[1.0.12.1] Legionaire

[iMbaQ]

I feel this hero is very weak in HoN, even so more than the Dota equivalent, despite having a better 2nd skill.

I think whirling blade has to be made into magical damage personally - this would greatly boost this hero with his farming ability, especially since most creeps have no magic armour - but have normal armour. A lot of heroes also start to gain significant armour in the course of the game, making this ability much less useful. Yes, shrunken head will counter this, but the benefits outweighs the cons imho. For this hero to be more viable, maybe you will have to make his main ability, being whirling blade, not be a RNG based ability, but rather like puppet masters whiplash and chronos' bash, that every x hit proc's it. I see no balance issue with this, considering the ability has a cool down.

Secondly, his charge skill needs to be more like tundra's jump, even if it means you remove that debuff on enemies.

These few small changes, can transform this hero into something enjoyable and more importantly, competitive HoN viable.

[YawningAngel]

His skillset is fine, just needs to be made a little more usable by buffing blade proc rate/base MS/taunt duration/whatever else you like.

[DemoniWaari]

Yes please. I love the concept of Legi, but still give moar procs plox and then he's fine.

[WorstPlayer]

I too would like to see his "charged" turned into some sort of leap/blink ability. Even if it is a weaker version of Portal key and cannot be used as an escape mechanism. Portal key being core on heroes is a real kick in the nuts.

Also, changing his RNG system. If you are attacked and do not proc a whirl, your chance of proccing the next whirl increases by 3% incrementally. Lets say you are hit 10 times without whirling, on the next hit, you have 47% chance to whirl. Once you whirl, it resets back to 17%.

His ultimate also shouldnt be the ultimate KS ability

[YawningAngel]

A less terrible ultimate would indeed help.

[Nedrapter]

Ultimate can be changed to a % chance mechanism, like this:

target at 100% HP: 0%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 99% HP: 1%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 98% HP: 2%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 97% HP: 3%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
.....
....
...
..
target at 5% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 4% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 3% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 2% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 1% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.

That would be level 1, level 2 should increase the damage done if not triggered, level 3 as well.

I know that doesn't make him competitive but at least will be a fun hero like BS.


P.s. numbers of % might turn to be op, dunno, but you get the idea of what I wanna say

[WorstPlayer]

^ He doesnt need more % based skills.

It could be something as simple as dealing the 300/450/600 damage as physical, or if they are under that as pure. Or it could be something else entirely.

[Thuriner]

I think he needs a better proc rate on higher lvls of Whirling Blade.

Maybe making the CD from: 0.7 / 0.65 / 0.6 / 0.55 to: 0.75 / 0.65 / 0.55 / 0.45?

[Donn]

too bad he wont be able to deal with the hunters if its magic damage.

Raise the % procs to 20, and see what happens. He procs way less than in Dota for some reason, despite having the same numbers.

[The_Eye]

too bad he wont be able to deal with the hunters if its magic damage.

Raise the % procs to 20, and see what happens. He procs way less than in Dota for some reason, despite having the same numbers.

it's the system of numbers in hon. it hurts him and other chancers by a long shot

[Iago]

Maybe give him back his old second skill, and put the +attackspeed -damage onto his first skill.

That might make him overpowered

But regardless, I feel like the effects of the second skill seem like they should have always been attached to the first skill

[Neurofo]

Because of blood chalice, might as well give his old W back.

[ZabatieI]

This guy >> :legi: have:
A)
-42% win rate in 1750 PSR average 5v5 non-EM games > http://maide.ca/~foxi/herostats.html (http://maide.ca/%7Efoxi/herostats.html)
-4 worst win rate of the game.
B)In competitive games:
- Never used in competative games!!

He is a broken hero;

1-He is 100% more effective in jungle but he need stay AFK for 20 minutes unable to help his partners in this time.(he is not a effective ganker while jungle like :temp::ophe:).>> Bad cost x benefit for a jungler.

2- He need a huge farm for a hero that is not a effective semi-carry.(bad cost x benefit).

3-He is a initiator that need huge farm for can iniciate effective and don't gives enough damage in teamfights like :tund::hell::temp::behe::magm:(bad cost x benefit).

4- He is not a good ganker because his skills sets don't do enough damage for a solo kill or or teamfights.(bad cost x benefit).

Conclusion:
I don't think he needs a total RMK, but his Taunt and Whirling Blade need tweaks,his second skill(does not fulfill his function as initiator/gank) this skill only work well for jungle and a 100% jungle hero that can't gank sidelanes and have to stay afk for 20 minutes is not good and his ult is like a single nuke with melee range and need requirements to the target( HP below 300 / 450 / 625 to kill) which aims to KS your carry kill.

In my opinion he need tweaks in skills 1 e 3 e RMK in skills 2 e 4.

My suggestions:

1-Taunt:
Reduce the cast time from 0.8 seconds for 0.5 Seconds.

Explanation: His cast time is too slow for hon more quick engine.
This will improve his gank and starter abilities.

2-Terrifying Charge:
RMK : make a single target blink skill like NH pound,can't be used on allies
Type: Physical Range: 700 Cast Time: 1.0 Seconds Mana Cost: 50 CD: 20 seconds
Damage: 100
Explanation: This will resolve his starter problem,increase his gank potencial and he will can focus on buying tank items.

3-Whirling Blade:
the problem: random skill only hurt him instead of helping.

suggestion: make he spin every time he received five attacks(like cronos passive work).
Explanation: this will resolve his farm problem because he is a very dependent items hero and he will can semi-carry(tank) with this buff.

4-Decapitate:
RMK: Lego tosses his axe in the direction of his enemy back making him bleed,dealing damage based on his current weight(30% of total HP) and reducing their target move speed (50%) for 5 seconds.
Type: Physical Range: 150 Cast Time: 0 seconds Mana Cost: 120 / 160 / 200
Cooldown: 75.0 / 65.0 / 55.0 Seconds

Explanation: He will not have more a KS ult skill, with this new skill his gank potencial will increase and he can use his ult to help his team to get the kills.

[ZabatieI]

Look what [DWi]rycho one of the TOP carry players of the world of HoN and member of one of the best team of HoN has to say about lego:


he's bad because his abilities suck. it's got nothing to do with rng or mechanics

- taunt is awful until the enemy is really ****ing farmed and legionnaire has blademail. why would you want a melee disable that does no damage? there are a billion other stunners who do the same thing but better. hammerstorm, pest, ....

- charge is junk. it's impossible to hit an enemy with charge then taunt unless he's asleep. and why's it deal dmg as a factor of his base? legionnaire gets hp and mitigation items (and blink because charge is unreliable at best). at level 25 with heart it does like 300 dmg

- spin is horrible for laning, and his entire skillset is built around spin. he can't lane for ****, unless having your enemy csing safely at their tower is part of your strategy. so he jungles. and that's too bad because...

- his armour sucks. it's been repeatedly nerfed for the last few years. for a hero that's supposedly a tank (whatever that means), he gets his **** kicked in

and even if you get through all that, decapitate is straight up shittier than any similar single-target direct damage ability. deadwood's punch stuns and does more damage. pyromancer's firebolt hits harder and is ranged. i guess the one advantage decap has is that it's unmitigable, but really how many situations is this useful? one out of ten? is accursed really picked that often?

i mean i guess you could pick him as a joke against another melee solo, but uh yea that's stupid

[Llama]

Make spin have a changeable target scheme between heroes and all enemy units.

Can now lane better than sand wraith.

[MrBlack]

His Ult is ridiculously out of place. Whole concept of his Ult needs to change, none of this "I was made to ks" bullshit on a hero that shouldn't be taking the kills.

[Deathbeproud]

Change his Ultimate to Hamstring. A very powerful slow with some damage packed on. Also give a % chance to proc blade while you're attacking.

[RogerDodger]

I find it worrying that all of the Legionnaire balance threads have had his name spelt wrong.

[iMbaQ]

I think his ulti is fine, doesn't need a buff - nor do I think such drastic changes are needed as suggested on this thread.

You would be surprised just how useful the hero would be with just

- Magic damage on whirling blade
- No more RNG based whirl blades

Having the 2nd skill in some sort of leap ability and lowered casting time on taunt, would be bonuses ofcourse. But I think we shouldn't do too much, don't want to end up with an overpowered hero.

Would just be nice for the hero do to some consistent damage. In all the HoN games I have played, I never seen a PK/taunt combo do much damage, compared to the devastating damage I am used to seeing in Dota.

[Pheesh]

could make whirling blade charge based...an incoming hit = a charge. Additionally, incoming damage (before mitigation) could contribute to a charge... i.e. 100 damage incoming adds a charge.

This would add some scaling and add additional procs when taunting heroes vs creeps...increasing procs late game.

[WorstPlayer]

- Magic damage on whirling blade


Cant kill hunters. You will die a lonely man. :tort:

[ZabatieI]

The point I want to get is that S2 guys try to fix this big boy for 4 versions with no success(armor base +1 buff, rmk on second skill, modification in Random generator system in third skill,modification again in his charge skill), maybe is time for a Semi-RMK now or risk a overpower buff as s2 had with nymphora?
Like [S2]Nome said in one of this post they need first the hero be overpower(many people playing the hero , more DATA collected for their) to then reach a satisfactory balance of this hero.

