Moon Queen... again?

[RenoFox]

After doing a search I haven't found confirmed information so I was hoping to get a straight answer =]

1~ How is damage calculated per bounce. Is it based off the 1st bounce -35% per bounce. Or is it based off each individual targets armour?

2~ Does shield breaker work on all bounces? If not does this mean that only the 1st target effected and there is no carry effect (meaning because the 1st target takes more damage do the following targets take more damage too)?

3~ How do Crits, Mini-stuns and Stuns work with the bounces?

4~ Does the active component of symbol of rage effect each bounce?

Cheers, RenoFox.

[Eccentrikit]

1) -35% per bounce + individual targets armour

2) No

3) First target only

4) First target only

I may be wrong, need a pro in here

[LegoPirate]

crits work on all targets, just sets the first hit to the crit value and then loses damage at the same 35% per hit

otherwise im perty sure thats all correct.

[JoBoDo]

but ive played dota for a while, and she seems to have not changed atall.. in which case everything said here is correct.

[willtsay]

does it calculate individual armor o-O? cleave doesnt, but then again thats cleave XP

[hackman5000]

Here's a list of what I found when I tried out orbs with Moon Queen. It was relevant to another thread so it has some extra stuff in there. I had a more detailed post somewhere but I can't find it now. I originally said that crit did not bounce. It may set the first hit to the crit damage and reduce 35% each bounce accordingly, but from what I saw, the bounce damage was extremely weak for what a crit -35% should have been. I'd have to double check.

Summary: Shieldbreaker and Lifesteal do not proc on each bounce, all other orbs and attack mods can


Nearly every orb effect, and also Brutalizer bash and Savage Mace proc can activate on every bounce. When I tested it, Brutalizer could bash multiple enemies even though the first bash put it on cooldown, but that has been recently fixed/changed. Shieldbreaker and life leech items do not activate on each bounce, but I believe all other orbs do. Illusions in this game can also proc orb effects, proc passives (such as Kraken's Splash passive), and the splash from Runed Axe. According to a friend of mine, Illusion runes allow passive "countdown" procs like Puppet Master's to count down normally and proc or each illusion, whereas Geomancer's Bane illusions do not (haven't tried this personally).

I ran around in a solo game for about 15-20 minutes per orb item to try and get a double proc on most of them. Savage Mace works nicely, but Charged Hammer, Hack and Slash, and Brutalizer didn't really live up to my expectations. Getting a proc on a bounce hit was rare, and getting a double proc was usually when I switched to a new orb to try. There was another post awhile back on this and I posted the full list and my findings, minus Frostwolf Skull and Nullfire Blade, as the poster claimed both of them worked on every bounce of Moon Queen's attack. Charged hammer proc'ing on a bounce hit shoots the lightning from your model to the creep it proc'ed from. If the creeps are too close together it may be hard to tell what caused the proc. There may also be some sort of diminishing returns on bounce procs, because getting double proc's or procs on the bounces seemed much harder than it should have been.

Hope that clears things up a bit.

As for your questions:

1) -35% + individual armor seems right. I'm not sure if it subtracts the 35% from the damage dealt to the previous target, or if it uses the unmodified damage and deals 35% less each time and factors armor in afterwards. Can probably test this by stacking Armor on Pebbles/Hamerstorm (since they have passive +armor) and seeing what kind of damage the bounces after them do.

2) Though shieldbreaker doesn't reduce the armor of all bounce targets, your other part of the quest is if the first target taking more damage (from having less armor) will cause the bounces to do more damage. If crit does in fact bounce like that, I can only assume this works the same way.

3) Attack mods (minus shieldbreaker and lifesteal) can proc on any bounce or first target. They can also proc more than once in a single attack (ie: charged hammer procs off two different bounces).

4) If you mean the +damage, I would say yes, if you mean the leech, I would say no. I assume it works like normal leech items, which only works on the first hit as far as I could tell while testing.

[RenoFox]

Here's a list of what I found when I tried out orbs with Moon Queen. It was relevant to another thread so it has some extra stuff in there. I had a more detailed post somewhere but I can't find it now. I originally said that crit did not bounce. It may set the first hit to the crit damage and reduce 35% each bounce accordingly, but from what I saw, the bounce damage was extremely weak for what a crit -35% should have been. I'd have to double check.

Summary: Shieldbreaker and Lifesteal do not proc on each bounce, all other orbs and attack mods can



As for your questions:

1) -35% + individual armor seems right. I'm not sure if it subtracts the 35% from the damage dealt to the previous target, or if it uses the unmodified damage and deals 35% less each time and factors armor in afterwards. Can probably test this by stacking Armor on Pebbles/Hamerstorm (since they have passive +armor) and seeing what kind of damage the bounces after them do.

2) Though shieldbreaker doesn't reduce the armor of all bounce targets, your other part of the quest is if the first target taking more damage (from having less armor) will cause the bounces to do more damage. If crit does in fact bounce like that, I can only assume this works the same way.

