What's the deal with latency arguments? [Archive]

Loki

10-31-2010, 10:33 AM

I've seen it happen a couple of times that teams fight over which server the matches are going to be played on. Again, the recent game with eG vs IPL, people were arguing that the server was wrong.

I don't really know what was going on. What is the problem? In a 3 match setup, you give one team a match on a server of their choice, the other team a match on a server of THEIR choice, and then you make a roll for the third match.

Seems fair to me. What is there to fight about?

tkothethrill

10-31-2010, 10:35 AM

fair to have a roll for the third server? i see nothing fair about that..all based on luck

Loki

10-31-2010, 10:48 AM

A coin toss is fair in the sense that both results are equally likely. That doesn't mean the winner doesn't have the advantage, it means that overall teams get a fair chance to win. It's more fair than saying let's play 2 games in favor of the best team.

(Unrelated - whoever wins the roll should get the Legion side for the third match imho.)

WaRDeN

10-31-2010, 10:56 AM

Playing USW vs euro, it's either a slight advantage to USW if you play on USE, or a massive advantage to EU if you play on EU. I think it's better to play with a slight advantage to one team than roll for massive advantages, it just makes it into a luck-fest. But that's just my opinion. That's just a general idea, IDK what IPL or that match circumstances are.

Hsssh

10-31-2010, 11:03 AM

Most drama comes from the fact that there is no consistency. Tournament starts, rules state that for example USW vs EU plays of USE, yet MSI gets EU server when playing against xFin. Same thing in Gamereplays finals, bo5 EG vs empr, for some reason first three games are on USE servers and fourth on EU server while whole tournament team were switching servers each game. There are many more examples of this.

Frankly i doubt that many games had different outcomes due to servers but i`m *****ing about this because solid rules are neaded while now if some top players starts crying in lobby then admins give him server/hellbourne advantage.

rf3ng

10-31-2010, 11:14 AM

It's really a bit more complicated than that, and Warden explained it pretty well.

You have to consider two things: minimizing luck, and minimizing advantages.

While your method will minimize advantage for either team, you're increasing the luck factor by a lot. You can't just choose servers that each team wants. As an example, you have a Euro against Aus. Aus probably pings like 500 to Euro, and vice versa to Aus. So your games are going to be decided by a coinflip, instead of actually playing the game, assuming both teams are the same level, or even if the skill-level difference isn't able to overcome the lag.

So in that scenario, the logical case would probably to find the middle ground where both teams can play on equal ping levels. In the case above, it seems like the reasonable thing to do would be to play 1 on USW, 1 on USE and then coinflip between USW/USE.

Of course, you have shady gray areas like the one in EG vs IPL. You have to decide between giving an advantage and increasing the luck factor. There's going to be a massive advantage for whoever plays on their own server. Therefore, you're going to have a Bo3 decided by luck, which works in favor of IPL because EG is obviously the better team. So in essence, by using a "fair" scenario statistically, you're going to actually be giving the advantage to IPL (because they now have a 50% chance to win whereas with even ping they have like 20-30% chance to win - as an example, I don't know how good they really are).

But if instead you try to minimize luck, you end up giving the advantage to EG by playing on USW both games.

It's a tough call for the referees. Either way, a team is going to feel cheated, and whether or not the GG admins made the right call I have no idea.

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 11:49 AM

Before the Match
1. Teams in different regions should decide on a neutral host location that is suitable for the match (server with the overall lowest ping for both teams).
2. Teams in the same region should use a server located in that region.
3. If the teams cannot agree upon a neutral host location then the server will be decided by a match admin.

As you can see, we're not running on a 1 home 1 away 1 roll system ( which some people for some reason are deluded about and kept drawing football analogies ). It was more about reducing the ping difference to the most tolerable lvl for both teams for the fairest ground to play on.

Pings on USW: Only member on eG below 100 ping was pokedex, the rest were pinging around 100~150, while IPL were pinging around 225.

Pings on AUS: Every member on IPL were below 100 ping, with one member even below 30ms, while eG were all pinging high 2xx, with se`busca on 300~350ms.

Also, people need to stop comparing this with past incidences from Honcast tourneys / whatever tournaments in the past. Different tournament, different rules.

