PDA

View Full Version : Elder or portal key before Shrunken for hammerstorm?



Milktog
11-11-2010, 12:22 PM
From other posts i've read the general consensus was to get :Portalkey: and then :ShrunkenHead: for :hamm: with maybe :ElderParasite: afterwards.

However, imo for the ganking phase of the game :ElderParasite: provides a a much greater benefit than :Portalkey: since :ElderParasite: actually gives a dps boost for the same cost.

What do you think about :ElderParasite: before :ShrunkenHead: and leaving :Portalkey: for last or perhaps not at all if you dont need the initiation?

Perhaps im just not using the :Portalkey: correctly, but to me it just seems like a waste of 2150 gold since you dont need it to land your stun and :ElderParasite: gives an awsome dps boost for more powerful ganks as well as lifesteal so you can jungle farm / regen easier.

Your thoughts?

If you are going to recomend :Portalkey:, then I'd appreciate some reasoning on why it is better and perhaps some tips for using it better in the ganking phase. Thanks

a2tall
11-11-2010, 12:28 PM
there is no standard build for any hero, its always situational lets say they have 5 casters i doubt u want to be in a team fight with elder, a shruken would be best first. or if you are neded for initiation than you may need pk first.

PrestonLee
11-11-2010, 12:35 PM
In general if you don't have a reliable initiator, then getting a portal key is a good option for Hammerstorm as he immediately gets right in their face and can stun and do his thing.

Otherwise, if you do have a reliable initiator then Portal Key is pretty much a waste of money like you said in my opinion and he's better off getting items that make him a more reliable carry/semi-carry.

Bladeknight5
11-11-2010, 12:48 PM
Hammerstorm isn't a really good initiator, Get Shrunken first always on Hammer.

DemoniWaari
11-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Don't get elder if you're going to initiate, you'll get obliterated in a heartbeat. I'd recommend going for PK if you get a nice farm to start with, so you can get it early.
Though if you're struggling you might want to consider shrunken or atleast that +10 str part (can't remember the name...).

Puppeteer
11-11-2010, 01:20 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Elder Parasite on any hero. PK, Shrunken is the obvious combo, perhaps with a Breastplate following for your attack speed and top it all off with a Behemoths Heart. Most items are situational on heroes, but try to avoid Elder Parasite because as stated, against competent players you're going to fall very quickly.

blazian88
11-11-2010, 01:28 PM
What is the combo? Ult, pk, stun, auto?

Bladeknight5
11-11-2010, 01:33 PM
What is the combo? Ult, pk, stun, auto?

Yeah that would be the combo but you shouldn't be looking to hammerstorm to initiate your team fights.

Puppeteer
11-11-2010, 01:36 PM
It'd depend how much follow up you have and how good your team is at aoe stuns. If you blink and stun and you find your Pyro, Witch, Andro, Jester or whatever are following up with good stuns and you have the enemy team locked down with Crowd Control. You can save popping the ult and shrunken until at least 2 of the 5 enemies have broken the CC and setting up a quick defence.

If you're the only aoe stun on the team, it's time to PK, shrunken, ult, stun and HAMMERTIME. It entirely depends on the enemies abilities and how they synergise against you and your allies abilities and how they synergise with you. The more auto attacks inbetween Crowd Control the more damage.

The level 16 Pebbles combo if he can't chuck to your carry, for instance, is usually PK, auto attack, chuck, auto attack, stun, auto attack x2/x3.

Imagine that game sense with a team of allied stuns. Hammerstorm's potential DPS is ridiculous.

ZyV
11-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Shrunken head or portal key first, depending what your team needs most.

Then, if you REALLY want to buy an elder parasite, DON'T do it, and buy Insanitarius instead.

siknoz
11-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Can watch this if you want, went shrunken then ep, did pretty well with it. Like everyone said tho, all situational.

18470067

rightclick
11-11-2010, 03:53 PM
I always go portal key first asap, then shrunken head

from there you can choose from a lot of other items, I rarely make EP

Pandabro
11-11-2010, 04:49 PM
Yeah that would be the combo but you shouldn't be looking to hammerstorm to initiate your team fights.

