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View Full Version : HoN vs DotA: 3 IMP's



F8
08-28-2009, 12:33 AM
I create this post to prove something to the community here. To start off, this isn't about just a single mechanic, or how parts of the game works. It's a comparison between the mechanics of DotA and HoN, and how some things advertised by HoN aren't really true.

Let's start with the 3 IMP's:

IMPractical - Would be unwise to do so
IMProbable - Would lagg or be unstable
IMPossible - Would not work whatsoever

Impractical
This covers something like trying to figure out where someone was 3 seconds ago. I know that Weaver had a skill that moved him back about 5 seconds, but that was done in 1-second intervals, saving all the information and storing it in a 5-indexed variable array. It wouldn't lagg in DotA because it would do it once per second, and you'd hardly feel it at all. Besides, a ton of triggers fire every second and no one notices because they have such a small amount of code in them that the player doesn't notice it.

So far, almost all the skills in HoN have fixed the impractibility of going further with some DotA skills. For example, bottle now heals at a constant rate instead of ticking 3 times, once per second. To make it constant in DotA, firing off every 0.01 seconds, would lagg like hell if too many people used it at the same time.

Improbable
This covers something like trying to select someone at a non-circular, non-conar, and non-rectangular area in the game and do an action to them. For example, take a look at the following picture:

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/3057/89006868.jpg
(The player is the red dot. The area the spell affects is the yellow.)
To find all the units in the yellow area and do an action on them in DotA, it would not only lagg like hell when trying to select them, but it would also require extremely advanced math and a really painful enumming function to do so. In this case, it's extremely unlikely that any form of spell like this would ever be created. However, it is a possibility in HoN with its advanced systems.

Impossible
This is something that I think much of the forum is confused about. So far, the only skill I've seen in HoN that is not actually possible using the Warcraft 3 Engine is Dark Lady's CHARGING BLADES. Her ultimate is not impossible with the Warcraft 3 engine. The only thing necessary to do with it would be to create an artifical, invisible sight unit that stays on top of the heroes at all times and then to remove/replace it when the spell gets casted. Alongside that, you would just stop allied vision between everyone on the team for the duration.

The reason that Charging Blades is not possible in the Warcraft 3 engine is the fact that it is a terrain-noticing blink. In HoN, you cannot jump over a cliff using Charging Blades. It will go around corners and through narrow passages for sure, but it will never go over terrain. In Warcraft 3, this is impossible. You cannot apply a pathing system to a nearly-instant-moving unit. It might be possible, but it seems to me that, from my experience with JASS, this would be completely impossible to make. Every other skill I've seen in HoN is, in my opinion, possible to create in Warcraft 3.

I guess this post is just here to say that I've noticed most of you think that HoN is totally unique to Warcraft 3. However, so far there's very little that strays from the engines limits. If you think there are other spells in HoN that cannot be created in WC3, post here. I will tell you exactly how it can be done and even create a sample map if I must.

I guess this might also be used to theory craft some good spell ideas for other heroes, considering I'm sure that people want something that's not possible in DotA to be created in HoN.

jack
08-28-2009, 12:41 AM
I know that Puppetmasters spells can be done in WarCraft to some extent but how well?

contrast
08-28-2009, 01:03 AM
For the charging blades argument couldn't you instead increase her movement speed to a ridiculously fast speed (like 1000) instead of basing it off blink?

F8
08-28-2009, 01:06 AM
For the charging blades argument couldn't you instead increase her movement speed to a ridiculously fast speed (like 1000) instead of basing it off blink?
Max movement speed is 522. That's not nearly fast enough.

Puppet Master's spells can all be done in DotA, without much difficulty either. I mean, Storm Spirit pretty much had Puppet Master's passive before, anyways.

contrast
08-28-2009, 01:07 AM
Max movement speed is 522. That's not nearly fast enough.

Puppet Master's spells can all be done in DotA, without much difficulty either. I mean, Storm Spirit pretty much had Puppet Master's passive before, anyways.

I know max movement speed is 522 but is that hard coded into the war3engine or is it just a benchmark used for Dota?

krucifix
08-28-2009, 01:21 AM
How about puppetmasters hold? With the "slowly move forward but sling back" action?

