Shockwave VS Echo Slam

[Maxter1]

Is it intentional that Shockwave doesn't release echo's to seek targets beyond the initial radius?

It extended the damage of Echo Slam quite far, allowing each creep that's hit to create an "echo" which travels an extra 500 range.

These "echo" I talk about is the 35/45/65 per creep thingy.

I will show screenshots of my point, after this class :D

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6289/echoslamdistancecheck.png
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/360/echodistance.png
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1391/difference.png
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/4338/echoslamdamn.png




I'll add more details, these details below are not mine.




Mechanics:
- The initial wave actually deals 165/230/285 damage but each unit is hit by its own echo wave, so it evens out to 200/275/350 damage to a single unit like the spell says. So if you use it at level one with only one enemy unit nearby, it will deal 200 damage. If there are two units, it will deal 235 damage to each of them. If there are three, it will deal 270 to each, and so on.
- Although it does not affect them, Echo Slam bounces off of invisible units, magic-immune units, corpses, and units that are in the process of dying. The fact that it works with corpses is extremely helpful for using Echo Slam with Refresher Orb because you can effectively get the full damage twice even if almost everything died during the first cast.
- The AoE of slam’s initial/actual wave is only 500. The AoE of each echo wave is also 500. So, potentially the spell can damage a unit which is 1000 range away from raigor, but the unit can get hit only by an echo wave. Here’s a pictorial explanation. Open the picture in a new tab/window for better read.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o8EZPJHZvBw/SWD3E1D5WsI/AAAAAAAAADc/Z-fwWGKZKI8/s400/echo+slam+copy.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o8EZPJHZvBw/SWD3E1D5WsI/AAAAAAAAADc/Z-fwWGKZKI8/s1600-h/echo+slam+copy.jpg)



1. Red dot – Earthshaker himself. Forms the centre of the spell.
2. Brown dots – Units inside 280 AoE. Receive damage from initial wave, aftershock (3rd skill of Earthshaker) and echo waves within 500 AoE. These units will constitute for more echo waves.
3. Blue dots – Units inside 500 AoE. Receive damage from initial wave and echo waves within 500 AoE but not from aftershock. These units also constitute for more echo waves.
4. Green dots – Units inside 1000 AoE. Receive damage from only echo waves within 500 AoE. These do not constitute for more echo waves.
5. Pink units – Units outside 1000 AoE. These units do not receive any damage.
So it must be clear to you by now that (generally) units inside 280 AoE of echo slam receive maximum damage.


Other points of note:
- The area of effect is calculated right when Echo Slam is cast so if a hero runs out of the AoE after Raigor casts it, the waves will follow the hero out of the area. The same thing also happens with Echo Slam's echo damage.
- Does not damage decrepified units.
- Not blocked by linken’s sphere.
- Deals magical damage which is reduced by spell resistance.
- The initial wave (165/230/285) damages units with Spell Immunity but the echo waves do not.
- The spell has no cast point i.e. it activates immediately.

Source:http://phoenixdota.blogspot.com/2009/01/total-annihilation-echo-slam.html

[_swEEt]

yeh i dont think its as good in hon as it is in dota should be changed imo

[Tyrando]

Pro post is pro, these pictures definately say it all.

[LegoPirate]

good point, i see what you mean (after my comp took 3 days to load the screenshots lol.)

fix that plx

[CandIeJack]

I love you for having these screenshots.
I love your way of proving a point.
I love that you noticed how Behemoth's ult sucked with proof that I couldn't find.

I hate it when people say love on the internet but your point here is as awesome as the first time I saw refresher on ES.

:D
:D :D
:D :D :D

[hackman5000]

Pro post is pro, these pictures definately say it all.

I hope this isn't sarcasm, because he definitely has a point. Behemoth is fairly weak in comparison to Earthshaker, with the echo waves not having their own range and with phase boots still being able to walk through fissure.

[Desirable]

The bug with Enhanced Marchers through Fissure already ruins Behe more than Earthshaker. Don't need to even go into mechanics regarding his ult. :/

[BinAly]

I agree, should work like in DotA.

[ElementUser]

Nice find :).

!support

If only the developpers implement all the good suggestions we had...

[ubachung]

I commented on this ingame not 15 minutes ago when I played as Behemoth. It would be great if this could be fixed/changed.