The_Thrill

10-31-2010, 11:51 AM

In a league there would be no question.

Game 1: Home Team
Game 2: Visiting Team
Game 3: Home Team

But in a tournament with no real seeds (at least thats what it feels like looking at the bottom right bracket) the rules have the last say. Ultimately, it's up to the teams the iron these problems out, and it would have been much more enjoyable to see eG play on the AUS server. Everyone knows eG is an amazing team, probably the best in the world right now; but they could have really "won over" a lot of viewers/players by just allowing IPL to play a game on their server and then winning on it.

The way it was at the end, IPL just didn't give a crap anymore, and it showed in their total lack of enthusiasm both before and during the game.

Loki

10-31-2010, 12:04 PM

That's true. In the case of Aus vs EU however, there are no real 'in-between' servers, so you end up having a big difference either way. That's why I was wondering about Australia+US. But I see your point now.

The only real way to solve this is to introduce artificial lag for a team. Every player would get roughly the same ping. You could use a mechanic like added_lag=maximum(0, avg(otherteamsping)-avg(yourteamsping)). Either the client or the server could take care of that, quite easily. Then you can pick the server in the middle, which is the smallest amount of lag you can get in a completely fair game.
Is this food for the Suggestion forum? Or is there some a flaw in this approach?

kuroteH

10-31-2010, 12:32 PM

Chu -1 for being a "dodger."

DrewCarry

10-31-2010, 12:45 PM

people are such *****es when it comes to server choices. If it went by average ping, ICE would always be playing on USE because Jah is in HA, but that is not the case. Eu's complain that 180 ping is too much, but we all sit around 180 ping to EU servers.

Not sure why EG was crying about playing on AUS server considering its 1/1/roll. Bunch of babies that could of beat IPL on any server, they just wanna cry about ping.

Bdiz

10-31-2010, 12:57 PM

[real talk]Ultimately it was up to the admins discretion, and most teams are going to fighting over servers and getting admins involved simply due to how much money is on the line.[/real talk]

chu

10-31-2010, 01:21 PM

ping disputes are bound to happen as one team is always going to be at a disadvantage between distant teams

In our current match vs IPL, as much as I'd love to play the games on fair ground, it just wasn't an option. On USW server, we get about 100~ ping advantage. On AUS server, they get about 200~ ping advantage.

As for myself, I was pinging 280~300 in AUS. Am I suppose to simply agree to play a match with a ping I've never played with in my life? Against people pinging 50~80?

And funny thing is, when we were doing pingchecks on USW server, they magically ping +50~100 more than their usual! Some anonymous user gave me a heads-up that IPL allegedly faked higher ping by turning on torrents while doing pingcheck in their match, but I never thought they'd do it again here.

Obviously I'm gonna make my own dispute, as did IPL (one guy mostly, annoying pos whiner cried with every breath) to the admins. They had the ultimate final say, so I let them decide. And they decided on USW at this point.

Did we bluntly demand a server advantage? No, we felt bad about getting another ping advantage (even after their little ping scam), so we offered to play on a JPN server as it should be closer to AUS than to USW, even after admins have already decided on playing second match on USW. IPL however had worse pings to it somehow, so we wasted another 15~ minutes there. Then they decide to waste more time in eG clan channel making retarded comments like "man up and play in our turf", "stop dodging", only to give in after getting serious warning from admins. They host a game, then REFUSE to invite gosu gamer admins to the game(rofl??). Even after this clownage, we still felt bad and gave them another side advantage.

Lot of people seem to bring this up so I felt the need to provide full story from my perspective.

Fuga

10-31-2010, 02:00 PM

Renee Montoya

fraKCtal

10-31-2010, 02:02 PM

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 02:36 PM

IPL:
Cujo - 251
Wytaliba - 225
Doomdriver - 263
Bobo - 275
Jitters - 245

Average ping - ~252

eG:
busca - 127
yoda - 67
chu - 145
pokedex - 51
fuji - 77

Average ping - ~93

This was taken in game. I doubt they're gonna have torrents running right after first blooding pokedex. S_SienZ trying to make the numbers sound better than they really were. Lol at his shitty numbers.

