg Visible vision blockers: As a solution to potentially imbalanced ward spots on high ground, visible lines of tall grass are used to notify players of a sight obstruction. This feature was also incorporated on Forests of Caldavar, where notable grass and reeds now populate Kongor's lair where blind vision blockers used to be.

-99999
I hate tall grass in LoL.... totally lame

Edit: But i guess that the system wont be like LoLs, it's like a highground but with lack of visibility from both sides? :S
It's like the grass at the entrance to the Kongor's Lair. And only in two very small spots on the map (In Grimms).

[Nome]

Omg Visible vision blockers: As a solution to potentially imbalanced ward spots on high ground, visible lines of tall grass are used to notify players of a sight obstruction. This feature was also incorporated on Forests of Caldavar, where notable grass and reeds now populate Kongor's lair where blind vision blockers used to be.

-99999
I hate tall grass in LoL.... totally lame

Edit: But i guess that the system wont be like LoLs, it's like a highground but with lack of visibility from both sides? :S

Vision blockers have always existed in HoN and DotA. Around Kongor/Roshan's lair, the Hellbourne ramp has two lines of vision blockers that prevent you from seeing up or down the ramp. You also cannot see inside Kongor's lair unless you step inside. All we did was add a line of reeds/grass that actually tells you you can't see past that line, rather than the line being completely invisible. This is part of the increased visual feedback we want to give players that will ultimately streamline the game for both new and experienced players.

[OedipusRexx]

first page?

hell ya niggas!!

[twizzR]

Looks awesome with this being released, tested some 3v3's on it when it was on the test client, loved it, LOTS of ganking!! can't wait:))

[Sinshol]

Sounds good.

[Mendo]

Awsome

[Dark_Kevin]

So is Vale confirmed to be 4v4?

[OMGWTF]

great read, really interesting information

if it took 2 weeks to complete the map creation phase for grimms crossing, i can only hope it's as difficult for aspiring map developers even though you mentioned it should be a lot more efficient now

[MeganFoxRawr]

So does that mean that they will take out the option of playing 3's on forest? Cause that be nice.

[Yoekix]

not a big fan of the tall grass thing, but overall i'm excited to play the map, transporters looks a bit useless on a smaller map, you could have made it an allied building where you use port stone on.

[joel1031]

Looks great!

[Hellii]

This will be so sweet.

The "tall-grass-thing" is not new. The view-blocking has always been there, now they just show you where they are.

[Drasha]

Grass only effects wards and offers a potential place to juke. For the most part you won't ever notice it is there. Personally I like playing this map better then caldavar :D

[SupahNoob]

How is this map balanced for all heroes? The biggest balance issue that comes to mind is ability ranges. Pharaoh, Repulsor, Chipper, Behemoth, Myrmadon, Flint - all these heroes come to mind with regards to their 1000range+ abilities, the most abusive being Repulsor, on a map that is quite literally a fourth of the size of Calvadar.

[Blaky039]

Can't wait doing trilanes in this map.

[dandylion]

Will there be additional "functional" things on maps in the future similar to the teleporters?

I had been brainstorming a map that had permanent "vantage points" on it. Essentially the vantage points would work as ward spots, but they are "disputed" and can be controlled by either team. By attacking the tower a certain # of times, or reducing the hitpoints to 0, the tower would switch to giving vision to the other faction.

That's just an example of some of the possible ideas that could be put into play, much like the teleporters, just wondering if you guys had anything in mind already and so on.

[Son]

Informative post. Not sure why some people don't understand the concept of the tall grass being nothing but a visual indication of a vision-blocker, since it's been present in FoC for sometime now.

Also, can we have Darkwood Vale as a 4v4 map in 2.0 Matchmaking? :)

[Kenpachi1337]

looks really awesome, as it did when introduced by idejer @ honcast. Got a woody since then tbh...