[BureMakutte]

Fix Behemoth's Ult!!!!!!!!! I approve this message.

[Gangbangjoe]

!support

[Sai]

keep everything about him the same and just make his ult be an instakill in that aoe, will be fine imo

>_>

yeah, !support

[Drasha]

support because that is so bloody cool.

[Cyferion]

I support this:)

[krucifix]

And THAT'S beta testing. Great stuff Maxter.

[_swEEt]

excellent post proven without a doubt

[Rippsy]

Fantastic post - that is exactly the sort've reporting that gets things fixed!

[krucifix]

So... how exactly does it extend that far?

Is it in the "if target died before the echo hits, it will seek the other nearest target." ??

[LegoPirate]

perty much.

[Maxter1]

I added some detailed explanation of Earthshaker's version, credits goes to phoenixdota.blogspot

[Idejder]

We made a dev aware of this tonight. He is going to be looking at the Behemoth's ult code tomorrow because of you. Feel proud. :)

[Karmashock]

his ult is already very powerful... does behemoth seem under powered to anyone?

[Maxter1]

We made a dev aware of this tonight. He is going to be looking at the Behemoth's ult code tomorrow because of you. Feel proud. :)

oh thanks :)

@Karmashock, Yes, Behemoth is powerful, his ultimate is just slighty different from Earthshaker (him in dota), which made him slightly weaker, but still powerfull.

If this is intentional and meant to be nerf, then so be it.
This thread is a about a question anyway.

On a separate note, here are some less noticable mechanics that may help the developement team in accurately porting some Heroes/Abilties
It may also help other co-beta testers in testing other unintentional differences the Devs might have missed.

http://phoenixdota.blogspot.com/search/label/Featured

[Pi1]

Also can his fissure be targetted onto a hero so it slams onto them.

It doesn't seem to track them and I miss most the time, so I been doing precision aims like with hook and valk javelins.

[Maxter1]

Also can his fissure be targetted onto a hero so it slams onto them.

It doesn't seem to track them and I miss most the time, so I been doing precision aims like with hook and valk javelins.

I reckon removing the "seeking" factor from fissure and other abilities alike (Carrion Swarm, Phoenix Wave) is intentional.

[Zellgadis]

+1. Godly post

[ajz]

good post, good find

[Karmashock]

a seeking fissure sounds wrong to me... I never played dota but I don't see that this would be good. Behemoth is already very powerful. Making him more powerful just seems ridiculous.

[weeD`SuFFo]

Fully support ^^

[noi_nai_tan]

a seeking fissure sounds wrong to me... I never played dota but I don't see that this would be good. Behemoth is already very powerful. Making him more powerful just seems ridiculous.

Fissure does NOT seek, it will be rendered where targeted, however (from what I remember) if you click on a hero, it will stun that hero even if they ran from the fissure location.

This is mainly seen when a targeted hero runs tangentially to ES.

[Karmashock]

Am I wrong in thinking it's better the way it is now?

[Bonburner]

Very nice pics - I can't tell if its better in HoN or in DotA because in HoN it does instant damage + stun while DotA can do more damage but slower ... of course you just initiate and people follow you in anyways.

[TreeHorse]

I reckon removing the "seeking" factor from fissure and other abilities alike (Carrion Swarm, Phoenix Wave) is intentional.

Probably. It was a little ridiculous to click-target an anti-mage with fissure then have him blink to max range in the opposite direction and it casts after he lands the blink, thereby stunning him.

[Aeona]

Support.

[willtsay]

Am I wrong in thinking it's better the way it is now?

well not really, he currently IS still top pick/ban (in dota) XP but dunno if this is the change for him xP

[Idejder]

After testing the shockwave and smaller shockwave mechanics you pointed out are actually the same. If you block that many creeps in HoN and use it the same relative amount of stuff dies, so it is working. There is a difference in that the graphic in HoN for the smaller waves are distortions in the air instead of the yellow waves of DotA, so it is way harder to see.

This part is working right. There are other smaller things about his ult that need tweaked, but the small waves range part does, infact, work correctly.

[CptCornflake]

support!

[Maxter1]

After testing the shockwave and smaller shockwave mechanics you pointed out are actually the same. If you block that many creeps in HoN and use it the same relative amount of stuff dies, so it is working. There is a difference in that the graphic in HoN for the smaller waves are distortions in the air instead of the yellow waves of DotA, so it is way harder to see.

