Madman needs a nerf.

[Woolygimp]

I'm a noob and although I may be inexperienced I can recognize when something is grossly overpowered.

My last game with him, once I got abyssal skull + wingblade I was able to terrorize/solo/pick off their entire team which allowed me to get doombringer. Once I had doombringer, I had 450-550 damage and high crit, a 40% movement speed buff in stealth, snares, enrages, and armor/atk speed debuffs. I was able to kill the enemy heroes like they were creeps.

At one point their entire team was hitting me with everything they had, in a 4v1 (accursed, jezeziah, glacius, blood hunter) and the fact that it took roughly three swings (and a buffed madman swing is quick!) per hero + lifeleach meant I ended the fight with all 4 of them dead and at 50% health. I've never seen level 20+ heroes die that quickly.


Even if I was in danger of dying, I pop stealth and run across the map faster than someone can teleport with post haste. Even if they pop dust, I'm quickly out of range already due to the movement speed buff.

It's not that I'm good - I suck HARD. It's just that this hero is way out of line. Awesome straight up attack speed and damage (can out melee any character in the game once geared), probably the fastest character around, quick attack animation (easy to last hit), stealth, great utility for running someone down... He has it ALL.

Escape! (one of the hardest, if not the most difficult character to kill)
Damage! High damage + fast attack speed and buffed crit - i don't see how another melee character could outdmg him.
Tank! (he's no slouch, once he has wingblade and abyssal skull - he's not going to die)
Speed! (no comment)
Utility! (has everything he needs to make sure anyone he attacks is not getting away)

fix.

[LodeRunner]

I'm a noob and although I may be inexperienced
Then you're not aware of his easy direct counter, the ward.

[Woolygimp]

Then you're not aware of his easy direct counter, the ward.

Even if madman had no stealth, I'd still consider him overpowered. He's just too effective in combat and what makes him good is his movement buff + snares, not the stealth.

[BLUEPOWERVAN]

ward is no faster than dust if you are reacting... he's so fast that even a second unstunned is enough to pop stealth, and once stealthed run out of range before you can drop a ward or dust. the health gain and +move is too high... the whole hero concept is really boring anyway.

[kosta1]

Stealth could use a 20%MS boost instead of 40%. The crits and ulti are powerful but only if you let him farm.

[Limi]

Madman is like all other heroes, if you get the right items you will kill everyone with no problems or hastle. That's not the fault of the design of the hero (especially in this case with Madman) it's the fault of the team you were playing against.

If anything, he'll be more useful once the next patch comes out as he's being buffed/modified again

[Gedok]

Then you're not aware of his easy direct counter, the ward.

40 MS + 10 slash + (if they for some reason chooose to) 10 enhanced marchers

60% movement speed? Good luck trying to catch up.

[Krangry]

I assume you were playing a pub, if a jere wasnt smart wnough to use hsit ult, along with the other disables...

[Ulquiorra2]

he is pretty good, with proper items hes life stealing, stuning on attack, have a atack speed af above 1.9and does get out of hand xD dealing damage of 500 a attack 1000 damage a sec xD (before armour)

[Krangry]

What you need to realize is hes very easy to keep underfarmed, if you gank him. His mana pool is small, and hes relatively weak, just hunt him with a couple stunners and its np

[Inconmon]

Problem with new Madman is that his damage output is insane with only few items. Last game I got steamboots and shieldbreaker... and I was two-hitting all int heroes midgame (was mediocre level and all myself;started extremely underfarmed and 0:3). When I added the wingbow as third item I could two-hit their tank with two crits.

Now you have that high damage output, windwalk, slow and +120% attackspeed. Lol?

[Karandor]

Get rid of his windwalk and he's fine. The biggest problem is his HUGE movespeed in WW makes him almost impossible to gank.

Puppet Master is a goood counter to him, if you play it right you can make him kill his own team.

[TLSHadow]

Stop this hero from farming/buy dust and he loses all utility. Is this hero going to even farm in a high skill game? No.

Once again anther thread about invisible heroes being OP. Zzz

[Glorify1]

Utility! (has everything he needs to make sure anyone he attacks is not getting away)

Very situational dual slow capabilities, and it's not even a good slow in the first place.


Tank! (he's no slouch, once he has wingblade and abyssal skull - he's not going to die)

Low hitpoints, that's a LOT of gold to ask him to farm, and adds very little damage to him anyways.


Damage! High damage + fast attack speed and buffed crit - i don't see how another melee character could outdmg him.

His base damage is dogshit, and yes he can attack fast and has a crit, but he does not damage without gear so it doesn't even matter.


Speed! (no comment)

Oh noes, how does I stun him!

[GhostRidah]

if you allow him to farm he is pretty much top tier, but if you harass and deny and not allow him to farm plus use dust/wards he is easy.