[HyperMusic]

can't wait to play, teleporter looks awesome

[The_Thrill]

I like how it's taken LoL about 6 years since they began working on their map, meanwhile S2 pumps one out in under a month. Kudos to ya'll.

[Emin3m]

i like this new map :P..... but i wish people would play watch tower and 4v4 more :)

[omg_booboo]

Looks pretty sick

[Rordarok]

This looks so awesome :o.

[BrownBanana]

woooooooow awesome :O

[Amgoz1STGS]

You guys are bro<3
Consider fixing Watchtower next time and I'll send you a nice drawing.

[Adronius]

Good job! :) Keep going like that! :)
It would be also nice to see some 10vs10 players - huge map for war :-)

[Sordak]

this thread perfectly shows the stubbornness of this community. It is even stated in the OP that it has NOTHING to do with the LoL system and it is just a way to indicate where the visual blockers are and people still dont get it or are Trollin mad.

[GnarlyGoat]

A map with the name "Grimm's Crossing" begs the question:

Why did the Grimm cross the road?

GnarlyGoat

[Triumph`117]

To pubstomp some fool.

[Baer]

Nice, now we have an awesome 5v5, 4v4 (and a bit 3v3) and an awesome 3v3 map.
All that's left is the single-lane map/option

[Able_Baker]

A map with the name "Grimm's Crossing" begs the question:

Why did the Grimm cross the road?

GnarlyGoat


could just be named after him for discovering it like they do with just about every other road, but hey i could just be going out on limb here...

Single rune in the middle is gonna be crazy.

[ViperThunder]

Interesting! :-)

[Fiat]

Is Grimm the same dude who builds a **** ton of random walls all over Newerth in Savage 1?

[WigglyFace]

I had been brainstorming a map that had permanent "vantage points" on it. Essentially the vantage points would work as ward spots, but they are "disputed" and can be controlled by either team. By attacking the tower a certain # of times, or reducing the hitpoints to 0, the tower would switch to giving vision to the other faction.

I was also thinking that something like Xel-Naga towers would be awesome in HoN, but would be best on ginormous maps, like the possible 7v7 or 9v9 maps that some S2 person mentioned a few days ago.

[GucciGod]

cool, i guess

[Emptronic]

Every time I play this map, I ask myself why I bother playing 5v5s at all.

Grimms is FTW

[KiIIerAtWork]

Looks great :) But I'm wondering when you are going to give us a 1v1 map, or just an only mid mode :)

[Anchovies]

Is Grimm the same dude who builds a **** ton of random walls all over Newerth in Savage 1?

I think Grimm is Jera and Mali's last name...

[Drasha]

I think Grimm is Jera and Mali's last name...
it is also ophelias last name.

[_dazE]

Great map! I had alot of fun playtesting this map as an avid 'upcoming forum' tester back before the SBTs were created. I definitely love all the tweaks and changes done, as well as the vision blockers to prevent wards from being too overpowered, as this was a big concern back then.

I look forward to seeing more map releases from you guys at S2 in the future :)

[Wolfrar]

Its a good map for 3v3, far better then Darkwood. The vast majority of people will still play 5v5 on Caldavar and standard though.

[beetfarmer]

I love love love this map, could use some tweaking though. I wish the space between towers was a tad longer, perhaps 1000-2000 extra distance? I still don't know what to think about the teleporters, seem kinda unnecessary on a small map with tons of options for juking/ganking already. I don't dislike them but I dunno that i like them either.

[Vaenas]

it is also ophelias last name.

Im pretty sure it's not ophelias last name, she is in direct family with them though, but she was rasied in the wilds as far as i know.

Actually, it states one place that she left the Legion of Man on her own behalf with help from the Beast horde (And thus her last name was still Grimm), but on another place it states she were taken away by her mother into the wild, where she was raised by the Beast Horde (Where her last name was not Grimm).

S2 should clarify the lore around newerth more, as in Savage 1 and Savage 2 lore conflicts with eachother, atleast from what ive read from the website.