The argument in chu's statement was that they turned on torrents DURING THE PINGCHECK. Once the server's decided only a moron would leave the torrents on.

And guess what, ping fluctuates, the numbers you provided, seen from ONE ping check during a cast, actually don't run too far from the numbers I have observed, by doing /pa a few times when i was actually in the 1st game and when they were testing the AUS server.

fraKCtal

10-31-2010, 02:49 PM

The argument in chu's statement was that they turned on torrents DURING THE PINGCHECK. Once the server's decided only a moron would leave the torrents on.

And guess what, ping fluctuates, the numbers you provided, seen from ONE ping check during a cast, actually don't run too far from the numbers I have observed, by doing /pa a few times when i was actually in the 1st game and when they were testing the AUS server.

No duh. And according to him they (eG) would have a ~100 ping advantage on a USW server. Add in the extra 50 for turning on torrents and you're at 150. Which they were at. In game. I doubt they were running torrents to **** with the pings.

Loki

10-31-2010, 02:52 PM

Reading what chu said about this, I think this specific match was just IPL getting angry for no reason. I thought it was weird in the first place that a team like eG would need to ***** about servers as much as people suggested.

I would like some feedback on this --

The only real way to solve this is to introduce artificial lag for a team. Every player would get roughly the same ping. You could use a mechanic like added_lag=maximum(0, avg(otherteamsping)-avg(yourteamsping)). Either the client or the server could take care of that, quite easily. Then you can pick the server in the middle, which is the smallest amount of lag you can get in a completely fair game.
Is this food for the Suggestion forum? Or is there some a flaw in this approach?

fraKCtal

10-31-2010, 03:14 PM

Reading what chu said about this, I think this specific match was just IPL getting angry for no reason. I thought it was weird in the first place that a team like eG would need to ***** about servers as much as people suggested.

I would like some feedback on this --

They had a reason to be mad. It wasn't really fair to them. I'm not going to be the one to say how to make it fair because I honestly don't know, but going into a match where you're already playing the #1 team in the world, but have to deal with crippling ping on top of that... Can't be too much fun.

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 03:21 PM

They had a reason to be mad. It wasn't really fair to them. I'm not going to be the one to say how to make it fair because I honestly don't know, but going into a match where you're already playing the #1 team in the world, but have to deal with crippling ping on top of that... Can't be too much fun.

You can't possibly suggest that as a relevant factor. Same logic works both ways. eG does not deserve special treatment coz they're the best, and other teams don't just for playing against eG.

fraKCtal

10-31-2010, 03:35 PM

You can't possibly suggest that as a relevant factor. Same logic works both ways. eG does not deserve special treatment coz they're the best, and other teams don't just for playing against eG.

All I was saying was they had a reason to be upset. There was no "fair" compromise for them.

I'm honestly not taking sides here. I don't know all the details. I just saw some numbers pop up in this thread that didnt match at all with what I saw. Then accusing a team of cheating with no proof at all is just low :/

knowitall

10-31-2010, 04:54 PM

everyone is forgetting that most AUS players are already adjusted to playing with 200+ ping because, like people have said, getting an AUS server is incredibly hard.

siknoz

10-31-2010, 06:11 PM

All I was saying was they had a reason to be upset. There was no "fair" compromise for them.

I'm honestly not taking sides here. I don't know all the details. I just saw some numbers pop up in this thread that didnt match at all with what I saw. Then accusing a team of cheating with no proof at all is just low :/

That's your problem in this argument. You look at a comprimise "FOR them". So yes, you are taking a side. The rules were followed, look at what the admin said,

1) Both teams decide on a server.
2) blah blah
3) If both teams can't decide an admin will

chu said

They had the ultimate final say, so I let them decide. And they decided on USW at this point.

So rule 3 was followed. How is that not fair? If theres a problem with the admin, then dispute and argue against the admin.

TDA101

10-31-2010, 06:35 PM

everyone is forgetting that most AUS players are already adjusted to playing with 200+ ping because, like people have said, getting an AUS server is incredibly hard.

How is that fair in anyway? Just because we are used to it doesn't mean it's fair for both teams. Being "used to" something doesn't take away entitlement to the rules and what's fair.

Aus on USW is 200+ average from about 10-20% leeway depending on the day.