[Deathbeproud]

I think his ulti is fine, doesn't need a buff - nor do I think such drastic changes are needed as suggested on this thread.

You would be surprised just how useful the hero would be with just

- Magic damage on whirling blade
- No more RNG based whirl blades

Having the 2nd skill in some sort of leap ability and lowered casting time on taunt, would be bonuses ofcourse. But I think we shouldn't do too much, don't want to end up with an overpowered hero.

Would just be nice for the hero do to some consistent damage. In all the HoN games I have played, I never seen a PK/taunt combo do much damage, compared to the devastating damage I am used to seeing in Dota.

The fact that his ultimate is only useful for a killing blow makes it bad. The other part is how little health people need to die. He is an initiator, his Ultimate should reflect that

[iMbaQ]

That ult defines him too much I think, we would have riots should it get remade!

[WorstPlayer]

That ult defines him too much I think, we would have riots should it get remade!

Nope. Let S2 give another hero a head chopping animation.

His ultimate should define his manliness.

I suggest that he throws off his armor and begins giving people the axe.

[Deathbeproud]

That ult defines him too much I think, we would have riots should it get remade!

All parts of Legionnaire define him. He is one truly unique hero. Spin is like nothing else and so is Taunt. Decapitate though awesome and kick ass needs to be reworked.

[Pheesh]

new ultimate: wrath of the beard
legionairre summons the beard of axe's ghost, entangling and applying fear to all enemies in an aoe.

[Ndie_Jaehoon]

Here is how to make Legionnaire viable :






Port Broodmother, axe counters broodlings from pushing towers

Done, now We have a gimmicky hero that hardcounters an OBSCENELY overpowered 99.9% banned Hero.

[The_Eye]

Here is how to make Legionnaire viable :






Port Broodmother, axe counters broodlings from pushing towers

Done, now We have a gimmicky hero that hardcounters an OBSCENELY overpowered 99.9% banned Hero.

this is the most retarded argument I've ever seen. no offence.

[Lethe]

Imo an interesting buff on terrifying charge would be for it to do -armor. Something like -2/-4/-6/-8. The damage it deals, 300%, is basically of no real importance, and is useless for farming since lego already has taunt and whirling blade.

Additionally, increasing AS but decreasing damage doesn't really do much unless you are attacking lego. This is obviously flawed as there is generally no real reason to attack lego after taunt is up, but with a significantly higher Attack speed, proc items/heroes like Pest, Chronos, any hero with svg mace, or charged hammer, basically just gain a rather significant increase in effective dps.

Ironically Terrifying charge is probably the only spell I can think of off the top of my head that can easily hurt the player's team more then it helps.

[WorstPlayer]

Ironically Terrifying charge is probably the only spell I can think of off the top of my head that can easily hurt the player's team more then it helps.

I know right. How much better will Lego be with it simply being replaced with an initiating blink?

Simply, make it a blink with a little longer CD than PK, which cannot be activated if you are being attacked by enemy heroes and scale the distance (700/900/1100/1300).

Replace the ult from being KS ability, and suddenly we have a viable hero.

[Drasha]

Give his ult a 10 second cool down. spam it for damage instead of ksing. (or ks more)

[WorstPlayer]

Or we can make it like one of his abilities in Savage 2. He spins and knocks everyone back.

[Lethe]

Like srsly imagine a late-game Chronos under the terrifying charge "debuff" attacking you.

Basically redefining the meaning of permabash.

I'm not a huge fan of making whirling blade deal magic damage. Against creeps, with the exception of wild hunters, the increase in damage is minimal. Yes, it would allow Lego to scale into late-game better, BUT I don't see why you couldn't take a more logical step like buffing Terrifying Charge so that it is actually a useful mid/late-game spell. A simple effect like the -armor I suggested would go a long way into helping Lego.

[Blaity]

I would like to see his 2nd skill made back into axes Battle hunger skill. Then hes GG again.

Other than that new heros please!@@!@@@!!@@!~!!@@@!

[Repugnance]

red are changes that I suggest, note the amount of red.

Merge whirling blade and taunt, removing bonus armor with taunt active. Whirling Blade becomes a passive of taunt, with same damage, taunt is the same force-attack sans armor buff. Now called "Riposte" because savage is a beast.

Terrifying charge reduced cooldown 30/25/20/15
Terrify applied to target (-50% damage, +50% ias 4/5/6/7s)
Grants the Legionnaire +5/10/15/20 armor for 5s
Mana Cost adjusted to 60/70/80/90

New Skill. Deep Wounds Passive- Removes 1 armor every time the legionnaire strikes a target (with whirling blade, melee, or decapitate) up to -2,3,4,5 armor and slowing the target by 2/5/7/10% ms for 3s. (Max slow is 2/5/7/10%)

Decapitate- Kills targets lower than 300/450/625 health
Removes 10/15/20 armor from single target for 4s then does 150/250/350 physical damage.

[Cyber_Kun]

Some ideas to make him stronger. This most likely will make him overpowered but is still good.

Armor - 3.44 (From 2.9)

Taunt - Forces enemies in radius to attack you and applies Taunting to self for 2/3/4/5 seconds. Lasts 1.75/2.5/3.25/4 seconds.
Taunting - Gives 5/10/15/20 armor.

Terrifying Charge - Gives 25/50/75/100% slow resistance during the charge. Upon reaching the target, forces an attack that deals 150/200/250/300% of your base damage plus 50/100/150/200 physical damage and applies Terrify for 4/5/6/7 seconds to all enemies in a 110 degree 240 distance cone.
Terrify - -30% attack damage, +50% attack speed while attacking Legionnaire.

Whirling Blade - Adds one charge each time he is attacked. Does a Whirling Blade at five charges and damage enemies in radius for 100/125/150/175. Gains one charge every 10/8/6/4 seconds he is not attacked.

Decapitate - Deals 250/350/450 true damage. Cooldown of 20/15/10 seconds.

[Mazinkaiser]

Increase the numbers on EVERYTHING

His ult should do what it does now, (buff numbers slightly) but make it a passive

BAM :legi: now owns

[Sonicle]

His ultimate is designed to end low hp heroes. Nothing more nothing less.

[iMbaQ]

Terrifying charge reducing armour seems like a nice suggestion (would make keeping whirling blade physical fine and good synergy with Demonic breastplate). If we just replace the RNG system on that whirling dance for a start - I think we will get a very solid viable hero.

[The_Eye]

Make his ultimate reduce the armor of the enemy by a percent so it scales really well, and make it spammable.
Replace his charge with something that adds to his survivability (he has 0 except for being strength, besides the short armor burst from taunt).

ex:
Expose

The Legionnaire moves at lightning speed towards the nearest enemy target (prefers heroes over creeps), tearing away at its armor and dealing physical damage to it and enemies in a cone.

[Mazinkaiser]

His ultimate is designed to end low hp heroes. Nothing more nothing less.

Thats why it sucks

Sup :soulr:

[XFlame]

His initiation is also shitty. Pestilence and Hammer do the exact same thing, except they are an actual threat to the enemy as opposed to Legionnaire. As the dude from DWI said, he is completely built around his Whirling Blades, but aside from his Taunt, there is no reason to focus him down after Taunting.

[RogerDodger]

The niche of the hero is

-Very long AoE stun
-Stun that goes through immunity
-Stun that can do a lot of damage if it hits a lot of people

The problem is that his early game is truly horrendous, mana isn't a problem (Chalice durr) as much as it is getting that first 1k for lifetube / boots. Teams can't afford to have him be such a heavy weight to lift early game. Introducing the stronger jungling creeps (Snorespitters, Vagabond Leaders) really hit him hard as well.

[WorstPlayer]

He has the face of a rapist crossed with a God. His skills should reflect that.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/38/icon_128.jpg

[h3llt3ch]

I use this hero pretty often, he's actually my most used hero at the moment and I don't really have a problem with him. He works if you use him properly and he can be used to jungle or lane. I think his ulti is fine, his dmg is rather pathetic (but he's not a dps hero) and I'd expect him to have a little bit more armor because his base armor is crap.
Taunt's +armor effect could last a bit longer perhaps.
Terrifying charge is not the best skill, it's not very effective as his movement speed is so slow without any form of boots that unless you're right next to the enemy it'll never hit because any idiot can see you coming a mile away.

He's useless without portal key, that must be said so he does need a big farm before he can come to the party.

Overall I don't think he needs a full remake, just tweaks here and there.

[WorstPlayer]

He's useless without portal key, that must be said so he does need a big farm before he can come to the party.


The difference between Lego getting PK and heroes like :magm::behe: getting one, is that when :magm: and :behe: get PK, its like the mother****ing rapture. When Lego gets one, sure he has a decent disable and can spin a couple times, then he is utterly, utterly, utterly useless. Both Behemoth and Magmus explode the universe and can get away with being useless, but Lego cant.

Simply give him a blink ability with restraints and he is already a much better hero. Buffing his abilities without making them OP will not see him picked.

[DemoniWaari]

Give him the barbarian's leap from D2 and spin every 6/5/4 attacks. Man I loved that leap, it was so manly.

[Wankerjoe]

Apart from the crappy and buggy taunt range, he's fine.

