More true sight items

[Karmashock]

I really don't care how they work, what they cost, whether they need recipes, or what their other attributes are... we need more. Doubtless 80 percent of the people on this board can come up with better ways of getting from point a to point b when it comes to item suggestions. But I'm fairly confident we need more true sight.


People are complaining about lots of stealth characters either because they do a lot of damage or because they have a really powerful long range shot or because they run really fast.

None of that is really the problem. The problem is that lots of teams find it difficult to keep vision on invisible characters. This makes them easy meat for these heros. Now I know some people are saying "well they're idiots and this serves them right for not placing wards etc." I actually agree with that to a point. But we still need more true sight items.

Obviously we don't want to make the feature useless. But some late game items with true sight would go a long way from what I can see to evening things out.

if they're expensive then that means that for the critical mid game invisible characters will be in the same position they're in now. But in the late game that feature might run into some problems as some high level characters have items that do not drop on death that none the less provide true sight.




In addition, for new characters we should have some that have true sight as an ability. Either in something that has to be activated, runs down, and has a cool down. Or as a persistent passive ability.


In General, let there be light.

[Netukka]

Not sure if you know it, but level 3 puzzlebox ranged (?) minion has true sight. Gem on tank/wards/dust/possible skills is enough as it is, could use some more anti-stealth heroes though.

[shz1]

actually we dont need more true sight itens, it need be nerfed some fade times (0.5 fade time of vanish in scout is IMBA plus the low cost of mana + 25% ms). and we need COUNTER heros for them, like in DOTA we have Sladar ultimate, a real gondar is need (track is so good for counter inv/lothar users, the actual scout is a imba overpowered copy of gondar but not the real one), Spiritbreaker charge of darkness "still chase the invisible if cast before he "try" to vanish as trying to scape from death.
actually we lack heroes, not items.

[ZonDa1]

no. Just copy dota and it would be far enough.

[TLSHadow]

Why keep whining about invisible units. There are 4 easily accessible items that can counter them. Buy one. Even some skills reveal units. Stop whining about invisible units if you don't want to spend gold on dust, which is dirt cheap.

[Supremacy]

If you play Watchtower, the "Roshan" of that level drops a gem that doesn't disappear on death.

At least when I killed him last it did ;)

[rscott]

a truesight item that doesn't drop on death would make invis units useless. Wards still have 800 range in HoN, and dust has a 1400 cast radius. I haven't played all the heroes in HoN yet, but there are quite a few heroes that have abilities that counteract it in DotA as well.

[Sabre]

I think the easy solution to this is dust, people tend to underuse it. Its is absurdly hard to hit-run with dust on you, and since most of the heroes are melee, they get into the aoe.

[Karmashock]

Why keep whining about invisible units. There are 4 easily accessible items that can counter them. Buy one. Even some skills reveal units. Stop whining about invisible units if you don't want to spend gold on dust, which is dirt cheap.
... Whining?... *sigh* whatever. How about allowing dust to stack like ruins so it's less of a burden on the inventory? The thing is that you may need to drop dust repeatedly in some matches which is a big handy cap considering that the invisible units generally don't have to do it.


That financial advantage along with an often higher k/d ratio tends to add up rather quickly.
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I think the easy solution to this is dust, people tend to underuse it. Its is absurdly hard to hit-run with dust on you, and since most of the heroes are melee, they get into the aoe.
True enough but as cheap as it is it can still be expensive if you have to keep using it. If the scout gets away with the dust on... which isn't hard because of his speed then you've wasted 100gp. And he'll just come back again and harass you. Dropping a ward works of course but it only lasts for two minutes which means if you stay in one place the whole time it will cost you 1000 to keep sight on one place during a 30 minute game (assuming you only keep the up for the last 20 minutes of the game as they're not really invisible for the first 10 or so). Now if you move to different lanes or push forward your attack as you take towers, then that will cost you more.

Practically speaking I see this costing quiet a bit more then this. But maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.


I'm admittedly a newbie here. I'm just saying it looks like the invisible units have an advantage. That might just be because we don't know what we're doing. :o

[Techies]

The sentry ward need a small increase in range since the lanes are so wide.
Hero balance is gonna come in a later stage though. Atm a too low mana cost and huge increase in ms is what's making scout so annoying atm.

Pestillence is an anti stealth unit. Don't forget the mummie's rocket and arachni's ulti.

[Raynstorm]

...

I am above average here in HoN and even when average players buy dust I am having a hard time. Sure i can get away most of the time, but it severely limits my potential to do any damage.

An early push or a midgame push vs a team with dust = QQ for stealth heroes, unless u r severely uberfarmed/leveled.


ps. not intended to sound cocky. :)

[Limi]

The only change that would be nice is if tree's eyes had stealth detection again

[Glorify1]

Invis heroes already suck, let's make items to make them suck more.

[Zero]

It's not the fact that there are no item counters to the stealth heroes at the moment, people just don't use or are too greedy to spend their own gold trying to counter the hero(es) for the whole team.

As for them being a nuisance in games, the main problem is that right now there isn't a high enough hero selection and in the current pool there is select number, which I dare say are obviously stronger heroes that everyone picks; the game being in beta and all. Enevitably with the eventual increase in heroes will come a decrease in the use of the heroes you see over and over every game. Also just as hideinlight stated; there are many skill counters for invisible heroes now, people just don't use them as they would prefer to play currently imbalanced heroes instead of actually testing the game (not saying I don't do so myself as well). He named off a bunch and another I can think of off the top of my head is Thunderbringer's lightning spell.

Patience is a virtue, I can only assume the game is not near completion so you'll just have to rough it out and judge again furthur into it's development.

[Alhanalem]

I posted one idea here, take a look over: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=1637

[Karmashock]

It's not the fact that there are no item counters to the stealth heroes at the moment, people just don't use or are too greedy to spend their own gold trying to counter the hero(es) for the whole team.
yes, lately I've been the only one buying them on my teams. It's been very frustrating. Even the supposedly leet dota players weren't buying them. They complained about getting ganked but it was the newbie (me) that kept shelling out cash to buy wards.


As for them being a nuisance in games, the main problem is that right now there isn't a high enough hero selection and in the current pool there is select number, which I dare say are obviously stronger heroes that everyone picks; the game being in beta and all.
Is there a hero with persistent true sight? Or at least as persistent as the scout's invisibility? We have some units that can stay invisible pretty much all the time it would seem fair to have some units that could see invisible all the time.



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Invis heroes already suck, let's make items to make them suck more.
Perhaps in high end games but in low end pubs they're devastating.

Your myopic inability to consider other playing conditions limits your perspective on the matter. You are without question on of the more informed and passionate players which is a huge asset. But the game must be fun at all levels... Not just yours.


The scout and similar units are easy to use in pubs especially against less experienced players... especially by less experienced players. If there were more variaty of stealth detection items these units might have uniform balance. What's more, I didn't say that these characters shouldn't be improved to be more competitive in your higher end games.

Glorify, you probably know how to fix these characters so they work better in your games. Assuming said improvements didn't make things even worse in the pubs I think you'd find that most people support you.


Why not contribute something and be constructive instead of cryptic and dismissive?


L&P, KS.

[Impeeched]

Bound eyes are very cheap, only 750. Put one on your most survivable character and it'll almost nullify invisible heroes (cloaked heroes are balanced to be nearly useless without cloak).

[Q_efx]

As i post before, add a third charge to reveal ward. And it should be ok :)