Backdooring issues

[Shandalzare]

Hi,
considering there is no rules/report to prevent this kind of game ruining this is why i'm writing this thread

this is now the 4th game i play and people backdoor
doesnt matter which side does, i think it just ruins game
if 1 backdoors, then the other team full backdoor, and it never ends
ruins game, and make it extra boring in 1/4s

so i'd suggest in the actual game, there won't be such things
backdooring isnt forbidden, i can imagine, but without this rule Dota is just another unmannered game where people are animals and trash each others

my opinion is:
have every building invincible untill any of any enemy creep is around it
something like 800-1000 square
(creep passive aura making building vulnerable for example, but not changing any of the graphics, and ofc not seeing this aura on the creeps)
-> backdooring becomes impossible, no big game changes,

hope you will consider this, and at least try to find a way to fix it,
best regards

[WiLL]

If they implement 6.6 changes from dota, towers should have an anti-backdoor type system, where without creeps they have huge regen.

[Atsuko]

backdooring is allowed in dota, why not hon?

[JewishFury]

I dont see how BDing ruins games

[Jesus]

Last time I checked homecoming stones counter someone trying to backdoor. No need to prevent it or add any anti-backdoor features.

[mrgoldfarb]

These whine posts are so annoying. Boo hoo I got owned so the whole game should change so I can win. Am I getting this right???

How about in the meantime, and it will be a long meantime, since I doubt bd will ever be completely disabled, you think up a way to counter people who backdoor? It sounds like what you're saying is that this "backdoor" strategy is overpowered or something, so why don't you capitalize on this knowledge? Could it be that you're simply too inept to pull this strategy off yourself, and this is what upsets you? News flash kid, this is a skill based game. Don't come crying cuz you lack the skill to deal with a strategy the game mechanics allow.

I'll tell you this much, if you play this game under the delusion that everyone will adhere to your personal set of rules & guidelines which are IMPOSSIBLE TO ENFORCE, expect frustration.

Instead of crying, why don't you go abuse this supposedly amazing bd strat, surely you should be able to win easily, creating more butthurt people like yourself who will come complain, which stand a much better chance at getting the game changed than your single whiner post.

[ain]

Adapt.

[Damage]

Backdooring is a strategy. It can be used to counter, and can be countered. The game is fine as is.

[Digicon]

Agreed with all of the said above.

[Neochrist]

Read This and know what you are. (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html)

[darkwave]

i find it funny that window lickers say "there was a rule about backdooring in dota"... when they're partially right, but totally wrong. the "no bd" rule was a pub thing, TDA games allowed it, and if you look real hard, you'll see nice big bold "BACKDOORING IS ALLOWED" wording in the game info...

learn to counter it, or learn to play another game... either way LEARN, because this kind of thing gets old after a while. kiddies cry because it's to hard to play because of x mechanic, so to keep the 6 year olds happy they change it... same thing goes for every game from dota to wow to hello kitty island adventure, and it needs to stop.

[dskzero]

Some leagues indeed disallowed backdooring. I'm not against bd, at all, I think it's valid when the whole opposing team takes a massive liking of standing in the base and nailing us when we try to attack.

Just, well, call no backdooring and kick the guy who backdoors. I dunno. Homecoming stones are your friend, though.

[Mrmisterwaa]

They need to apply the changes from Dota, the point of HoN was to make a game similar to it, but using a new engine and interface that it really needed.

It it isn't allowed in Dota, than it shouldn't be allowed in HoN.

[dskzero]

They need to apply the changes from Dota, the point of HoN was to make a game similar to it, but using a new engine and interface that it really needed.

It it isn't allowed in Dota, than it shouldn't be allowed in HoN.

FOr whatever's sacred: It isn't ilegal in dota either.

[F0restqt]

Backdooring is fine. :D

[WiLL]

Backdooring will always be a hot debate, most league / ladders around the world will state that BD of the first 2 towers without creep support is allowed but you have to enter the base with creeps, from then on you can move to any other buildings inside the base. Most people abide by this in PUB games as well.

[Magissia]

Backdoor is legit if S2Games don't make character unkillable if there is no creep renfort on the lane

[Tomske]

If they implement 6.6 changes from dota, towers should have an anti-backdoor type system, where without creeps they have huge regen.

Yeah, this would be great. Even though sometimes a backdoor saves the game. :P

[Isin]

It's not game ruining, you're just a noob who gets pissed off in pubs because you're too damn stupid to carry TPs with you.

[aif]

Once they implement the health regaining changes from DotA it should be fine.

But also, having played competitive DotA, it's only really considered backdooring if it is a base tower. And in that case, if you have creeps in their base in another lane, it isn't backdooring. Outside towers being killed without creeps is generally accepted. They even added glyph to this game so be aware and always carry tps if you really care about the outside towers. But if they're in your base killing your towers without creeps, I don't agree with that.

[XxByakuyaxX1]

Hi,
considering there is no rules/report to prevent this kind of game ruining this is why i'm writing this thread

this is now the 4th game i play and people backdoor
doesnt matter which side does, i think it just ruins game
if 1 backdoors, then the other team full backdoor, and it never ends
ruins game, and make it extra boring in 1/4s

so i'd suggest in the actual game, there won't be such things
backdooring isnt forbidden, i can imagine, but without this rule Dota is just another unmannered game where people are animals and trash each others

my opinion is:
have every building invincible untill any of any enemy creep is around it
something like 800-1000 square
(creep passive aura making building vulnerable for example, but not changing any of the graphics, and ofc not seeing this aura on the creeps)
-> backdooring becomes impossible, no big game changes,

hope you will consider this, and at least try to find a way to fix it,
best regards

There are 1000 threads on this already. Please spend 5 mins to read before posting.
BD is fine. 135 golds solve everything.
Nuf said

[pedobearpig]

sorry.

nvm

[mjukost]

Simply implement the option to rule out backdooring? when there's no enemy creeps close to your tower, it's indestructable. When creating a game you could add "no backdoor" under the advanced options, and everyone will be happy. Those who enjoy playing with backdooring allowed, can play BD games, those who dislikes backdooring, can play no BD games.

This would stop alot of complaints, and get rid of the whole "it's allowed" "it's not allowed" argument.

And also, if the creeps dies yet you're still hitting the tower, it should'nt go indestructable but as soon as you get out of range of the tower, it will. It might be hard to code, i've got no idea actually 'cause i suck at it, but it should bring more fun to the game.

[Atsuko]

They need to apply the changes from Dota, the point of HoN was to make a game similar to it, but using a new engine and interface that it really needed.

It it isn't allowed in Dota, than it shouldn't be allowed in HoN.

It's allowed in dota, which is why it's allowed in hon.

[willtsay]

care to explain how BD ruins the game (more in depth, imo none of the "examples" were truly valid)

i.e how does backdoor turn people into animals o_O. and whats wrong if both teams turn to backdoor (usually rare, generally the team with worse team battle capabilities try to backdoor, yet it is EASILY countered via wards, and holding teleportscrolls at all times.

how does it make it boring x( although this is subjective or w.e i find it adds more spice to the game, more to think about, more to prepare for -___-

imo the regen is fine and all, but i think it should reduce by a small amount for every hero you have helping you. the current regen (40hp/s) is pretty diculous, makes it almost futile to backdoor. (it takes MUCH longer to backdoor, its almost as if the tower is in fountain x( by the time you get it anywhere near the lower levels of health they will have tped there.

(imo reducing regen per hero or even out right removing all of it when you have 2 heroes at it is balanced because 1. you will definitely beat them in a team battle, you will have higher amount of health due to them having 2 less heroes. This will let you push faster anyway, as you generally will have creeps with you :P. You'll basically steam roll there base, making it even :P) (if its a 4v5, you can at some times fend them off, depending on your hero lineup, but if its a 3v5, then its much harder ;P

[Ass_Fister]

but backdooring you entire base while you're in the enemy base caring the enemy heroes is totally lame ...

[noside]

stop crying you skirts, learn to carry a teleport/posthaste with you or at least on one of your team members. sick of you people crying. boo hoo.

[zoder]

Reading just the title, I would have issues if someone was trying to get into my back door!!

[Slardar]

I've backdoor'd and have been backdoor'd before, its perfectly fair. Plus eventually they will impliment the regen crap to the towers. Will it stop Backdooring? NO of course not. People will still be able to do it but it just makes it more difficult. Not Backdooring is simply an unsaid rule in Dota but its perfectly fair, many people complain about it simply because they are going to win when BLAM they lose which is hilarious in my opinion when it happens idc what team I'm on when it happens, a loss is a loss and a win is a win

[muggy]

back dooring is a good last resort to winning a game, carrie homecoming stones!

[Endorphins]

nothing is stopping you from backdooring. if you really dont like to do it (i know i dont do it) then spend the 135 gold on the homecoming stone to stop it

[DenyTheTruth]

I can't say I've ever been in a game where I've seen someone backdoor.

I've been accused of backdooring, but the enemy had recently been "genocided" and all five of us were in the base so we just took out a side tower to speed up the end. There was no recovering and two lanes were already down so we saw no reason not to kill the tower.

Needless to say my team just said, "lol, that isn't backdooring. We're just ending the game" and then the end-game cinematic started.

[laamis]

personally i'd like some sort of bd prot and it has NOTHING to do with winning/losing.
imo the game just loses it's point if BDing is allowed.

[Tehleteness]

Back dooring is fine. Because of the current tower regen, it's not faster than pushing with creeps unless you have a lot of damage/attack speed.

Here's a solution to your back-dooring problem: Buy a homecoming stone. If you can't fend the back-doorers off by yourself, select any base building and throw on the invulnerability. If your entire team is dead when they are back dooring, you're probably screwed anyways.

[LiQuiD]

Backdooring can end a game in late game once you get enough hits on a tower and keep reviving with gold that you do not need it can end a game right there and then with the right items.

[LiQuiD]

There are 1000 threads on this already. Please spend 5 mins to read before posting.
BD is fine. 135 golds solve everything.
Nuf said

you obviously have not gone into a lategame where you have no slots for a tp

backdooring takes no skill u run in you hit. pushing a lane in other case takes skill because once you pushed hard enough a team battle can decide the game not backdooring and for example a team can all backdoor together which can definitly screw the other team over just losing 1 building

[Clockslap]

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

So backdooring is obviously a strategy. but so is map hacking then. according to the true definition. so is any means of achieving a goal in the game. so stop using the word strategy like it justifies the use of backdooring because it doesn't.

i've seen arguments go on and on, but the fact remains in dota if you did backdoor you were shunned but it wasnt a big deal because STATS and PSR did not exist. Now that it does it matters even more. PSR shouldn't go down because you die and not everyone on your team is smart enough to carry around a port to stop a backdoorer. Please focus on the essence of the game, the reason you should play it. To coordinate a 5 on 5 push in order to defeat the other team using your abilities to support your team and destroy your opponents.

It was BANNED in league games, all league games really and theres a reason for that.

[charlieeeh]

you obviously have not gone into a lategame where you have no slots for a tp
lol?

You know what's slightly earlier than that? The stage when you sell whatever boots you have for posthaste.


It was BANNED in league games, all league games really and theres a reason for that.
Allowed in almost all levels of competitive games on the asian scene. kingsurf almost runs a specific strat with yamateh on sf and (I forget who) on PL. Think before you spew out bullshit.

[Clockslap]

lol?

You know what's slightly earlier than that? The stage when you sell whatever boots you have for posthaste.


Allowed in almost all levels of competitive games on the asian scene. kingsurf almost runs a specific strat with yamateh on sf and (I forget who) on PL. Think before you spew out bullshit.

the asian scene right which doesn't make up the majority of the leagues, but yea ill remember that next time i play with all my asian friends that backdooring is allowed then. For that is the only point i see you making? I thought well before i spewed out true ****. Fact remains, majority of all do not allow it thanks bro.

[Flat_Head]

the asian scene right which doesn't make up the majority of the leagues, but yea ill remember that next time i play with all my asian friends that backdooring is allowed then. For that is the only point i see you making? I thought well before i spewed out true ****. Fact remains, majority of all do not allow it thanks bro.

Lol I can't wait till this discussion turns racist. I'd think twice before saying the majority of leagues happen outside of Asia, not that it really matters in this discussion.

[mikkolawl]

Remove glyph and make it so that only creeps can attack buildings.

People who cry about backdooring make me laugh. It reminds me of the same "game etiquette" argument people made in TFC about scouts not attacking people on the bridge at mid-map. Making up your own meta-game for a video game that already has clearly defined rules is retarded.

BD is a STRATEGY !!!!
Why is so complicated to understand it ???
holy **** !!!

[Excremento]

BD is the worst way to win a game, legal but gay. Requires no skill and prooves ur lack of capability to win team fights.

[DaarkSTorM]

The only thing that should be restricted is Nymphora TP'ing straight into the ennemy base (like furion in DotA). IMO it's not really fair that she can TP with 2 allys right on you rax. Otherwise, BD is a decent strategy that is very easily to counter. Learn to deal with it, I doubt it will be removed ever.

[Suiraclaw]

Nymphora can't TP into the enemy base. More specific you can't teleport behind the second enemy tower in any lane.

Unless that was a bug that has been stealth fixed, but I doubt it.

[Don_]

so what if the huts just gave the HQ building passive regen?

[Pudgeinabowl]

The main problem leagues have with b'dooring is not the solo rax, it was conceded if you've let any one hero get to that point your pretty much screwed anyway. Only a few characters can pull it off reliably without being totally farmed (ie spirit bear).

B'dooring started with people complaining about blinkers farming up and easy +1k from the money buildings, which particularly tough and most aren't covered by towers, any that are can be tanked for the short amount of time it takes to bash up the buildings.
Pretty much it evolved from that. I think the 6.6 implement would be fine, as having to lose a character to TP back to base just to scare off some antimage (because they won't fight, because you won't be dumb enough to tp back if you can't 1v1). So you've spent 135gold, gained nothing, weakened your push, all just because am wandered out of the neuts to snag around 100-300gold in the time it takes you to get back.