[Tupimus]

Here is how to make Legionnaire viable :






Port Broodmother, axe counters broodlings from pushing towers

Done, now We have a gimmicky hero that hardcounters an OBSCENELY overpowered 99.9% banned Hero.
So porting one of the carries that absolutely never have anything to fear from Legionnaire is the solution to buff Legionnaire. k.

DURR LIFESTEAL DURR

[RogerDodger]

Maybe make his charge act like Tundra's?

pseudo-blink to get up-close.

[Qwernakus]

Or we can make it like one of his abilities in Savage 2. He spins and knocks everyone back.

Blade Spin
7/6/5/4 seconds cooldown
25 mana cost
The Legionaire swings his blade with horrendous force, dealing 25/50/75/100 physical damage, appling "Whirled!" to and stunning enemy targets within [low radius] for 0.1 seconds.

Whirled!: Reduces armor by 1/1.33/1.66/2. Stacks 10 times.

[SuperCommand]

Give him +2base armor and he'd probably be really good.

[Volkova``]

Just make his taunt cast immediately and make him spin every 5 attacks, or the next time he's attacked when spin didn't trigger the last 16 / 12 / 8 / 4 seconds.


3 games I tried to play with him, 3 games I wanted to commit suicide because I felt soooooooo useless.

[PrestonLee]

Just make his taunt cast immediately and make him spin every 5 attacks, or the next time he's attacked when spin didn't trigger the last 16 / 12 / 8 / 4 seconds.


3 games I tried to play with him, 3 games I wanted to commit suicide because I felt soooooooo useless.I agree with adding something like this or making the percentage of spin increase every time he gets hit, if not changing the way spin procs completely.

RNG makes him so unreliable at times, sometimes you luck out and completely rape with him, but other times you get hit 30 times before a proc comes out and just fail and die.

I also liked the suggestion adding charges every time he gets hit and being able to manually spin when desired to exhaust x charges, but that's just my tastes.

[The_Thrill]

I like the current legionnaire but I do have a few suggestions:

1. Add a ministun to Terrifying Charge: 0.5 seconds would do just fine

- This spell is godlike in the Jungle but early game if you're attempting to gank there is nothing more annoying than hitting the charge then taunting someone who is like 1 unit out of range. I've seen this done many many times and it makes me rage. Some people might consider this to be "OP" but it needs at least a snare ability.

2. Decapitate is great for KSing (which I love doing) but otherwise nothing too amazing. I don't know if it really needs a rework because once he gets the farm he needs (early hotbl or shamans, pk, boots) its about 18-20 mins if you got decent jungle creeps. After that you really should free up the jungle for other players and getting an extra 250 gold now and then will be most of the farm you'll get. Maybe I'm wrong, but meh.

3. Spin - great early on again in the jungle, but unless you're going against dual melee its kind of a joke in lane. Just constantly pushes waves and it's impossible to maintain creep aggro to get those spins (when they happen) off. If they raised the spin to 20% I'm afraid of how overpowered it would be in the jungle.

4. Taunt - its awesome early on, but so unreliable once you start facing those heroes who are the same level as you or even close. In fact taunting anyone over 1000hp without at least creep support is basically wasting mana. Cast time needs to disappear entirely, and needs to increase the passive spin proc % imo. I think while under the effect of taunt Whirling Blade should increase to 50%.. maybe even 75%. Would make solo ganking somewhat viable, and add some damage output into the lategame.

As people have said, Blood Chalice has definitely helped, but he's still a very mana dependent hero. By the time I'm lvl 10 I usually have blink, boots and helm/shamans, and still sitting at 450 mana, Taunt isn't exactly cheap, and if you come out of the jungle you might have enough for blink, taunt, ult once without chalice or other mana pool boosting items. It seems like until I pick up Chalice I'm good for a solid gank, but then I have to return to the pool. And even when you pick chalice up you get what? one more blink taunt till you're back to waiting again?

It would be nice to have some sort of innate blinking capability, which would make him incredibly viable early on, but it'd have to replace the charge ability, which is so nice for jungling it's irreplaceable. If they did make some sort of "terrifying leap" ability, I'd like an aura to be on it, like 400 radius, "Terrified" which would grant the same attributes as charge. Similar to Chronos leap.

I love lego and he's my most played hero by far, so asking him to be buffed is kind of shitty for me because I really like playing crappy heroes, but to be competitive viable he needs something changed.

[pukkBOOBies]

change his ult to an exact replica of dr. repulsors, hero fixed

[tongzy]

make him spin every 8/6/4 times he attacks AND/OR gets attacked. Thus making him more viable.

People not focusing you? Stack attack speed.

People scared of you stacking attacking speed? Get tanky.

[XFlame]

Interesting thinking. Would make Deamonic core on him more than anything.

[Loki]

Charge>taunt should be made to work. Legio is too useless early game now. I think his previous 2nd skill was better since it actually added something after you bought pk.

[NuggVLC]

didnt really read whole thread but all he needs is his charged changed to Leap similar to diablo 2's barbarian ( has to target enemy to use it) and still keep its % based cleave at the end of it.. (and make him immune to all damage whilE in the air)

and for his ult change it to a passive:

lvl 6 increase duration of taunt by X amount and increase its radius by X about

lvl 11 increase range of leap by X amount

lvl 16 increase whirl % proc rate by X amount and reduce armour by -2 each hit by while for X amount of time

done leigo will be an awsome ganker / initiator

[Rammie]

What if whirling blade did a percentage of your auto attack damage? Might not solve problems by itself but would help for people seeing his whirl become only an annoyance late game. Also gives people 2 options depending on the opposing team, do you pure tank or do you need to get some damage too.

[TheFatalist]

Charge could even be changed to a self MS Increase skill, similar to pesti's Flight but maybe with a debuff on impact, would make him able to gank sidelanes.

[Darkpyon]

Lego is fine l2p.

No but seriously, he's a fine hero for 1600 rating games where no one bothers to block any creep camps or gank him, you can get boots, HotBL, blink and barbed armor (core imo) under 20 minutes if you get lucky with the hard camps.

Over 1700 rating games though he turns into complete ****. You go in, taunt, and after that everyone can just ignore you because you're not really a threat, and you can't do anything after that except maybe ult someone to death.

[Oktane21]

Currently, Legionarre's performance is very reliant on luck, which instantly renders him as an extremely gimmicky pick.

I very much like NuggVLC's suggestion of changing his ultimate to a passive and improving his other abilities. Combined with the Rammie's idea of making his whirling blade scale somewhat into lategame. In essence it would make him a pseudo-style Tauren Chieftan from DoTA, with the scaling passive and simple steroid ultimate.

Something like an Ultimate Called "Barbaric Vigor", which adds strength (or armour) with each level and provides a scaling mechanic to taunt and whirling blade.

Also (as suggested quite frequently), providing Legionarre with the ability to trigger whirling blade would be am excellent buff. My personal suggestion would be to have whirling blade proc instantly each time Legionarre uses (or lands) an ability.

[mazoomy]

I like the idea of having be able to leap to an enemy instead of charging them. By making him leap to one it's definitely not as good as having a pk because you can't position yourself in the ideal way, but its better than slowly running up to them.

An idea I had for his spins would be to make it an active with a passive component. The current skill can be the passive part, and when he activates the skill it increases the the probability of procs (if its 17% right now maybe lower that to 15% or so and add 5% per level or so) and increases the range or something. It should last as long as his taunt or so and as a drawback should immobilize him so he can't use it to chase (running along creeps and let the whirling blade kill them).

And making his ult more of a passive type skill that increases his str/armor and makes his taunt stronger and whirling blade scale makes would make him a lot better IMO. Good suggestion Oktane21.

[BOwnage]

Just make his 2nd ability knocks all targets in a 150 aoe down for 1 second then apply the debuffs.

Make his ulti a 500 range leap, that way he can possibly blink in, whack someone, then blink out with pk.

[ZabatieI]

I had an idea for first skill ''Taunt'':
When lego active taunt he can activate 2 Whirling Blades procs(charge system like chiprel and panda) with 0.2 seconds delay between each Whirling Blades proc.
He gain this 2 procs only for the duration of taunt effects.

[AychAychAych]

Ok, we are straying away from balance discussions and going towards "Everyone remake Legionnare in their posts!" kind of thread. We should stick to buffing current Legionnare, not coming up with remakes, we have a certain other forum for those.

[ZabatieI]

Ok, we are straying away from balance discussions and going towards "Everyone remake Legionnare in their posts!" kind of thread. We should stick to buffing current Legionnare, not coming up with remakes, we have a certain other forum for those.

The problem, that some concept skills of him are broken,and he certainly needs a semi-RMK.

He is a broken hero that is not good enough in any specific role of this game.

You've seen lego in competitive player?

That RMK of the old second skill by S2 was horrible(his charge is so easy to dodge if your enemies have a brain) and you can't take more than lvl 1 because your other skills are much better.
His Ult is a ks skill and lego is not a carry.
These two skils are totally ''concept broken skills''.

[Earwig`]

Ye Charge system on spins decreasing over time when out of combat.

Ulti maybe 30% health + 5 second 40% snare.

