How to defeat Zephyr's backdooring?

[KnightDavion]

Zephyr likes to go behind towers and autokill creep waves with a lvl 1 cyclone skill. In 1v1 this problem is tought to beat...what hero do I use and how do I play to stop this annoying cheese tactic?

[endo]

a) stop playing 1v1
b) legionaire does it better
c) thats not backdooring
d) nukes > owl early on.
e) stop playing 1v1.

[zp3dd4]

zephyr can backdoor?

[Kirbynator]

retarded troll

[KnightDavion]

a) stop playing 1v1
b) legionaire does it better
c) thats not backdooring
d) nukes > owl early on.
e) stop playing 1v1.

This is a troll or you just dont understand what I am asking?

[gahd_damn]

Zephyr likes to go behind towers and autokill creep waves with a lvl 1 cyclone skill. In 1v1 this problem is tought to beat...what hero do I use and how do I play to stop this annoying cheese tactic?Arachna, tempest, pyro, pollywog, swiftblade, defiler, torturer....

[Happyfish]

last hit and DENY better

[KnightDavion]

Arachna, tempest, pyro, pollywog, swiftblade, defiler, torturer....

can u elaborate please? Im a dota vet and i cant stop it. What do I do when he flys around the map and out creeps me by a factor of 4 due to his behind the tower antics?

[hAm_sUp]

Play Succubus and sleep him every time he does it. Creeps walk right past him.

[KnightDavion]

Play Succubus and sleep him every time he does it. Creeps walk right past him.

ok at lvl 1 i can sleep 1 time before a bottle sip...next suggestion?

[Happyfish]

ok at lvl 1 i can sleep 1 time before a bottle sip...next suggestion?

last

hit

and

deny

better

[RainyDay]

last

hit

and

deny

better

^^this.

[akitoes]

I don't think op is very bright tbh

[Karmashock]

Well... devourer is good against him... so is jeriziah and so is predator...

All three have strong resistences to magical damage which is zeph's primary tool... jeriziah can stay permanently immune to magic by level 7 if you build him primarily for that. That means his winds do ZERO damage to jer. Alternatively the devourer can deal a lot of magic damage him self, has better armor against it, and has a stun/grab and disable. The pred also can make himself immune though not for very long... he can get monster life steal though... which can overwhelm any damage you get from the winds. He also can slow, leap, and reduce armor.


Zeph has three weaknesses.

1. he's melee which is pretty much always a weakness early game. Late game it matters less but laning against a ranged unit with melee is annoying.
2. His damage is almost entirely magical in nature so get shaman's headdress as one of your first items.
3. His evasion ability works best against ranged units so late game it's more effective to melee attack him.

I think pred is the best counter as zeph will tank up pretty quickly in most builds relying on the winds to do the damage while he just runs around eating creeps. Nullify or greatly reduce the magic damage while also pinning him in place... and he's toast.

[Drasha]

A pred counter to him is not a bad idea to bad i want to try a keeper counter first since zeph with out a forest is pretty much a worthless hero.

[Happyfish]

anything ranged agi

early game abuse with range/nukes
mid game purge windsheild/drain mana
end game.... game ended 10 mins ago

[Mark]

A good Zephyr will beat any hero in 1v1 anyway.

[KnightDavion]

A good Zephyr will beat any hero in 1v1 anyway.

This has been my experience as well.

To the special kid screaming to last hit and deny better how exactly is that possible when zeph gets literally every creep in every wave and never has to even click attack...?

I have resorted to just using Zephyr instead of trying to find a counter to him and I rarely lose. I regularly end up with 300-400 creep score when using this tactic and I have had mock of brilliance at 6-7 min mark most every game.

If the devs could add an option to TURN OFF OTHER LANES IN 1v1 then MAYBE this tactic would be invalid.

[Tapioka]

there no things named "backdooring". This is hon and not dota. If it forbidden, so S2 would to something, that you cannot do it!

And: Buy a homecomming stone. Use the invulnerability spell. port to the nearest tower and stop the "backdooring"

[Gangbangjoe]

Still why do you play 1v1? It has no teamplay (duh there's no team) there are terribly OP heroes 1v1 and the money start is rediculous. If you like it, fine by me, but don't come whining about OP heroes.

[Torky]

This is a troll or you just dont understand what I am asking?
no you're total noob, you beat this tactic by stop being a total noob

[KnightDavion]

no you're total noob, you beat this tactic by stop being a total noob

Cool story kid. Im level 15 with a 1.4 k:d ratio. You are obviously just trolling.