Why not? It's basically the same as Pestilence initiating, AOE stun which sets other players up nicely to follow up with their aoe damage abilities. Sure it's not Behemoth or Pharaoh initiating but when you don't have a lot of initiation possibilities Hammer can work just fine.

As far as build order it's highly situational. Obviously Shrunken head is a great pick up 90% of the time. EP makes his ulti do a TON of damage but you should never pick it up until AFTER your Shrunken head otherwise you are just asking to get disabled and evaporated by nukes.

Ndie_Jaehoon
11-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Hammerstorm isn't a really good initiator, Get Shrunken first always on Hammer.

You are so wrong in many ways.

Hammerstorm is one of the best intiators without portal key since he has a range aoe stun.

With pkey, Hammerstorm is one of the most best intiators since he has a aoe stun that is ranged as well, So you can initiate on ppl 2000yrds away, etc.

Hammerstorm is a better being built as an initiator than carry.
Hammercarry can easily get countered by purge/harder carries

Hammerstorm is initiator/semicarry , but if your team has other means of initiating (Magmus,Behe,Pesti,etc.) you can go carry since too much initiation would suck without dmg,

But if your team needs a carry and a initiator, :hamm: should prioritize being initiator 1st. Thus :Portalkey:

Fetyukov
11-11-2010, 06:27 PM
the right way to do it in 95% of the games you will ever play.
:Steamboots::ShrunkenHead::Portalkey::Insanitarius ::SymbolOfRage::Riftshards:

Of course, if you can get past whispering helm then you're farming too hard and not getting involved enough, you're in an em game (get out and stop playing these), you somehow broke the 70 minute barrier, or your clantag is eG.

justification:

:Steamboots: Well, I guess teleportboots if you're making a pushing team, but most of the time you shouldn't be farming hard enough to need these. Striders aren't too useful as you need to chase, you don't need the bonus ms from ghost marchers (you have galvanize) and some extra mana for a hammer works well with you, so go for steams.
:ShrunkenHead: To prevent ult purging, CC and added hp and damage.
:Portalkey: Hammerstorm REQUIRES utility, necessary item, no exceptions.
:Insanitarius: Best source of dmg and ias for a melee carry, awesome item.
:SymbolOfRage: Beastheart alternative if you feel you can't handle the active ability. Either way, it pounds the **** out of everything and has a good build-up.
:Riftshards: Why not, more dps and a chance to get a massive crit with your ult is never a bad thing.

[edit] I forgot to say, the only variable about this build is pk or sh first. I prefer pk, but it depends on your playstyle.

yyr_
11-11-2010, 07:13 PM
^ I like that build except i would probably end up making an EP instead of symbol just necause after steamboots/blink/bkb/insan the game should be over long before the crit/SoR :D

Fetyukov
11-11-2010, 07:30 PM
^ I like that build except i would probably end up making an EP instead of symbol just necause after steamboots/blink/bkb/insan the game should be over long before the crit/SoR :D

Debatable. I think elder leaves something to be desired, and combined with insan makes you far too fragile, dieing after initiation.

Hammerstorm is in the unique position of initiator/carry, with priority #1 being leaping into teamfights headfirst. Often times you'll be the first one attacked, and elder/insan combined is just too much damage to take (even with shrunken head) without a behemoths heart, leaving your carry abilities dead in the water.

Plus, with an agi gain of 2 (not great, but it works) and insanitarius you should be hitting fast enough in the higher levels, and competing with harder carry's you're far better off with the armour, lifesteal and str from SoR. Even whispering helm is better than elder imho.

rea
11-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Elders is great if you grab it early. If i've got a good farm up i'll usually be grabbing it before T2 boots. Why? Lets you farm neuts a lot more effectivly - gives you a speed boost to get away with your galvinise if **** hits the fan. However i'm usually in the farming lane (legion bot/hellbourne top) with a good teammate so we're never short on kill money.