Lower CD on charge, and possibly a blink type or atleast tundra speed.

Maybe a slight armor buff to help jungle, his level 1 jungle can make you cry if you get bad creeps.

[AychAychAych]

The problem, that some concept skills of him are broken,and he certainly needs a semi-RMK.

He is a broken hero that is not good enough in any specific role of this game.

You've seen lego in competitive player?

I have seen Axe kick butt, quite many times in comptetitive leagues.
Legionnare is pretty much semi-remade Axe already.
If you semi-remake him even more, you might as well make a new hero.

Everything can be balanced because all designs have their balance variable that can be tuned to fit the game. Legionnare's role is to assassinate low max hp high attack speed physical damage carries. He doubles as an initiator, but that is not his real niche.
For what I see, it is more that people don't like Legionnare's current design. Thus everyone wants to remake him. But this is balance forums, not suggestion forums if you know what I mean. We are not here to discuss about how to make change him into something more likeable, we are here to talk how to balance him.

[ZabatieI]

I have seen Axe kick butt, quite many times in comptetitive leagues.
Legionnare is pretty much semi-remade Axe already.
If you semi-remake him even more, you might as well make a new hero.

Everything can be balanced because all designs have their balance variable that can be tuned to fit the game. Legionnare's role is to assassinate low max hp high attack speed physical damage carries. He doubles as an initiator, but that is not his real niche.
For what I see, it is more that people don't like Legionnare's current design. Thus everyone wants to remake him. But this is balance forums, not suggestion forums if you know what I mean. We are not here to discuss about how to make change him into something more likeable, we are here to talk how to balance him.

He don't work well in DOTA too( rare pick in dota competitive this days, I only saw one time to counter bloodmother, he was a common in the early of competitive DOTA(6.48b version).

And axe spin 10 times more than lego for start,his taunt and ult cast time are OK for the slow wc3 engine.

The agro creeps system of Hon **** with lego.

[AychAychAych]

He don't work well in DOTA too( rare pick in dota competitive this days, I only saw one time to counter bloodmother, he was a common in the early of competitive DOTA(6.48b version).
Actually he works well in DotA, he sits in a balanced state and remains to be untouched mainly because nobody sees anything wrong about him. He is rarely picked because his niche is pretty rare. But that is no reason to declare someone needs a full remake, we can't make all heroes equally picked. It is impossible.

And axe spin 10 times more than lego for start,his taunt and ult cast time are OK for the slow wc3 engine.
Legionnaire and Axe work exactly the same, the chance to spin is exactly the same. Only rest of the game is different. HoN is too fast compared to DotA? Buff Legionnaire's cast times and how fast his skills act. We did it with Bubbles already, it is a pretty reasonable. Creeps are too passive for Legionnaire to work? Give him better spin chance. Again we did not need to start remaking anything.

The agro creeps system of Hon **** with lego.
Like I said, increase his spin chance then. If he starts spinning far too fast and farms jungle too well, give him longer cooldown. I mean seriously, we don't need to remake him for him to be balanced. I hate it when people stray balance discussions to hero suggestions because they don't like how the hero works. Sure, I don't like how lot of things in this game work, but I don't go into a Flint Beastwood thread saying "Hey how about we make him into a melee hero and..."

[XFlame]

His Terrying Charge skill, was it as useful in DotA as it is in HoN?

[Anakha]

His Terrying Charge skill, was it as useful in DotA as it is in HoN?

Charge isn't in DotA. The 2nd skill on Axe is Terrify; which is/was a shitty single-target DoT, removed by killing/denying a creep or a hero, and only really useful for putting on someone with a Portal Key.

[XFlame]

Wha? He had/has Terrify, one of the shittiest spells ever made? And yet Axe worked better in DotA than Legionnaire does in HoN?

Somewhere, something went really wrong.

[Darkpyon]

That RMK of the old second skill by S2 was horrible(his charge is so easy to dodge if your enemies have a brain) and you can't take more than lvl 1 because your other skills are much better.


Well this is silly, people actually think you're supposed to use the charge for initiation! Charge is a skill mainly used after blink to get more whirl procs, because as a initiation tool it sucks balls, as you may have noticed. It's CRAZY for farming, stack a camp to max and charge it, see it go down in 10 seconds with the increased attack speeds. It also gives you a sweet nuke for endgame, though it wont really matter at that point anyway. Overall the skill is "fairly" useful in early game farming and mid game ganking, though even I would want to see it turned into a :tund: type charge, a pseudo blink.

A slight buff could also be made to the ultimate, for example if you don't use it to kill the target, it does the normal damage in a small aoe or something.

[Ctrl_Alt_Del]

^ He doesnt need more % based skills.

It could be something as simple as dealing the 300/450/600 damage as physical, or if they are under that as pure. Or it could be something else entirely.

GIVE HIM ULTI ROCKET LAUNCHER LIKE HE HAS IN SAVAGE 2! 100-250 damage aoe 3 sec cd reload time :D 15 charges 15 sec to store charge :75 mana a shot :D. Lol only joking.


Isnt that just a bad deadwood ulti with no stun and -str?. Make his whirling blade every 8/7/5/4 attacks it procs for magic damage and his ult can be a 350 radius taunt that does damage. Someethinglike pandas jump and he comes down with his axe like his current ult except higher and aoe. It also gives him 100% chance to block 60 damage each hit for the duration 3/5/6 seconds?:legi:

[AychAychAych]

I felt the Charge was lot better when it gave you max ms from lvl 1
Well, according to Nome it was imbalanced so I guess Legionnaire was too good at that point?

[XFlame]

Whirling Blade shouldn't be magic damage, because then you can't kill Hunters anymore. It's been said already.

Please read the thread first before replying. The 4 pages are there for a reason.

@ Aych: Yeah it used to be good then. But S2 tries to make every skill worth leveling up (which is a good thing btw, I'm not whining or w/e), so they lowered it to make it worth it. But that failed, people still only put one point in it at level 2 or 4 just to jungle. If they want to make it worth leveling up, add a slow on it that scales with levels.

[Tamachan]

Remove cast time on taunt and he is fixed. He only seems to suck because so many noobs play him so they can afk jungle mmo style.

[XFlame]

How does that make him a better initiator than Pestilence or Hammerstorm?

[AychAychAych]

@ Aych: Yeah it used to be good then. But S2 tries to make every skill worth leveling up (which is a good thing btw, I'm not whining or w/e), so they lowered it to make it worth it. But that failed, people still only put one point in it at level 2 or 4 just to jungle. If they want to make it worth leveling up, add a slow on it that scales with levels.

You'd think S2 would know that such idea does not work with Legionnaire. He can't skip any level of spin. He can't really skip any level of Taunt. Even putting one point into charge feels inefficient, sometimes I feel that I would had gotten few ganks if my taunt had been 0.5 seconds longer.

[bswhunter]

He should get a bonus if he gets a kill with decapitate.
Like, an AoE bonus.
Bam, hes a high risk, high reward initator.

[ZabatieI]

Well this is silly, people actually think you're supposed to use the charge for initiation! Charge is a skill mainly used after blink to get more whirl procs, because as a initiation tool it sucks balls, as you may have noticed. It's CRAZY for farming, stack a camp to max and charge it, see it go down in 10 seconds with the increased attack speeds. It also gives you a sweet nuke for endgame, though it wont really matter at that point anyway. Overall the skill is "fairly" useful in early game farming and mid game ganking, though even I would want to see it turned into a :tund: type charge, a pseudo blink.

A slight buff could also be made to the ultimate, for example if you don't use it to kill the target, it does the normal damage in a small aoe or something.

I don't like the current charge because force Lego to 100% jungle,the only function of this skill l is to facilitate the jungle farm(you usually take only 1 lvl),because if your enemy have a brain you will never will hit the enemy with this skill(useless for gank and start).

He sucks in lane and I thinkhe has to be buff to be more effective in the lane than jungle with more gank potential skills.

[AychAychAych]

He sucks in lane and I thinkhe has to be buff to be more effective in the lane than jungle with more gank potential skills.

He doesn't need to be able to lane to be viable.

[Or1m]

Lego IS viable on lane.

Back in DotA .52e CM + Axe was one of the strongest lanes. The thing is, evry time he hits his taunt he cant burst for enourmous amounts of dmg by spamming right click on the enemy and thus getting the creeps to attack you.

Try trilane him while having one of the support*****es stack camps. You will be suprised how strong it is.

Also his charge DOES deal a decent amount of AE dmg.

[Weenoman]

Why not make his ultimate a passive? Like +150/300/450 life, reflects 4/8/12/16% of all damage, +2/4/6/8 armor, +1/2/3/4 Magic armor. He's just not tanky enough for his job.

Change the values for balance of course.

[Weenoman]

Lego IS viable on lane.

Back in DotA .52e CM + Axe was one of the strongest lanes. The thing is, evry time he hits his taunt he cant burst for enourmous amounts of dmg by spamming right click on the enemy and thus getting the creeps to attack you.

Try trilane him while having one of the support*****es stack camps. You will be suprised how strong it is.

Also his charge DOES deal a decent amount of AE dmg.

Any hero is powerful in a working tri-lane. Like stupid powerful.

[Or1m]

Any hero is powerful in a working tri-lane. Like stupid powerful.