It MIGHT be a legitimate strategy, but really its a dick of a thing to do with buildings in HoN being fairly squishy. The regen makes this harder (not impossible, just takes a little while longer, and the building won't be sitting on a quarter health when the bugger does it again)

So a simple regen would fix this, i'm sure HoN on its shiny new engine has the capacity to add an aura to creep that passes on the the hero until they TP or cross out of the base. (as the creep are fragile and most often die mid base rax, you DON'T have to leave once you've gone in).

[Domel]

I have not yet encountered backdoor so i belive most players understands what backdoor is and they dont consider it as legit strategy ...
also everyone understands what backdoor is - in short sneaking attack aiming to kill buildings without pushing the line.

suggestion making buildings invur when there are no creeps around - would lead us to new abuse - sneak behind enemy offense kill creeps , while some aoe finishes the creeps that were coming with push - virtually forces the team to move back to "escort" the creeps.

S2 will probably keep things for players to decide like it was in dota - those against backdoor will ban and avoid playing with those that do it - things solve themselves

As for suggestion i can only think about this:

Give huge defense bonus to building (95% not inv ) if friendly creeps are some distance in front of the building - lets say if friendly creeps are 2000 distance in front of the building - the building becomes fortified.

[ShamanSexy]

just go backedoored while it was 4(my team) v 5

[mrdragon88]

i just recently played a game where we got backdoored, and which one of the heroes were jereziah.
ran in with a couple of heroes with his ulti and gged our towers

it was ****ed up.

before you say get diffusional blade, we did have one guy who had it. but ran out of charges.

are you going to say sell some of your items to make more?
would you do it?

[Crosis]

Stop Crying, this game is about strategic play, how is it smart to follow creeps for 30-40 seconds giving the other team time to rez and run over to the tower that you are going to?

[gral]

just my quick opinion to one of the billions of others of the same exact ****. backdooring is a ***** move thats about it. if your gonna get so pissy about it every time you see it happen adapt to it.

[Clockslap]

Stop Crying, this game is about strategic play, how is it smart to follow creeps for 30-40 seconds giving the other team time to rez and run over to the tower that you are going to?

Id say it takes just as much of a brain to wait for creeps than it is to go into a base and start banging on towers and racks. Also the whole point of the game is to push lanes with creeps. thats why creeps are there and thats why towers are there in the first place, to ward of enemy creeps and heroes.

and again read my earlier post, according to the definition of strategy everything that is in pursuit of achieving a goal is strategy including map hacking. So everyone should be able to map hack to since that does fit the definition of a strategy.

[P33p3rs]

I can't be the only person who is so tired of seeing these types of threads, I really wish suggesting implementing an anti-backdooring rule was just a perma-ban... its pointless

[Crosis]

just my quick opinion to one of the billions of others of the same exact ****. backdooring is a ***** move thats about it. if your gonna get so pissy about it every time you see it happen adapt to it.

How is it a ***** move EXPLAIN. Id love to hear the reasoning besides "i dont like it therefore it is" explain how its strategic to push with a lane of creeps that could be nowhere near the tower giving the enemy team time to prepare.

[Crosis]

Id say it takes just as much of a brain to wait for creeps than it is to go into a base and start banging on towers and racks. Also the whole point of the game is to push lanes with creeps. thats why creeps are there and thats why towers are there in the first place, to ward of enemy creeps and heroes.

and again read my earlier post, according to the definition of strategy everything that is in pursuit of achieving a goal is strategy including map hacking. So everyone should be able to map hack to since that does fit the definition of a strategy.


Really? im pretty sure the point of the creeps in the lanes is to level off of and get gold from, and to use them to push towers you cant take down without the tower beating on them.

Map hack and backdoor is two totally different things, dont be ignorant.

[Clockslap]

Really? im pretty sure the point of the creeps in the lanes is to level off of and get gold from, and to use them to push towers you cant take down without the tower beating on them.

Map hack and backdoor is two totally different things, dont be ignorant.

no **** map hack and backdoor are different things READ THE POST BRO. Map hacking = strategy backdooring = strategy

as you said backdooring is a strat and therefor its fine, but again so is map hacking, go get your dictionary and look up the definition.

[Crosis]

no **** map hack and backdoor are different things READ THE POST BRO. Map hacking = strategy backdooring = strategy

as you said backdooring is a strat and therefor its fine, but again so is map hacking, go get your dictionary and look up the definition.

No map hacking is cheating and using tools outside of what the game provides for an advantage. Backdooring isnt, backdooring is something whiney brats like yourself made up because people were able to take down towers without creep waves and won games because of it while you fought their team etc so you cried about it.

You have glyph of fortifications to make your buildings invuln and ports to defend your tower, if someone can take down towers without creep waves then more power to them, they arent there during team fights and if they are so monstrous someone cant tp to stop them then once again thats your fault.

[Zkarn]

I dont think maphacking is a strategy because it require 3rd party program to modify the existing rule of the game. Take like having twice as much health in a fighting game. Backdoor is actually doable in the game and is something that you can do and exploit at the moment. Wether or not if they want to remove it or not, it is something that can bring you to victory and that is simply why you should use it. Not using it would be stupid if it can make you win. Now maybe it is called cheap and not fair or whatever, but the important here is to know that no one care about it and if you win, you win; backdoor or not one lose the game the other win.

[Clockslap]

No map hacking is cheating and using tools outside of what the game provides for an advantage. Backdooring isnt, backdooring is something whiney brats like yourself made up because people were able to take down towers without creep waves and won games because of it while you fought their team etc so you cried about it.

You have glyph of fortifications to make your buildings invuln and ports to defend your tower, if someone can take down towers without creep waves then more power to them, they arent there during team fights and if they are so monstrous someone cant tp to stop them then once again thats your fault.

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

definition pure and simple, anything even cheating is still a strategy? its an unfair one but who gets to decide whats fair? you? HA!

The truth is backdooring is cheap to some and not to others, but the game wasn't made with the idea of backdooring being the way to win, icefrog you know that guy that made it kinda? even said so. so.... of all people who gets to decide whats cheap/cheating in dota is him. not you and not me.

[Crosis]

A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal.

definition pure and simple, anything even cheating is still a strategy? its an unfair one but who gets to decide whats fair? you? HA!

The truth is backdooring is cheap to some and not to others, but the game wasn't made with the idea of backdooring being the way to win, icefrog you know that guy that made it kinda? even said so. so.... of all people who gets to decide whats cheap/cheating in dota is him. not you and not me.

How is it cheap, explain how its cheap i really want to know. If you dont feel to explain how its cheap then stfu cause you have no valid arugement or anything to fall on.

If you try and use that creep are there to attack tower bs again then dont even try.

And cheating with maphack isnt a valid strategy but backdoor is. You cant really compare the 2 and you know it youre reaching for straws atm, so please post again and look like a tool.

[Clockslap]

How is it cheap, explain how its cheap i really want to know. If you dont feel to explain how its cheap then stfu cause you have no valid arugement or anything to fall on.

If you try and use that creep are there to attack tower bs again then dont even try.

And cheating with maphack isnt a valid strategy but backdoor is. You cant really compare the 2 and you know it youre reaching for straws atm, so please post again and look like a tool.

LOL reaching for straws?

your argument in your original post was pretty much that backdoor is a strategy so therefor it should be allowed? i tore that argument a new ******* because maphacking is a strat. AGAIN NOT A FAIR STRAT. But its still a strat which negates your argument about backdooring "being valid due to it being a form of strategy."

The true argument for people with a brain, is whether or not backdooring is legitimate, fair, and whether it ruins the game in anyway or not.

Saying backdoor is a valid strat makes me wonder if you even played dota ever? or if your just some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about. Right now im going with number 2 because backdooring was disallowed in leagues that mattered (yea reworded) as in competitive play. Also the creator of the original game also implemented things to prevent backdooring because he saw it as a problem as well. so lol grabbing at straws, im trying to figure out what your argument is besides OMG BACKDOORING IS A STRAT LOLOLOL OMGOMGOMG

[BeetleJuices]

If bding was such a big problem in dota they would of implemented something like you were suggesting but they didn't. Why? because no back dooring are players rules and not the game/maps rules.

[Clockslap]

If bding was such a big problem in dota they would of implemented something like you were suggesting but they didn't. Why? because no back dooring are players rules and not the game/maps rules.

they did implement something.. they increased the regen on buildings when creeps are not present making it a lot harder to take down a tower without creeps.

to be exact... this.

The gameplay has been changed by the addition of a new type of armor that was given to buildings. The regeneration armor will disappear whenever there are nearby creeps (or corpses). It will get restored back, if 15 seconds will pass without a nearby unit. Should a tower or a barrack take damage without the regeneration armor, the lost life will never be naturally regenerated. With the regeneration armor, the building's HP (http://www.softpedia.com/reviews/games/pc/DotA-Allstars-Map-Review-113845.shtml#) will regenerate at a rate of 40hp/seconds.

[Crosis]

LOL reaching for straws?

your argument in your original post was pretty much that backdoor is a strategy so therefor it should be allowed? i tore that argument a new ******* because maphacking is a strat. AGAIN NOT A FAIR STRAT. But its still a strat which negates your argument about backdooring "being valid due to it being a form of strategy."

The true argument for people with a brain, is whether or not backdooring is legitimate, fair, and whether it ruins the game in anyway or not.

Saying backdoor is a valid strat makes me wonder if you even played dota ever? or if your just some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about. Right now im going with number 2 because backdooring was disallowed in leagues that mattered (yea reworded) as in competitive play. Also the creator of the original game also implemented things to prevent backdooring because he saw it as a problem as well. so lol grabbing at straws, im trying to figure out what your argument is besides OMG BACKDOORING IS A STRAT LOLOLOL OMGOMGOMG


Still waiting for why its unfair or cheap. You havent explained why, all your doing is spewing bullshit so im guessing you have no idea what youre talking about so now youre just face rolling on your kb.

Pretty much all im seeing for you is "Im a newb and i have no idea what im talking about but BD is bad because i say so, i dont know why its bad i just will keep saying its bad". By all means you can try and mock me but you havent even done a good job at that.

You tore nothing up btw, maphacking is cheating not a valid strat so comparing it to BD is still fail from you. BUT PLEASE TRY AGAIN.

And all you have done is say they implemented stuff in DoTA to change it, but you cant even answer why its bad, pretty funny actually.

[Clockslap]

Still waiting for why its unfair or cheap. You havent explained why, all your doing is spewing bullshit so im guessing you have no idea what youre talking about so now youre just face rolling on your kb.

Pretty much all im seeing for you is "Im a newb and i have no idea what im talking about but BD is bad because i say so, i dont know why its bad i just will keep saying its bad". By all means you can try and mock me but you havent even done a good job at that.

You tore nothing up btw, maphacking is cheating not a valid strat so comparing it to BD is still fail from you. BUT PLEASE TRY AGAIN.

And all you have done is say they implemented stuff in DoTA to change it, but you cant even answer why its bad, pretty funny actually.

holy **** bro read my post i list several references including icefrog and the all the dota leagues in order to show you what support my argument has. I havent given you many reasons or my opinions on why backdooring is unfair so much because im to busy telling you over and over and over like smacking your head against a brick wall that maphacking IS A STRATEGY. Like i dont know how to prove it anymore than giving you the actual definition of what a STRATGEY IS. Map hacking is a STRAT, backdooring is a STRAT. Obviously maphacking is unfair and cheating but again CHEATING IS A STRATEGY. Once you can get that through your head then i will give you opinions and arguments on why backdooring is unfair and or ruins the game imo but your brain cant seem to take much information in at once since this is like the 4th response where i again had to tell you that CHEATING/MAPHACKING IS A STRATEGY.

[Crosis]

holy **** bro read my post i list several references including icefrog and the all the dota leagues in order to show you what support my argument has. I havent given you many reasons or my opinions on why backdooring is unfair so much because im to busy telling you over and over and over like smacking your head against a brick wall that maphacking IS A STRATEGY. Like i dont know how to prove it anymore than giving you the actual definition of what a STRATGEY IS. Map hacking is a STRAT, backdooring is a STRAT. Obviously maphacking is unfair and cheating but again CHEATING IS A STRATEGY. Once you can get that through your head then i will give you opinions and arguments on why backdooring is unfair and or ruins the game imo but your brain cant seem to take much information in at once since this is like the 4th response where i again had to tell you that CHEATING/MAPHACKING IS A STRATEGY.

Ok BD is a legit strat and Maphacking is a cheating strat.

So You gonna act like a child somemore or you gonna actually give 1 valid reason as to why BD is unfair or cheap? Because at this point i think you really dont have any good reasons besides the "Lane creeps are made for the towers" which is pretty wrong to say the least.

[charlieeeh]

Maphacking involes a 3rd party program. If you can maphack within the realms of the game, go for it. But then it'd just be a bug, now wouldn't it?

[Clockslap]

Ok BD is a legit strat and Maphacking is a cheating strat.

So You gonna act like a child somemore or you gonna actually give 1 valid reason as to why BD is unfair or cheap? Because at this point i think you really dont have any good reasons besides the "Lane creeps are made for the towers" which is pretty wrong to say the least.

I think that a level of backdooring is acceptable, but full backdoor on buildings especially like racks is retarded.

Lane creeps are there to push and kill the enemy, notice that they do continue even if heroes arent there or in the game. They will eventually push into an enemies base and destroy it. Heroes jobs are to push into a base and protect their own from oncoming heroes and creeps. Do i think backdooring is a legit strat? well yea i mean it makes sense to go and destory buildings that makes you win the game. Do i think backdooring ruins the point of a 5 on 5 hero battle with coordinated strategies and hero picks in the begging of the game on the basis of their abilities etc. yes i think it ruins the game. It seems sensible and since you are allowed to right now it seems really sensible to go destroy towers in order win with or without creeps. Its not about being with creeps though its about team battles because thats what the games about. The better team deserves the victory not the team that has a really buff scout or madman who can backdoor a racks in 10 seconds. A port isnt going to stop that especially since you might need more than one person to stop the backdoor from happening. Its retarded to have half your team port back to base when you are trying to make a push in order to win because one hero can walk into your base and destroy it that fast.

