View Full Version : Heroes of HoN should be like in DotA
my question is why do the makers of HoN not copied the heroes from dota 100%? all 102 heroes should be just copied in HoN. all spells should be the same like in dota so it would be more balanced because icefrog balanced it already.
Kietharr
07-06-2009, 12:45 PM
Not the latest build, that's yet to be balanced. I do agree that more DotA heroes should be making apperances.
kosta1
07-06-2009, 12:57 PM
I want my drunken panda.
Krangry
07-06-2009, 01:08 PM
I completely disagree, i would LOVE to see SOME heroes from dota come over, but all arent needed. This wasnt made to be a 100% dota clone, but an upgrade.
Sordak
07-06-2009, 01:20 PM
no.
nuff said.
then everyone would complain about how there aren't enough original characters.
besides, this is S2games, not a Blizzard community.
Kietharr
07-06-2009, 01:22 PM
I completely disagree, i would LOVE to see SOME heroes from dota come over, but all arent needed. This wasnt made to be a 100% dota clone, but an upgrade.
Yes, keyword is some. We don't need uninspired heroes like Razor, Clinkz, or Troll Warlord while fun to play and inventive heroes like potm, puck, kotl, beastmaster, ect should definitely be included.
There are definitely some heroes missing. Almost all HoN games I was in to this point, were VERY unbalanced. After 5 minutes of playing it was clear who will win. There was no turnover whatsoever in any of the games.
Gorgon, skeleton king, sand king, etc etc ...
dr1ss
07-06-2009, 03:21 PM
S2Games has created most of the heroes u see in HoN years ago (2003) they used them in Savage and Savage 2... and personnaly, I realy like the Newerth univers and their chars.
SyKot
07-06-2009, 04:04 PM
Yes, keyword is some. We don't need uninspired heroes like Razor, Clinkz, or Troll Warlord while fun to play and inventive heroes like potm, puck, kotl, beastmaster, ect should definitely be included.
This, and we have already some uninspiring heroes.. Madman..
Bhelogan
07-06-2009, 04:41 PM
all 102 heroes should be just copied in HoN.
Earlier in the Beta when it was common to play with S2 devs (they often would be half the group) someone was quizzing them about how long it took to do a model. (sorry don't remember which dev was answering). They said it took about a week to render one full model. If that is being true, you asking for almost 2 years worth of work just to catch up to the current rev. Not being DoTA player myself, I would rather see that time be spent on more original content.
Impeeched
07-06-2009, 04:45 PM
There's another thread on this in the main forum, and S2Maliken said they do plan to add many of the better DotA heroes.
BLUEPOWERVAN
07-06-2009, 05:05 PM
Heh, not being a dota player, you should be happier to recieve recycled dota ideas -- I mean, it's new to you, right? Not only that, but those that already know it, like it.
Bhelogan
07-06-2009, 07:33 PM
Heh, not being a dota player, you should be happier to recieve recycled dota ideas -- I mean, it's new to you, right? Not only that, but those that already know it, like it.
That is the thing.... those that already know it are considerably ahead on the learning curve.
Karmashock
07-06-2009, 07:54 PM
First they probably can't do that legally.
Blizzard likely owns those characters and they couldn't be copied without their permission. Which they probably wouldn't give.
Second, if Dota is to grow beyond a WC3 map then you're going to have to accept some change. So decide. If you just want WC3... you already have that. You should be excited by new units... new players... a new engine. All of it based on Dota and with great respect for the game but at the same time NEW. It's a good thing. It's a vitality. Cutting that off leads to stagnation and death.
Think about it.
Kietharr
07-06-2009, 11:32 PM
Blizzard has zero right to the skill concepts of DotA heroes. If they wanted to use wc3 models and sounds there'd be an issue, but obviously that's not the case.
