Learning curve

[travesty1]

I dont know if im just that terrible but i die almost every game. does it ever get any easier?

[Johnnsen]

It probably does because the people who kill me often seem like dumb people.

You could think the community is worse than the cheating 10 year olds on WoW private servers because you only get insulted, yelled at, called a noob and eventually kicked not knowing what the crap is going on.

[Bhelogan]

Well, just about everyone is going to die a few times in most games. You do get better, but it takes some time. Read though everything you can about item builds, strategies, ect. both on our forums, and the forums for DotA. It helps a lot.

[Karmashock]

I dont know if im just that terrible but i die almost every game. does it ever get any easier?
Yes.

It took me about 10 games before I even had a chance on the newbie servers. But I never played Dota before. Now I'm "ok" on the "newbies allowed" servers but only "just"... and I'm really only good with like two or three heroes.


A lot of it comes down to knowing what items you need, managing the early game well. That means trying to get as much XP as quickly as possible without having to run back to heal. You're doing well if you can make it to 6th level without having to run back to base. Most of this part comes down to being very very careful about how much damage you take and give. For melee characters you'll want to stay just behind your forces and only kill a creep when it's near death to get the last hit and GOLD. Also you'll want to kill your own creeps when they reach the same point to deny last hit to the enemy. Denying takes a lot of practice and I'm still bad at it both because I tend to time it wrong and because I just forget to do it sometimes. But doing this will see that your enemy's XP intake can be reduced by as much as 1/3 (rough estimation based largely on someone denying all my kills and hitting level 6 when I hit level 4). This can be a huge advantage. Both because of the XP discrepency and the gold discrepency. Denying your enemy kill gold means that when you go back to buy stuff you should be able to just return if he's still there and kill him outright unless he's careful.



Stick with it. It's a lot of fun once you get over the hump. I think I've just barely gotten over it and now it's a matter of absorbing details and refinement of basic skills.


A big issue that you have to watch out for is invisible characters. These are very powerful in pubs because people typically don't drop wards or use anti invisibility items at all. This means that the invisible units can walk around the map doing whatever they want and pretty much wait for the right moment and then kill most units. Now, wards especially in the early game are relatively expensive and they're a pain to place because you move so much. But they're great for controlling an invisible enemy that is farming the same lane. In the late game if the invisible characters are a problem you might consider buying a bound eye. Once the money is flowing they're not too expensive just don't buy it if you're death prone.

[Motavia]

Basic goals.

1. Don't die.

2. Stay near xp gains as often as possible.

3. Gank enemy heroes.

Those are your 3 major goals, and in that order. Later in the game you don't have to be as focused on maximizing your gold/xp, but at the start it is VERY important.

As far as it getting easier: it does. Much. Just keep playing and building your situational awareness. Once you've seen a setup enough times, you know instinctively when to push and when to pull back.

[Sappo]

The game would be VERY well served by something like the -tips system in Dota.

I found it useful to read a few hero guides and try their item suggestions out. Definitely gets you started in the right direction. Once you learn a few item combinations for different heroes, it makes it easier to start analyzing items better once you understand how they affect heroes and which types they are useful for.

Other than that, just try out heroes, each have different playstyles that take practice to use. Some are especially useful for hit and runs, others are tanks, some are support. It varies, just hop in noob games (or create your own), you can even require a certain K : D ratio to make sure everyone is actually noobs.

[Supremacy]

If you've never played DotA before, this game will have a serious learning curve. The problem is that even in noobs only games, if you don't even have the slightest clue what you are doing, people are probably going to get mad (competition in video games, who knew?)

The BEST thing you can probably do, is just ASK someone on your team. There have been plenty of games I've played with new players, but instead of asking for help they just do their own thing and die repeatedly and get items that aren't suited for their heroes.

Hopefully there will be at least 1 person on your team that has the slightest clue what they are doing, or has played DotA before, and those are the ones that can help you out. They might not always be right, but it's not like you have anything else to go on at that point in time.