3) Attack mods (minus shieldbreaker and lifesteal) can proc on any bounce or first target. They can also proc more than once in a single attack (ie: charged hammer procs off two different bounces).

4) If you mean the +damage, I would say yes, if you mean the leech, I would say no. I assume it works like normal leech items, which only works on the first hit as far as I could tell while testing.

Nice post, when did you do this test, because there were changes done to the bounces some patches ago.

I know for a fact that Thunderclaw does not proc off the bounces, tried this a lot. And Mana drain does not work per bounce.

Symbol of Rage's active skill is +150% life drain for 3sec, there's no damage Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Asking about the active specifically because it worked back on DotA... or it was a few versions back.

[hackman5000]

Nice post, when did you do this test, because there were changes done to the bounces some patches ago.

I know for a fact that Thunderclaw does not proc off the bounces, tried this a lot. And Mana drain does not work per bounce.

Symbol of Rage's active skill is +150% life drain for 3sec, there's no damage Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Asking about the active specifically because it worked back on DotA... or it was a few versions back.


There was a patch with a specific note in it about "Brutalizer will no longer proc while on cooldown". I tested this about a week before that patch I believe. If they changed the bounces, that is quite disappointing. It was rare, but I had Brutalizer proc on my initial hit and a bounce, even while it was on cooldown. I remember seeing that patch note later on and thinking "oh, that's why it could double proc". Savage Mace would very consistently multi-proc, so making a game and grabbing one could pretty quickly tell you if they changed the way the bounces work.

As for the mana burn, I didn't test this one myself. In the post that made me want to test these orbs out, the poster said he had tried Frostwolf Skull and Nullfire Blade and both worked (on every hit/bounce). I kept that in mind and went and tried all the other attack mods, but not the two he said he had already confirmed. In the case of the thunderclaw, it took me a good 20 minutes to see a proc on a bounced hit, which is why I said that maybe there was some kind of diminishing returns on bounces, because it was definitely not 20% on a bounce hit.

For the Symbol of Rage, I forgot that it has been changed. In DotA, it used to add +damage and an additional 15% leech when activated on top of the 25% leech it already had. Then they changed it to the 150% leech and took off the damage. I'm not totally sure on this, but the mechanic that added the extra leech I think was based off of the potion of life stealing (to allow it to stack with other forms of leech), and allowed Luna's bounces to leech. Like I said, I am not totally sure on that one, I wasn't a big Luna player.

So anyways, if they have removed these bounce procs, I'm sorry, I've been spreading incorrect information. I thought it was nice for opening up some orb options on Moon Queen, though I'm sure someone would be pissed if you Hack n Slash slowed them from 1500 away through bounces. If I have time, I'll retry these and see if I can reproduce anything.

[noi_nai_tan]

For the Symbol of Rage, I forgot that it has been changed. In DotA, it used to add +damage and an additional 15% leech when activated on top of the 25% leech it already had. Then they changed it to the 150% leech and took off the damage. I'm not totally sure on this, but the mechanic that added the extra leech I think was based off of the potion of life stealing (to allow it to stack with other forms of leech), and allowed Luna's bounces to leech. Like I said, I am not totally sure on that one, I wasn't a big Luna player.


You're correct, it was initially based on the Vampiric potion, which allowed leech from any damage (including spells!).

[RenoFox]

Tested Skadi: Does not work on every bounce, only slows the 1st target =(

Stay tuned more tests to come =D

[RenoFox]

Just tested Flayer/Riftshards(crit) There's no carry on effect. This means that it can only crit on the 1st target, and the following bounces do not get hit for more as if they were crit -35%.

It's a sad day for Moon Queen... Just need to test Mini-stun and Shield breaker now ohh and SoR xD

[hackman5000]

The Savage Mace ministun was probably the best choice, since it was very consistent. If you kill creeps for like only 1 min and see no procs on the bounces, they nerfed Moon Queen pretty hard it seems. I don't recall even seeing this in any patch notes, searching the patch note page for "moon queen" doesn't even get any hits.

[Habile]

Seems they've made a stealth change. Manaburn, Frost, Maim, Bash, and Chain Lightning don't seem to work on any of the bounces. Those are the only ones I've tested recently.

[n00binator1]

All attack effects work only on the first target.

The damage is reduced by 35% of the previous damage value(armor applies like with normal attacks), i.e. with 100 damage, you'll deal:
100
65
42.25
27.4625
17.850625
Not sure how much HoN rounds the values.

[hackman5000]

Seems they've made a stealth change. Manaburn, Frost, Maim, Bash, and Chain Lightning don't seem to work on any of the bounces. Those are the only ones I've tested recently.

Here is the original thread in which I tested these orbs. http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=4874

But yes, stealth change indeed. I find it odd that they would not put that in the patch notes. I mean honestly there are much more gamebreaking bugs that they are glad to announce they have fixed, even in the case of Pebbles Chuck and Valk's Call hitting invis, which claim to be fixed multiple times and are not. I don't see why they would have left this out, like a "Oh crap this in still in? Quick, fix it before anyone notices and feign ignorance" moment.