[Clockslap]

Maphacking involes a 3rd party program. If you can maphack within the realms of the game, go for it. But then it'd just be a bug, now wouldn't it?

i was just making a point, i don't think maphacking is like legit or something? just saying its a form of strategy just like any.

[Crosis]

I think that a level of backdooring is acceptable, but full backdoor on buildings especially like racks is retarded.

Lane creeps are there to push and kill the enemy, notice that they do continue even if heroes arent there or in the game. They will eventually push into an enemies base and destroy it. Heroes jobs are to push into a base and protect their own from oncoming heroes and creeps. Do i think backdooring is a legit strat? well yea i mean it makes sense to go and destory buildings that makes you win the game. Do i think backdooring ruins the point of a 5 on 5 hero battle with coordinated strategies and hero picks in the begging of the game on the basis of their abilities etc. yes i think it ruins the game. It seems sensible and since you are allowed to right now it seems really sensible to go destroy towers in order win with or without creeps. Its not about being with creeps though its about team battles because thats what the games about. The better team deserves the victory not the team that has a really buff scout or madman who can backdoor a racks in 10 seconds. A port isnt going to stop that especially since you might need more than one person to stop the backdoor from happening. Its retarded to have half your team port back to base when you are trying to make a push in order to win because one hero can walk into your base and destroy it that fast.

Ok, so the creeps can push towers etc, but alot of times they do not. The creeps in lanes mainly just take the hits of towers while the catapults kill them. They generally just get aoed down unless they are mega creeps.

With the whole team strat thing, if one guy is BDing and his team loses him BDing wont win them the game 80% of the time, the best times to BD is when 1 hero is down so its 4v4 or when multiple are down and your team isnt going to be hurt with you not there.

The team can Glyph and port back if its that bad, but if a madman is destroying the towers etc in 10 seconds thats the teams fault for letting him farm so much.

[charlieeeh]

i was just making a point, i don't think maphacking is like legit or something? just saying its a form of strategy just like any.
Well, your point is invalid.

Maphacking and backdooring are not related and cannot be compared because of the whole 3rd party application thing.

Quoting myself after reviewing copyright laws:

[Backdooring is] not unsportsmanlike in the very least. It's a pub player's way of complaining about non-existent bullshit so they can continue their farming without having to spend 135 gold to defend or 200 gold on a pair of eyeball lollipops.

It's not frowned upon in the slightest unless it's specifically written in the league/tournament rules that it's a bannable offense. Both teams are given the ability to backdoor, and certain both teams are certainly capable of defending against it. In fact, backdooring often results in a disadvantage against teams prepared for it. You will be outnumbered and you will be outinitiated.

Quite frankly, it's a part of DotA. It's not like it's new and revolutionary or anything, if IceFrog wanted it gone, it would've been gone. But it's not, so deal with it.

[Clockslap]

Well, your point is invalid.

Maphacking and backdooring are not related and cannot be compared because of the whole 3rd party application thing.

holy crap really? read previous posts before responding next time please.

Its valid due to the fact that "A strategy is a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal."

The goal obviously being, winning the game. If map hacking helps you achieve such a goal it is then a strategy for that goal.

the points being that map hacking is a strat as i just proved. and backdooring is also a strat which is in pursuit of the same goal as map hacking. Both are strats one could use to win a game. your 3rd party crap is irrelevant because thats your opinion.

[charlieeeh]

Thank you for your dictionary definition.

Now apply common sense.

Yes, my 3rd party "crap" is totally opinion right? I mean, clearly maphacking is built-in.

And "strat", "strat", "strat". How closeminded. Maphacking is a strat? So what?

[Clockslap]

Ok, so the creeps can push towers etc, but alot of times they do not. The creeps in lanes mainly just take the hits of towers while the catapults kill them. They generally just get aoed down unless they are mega creeps.

With the whole team strat thing, if one guy is BDing and his team loses him BDing wont win them the game 80% of the time, the best times to BD is when 1 hero is down so its 4v4 or when multiple are down and your team isnt going to be hurt with you not there.

The team can Glyph and port back if its that bad, but if a madman is destroying the towers etc in 10 seconds thats the teams fault for letting him farm so much.

not really, ive seen a 3-8 madman with buff items, especially if it was an em game. which i dont really play but its still a mode in this game and is relevant as well. treads butterfly and vlads is all madman needs to backdoor easily. plus maybe he is just doing ok? 6-4? your team is doing better but he still gets enough gold easily by neuts and farming lanes + a few kills to get the items he needs to own mid-late game.

[Clockslap]

Thank you for your dictionary definition.

Now apply common sense.

Yes, my 3rd party "crap" is totally opinion right? I mean, clearly maphacking is built-in.

And "strat", "strat", "strat". How closeminded. Maphacking is a strat? So what?

well it wasnt in response to you originally, which you would have known if you had read... but multiple people have tried to justify backdooring being fair and ok because its a strategy. all i said was so is maphacking by definition. not really close minded at all actually its the other way around but iiiight.

its not about maphacking being built in dude.. im not saying backdooring is on the same level as maphacking. it was a simple point that some people just dont seem to get. backdooring isnt justifiable because its a strategy that is all.

hell maybe i know the opposing teams players in real life and in order to win i went next door and literally shot their carry in the head IRL in order win the game that would still be a strat by definition thats all the maphacking point was in there for lol...

[charlieeeh]

Backdooring is not on the same level as maphacking. One is built-in, one is a 3rd party program. You can't possibly be that dense.

They're both '"strategies", but so what? You spend all this time trying to prove maphacking is "strategy", now I'm giving it to you. Now what?

EDIT: Misread post. So you're agreeing that backdooring is NOT on the same level as maphacking, then what other comparisons are you making?

[LegoPirate]

hes saying the excuse of it being a strategy is not a justification

(please dont flame me, just explaining what he said)

edit: what i just wrote made no sense

hes sayign that maphacking is a strategy and bd is a strategy, but just because they are strategies doesnt mean they are ok.


and yes, he understands that bd and mh are on 2 different levels, hes just using mh as an example.

[charlieeeh]

Backdooring is adds a new element to "defense" of the ancients. If you can't defend a 1500 immobile building that automatically reduces incoming by 50%, then again 50%+ through its innate armor, that's your problem. There are risks and rewards when you backdoor, but there are no risks (relatively speaking) to maphacking. That's the difference.

Your turn.

[Clockslap]

Backdooring is not on the same level as maphacking. One is built-in, one is a 3rd party program. You can't possibly be that dense.

They're both '"strategies", but so what? You spend all this time trying to prove maphacking is "strategy", now I'm giving it to you. Now what?

EDIT: Misread post. So you're agreeing that backdooring is NOT on the same level as maphacking, then what other comparisons are you making?

well that was originally the only comparison i was making for the most part in response to someone but they ^^^ didnt seem to understand and kept saying maphacking wasnt a strat.

but along with that as i said icefrog + majority of dota leagues frowned on backdooring not to mention banned it in league/competitive play. icefrog did try and do something to prevent backdooring as i said up there a few posts ago with towers and regen.

again do i think that backdooring ruins the essence and fun of the game? yes

but do i think that backdooring is 100% retarded and should be banned? not quite...

i think as long as creeps are in the base then attacking any lanes towers is fair game. But i think backdooring a racks is just dumb because thats a game changing building. front towers acceptable, racks is not however in my opinion.

[charlieeeh]

but along with that as i said icefrog + majority of dota leagues frowned on backdooring not to mention banned it in league/competitive play.
Wrong, most asian tournaments allow it. Other leagues allow outside tower backdooring, and even more allow backdooring after 50/60 min.


icefrog did try and do something to prevent backdooring as i said up there a few posts ago with towers and regen.
Yes, and the key there is: he didn't remove it. I'm all for adding the tower regen in HoN, but prohibiting altogether is stupid and unjustified.

[Clockslap]

Backdooring is adds a new element to "defense" of the ancients. If you can't defend a 1500 immobile building that automatically reduces incoming by 50%, then again 50%+ through its innate armor, that's your problem. There are risks and rewards when you backdoor, but there are no risks (relatively speaking) to maphacking. That's the difference.

Your turn.

1-2 players could litearly destroy that building mid-late game (depending on items they have) in less than 10 seconds. even if i do port to defend they will take a huge chunck of hp out and then bail once i port probably. in the case of madman or scout or other invis heroes they can just chill right outside my base and wait for me to leave again and then go right back in.

[Clockslap]

Wrong, most asian tournaments allow it. Other leagues allow outside tower backdooring, and even more allow backdooring after 50/60 min.


Yes, and the key there is: he didn't remove it. I'm all for adding the tower regen in HoN, but prohibiting altogether is stupid and unjustified.

o im not saying remove it completely, but towers are pussies late game especially for carry heroes with lifesteal.

[LegoPirate]

there is a tower glyph ya know.

also, why not 5 man push and kill their throne while they bd?

edit: lifesteal doesnt work on towers..... atleast it shouldnt?

[Jundaddy]

BACKDOORING IS PERFECTLY LEGAL MAN, quit your stupid whining and learn the game. Of course ICEFROG didn't intend for the game to be 100% backdoor, but that doesn't mean that he wanted to game to be 0% backdoor either. I'm all for balances to make raxes tougher w/o creeps and whatnot, but it should be balanced to a point where backdooring is still a legitimate strategy to win games. It is an integral part of the game and adds a lot of risk and reward, and yes, it is often performed by a losing team as a last ditch effort to win. What's wrong with that? I think it keeps the game exciting.

Many important leagues keep backdoor legal, please somebody bring me proof of any existing leagues that still ban backdooring.

If you let a 1-10 madman backdoor your base, you deserve to lose for 4 good reasons
1) not finishing the game when he's obviously been feeding
2) letting him farm creeps
3) not backdooring his team
4) not buying a fckn teleport scroll

[Clockslap]

Wrong, most asian tournaments allow it. Other leagues allow outside tower backdooring, and even more allow backdooring after 50/60 min.




and most leagues are very very very strict on backdooring actually, some even prohibit attacking towers without creep support at all even if an enemy player is going to deny it. so yea...

[Clockslap]

there is a tower glyph ya know.

also, why not 5 man push and kill their throne while they bd?

edit: lifesteal doesnt work on towers..... atleast it shouldnt?


because you have to push with creep support? you cant be prepared for a backdoor response push really? how do you get your entire team over to theirr base before someone takes out buildings in your base when they are already there?

[charlieeeh]

Honest, it's risk vs reward when it comes to backdooring. If you get caught, you might've cost your team the game. And quite frankly, if you suspect backdooring, you should have wards. There's so many ways around backdooring that it's pretty ridiculous.

[Clockslap]

BACKDOORING IS PERFECTLY LEGAL MAN, quit your stupid whining and learn the game. Of course ICEFROG didn't intend for the game to be 100% backdoor, but that doesn't mean that he wanted to game to be 0% backdoor either. I'm all for balances to make raxes tougher w/o creeps and whatnot, but it should be balanced to a point where backdooring is still a legitimate strategy to win games. It is an integral part of the game and adds a lot of risk and reward, and yes, it is often performed by a losing team as a last ditch effort to win. What's wrong with that? I think it keeps the game exciting.

Many important leagues keep backdoor legal, please somebody bring me proof of any existing leagues that still ban backdooring.

If you let a 1-10 madman backdoor your base, you deserve to lose for 4 good reasons
1) not finishing the game when he's obviously been feeding
2) letting him farm creeps
3) not backdooring his team
4) not buying a fckn teleport scroll

lololol i love this response, dont nerd rage to hard on me geeze. PERFECTLY LEGAL MAN. Yea right you should go to prison if you backdoor clearly is what im saying.

also read what i just said, i never said anywhere that 0% backdooring is what i want. in fact i state clearly that isnt what i want in quite a few posts.

and just a heads up the majority of all leagues (non-asian i get it) are completely anti-backdoor. try googling backdooring rules im sure ull find plenty.

[Clockslap]

Honest, it's risk vs reward when it comes to backdooring. If you get caught, you might've cost your team the game. And quite frankly, if you suspect backdooring, you should have wards. There's so many ways around backdooring that it's pretty ridiculous.

you mean theres so many ways to prevent it from happening? well kind of.. but you shouldnt have to place wards by your base to give yourself more warning on backdoors, the only real counter to it is a port. which smart players allways carry mid-late game yes. but that shouldnt be required to win a game especially a pub game? i cant expect to have 4 other descent players on my team in a pub game come on... let alone good players who are smart enough to respond to that as a team. and i shouldnt lose PSR because of a backdoor in a pub game thats just stupid.

[LegoPirate]

and i shouldnt lose PSR because of a backdoor in a pub game thats just stupid.


simple fix, dont worry about your psr. stats dont matter (for the most part)

[Clockslap]

simple fix, dont worry about your psr. stats dont matter (for the most part)

o i agree.. but it does show players who are half descent compared to terrible. and playing in the 1700+ games makes for a better game that playing with 1300-1400 people.. i think psr is dumb in the first place or needs to be fixed but thats not how everyone feels, autobalance and kicking players with low psr is pretty standard.

[LegoPirate]

you would be suprised. i know a few beast 1400's. and more then one retarded 1700. i guess it can sort of give a ballpark, but not a very good one.

[Droggeltasse]

I think there should be a new patch that supports backdoring *g*, or at least some alternative tactic to turn a game around.

Public games dont suffer from backdooring they suffer from the fact that in most games( cant say anything about pro games) you can say who will win after the first 20 min, but the game lasts 50 min !
The general prob of this game is that the matches last way longer then they should if 2 guys can solo a tower, or they can rush your base without creeps you have farmed them to long instead of finish them before they became this strong.