The best I've ever got from a decent net cafe was just under 200 at about maybe 190?, the average sits around 250 and can get really bad until about 300. 300 is the max asking for trouble.

200 doesn't mean it's a winner as well vs a ping like 20-100. Ofc there are problems when we reverse the lag, but most of the impact is on the laning phase and last hits/harassing.

In game host ping is not equal to in game game ping.

JPN servers ping good, but some ISP's don't like them and most of the time, they have recently become crap.

Loki

10-31-2010, 07:04 PM

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=179014

vote yes please

knowitall

10-31-2010, 07:05 PM

How is that fair in anyway? Just because we are used to it doesn't mean it's fair for both teams. Being "used to" something doesn't take away entitlement to the rules and what's fair.

Aus on USW is 200+ average from about 10-20% leeway depending on the day.

The best I've ever got from a decent net cafe was just under 200 at about maybe 190?, the average sits around 250 and can get really bad until about 300. 300 is the max asking for trouble.

200 doesn't mean it's a winner as well vs a ping like 20-100. Ofc there are problems when we reverse the lag, but most of the impact is on the laning phase and last hits/harassing.

In game host ping is not equal to in game game ping.

JPN servers ping good, but some ISP's don't like them and most of the time, they have recently become crap.

US players rarely (if ever) play with more than 130 ping on USA servers. AUS players regularly play with 200+ ping.

Here's a quick example. Two fighters are training for a fight against each other. One regularly trains using a weighted vest while the other never uses one. The rules are dumb and force both fighters to use a weighted vest in the actual fight. Who has the advantage?

sharpcat

10-31-2010, 07:17 PM

Although I wouldn't put it past Cujo, Bobo/Doom/Wytaliba would definitely not turn on torrents in some ping test. That's just ****ing petty, and they're pretty cool guys.

Australians will always ping 200+ to USW.

If its Bo3, why not simply do one on each server, and then roll? It doesn't get more simple, or more fair.

CartEr`

10-31-2010, 07:32 PM

You can't possibly suggest that as a relevant factor. Same logic works both ways. eG does not deserve special treatment coz they're the best, and other teams don't just for playing against eG.

Actually there has been a scary amount of games where LOAD/eG simply had the better server choice over & over again.
There have been countless posts about LOAD/eG receiving advantageous treatment when it came to servers from various organizations including GosuGamers.
So considering your logic is seemingly flawed - supported by empirical evidence - you ought to pipe down.

People haven't been happy with the way GG organizes since DotA...

siknoz

10-31-2010, 07:41 PM

Actually there has been a scary amount of games where LOAD/eG simply had the better server choice over & over again.
There have been countless posts about LOAD/eG receiving advantageous treatment when it came to servers from various organizations including GosuGamers.
So considering your logic is seemingly flawed - supported by empirical evidence - you ought to pipe down.

People haven't been happy with the way GG organizes since DotA...

"Countless posts" ? I think you are stretching it a bit, I believe before this one there was only one other discussion about this. Unless you can actually provide that "empirical evidence".

Also the only reason you see posts about LOAD\EG(there has actually been disputes against other high ranking teams) is simply because they are LOAD\EG. I'm pretty confident if 2 no-name teams were to post about "unfair server advantages", they would get laughed at. I am sure that it happens quite a bit actually. So your logic is flawed too.

Lastly, if GG were such a terrible organizers, I don't think people would bother to sign up...

I also do not care for load\eg, gosugamers, or anyone else really, they can all die in a fire and I wouldn't lose any sleep tonight, I just find this rather funny.

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 07:42 PM

CartEr`

10-31-2010, 07:50 PM

True that other organisers decision making can't be held against you - but LOAD had some serious posts (vs MSI for example) where they repetitively had server advantage.

Fluxje

10-31-2010, 07:52 PM

You simply cannot defend the fact that two games in a row EG had below 100 ping, where most of them ping around 70.
The pings were taken when the game already started, so the comment about torrents is nonsense aside from the fact that it is just speculation.
From my personal experience EG always gets the better end of the stick, when they were loaded and when they were WHP. Australia is a good example, but Europe is too.
Americans tend to forget that Europe can have "big" latency's internally already.
People in the eastern part of Europe let alone Russia pings easily 100+ to a server in western europe f.e. Also spanish people got retarded routing, so they get high latency too.
If you are then forced to play on an USW server, where its clearly shown americans got a lower average ping is simply put unacceptable.
Either you play in a BO3 a game each of both teams chosing, and the last match you toss it/try fairest route. Or you toss for servers in a BO1.
Do not be surprised if competitive teams start refusing to play a game if behaviour like this continues.