Ndie_Jaehoon
11-11-2010, 08:08 PM
:Steamboots: Well, I guess teleportboots if you're making a pushing team, but most of the time you shouldn't be farming hard enough to need these. Striders aren't too useful as you need to chase, you don't need the bonus ms from ghost marchers (you have galvanize) and some extra mana for a hammer works well with you, so go for steams.
:ShrunkenHead: To prevent ult purging, CC and added hp and damage.
:Portalkey: Hammerstorm REQUIRES utility, necessary item, no exceptions.
:Insanitarius: Best source of dmg and ias for a melee carry, awesome item.
:SymbolOfRage: Beastheart alternative if you feel you can't handle the active ability. Either way, it pounds the **** out of everything and has a good build-up.
:Riftshards: Why not, more dps and a chance to get a massive crit with your ult is never a bad thing.



After Treads, blink, bkb, and some dps luxuries like :Insanitarius: (:WhisperingHelm:/:ElderParasite:),

I would recommend :DaemonicBreastplate as it gives you alot of armor to witstand enemy rightclicks, gives good IAS for more swings with ult up, -5 armor aura so that you and your teams main carry deal more physical dps, and IAS aura to help push/increase ias of your allies. Hammerstorm is a strong candidate for picking it up on the team since he is gonna be in the thick of battles.

yyr_
11-11-2010, 10:16 PM
Debatable. I think elder leaves something to be desired, and combined with insan makes you far too fragile, dieing after initiation.

Hammerstorm is in the unique position of initiator/carry, with priority #1 being leaping into teamfights headfirst. Often times you'll be the first one attacked, and elder/insan combined is just too much damage to take (even with shrunken head) without a behemoths heart, leaving your carry abilities dead in the water.

Plus, with an agi gain of 2 (not great, but it works) and insanitarius you should be hitting fast enough in the higher levels, and competing with harder carry's you're far better off with the armour, lifesteal and str from SoR. Even whispering helm is better than elder imho.

Fair call. I was just saying from a price perspective, if the game is expected to go for another 10-15 minutes it would be better to make one of the other items (Breastplate, heart, SoR)

EZoffBAM
11-11-2010, 10:34 PM
With pkey, Hammerstorm is one of the most best intiators since he has a aoe stun that is ranged as well, So you can initiate on ppl 2000yrds away, etc.



i'm always build pk on my hammer but you'll fine that initiating on people 2000 yards away tends to mean that you'll be the only one attacking him for the next few seconds.

But yes, it's a great use of gold for initation, escape, chasing whatever. positioning is always invaluable in-game and you may find his cleave hitting more people too with a pk. Furthermore, it's not like he needs many items do deal a s**tload of damage.

Ndie_Jaehoon
11-12-2010, 12:24 AM
i'm always build pk on my hammer but you'll fine that initiating on people 2000 yards away tends to mean that you'll be the only one attacking him for the next few seconds.

But yes, it's a great use of gold for initation, escape, chasing whatever. positioning is always invaluable in-game and you may find his cleave hitting more people too with a pk. Furthermore, it's not like he needs many items do deal a s**tload of damage.

I agree with you all the way

Except that I prolly wouldnt find my cleave thing hitting more people since I dont have a single point in it til lvl 18-21....

Bladeknight5
11-12-2010, 03:30 AM
You are so wrong in many ways.

Hammerstorm is one of the best intiators without portal key since he has a range aoe stun.

With pkey, Hammerstorm is one of the most best intiators since he has a aoe stun that is ranged as well, So you can initiate on ppl 2000yrds away, etc.

Hammerstorm is a better being built as an initiator than carry.
Hammercarry can easily get countered by purge/harder carries

Hammerstorm is initiator/semicarry , but if your team has other means of initiating (Magmus,Behe,Pesti,etc.) you can go carry since too much initiation would suck without dmg,

But if your team needs a carry and a initiator, :hamm: should prioritize being initiator 1st. Thus :Portalkey:

Semi-Carry? He's a hard carry good sir.

If your in the team pick screen and you need an innitiator, you shouldn't pick hammerstorm. People like :keep: :temp: :hell: :mali: :behe: :chro: are all heroes you could pick to Initiate fights better than Hammerstorm.

Can he initiate? Yeah. Is he as good as you all are praising him to be? Nope.

Disco_Bison
11-12-2010, 04:21 AM
The port key is way more about ganking than about straight up team fights. He can't initiate, the aoe just isn't big enough. In a ganking scenario though, the pk is invaluable. I would only skip a port key if my team had no other carry and I had to step in as a carry(providing they had strong enough gankers so that I didn't need to help).