This part is working right. There are other smaller things about his ult that need tweaked, but the small waves range part does, infact, work correctly.


Great to hear, glad you tested it. :D

About the cast-time of Shockwave
I once got my shockwave stopped mid-air (Behemoth jumps when casting shockwave) by electrician's grip ability.

This questions if it's instant like Echo Slam, with Earthshaker, you can literally walk straight, cast echo, without stopping for a second, I know that for a fact, it functions like Quill Spray (Armadon/Bristleback) which I believe the ability was based on.

If anyone doubts, test it in DotA, do -wtf for no cooldowns, then spam echo slam while spamming right click to move, he will continuously cast echo slam while moving without a flinch.


That's just another difference i noticed.
But, i think it's fine to keep it the way it is, more awesome factor when jumping :)

[nipple_fang]

On another note.

AFAIK Fissure used to do full damage to units directly around Tauren.

Similar to morphling wave.

Not the aftershock damage, but full damage.

Quite Useful

[zackattk]

/signed

I had an unfortunate run in with this the other day, Magmus was at like 100 HP so close to the radius that it looked like the waves hit and it didn't apparently so I was pretty upset that it wasn't identical to Echo.

[cakeflan]

support

[Satrofu]

Supported

[edxs]

I checked the ability files and it looks like the behavior should be identical. I think I'll do a test.

edit:

http://i32.tinypic.com/2wd3o1x.jpg

It looks like it's reaching the 1000 radius.

[Maxter1]

This is an old thread, before practice mode existed, plus some of the mechanics like cast-time and bouncing off invi units have been addressed already this recent patch.

[Gluttony]

You are dumb arent you`? Raigors ultimate is MIXED damage (suffers from armor, helm of the black legion, spell resistance, bucklers, etc)
You could completely block raigors ultimate with two vanguards (helm of the black legion) even with 200+ creeps around you.

Behemoth's ultimate is magic damage, and dont got the same restrictions.
you cant just PURELY buff an already powerful dota hero without making any adjustments.

[Maxter1]

You are dumb arent you`? Raigors ultimate is MIXED damage (suffers from armor, helm of the black legion, spell resistance, bucklers, etc)
You could completely block raigors ultimate with two vanguards (helm of the black legion) even with 200+ creeps around you.

Behemoth's ultimate is magic damage, and dont got the same restrictions.
you cant just PURELY buff an already powerful dota hero without making any adjustments.

What buff are you talking about?
The abilities are identical, my thread is a question not a suggestion.

A dev, a mod and the patch notes already stated that the 2 abilities both have bouncing echos, thus they are identical.

plus, the removal of cast time to match Raigor's ulti has already been implemented (1.41)

Raigor's ultimate cannot be "Completely Blocked" by 2 Vanguards

Echo Slam

http://www.playdota.com/img/hero/41/skill-3.jpg

Ability Type: Active
Targeting Type: Instant
Ability Hotkey: C

Raigor sends shockwaves shooting through the ground, dealing damage ricocheting to nearby targets for additional damage.


http://www.playdota.com/img/site/stable.jpg

Level
Mana Cost
Cooldown
Casting range
Area of Effect
Duration
Allowed Targets
Effects



1
145
150 seconds
N/A
500
N/A
Enemy units
200 Initial Damage and 35 Echo Damage



2
205
130 seconds
N/A
500
N/A
Enemy units
275 Initial Damage and 45 Echo Damage



3
265
110 seconds
N/A
500
N/A
Enemy units
350 Initial Damage and 65 Echo Damage

Notes

• Damage type: magic
• Will not damage ethereal units.
• The initial damage will go through magic immunity, the additional damage will not.
• The initial damage is dealt in an AoE of 500 around Earthshaker.
• The ability targets enemy corpses in addition to enemy living units, meaning dead units can cause additional echo waves.




Last time I checked, magic damage isn't blocked by Vanguard :)

Check this link to see damage types of different abilities from all heroes in DotA.
http://www.gamerzplanet.net/forums/sentinel-heroes-guides/339251-guide-on-every-heros-skill-spell-damage-type.html
P.S. Who's dumb?

[Clan_MoDi_H]

!support

[ElementUser]

Closing this thread, PM me if you want it reopened