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View Full Version : [Item Suggestion/Theory] Numbing Dagger



stik
07-08-2009, 12:40 PM
Numbing Dagger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Weapons/warhammer.jpg + http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/snagg3r/HoNItems/Secret%20Shop/itemwarpedcleft.jpg

(for the purposes of this guide, I used the DotA item names as, for the most part, people are more comfortable with those).

Abilities:

+65% increased attack speed
+30 damage
Enervate on Hit (Passive Orb Effect)

Recipe = Hyperstone (2100) + Mithril Hammer (1610) + Recipe (900)
Total cost = 4610
Recipe is purchased in the Morph Attack shop.

Similar items' total costs for comparison:
Desolator = 4420
Orchid = 5700
Battlefury = 4350
Lothar's = 3400

Enervate: Any enemy unit hit by this dagger's crippling poison has its damage reduced by 3% for 5 seconds. This debuff stacks up to a maximum of 45% damage reduced or 15 charges. (Each charge lasts 5 seconds after it is placed, after which it falls off the stack while the other charges stay on).


Theory and Use:

All of the best new DotA items in recent memory basically aren't good because they create a really new, interesting mechanic but are good because they use an already existing mechanic in an interesting way. Although items designed in this way have the drawback of not being super innovative, they have the huge benefit of immediate legibility and comprehension - players only need to see the item once to understand how it works, because they've seen the mechanic before.

The other nice thing about these kinds of items are that they add depth to the game to the game without overcomplicating it. For example, a mobile shop sort of item or skill could be really interesting and cool, but it would also be so new and so different that it would confuse everyone and be incredibly hard to balance, because no one would really know how to use it for some time. Often, it's preferable to make a simple item which has a basic concept that's easy to understand how to use.

The other key is that the item presents the player with a new and difficult decision to make. One way to do this is to create a relatively unique item that is powerful enough to be interesting but not too strong that every character has to have one. Hand of Midas is a good example of this - it's interesting, it's unlike any other item, and it's useful a lot of the time but not all of the time. Although I don't know how much use it's seen in competitive play, it seems like Quelling Blade is an example of this design mentality gone wrong - if you're melee character, you get quelling blade. If you're not, you don't. It doesn't really make for interesting build opportunities or difficult decisions.

Another way to create interesting decisions is to make an item that competes for an already filled niche. Orchid Malevolence is a great, great example of this - and it's also one of the most successful new items. Orchid competes with Sheepstick (Guinsoo's) and Shiva's for good support character items, as well as helping with damage and attack speed for characters like Enchantress. Basically, it's almost perfect; it gives support characters an interesting decision that's not just a different flavor of Guinsoo's but an actually very different alternative that still fills a similar role. Almost as importantly, its active ability is immediately understandable and completely legible - everyone knows amp damage and everyone knows silence, so it's use is immediately obvious while still being interesting and having room for innovation.

Because of that, I tried to model Numbing Dagger's design off of Orchid Malevolence's. Numbing Dagger uses a mechanic that no other item uses but which is immediately understandable and completely transparent. Additionally, most DotA players are already familiar from this mechanic because heroes like Bane (Enfeeble) and the new Razor (Static Link) have skills with very similar effects. Also, Numbing Dagger doesn't try to make itself unique like Hand of Midas -- it fits in somewhere around Lothar's, Styigan Desolator, Battlefury, and Orchid to a certain extent as a mid-game item that could be in several situations. However, it's also probably a lot more geared towards support and away from carrying than those items are (except Orchid).

A few ways that I've thought of to use this item: rush to it mid-game after treads and use it to completely control a lane against a late-game hero that's trying to farm carry items or an int hero that's trying to farm a sheepstick or a refresher or something.

DotA items - HoN items for items named:

Mithril Hammer = Warhammer
Hyperstone = Warped Cleft
Stygian Desolator = Shield Breaker
Orchid Malevolence = Hellflower
Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse = Totem of Kuldra
Battlefury = Ruined Axe



Balance Specifics and Justification:

I think there are four really key balance points on this item. First, and most obviously, the cost. Second, the amount of damage each hit reduces. Third, the amount of time each instance of the debuff lasts. Finally, how many instances of the debuff can be on any given hero at once. I chose the numbers above because after a bit of thought and theorycrafting, but ultimately they're still pretty much up in the air and can go in a completely different direction.

Finally, any thoughts/suggestions/criticisms would be appreciated, especially on the balance specifics and theory behind it. Thanks.

Oerba
07-08-2009, 01:02 PM
i really think the cost of the recipe should be more than 200 gold. because you are getting +10% attack speed and +14 damage with an ability just for 200 gold.