Also, Kraken's charge also obey's objects, same way as Charging Strikes.

And, obviously only the new heroes would have abilities that are unique to HoN, and what, there's maybe 5 new heroes?

contrast
08-28-2009, 01:28 AM
How about puppetmasters hold? With the "slowly move forward but sling back" action?

I guess you could have a similar mechanic like Dark seers vortex.

F8
08-28-2009, 01:35 AM
I know max movement speed is 522 but is that hard coded into the war3engine or is it just a benchmark used for Dota?
It's hard coded into Warcraft 3. You can't go above it without using 3rd party software... and even that's unstable and will likely crash the game.


How about puppetmasters hold? With the "slowly move forward but sling back" action?

Also, Kraken's charge also obey's objects, same way as Charging Strikes.

And, obviously only the new heroes would have abilities that are unique to HoN, and what, there's maybe 5 new heroes?
Puppetmaster's hold can be done the same way Black Hole is done, but in reverse. When at a certain distance from the unit, they'll get pulled in faster. When at the center, they wont move.

Kraken's Charge is something I forgot to mention, but it works the same way as Charging Strikes. Therefore it's impossible for DotA, but seen before in HoN.

The thing about the 5 new heroes with unique abilities is the fact that they can all be done in WC3. Give me some examples.

Drasha
08-28-2009, 01:40 AM
Zephyer has the charge so that could not be done in dota don't know if dota could do his cyclones.

contrast
08-28-2009, 02:00 AM
Zephyer has the charge so that could not be done in dota don't know if dota could do his cyclones.

His charge isnt terrain guided though so it can be done.

His cyclones could be done since it's only a really small damage aura (unless the actual cyclone graphic does the damage).

Sai
08-28-2009, 02:08 AM
The Cyclone graphic does the damage.

NinjaPants
08-28-2009, 02:11 AM
Dark Lady's charge can be done in Wc3.
First thing that comes to mind is using instant unit move and checking for collisions and cliffs each move.
Cliffs can be detected through a collection of zones on the main map.
It's a lot of effort, but it can be done. Don't know about how efficient it would be.
(Though I imagine if you invested enough time to it; but i still think this is improbable and not impossible)

Edit: The cyclone can be easily done with spawning new units that have flight-pathing and a small immolation thing.

PoopyDesires
08-28-2009, 02:41 AM
Dark Lady's charge is possible in WCIII.

All the HoN spells are.

New spells plox.

F8
08-28-2009, 04:46 AM
Dark Lady's charge is possible in WCIII.

All the HoN spells are.

New spells plox.
Dark Lady's charge is not possible in WC3. Same goes for Kraken's movement skill. If you still think it's possible, I want to see a demo map ASAP.

And yes, I agree... we need new spells that aren't possible with the WC3 engine.

Maxter1
08-28-2009, 05:36 AM
Is it possible to have an ability that chooses it's target depending on Hero stat?

for example:
Armor Piercing Rocket
Hits the target with the highest Armor in 1500 range
or Speed seeking rocket
Hits the target with highest movement speed in 1500 range, things like this?

In my opinion skills like these can add a lot of possibilities.

krucifix
08-28-2009, 05:39 AM
Puppetmaster's hold can be done the same way Black Hole is done, but in reverse. When at a certain distance from the unit, they'll get pulled in faster. When at the center, they wont move.


I still don't see how Puppetmasters Hold is doable.

The hold not only restricts an enemies movement when they move, but it then "flings" them right back to the centre. Is this variation in movement and speed possible?



The thing about the 5 new heroes with unique abilities is the fact that they can all be done in WC3. Give me some examples.

Well, I wasn't implying the new chars actually have new abilities, I meant there's only 5 new heroes. 1 unique ability out of these new heroes, is a fairly poor ratio, but at least we know the engine they've made is capable of something new. :)

Trysaeder
08-28-2009, 05:48 AM
Dark Lady's charge is not possible in WC3. Same goes for Kraken's movement skill. If you still think it's possible, I want to see a demo map ASAP.