Karmashock
07-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Blizzard has zero right to the skill concepts of DotA heroes. If they wanted to use wc3 models and sounds there'd be an issue, but obviously that's not the case.
people were asking for their "drunk panda"... anyway, it shouldn't matter. Why do the characters have to be identicle? it's a little insincere for the dota players to ask the newbies to learn when they're not prepared to so much as relearn some characters.:rolleyes:;):)
no.
nuff said.
Great opinion, maybe you should validate it with some reasoning.
---
Anyways. I gotta disagree with you, JTR. I think so many of the heroes in DotA aren't balanced. While great for pubbies, league play seems to revolve around the same heroes (many of which are in the game already). I'd like to see more of these heroes in game (PotM, Puck) along with some new heroes that could potentially belong in a league match. (Heroes like Nymphora and Dark Lady are a nice start, but still need some tweaking.)
Drakulina
07-07-2009, 02:18 AM
I would like to see some more original characters. also some more items,maps!
this may be a dumb question but since the game is nearly identical to dota, obviously with icefrog's consent, why not just use the exact dota item names?
or atleast provide us with an option to toggle dota item names or something.
or perhaps a custom user made file people could dl that changed names
Inconmon
07-07-2009, 02:43 AM
The non-dota players should seriously stfu. I wish to punch you people in the face when you complain about "the learning curve" is "unfair" because the "others already know the heroes" and you want more "new stuff".
Can you guys be any more retarded? You dont even know the things you dont want.
Karmashock
07-07-2009, 07:47 AM
The non-dota players should seriously stfu. I wish to punch you people in the face when you complain about "the learning curve" is "unfair" because the "others already know the heroes" and you want more "new stuff".
Can you guys be any more retarded? You dont even know the things you dont want.
This is needlessly hostile, puerile, and offers nothing of value to the thread.
We all have just as much right to influence the path of this game as you do. Assuming some position of superiority is not only unjustified but entirely futile as no one will accept it.
Please make an effort to be polite to other forum members or at least refrain from indiscriminately insulting large sections of the player base.
If the game is to succeed it must attract new players. That clearly is not you. At the same time it has to satisfy the old dota players enough to attact a respectable number of you. There is a balance to be struck. That balance is in your interest whether you're aware of it or understand it. It helps to make the game and the devs that support it more healthy. That health means more people servicing this genre and possibly sequels.
If instead you want HoN to die in the womb and for the gaming community at large to treat your whole genre like poison... then carry on.
I would say the choice is yours, but hopefully it will develop positively regardless of your intentions. In any event, my objective is simply to make plain that the community is growing. And that is a good thing. It means change... and the more mature members of the Dota community will embrace that.
Love and peace, Karmashock.
Lycaon
07-07-2009, 08:05 AM
The non-dota players should seriously stfu. I wish to punch you people in the face when you complain about "the learning curve" is "unfair" because the "others already know the heroes" and you want more "new stuff".
Can you guys be any more retarded? You dont even know the things you dont want.
Correction on that, it's not unfair because 'everyone else knows the heroes' - it has a 'steep learning curve' because the game is just brutally different from anything else out there. The player honestly can't do much on their own, which is a challenge for people new to the format. This elitist attitude shared by you and some others is not attractive to new players and despite being in beta has no doubt driven players away. If you can't accept it that new players will be making their suggestions, some of which you wont like, then maybe HoN isn't for you. Of course it's pointless to argue about this over the internet.
Besides, why so hostile? It's just a game.
Regardless, if it becomes a direct DoTa clone I'll likely try that instead - not costing a thing and already having a strong following might help there. Yes I want more new stuff.
Karmashock
07-07-2009, 09:21 AM
http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6106/14uz4zp.gif
(http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6106/14uz4zp.gif)
Classic.:D
GloryHoled
07-07-2009, 11:27 AM
My Dota clan has serious issues with this game because there are so many heroes missing/so many new heroes etc. I would rather see time spent getting the dota heroes in than seeing new content at this point. We can add new heroes later after the dota heroes are in.
ubidat
07-07-2009, 12:05 PM
I completely disagree, i would LOVE to see SOME heroes from dota come over, but all arent needed. This wasnt made to be a 100% dota clone, but an upgrade.