Once you get in the hang of things, it becomes a lot easier, and you can start figuring out your own builds, or making them situationally (Their team has 4 nukers? Get a Shaman's Headdress or Shrunken Head instead of that Runed Axe or Helm of the Black Legion)

Then there's the joke builds (like Codex on Predator) which can be fun, but only when the other team knows about as much as you do, which is nothing. The thing to be warry of, is that just because 1 build works 1 game, doesn't mean it's going to work in another. (Although I'm pretty sure all you need on Dark Lady to win is Steamboots, Abyssal Helm, and 4 Runed Axes)

[Drasha]

http://www.bigfoto.com/sites/galery/background/background_brick_wall.jpgHoN learning curve

[Powster]

When I started out I died loads also.. Took me around 50 games to be about 0.5 kills per death. My suggestion is to learn a hero one at a time.. and start with ones that own at the start. Thunderbringer I think is the best choice. (I started with pyromancer but hes kinda harder because you have to aim his stun)..

And.. yeah I agree with asking your team for help. Even though now that I have 200 games played or whatever I havent played all the heroes yet but I ask my team what I should buy.. and depending on what they say you can kinda tell what the use of the hero is... and sometimes you might even get some guy who actually helps you out alot.. My first time playing chronos a guy was pretty much telling me what to do in the fights with him lol.. Everything he said worked out though and I learned how to play chronos really good from just one game.

The thing that I learned to play the most was reading guides like..
http://forum.esnation.com/showthread.php?t=24964
Even though I dont agree with everything anymore that was said on that guide it is so detailed that you should be able to learn the hero good... Whenever I play a hero for the first time I always go to that esnation site to search part and type in the dota heros name and look at the skill build and mid to late game items real fast to just give me an idea what to do.

[Riotdante]

Some basic tips/advice that I have picked up, not great but all helpful.

#Try to acquire a +hp regeneration item, this will allow you to hang just behind the creeps and still gain XP while you are regenerating you hitpoints. Do be careful of other heroes that may attempt to stun and/or gank you if you are low on hitpoints.

#Never chase a hero on low health unless you KNOW you can take him out before he reaches a tower.

#Always report missing heroes in your lane. If you notice the enemy hero that was in your lan just vanished just tell your team "Missing Pyro LeftLane" as he may go ganking or have gone to team up on one of your allies. Many experianced players will apprechiate this.

#State if you are "not too great" early on so that your team know, ths may propt them to send an addition hero in your lane as backup.

#At the start never go into a lane that already has 2 heroes in it unless they have a tactice you know about.

#If you are melee and have no "Lifesteal" abilitys it is normally a good idea to pick up a lifesteal item as you will be able to heal to full just from hitting creeps, it will also keep you alive a lot longer.

#If your team calls for a gank one a lane, make sure you get there with the rest of the team and don't be afraid to jump right in there. If all 5 of you are about to jump one hero there is very little chance he will escape and you can net yourself a nice gold bonus from the killing blow/assist.


This last point I cannot stress enough... Be polite to all other players and do not retort to the idiots which spam insults "LOL HAX FAGS SUXX LOSER Blah blah" This just marks you out as an immature player and will lead people to blacklisting you.

[HellbirD]

Look its one of those things, you arent playing against generated AI.

You are playing against people that want to beat you!!! And honestly, you are always going to be at a disadvantage if you have played 10 games and your opponent has played 20.

The best advice I can give you, is take your losses and say thank you. Losing with the right attitude is its own victory.


"Victory is sweetest when you've known defeat."

"I learned much more from defeat then I ever learned from winning."

Malcolm S. Forbes

[Bebop]

It probably does because the people who kill me often seem like dumb people.

You could think the community is worse than the cheating 10 year olds on WoW private servers because you only get insulted, yelled at, called a noob and eventually kicked not knowing what the crap is going on.

it's mainly the dota community, which is the worst community from the whole of gaming. similar to the 10 year olds you mentioned.

[FuriousPeon]

it's mainly the dota community, which is the worst community from the whole of gaming. similar to the 10 year olds you mentioned.