BoxerSlayer

10-31-2010, 07:59 PM

Really sad to see that the best team out there, ALSO need server advantage. And chu talking about whining is laughable. Remember how much eG whined and whined and whined when they played msi and rolled for the last server. Stuff like: "if you cant even win this, you suck" etc etc.
Also comming with a completely unsupported accusation of cheating is really sad. Even if it is true, you really shouldnt be throwing stuff out there, without being able to back it up.

This is really a big problem and ruins a lot the fun scrubs like me have watching top tier hon gaming.
I think Loki is right on the money with the suggestion on artificial latency. Its currently the only way to make things truly fair.

Tyg

10-31-2010, 08:05 PM

good god it's funny hearing americans complain about having a ping above 100...

it's like watching a bunch of rich kids complaining about having to drive a ferrari instead of your bentley because it's not as comfortable to you whereas we Australians are driving a ****ing holden still kicking some ass.

america... **** yeah.... gonna save ... the mother****in day yeah!

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 08:43 PM

True that other organisers decision making can't be held against you - but LOAD had some serious posts (vs MSI for example) where they repetitively had server advantage.

Then don't ask me to pipe down. I personally couldn't care less about the server decisions in another tournament. BTW I don't think you're even remembering it right coz iirc they played 2 EU and 1 US against MSI.

CartEr`

10-31-2010, 09:23 PM

So far it's been 9-3 in US vs EU in WHP/LOAD/eG vs MSI. But no problem... you can search for your own website & prove yourself wrong.

S_SienZ

10-31-2010, 10:09 PM

So far it's been 9-3 in US vs EU in WHP/LOAD/eG vs MSI. But no problem... you can search for your own website & prove yourself wrong.

Well I'm sorry then I was under the impression that you were referring to the most recent CSN bo3 series and not their entire history. I'm honestly too lazy to look back that far. All I care is that I feel our reason was justified enough and was the best to call at the time.

chu

10-31-2010, 10:09 PM

when we played MSI, especially when I was inactive, we had 4~5 USW players, where they would get on average 120~150 ping on USE servers to begin with. You are horribly mistaken if you think 50% USE / 50% EU is actually the fairest way to go.

If we were to go with a server of choice for each team then roll for 3rd and assume that every time the roll would favor teams alternatively, we would host USW half the time vs euros, which is retarded.

Fluxje

10-31-2010, 10:15 PM

sHiNKz

10-31-2010, 10:26 PM

It is pretty obvious that the USA clans will only ever play if the game is completely in their favor, the NEED to have the ping advantage, the get the time advantage and then STILL COMPLAIN (chu) - Lol...

FujiApples

10-31-2010, 10:30 PM

Again this is nonsense. I can safely say that I got one of the best european routings to America, and I ping to USE servers on average of 155.
Half of my team pings above 200 to USE

you misunderstood him, hes talking about our usw players getting 120-150 ping to us east; in my experience, western european players would ping 150-180 on a good USE server

el_alcazar

10-31-2010, 10:40 PM

AhoyAndAvast

10-31-2010, 10:57 PM

Flow

10-31-2010, 11:04 PM

Wondering how many of you actually watched that game. eG wasn't complaining at all, but the other team was. They *****ed throughout the whole ****ing game, (actually just cujo he sounds like a total prick)

Dee

11-01-2010, 12:23 AM

I'm waiting for IPL's response to this whole debacle.

Quickly mind you, or haters will begin to hate.

`Jitters

11-01-2010, 03:42 AM

I'm waiting for IPL's response to this whole debacle.