[tehwalrus]

Speaking as a noob playing as madman, it is really easy for the other team to keep him from farming, and without that gold to buy items he's completely unable to do anything

[Sapheron]

I find hes quite strong if you get him Abyssal Skull and Elder Parasite.

With the bonus atk spd from elder parasite and his ulti, he can lifesteal pretty fast.

[Cantspel]

I think it was more of an issue of the enemy team then it was your hero as others said. The enemy team doesn't sound like it had a great end game make up in either case.

EDIT: just had a match vs Madman, he wasn't an issue at all. Perhaps the madman wasn't a pro in that match, but he was semi farmed up.

[Powster]

Well.. if a person does good/farms a lot any character can seem over powered in my opinion.. I always believed that but even more yesterday.. I was a devourer and got some early lucky kills by mid game I won every fight 1vs1 or 1vs2. Late game I could tank damage from the whole team for around 30 seconds.. It was funny when they had towers and everything in base still and I would stand by there fountain letting them all attack me and not doing anything. I had like 22 kills 1 death..

[vincentx106]

this guy wanted to report me cause i pwned him with madman.. LOL but I don't think thats the problem. they let me farm and fed me much. Madman can't harm tanks or anyone with a ton of hp. It's easy to counter madman. Helm of Black Legions and gank him early on. With good items and smart play, he'll only scratch you.

[Waffles]

this guy wanted to report me cause i pwned him with madman.. LOL but I don't think thats the problem. they let me farm and fed me much. Madman can't harm tanks or anyone with a ton of hp. It's easy to counter madman. Helm of Black Legions and gank him early on. With good items and smart play, he'll only scratch you.

I see you finally found the forums. Stick around, you will quickly find you are in the minority. Madman is B-R-O-K-E.

[Inconmon]

Madman can't harm tanks or anyone with a ton of hp.

lol, l2buytherightitems

[FiNGERS]

Just get blademail, he'll hit you twice and nearly be dead.

[Acco]

pretty sure this is what carry heroes do. I can play a night hound and destroy kids late game in 4-5 hits.

[kane2]

I have only played a few games but i but ever since i got him in a SD game and i have never looked back.

This is what i normaly aim for.

Steamboots > Ruined Axe (for better farming) > Elder Parasite > Brutalizer

All that is around the 13,000g mark with a few ruins of blight and a mana potion at the start. Without the Ruined Axe i don't think i could get enough gold, also mana might be a bit of a pain, i might try skipping it and going straight for the Parasite/Brutalizer, then just stack agility with any extra money i have. 2 or 3 untimely deaths will royaly **** this up as if you're sitting on 1.5k + and you die it really hurts the wallet, and i normaly won't have the money to get everything i want.

People tell me to get the wingbow, i'm sure it does dish out the punishment but, the thought of sitting on 3.3k(?) for the dancing blades fills me with fear.

The Parasite/Ultimate combo gives you +190 attack speed, normaly i don't use both at the same time as it's total over kill, unless i'm trying to take on a tank. Stealth, Steamboots and the Parasite allows me to boost my speed up to 522, which seems to be the maximum, this allows me to get across the map for creep wave farmage or ganks pretty quickly.

My only gripe with this game (from what i have played so far) is the skill seems to come down to farming and leveling, i wish there was not such a huge gap created by items/levels, it gets to the point where you are just rolling your face on the keyboard and annihilating about 3 people with very little effort or skill. More micro in battles and less dependancy on items/levels would me nice, then again i have not played that much.

I am guessing competative play is different tho, as people would pick a nice spead of heroes and get items to support their team, rather than going for 4 int based chars and trying their hardest to pew pew the **** out of everything. It's all very well saying omfg nerf it but i'm guessing that would balls up the competative side of things, of which most of us know nothing about and probabaly never will.


Just make sure you kill him a few times during the game and it really takes the sting out of his tail.

[telemmaite]

madman is not op at all just don`t let him farm...you are 4v5 at start of the game with him until all reach like level 11+. The madman is HEAVILY Item dependent.

[Lexicon]

The issue isn't can madman be beaten. The issue is whether or not he is balanced. Some of you have written that the solution is simply to gank madman early on, but with invisibility, that's not easy. It takes at least 2, probably 3 disables to take him out if he's played by a decent player. His animation makes him a prime last-hitter, and a strong laning hero. I don't see how he's a weak hero early game. I have no problem holding a lane with madman, and given his slow, he makes an excellent ganking hero, and combos well. He is not item dependent. For example - I recently had a game against madman, I was magebane. Granted I was experimenting with item builds, and decided to go for thunderclaw/charged hammer - not really a good choice as it turned out. Still - I had a stronger item build than madman (all things considered), and he could still kill me even though he started with less than half his hp. He had a wingbow, steamboots, and an abyssal skull. Nothing else. I had whispering helm, charged hammer, steamboots, hack and slash, and helm of the black legion. We were the same level, more or less, he was maybe a level higher than me. There is something broken there. Too many strong combos built into the hero. A few tweaks here and there would make a big difference. I for one think the invis shouldn't slow, and the cooldown on his ult should be longer. That would probably be enough - not sure, but probably.