My point is that he is way more lane viable than ppl give him credit for. All he need is an initiate stun/slow and he will rape faces.

[WorstPlayer]

My point is that he is way more lane viable than ppl give him credit for. All he need is an initiate stun/slow and he will rape faces.

He pushes the creeps WAY too much. I have played him mid and he is decent.

Doesnt make up for the fact that he is almost completely useless without portal key, something that cant be said for other heroes.

[AychAychAych]

He pushes the creeps WAY too much. I have played him mid and he is decent.

Doesnt make up for the fact that he is almost completely useless without portal key, something that cant be said for other heroes.

The max ms charge was a nice way to gank the sidelanes tho.
Sure it was not that good, but it was at least something!

[WorstPlayer]

The max ms charge was a nice way to gank the sidelanes tho.
Sure it was not that good, but it was at least something!

If he had a semi/pseudo blink, he would be a viable hero. Even if it went off cooldown if he was attacked by enemy heroes just like portal key.

[Weenoman]

My point is that he is way more lane viable than ppl give him credit for. All he need is an initiate stun/slow and he will rape faces.

It's not that he's not "viable" its that there's several heros that lane,gank,push, and initiate better, he's not very good at any of these 4 aspects of the game.

There are 3 options,

1) Make him scale better and keep the need for him to farm up, so the farm is rewarded more than it is currently

2) Make him not require so much farm, buff his skills and stats to make them more potent without farm

3) make him able to farm better, to lesson the amount of time it takes to get the rewards from his farm.

For a hero that requires items to make him useful, they really don't make him that jawdropping. This needs to change before he'll be balanced.

[SoulDragon]

The only thing Lego needs to become viable, is to increase the range on his taunt. That is it. If this is done, I believe he will become a very reliable strength cc'er/initiator, as that is what it appears his role should be and is sketchy at best. When he lands a good taunt, it is potentially devastating. The problem is, is that taunt is sketchy at best due to his low range. Upping the radius should make a huge difference.

[Negativity]

These are individual ideas, I'm not implying they all be implemented together.

Ideas for whirling blade:

•Give it a base dmg and scaling dmg by % of Lego's STR
•Make it reduce MS% by those hit
•Give it a bleed effect after hitting targets (possible combination with the MS% slow and call the debuff Hamstring? May synergize with decapitate well.)

Ideas for Taunt:

•Give it a larger radius
•Increase duration
•Instead of increased armor, give him a reduced % incoming damage.

Ideas for charge:

•Give him a leap (Similar to zephyrs old leap?)
•Increase the MS of charge
•Make it stun the target for x seconds

Ideas for Ultimate:

•Vanguard: Legionnaire takes % reduced incoming damage, increases damage and hp, becomes immune to magic, becomes immune to stun effects for x amount of seconds.

Other possible benefits for Vanguard:
•Autoattacks maim the target reducing MS by x%
•Whirling blade procs every 2 seconds.



*These are just ideas. They are obviously subject to be modified for balancing purposes.

•

[fatrend]

Make it so Charge gives the enemies a debuff that inceases their chance to proc Whirling Blades, along with making it a slightly larger AoE. Also, make his charge faster, possibly at rampage speed because at the moment it is USELSS as an initiation ability (ECSPECIALLY against striders). Also, don't make charge scale with +Str, Legionnaire only gets so many items with Str, make it scale with health.

Also, give him a passive addition to his ulti that reduces the amount of health required for a kill by a low amount every time he gets a kill with it (maybe 30-50 area?).

[ZabatieI]

The max ms charge was a nice way to gank the sidelanes tho.
Sure it was not that good, but it was at least something!

lol, you can't gank with charge(even lvl 4) if you enemy have a brain.
This skill is too easy to avoid.(enter in the fog,stun,mini stuns,slows,blinks everything can stop this useless skill).

Fail argument is fail.

[flygarN`]

The thing I find worst about legio is his charge. I think remaking it into an area target leap like chronos with maybe a ministun - 1sec stun on area impact, about the same area as his taunt with scaling range 500-8/900?

[AychAychAych]

lol, you can't gank with charge(even lvl 4) if you enemy have a brain.
This skill is too easy to avoid.(enter in the fog,stun,mini stuns,slows,blinks everything can stop this useless skill).

Fail argument is fail.

Uuuh, you are overreacting here. It was fine to gank sidelanes with because the jungle let you quickly catch the enemy heroes offguard. Yes, it is was not great like I said, but it was at least something. Max ms is not slow, if you came at fog of war at short distance, it usually connected.

And what the hell do you mean with the "fail argument"?
You disagree with my notion that max ms charge was not that good?

[Or1m]

Wow, I cant belive how clueless many are. It's silly it have to take a "mega-pro-honcast-player" to do decent with a underused hero to prove he is actually balanced.

All this crap about lego beeing useless without a PK is just bull. Same goes for Tempest/Pesti/Behe and many more. Yes PK helps them, but they are still strong heroes without them.


lol, you can't gank with charge(even lvl 4) if you enemy have a brain.
This skill is too easy to avoid.(enter in the fog,stun,mini stuns,slows,blinks everything can stop this useless skill).

Fail argument is fail.

The charge gives vision wich is rly usefull. Also you dont have to initiate with the charge, just run in behind them (if you are jungling and going for a gang) and taunt if you can or charge when they waste stuns.


He pushes the creeps WAY too much. I have played him mid and he is decent.

Doesnt make up for the fact that he is almost completely useless without portal key, something that cant be said for other heroes.

in trilanes for example you endup with having your tower tanking whole creep waves when pulling. Lego takes these down in a sec, thus not letting your tower getting pushed aswell as keeping the new creepwaves were they should be.

[ZabatieI]

Uuuh, you are overreacting here. It was fine to gank sidelanes with because the jungle let you quickly catch the enemy heroes offguard. Yes, it is was not great like I said, but it was at least something. Max ms is not slow, if you came at fog of war at short distance, it usually connected.

And what the hell do you mean with the "fail argument"?
You disagree with my notion that max ms charge was not that good?

Even at 522 speed, your enemy will have enough reaction time to cancel this skill with many weaknesses(the map have many juke fog spots,mini stuns,stuns,slow,blinks).

And like I said, you only take 1 lvl for jungle , only for that,because you have better skills to take like taunt,3 skill and stats in the current lego.

[Or1m]

just like evry spell there are good and bad times to use them. if they can interuppt ur charge, dont use it. Its not like you use a tempest ulti on a hero when another hero who can interrupt you stand right behind you.

e.g. charging after youve hit taunt is a awsome way of bursting ur target.

[ZabatieI]

Wow, I cant belive how clueless many are. It's silly it have to take a "mega-pro-honcast-player" to do decent with a underused hero to prove he is actually balanced.

All this crap about lego beeing useless without a PK is just bull. Same goes for Tempest/Pesti/Behe and many more. Yes PK helps them, but they are still strong heroes without them.

You're trying compare Tempest / Pesti / Behe(without key portal) to lego(without key portal)?

You are about the effect of drugs sir?

[Or1m]

I am saying you dont waste your spells then they do no good.

Not charging when you will be interrupted is as simple as not using MQ ulti when there are 10 creeps right next to you.

[mazoomy]

What if the charge was made into a vector target leap? Adds a bit of skill requirement to using it right because you have to judge where he will land. When he lands he can still do the terrifying charge attack. And maybe make it so you can't use it over trees and cliffs so its not free pk either. That will leave people with an inferior substitute for pk which will allow them to spend their money on items and be (more) useful after his taunt.

Even if charge is left alone though the ult really needs to be reworked to something that enhances his survivability or usefulness in team fights beyond his taunt.

[WorstPlayer]

All this crap about lego beeing useless without a PK is just bull. Same goes for Tempest/Pesti/Behe and many more. Yes PK helps them, but they are still strong heroes without them.

Portal key is core on Lego. You are useless without the right positioning. Maybe instead of typing rage posts you should be learning to understand some very basic fundamentals of the game.

[Or1m]

Portal key is core on Lego. You are useless without the right positioning. Maybe instead of typing rage posts you should be learning to understand some very basic fundamentals of the game.

I know this game better than you probably ever will, I just think it silly and sad to see how narrowminded ppl are when it comes to this game. And no, PK doesnt have to be core on Lego. Just adapt your playstyle.

[Verkku]

See my suggestion here:

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12423333#post12423333

[Lt_taco]

Turn the charge to a physical nuke, Like Glads Whip or Scouts disarm.

Everything stay the same, Just add +15/+30/+45/+60 Damage while charging a Target, when it strikes the Foe Does an .75x/1x/1.25x/1.5x Crit. Damage has a 7/8/9/10 second Buff Duration after Charge or Cancel of charge.


Something along the lines of this, tweak some numbers around, This would be viable

thoughts?

[mazoomy]

I think that this thread could, at this point, really use some clarification on what is actually underwhelming about the hero competitively at the moment. From what i have gathered:

1 - his whirling blade procs are not reliable enough

2 - he doesn't scale well

3 - terrifying charge is not suitable for initiation purposes

4 - he is not naturally tanky enough

5 - his ult is counterproductive in most situations as it is a kill steal, offering almost nothing for the team and taking money that should be going to a carry

Please correct me if I was wrong in this analysis, or if anything should be added.