Quickly mind you, or haters will begin to hate.

i like turtuls :bubb:

edit: lol utbg clan tag, shoutout to dance

Mellow

11-01-2010, 04:16 AM

Again this is nonsense. I can safely say that I got one of the best european routings to America, and I ping to USE servers on average of 155.
Half of my team pings above 200 to USE
What he's trying to say, is that USW and EU get similar ping to USE. If the servers were rotated USE/EU, the EU team would have a big advantage because one game they would have equal ping, the other game they would have superior ping. So, the USW team would have to pick a rotation of USW/EU, or all games have to be played on EU to be relatively fair. Of course the latter is preferrable since USW/EU will just be a lag whinefest

Fluxje

11-01-2010, 05:27 AM

you misunderstood him, hes talking about our usw players getting 120-150 ping to us east; in my experience, western european players would ping 150-180 on a good USE server

I did misunderstand. If you guys really try to find an honost way to find a proper server for both teams I suggest this: have you guys tried to ping once to an european NL server?

In dota I used to host tournament games for American/Asian teams, because I was the one with the best routing to both. It is because the central internet exchange hub of Europe is located in Amsterdam.

HiYa

11-01-2010, 08:02 AM

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROZEvZ0iM06AcvrixjiEDSlRS-HpbTutg_PEyKvhhkgeuvnKQ&t=1&usg=__HToOXQjOoU2JhcvQqldibdENiAM= (http://www.google.hr/imgres?imgurl=http://newmediachatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/can_t_we_all_just_get_along.jpg&imgrefurl=http://newmediachatter.com/tag/online-community&usg=__je0l0CEAOV89tMuRr4lJ_UiZMZA=&h=433&w=350&sz=30&hl=hr&start=0&sig2=rvF4K_cjou-7bdCfTzaAxA&zoom=1&tbnid=I95jEoknsLJ4WM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=111&ei=WKzOTJjpKpDKjAfroYHZBw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcan%2Bwe%2Bget%2Balong%26hl%3Dhr%26cl ient%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D844%26gbv%3D2%26t bs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=131&vpy=59&dur=413&hovh=137&hovw=111&tx=122&ty=117&oei=WKzOTJjpKpDKjAfroYHZBw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=36&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0)

HiYa

Bdiz

11-01-2010, 08:17 AM

Tournament admins should not leave it up to the players to decide which servers are used. No player wants to sit and argue for half an hour about which server is most fair. It seems like many admins let certain players walk all over them when it comes to this stuff. They need to be able to make a choice and stand by it. Consistency is what's important if you want fair rules.

There really isn't as much arguing as you think, it's just that people don't hear the stories of 0 argument matches where it takes literally 2 minutes to set up the servers/sides/rolls and whatnot, and anytime there is drama, everyone decides to throw their two cents in and blow the whole situation out of proportion. It took me and PapaDrayich ~2 minutes to get server/sides done, and when setting up our match vs ToY Gaming with their manager _Melk_, it was equally as easy. Australian servers seem to be the hardest, simply because of the high pings involved either way it goes (especially if USeast players are involved). Can we get some Hawaiian servers hosted by JAH'S HAWAIIAN PARADISE please? :D

RogerDodger

11-01-2010, 08:24 AM

IPL deserve whatever they get really, shady kids are just mad they don't get their way this time.

They played against GT with pings of 50 while GT had ~250 and one member with 350 ping, because one of their players 'mysteriously' pinged badly to every other server.

NoFriends

11-01-2010, 01:35 PM

This was a great read and i just have to add my 2cents.

Torrents turned on during the ping checks? Are you ****ing kidding me.

kippetje

11-01-2010, 01:56 PM

Why do people try so hard to find something bad about Eg?

Loki

11-01-2010, 07:26 PM

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=179014

vote yes please

Shameless bump. People will have no reason to fight if this happens.

MrShine

11-02-2010, 12:32 PM

Shameless bump. People will have no reason to fight if this happens.

This could be a solution, but only as a last resort if there is no location that sorta works. I still think finding a server with the most even for both sides seems like the best approach to try.

Throwing my hat into the drama machine, you can't really blame either team for complaining about ping if there is something on the line and they feel there is a clear advantage one way or another. In the end the Admins should have the final say, and that should be the deciding factor. If EG or whoever bullied their way through admins or refused to play after getting a ruling they didn't like, that's something else entirely.

If people have problems with server rules take it up with tourney admins, not the teams if they followed the rules.