For tourneys or competitive why not, if people want it.
In public games backdooring is the one and only thing at the moment that makes games intresting when you are 15 kills behind or lead 15 kills.

In Savage 2 there was a similar diskussion about backdooring after a patch that supported it.(commander was able to give players gold so they can buy siege units) Now 2 month later all good players have adjusted their play and backdooring has become even harder cause everybody pays so much attention to deny it.

[Clockslap]

you would be suprised. i know a few beast 1400's. and more then one retarded 1700. i guess it can sort of give a ballpark, but not a very good one.

o know i completely agree, ive been with a team with like 3 1700+ and its an sd game, 2 of them pick scout and madman right away... thats pretty much gg already i know probably, i think a lot of people just play apem all day and pick agi carry heroes or something? idk haha

[LegoPirate]

o know i completely agree, ive been with a team with like 3 1700+ and its an sd game, 2 of them pick scout and madman right away... thats pretty much gg already i know probably, i think a lot of people just play apem all day and pick agi carry heroes or something? idk haha

play apem noobs only all day. i know a few people that do this.

[nebu]

i just backdoor to piss you off :D and now i do it as often as i can..

as long as the game ALLOWS it, it isnt illegal! play tetris if you cant handle it!

[Clockslap]

i just backdoor to piss you off :D and now i do it as often as i can..

as long as the game ALLOWS it, it isnt illegal! play tetris if you cant handle it!

do it all you want idc it doesnt piss me off lol

[nebu]

me neither and i dont get why are they whining? its like you play tennis and arent allowed to run towards the net and just slighty hit the ball??? wtf guys

[LegoPirate]

me neither and i dont get why are they whining? its like you play tennis and arent allowed to run towards the net and just slighty hit the ball??? wtf guys

its because people feel its agianst the spirit of the game.

tennis its to make your opponent make a mistake.

hon, its to make your creeps go all the way to the enemy throne.

[Jstorm]

backdoor FTW!

[LegoPirate]

backdoor FTW!

just fyi, the link in your sig needs to be made into an image.

might wanna fix that.

[Droggeltasse]

hon, its to make your creeps go all the way to the enemy throne.

were you got that wikipedia ? lol

thats no argument against bd, this diskussion misses the point why bd should be not considered a valuable tactic or why its good for the game.

Maybe implent a no bd mod and call it -sm slow mode *g*

[KaliKot]

I bet backdooring threads will still be common in 2020

If icefrog didnt want any backdooring he would have made towers invulnerable rather than having regen in the first place

I remember in some of the Dota maps when you read the Map Info (F9) i think it clearly stats that TDA rules has Backdoor is Legal

stop pulling bd is illegal stuff out of your asses

[LegoPirate]

I bet backdooring threads will still be common in 2020

If icefrog didnt want any backdooring he would have made towers invulnerable rather than having regen in the first place

I remember in some of the Dota maps when you read the Map Info (F9) i think it clearly stats that TDA rules has Backdoor is Legal

stop pulling bd is illegal stuff out of your asses


TDA is garbage. i dare you to quote SYN or DXD at that point.

noone said backdooring is illegal. it is illegal in alot of leagues (not asian ones, as mentioned previously)

icefrog put TDA in there because TDA used to be decent. devolving into a publeague is a very long road.

hell, TDA used to be the only dota league.

please dont personally attack me, as i dont particularly care one way or the other

if bd is around, i will use it when i need to

if it isnt, i wont. simple as that.

[Hypson]

Or just meet one another in the middle and add anti-bd as a game options.

[Jackaruu]

Any attempt at stopping BDing will cause problems with other things. BDing is a part of DoTA/HoN. Just get over it, if you don't have a homecoming stone its your own fault. If you do, they just gave you a free kill.

That being said, the only time I could see myself doing it is in a really close game where my team is fully raxxed. Two choices: Outright loose or risk trying to BD. Would be pretty epic to come back from that.

[RIPintheblue]

It's not game ruining, you're just a noob who gets pissed off in pubs because you're too damn stupid to carry TPs with you.
agreed

[Clockslap]

Any attempt at stopping BDing will cause problems with other things. BDing is a part of DoTA/HoN. Just get over it, if you don't have a homecoming stone its your own fault. If you do, they just gave you a free kill.

That being said, the only time I could see myself doing it is in a really close game where my team is fully raxxed. Two choices: Outright loose or risk trying to BD. Would be pretty epic to come back from that.

any attempt to stop BDing will cause other problems such as? add the regen to the towers make it harder like they did in dota and thats good enough for me pretty much it seemed to prevent it in dota for the most part.

and porting with a stone to stop a backdoor is definately not a free kill, what is it 3-4 seconds for it to port? i forget, but more than enough time for the backdoorer to bail out.

[charlieeeh]

TDA is garbage. i dare you to quote SYN or DXD at that point.

noone said backdooring is illegal. it is illegal in alot of leagues (not asian ones, as mentioned previously)

icefrog put TDA in there because TDA used to be decent. devolving into a publeague is a very long road.

hell, TDA used to be the only dota league.

please dont personally attack me, as i dont particularly care one way or the other

if bd is around, i will use it when i need to

if it isnt, i wont. simple as that.
TDA level is on-par with DXD. I don't see how DXD is superior in the slightest. DXD is TDA but on west. They're pubs without leavers, the occasional pro here and there.

And just fyi, TDA bans bd-ing.

[Isin]

TDA is garbage. i dare you to quote SYN or DXD at that point.

Lol.


i dare you to quote SYN or DXD at that point.

Lol.


quote SYN or DXD

Lol.


DXD

Cool story bro.

[daywiss]

match 3248916. a 90 minute or so game where backdooring completely turned the game around. we would of gotten super creeps + had 2 lanes intact pushing the old fashioned way, but a fully farmed madman backdoored and was just too powerful to stop without the whole team there. it was really unfortunate that we lost that game. We had a tempest + refresher on our team, had we been able to all fight head on, madman would not of survived very long.

[dskzero]

match 3248916. a 90 minute or so game where backdooring completely turned the game around. we would of gotten super creeps + had 2 lanes intact pushing the old fashioned way, but a fully farmed madman backdoored and was just too powerful to stop without the whole team there. it was really unfortunate that we lost that game. We had a tempest + refresher on our team, had we been able to all fight head on, madman would not of survived very long.

That was the problem.

[rpg711]

TDA is garbage. i dare you to quote SYN or DXD at that point.

noone said backdooring is illegal. it is illegal in alot of leagues (not asian ones, as mentioned previously)

icefrog put TDA in there because TDA used to be decent. devolving into a publeague is a very long road.

hell, TDA used to be the only dota league.

please dont personally attack me, as i dont particularly care one way or the other

if bd is around, i will use it when i need to

if it isnt, i wont. simple as that.


Backdooring:
You MAY NOT attack any building within the enemy base without creep support. You MAY attack any building in the base, but you must enter the base through the same lane your creep support is in. If no creeps are already in the enemy base, you may push with a creep wave and attack buildings so long as you are within 700 range of your team's creeps when you begin to attack buildings or enter the base. If your creep support dies after you have pushed into the base, you may continue to attack buildings until you leave the base, but if you use any spell that makes you invisible such as Wind Walk, Lothar's Edge, or Permanent Invisibility you must attack a building within 10 seconds of your creep support dying or it is considered backdoor.

....


Backdooring:
You MAY NOT attack any building within the enemy base without creep support. You MAY attack any building in the base, but you must enter the base through the same lane your creep support is in. If no creeps are already in the enemy base, you may push with a creep wave and attack buildings so long as you are within 700 range of your team's creeps when you begin to attack buildings or enter the base. If your creep support dies after you have pushed into the base, you may continue to attack buildings until you leave the base, but if you use any spell that makes you invisible such as Wind Walk, Lothar's Edge, or Permanent Invisibility you must attack a building within 10 seconds of your creep support dying or it is considered backdoor.

Your point?

Now, base backdooring has not been allowed, and will not ever be allowed... but I feel the whole fight is with "backdooring" the towers. People, it's allowed, hell, in HoN, even base backdoor is allowed, so just suck it up and, if you allow a single carry to stroll right into your base, fully farmed with 23k+ of items, even if you were winning before, you deserve to lose... because you most likely screwed around and let said carry get farmed. If 5 people can't kill 1, you lose, sooner or later. If you don't have a minimap, OR can't hear that "town under attack" messages, sucks.

But... on the last section of your post, you speak some truth. In a REAL game, if you and your team are farmed enough over the other team, you will win sooner or later. Many times, backdooring will screw you over because they have strong ultis that stunlock you and own you, but other times it may win you the game(which, if they didn't kill or defend against you, would have been won anyways)

[Atsuko]

So the moral of the story: It's legal in all cases unless specified by a league's rules.

/thread

[rpg711]

So the moral of the story: It's legal in all cases unless specified by a league's rules.

/thread
And also that people will forever be huge b1tches and find everything to whine about, and seek holes to create an illusion of not losing, even if they lost.

[OFFSPRING]

BD is the worst way to win a game, legal but gay. Requires no skill and prooves ur lack of capability to win team fights.

team fights such as the team who picks tempest and magmus firstD;::D:D.DDDDD:dd

[OFFSPRING]

LOL reaching for straws?

your argument in your original post was pretty much that backdoor is a strategy so therefor it should be allowed? i tore that argument a new ******* because maphacking is a strat. AGAIN NOT A FAIR STRAT. But its still a strat which negates your argument about backdooring "being valid due to it being a form of strategy."

The true argument for people with a brain, is whether or not backdooring is legitimate, fair, and whether it ruins the game in anyway or not.

Saying backdoor is a valid strat makes me wonder if you even played dota ever? or if your just some noob who doesnt know what hes talking about. Right now im going with number 2 because backdooring was disallowed in leagues that mattered (yea reworded) as in competitive play. Also the creator of the original game also implemented things to prevent backdooring because he saw it as a problem as well. so lol grabbing at straws, im trying to figure out what your argument is besides OMG BACKDOORING IS A STRAT LOLOLOL OMGOMGOMG
so what youre saying is, the king => tower move in chess (if you even know what chess is) and smashing the chessboard is in the same category in strategies? youre retarded

[Cathy]

hmm..... bd sucks xD

[Nobody]

To those who don't see how bd'ing ruins a game.

I just ahd a game, we got totally owned short game but slowly regained and played post 80min when their madman(fully feeded) starts rushing our racks one by one and at the end of fame calls us all effing noobs and saying that we all suck.

There is NO fun is backdooring, why would you do it? does it take skill? does it show how pro your are? is it fair?

the answer to all are NO and don't effing do it! some heroes like madman and arachna can BD with easy so a team of aoe master can do nothing to stop them if they go in alone to bd while the rest are in a team fight.

Either implement a anti-BD system or add the possibility of banning uses from your games if they BD (or ruin games in any other way like chain feeding to end game faster)


Say no to BD!

[Atsuko]

To those who don't see how bd'ing ruins a game.

I just ahd a game, we got totally owned short game but slowly regained and played post 80min when their madman(fully feeded) starts rushing our racks one by one and at the end of fame calls us all effing noobs and saying that we all suck.

There is NO fun is backdooring, why would you do it? does it take skill? does it show how pro your are? is it fair?

the answer to all are NO and don't effing do it! some heroes like madman and arachna can BD with easy so a team of aoe master can do nothing to stop them if they go in alone to bd while the rest are in a team fight.

Either implement a anti-BD system or add the possibility of banning uses from your games if they BD (or ruin games in any other way like chain feeding to end game faster)


Say no to BD!


You should have won before 80 minutes if your team had no carries.

[Flat_Head]

To those who don't see how bd'ing ruins a game.

I just ahd a game, we got totally owned short game but slowly regained and played post 80min when their madman(fully feeded) starts rushing our racks one by one and at the end of fame calls us all effing noobs and saying that we all suck.

There is NO fun is backdooring, why would you do it? does it take skill? does it show how pro your are? is it fair?

the answer to all are NO and don't effing do it! some heroes like madman and arachna can BD with easy so a team of aoe master can do nothing to stop them if they go in alone to bd while the rest are in a team fight.

Either implement a anti-BD system or add the possibility of banning uses from your games if they BD (or ruin games in any other way like chain feeding to end game faster)


Say no to BD!

looks like you're more butthurt that he called you noobs after beating you more than anything. thicken your skin up and you'll be fine.

[````____````]

If the game lasted longer than 80mins then for everyones sake it was a damn good thing that the Madman destroyed your base. Stop whining, you should learn your lesson (which is to end the game quickly instead of sucking), then you may not have to face this kind of adversary.

And yes, it does show how pro you are. It shows you are pro enough to solo a base.

[Anteros1]

You cant use a homecoming stone if you're dead...

I think the only issue is that when theres a big push going on and you're almost at the enemy base and you happen to lose a team fight, there may be a chance that you revive before they get to your base.

OR they backdoor and you instantly lose.

[mrdragon88]

yup..got bded by a madman player too.
why is it so common that he's the best bder around? hmm broken char perhaps? probably
nerf that *****

i think if it wasn't madman, he would have been much easier to stop.

[Nobody]

yup..got bded by a madman player too.
why is it so common that he's the best bder around? hmm broken char perhaps? probably
nerf that *****

i think if it wasn't madman, he would have been much easier to stop.

Madman's skill set is made perfectly for backdoor, its a sad but true...

[Comma]

If you forget to win before Backdooring becomes a viable option for the enemy team, you deserve to lose.

[Vormspire]

Protect your base. its simple its not the other teams fault for attacking an undefended base

[zhatan]

To everyone saying BD was/is legal in dota, check out the mayor tournaments and see that its banned in 99% of them. It has to go here too, with it games is a joke.

Some heroes can backdoor very fast, even in early game if you know how to play them.

But until then, feel free to BD anything you want, its in the game at the moment.

[Qwernakus]

I simply fail to see the logic behind why backdoors should be allowed.