[KnightDavion]

there no things named "backdooring". This is hon and not dota. If it forbidden, so S2 would to something, that you cannot do it!

And: Buy a homecomming stone. Use the invulnerability spell. port to the nearest tower and stop the "backdooring"

Im not complaining that he is able to do it. I dont care if people backdoor at all...in fact im all for it. I am JUST LOOKING FOR A TACTIC THAT CAN COUNTER IT!!!

Your way of porting to the tower does absolutely nothing. You havve obv never played vs a zeph doing this. Zeph just ignores you defending the tower and kills waves of creeps. If you go harass him he leaps away and repeats somewherre else while the towers fall...

[Gangbangjoe]

Cool story kid. Im level 15 with a 1.4 k:d ratio. You are obviously just trolling.

Good arguement.

[Tapioka]

than stop 1v1. Sounds really interesting. Only thing you do is trying him to destroy the towers? nice. very nice.

[EvanJO]

You guys ever see a farmed Magebane back door? He just teleports into the woods when someone gets near.

Its actually really funny.

[Tenet]

More suggestions:

Zephyr's ability to Hit/Run depends on Mana. Make sure there is a melee Nullfire Blade in every game where Zephyr is picked. Magebane - if the rest of the team can prolong the game - can counter Zephyr in mid-lategame quite well.

It's also not backdooring, put wards up to see him approach and counter accordingly. Creep skipping is a reality you have to learn to live with.

[Griddler]

Uh... in a normal game when lego does this he is toast to any ranged unit, presumably zephyr would be the same? attack him a few times, then nuke him gg.

Also don't play 1v1 that's retarded.

[KnightDavion]

More suggestions:

Zephyr's ability to Hit/Run depends on Mana. Make sure there is a melee Nullfire Blade in every game where Zephyr is picked. Magebane - if the rest of the team can prolong the game - can counter Zephyr in mid-lategame quite well.

It's also not backdooring, put wards up to see him approach and counter accordingly. Creep skipping is a reality you have to learn to live with.

yeah thats what I was afraid of. I have been getting nullfires and they help...they strip that shield off him. Ive had some very small success with arachna. You basically have to just chase him all over the map and never stop or else he farms at ungodly rates.

[Bonburner]

Nullfire kills his wind shield and then just nuke him/attack and he falls as fast as any other hero that has the same amount of HP.

[KnightDavion]

Uh... in a normal game when lego does this he is toast to any ranged unit, presumably zephyr would be the same? attack him a few times, then nuke him gg.

Also don't play 1v1 that's retarded.

Nope he doesnt care if you nuke / attack him...this is 1v1 and theres no way to reduce gold so hes already got a helm of black legion etc...

--
I could careless what you think about 1v1. I find it fun and so do others. I know it makes some heroes imba but idc, and neither do the other ppl that play it. Who are you to tell me how I can have fun? Could you be any more self centered?

[endo]

well if we're going to resort to stat bashing

KnightDavion (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=162852), your psr is 1492. let me know once you start getting that awesome 1.4 k:d in 1700+ games.


I know it makes some heroes imba but idc, and neither do the other ppl that play it.

zeph's counters in 1v1 are limited because of this.

nullfire gets rid of shield. most agi's will outdps him no prob. HoBL doesnt block spell dmg. buying a shrunken head stops all of zephs tornado damage. If you're feeling pro you can ward the jungle to prevent his farming.

there that wasn't so hard! you just have to think a little.

[KnightDavion]

well if we're going to resort to stat bashing

KnightDavion (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/member.php?u=162852), your psr is 1492. let me know once you start getting that awesome 1.4 k:d in 1700+ games.



zeph's counters in 1v1 are limited because of this.

nullfire gets rid of shield. most agi's will outdps him no prob. HoBL doesnt block spell dmg. buying a shrunken head stops all of zephs tornado damage. If you're feeling pro you can ward the jungle to prevent his farming.

there that wasn't so hard! you just have to think a little.

Well as of this posting my psr is over 1600 but why would you even bother mentioning it? A guy who has never played dota or hon before starts with 1500...do you really think he has a 50% chance of beating me even if I did have a 1492 score (had far worse btw). PSR is meaningless...look at someones k/d/a averages if you want to know how good they are.