Ndie_Jaehoon
11-12-2010, 06:32 AM
Semi-Carry? He's a hard carry good sir.

If your in the team pick screen and you need an innitiator, you shouldn't pick hammerstorm. People like :keep: :temp: :hell: :mali: :behe: :chro: are all heroes you could pick to Initiate fights better than Hammerstorm.

Can he initiate? Yeah. Is he as good as you all are praising him to be? Nope.

Thank you for correcting me,

Of course he is outclassed by the above listed hero for they outrange him in AoE and do not require a target to click on,

What I was not thinking of at the time, was that blink was truly a ganking tool on Hammerstorm, as say pebbles, in that you blink up on some guy (giving them no time to decently position themselves) and stun and dmg follows up. so I think I should have typed that Hammerstorm is a gank(not large teamfight) initiator/semicarry.

Now for him being a hardcarry, no.
He might have 150% dmg increase but that is not 100% uptime, and since bkb will last usually 5 seconds, you can sure bet that the ult will last 5secs in most teamfights before it being purged off, living you gimped vs real carries who have carrying abilities are always up, while you only have carrying capabilities for a limited time. Also lack of strong mobility/non ranged play a factor in carrying. Also Hammerstorm is not a hardcarry in that he does not need ridiculous farm to do large dmg early-midgame, hammer ult at lvl 6 is 100% dmg buff, which is quite large earlygame where the healthpools are smaller, but the longer the game goes, the weaker hammer's swings look since 150% at rank 3 is not as big a impact as 100% at lvl 6., and heroes tend to get higher healthpools/more armor, so having consistent high dps > short outburst of obscenely high dps.

Hammerstorm is strong without much farm, thus ppl tend to get blink/bkb for midgame, he can have bkb/treads/blink and still be a wrecking force, while lategame even with large items, there are much harder carries that will outshine his dps in every aspect (chronos/madman/scout,etc.)

m00p
11-12-2010, 07:41 AM
Players forget he can also play a good roamer :D

Sen
11-12-2010, 07:52 AM
Please don't get Elder on Hammer.


Cheers

m00p
11-12-2010, 07:56 AM
Elder is pretty good actually. Provided you have a survivability item like Helm, Shrunken or Behe heart :P

Theburned
11-12-2010, 07:59 AM
there is no standard build for any hero, its always situational lets say they have 5 casters i doubt u want to be in a team fight with elder, a shruken would be best first. or if you are neded for initiation than you may need pk first.

I like the life steal build
ring of the teacher in lane
steamboots
abyssal skull elder parasite
insanitarius giving you above 100 damage for 2750g if not countered ulti it's awesome. then getting elder parasite after that building a behemoth heart for about 70 more damage and extreme tankyness.. by this it should end, but if it's still on get a daemonic breastplate and end it.
though portal key is probably a nice item to get too. it's also a chance they will dispel the elder parasite with nullfire right? (correct me if I'm wrong here)

Theburned
11-12-2010, 08:03 AM
Thank you for correcting me,

Of course he is outclassed by the above listed hero for they outrange him in AoE and do not require a target to click on,

What I was not thinking of at the time, was that blink was truly a ganking tool on Hammerstorm, as say pebbles, in that you blink up on some guy (giving them no time to decently position themselves) and stun and dmg follows up. so I think I should have typed that Hammerstorm is a gank(not large teamfight) initiator/semicarry.

Now for him being a hardcarry, no.
He might have 150% dmg increase but that is not 100% uptime, and since bkb will last usually 5 seconds, you can sure bet that the ult will last 5secs in most teamfights before it being purged off, living you gimped vs real carries who have carrying abilities are always up, while you only have carrying capabilities for a limited time. Also lack of strong mobility/non ranged play a factor in carrying. Also Hammerstorm is not a hardcarry in that he does not need ridiculous farm to do large dmg early-midgame, hammer ult at lvl 6 is 100% dmg buff, which is quite large earlygame where the healthpools are smaller, but the longer the game goes, the weaker hammer's swings look since 150% at rank 3 is not as big a impact as 100% at lvl 6., and heroes tend to get higher healthpools/more armor, so having consistent high dps > short outburst of obscenely high dps.