The rule is, if you cant defend a building, it deserves to fall. I just cant see how the method of doing this changes that rule. Its such an easy tactic to counter.

[ZombieFewd]

Its not too hard to buy a scroll of teleportation and port back after using the 4 second armor buff... oh, wait, you were using it to prevent creeps from pushing a tower? Sorry about that.

[VectorM]

To those who don't see how bd'ing ruins a game.

I just ahd a game, we got totally owned short game but slowly regained and played post 80min when their madman(fully feeded) starts rushing our racks one by one and at the end of fame calls us all effing noobs and saying that we all suck.

There is NO fun is backdooring, why would you do it? does it take skill? does it show how pro your are? is it fair?

the answer to all are NO and don't effing do it! some heroes like madman and arachna can BD with easy so a team of aoe master can do nothing to stop them if they go in alone to bd while the rest are in a team fight.

Either implement a anti-BD system or add the possibility of banning uses from your games if they BD (or ruin games in any other way like chain feeding to end game faster)


Say no to BD!

Another whiner with a negative K;D ratio...

[VectorM]

damn IE keeps making me double post :mad:

[Grimace]

What backdooring problem? You mean the one where the other team played to win and you didn't buy homecoming stones/finish the game sooner?

[Brottor]

yeah nice idea make buildings invicible if there are no creeps. so basicly i have to 1-2 shoot the creeps (lategame) to make my base tower safe. 1 good farm hero (ranged) protects the base against a 5 man push. Way to go!

[netherflame]

To everyone saying BD was/is legal in dota, check out the mayor tournaments and see that its banned in 99% of them. It has to go here too, with it games is a joke.

Some heroes can backdoor very fast, even in early game if you know how to play them.

But until then, feel free to BD anything you want, its in the game at the moment.

This guy is the only one who knows whats going on. They go by the rules that you need creeps near buildings for them to be "attackable." This was a huge problem in dota and is also a problem with heroes that teleport ie Furion and Nymphora. It spewed into a larger problem of heroes running in and doing this.

[zhatan]

Scout-Madman team for BD rapefest. From lv11 and up they can eat your towers in sub 10s. If you activate rune and teleport to the tower, they move around and will be on something else in 20s.

[man_guy]

my opinion is:
have every building invincible untill any of any enemy creep is around it
something like 800-1000 square
(creep passive aura making building vulnerable for example, but not changing any of the graphics, and ofc not seeing this aura on the creeps)
-> backdooring becomes impossible, no big game changesNow you block frontdooring since the defenders should just target creeps so that their structures become invincible.

[Mister_Regem]

, we got totally owned short game but slowly regained and played post 80min

You played a match for 80 minutes and you didn't try to BD them? you are terrible

[Memphis_Doom]

BooBoo was meant to backdoor =P %dmg for tower downing.

[d3]

Hmm, is there something new about BD in patch? Cause I entered Mid way in nmy base (tower was gone) and went to the right entry tower to get it but I could not attack it until my creep wave came?

[zaThunder]

Backdooring is a strategic option that any team can take and any other team can stop. The items are in the game to prevent backdooring. Stop being a scrub!

[Tehleteness]

Backdooring is a strategic option that any team can take and any other team can stop. The items are in the game to prevent backdooring. Stop being a scrub!

+1

Btw, backdooring as a last resort usually results in your base being screwed anyways. Believe me, I've tried it.

[Nat]

I have no issues with backdooring.

[Noother]

Just recently we played a game where we had a feeder who fed a BH to the point he almost perma stunned people and killed them fast. We'd last 2 lots of raxes, but our Scout and my Madman managed to push up the mid lane, break raxes, then take out the other raxes back and forth when enemies showed up. The rest of our team held theirs off and stopped their NPCs raping our lanes. In the end we had top lane barracks + 1 tower and the shrine left, they had nothing. They also BD'd our bottom lane once they hit middle first.

It is a useful strategy depending on your classes and the enemy. We had 2 fast moving classes who could escape and kill fast, thus worked very well killing towers. BTW this was an 80minute game, very tough, especially with fed BH raping us early on most of game.

[Synchronize]

thats why homecoming stones are cheap. Goddamit carry 2-3 while you are pushing, or you are totally deserve big phat BD. Or simply get Phaste. you may see how this works efficently well at t.nail

[Typhus]

All these backdoor whines really piss me off.

The only discernible goal of playing a Heroes of Newerth game is to destroy the opposing teams shrine. Short of third party hacks and exploiting bugs anything else you can do in the game that will help you achieve the goal of destroying the shrine is and should be allowed.

If you want to play with a no Backdoor ruleset, go ahead, but as long as it is a possibility in the game there is nothing wrong about it. And if you cant beat it, use it. Sticking to any kind of "honorable" principles in a competitive videogame pretty much defeats the purpose of the game. If both teams are doing everything they can to win, this argument would never have surfaced in the first place.

If you can win by backdooring, why the hell wouldnt you do it?

And similarily if youre afraid of being backdoored, why dont you counter it with TPs?

The only answer can be: You have made up your own set of rules where backdooring isnt allowed and expect other people to follow them. aka, you are a scrub and deserve to be beaten by backdoorers as youre not doing everything you can to win.

[Octy]

backdoors aren't only for last resorts. they can be used for speeding up game as well (in cases that you dont really need backdoor but u can why not then? i would do anything allowed in the game mechanics just to win <-- this include psycological warfare e.g. trashtalking , annoying the enemies) if u say this is cheap and u fall for such cheap tricks then learn how to endure/counter or do it yourself. Dota has no bible that says we can't bd.

Cheap tricks does not equal cheating/unfair plays and usually bd is cheap only to weak minded players and not to hardcore experts ( it actually becomes a beautiful strategy once executed nicely)

[TinyPennis]

Backdoring - strategy? Cheez - dont show that u re so bad. Backdoring is restrcited on all normal leagues. Restricted on all championships.
I think here we can put
.

[Tiens]

Okay so all the people are stating here backdooring is fine... that simply means that his game is about to degrade into a level of play where any monkey with blink or stealth can win the game for the team. Guess I'll go and be a nice guy and exploit this untill a fix is in place....

Backdooring isn't a rule it's part of playing fair game and if you cba to do so I really believe you are a spineless creep with a psr obsession.

Oh well time to whoop out the good ol' backdoor strategy!

[Synchronize]

Allright before reading this im sure you clicked here for spamming moar "BUY HOMECOMING STONES" or "DEFEND UR BASE NOOB" posts.Being a bastard is only way to win ? Seriously check the screenshot you will understand it. Also whoever says BD IS LEGAL just go and fck urself cuz u cant win vs without bd arent you ? At first i was going to demand mods etc ban this ****tard. But he claims that he got multiple accounts -_-

[Megumijk]

All these backdoor whines really piss me off.

The only discernible goal of playing a Heroes of Newerth game is to destroy the opposing teams shrine. Short of third party hacks and exploiting bugs anything else you can do in the game that will help you achieve the goal of destroying the shrine is and should be allowed.

If you want to play with a no Backdoor ruleset, go ahead, but as long as it is a possibility in the game there is nothing wrong about it. And if you cant beat it, use it. Sticking to any kind of "honorable" principles in a competitive videogame pretty much defeats the purpose of the game. If both teams are doing everything they can to win, this argument would never have surfaced in the first place.

If you can win by backdooring, why the hell wouldnt you do it?

And similarily if youre afraid of being backdoored, why dont you counter it with TPs?

The only answer can be: You have made up your own set of rules where backdooring isnt allowed and expect other people to follow them. aka, you are a scrub and deserve to be beaten by backdoorers as youre not doing everything you can to win.

When I play chess I pick up my enemies pieces and throw them across the room.

Anything I can do to win, brah.

[MightyJoEs]

The only ilegal BD was teleporting right in the base with furion's teleport and without creeps ( spawning creeps not Furion's creeps)

Any other way to BD is completely legal and i never cried about it and i would never cry about a BD (except furion's BD but here it's HoN so shhhhh) CUZ IM A ****ING ADULD AND I HAVE HONOR!

[Kietharr]

1. If a game lasts long enough for people to either consider or be able to backdoor (usually requires a luxury item or two) you deserve it.

2. If you don't carry TP scrolls when pushing or have tp boots you deserve to get backdoored.

3. If you can't punish them for trying to 4v5 you then beat one hero in a rush to kill throne you deserve to lose.

4. If you cry about backdoor on the forums you will be laughed at for being a damn scrub.

[KingBane]

the only thing needed is to add the huge regen rates of buildings when creep's aren't there. this doesn't make it entirely anti backdooring just gives a little more incentive to wait for creeps. it also then makes you require more then 1 mediocre hero to backdoor. you either need a pimped out hero to backdoor or at least 2 or 3 hero's to backdoor. this then opens up holes in your defense. giving up 2-3 hero's to backdoor puts you at a disadvantage. otherwise there's no real big issue with backdooring. it is easily countered, it was banned in many league games and a few tourney's. it was controversial enough that in one of the patches dota made it pretty much impossible tob ackdoor cause rax's would nearly full heal every few seconds if creeps weren't there and a hero was attacking it.

[BigBadManiac]

I agree you should try to implement anti backdoor system asap i also think it should be an option the host is allowed to change but still for ppl like me who hate it its required asap!!!

[Megumijk]

I agree you should try to implement anti backdoor system asap i also think it should be an option the host is allowed to change but still for ppl like me who hate it its required asap!!!

Making it an optional thing wouldn't be bad.

That way, the people who're crying are placated and the elitists aren't effected [unless they like to go stomp noob only apem pubs on their alt accounts].

[Rakura]

its a tactics game and if you are playing competively all goes. ITs fine as is as it hardly ever happens.

[Real_Wolf]

Zombie, not quite rtue, those points aren't actually correct, because in LEAGUE games of Dota, there is easily a chance for a hero to backdoor, take out a tower and maybe a rax before your tp scrolls are in, then run away before any trouble. Indeed, they can even with a blink dagger and a tp scroll, backdoor, blink out when you teleport in, and then just teleport back to base. With the aid of a tower + high ground a team can still do fine 4v5 in defending a base, and whats more you can backdoor while the enemy team is not doing a big push, OR the enemy team is not yet at your tower, so they can push all the way to the tower, at which point at least their tower is down, and you teleport back so its still 5v5, or you continue and rax then tp while they only get the tower.

However, on the same note, its not raxing that wins you a game, indeed if you can't deal with megacreeps by the time they backdoor one lane, then you have already lost

[rpg711]

Its super creeps for killing single raxes. Killing all of them results in mega creeps.

Don't make it seem like league games in DotA is actually good XD open leagues are just glorified pubs with ratings, much like HoN pubs... unless you are talking about vouch/invite inhouse leagues, but you don't see backdooring there because rules prohibit it, or the level of play is high enough that backdoor isn't even an option. Games are decided by very subtle differences in pace of gameplay, I would think the norm for the deciding gank/push of who will win/lose is 20 minutes, though there are some bad teams in inhouse leagues as well. Pretty much, when you are at a certain level, playing with good enough players, backdoor isn't even considered because games end before it is possible, and the risk factor involved with it.

[Atsuko]

When I play chess I pick up my enemies pieces and throw them across the room.

Anything I can do to win, brah.

'cept that you need to kill the piece with one of yours to remove it from the board, with more rules saying how you have to do that.

Zomg. Rules that prevent you from being retarded.


To give a proper comparison, saying you can't backdoor when there clearly isn't a rule to block it is like saying your left knight isn't allowed to kill pawns, ever. It's a complaint that has no real backing.

But ya, guy above me is right. I've never seen anyone backdoor in any game above 1600, let alone 1900.



Backdooring isn't a rule it's part of playing fair game and if you cba to do so I really believe you are a spineless creep with a psr obsession.


I lol'd at "playing a fair game."

What defines a fair game? I would define it as following all preset rules within the game itself (no hacks, etc), as well as any rules set down before the game starts (banned heroes, league rules) that everyone agrees too.

By that definition, playing on a HoN pub server would only go by game set rules. Following these rules is therefor a "fair game".

You obviously define to your own personal tastes. If everyone agreed with you s2 would have already implemented a system that stops backdooring. Icefrog somewhat agrees with your side by making it slightly more difficult, but these two metagames are a bit different.

Srsly. Nothing stops you from playing in one of these "leagues" everyone speaks so highly of. No ones forcing you to play pub matches.

[archkyle]

tp back to base?

[Real_Wolf]

Its super creeps for killing single raxes. Killing all of them results in mega creeps.

Don't make it seem like league games in DotA is actually good XD open leagues are just glorified pubs with ratings, much like HoN pubs... unless you are talking about vouch/invite inhouse leagues, but you don't see backdooring there because rules prohibit it, or the level of play is high enough that backdoor isn't even an option. Games are decided by very subtle differences in pace of gameplay, I would think the norm for the deciding gank/push of who will win/lose is 20 minutes, though there are some bad teams in inhouse leagues as well. Pretty much, when you are at a certain level, playing with good enough players, backdoor isn't even considered because games end before it is possible, and the risk factor involved with it.

I'm talking about, while not necessarily inhouse leagues, skilled games with top tier players (kuroky, merlini, Puppey, etc). Some of them are noobs, and occasioanlly its more of a 4v5 cause of bad players, but in general the people in these games are skilled. Some of them are even from proper league competition games, at the top of the tables for them. Whats more, for these games its normally not decided until quite late, 40 minutes at least, unless the teams are quite badly stacked or one team far outpicks the others. Indeed, I remember one game from 6.63 with Kuroky and Pupper on one team, where they were losing, they lost a rax in mid, and then about 20 minutes after losing that rax (and maybe top too, dun remember), they won the game.

Losing the rax gives the enemy team an advantage, but thats all it is, its not instant win like alot of people assume. Backdooring is not quite the same, because of the way in which it CAN be done without any threat from the enemy team. This can happen to the point where the enemy team can not push, only defend, for fear of backdooring. While the super creeps can be dealt with, it causes a slight disadvantage which is unfavourable.