--
You cant ward the lanes to stop creeps from spawning, and since thats where Zeph always is im not sure how warding is going to stop this zeph tactic. Can I please get a suggestion from someone who has actually faced Zeph doing this in 1v1??

I can accept that there may not be any counters for this strat at the moment. The game is still in beta and new tactics are being discovered all the time.

[endo]

someone already mentioned it, but if hes never in the jungle that means he's last hitting better than you. owls base dmg is pretty bad, and if he has no tornadoes, theres no reason this should be happening 100% of the time. you should just be able to deny him creeps and therefore deny him tornadoes.

[DarkAce]

someone already mentioned it, but if hes never in the jungle that means he's last hitting better than you. owls base dmg is pretty bad, and if he has no tornadoes, theres no reason this should be happening 100% of the time. you should just be able to deny him creeps and therefore deny him tornadoes.

^^^ this

[Hikaratu]

plus as has been said the game is not designed or balanced around 1v1 in any way so you should stop playing it if you expect it to be.

[Happyfish]

no one is going to be able to convince OP that zeph starts the game with zero tornados and lvl 1 with limited items

he has already established that zeph has 8 tornados at all times regardless of lasthit/deny

he always has massive farm and multiple high tier items even from level one

he cannot be warded becuz zeph has actually killed the creeps before they spawn and he already has the gold from them

there is no defeating the logic of sub 1500 PSR

[TH_Juiced]

^ Agreed. lol.

[pehape]

Writing as someone who has played Zephyr in 1v1 (yeah, I KNOW it's not supposed to be balanced, it's not about that), I honestly don't know a counter either.

To those who spam "deny better": what zephyr does is standing behind your tower and getting all the creeps by just .. waiting pretty much (cyclones kill them). Now, you can go and last hit there, but if you do so, you lose experience (+gold), as the enemies creeps are dying to your tower. Hence this is pretty much impossible.

Picking a ranged carry: while you can go purge, zephyr will have probably 2x as much gold as you (if you start warding _both_ forests, you might interrupt his farm slightly, but you obviously lose a lot of gold as well). And, although I haven't actually experienced this yet, I'm pretty convinced the zephyr player can just dodge you every time you purge his windshield, and you only got 10 purges, so this seems kinda doomed to fail.
Now, if the windshield is up, and you are a ranged carry, you're just toast. The shield is going to reflect 30% of your attacks back, zephyr probably has mock + heart up, maybe frostfield plate... so you'll just kill yourself, even without him intervening.

Melee carry: one guy (1900+ psr, he played pretty well) picked predator, managed to kill me a few times, but lost the game simply because zephyr can just push the lanes very fast, and as soon as stonehide is off he dies to cyclones. So while this might work (if you stack lifesteal etc.), it's certainly not easy, as zephyr is just going to outlevel you a LOT.

BKB/shrunken head: yea. Has a 90s cooldown (at first), so zephyr just jumps as soon as you activate it :/
+ can't imagine it being effective when it reaches 5s duration.

Conclusion: No idea how to stop it, you might try going some strong early game + late gamers (like torturer), buy boots of travel (post haste) and just annoy zephyr + farm yourself, could work.

edit: zephyr (if not harassed a lot) will get mock + heart + phase after 20 - 22 minutes in 1v1.

[Thorbinator]

Conclusion: No idea how to stop it

There is a simple solution. Don't ever play a 1v1 game. The game is not designed for it, the game is not balanced for it, it is a waste of time.

[facers]

This has been my experience as well.

I have resorted to just using Zephyr instead of trying to find a counter to him and I rarely lose. I regularly end up with 300-400 creep score when using this tactic and I have had mock of brilliance at 6-7 min mark most every game.



\

edit: zephyr (if not harassed a lot) will get mock + heart + phase after 20 - 22 minutes in 1v1.


-easymode anyone?

[MichaelBurge]

Use the same trick he does. Lego pulls early-creeps better than Zephyr, so if he pulls top, you can pull bottom and farm even better than him early on. Get a Shaman's Headress and a Heart, and you can tank him. Build from there.

Or, go Pestilence and farm somewhere else. -15 armor(or even -10 earlier) will cause him to crumble faster than his tornados will hurt you. Combined with a Shieldbreaker and some critical and you can take him even if he does have a heart.