As he said.
This is not mean to be a 100% dota clone, so I take that all the "dota" heroes won't make an appearance, only some classics.
I do realise that HoN is and always will be heavily influenced by dota.
I'd much rather see more original heroes like Zephyr, Puppetmaster, Nymphora being brought in than "ALL" the dota heroes.
Newerth 4 life :D
-ubi
As it stands, HoN isn't worth playing over DotA. One of the biggest reasons one can play DotA over and over again is due to the large variety of heroes, which HoN does not have. I really doubt that the Devs have a total of near 100 purely unique heroes (no association to DotA) to bring in at their disposal at this very moment, and I also doubt they ever will. Although Inconmon was direct about it, he has a point. Having DotA heroes won't bother DotA players. And to non-DotA players, these might as well be new heroes for all they know. Do you really think that the game won't attract new players because it has the same heroes as DotA? That is a very weak argument. HoN is basically meant to be DotA but improved without the WC3 restrictions. New players wouldn't know what is the same or not and any heroes they make will not change the basics of the game.
And why is everyone capitalizing the T in DotA?
Bhelogan
07-07-2009, 12:35 PM
It's not that the non-DotA players area against having heroes imported in, as has been done for many so far. It's the cry that 'Every' hero should be imported that is over kill. Those that are viewed as essential, well balanced and fun to play, sure bring em over.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=704&highlight=unique
Korgan
07-07-2009, 02:12 PM
I vote for implementing heroes at a pace of 4 DotA clones (100% identical) + 1 new hero.
It's not that the non-DotA players area against having heroes imported in, as has been done for many so far. It's the cry that 'Every' hero should be imported that is over kill. Those that are viewed as essential, well balanced and fun to play, sure bring em over.
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=704&highlight=unique
I enjoy playing every single DotA hero with the exception of maybe 3. And those only because I haven't actually gotten to play them (Admiral, TC, Bat).
Sometimes I feel like owning everything in two hits with PA or stun locking with void and having sub par Ghoul HP.
Sometimes I feel like having imba base damage with Treant or just never dying with Panda.
Sometimes I feel like harassing the **** out of the opponent and babysitting with Warlock / Lich.
Sometimes I feel like being hella gay and getting a Dagon with Lion.
Sometimes, I even feel like playing heroes which have no right to be called a hero (Clinkz, Meepo).
And other times I just feel like being a straight up mofo with Axe.
Every DotA hero is well balanced and unique. No hero is 'essential'. The only time a hero becomes 'essential' is when it is the counter to another hero, which can be solved by removing said hero. (Behemoth right now.)
Summary: You cannot judge what is 'essential' and 'fun' to play, as that is all dependent on other factors and / or the player.
Does anyone actually find Specter fun to play? A long ass CD weak nuke with some funnish effects I suppose. Sure the ult can be amusing sometimes. But her job is basically to get a heart, a radiance, and die in team fights after she ults. She is still one of the most valuable carries and her role is unique.
Korgan
07-07-2009, 02:22 PM
I enjoy playing every single DotA hero with the exception of maybe 3. And those only because I haven't actually gotten to play them (Admiral, TC, Bat).
Sometimes I feel like owning everything in two hits with PA or stun locking with void and having sub par Ghoul HP.
Sometimes I feel like having imba base damage with Treant or just never dying with Panda.
Sometimes I feel like harassing the **** out of the opponent and babysitting with Warlock / Lich.
Sometimes I feel like being hella gay and getting a Dagon with Lion.
Sometimes, I even feel like playing heroes which have no right to be called a hero (Clinkz, Meepo).
And other times I just feel like being a straight up mofo with Axe.
Every DotA hero is well balanced and unique. No hero is 'essential'. The only time a hero becomes 'essential' is when it is the counter to another hero, which can be solved by removing said hero. (Behemoth right now.)