Zero
07-09-2009, 02:39 AM
Making the orb effect passive is imbalanced, in a game with melee carries the first one to get that item wins, -120 damage is way too much for a passive.

frotes
07-09-2009, 03:34 AM
200 is way cheap for extra stats, space and a godly orb that owns the other teams carry.

I'd say tone down the orb to -60 damage and make it last double duration (5-6s). Also could take it one more step and say you gain +damage equal to half the amount you debuff (so 30 max here)

I would say if you did that, increase the recipe to at least 1k, more likely 1.25k-1.5k and it would be decent midgame item for many heros.

Sayan1
07-09-2009, 04:48 AM
Currently the metagame of HON is focussed on carry's, this item will shut them down completely and make them absolutely useless, nerf enervate damage a lot, increase recipe price substantially and then you might have something going here or best solution is for this item to be active item in some way or another but even that might not help...

stik
07-09-2009, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the comments.

I think you guys are pretty much right - the recipe and the entire item is ridiculously cheap, and I think the damage debuff is too strong for how easy it is to get. Maybe the key is to make the item more about hitting the enemy quickly and continuously in order to keep the max level of debuff on him, if you can even get the max level. So it's less strong overall but it's also less strong in the sense that it takes awhile to warm up.

Proposed Changes:

Max damage reduction down from -120 to -80, max number of charges up from 4 to 8, effect of each charge down from 30 to 10. To mitigate this slightly, each charge now lasts for 4 seconds instead of 3.

Recipe cost up to 900 from 200. Total cost therefore up to 4610.

The idea of this being an activated ability is really interesting - any ideas for that?

vvildcard
07-09-2009, 11:06 AM
I like the idea... and agree that the total damage reduction in the first incarnation (-120) is too high, especially for mid-game. But -120 might not be so bad, though, in the end-game.

Why not make the damage reduction scale with your level? or primary stat? or... ?

This way it's not overpowered if you farm to it immediately, yet gets more and more powerful as you get further along in the game.

You might also consider a mechanic where the stack ticks down at a constant rate, instead of the whole stack falling off after X seconds. Make the stacks fall off 1 per 3 seconds if the debuff isn't renewed... this way the attacker doesn't have to start completely over if they lose distance for a few seconds. Perhaps this is too powerful?

stik
07-09-2009, 11:29 AM
Yeah, good suggestions - the way I envisioned it the debuff can have anywhere from 1-8 charges and each charge falls off 4 seconds after it's put on, not the entire stack. Maybe this is too quickly, though. A small buff might be increasing each charge's length from 4 to 6 or 7.

EDIT: I would be hesitant to make it scale with level, just because no other item does that, but I agree with the idea. Maybe you can buy the recipe again? Maybe it's a percentage decrease?

vvildcard
07-09-2009, 11:37 AM
EDIT: I would be hesitant to make it scale with level, just because no other item does that, but I agree with the idea. Maybe you can buy the recipe again? Maybe it's a percentage decrease?

Percentage is a good idea. you could apply it to any number of things to keep it from being overpowered... base attack damage, bonus attack damage, total attack damage, etc.

Glorify1
07-09-2009, 11:58 AM
Total cost = 3910


For the cost, it's far too potent an orb effect, ESPECIALLY with how they stack in HoN. I don't personally even like the orb effect, poison to me feels like a skill that would do damage over time.

stik
07-09-2009, 12:11 PM
Huh, when I thought of something that numbs/cripples I immediately thought of poison. Too many fantasy novels, maybe.

Yeah, the total cost definitely needs to be increased - I'm editing in the tentative changes I'm making into the OP. I think that the percentage thing is a good idea, so how about this:

Each charge lowers total attack damage by 3% and lasts 5 seconds. Max of 45% damage reduction (or 15 total charges) - which is a scary number, but the idea is that you're not really going to get this high unless you're attacking the same person really really fast (3 times a second) for 5 seconds, which is a long time. Basically, you're not going to get to that point unless it's late game and you're a really fast agi hero, if at all.

Howley1
07-09-2009, 01:45 PM
Well it's a good idea but I keep thinking, 65% +attack speed is a lot especially if you put it on an agi hero. Why not bump it down to 40% (or 45%) just like "Assault Cuirass" in DOTA (40% stock - without the aura)?
This weapon is almost 1000gold cheaper than "Assault Cuirass" but you get 10% more attack speed and a nice debuff for soloing, and I'm aware it doesn't have the added survivability of the +armor but that's why we have choices of gear :p

Summary: 65% attack speed is overkill? Maybe 40% or 45% and keep the same cost?