[Droideka88]

Its a good map for 3v3, far better then Darkwood. The vast majority of people will still play 5v5 on Caldavar and standard though.

I agree. I can see myself playing Grimm's Crossing more often than Darkwood Vale...

I suggest for S2 to test putting 5 people in Darkvale Wood because people are not recognizing enough potential in the map design of Darkvale Wood. If you put 5 v 5, that would be interesting to see considering you have more options as far as setting up lanes and junglers.

[snapdoodle]

This map is super win.

[haschisch]

any chance you guys ever going to release a picture or something where you marked the invisible vision blockers?
(i am aware of the grass and stuff, thats why i am asking for the invisible vision blockers. the visible ones can easily be seen by myself.)

[Drasha]

sure hash i will see what i can do.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zr40b8.png

[diesel]

This map ROCKS!!!! Thank you so much S2!!!!!!!

[Wolfrar]

After playing through the map a few more times, I really enjoy it. S2 have done a great job making the map encourage fast paced ganking action. Alot of thought has been put into its design, and its ended up amazing.

[Jestai]

Surprisingly fun map, but you should reduce the number of jukespots though.
At the moment, walking in the forest is like walking in a thick fog... It feels like any space between two trees is an entrance to an endless maze. Juking is good, overpowered juking isn't.

[Jinxed]

The concept is great, but the sightlines and number of jukespots (forest) are WAY too much. You can literally be chasing someone and the next second he is gone.

The lack of sightlines, the narrow lanes and the cramped middle makes playing this map WAY to claustrophobic.

[Gesu]

ahaha oh my god! Look what I found while exploring the map editor ..
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1254/ahahhw.jpg

[blue`]

Best thing that has been implemented in 2.0

[Gesu]

1- i crash when i try to refresh minimap like the others
2- i need the undo button

=))

[Mittsies]

Vision blockers have been around since DotA, it's not like they were new to LoL or anything :\

[iMurder]

Valk rapes this map. Heads up.

[IchaFODcrane]

this map is the worst thing that ever came to hon. It actually turns me off from playing the game.

1. theres no late game
2. theres almost no way to make a comeback
3. some of the characters are useless

i wish s2 would get rid of this map.

[TooChu4U]

this map is the worst thing that ever came to hon. It actually turns me off from playing the game.

1. theres no late game
2. theres almost no way to make a comeback
3. some of the characters are usless

i wish s2 would get rid of this map.

-1 for you mister.

This map is meant to bring out the best of the gankers. This map has a HUGE emphasis on ganking, its so small!




Now for my complaint. Its just aesthetics. They bug me.
Forest of caldavar has something that grimms lacks, (no not three lanes) a difference between hellbourne and legion sides.
On this map, I feel like theres no boundary of when i should maybe back up a bit. Im pushing, next thing i know im at a tower and really confuzed why im dying...
I think you should maybe have some red volcanic craters with areas of melted snow around them. Maybe make it seem more hellish.
The legion side.. well its mostly the trees, with all the snow, they just blend into the background. Though, i dont know how this could be fixed. I love snow, dont get me wrong, but maybe just make it patches like in the current Caldavar forest. Which by the way, looks way cool. Your on planes of green then BAM! ice! though i always feel as if i should be slowed...

Just aesthetic complaints.. :)

Thanks for listening
:scou::scou::scou::phar::phar::scou::scou:

[IchaFODcrane]

-1 for you mister.

This map is meant to bring out the best of the gankers. This map has a HUGE emphasis on ganking, its so small!




Now for my complaint. Its just aesthetics. They bug me.
Forest of caldavar has something that grimms lacks, (no not three lanes) a difference between hellbourne and legion sides.
On this map, I feel like theres no boundary of when i should maybe back up a bit. Im pushing, next thing i know im at a tower and really confuzed why im dying...
I think you should maybe have some red volcanic craters with areas of melted snow around them. Maybe make it seem more hellish.
The legion side.. well its mostly the trees, with all the snow, they just blend into the background. Though, i dont know how this could be fixed. I love snow, dont get me wrong, but maybe just make it patches like in the current Caldavar forest. Which by the way, looks way cool. Your on planes of green then BAM! ice! though i always feel as if i should be slowed...