Waveform. Set it to check every 0.1 seconds if hero is on impassable terrain. Then move it forward in the facing angle instead of through.


To find all the units in the yellow area and do an action on them in DotA, it would not only lagg like hell when trying to select them, but it would also require extremely advanced math and a really painful enumming function to do so. In this case, it's extremely unlikely that any form of spell like this would ever be created. However, it is a possibility in HoN with its advanced systems.

Make multiple smaller aoe check circles/rectangles as regions, then set that as an aoe. For every unit in group/do action is easy and does not lag at all. Naga's sleep, Kunkka's gush, anything with a single target effect that affects an aoe. Fissure's stun is a storm bolt.

Other ****:
Impossible: Orb stacking, cooldown modification, movement cap, meh.

There really is no need for a list like this. It doesn't serve any informative purpose at all other than bragging.

Stergeary
08-28-2009, 06:40 AM
The Warcraft III map Elimination Tournament had terrain checking. Bullets fired from below collide intuitively with obstacles like ledges from above, and grenades thrown on inclines would intuitively bounce back at you. I never checked the code for how they managed that, it might have been with a gigantic number of regions set to provide information on the elevation, which would be impractical in DotA given all the variation in terrain.

Osiris
08-28-2009, 07:53 AM
Abilities that are absolutely impossible in WC3 are:



Nymphora's 'Grace of the Nymph' (no manacost buffs are not possible in WC3)
Zephyr's 'Windshield' (retargeting of projectiles doesn't work in WC3 - only for triggered pseudo missiles)
Dark Lady's 'Charging Strikes' (you can't apply normal attacks with triggers in WC3 and I'm not sure if there is a not-too-messy workaround for pathing-dependent pseudo blinks, but I think I might know a way)


Pupper Masters hold can easily be done with WC3 and I might even be able to do a demo map with Dark Lady's chages, even though with fixed damage and not normal attacks.

You can do many many things with the K2 engine that WC3 wasn't capable of - especially buff, aura and attack modifier-wise. Unfortunatly S2 is focussing on DotA heroes atm, so we haven't seen many of the new features yet.

Anyway, it's good to see some fellow JASS veterans around here.

krucifix
08-28-2009, 08:02 AM
So Orb stacking IS impossible in war3?

Osiris
08-28-2009, 08:08 AM
So Orb stacking IS impossible in war3?

In a certain way. You could give any unit a dummy 'buff placer' and use it to detect normal attacks this way. Then you would have to trigger any other 'orb effect' based on this buff placer, but even there might be problems.

Trysaeder
08-28-2009, 08:26 AM
Yes. There is a certain extent to which they will work, but never more than what it is now.

Dark lady's dash attack can be done by forcing her to attack a dummy at the start for both the animation and damage. She could be given 100% cleave, but this could be messy.

Osiris
08-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Ok, my way for simulating Charging Strike on WC3 isn't working out that well. Unfortunatly the turn rate of units is hardcoded and way to slow :/

If anyone is interested in my workaround, feel free to ask me, though.

F8
08-28-2009, 11:12 AM
Ok, my way for simulating Charging Strike on WC3 isn't working out that well. Unfortunatly the turn rate of units is hardcoded and way to slow :/

If anyone is interested in my workaround, feel free to ask me, though.
Told you it was impossible. :D

Besides simply creating the pseudo-blink, the targetting also has to be correct. You can't target on the other side of a cliff and go there. You have to actually be close enough on pathable terrain to perform the skill.

Banished
08-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Something I have always wanted to see were debuffs that reduced spell cost for X time, increased spell cost for X time, increased casting animation (+ or - casting speed) etc. These values were always uneditable in Wc3 unless you made a new modified skill for each instance of a spell for each level of the debuff, which, while being possible, is completely inefficient and will not be implemented into a map like Dota where you are talking 300+ skills that need edited per level per instance of similar debuffs. And even then, you couldn't edit the casting time of the hero.

Another one would be the reflection of missle based spells. (Lina's line nuke, Valkyrie's Spear, Phantom Lancers Lance, Pebble's stun, etc. Any spell that has some sort of travel time animation could be a candidate for reflect able spells.

Just throwing an idea out there.