[fareed]

I think everyone is missing the key change to make. Increase range of taunt from 300 to 400 and make his charge like rampages so that it leaps once within 400 range. I think his ult is a great nuke and should stay the same. Barbed armor and phase boots is all you would really need then.

[Meatsmoosh]

I know this game better than you probably ever will, I just think it silly and sad to see how narrowminded ppl are when it comes to this game. And no, PK doesnt have to be core on Lego. Just adapt your playstyle.

I am going to rush into the enemy with my Charged Hammer Legionnaire!

[Anakha]

I am going to rush into the enemy with my Charged Hammer Legionnaire!

Oddly enough, I'd make someone get that item if there was a Legionnaire on the team. That Static Discharge buff is beast on him.

[sunjo]

I'm sorry but the range on Taunt is FAR too small. What the hell is the point of Charging at someone to initiate when its impossible to Taunt them if they are running away from you because they just outrun the ****ing range of it? Why the hell does the range on Taunt not scale with levels? You shouldn't have to have a Portal Key in order to get off a good Taunt, especially since one of his abilities is suppose to be an initiation spell but fails miserably at it.

I don't need to say the obvious problems but I will emphasize the biggest one (other than Taunt range): his spins just don't proc enough for him to be a viable competitive pick. I've gone 20+ hits without a single spin. If I feel like gambling, I'll go play online poker and actually win money. Jungling with Legionnaire right now feels just like gambling. To illustrate how ****ing awful and luck-intensive it is, jungling with Legionnaire feels like having 22 (or any low pair for that matter) against AK and the flop comes KK7. Even IF you land a great blink+taunt combo and catch 3 enemies along with 8+ creeps, you STILL aren't even guaranteed to get a SINGLE spin. I fail to see why changing his random spins to a "charges" type spell would be bad. At rank 4 of Taunt, every 5 hits procs a spin. Obviously, I just made up that number but you get the idea.

TL;DR - Scale his Taunt range per level to like 300/375/450/525 or something like that. I'm bad at coming up with actual numbers so I'll let you decide that. Make his spin a "charges until proc" type spell (like Puppets crit ability).

EDIT: I just thought of a pretty unique idea. How about having the suggested "charges until proc" type spin as suggested above but go a bit deeper to make it better. How about having two different types of auto attacks, hero auto attacks and creep auto attacks. For every 2 or 3 HERO auto attacks (at rank 4), you get a spin. For every 5 CREEP auto attacks, you get a spin. This rewards the Legionnaire for getting off a great taunt when catching 2 or more enemies with it by proccing you AT LEAST like 3+ spins. Obviously, it would be OP when you blink in a crowd of creeps and catch 2+ enemy heroes along with all the creeps so to solve that, just make it so it procs a spin for whatever type of auto attack meets the requirement first. For example, I blink in a crowd of creeps and catch 2 enemy heroes. Both enemy heroes auto attack me once before the creeps could auto attack me 5 times thus proccing my 2 hero auto attack spin. This resets it back to zero. It will proc again whenever I get hit by those two enemy heroes or when the creeps auto attack on me adds up to 5.

[B3nn1]

GUYS HELP!!!!!!!!!
THERES ALWAYS SAYING DOwnload Version 1.0.13.1
THEN IT COMES UP DOWNLOAD VERSION 1.0.14.0
WTF???!!!
THEN WHEN I Say no and go in I cant go to the servers!!!!!!!!!!!??????
WHy??????
right now im using v0.13
and i still cant get in i redownload and stilll cant get in PLEASE HELP!!

[h3llt3ch]

This is a forum for balancing not tech support.

I think making legionnaire scale better would be great, and I do agree his Taunt range is bad. Lets see what the guys behind hon can come up with, would love to see a reworked legionnaire

[AychAychAych]

Even at 522 speed, your enemy will have enough reaction time to cancel this skill with many weaknesses(the map have many juke fog spots,mini stuns,stuns,slow,blinks).

And like I said, you only take 1 lvl for jungle , only for that,because you have better skills to take like taunt,3 skill and stats in the current lego.

The skill itself did not matter. The point is, that 522 ms was fast enough speed for you to rapidly close the distance between you and your prey during a sidelane gank. Not for starting a team clash, not for any open area gank, sidelane gank out of jungle. It was a speed boost, something that is good for someone like Legionnaire who needs to get close fast. You used the ability to run at 522 ms in a ganking situation, nothing else. Sometimes before the charge is stopped, you got to run like at least half of the distance at max ms speed. It wasn't much, but it was at least something. Like I said, it was not THAT GOOD, but it was SOMETHING.

And where do you get this idea I was implying to get more than one levels of it? Dude, these are things we both agree on, where are you getting the idea I was thinking something else?


I know this game better than you probably ever will, I just think it silly and sad to see how narrowminded ppl are when it comes to this game. And no, PK doesnt have to be core on Lego. Just adapt your playstyle.

Then what are you going to use to close the distance between you and your foes? Explain yourself before you start judging others.

[Or1m]

Then what are you going to use to close the distance between you and your foes? Explain yourself before you start judging others.

How does swiftblade close the distance between him and his foes? How does balphagore do it? Just have some teamwork.

[AychAychAych]

How does swiftblade close the distance between him and his foes? How does balphagore do it? Just have some teamwork.
Difference here is that Balphagore or Swiftblade are not expected to go in first. As in, make the first contact without help. In ganking, yes Legionnaire does not really need PK for ganking if someone else is there to slow down the people from running away from him, but this does not work when Legionnaire is supposed to be the spearhead. Then there is the fact that Swiftblade and Balphagore do not need to stop for 0.8 seconds to apply their actually effect. In situations where Legionnaire is meant to be first, he needs mobility. His charge is not enough, far too easily counter-measured. Thus it leaves him but one option, to buy a PK.

[ZabatieI]

I think it does Lego be axe(dota name) certainly is his Whirling Blade and taunt skills(but needs tweaks), I think S2 could give RMK in his second skill and ultimate, and he will remains the same in essence, a true TANK hero with the same gameplay of the old classic ''Axe''.

[exnx]

-taunt range needs an increase, either overall or scaling with level. It's current radius is way too small compared to dota because the game is much faster paced.

-charge is still a crap skill apart from the +attackspeed -dmg concept which is good, it needs to either be replaced or guarantee your taunt will hit(increased taunt range would suffice).

-whirling blade is far too inconsistent and judging by s2 not being able to implement a pseudo random code that actually feels like dota, should be replaced as suggested with a system similar to puppet's whiplash.

-His ult is okay I guess, could use a slight range buff...Not a huge fan of the concept because 4/5 times the ult is just a KS and the person would have died in half a second anyway.(awesome animation and sound though)

[AychAychAych]

I think it does Lego be axe(dota name) certainly is his Whirling Blade and taunt skills(but needs tweaks), I think S2 could give RMK in his second skill and ultimate, and he will remains the same in essence, a true TANK hero with the same gameplay of the old classic ''Axe''.
Actually the ultimate is also a big part of Axe's imago.
It is like saying "Yeah Witch Slayer is all about Lion's CC and nuking ability, I think we can remake his mana drain and he remains in the same essence."
Only reason why Terrify was so easy to remake was because nobody liked Battle Hunger, but that is not the case with all other three abilities Axe had. Again, we can balance him without remaking a thing.

[Deledhel]

Darkseer+Axe lane anyone? Old-school ^^

Make Terrifying charge able to target ground and give it back its maximum ms. Upon reaching the target point the buff is applied in the cone without no need to hit something. That way its a charge that terrifies people and not a turbo-booster-axe-to-the-face.

[esT_aLKA]

How about Terrifying charge becoming a Vector Targeted ability, we can pick the DIRECTION legio will run, make the distance he runs fixed and shorter, like:

500/600/700/800 ms range or until he hits someone, but make it so he always charge at max ms (522), this way the ability will become more usefull and versatile, for example, you will be able to use it to intercept an enemy on the move, or as a escape mechanism.

Make legio slow resistant during the charge, also make the enemies hit by terrifying charge instantly target Legio, not like Taunt, just instantly, for 0.4 s will do.

EDIT: on click on the ground where you want legio to charge from and pick a direction, seems fun and takes some skill to pull off imo, as you wouldnt be able to just click the enemy hero as you do with kraken.

[mazoomy]

Since a lot of people (s2 included) seem to favor not remaking the hero I would have to agree with these changes that were previously mentioned:

- making whirling blade charge based. Someone mentioned that s2 wants to remove luck based abilities from the game so I don't see how this would be a problem.

- increased, non-scaling range on taunt. The duration already scales so I don't see why the range also has to.

- making the ult always deal the same amount of damage and having it physical damage when the target has more than the minimum health and true damage when they're under. Right now I feel the ult is way too weak. Compare to say Deadwood's ult which will generally kill the same target if they were under the minimum hp as well. The ult can be used at any time though for more damage and it offers a stun to boot, so I think giving Lego the ability to dish out 625 phys dmg at lvl 16 is the least they can do for him.