Summary: You cannot judge what is 'essential' and 'fun' to play, as that is all dependent on other factors and / or the player.
Does anyone actually find Specter fun to play? A long ass CD weak nuke with some funnish effects I suppose. Sure the ult can be amusing sometimes. But her job is basically to get a heart, a radiance, and die in team fights after she ults. She is still one of the most valuable carries and her role is unique.
Very well said.
I also would like to see most if not all heroes of DotA.
Otherwise a choice would be made which leaves many people dissapointed because their 3 favorite heroes are not ingame or are changed totally.
Inconmon
07-07-2009, 04:45 PM
This elitist attitude shared by you and some others is not attractive to new players and despite being in beta has no doubt driven players away.
Huh? I help new players in the game and have no problem with them whatsoever. There is no "elitist attitude" by me or anyone else that is a real problem. Problem is the part of the Savage 1+2 community that did not play DotA before HoN and cannot deal with the fact that this game is basicly already another game with a huge community.
Really, at this point I actually hate these people and if my postings drive those away -- all the better.
DotA has still two or more DOZEN well designed heroes that simply "need" to be in the game. S2 knows that and already said they are working on more DotA Heroes and the one we have right now were selected because they required certain game mechanics which will be used again and again.
Yet even after those statement we have people with "DotA is not HoN" and similar signatures, postings complaining about DotA names being used in the game, postings saying that they dont want more dota heroes EVEN THOUGH THEY DONT EVEN KNOW THEM. Thats stupid. How can you be against something even though you have no idea what it is?
And then there is another thread RIGHTFULLY complaining that the changes to DotA heroes were actually BAD (some are and someone of S2 already agreed that the balancing isnt right in some cases I believe.. forgot the exact words) and we have the pack jump in saying again "Oh but its not DotA, its HoN and we dont want things to be like DotA, even though we dont know DotA!!!"
Stupid people make me angry and I like postings flames. 1+1 = my postings
Lycaon
07-07-2009, 06:28 PM
Good for you for helping new players. Why do you want to punch them in the face, then?
You're missing the point with the DotA names/heroes thing. It's not that we don't want -any- of them at all, just copying all of them over along with changing all the names back to their DotA counterparts is counter productive. There is no point in having a clone of a game still in development, it's just useless. Sure, you're moving away from the WC3 format however it should not directly compete with DotA - doing so will split the playerbase for both and lessen the revenue for S2 games.
That being said, maybe we do need more heroes. I don't care if they're based off DotA originals or not at this point, but you can't expect them to think up a new concept/make a new model/make skills/balance at this stage of development for the remaining ~60 odd heroes that not everyone wants in game.
Alhanalem
07-07-2009, 07:06 PM
at op: Why? because being original is a much better idea than copying everything. Fewer would buy if the only thing it offered over dota was different maps and a matchmaking system. It needs original content too.
Korgan
07-07-2009, 07:49 PM
at op: Why? because being original is a much better idea than copying everything. Fewer would buy if the only thing it offered over dota was different maps and a matchmaking system. It needs original content too.
Granted, original content is better.
But making half assed copies is worse than copying straight.
Take all these Dota clones which are far worse than the DotA originals.
Or take those bad "new heroes" like Madman, just the generic 1-click hero.
Sometimes it's better to make a good copy than a bad "original".
My opinion is: Make 100% copies and make completly new heroes.
A pace of 4 old copies + 1new hero would ensure that the roster grows quick till the critical mass for counter picks and competetive play is reached. And the originality of HoN is saved.
AND you would satisfy anyone that hopes HoN is DotA 2.0
StormFlock
07-07-2009, 09:43 PM
Yeah, i agree with some of you, they need to just put in heroes that require at least some skill, like puck and windrunner, and morph, and add new heroes that are not like Madman. Madman is just an op stealth troll warlord. and whos idea was it to combined bh and sniper? wtf is that ****? boring, easy to play, and too powerful.