[Honne]

Guys, BD is totaly allowed.. Until anything else is put into the game..

"The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing."

[VMLM3]

A. If one team can afford to havea player backdoor and YOU can't get a push out of it, chances are you're already losing anyway.

B. BD usually happnes late-mid/late game, if the other team tries it, you're more than capable of buying homecoming stones. Ofcourse, most of the time you might find it more useful to just take advantage of the fact that the ohter team is short one player.

C. If you're in the enemy base, somebody tries a bd and you don't have homecoming.. What the hell are you doing letting him bd? XD, you already took out part of their base, just rush back and kill the bastard.

[LightRain]

Allright before reading this im sure you clicked here for spamming moar &quot;BUY HOMECOMING STONES&quot; or &quot;DEFEND UR BASE NOOB&quot; posts.Being a bastard is only way to win ? Seriously check the screenshot you will understand it. Also whoever says BD IS LEGAL just go and fck urself cuz u cant win vs without bd arent you ? At first i was going to demand mods etc ban this ****tard. But he claims that he got multiple accounts -_-you're trolling, right

[zhatan]

Guys, BD is totaly allowed.. Until anything else is put into the game..

"The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing."

You wont becomming a top player by learning this cheat that is banned in the mayor tournaments. It will most likley just screw up your game for those tournaments instead.

[Workdawg]

END THREAD....
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showpost.php?p=399341&postcount=28

[Atsuko]

You wont becomming a top player by learning this cheat that is banned in the mayor tournaments. It will most likley just screw up your game for those tournaments instead.

Can you define "Cheat?"

[TommyDanger]

backdooring is fine and doesnt need to be changed, the fact that anyone can complain about it just shows how stupid you are!

"oh can we please make it so we can only be attacked from the front, please please, i cant defend three sides at once" who ever posted is so stupid, a 3 sided map has no back door its just 3 sides to attack from,

a backdoor would suggest someone ran in from behind your fountain and killed you!

[Mister_Regem]

I dontunderstand why people want to stop this, it is a natural evolution of the gameplay.

[aif]

a hero can take out a tower and a rax before someone tps? is it a 1 minute cast time?

[TommyDanger]

I dontunderstand why people want to stop this, it is a natural evolution of the gameplay.


because NOOB HUNTERS want there kills to line up in a straight line so that they can kill without moving their hands to far

its just an excuse to make it easier for them.

if we didnt want backdoors we'd have a one lane map

[BeastmanAIDS]

Not having a lot (or even much) experience in HoN in general, let alone BD'ing, it seems like a fairly simple solution would be every tower not on the frontline slowly regens health when no one is hitting it. That would at least prevent people from doing hit and run backdoors on towers until eventually they're down, while not changing any other elements of the game.

Not that I think it's at all a problem in the first place, but that's just my thought on it.

[PhishPaste]

Not having a lot (or even much) experience in HoN in general, let alone BD'ing, it seems like a fairly simple solution would be every tower not on the frontline slowly regens health when no one is hitting it. That would at least prevent people from doing hit and run backdoors on towers until eventually they're down, while not changing any other elements of the game.

Not that I think it's at all a problem in the first place, but that's just my thought on it.

Towers USED to have regen, like 2 hps per second. The base towers have something like that. The tree in DotA has the armor ability which adds armor to towers and regens hps, but that's not in HoN.

Back dooring is good. It's fun when it's a race to see who can kill off all the stuff first, and tp back in time to save the base.

[Deluril]

Implement Referees. Problem solved. If host wants to ban BD, referee will enforce.

If host doesn't want to ban BD, then no need for referee.

[Typhy]

If they implement the large amount of regen when no enemy creeps are around it, there will be no more progressing slowly at early-mid game, instead, you would have to zerg the tower, and if all your creeps die from enemy heroes or creeps, then you wouldnt be able to outdps the regen, which kinda breaks some pushes. Backdooring is just a part of the game. Its extremely counterable, and the only big gains are the gold and the less resistance when you push your creeps forward. Just carry TPs if you really dont wanna be backdoored.

[Bobdoyle]

The only people who support BDing are people who do it

[hAm_sUp]

The only people who support BDing are people who do it

The only people that disapprove of BD are the ones butthurt about it amirite?

If IceFrog left it in DotA, then take it that he approves of the existence of such a tactic. The same can be said with S2 and HoN.

[Fav`]

Bding is one of the most exciting things to encounter in a HoN game :) it speeds the game up and makes u have to react faster

[Meta]

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BACKDOORING.

If you're too noob not to buy homecoming stones that's your fault and you should get BD'd to teach you a lesson. 135g counters it and if you're butthurt you fail. End of story.

[XxByakuyaxX1]

I said it in another thread and I'll say it again, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BACKDOORING.

If you're too noob not to buy homecoming stones that's your fault and you should get BD'd to teach you a lesson. 135g counters it and if you're butthurt you fail. End of story.

QFT
The sad thing is no noobs would ever get a homecoming stone. 135 gold is too expensive, it will delay their tier 4 item! I have seen so many times that when an outside tower is about to fall down, and I'm waiting there anxiously, all of my teammates decided to walk up there instead of sparing 135 gold to tp.
Suggestion for all the noobs, esp. who are still QQing about bd here: START BUYING HOMECOMING STONE. You never know how useful it is until you start using it. It gives you map control, let you get to your lane earlier, avoid missing creep waves, and help in gank/teamfight, and back to OP, yes it does help preventing backdoor
Have you ever wondered why boot of travel (the marcher that let you teleport, cant remember its name) recipe alone is worth 2200 gold?

[Synchronize]

Any hero good at creepskipping ( or creepbackdooring ). Good at Backdoor aswell. This game requires a stalwart anti bd mechanism. Or noobs shall conquer all pubbies

[Daggers]

I wonder if players who complain about backdooring does the same in sportsgames... "no crosses! You started off your attack on the left flank, you cant switch sides noob"


Or in RTS: "Hey lol, you fkn noob coming from two ways on the same time to my base, I was defending you attack on this side, you cant initiate on the other at the same time noooob!!!!"

[Tupimus]

Needs the anti-backdoor system from DotA. Tired of these EM pubstars and their teams of four carries.

[hAm_sUp]

Any hero good at creepskipping ( or creepbackdooring ). Good at Backdoor aswell. This game requires a stalwart anti bd mechanism. Or noobs shall conquer all pubbies

Pubs are always full of noobs. BD is there as the last resort you can use to win the game.


Needs the anti-backdoor system from DotA. Tired of these EM pubstars and their teams of four carries.

The game is balanced towards normal mode, not -EM. Quit playing -EM if you don't want to get backdoored by 4 carries a game.

[VajnKlit]

I am sick of everyones hater comments lol. This is a beta and things need to be worked out, ALSO there are noobs playing the game. Just because they are new to the game (even if they aren't) it doesnt mean you can go around ignoring things that they propose need to be fixed.

I agree with Nobody_DK and something should be done about it, it is not an urgent matter but I have experienced the same issue countless times.

(This is one thing I hate about hon, the pretentious people that think because they have a 1600+ psr they are pro... this is a beta, just please be nice :D)

[zhatan]

And why do you think even HoNleague forbids backdoor? Because its balanced and a good for the game?

[nekosan]

I wonder if players who complain about backdooring does the same in sportsgames... "no crosses! You started off your attack on the left flank, you cant switch sides noob"


Or in RTS: "Hey lol, you fkn noob coming from two ways on the same time to my base, I was defending you attack on this side, you cant initiate on the other at the same time noooob!!!!"

Bad comparison. I bet when you play soccer you go to wait at your enemys goal and then cry to the referee when he whistles offside.

[Sleeepyhead1]

no backdooring is an unspoken law
teams that use it when it is not necessary have no honor
(say in a game thats gone on for 2 hours however is understandable :P)
dont care bout stuff like honor? grow up
135g doesnt solve anything when 2+ teammates are dead (3v5 with 5 bding turns into 2 people backdooring easy)

[lilboy98]

I'm just gonna' quote myself from another thread. All you guys saying 'just get a homecoming stone' should look at this.


To combat backdooring: Homecoming Stone or Post Haste coupled with the armor buff present on buildings. Silence/disable if they blink or try to invis.

That's the problem. Backdoors cause us to run back and forth inside of our own base, and anyone smart enough won't stay on a structure for too long before they back out.

Then we can't send someone out because he has to watch all 3 areas of home base.

Yes, these ARE counters to a backdoor player, BUT you need to look at the bigger picture. Backdoor can effectively keep the enemy in their base, unable to push out, or they will lose structures very fast, and if they go back, the lanes can get pushed.

To completely stop just ONE backdoorer effectively, a majority of the team would require disables and a portal key, otherwise the backdoorer will just run out as soon as he can move. This already takes up a large portion of your fighting power as your other lanes are getting pushed and another potential backdoorer is harassing another area of your base.

[WakeTFU]

Remove glyph and make it so that only creeps can attack buildings.
Now that's interesting.

Perhaps make the towers do % dmg? Or maybe just the in base ones?
how about 7%-15% total hp as the game progresses?

If this were changed you'd have to change the targeting ai. In fact change the target ai anyways: heroes aren't EVER targeted by towers if there are creeps within range.

[Synchronize]

Pubs are always full of noobs. BD is there as the last resort you can use to win the game.

I know. Arachna scout predator is former king of Pubbies, they spam bd much. but this shouldnt be reason of backdooring.


The game is balanced towards normal mode, not -EM. Quit playing -EM if you don't want to get backdoored by 4 carries a game.

If you got paper mage at em game, dc it. trust me

[Atsuko]

I know. Arachna scout predator is former king of Pubbies, they spam bd much. but this shouldnt be reason of backdooring.


The game is balanced towards normal mode, not -EM. Quit playing -EM if you don't want to get backdoored by 4 carries a game.

If you got paper mage at em game, dc it. trust me

Only seen two backdoors (out of 400 or so games), and both were scouts pre-buff.


This is a non-issue to be honest. The 1% of games that see a backdoor don't warrant a entire rework of the game.

For the record, both scouts died horribly, one costing the team the game.

[qtrng]

That's the problem. Backdoors cause us to run back and forth inside of our own base, and anyone smart enough won't stay on a structure for too long before they back out.

Then we can't send someone out because he has to watch all 3 areas of home base.You can't spare one hero to go backdoor the other team's base?

[lilboy98]

You can't spare one hero to go backdoor the other team's base?

That depends on who you have available on your team. As stated in several posts, certain heroes are better at BD'ing than others.

If you don't have anyone that can blink/cloak out of their bases with ease... you're pretty much screwed. Unless somehow your team defeats the backdoor team in a team fight, and rush their base.

[nilochinilla]

I actually find it funny whenever i see some players whining whenever they feel they are being "backdoored" XD

the idea is fine with me. Make it legal i should say

[Goodsoup]

it is legal and a valid tactic, i would use it all the time but i much prefer int heros to agi ones

[Synchronize]

Only seen two backdoors (out of 400 or so games), and both were scouts pre-buff.


This is a non-issue to be honest. The 1% of games that see a backdoor don't warrant a entire rework of the game.

For the record, both scouts died horribly, one costing the team the game.

it depends to teams. Scout too. If you rage scout could actually bd

[ImpBloody]

backdooring is allowed in dota, why not hon?

Backdooring wasn't allowed in dota...

[ElementUser]

Backdooring wasn't allowed in dota...

Only in certain leagues.

[Workdawg]

S2 has already said that "the game speaks for itself" on this issue. They aren't stopping it, so it is allowed. This isn't Dota, S2 has a lot more power over the engine than Icefrog does in WC3. They could do ANYTHING they wanted to prevent backdooring, but they don't. It's a legit strategy. If you don't like it, go back to DotA or stop playing HON.

Other thoughts:
If you don't want people to backdoor in your game, put it in the title (though this won't necessarily stop anyone).
Every keeps saying "It's banned in leagues"... so ****in what? Unless you are playing in a league, it's not banned.

[Noother]

Out of me 200+ games, I've BD'd only I think three times. First time was when the enemy tried to BD us late game, and we of course countered them, running in behind and some teleports, thus causing them almost a genocide (scout vanish saved him), then we proceeded to run up and finish off some of their raxes. This game was 55 minutes in.

Another time, we'd lost middle raxes and the enemy was just gank squadding around, waiting for an ambush. My madman and our Night Hound decided to BD them and took out 2 sets of raxes, though our creeps were already at one set, and the other was already damaged. They came back but didn't have stealth detection or towers left to see us, and they were too cheap to buy an eye. This game was 70 minutes in.

The last time, we had a game that was at a bit of a stalemate. We had all raxes, but lost some towers, each side had good well rounded teams, and we were constantly hiding on our sides of the river to avoid genocide which might end the game. We'd just lost 3 players to a push, and they lost 2, so they didn't push too far. My Nymph then teleported myself, Arma and Torterer I think it was to the ramp to their base at top, though our creeps were already just near that ramp pushing up, so it was a semi BD, if we had waited another 20 secs, our creeps would be there. They rebought to defend, but were a bit slow, and at the same time our other 2 pushed the mid lane and we moved there and fended them all off again several times, genociding them twice. This game was at 75 minutes.

I've only really seen it used when the games go for long periods and the enemy team is seemingly too busy trying to farm kills rather then pushing. Pushing the lane normally results in gank fight, so BD is more appealing.

[Obi2k4]

Just counter it. If there's someone back dooring there's only 4 heroes to defend your push. If you can't push past their 4 heroes you deserve to lose.

[dimko]

Last time I checked homecoming stones counter someone trying to backdoor. No need to prevent it or add any anti-backdoor features.
No they dont. Imagine, magebane just teleports into woods and your team has -1 player. And if magebane is somewhat strong, it's -2.
My proposal is simple, give anti back door option on creation of the game.
Simple yet elegant.