Just aesthetic complaints.. :)

Thanks for listening
:scou::scou::scou::phar::phar::scou::scou:


Im just expressing how i feel toward the map, i really dislike it.

[Kluckmuck]

Fantastic map!
Maybe you could fix some better ward spots though? :)

[TehFable]

Ward spots are my only issue. I do like that it's a pretty fast paced game, you're either ganking or getting ganked. AFK farming for 40 minutes/supporting/tri-laning is meh :s

EDIT: In terms of ward spots, there's about 2-3 ward spot locations that give you decent 'vision'. The cliffs around the rune and the portal area that gives you vision of whether the opponent is moving from one entrance to the other. Pretty much it, unless I missed some.

[TooChu4U]

Ward spots are my only issue. I do like that it's a pretty fast paced game, you're either ganking or getting ganked. AFK farming for 40 minutes/supporting/tri-laning is meh :s

EDIT: In terms of ward spots, there's about 2-3 ward spot locations that give you decent 'vision'. The cliffs around the rune and the portal area that gives you vision of whether the opponent is moving from one entrance to the other. Pretty much it, unless I missed some.

You have, ill get a pic up soon, theres some really good other ward spots that i found. Mostly for after the first tier towers are gone though.

Edit: marked most effective ward spots in purple, less effective, situational ward spots in blue.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/69/2zr40b8.png

[Ass_Fister]

crap map, pls delete it

[TooChu4U]

Im just expressing how i feel toward the map, i really dislike it.
Just telling you why the reasons you say its bad are bad reasons.

@eroarex this is a really cool map. I dont know why you hate it.

[aFaSTnE]

Tilt your head slightly to the right.

You know realize the map looks like a sad monkey.

Mind=Blown

[TooChu4U]

Tilt your head slightly to the right.

You know realize the map looks like a sad monkey.

Mind=Blown

I don't see it.

[DarkAgonizer]

Great map i enjoy it so much just one thing at some point after genocide towers fall so fast and its GG --- where the fun begins
- just make towers at base with more armor and dmg
- or respawn times shorter
-or both

[Ekamo]

ahaha oh my god! Look what I found while exploring the map editor ..
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1254/ahahhw.jpg

Can't... stop... LAUGHING XD

[IchaFODcrane]

Just telling you why the reasons you say its bad are bad reasons.

@eroarex this is a really cool map. I dont know why you hate it.

There pretty good reasons, i played magebane(not by choice, AR) on that map and i couldnt do anything, because he is a late game hero. Hes just one of a few characters useless on grim. Just my opinion

[DreamReamer]

I love this map, it is a fun change of pace from FoC. Although I can't recommend all random on here as late game carries are useless.

One question though, are the teleporters supposed to disjoint? I was playing a match and I ran through one as hammer chucked his hammer at me and it flew across the map to hit me on the other side.

[Good_Apollo]

There pretty good reasons, i played magebane(not by choice, AR) on that map and i couldnt do anything, because he is a late game hero. Hes just one of a few characters useless on grim. Just my opinion
Yeah to be honest I think it should have a reduced hero pool. There is no doubt some heroes are literally useless and god help you if you have to play them: :wild: :scou: :sand: :ophe: :chro: :mage: :warb: :legi:

[Ripoff]

This map is awesome, but its also very unique as some have stated, but its not crap for that reason.

THIS MAP IS NOT<--- BALANCED AROUND EVERY HERO. So all random mode is quite unbalanced, but you shouldnt mind that!

You dont have to play this map. Its for people who like small games and ALOT of action.

Just because it isnt balanced around ever hero doesnt make this map crap. Just dont play all random on this map. I find this map the greatest thing S2 has made.