[Woolygimp]

The issue isn't can madman be beaten. The issue is whether or not he is balanced. Some of you have written that the solution is simply to gank madman early on, but with invisibility, that's not easy. It takes at least 2, probably 3 disables to take him out if he's played by a decent player. His animation makes him a prime last-hitter, and a strong laning hero. I don't see how he's a weak hero early game. I have no problem holding a lane with madman, and given his slow, he makes an excellent ganking hero, and combos well. He is not item dependent. For example - I recently had a game against madman, I was magebane. Granted I was experimenting with item builds, and decided to go for thunderclaw/charged hammer - not really a good choice as it turned out. Still - I had a stronger item build than madman (all things considered), and he could still kill me even though he started with less than half his hp. He had a wingbow, steamboots, and an abyssal skull. Nothing else. I had whispering helm, charged hammer, steamboots, hack and slash, and helm of the black legion. We were the same level, more or less, he was maybe a level higher than me. There is something broken there. Too many strong combos built into the hero. A few tweaks here and there would make a big difference. I for one think the invis shouldn't slow, and the cooldown on his ult should be longer. That would probably be enough - not sure, but probably.


How about make it to where he's not twice as fast as everyone else? This makes him ungankable. It's retarded.

For those of you who are dying with this hero. You ****ing suck. I could maintain are 30:1 KDR with him - and I'm horrible.

As I said in the other thread, madman is basically War Beast/Lycan (another carry) in metamorphasis mode except instead of it only lasting 30 seconds as is the case with war beast, it lasts 24/7 with madman. He's got the retarded movement speed, the insane damage, the super attack speed, the criticals... but I think madman even has an advantage in a few areas. Madman has a snare. Madman has stealth. Madman MAY do more damage due to the 36% chance to crit.

So why the **** should this hero be able to outperform another carry while in his ULTIMATE mode?

So you can roll war beast and you could wolf mode 30 seconds every 3 minutes, not have stealth, not have a snare, and have one of the worst early game carries due to his horrible damage, very low hp, no escape, and bad animation...

Or you can roll madman and have more damage, stealth, snare, -armor debuffs (desolator for free/ this is HUGE), and enrage (an even more awesome ultimate), awesome early game - easiest char to last hit/deny, and all this pretty much 24/7.

Get where this is going? Madman has the debuffs, the enrages, the snares, the faster attack, the criticals, the 40% movement speed buff, the better damage, the better escape, the better early game, stealth, synergy with wingbow - and so forth.

Show me a few valid advantages war beast has over madman besides saying "oh well war beast is better at jungling".
Why should anyone ever pick war beast over madman (most people don't, for a reason).

Btw, I think a lot of the people in this thread have a god complex when playing this character. Oh you can beat me - you just have to have your entire team abandon your lanes to come play a game of "hunt the madman"... because everyone knows the way to victory is to have 5 people hunting 1 character, while giving the other team complete dominance over the remaining lanes, just so that one character can't level up and rape everyone in the face repeatedly.

[willtsay]

true this madman is pretty imba, rediculous amounts of plus speed on his stalk ability... slow makes it retarded good.

lycan in this version is worse tho, when in ult form he can get slowed unlike in dota where even if you sheep him in ult form hell still be 522 ms :P needs some fixing here.

[Woolygimp]

madman is not op at all just don`t let him farm...you are 4v5 at start of the game with him until all reach like level 11+. The madman is HEAVILY Item dependent.

Are you ****ing serious? This character is one of the best gankers from level 1 because he can stroll up behind people and pop them with that snare initiating a gank from the get-go. Maybe it's not that the madman makes the teams 4v5 from the start ( it doesn't, this character is clearly better than most at level 1), it's that you suck so hard that your team is 4v5 with you on it because you, as a player, don't know how to contribute until you're level 11+. This has nothing to do with madman, just your ineptude.

To prove a point, we could play a 1v1 and I'd let you pick any non-ranged hero and give me madman and let's see how that turns out for you. Since a team with a madman is down a man at the start, theoretically according to you - it should be a 0v1.

You can't lose a 0v1, can you? Anyway, my money is on the 0 raping you.

[telemmaite]

quit raping me and please explain how madman is "better than any other 1v1" and then you say "pick any non-ranged hero" lol Isn`t this controversy ?

[kosta1]

Wooly kinda explained what's wrong with madman. It's a gank team suffed into one hero + 500 and more MS that can be kept up all the time.

[Watever]

Why is this discussion even here?

Isn't madman getting changed next version? So what's the point discussing his imbalance if even the devs are aware of it?