[Workdawg]

If magebane is hiding in your woods, waiting for you to leave, it's 5v4 on a push, or leave one person in base and its 4v4. Simple. Even better... ward up the jungle, fake a push (get to mid pushing, then fall into fog quick) and go gank his face off, then push.

If your team is already down a player, that sucks to be you whether they BD or not.

S2 has said that the game doesn't prevent it for a reason. Obviously this has come up MANY times, and they haven't done anything about it yet. That is all anyone needs to know.

[eVinKaR]

When my team fail and I win, I will BD to win, if my team don't play nice I don't have to wait till my oponents get stronger than me cuz I won't farm in fear of gank cuz my team don't assist-me..
BD FTW !

[DamnedReg]

I tend to backdoor the 1st and 2nd tier towers if my team is lagging behind me a lot so they can get some extra gold and get a leg up. Usually with a jungle carry, though Ophelia is very good for this too.

Generally traits that make you good at jungling let you kill towers easily too. High hp, massive damage that is relatively easily evaded. Magebane isn't really that suited to it. He has the blink to get away from ganks, but he can't tank the tower that long and doesn't do crazy dps to buildings. Wildsoul or Maliken on the other hand...

[kosta1]

Backdooring is a valid strategy. What's next? People are gonna complain about fights that aren't in the lanes?
I just won a 4v5 game because the other team was picking flowers farming their asses off, so I backdoored, their fault they are too stupid to buy a TP stone. Don't cry because you don't want to adapt.

[Torturer]

Next step:
NOOB U KILL ME WIT 2 PPL WEN IM LOW HP!!!!11!!!1!!one!!!jesuseleven!!1!.

Thread> Low HP killing issues.

[DamnedReg]

Nah that comes after step "Don't push us yet my ult still on CD." ;)

[Torturer]

Oh, right.

[Rejusu]

I dislike backdooring. Some idiot BDing you can turn a game you're clawing back.

That said it's not against any rules per se but it's frowned upon. What it should be is an optional game option that allows you to disable it. Best of both worlds, everybody wins.

[krucifix]

Only in certain leagues.

And wasn't that to actually do with porting in to the enemies base with no creeps in the area?

Actually walking up to the tower was perfectly fine in all conditions.

PS: BD is fine in ALL conditions/scenarios.

[Redemption]

This is kind of pointless and endless isn't it?

I mean look, the guys who want towers to have regen if some one is bding is fine, but that will change the game in more ways than just one. First off why in the hell would you do that to any other tower except for the ones in the main base? I mean do you want games to last 2 hours, or better yet have the losing team not have a CHANCE, and i mean a SINGLE chance at winning? Oh look they have all our towers, we can't kill their first tower because our waves are getting owned by their winning team. Smart tweak now isn't it?

I have been playing dota for about 5 years+ now and people still get retarded on me. In a tda or in almost every SMART dota game i have played, the rules clearly stated that back dooring, as much as it is misunderstood ONLY applies to an empty base, KEY WORD, BASE! (as in the last 3 towers defending the final 2 before you get raped), and a hero TELEPORTS IN, (NOT BLINK, NOT JUMP, TELEPORT!) when non of the opposing team's creeps are there and killing stuff. Now as it stands, to my knowledge, the only person capable of pulling this off without doing much funky stuff is, Nymphora. In dota it was keeper of the forest who could tp anywhere and just be bding anything. That is when they originally came up with this rule, i believe.

Please explain how running across the whole map, breaching the enemy's base's defences using skills and avoiding the other faction and killing stuff bding?

In my opinion noobs only use that expression because at first they can't handle it happening to them so they make up their own bs rules about no bding, and it became popular in -ap -ems so it was common, thats fine, but it still doesn't make it "illigal".

O and by the way, to those people who said there are certain hero's better at bding than others, you are right to an extent however everything can be countered. Including invis heroes.... i mean you are a little slow if you think there arn't counters to that. Playing smart is a key factor, have some one defend if you are losing, don't go out and Kongor, place wards, don't fail in picking heroes and try to counter or pick at the last second so they don't have time to counter you, and for the love of god ask for help if you aren't sure about something. I"m tired of playing with ignorant people who do what they want disregarding what anyone else says and then rages knowing full well its their own fault for not asking, or listening to people willing to help them.

I realize this post makes me seem like the bad guy but obviously that wasn't my intent. I'm just pointing out that back dooring can be countered if you know how to play this game properly, and that if you don't please don't go screaming on forums about bding changes. If you don't understand how to stop them ask how to get better at this game because bding is a very advanced way of playing that noobs can't understand.

Finally i would just like to point this out, BDING IS ILLEGAL. PERIOD. i can still run up to any of your towers and own them. If you are confused by what i just said then you completely misunderstood my entire post. Stop using the term bding when a tower dies with no creeps next to it, that is not, freaking, back dooring.

[beriallin1]

The issue is pub players have different expectation than pro gamers.
Rules are there to keep the game entertaining and stopping people from abusing.
If pub players don't ever tp and BoT, then implement rules to prevent people abusing this.
If the designer wants to keep public players (assuming that is majority of players) as satisfied customers, this is what they should do.
Keep bd to the pro games.

I don't like to bd, cuz that always wins in pub. Defeats the purpose of playing.

[Redemption]

Yea, you said it. Having an option no running up to a tower and attacking is good, just like ap and em etc. People just don't use the term properly, which i hate because we get accused of bding.

[SilverStars]

I think they should just give towers reasonable regen rates. Backdooring basically works when your building is on low hp and you can run in and destroy it quickly. Which is basically indefensible against even with teleports because of the short time. If you try it on (building) high hp, then usually half-decent players tele in and pwn you. But your building has its hp reduced by quite a lot. Anyway, backdooring is only annoying when you're not there to defend, which means you're farming/pushing/whatever. Therefore you can anti-backdoor and take their base instead, which should be pretty easy because they have no heroes to defend. You can _choose_ to push or defend. If you give buildings high regen rates that means it's both harder to backdoor with a single person, saving the noobs without tps that get bd'd by a single backdoorer, allowing buildings to recover after a backdoor hit, and finally allowing you to defend your base for a while until you have no fear of it being pwned.

Personally, I have nothing against backdooring. Not that I _like_ it, it's incredibly hard to like any tactic or hero you've lost to, but I've pwned noob backdoorers equal if not more times. I'm just trying to solve this problem that seems so blindingly obvious to all of you but seems too...blinding? for me to see.

[LightRain]

I hate the whole concept of backdooring, because in the middle of a perfectly normal game, my teammates will stop and debate as to whether the enemies' rotation into bottom lane counts as backdooring. I don't care one ****ing bit about whether it can be called backdooring or not.
And when we have them on the run to bottom to save one tower and I say "finish this top tower! don't wait 30 seconds for creeps!" all my teammates say 'better to not bd.' Not because they are morally against it, but because no one wants to put up with all the whining and trashtalking when people who have some fiction as to what the point of the game is think they are being backdoored.
There's this whole stigma around it to the point where in pubs, people are expected not to do it simply to avoid the controversy, because it's easier to play the game and watch out for invisible rules as to what you can attack or not than it is to argue with someone who is anti-bd.

Original backdooring = teleporting. Most people complaining about backdooring in forums refer to farmed Magebanes killing bases at 70:00. Then in game you can't rotate bottom after a genocide without clearing two waves of creep first or they call bd. I really wish this concept had never spread so far.

[Rejusu]

It's a preference thing more than anything and sometimes it can spoil a game for people. I had a game not too long ago where our base was pretty devastated but we'd struck back and had pushed all our lanes back and were charging down middle. We could have EASILY won that game. However the scout decided to just ignore the complete lack of creeps at bottom, run in and backdoor our racks. Thus we lost to the mega creeps.

I say it definitely should NOT be mandatory BUT there should be an option to turn an anti-BDing measure on. You naysayers can ***** and moan about this but at the end of the day it's optional and no one is forcing you to play games where it's turned on or host games with it turned on.

(Just to note if anyone tries and puts forth the argument that lots of games will have it on and it'll be harder to find games with it off etc etc. This applies to every mode, there are always people who are going to want it how they like it, EM, SD, AR whatever. It's no different from that and the same solution applies, if you want it how you like it just host it yourself.)

At any rate you can go on about how you hate backdooring or you think people are idiots for caring about backdooring or how you think it's perfectly fine to backdoor and no one is going to be right because that's your personal opinion. The best way to solve conflicts of opinion is always options and that's what this should be, a simple on/off switch.

[Synchronize]

i support on/off switch. Cuz noobsters who picking scout - arachna - magebane ALWAYS attemps backdooring once they fail

[Atsuko]

i support on/off switch. Cuz noobsters who picking scout - arachna - magebane ALWAYS attemps backdooring once they fail

If they fail why don't you just kill them as they backdoor, you know, like you're supposed to?




At any rate you can go on about how you hate backdooring or you think people are idiots for caring about backdooring or how you think it's perfectly fine to backdoor and no one is going to be right because that's your personal opinion. The best way to solve conflicts of opinion is always options and that's what this should be, a simple on/off switch.

With this arguement, you could say that every strategy, every aspect of dota and hon should have an on/off switch.

This includes all neutrals, every lane, towers, raxes, the victory condition, kongor, wards, ganking, anything. Why is backdooring so special that it deserves its own rule? I've played maybe 500 hon games so far, and I've seen maybe, 5 games with backdoor attempts? With only one success?

Hell, I even saw a nymphora teleport in with two other heroes and they still got rocked. It's a desperate last-chance option that rarely works, and more often than not ends up backfiring and causing the backdooring team the game.

[LightRain]

It's a preference thing more than anything and sometimes it can spoil a game for people. I had a game not too long ago where our base was pretty devastated but we'd struck back and had pushed all our lanes back and were charging down middle. We could have EASILY won that game. However the scout decided to just ignore the complete lack of creeps at bottom, run in and backdoor our racks. Thus we lost to the mega creeps.
But you didn't win that game, because you were so behind due to them wrecking your base early game that you couldn't overcome their late-game carry effect. Why do people want the late game to stay fair?
If you suck from level 1-6 and can't lane at all, you can expect a quick concede from your team.
If your team repeatedly genocides in midgame, the other team gets to kill whatever buildings they want and farm up, hitting luxury items long before you do, killing Kongor if they feel like it.
If you can't defend against pushes and lose half your base... you want no consequences? If you can't end the game in time, what does your team's strategy even do? Why remove this one aspect of slippery slope from the game and leave all the other ones in?

I want people to get into the habit of specifying No BD in game titles. We shouldn't assume no-bd by default.

[Redemption]

Alright i see what you are saying but again, if you are farming/ pushing / whatever, and they are "bding" you, that means that say that one hero is there doing that. Hence they are down a player for defense as he is on offense. "bding" only happens when you are not pushing properly and you give your opponent time to even leave base to attack. In fact, if a losing team truly was "bding" they lost the game right there, as all you need to do is keep pushing into their base and they loose much more than they gain.

Also notice how i keep using "----" because i still am trying to enforce how what this issue is talking about is not actually back dooring.

[Rejusu]

If they fail why don't you just kill them as they backdoor, you know, like you're supposed to?

If you're pushing back something like a scout can run into a towerless lane and take a half health racks down before you can respond to it. Or two heroes can just run in and finish one off real quick. It'd be ideal if you could "just kill" backdoorers but you're just not factoring in response time. You shouldn't have to leave someone in base to defend against people attempting to backdoor either.


With this arguement, you could say that every strategy, every aspect of dota and hon should have an on/off switch.

This includes all neutrals, every lane, towers, raxes, the victory condition, kongor, wards, ganking, anything.

That's a silly point. It's a matter of scope. I don't see a gulf of opinion on whether creeps, kongor et al should be in the game/not be in the game/have an onoff switch etc. I do see this though. Also you said yourself that you don't see backdooring that often so by your own admission it's not a major strategy and wouldn't have much to any impact on game balance.

@light_rain:

It's more the fact that we had gotten hammered but were pulling it back and had a better than good chance at winning. I can safely say that if there was no backdooring we could have easily won that game. Pulling back a losing game is pretty awesome so it's quite annoying when someone just bypasses the push altogether and finishes the game in their favour. I consider backdooring extremely unsporting, again that's just my opinion.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's no right or wrong to backdooring, only opinion. Just because you think backdooring is stupid/you don't care about it/think it should/shouldn't be part of the game DOES NOT make you automatically right.

It should just be an option, let people have it the way they like it and if you don't like which way that switch is pointed then no one is forcing you to play that particular game. Right now it's too ambiguous an issue with too many differing opinions on the matter to decide whether it's right one way or wrong another. For those tired of people backdooring OR people tired of other people crying about backdooring having it as a game option would simplify and remove the issue.

[eAnGeL]

Backdooring can easily be countered by a homecoming stone. Backdooring applies to hitting the in-base towers / rax / throne towers without your creeps leading you into the base. If you can't 2v1 a carry that is backdooring, you need to get some disables.

I agree with Rejusu about it being an opinion. Yes it is banned in leagues, but people don't even UNDERSTAND what it is. You can start hitting the first tower in the lane without creeps and they yell backdoor. I've won a losing game, because the enemy carry (SA, beefed up) decided to backdoor to "finish it faster" after buying all his items, so we 5v1ed him and pushed for the win. Even his own team regretted that move.

Most people in DotA and HoN are TOO GREEDY to have a slot open for the homecoming stone / post haste , and would rather have a powerful item in that slot. Well then, too bad. It was your choice to go for the item instead of making sure that you can counter any backdoor attempts.

[SteveDave]

If you, and by you I mean "anybody" can employ this tactic then its entirly balanced since you can both utilize it. The Idea that players should behave against the mechanics of the game is pretty stupid

[LightRain]

If you're pushing back something like a scout can run into a towerless lane and take a half health racks down before you can respond to it. Or two heroes can just run in and finish one off real quick. It'd be ideal if you could "just kill" backdoorers but you're just not factoring in response time. You shouldn't have to leave someone in base to defend against people attempting to backdoor either.
I don't see why not. You ought to leave someone in lane early game to prevent free farm, is that also bad for the game?