Build Accursed as an unkillable tank. Give him a heart, a shaman's, and ignore DPS items. Then, you can go up and kill the tower yourself. Even if he kills all your creeps, what's he going to do to you? Just keep wailing on the tower. If you're about to die and you're ulti's down, just TP out. He has no stuns and he can't pump out alot of damage fast. Heal up and repeat. This one is a bit dangerous, since he might decide to ignore you and just push himself. But since his tornados don't affect buildings, you should have a higher melee damage than him and hence should take his buildings faster than him.

Try Blood hunter, and build towards a Nullfire. Purge his shield, buff yourself and go. If he has less than 40% HP and he leaps, you can catch up to him with your movement speed increase. The mana drain will really hurt him; he likely won't be able to leap if he doesn't watch it. If he leaps away before then, ignore him and push the lane since he apparently can't fight you. Once you get your Geometer's bane, he'll go from full to empty before he can hit "Q" and leap. Another fun one is to get a mock as well and heal with the surrounding creeps.

The first two work pretty well. The last two might depend on the Zephyr being a bad player, since I'm less sure of them. In any case, they're some things you could try against a potential creep-pulling Zephyr.

[arcainic]

does k/d/a really determine skill? I've had teammates who were scout or nighthound who only leave invisi to ks and what not 0.0 Oh yeah, geometer's illusions seems to do to mana drain too, is that normal?

[Kirbynator]

look at someones k/d/a averages if you want to know how good they are.

LOL, pretty much the opposite of this. you fail at hon, try something else.

[RogerDodger]

I like to look at average creep denies

Thats pretty much the closest figure you get to showing the persons skill, and even then it's dependent on what hero they play.

[Damage]

a) stop playing 1v1
b) legionaire does it better
c) thats not backdooring
d) nukes > owl early on.
e) stop playing 1v1.

lols...

But seriously... backdooring is killing an enemy tower while the creeps are not there.
Also this game isn't made for 1v1, it's not balanced.

[Hibari1]

They only true counter to Zephyr is last hitting and denying. I see alot of people implying that zephyr is easily countered by a ranged hero just as axe is, but that is not the case, zephyr rapes ranged heroes, he is an anti ranged hero....I dont understand how this can be continually ignored, I can only imagine alot of these replys are from people who don't know how to play zephyr. Of course back to the previous statement, seeing as how denying zephyr is the best way to counter him, of course a ranged hero is good at keeping him down, not killing him, and not countering him. The saving grace of ranged vs zephyr is ranged agi heroes have a very fast attack animation, especially arachna, and therefore they can use that to deny. Of course if you play em games then none of this matters....In em games specific characters win the game.

[evotech]

Why would anyone want to play 1v1 in this game?

[Kietharr]

can u elaborate please? Im a dota vet and i cant stop it. What do I do when he flys around the map and out creeps me by a factor of 4 due to his behind the tower antics?

Play a ranged hero, jesus. Same goes for Axe when he does this, it was a low level pubstomp strategy in DotA and it still is here.

[Decency]

OP averages about 2.2 denies per game and claims to be a DotA vet and a good player.

Last hit and deny better.

End thread.

[EspritFort]

@OP - ignore the trolls :rolleyes:



Conclusion: No idea how to stop it, you might try going some strong early game + late gamers (like torturer), buy boots of travel (post haste) and just annoy zephyr + farm yourself, could work.


I can confirm that. Torturer is actually able to beat Zephyr in a 1n1, provided hes been farming a little bit himself.
You are never under no circumstances able to outfarm Zephyr, just try to not get left behind VERY far. You'll be surprised that you can actually deal more damage to Zephyr by standing next to him than he can to you (for a short time, even with heart and sh on him).
Try to annoy Zephyr, but dont make the mistake of following him around, as I said, you cant prevent his farm.

Another matchup I successfully tried against Zephyr is Armadon. Though much harder, it is possible to win. Just try to make a basic tank build, try to stackdamage-kill him earlygame and then farm DPS + stacked lifesteal to even kill him lategame while still being able to tank his tornados + mock.

Again, you can't outfarm him, just try to keep your lanes as long as possible.

Last but not least: there is currently no "easy" counter against Zephyr, all these matchups are outstandingly tough, provided the Zephyr actually knows what he's doing :rolleyes:

GL

[boxxy4ever]

Go demented shaman heal creeps around him hes at half health and will probably run oo **** look problem solved

[LightRain]

Jereziah heals creeps standing next to Zephyr. Also, try someone like Tempest or Pollywog who can push down towers early in the game. If he wants to farm, go break his rax.

edit: the first time I tried Zephyr in 1v1, my opponent was a Night Hag... who bought Codex as his first item.
Yeah. I learned that early nuke>owl.