Hammerstorm is strong without much farm, thus ppl tend to get blink/bkb for midgame, he can have bkb/treads/blink and still be a wrecking force, while lategame even with large items, there are much harder carries that will outshine his dps in every aspect (chronos/madman/scout,etc.)

for me he seems like best played in this order

ganker>roamer>initiator>semi-carry with a cd making him temporary hard carry (I would say this is the PuB build before peoples start countering you.)>support

Milktog
11-12-2010, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the replies.

So to sum up, and correct me if I'm wrong, Portal key is good for ganking becuase it allows you to get more hits in.

Elder Parasite gives the same benefit to ganking, but makes you squishy and even with a shrunken head later on you dont want to be jumping in to fights being all squishy.

Extra farm you could be getting from an early parasite is not needed as you should be out ganking and you aren't a hard carry anyways so what are you doing afk rice farming?

Is this the general consensus? Seems logical and helpful to me so ty, but do correct me if i've summed somthing up wrong.

I would like to add that even though insanitarius is a good item for hammer, you are far better off farming for a shield breaker instead. Reducing enemy resistance is far better on shuch a high physical damage dealer than adding 100 more damage and some attack speed.

Here's some numbers in case you are skeptical...

take 350 as starting point (about how much damage you deal with just shrunken and steams with lvl 3 ult)

With insanitarius you get about +100 damge with ult, and the 35 attack speed gives effectively 21% more damge (I tested this in practice mode and did the calculations)
so... Insanitarius effectively gives you 450 * 1.21 = 544.5 damage

Average armor is about 6 at this point in the game which is roughly 30%, so your actual damage output with insanitarius is 544.5 * .7 = 381.15

Your actual damage with sheild breaker is 410 (350 + 60 with 0% reduction)

You get 30 more actual damage from sheild breaker than you do from insanitarius without the need to toggle the item on and off.

Insanitarius does give armor and bonus hp, both of which hammer wont need as he'll be magic immune anyways and galvanize will give you more than sufficient armor.

Insanitarius is cheaper, but the bennefits are much greater for sheild breaker. So only get insanitarius first if you are really really strapped for cash, but even then its probably better to aim for a sheild breaker.

Also as stated by others, Hammer is not really a carry. His priority should be to do as much damage as possible while in his 5 second window of immunity, i therefore have no qualms with getting a damage orb instead of lifesteal.

Still skeptical? Go here...http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...ad.php?t=14646 (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=14646)

rightclick
11-12-2010, 02:40 PM
carrying on hammerstorm is pretty dumb

he shines as a ganker/roamer/initiator who can put out SOME autoattack damage even without items

steam/phase boots+chalice+power suppply->PK->shrunken head is the correct build 90% of the time

GRAGTHUL
11-12-2010, 03:24 PM
you dont need elder at all get insan

Ndie_Jaehoon
11-12-2010, 06:26 PM
Thanks for the replies.

So to sum up, and correct me if I'm wrong, Portal key is good for ganking becuase it allows you to get more hits in.

Elder Parasite gives the same benefit to ganking, but makes you squishy and even with a shrunken head later on you dont want to be jumping in to fights being all squishy.

Extra farm you could be getting from an early parasite is not needed as you should be out ganking and you aren't a hard carry anyways so what are you doing afk rice farming?

Is this the general consensus? Seems logical and helpful to me so ty, but do correct me if i've summed somthing up wrong.

I would like to add that even though insanitarius is a good item for hammer, you are far better off farming for a shield breaker instead. Reducing enemy resistance is far better on shuch a high physical damage dealer than adding 100 more damage and some attack speed.

Here's some numbers in case you are skeptical...

take 350 as starting point (about how much damage you deal with just shrunken and steams with lvl 3 ult)

With insanitarius you get about +100 damge with ult, and the 35 attack speed gives effectively 21% more damge (I tested this in practice mode and did the calculations)
so... Insanitarius effectively gives you 450 * 1.21 = 544.5 damage

Average armor is about 6 at this point in the game which is roughly 30%, so your actual damage output with insanitarius is 544.5 * .7 = 381.15

Your actual damage with sheild breaker is 410 (350 + 60 with 0% reduction)

You get 30 more actual damage from sheild breaker than you do from insanitarius without the need to toggle the item on and off.