@light_rain:
It's more the fact that we had gotten hammered but were pulling it back and had a better than good chance at winning. I can safely say that if there was no backdooring we could have easily won that game. Pulling back a losing game is pretty awesome so it's quite annoying when someone just bypasses the push altogether and finishes the game in their favour. I consider backdooring extremely unsporting, again that's just my opinion.
Here's the thing: Coming back from behind is possible, but very difficult. In some cases it will be close enough to impossible to call it impossible. It might be a better game if you have continual comeback, but you need something more than 'base buildings are immune to all but creeps.' Higher level people have longer respawn and killing a guy on a killing streak gives more gold, those are comeback mechanisms that work, but I've yet to see an anti-bd proposal that addresses the fact that if Scout is at the point where he can kill a building before anyone can respond, he could also just walk up to you and kill you in one flurry.
Put it another way, if you take out backdooring, you're fundamentally changing some gamestates such that you have a different game. A no-bd mode would be analogous to EM IF you made it with actual game code (something to make buildings stronger when creeps aren't around). This would screw up a bunch of stuff, and allow heroes who can 1 and 2 shot creep waves to singlehandedly break pushes. So it would work best as a tag in your game name, honestly - "5v5 AP 1650+ noBD" should be fine. (And specify that you mean no bding the base.)

I mean in the end, pub games are different from actual games. Less wards, less couriers are big enough to change the game. Less ganking means stronger carries earlier. I don't think bding is the one thing that makes this game devolve at the low skill level, especially since most complaints about bding are actually complaints about the concept of a fed carry. It's a total pipe dream to hope that leaving in bding will encourage people to learn how to end the game in less than an hour but I'm dreaming it.

[madeyez]

if you cannot defend the tower/building when someone is bding then you aint just good enough to even win the game.

[Rejusu]

If you, and by you I mean "anybody" can employ this tactic then its entirly balanced since you can both utilize it. The Idea that players should behave against the mechanics of the game is pretty stupid

That's your opinion, calling something stupid doesn't validate it in the slightest. In your view it's a mechanic or a tactic, in my view it's an unsporting tactic that actually goes against the push/counter push mechanic of dota. That's my opinion though. I could say that I think what you're saying is stupid but that doesn't make me right.

Also yes me and the people I normally play with COULD employ this tactic but the thing is we don't. We don't consider it sporting and would rather use a push to finish the game. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.


Put it another way, if you take out backdooring, you're fundamentally changing some gamestates such that you have a different game. A no-bd mode would be analogous to EM IF you made it with actual game code (something to make buildings stronger when creeps aren't around). This would screw up a bunch of stuff, and allow heroes who can 1 and 2 shot creep waves to singlehandedly break pushes. So it would work best as a tag in your game name, honestly - "5v5 AP 1650+ noBD" should be fine. (And specify that you mean no bding the base.)

There's plenty of ways to implement it without screwing up the core gameplay. It'd be very easy to work it so that you can stop people running into a completely empty lane and taking out buildings without changing how the rest of the game plays in the slightest. For instance after a certain time period (for arguments sake lets say 30 seconds, this value could always be tweaked to fit better though) after a battle has ended the tower pops immune until creeps are within a certain range again. By a battle I mean once both creeps and heroes have left an area.

As you've said it's very easy for a lot of heroes to just destroy a creep wave, it'd be silly if this mechanic enabled because you lost the creeps you came in with. The point is you should ENTER the base with creeps in a push, not say when the creeps are halfway down the lane. So once you've entered a base with creeps, done as much pushing as you can and then once your heroes leave that timer starts and then stops them from pushing until creeps are within a reasonable range.

Either way it's not really an implementation problem when it comes to having it as a mode.

[Slither]

if you cannot defend the tower/building when someone is bding then you aint just good enough to even win the game.

Try saying that when the games been prolonged and lets say your team is all level 20's, the other team levels 17-19; however, they have a scout with say a wingbow, hacknslash, and for fun a behemoths heart (I never play scout so I really don't know his build.) He decides to go take out a tower so that the creeps can start attacking the barracks and within seconds all you hear is Hellbourne have destroyed a tower, and when you look at the tower you see Scout vanishing and running off somewhere.

Quite frankly, there are cases were you just can't stop a backdoor.

[Paperplane1]

Actually, backdooring makes life interesting.
How many games actually do come down to a throne rush in the end?
If you want a good game, then keep playing and if someone backdoors, backdoor them back.
IT'S AWESOME :D

[Rejusu]

Actually, backdooring makes life interesting.
How many games actually do come down to a throne rush in the end?
If you want a good game, then keep playing and if someone backdoors, backdoor them back.
IT'S AWESOME :D

Again it comes down to a matter of opinion. No one is right or wrong so why not just shove it in the game options and sweep it under the rug. :)

[haschisch]

backdooring is not at all game destroying, players running around without post haste or homecoming stones are.

[kosta1]

Try saying that when the games been prolonged and lets say your team is all level 20's, the other team levels 17-19; however, they have a scout with say a wingbow, hacknslash, and for fun a behemoths heart (I never play scout so I really don't know his build.) He decides to go take out a tower so that the creeps can start attacking the barracks and within seconds all you hear is Hellbourne have destroyed a tower, and when you look at the tower you see Scout vanishing and running off somewhere.

Quite frankly, there are cases were you just can't stop a backdoor.
Wards and a brain. There you go. Always expect a BD and be ready to respond. If you aren't prepared don't complain.
And if he was that farmed and you weren't, well, he just ended it quickly.

[Rejusu]

Wards and a brain. There you go. Always expect a BD and be ready to respond. If you aren't prepared don't complain.
And if he was that farmed and you weren't, well, he just ended it quickly.

Thing is not all of us want to anticipate the other team may do something we consider unsportsmanlike. Also a scout can do a lot of damage before you can even respond to it, he can just run in invisible flurry a building and by the time you've noticed this (say a couple of seconds response time) and teleported back (I think the teleport cast is about 3 seconds) he can be invisible and out of your base and you're just left standing there.

At any rate I've said this before and I'll say it again calling other people stupid does not validate your opinion. It just makes you look like an idiot. Your opinion is not fact, deal with it, validate your argument with actual points rather than insults or get out. I'm tired of people thinking that "get a brain" and "learn to play" are valid arguments, using them like that just makes you look like an arrogant fool.

[kosta1]

Thing is not all of us want to anticipate the other team may do something we consider unsportsmanlike.
Unsportsmanlike or not, it's in the game and you choose whether you will do it or not. If it's allowed by the game mechanics then it's ok to do it as long it's not an exploit. If you decide not to BD don't expect everyone else to do the same. Game rules enforced by game mechanics > imaginary rules.

About facts, if scout can take down a tower and barrack before you can TP then he is probably fed for too long or the game lasted too long. Once games pass the hour mark and heroes get lots of luxury items **** really gets crazy and tower/other buildings become like paper, not to mention ballance goes right through the window. There's no way around that, you just use it to your advantage or not.

Games shouldn't even last that long, but if they do, the beautiful snowball effect of HoN and DotA is there to make sure that even if you are equal with your opponents now the mistakes you made early-mid the game haunt you in the endgame. It's just the way it is, unless S2 decides to put a stop to BD themselves it's there to stay. In my opinion the threat of a BD actually adds more to the game and makes play with more awareness.

[Rejusu]

Unsportsmanlike or not, it's in the game and you choose whether you will do it or not. If it's allowed by the game mechanics then it's ok to do it as long it's not an exploit. If you decide not to BD don't expect everyone else to do the same. Game rules enforced by game mechanics > imaginary rules.

Again that's just your opinion. Just because it's not enforced by the game itself doesn't automatically invalidate it. Leagues have their own rules that aren't enforced in game but are just as important as those hard coded in. Just because you don't subscribe to them doesn't mean everyone else automatically shouldn't.

Also I'd like to point out again that can is not the same as should.

The big picture here is that some would like it enforced as a mechanic and others don't. There's enough points on either side of the argument to make it a pretty indecisive issue. Hence my suggestion that it should just be a toggle, on for those against backdooring, off for those who think it's fine the way it is. Just like if you want to play AP or AR.


About facts, if scout can take down a tower and barrack before you can TP then he is probably fed for too long or the game lasted too long. Once games pass the hour mark and heroes get lots of luxury items **** really gets crazy and tower/other buildings become like paper, not to mention ballance goes right through the window. There's no way around that, you just use it to your advantage or not.

He doesn't necessarily have to be farmed up to the point where he can take down something in one rush. Say a lane is missing a tower but the racks are still up. Scout runs in while you're pushing middle or something, maybe with a friend maybe without. Even a not fully farmed scout can take a decent chunk of HP off a racks and back out before you can kill him. All he has to do is repeat it a couple of times and you've either got a dead racks or one that's been whittled down to the point that a small push can finish it.

Sometimes it's not just someone "ending the game quicker" but just using cheap tactics to wear down a weakened lane without actually pushing it. Even if the rest of your base is intact and you're having a pretty balanced game, little things like that can tip it. Again whether it's cheap/unsporting whatever is down to personal opinion and there's no right or wrong answer.


So it would work best as a tag in your game name, honestly - "5v5 AP 1650+ noBD" should be fine. (And specify that you mean no bding the base.)

I forgot to mention it before but the problem with that is there's simply no way to enforce it. You can say it's the rule but that doesn't stop anyone from breaking it. There's no retribution or penalty like there would be in a league or clan match. Banning them is fairly useless as yes you won't play with that particular rulebreaker again but it's not like there won't be a dozen more out there prepared to do it. You can't even vote kick them as it's highly unlikely their team will want to lose a player.

At any rate I want to move the topic away from whether people think backdooring is right/wrong, counterable/not counterable etc it's pretty clear no two people are going to agree on it. I haven't seen any real argument as to why it shouldn't simply be a game option though, if anyone wants to present one I'd love to hear it.

[DasFury]

Why do people complain about scout in this.....scout is easy to counter when he tries to backdoor...its magebane who is the ultimate PITA when it comes to Bdoor.

[whiteskull86]

So basicly if BD is unsportmans like then football team a that shuts down team b's running game so team b decides to pass to try and win team a calls foul.


Thats basicly what you guys are saying.

If they cant beat us in team fights they should auto lose no way in hell should they be allowed to try and win another way!!!!


grow up.

[Rejusu]

So basicly if BD is unsportmans like then football team a that shuts down team b's running game so team b decides to pass to try and win team a calls foul.

1) That's some horrendous sentence structure. I can't even tell what you're trying to say there other than it's some kind of American football analogy (which is lost on anyone who isn't American and doesn't follow American football). If you want to make a valid point try and make it readable at least.


Thats basicly what you guys are saying.

If they cant beat us in team fights they should auto lose no way in hell should they be allowed to try and win another way!!!!

2) No it's not what we're saying. That's a pretty skewed analysis of the anti-backdooring arguments, go back and read them more carefully.


grow up.

3) Take your own advice.

[Dupster]

Seriously if its an issue, counter it...that is all. ward some paths carry a recall item do something dont get cut cause of your inexperience.

[Volcarr]

Seriously if its an issue, counter it...that is all. ward some paths carry a recall item do something dont get cut cause of your inexperience.

sorry but you really cant expect that when the majority of pubs dont even know what items to get on their characters let alone to carry a damn tp.

the funny part is BDing is not allowed in competitive dota but kinda is allowed in pubs when it is pros who should know better and scrubs that need the protection...

[Absolutely]

Cant this just be an advanced game option and leave it at that?

[luge]

Some people forget that the game was designed with backdooring being a way to win in mind.

I've personally never been in a game where someone on the other team BD'ed one of our towers and thought any less of them, to me its simply part of the game.

[Stormnight]

1) That's some horrendous sentence structure. I can't even tell what you're trying to say there other than it's some kind of American football analogy (which is lost on anyone who isn't American and doesn't follow American football). If you want to make a valid point try and make it readable at least.


Maybe his native language isnt english, like mine? You should try to write his native language like he writes english...

Flame a non native english speaker isnt fair.

I think he meant -soccer-, not your "american football".

[LegoPirate]

sorry but you really cant expect that when the majority of pubs dont even know what items to get on their characters let alone to carry a damn tp.

the funny part is BDing is not allowed in competitive dota but kinda is allowed in pubs when it is pros who should know better and scrubs that need the protection...

bding isnt allowed in comp hon because an entire team of 5 bding you will happen in a comp game, as apposed to a single carry in a pub game

bd in comp is completely different then bd in pubs.

not to mention that the rules vary tourney to tourney

I don't like to bd, cuz that always wins in pub. Defeats the purpose of playing.

Prove this. Win a bunch of pub games by abusing the unbeatable back door strategy that you have. Post the match IDs and then S2 can give us the replays. If its really imbalanced then the point of the beta is to show that its imbalanced so that it can be fixed. As of now, Ive seen very little evidence that it is as game breaking as many people think.

[Retic1]

Kudos to the dude who posted the sirlin.net article.

Really...if I lost due to a BD, that's because the team and I didn't take precautions to prevent it. Our fault. If we win via BD because the opponents don't know how to counter it, not our problem. If they counter it, then all's fair.

THis is just like playing SF4 and my opponents scream of "imbaness/cheapness" if I throw them around as Bison (dictator); the scrub in question obviously doesn't know that sitting around and doing nothing is just asking for a throw. Same in HoN/Dota; refusing to carry a single TP is basically advertising "Please gank me"....or "Please BD our towers! Thanks!".

I won't mind an "no Backdoor" rule as an advanced option...but really, BD is part of the game. It's not as if somebody started out with a Symbol of rage at the start of the game and owned everybody senseless...or worse, exploits a "handcuffs" glitch (think Guile handcuffs in SF2 and Spiderman/Venom handcuffs in Marvel Vs Capcom 1) and crushes their base. Now THAT's UNFAIR.