Sorry this isn't your friendly "xD ^_^ OMIGASHIIII" Ragnarok Online Community, but we're not all *******s. You'll understand why the community is the way it is one day. Not saying it's 'right' but you'll understand better. Right now you have no clue

on a topic note.

REALISTICALLY, you're learning the way you should, and you should be as bad as you are now, Regardless. If you're courageous enough, ask a good dota player to show you the ropes, depending on who you ask/howgood he is/ his personality, he'll teach you patiently. The friends who introduced me to this game were all new, I taught them step by step. I played only games with them and despite the fact we lost most games, I taught them more and took everything as a learning experience for them.

Some Dota players just want to watch you crash and burn and Laugh. Others are just frustrated because they figured you wouldn't want to learn anyway.

So yeah Take that into consideration when looking at my stats and saying "OMG STAT INFLATION DOTA STAT PADDERRRRRR!!!Z"

Hon's learning curve is a lot less vicious than Dota. You ever rock-climb before? Know the rating system? Hon is about a 5.7. Dota is more like a 5.13

[Johnnsen]

Sorry this isn't your friendly "xD ^_^ OMIGASHIIII" Ragnarok Online Community, but we're not all *******s. You'll understand why the community is the way it is one day. Not saying it's 'right' but you'll understand better. Right now you have no clue

Nope, doesn't justify anything. If I ask for people not constantly flaming and moaning like retards, its is too much? Oh wow. Sounds promising!
Im not asking for "xD ^_^ OMIGASHIIII", I just want a normal environment. And no, I will not understand it. People who behave that way are just stupid to me. Not worth responding to anyway.

[Elman1]

XD

^o^

OMIGASHIII!!!!!!!!


(Seriously, though. It does get better :P Just keep trying, read guides, blah, blah, blah)

[RPZip]

Nope, doesn't justify anything. If I ask for people not constantly flaming and moaning like retards, its is too much? Oh wow. Sounds promising!
Im not asking for "xD ^_^ OMIGASHIIII", I just want a normal environment. And no, I will not understand it. People who behave that way are just stupid to me. Not worth responding to anyway.

This is admittedly conjecture since I have never in my life played DOTA and got into the beta fairly recently, but my guess is that it comes out of playing a competitive, team-work driven game. If you're playing a FPS with a bunch of newbies on your team there's a decent chance you'll lose, but you can do quite well on your own and the matches are fairly short. DOTA/HoN matches are both long, and the chance of you being able to do well on your own when there's a few newbies on your team dragging you down is quite minimal; in some ways it's more like an MMO-style situation, where playing with baddies will hose you rather severely, than most other games.

It's frustrating to lose a game when the only reason you lost is that your teammates were incompetent; more than that, you'll end up just getting wrecked and farmed by the opposing team if they can organize ganks/wrecking ball crews and you can't.

It doesn't really excuse people being retarded, which you see a fair bit of, but it's not that hard to understand why they'd get frustrated either.

[Karmashock]

Some Dota players just want to watch you crash and burn and Laugh. Others are just frustrated because they figured you wouldn't want to learn anyway.
This is getting closer to the truth.

There is an ingrained culture of shutting out people that need to learn. Because newbies in a Dota game more then most games mean the whole team is going to lose.

In most games the worst a bad player can do is get killed and not contribute. In Dota by dying they enrich the other team and make it harder for everyone else to win.

This along with being out in the wild has matured into a toxic culture of exceedingly snobbish elitism refined almost intentionally to be repulsive. Because in being repulsive it makes the newbies go away.

You say we might understand one day why the culture is the way it is... I think that's it right there.

Here's the thing though, it doesn't have to be that way. You can change the dynamic and grow beyond it by using the tiers. You won't play with newbies on the pro servers.

Everything can change for the better. I understand that it's hard to organize a community when all you've got is a text box to shout in. I've been there. I know the need to cut people's heads off sometimes. But it simply isn't necessary in HoN. And thus it's inappropriate.