And since skill 2 is free to be tinkered with, I'll restate my opinion that it should be made a vector target leap which can't be used over trees and maybe cliffs. The skill can have the same effect as it currently does, plus a small slow or snare upon landing. Make the range scale per level and make it so he always goes the full distance, similar to valk's leap.

[Delerord]

Charge instead + atk speed -dmg why not use something more practical? like

Charge: Give lego 10/15/20/25% for 4/5/6/7 sec (based lvl ofc) more chance to proc whirlwind, (in fact charge is used for that, so do it directly...)

Whirlwind: Lvl 1/2/3 is fine, at lvl 4 change the dmg type to true...

Decapitate: fine =), the initiatior deserve a kill...

[Negativity]

I'd say increase Lego's taunt radius to about the same size as Flint's flare.

I think it's a reasonably good size and gives it more practical function for other purposes (Channel interrupts anyone?)

[Phitzgood]

:legi:Leggionaire is my favorite character and my problem with him is for taunt to work the enemy has to be melee and already attacking me or slowed so i am standing on the enemy. Btw, charging and then quickly taunting misses more than half the time. So if i was on the design team, i would either increase the range of taunt or make it a select target with a range of say 400(reduce enemy armor if single target??). And my other problem is with higher psr games where carries should be getting the finishing touch i find myself using decap : ) So a solution to that may be replacing decap with:

Deathwish (yes, from WoW) - Increase resistance to magical damage by (1x,2x,3x,4x) and immune to snares, slows, and stuns for 20 secs(??).
-or-
- Summon a second axe to dual wield with, which will basically cut swing timer in half.(30 secs?)


I'm just gonna throw this out there. How about making lego a carry and making decap a % health damage based skill. (20-25-30% +100 damage) B/c honestly, i love the animation for him right now and would still love to see that.

[Codex5scout]

Yes please. I love the concept of Legi, but still give moar procs plox and then he's fine.

Exactly. Whirl is pretty much what defines the way to play Legionnaire. Not the other skills.

Maybe increase the chance to whirl by 5-8%?
Or on his Charge skill increase the enemy's attack rate by +20% and lower the damage to 60%? Its idea to give more synergy to the two skills

Nothing's worse than having a perfectly placed Taunt, catching 2-3 enemies, and having NO whirls, pretty much wasting a perfect opportunity.

[Nogen]

On each attack, increase the chance to proc WB from x% by y% increments up to some cap like 50%. When WB procs, reset chance to x%.

[laserblade]

Just buff the taunt radius range. The rest of his skillset won't matter if this core ability is boosted.

[Compeador]

How bout change his spin from % chance to a per x amount of attacks proc. Then make it do +damage according to how much damage he takes (before armor and helm reduction) in those x amounts of hits.

I do agree that his armor sucks and his second skill, while good for more whirling blade procs and more damage mitigation from armor and helm and whatnot, really needs a rework on the charge.

I'm not pro by far though, so can't comment on how it would affect competitive games.

[mega_igor]

Charge based whirling blade and lower cast time for taunt.

[Dontae]

what if his ulti was like the diablo 2 barb whirl wind? but holding still? i think it would be more useful if you caught the 2-3 people that you taunted, charged strike then ulti'd. obviously aoe based like the krakens new ulti but not as huge. just food for the thought if you ever changed his ulti. i think it'd make sense that his ulti would end up like that if they changed it.

[zajoman]

Well this is silly, people actually think you're supposed to use the charge for initiation! Charge is a skill mainly used after blink to get more whirl procs, because as a initiation tool it sucks balls, as you may have noticed. It's CRAZY for farming, stack a camp to max and charge it, see it go down in 10 seconds with the increased attack speeds.

Exactly.

As a hero made for initiating and tanking for the team, I feel his "tanking" attributes, strength gain and armor, are too low, too.

My cents...

Taunt
I would definitely increase the radius of Taunt or decrease its cast time to make it stronger. Landing a good Taunt tend to be devastating in team fights, at least from my experience of playing him and watching replays. The problem is with just that - landing a good Taunt.

Terrifying Charge
I love how this works now. You can farm huge neutral stacks with ease and can get many more whirling procs when you initiate on someone. However, making this to some kind of blink/leap could be quite good, I think.

Whirling Blade
I'm definitely against changing Whirling Blade to magic damage. Its problem is not the type of damage, but the fact that it does not scale into late game. If it were magic damage, you could not kill certain neutrals with ease (Hunters). A change to its randomness could work, though. Many such abilities triggered by chance have been changed to simply cool down based ones. Why not this one.

Decapitate
I like this ability and wouldn't change a thing about it. It's one of the most satisfying spells in the game when you get the kill, in terms of sounds and graphics.

[Dontae]

It's one of the most satisfying spells in the game when you get the kill, in terms of sounds and graphics.

Amen to that, it's like getting a head shot with a awp in CSS, i wish there was an extra effect to it if you jump the gun on his ulti. maybe stunned/bleeding/silence for X amount of second per lvl. that way you could just use it right away on ceritan hero's or even late game and not have to use it to finish off/ks.

early game id find it useful cause you can instant kill pretty much any hero who cannot get away from you and your whirl blade. but late game as we know the whirl blade kinda loses's it's effect and thats where we switch to barbed armor/pk (along with the other tank building items). maybe on other hero's you could just blink in and ulti right away so they'll be stunned/silenceds so it'll be more effect than just finishing the kill.

[Skybound]

Actually the ultimate is also a big part of Axe's imago.
It is like saying "Yeah Witch Slayer is all about Lion's CC and nuking ability, I think we can remake his mana drain and he remains in the same essence."
Only reason why Terrify was so easy to remake was because nobody liked Battle Hunger, but that is not the case with all other three abilities Axe had. Again, we can balance him without remaking a thing.

Pretty much every good player would rejoice if they replaced Witch Slayer's mana drain, it's trash. Really, really trash. There's a reason the majority of higher tier players get stats instead of leveling it. (Perhaps 1 rank to burst Null Stone, etc)

[Skybound]

Whirlwind: Lvl 1/2/3 is fine, at lvl 4 change the dmg type to true...


What're you smoking, bro.

[Qwernakus]

Decapiate threshold should be turned into a percentage of max health instead of a static health number.

Currently, Decap accomplishes one thing in practice: The max health of anyone within 150 radius of you is reduced by 300/450/625. However, Deadwood, Pyromancer, Thunderbringer and a lot more do that just as well and with a larger radius. However, if you changed it to 15/25/35% health, it would matter a lot more, even lategame, and would justify mana cost, low range and so on.

[Vonloss]

Change his ult into a 700 range slow aura for enemies and plus armor for himself and allies. Increasing his pressence in teamfights and giving a reason to actually kill him.

Also is it impossible to stack antlion camps?

[HonStinks]

I suggested this in the testing forum to make the spins reliable while still retaining the chance factor:

Spin has a maximum of 5 charges, every charge adds 20% chance to proc, you start with 0 charges.

Everytime you are attacked and there is no spin you get a charge. This means you can get a maximum of 5 hits without a spin.

Everytime you are attacked and there is a spin you lose 3 charges. This means you can get a maximum of 2 spins in a row before the chance is set to 0%.

[Heavenlapse]

change his 2nd skill to something similiar as Heroic Leap from WoW,

Think Valk leap with stun in aoe around him where he lands.

[Dontae]

change his 2nd skill to something similiar as Heroic Leap from WoW,

Think Valk leap with stun in aoe around him where he lands.

Doesn't panda do that? i don't see legion as the type to stun especially jumping... unless his ulti was a leap forward and ulti. and if it didn't insta-kill it would stun the target. then were kinda talkin...

But what if taunt had a name change and had some added damage on top of the current effects? based on distance obviously they would have to change the AOE on that skill but. it's just an idea.

[Easy_Lee]

The biggest problem with legionnaire, I believe, is that he's inconsistent. Whirling blade just doesn't proc when it's needed. Compare him to other strength-blink heroes like magmus and behemoth. Both do tremendous damage compared to legionnaire and have a reliable, ranged aoe stun. To make legi more viable, I think whirling blade should be made more consistent. He should either proc it automatically every 4th attack or so, or he should be able to store charges and unleash them later. Do that and I think we'll see him used more often.

[Emptronic]

:legi:
Suggestion:

Make the damage done by his ultimate scale with his hit points AND apply a buff to guarantee consecutive whirling blade procs (on hit) after using Decapitate.

This change is two-part so please read the details of my suggestion before offering any insight, advice or tweaks.

Details:

Current Legionnaire (numbers):


Level 6 Health: 853
Decapitate(1) = 300 insta-gib ceiling



Level 11 Health: 1100
Decapitate(2) = 450 insta-gib ceiling



Level 16 Health: 1328 |
Decapitate(3) = 625 insta-gib ceiling



Level 25 Health: 1765
Decapitate(3) = 625 insta-gib ceiling


First Change:



Level 3 Decapitate could scale with the legionnaires hit points.



For every 100 additional hit points the legionnaire has over 1300, his decapitate ceiling could be raised by 15.



At level 25, this equals to 60 more damage to decapitate (685 kill/360 base), not including items.


This seems lackluster until items are taken into account. See below.

With items:



A 2000 hit point legionnaire could execute anyone under 730 hit points (or do 405 damage)



A 3000 hit point legionnaire could execute anyone under 880 hit points (or do 555 damage)


Stacking hit points after grabbing portal key now seems like an even better idea. This takes into account his new and improved anti-carry scaling.