[generiK]

Firstly, Quit whinging, you're playing 1v1 based in a game that was balanced primarily to function as a team game.

2ndly, Again... LAST HIT...
You go with your creeps,
you last hit the 1st one, he's left with 0 cyclones.
you last hit the 2nd one, he's left with 0 cyclones.

Rinse and Repeat - Hey presto, he has 0 cyclones and they've been chipping away at him or his creeps the whole time....


Go demented shaman heal creeps around him hes at half health and will probably run oo **** look problem solved

This too.

Or Codex that ****....

[EspritFort]

Firstly, Quit whinging, you're playing 1v1 based in a game that was balanced primarily to function as a team game.

2ndly, Again... LAST HIT...
You go with your creeps,
you last hit the 1st one, he's left with 0 cyclones.
you last hit the 2nd one, he's left with 0 cyclones.

Rinse and Repeat - Hey presto, he has 0 cyclones and they've been chipping away at him or his creeps the whole time....


You don't understand how Zephyr is played 1n1
He won't choose to be on the same lane as you and much rather farm down the woods or push other lanes. You can't last hit or deny ;)



Go demented shaman heal creeps around him hes at half health and will probably run oo **** look problem solved



edit: the first time I tried Zephyr in 1v1, my opponent was a Night Hag... who bought Codex as his first item.
Yeah. I learned that early nuke>owl.

Won't work. SH first/lanechange, problem solved. :rolleyes:

[Regem]

cool story kid. Im level 15 with a 1.4 k:d ratio. You are obviously just trolling.


lol you da best 1.4

[PuckYouLich1]

last

hit

and

deny

better^^this.

^^this!

[Extreme_Cake]

Play Pollywog, Get Euls and Guinsoo, and just disable him until he gets bored and goes away. If everything is on CD, use a tablet of command on him. Keep a refresher stone handy for if he still hasn't ****ed off.

[sneakysob]

Why the **** is this still on the first page?

[Ubiquity111]

I wonder if a mod would do us all a favour and delete some of these moronic "l2play betta" and "dont play 1vs1" replies, not constructive at all, absolutely worthless contributions to the forums.

pretty much any hero can be turned into a creep farming machine early game with the amount of cash that you start off with in 1vs1

while owl does excel at creep farming without the assistance of items, owls ability to maintain a presence on the map pretty much anywhere pales in comparison to someone like nymphora.

if he wants to play the mmo style
do it better than him, buy the gear that helps with this.
if he wants to stand behind your towers and kill your creeps let him, go stand behind his and kill his, nothing is gonna be attacking yours that way anyway (except him personally wich can be countered by doing it to his towers yourself).
be a threat yourself
make him come to you, waste his precious jungling time.

of course don't be silly stay out of tower range where possible
always keep HS handy so you can switch lanes

dont bother confronting him head on if you know you can't take him
in all honesty, you dont need to, if you really think you can last-hit and deny zeph while he has tornados doing magic dmg on creeps constantly cos he went and grabbed the easy mobs from the jungle first you're trying to use a lot more skill than you need to IMHO and could apply your time to a much easier more effective strategy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, brute force and direct opposition is not always the best counter I.E. you dont always need to l2play betta, if your tactics are sound.......

[Sil3nt7]

Knightdavion,

FIRST, tanking a creep wave is not backdooring. backdooring is when a hero attacks a tower without creep support. Attacking creeps without creep support, and therefore forcing your creeps to attack a tower without hero support, is virtually the opposite of backdooring. It is as far removed as you can get.

SECOND, someone who plays 1v1's is in no position to discuss their KDR or their PSR. 1v1 isn't HoN. 1v1 is a noobs game, and if you achieved a 5-1 KDR and a 2200 PSR in 1v1, you would still be a noob. you ARE a noob. STOP paying 1v1's and learn to play THE REAL GAME.

THIRD, you can counter zephyr's strategy by:
A) doing the same thing, guaranteeing you the same amount of money (lifesteal and a helm of the black legion will guarantee you the ability to tank a creep wave regardless of your hero)
B) going to zephyr's lane and kicking his ass. immediately. if zephyr tries to take your creeps alone, use a homecoming stone and warp in. See if he can take your creeps AND YOU at the same time. If you counter that you cant stand up to him because he's farmed too well, then YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T DO IT IMMEDIATELY.
C) SERIOUSLY, why are you paying 1v1's?