In any event, if the Dota players have no interest in teaching the HoN players how to play beyond stomping them into the ground and calling them retards in the process... then that's ok. Seriously. Other arrangements will be made. But don't pretend like you're there to help or teach people if that's your choice. No one's demanding you spend time showing people how to do things. But simple integrity compels people to not at the same time pretend like they're doing people a favor in the process.


As to the learning curve, it does get better. You just have have to be patient. Again, I recommend shuffled servers with random heroes. It's like statwhore kryptonite. ;)

[Johnnsen]

@RPZip: I understand, but I wasn't even talking about being retarded and unfriendly towards newbies only. The whole tone is harsh and annoying with people going batshit insane with no reason all the time.

[pHk]

Being in the same situation (complete noob, no dota experience), I've found that a little tutoring from someone that knows the game about items and basic strategies goes a long way.

Also, from the 12 or so games I've played so far, at least half of them had helpful players on the team who offered advice and some help here and there, which I found pleasantly surprising.

One of the biggest problems I have is the slightly awkward scale of battlefield view. Being used to other RTS games, where the scale is usually bigger, I find it hard to keep track of what's going on sometimes. I've even managed to lose my hero once, where I couldn't identify him any more on the screen, with so much going on. Then again, situational awareness plays an important part in this game (knowing who is where and doing what).

[Magus1]

If you've played dota, HoN is honestly just realizing which hero is which, and finding the items placement. After that, it's finding out what the hell the newer heroes do.

[twincannon]

#1 thing to realize about DotA servers.

All the good players go to the games named "newbs only" to tear it up.

All the newbs go to "pros only" games because they think they're good. :p

[Blitz]

It helps after a few games. Even as a casual dota player, I had no idea how I died many times in HoN. I'll be full health and 2 seconds later, dead.

The learning curve is really steep for this game. I still think it is fun.

[Strayfire]

If I had to pick 1 tip that would help you the most it would be this: Play AP and learn 1 hero at the time! Find someone you think looks/sounds/is awesome and lurk around the forums for maybe a guide or some tips. Then play that hero until you feel you're good with him. Then move onto another one. This helped me tremendously when I first started playing DotA. Cheers!

[Dergeist]

Just want to chime in that DotA had the steepest learning curve of any game I have ever played in over 25 years of gaming. It is extremely difficult to come into a game where you need to know close to 100 different heroes, each with 4 different abilities, a heap of basic items, the recipes for the more advanced items, and different item/skill builds for each hero depending on situation/team composition. Compound that with the fact that not knowing those things and dying a lot makes it infinitely more difficult to win and will result in the other players flaming you. Starting from 0 experience you are looking at weeks to months of losing badly before you start to catch on and maybe win a few matches.

Despite that initial difficulty, in the end it is still one of the most rewarding and fun games to play. As everyone keeps saying, stick with it, and it will pay off.

[Jerry]

Three stages:

1. Learning how not to die while getting experience/last hits.
2. Learning how to play your own heroes.
3. Learning each individual hero's abilities and how to avoid getting caught by them.

And I 100% agree with the tips suggestion a while back, post that in the suggestion forum.

[billymays1]

When I started I was very decent at DotA but wasn't used to the HoN heroes(the same, i know, but different models and names making it hard to connect). I was yelled at many times for doing the wrong things like say for instance, attacking accursed when his ult was going. I'm very familiar with abbadon....not at all with the accursed. I was flamed by my whole team for a good 5 minutes on the matter and all I could do was apologize. I think that there aren't enough noobs only games being hosted considering that starting out I got no/little help from teammates.

[Krigo]

I feel like such a noob, I have yet to try out most classes. I've only done about 6-9 matches, only about 4 of them were proper and I have 2 kills, 18 assists and 84 deaths all together. I guess I should practice more in private, because the public game players are elitists a lot of the time.

[Drew_]

I found the learning curve of HoN to be worse than that of DotA because of the new UI.

But I suppose if you get used to the UI it's the same as DotA.

It helps to be good at AoS maps on WC3, not just DotA. I'm awful at DotA because I rarely play it but I'm good at other AoS maps, so my first game was only dreadful, not terribly dreadful.