This change alone would make legionnaire into a very capable "anti-carry initiator." This and the second change would make him a more valuable teammate. Read on.



Second Change:



After using Decapitate, the Legionnaire gains a buff that guarantees a whirling blade proc the next time he is hit by an enemy. Has 1/2/3 charges, lasts 10 seconds.


Essentially, the Legionnaire has three near guaranteed procs after using his ultimate.* Assuming Legionnaire is in the middle of a team battle, this would ensure he causes additional AoE damage after a blink + taunt + ult combo. This also means he isn't gambling on a 17% chance to be helpful after his initiation.

He has one guaranteed spin at level 6, two spins at level 11, and 3 spins at level 16. This would still take into account the mini cool-down of whirling blades.

The 10 second duration of the buff means the legionnaire has to really think about who to decapitate in a major team fight. He doesn't want to decapitate someone far away from his teammates and waste the buff as a result. He also doesn't want to save decapitate for the end of the fight, and waste his free spins. This encourages initiation and early ganking.

*I considered the buff only being applied on a successful kill via Decapitate. However, this encourages the Legionnaire to kill steal over a real carry, which is less than desirable considering his initiator role.

Conclusion:

The first change only occurs after hitting level 16 and getting rank 3 decapitate. The second change applies for all levels of decapitate (1,2,3 charges, based on level of Decapitate). The Legionnaire definitely requires better late game scaling. In addition to scaling, the ability to control whirling blade procs would be a nice additional to his arsenal overall.

Questions? Comments? Concerns?
Please post and thanks for reading my suggestion.

[Plaguedlands]

Ultimate can be changed to a % chance mechanism, like this:

target at 100% HP: 0%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 99% HP: 1%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 98% HP: 2%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 97% HP: 3%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
.....
....
...
..
target at 5% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 4% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 3% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 2% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.
target at 1% HP: 95%+5% chance to instantly kill the target. Deals 150 dmg if not triggered.

That would be level 1, level 2 should increase the damage done if not triggered, level 3 as well.

I know that doesn't make him competitive but at least will be a fun hero like BS.


P.s. numbers of % might turn to be op, dunno, but you get the idea of what I wanna say

ROFL 55% chance at 50% hp to insta gib the target. BALANCED!

oh those high hp 70% armor heroes are in for a surprise.

New Lego strat: Farm portal key/shroud (or both), blink in on enemy carry/tank and ult. no insta kill? shroud away! rinse, repeat. even at 100% hp a 1 in 20 chance isn't bad at all lewl.

[Plaguedlands]

:legi:
Suggestion:

Make the damage done by his ultimate scale with his hit points AND apply a buff to guarantee consecutive whirling blade procs (on hit) after using Decapitate.

This change is two-part so please read the details of my suggestion before offering any insight, advice or tweaks.

Details:

Current Legionnaire (numbers):


Level 6 Health: 853
Decapitate(1) = 300 insta-gib ceiling



Level 11 Health: 1100
Decapitate(2) = 450 insta-gib ceiling



Level 16 Health: 1328 |
Decapitate(3) = 625 insta-gib ceiling



Level 25 Health: 1765
Decapitate(3) = 625 insta-gib ceiling


First Change:



Level 3 Decapitate could scale with the legionnaires hit points.



For every 100 additional hit points the legionnaire has over 1300, his decapitate ceiling could be raised by 15.



At level 25, this equals to 60 more damage to decapitate (685 kill/360 base), not including items.


This seems lackluster until items are taken into account. See below.

With items:



A 2000 hit point legionnaire could execute anyone under 730 hit points (or do 405 damage)



A 3000 hit point legionnaire could execute anyone under 880 hit points (or do 555 damage)


Stacking hit points after grabbing portal key now seems like an even better idea. This takes into account his new and improved anti-carry scaling.

This change alone would make legionnaire into a very capable "anti-carry initiator." This and the second change would make him a more valuable teammate. Read on.



Second Change:



After using Decapitate, the Legionnaire gains a buff that guarantees a whirling blade proc the next time he is hit by an enemy. Has 1/2/3 charges, lasts 10 seconds.


Essentially, the Legionnaire has three near guaranteed procs after using his ultimate.* Assuming Legionnaire is in the middle of a team battle, this would ensure he causes additional AoE damage after a blink + taunt + ult combo. This also means he isn't gambling on a 17% chance to be helpful after his initiation.

He has one guaranteed spin at level 6, two spins at level 11, and 3 spins at level 16. This would still take into account the mini cool-down of whirling blades.

The 10 second duration of the buff means the legionnaire has to really think about who to decapitate in a major team fight. He doesn't want to decapitate someone far away from his teammates and waste the buff as a result. He also doesn't want to save decapitate for the end of the fight, and waste his free spins. This encourages initiation and early ganking.

*I considered the buff only being applied on a successful kill via Decapitate. However, this encourages the Legionnaire to kill steal over a real carry, which is less than desirable considering his initiator role.

Conclusion:

The first change only occurs after hitting level 16 and getting rank 3 decapitate. The second change applies for all levels of decapitate (1,2,3 charges, based on level of Decapitate). The Legionnaire definitely requires better late game scaling. In addition to scaling, the ability to control whirling blade procs would be a nice additional to his arsenal overall.

Questions? Comments? Concerns?
Please post and thanks for reading my suggestion.


comp players do not like him because his ult forces him to TAKE a kill. this is not a fix your offering it is simply an unessesary buff, for kills his ult is fine but unfortunately as a tank/initiator you dont want to take kills from ur team.

[RogerDodger]

The fact that his ult KSs is not why 'comp players don't like him'.

200 gold or even 600-800 gold being on Legionnaire over a carry won't make a lick of difference when his other shortcomings are so much harder to deal with. He can't lane, he can't jungle without making himself wildly vulnerable, and he can't gank without a Portal Key.

Otherwise, he's a very strong hero mid-late game and can intiate pretty well, having a non-ultimate stun that goes through immunity and lasts 3 seconds.

[iSuckAtHON]

I got some suggestions (I've mentioned some of them before and others have mentioned them as well)

Taunt :

Slightly reduce cast time and make targets' attack speed [40/60/80/100%] faster with a 50% reduction in damage. This basically applies Terrified to taunted heroes/targets for 1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds.

Leap and Stomp (like Diablo Barbarian's leap):

Legionnaire leaps towards a targeted area landing with a stomp. Stuns enemies in a 200 radius (like Hammerstorm's Hammer throw). Does 100/150/200/250 magic damage and stuns targets for .5 seconds. Range increases from 600/725/850/1000)

Whirling blade (reworked):

Rather than having a series of random spins, this would be a charged based activated ability. CD is 3 seconds throughout, 1 hit (regardless of source and damage) gives lego 1 charge. Each charge adds 10/15/20/25 damage on top of 100 base spin damage with a maximum of 15 charges. So a fully charged lvl 2 Whirling blade would do 100 + 225 or 325 damage to enemy units in a 200 range. Animation wise, it's almost like the whirling blade in Savage 2, but it doesn't push enemies away, nor stuns.

Decapitate:

I was torn between reworking this ability or replacing it with a Rocket Launcher. Rocket Launcher would be an AOE ability where it damages and slows enemies within the area.

A reworked decapitate I think should still be based on a set number, but this number can be changed based on Lego's max damage to make him more competent against other KS heroes. If target has less than (lego's max damage)x3/3.5/4, target is instantly killed. So at lvl 12 when Lego has 120-126 damage, any hero below 430ish health would be instantly killed via decapitate. This would still be in line with the current threshold, but this new math would allow it to scale better late game. Also, when Decap is selected, killable targets will have an axe symbol on top of their heads to make it easier to see whose killable rather than do the math in real-time.

[Anakha]

base armour.

[AychAychAych]

Increasing stack limit by 1 or 2 would make wonders for him.
Reliable spin OR higher spin proc, not both.
There, jungling should be even faster for him.

Oh yeah max ms back to charge.

[PrestonLee]

I really don't think the jungling aspect of Legionaire or his farm is the problem for him, I feel fine with the stack limit at 3 and I exclusively play jungle heroes as my most played (Ophelia/Temp). I feel that increasing the stack limit would just make support heroes and trilanes even stronger by encouraging the supports to turn into "stack hoes" and stack for the carries all game long again.

But yeah, I think Legions jungling capability and farm rate is fine, it's just his unreliable spin, failure to combo charge+taunt, and KS ult that need to be looked at.

I really think a mini pushback similar to Rampages charge would do wonders for comboing taunt, at the very least to gaurantee taunt hitting the target that Legion charges.

[esT_aLKA]

Oh yeah max ms back to charge.

Back when it was max ms from lvl 1, this skill was a one point wonder, there was hardly any reason to skill it, other than increased damage.

S2 doesn't like one point wonders.

[AychAychAych]

Back when it was max ms from lvl 1, this skill was a one point wonder, there was hardly any reason to skill it, other than increased damage.

S2 doesn't like one point wonders.

But then the charge needs to be so powerful that there is a reason to level it over both spin or taunt. And we know that would be just ridiculous.