Insanitarius does give armor and bonus hp, both of which hammer wont need as he'll be magic immune anyways and galvanize will give you more than sufficient armor.

Insanitarius is cheaper, but the bennefits are much greater for sheild breaker. So only get insanitarius first if you are really really strapped for cash, but even then its probably better to aim for a sheild breaker.

Also as stated by others, Hammer is not really a carry. His priority should be to do as much damage as possible while in his 5 second window of immunity, i therefore have no qualms with getting a damage orb instead of lifesteal.

Still skeptical? Go here...http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/sh...ad.php?t=14646 (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=14646)


Pretty much you summed it up correctly. But The appeal of insanitarius is that it increases base dmg (which his ult revolves around) since the active gives str, while shield breaker does not.

But yeah, overall you right on all the parts you said.:mora:

Katboi
11-12-2010, 07:28 PM
Elder is a dominance item on every hero but Chronos.

If you're raping face; and you feel it's SAFE to get a Parasite, get one, it's hat tricks waiting to happen on Hammer. In more difficult situations, a BKB is better.

PK is good on everyone. Lol. <3

Milktog
11-13-2010, 12:04 AM
Pretty much you summed it up correctly. But The appeal of insanitarius is that it increases base dmg (which his ult revolves around) since the active gives str, while shield breaker does not.

But yeah, overall you right on all the parts you said.:mora:

I accounted for the base damage in my calculation. Insanitarius does not give 100 damge except on hammer at lvl 3 ult.

TRYTROUSERS
11-13-2010, 12:19 PM
in most games, portal key is the thing to get IMO. once you get portal hammerstorm becomes one of the best aggressive heros in the game. if you have another hero who can dive in with you like bubbles or hag or someone with a key you can wreck key heros badly before fights even start.

DPS items are ok on hammer, but honestly I think you'll get more kills/assists just blink stunning for your team. plus, all it takes is one source of purge and you're useless till you get bkb. And if they have an electrician or gauntlet (heros who can purge through bkb) you are even useless after that.

Anyone ever rush heart on this guy? I used to do that in dota pubs back when heart was 2% health a second and the best item in the game, was pretty rape.

`Phire
11-13-2010, 01:26 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Elder Parasite on any hero. PK, Shrunken is the obvious combo, perhaps with a Breastplate following for your attack speed and top it all off with a Behemoths Heart. Most items are situational on heroes, but try to avoid Elder Parasite because as stated, against competent players you're going to fall very quickly.

:hamm: is the exception though, with his ult combined with parasite you easily out do the dps difference on you

yyr_
11-14-2010, 06:09 PM
Insanitarius does give armor and bonus hp, both of which hammer wont need as he'll be magic immune anyways and galvanize will give you more than sufficient armor.

Galvanise should be used for your teammates so you may not have armour when you need it. Having 2200 hp with 8 armour as a melee hero at like 40+ minutes is not a great place to be in.

Insanitarius is cheaper, but the bennefits are much greater for sheild breaker. So only get insanitarius first if you are really really strapped for cash, but even then its probably better to aim for a sheild breaker.

Comparison below.

Also as stated by others, Hammer is not really a carry. His priority should be to do as much damage as possible while in his 5 second window of immunity, i therefore have no qualms with getting a damage orb instead of lifesteal.

You could farm up insan + parasite in the time it tanks to farm up a shieldbreaker. This would have significantly more DPS and the about the same survivability because half of parasite will be during magic immunity and your DPS is stupid ontop of lifesteal. Also 5 armour and 500hp means your EHP is the same as that as shieldbreaker if not better. Making it pretty much a better build.


I did the calculations at level 20

bkb/steamboots/portalkey/chalice on each as well.