[Mark]

Love the map, but please move the fountain further back. It's a really boring to have to push against enemy heroes camping the fountain.

Last 20mins of this match shows what I mean. 23567969

[DieFi]

Yeah to be honest I think it should have a reduced hero pool. There is no doubt some heroes are literally useless and god help you if you have to play them: :wild: :scou: :sand: :ophe: :chro: :mage: :warb: :legi:

Fully agree with you through the heroes listed top can still be played on a lane. I'm more over concerned about :doct: he is simply to overpowered with his ulti. When having the right amount of mana he can just jump lane base over and over. Therefor I hope he gets banned from this map.

[FreiBierFred]

finally :devo: got his own blog!

[CupONoodle]

I would like to congratulate on making a great new map and HoN really needed a new 3v3 map. Darkwood Vale wasnt exactly good 3v3 play nor designwise good, having lots of unused space and annoying lanes that favorised heroes such as devourer above others.

I think the middle part of the Grimm's Crossing is pretty good if not a tad fit of space, but when fighting elsewhere its becoming a nuisance because fights tend to always end up inbetween trees. There are currently waaay to many treepaths, what should have been done instead is cutting the corners. You should really do something about the ganking from the trees from inbetween middle and the lane. Im not much a fan of the sidelines either, they seem a bit too straight for my taste and its quite annoying trying to chase heroes down this alley. I cant say i find juking in this map very satisfying, because its far too easy - its not really a challenge.

[LemoNToweL]

Who does everything think is the best hero on grimms?

[CupONoodle]

Valkyrie.

Theres way too many angles to place an arrow from and leaping to safety is ridicolously easy.
You can even jump out/into base easily.
Not to mention the ally movespeed/invis she can give.

[Ind1goFloW]

Devo, definatly.

[ayowillow]

I love this map. Rewards teamplay/skill/map control/team composition far more than 5v5, just because of the fact the small map necessitates more battles and less farming. I also love the fact that there are so many paths to abuse LoS to gain an advantage in laning and in teamfights, combine that with the teleporter and it makes this map very fun

Best hero on this map has to be either Valk/Devourer, Valkyrie just dominates the solo lane + rune control puts you and your team in an extremely good position. Not to mention your skillset allows you to be good early game while you prep to be a semi-carry. The reduced travel time for wandering really helps for Devo, which really improves him at his role to shut down the other team early.

[`Tape]

i find jeraziah to be pretty beast in this map, as is pharoh! Valk is huge too!

[tpfaff]

love the map :mora:

[Berethorn]

really dislike it

[Good_Apollo]

You guys keep mentioning X ganking hero saying they rape. All ganking heroes rape on this map.

:fors: :wret: :gaun: :myrm: :fayd: :witc: :phar: :devo: :bomb: :vood: :valk: :ramp: :tund: :pyro: :glad: :dead: :doct: all destroy on Grimm's.

[Ekamo]

Torturer is a freaking beast on this map. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets FP/ban material on this map.

[Brannock]

Love the map, it's absolutely fantastic.

@ the people whining about it and asking for it to be deleted. Really? Don't play it.

[made`]

Tried the map in a match making game the other day with a friend.. Really fun map! Like that it is so small! Action packed!

[Couchmonster]

This map looks like it got copied 1 to 1 from League of Legends.

[Drasha]

This map looks like it got copied 1 to 1 from League of Legends.
I don't see it at all.

[haschisch]

sure hash i will see what i can do.
[BIGIMAGE]

there are at least four more. on every mountain at every outer tower.

[Drasha]

there are at least four more. on every mountain at every outer tower.
nope the ones i listed are the only ones. If you didn't know trees block vision on the ground level they are on and one level up.

[haschisch]

i'm pretty sure you couldn't oversee the creepspots when lumbering those trees down with pyro's stun but as i am not at my computer atm i can't try.

[Masterxen]

Love the map.