Shieldbreaker - 431 damage, 0.9 S/A, 478*reduction DPS
- Uses an orb
- costs 4400
- Debuffs target
- 2200hp, 9 armour total

Breastplate - 371 damage, 0.7 S/A, 530*reduction DPS
- Doesnt use an orb
- costs 5500
- Debuffs all nearby targets
- Buffs all nearby friendlies
- Gives you +15 armour
- 2200hp, 23 armour

Insan - 476 damage, 0.75 S/A, 634*reduction DPS
- Doesnt use an orb
- Costs 2750
- Gives ~500 hp
- Gives 5 armour
- Toggle to save
- Lose life over time
- 2700hp, 14 armour

Insan + Elder - 476 damage, 0.55 SA, 865*reduction DPS
- 17% lifesteal
- costs 4600
- Gives ~500hp
- Gives 5 armour
- Toggles to save
- 426 MS without galvanise (save for teammates)
- Most of elders will be during magic immunity
- Take "no" damage during magic immunity due to lifesteal
- take 17% more damage.
- Same if not better EHP then shieldbreaker.
- 2700hp, 14 armour

Crit - 446 damage per hit, 0.9 S/A, 1.28% bonus damage, 634*reduction
- Doesnt use an orb
- Costs ~5500
- With 1 crit + 2 normal attacks after blink+stun you deal 2K+ damage to a single target and 1K cleave damage, decimating a team during a stun.
- Digusting burst damage (1K+ hits)
- 2200hp, 9 armour total

For damage reductions, you can compare the damage reductions for each of the builds if you want but we care more about DPS at the moment.

6 armour = 26% damage reduction
- Shield: 478 ----> 478
- DB: 530 -------> 498
- Insan: 634 ----> 469
- Crit: 634 ----> 469
- Insan+EP: 865-> 640

Outcome
1st Insan+EP
2nd DB/Crit
3rd Insan/Shield

Shield gives your carry a shieldbreaker /IF/ they target the same person, but insan gives more survivability, a toggle to save yourself and costs much much less (65% of the cost).

11 armour = 40%
- Shield: 478 ----> 359
- DB: 530 -------> 368
- Insan: 634 ----> 380
- Crit: 634 ----> 380
- Insan+EP: 865-> 519

Outcome
1st Insan+EP
2nd DB/Crit
3rd Insan
4th Shield

DP is better than insan because its aura's are awesome. Crit is better because of burst.If you went by price effectiveness DB/Crit would actually be third.

16 armour = 49%
- Shield: 478 ----> 296
- DB: 530 -------> 318
- Insan: 634 ----> 323
- Crit: 634 ----> 323
- Insan+EP: 865-> 441

Outcome
1st Insan+EP
2nd DB/Crit
3rd Insan/Shield

DP is better than insan because its aura's are awesome.

21 armour = 56%
- Shield: 478 ----> 253
- DB: 530 -------> 270
- Insan: 634 ----> 278
- Crit: 634 ----> 278
- Insan+EP: 865-> 380

Outcome
1st Insan+EP
2nd DB/Crit
3rd Insan/Shield

Same deal as last time.

Shieldbreaker is probably the weakest of the 5 builds. EP+Insan is easily the strongest for carrying but Breastplate takes a close second due to how awesome the auras are. I did use the proper damage reductions for BP and SB, it was a pain, and yes i should have used excel instead of a calculator ><

Milktog
11-15-2010, 12:08 PM
Shieldbreaker is probably the weakest of the 5 builds. EP+Insan is easily the strongest for carrying but Breastplate takes a close second due to how awesome the auras are. I did use the proper damage reductions for BP and SB, it was a pain, and yes i should have used excel instead of a calculator ><

Wow. Thanks for doing all that.

My hang up with Elder and Insanitarius is that i thought we were trying to avoid being squishy no?

Also would you mind just doing elder parasite as a calculation? Because i believe if we are talking just straight damage/gold spent elder parasite wins plus it gives some nice move speed for chasing, and I am interested to see how it compares to insanitarius and shield breaker by itself to see if it is better to get it first or save and get insanitarius first.

Ancorehraq
11-15-2010, 07:45 PM
You really don't want to be chasing with a melee carry. There are way too many possibilities for kiting/juking/stunning. Instead, front-load your damage with blink (comedy option: shroud)/riftshards/insanitarius, or prevent enemies from doing the same to your team with the teamwork plate.

Elder parasite gives away too much reaction time. It's easy to do something when you see hammerstorm activating parasite and running towards you. Not so easy if you get caught out of position by a blink.

Maybe I'm just too blink-happy, but I value initiation over raw damage.