JumJum
07-07-2009, 09:56 PM
The non-dota players should seriously stfu. I wish to punch you people in the face when you complain about "the learning curve" is "unfair" because the "others already know the heroes" and you want more "new stuff".
Can you guys be any more retarded? You dont even know the things you dont want.
I wish all the dota players would seriously stfu. Their elitist hostile insulting attitude contributes to nothing but negativity and trolling. If you don't have anything useful to say, then don't say it.
Karmashock
07-07-2009, 10:33 PM
There is no "elitist attitude" by me or anyone else that is a real problem.
While you may not have intended an elitist attitude that is what you expressed. Furthermore, the dota community is infamous for the same problem.
Arguing the point is futile. It's common knowledge at this point.
Please make an effort in the future to be more respectful. We know and value your experience but that doesn't give you limitless veto power over anyone else. Respect others and you'll find them more likely to respect you. Fail to do so and become a pariah.
========================================
All this said, there's nothing wrong with S2 using Dota for source material. It's a great resource and the community there is knowledgeable and clearly interested. However, everyone needs to be flexible because it's probably not in anyone's interest to just make a dota clone with better graphics if it doesn't improve on dota or at least offer some new variaty.
Furthermore, the dota community really has to understand that without new players their community will atrophy and die. It's literally accept some new blood or suicide.
Heh, and many of the attitudes seen in this thread is why I never played more than 2 games of DotA. My first game ever playing DotA, my whole team started cussing me out for an item I bought. I have thick skin, and it didn't really bug me, but holy crap. I really wasn't interested in being berated as I tried to learn the game.
Honestly, I think S2 has kind of dug themselves in a hole. You can see so much of the community wants it to be a pure DotA clone, but the game seems pretty pointless if that is the case. I think there is definitely room for more DotA inspired heroes...but I would find it quite sad if they had to copy every single hero from DotA.
I think people need to put a little more faith in S2, they can create unique and balanced heroes that fit in with the DotA carbon copies.
Inconmon
07-08-2009, 02:00 AM
Their elitist hostile insulting attitude contributes to nothing but negativity and trolling. If you don't have anything useful to say, then don't say it.
Look, as you "dont get it", let me try to explain it in easier words so you can actually follow me...
Your ranting about a "elitist attitude" is turning this thread and/or discussion into something it is not. This is not about people looking down on you, this is not about you being a newb and it is not about DotA vs [Whatever].
It is about people saying "I dont want it to be like DotA" even though they do not play DotA. Which is stupid, of course.
If someone who actually plays DotA would say "Well there are many heroes I dont want to see in HoN because they are not very well designed and I never liked them" -- OKAY. Some might agree, some might disagree. Its fine, because he knows what he is talking about.
Again: It is about people saying "I dont want it to be like DotA" even though they do not play DotA. (Which is stupid! Did I mention that its stupid? Not sure..)
So put your retarded "elitist attitude" to a place where the sun doesnt shine and f off, because I really dont care what your problem with the DotA community is (I am not part of it, btw, quit Dota 2-3 years ago) and that you want to spew it around at every chance. It has simply nothing todo with my postings. The reason I am hostile is related with people being stupid and nothing else.
Oerba
07-08-2009, 01:08 PM
people were asking for their "drunk panda"... anyway, it shouldn't matter. Why do the characters have to be identicle? it's a little insincere for the dota players to ask the newbies to learn when they're not prepared to so much as relearn some characters.:rolleyes:;):)
honestly i dont mind all the heroes looking different. but i've been saying in games that i hope the drunken panda actually comes back as a panda lol because that would be so awesome.
DMITRY420
07-08-2009, 01:14 PM
While I want HoN to be extremely similar to DotA, I don't want it to be an exact clone. Demanding that they should port over DotA's whole hero catalogue is a bit overkill. Give me the competitive heroes that define DotA and I'm happy. I want to see more heroes like nymph/puppet.
XxjjxX
07-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Mirana should be in HoN, mirana is one of the most picks heroes in DotA, if already have it, sorry
Karmashock
07-08-2009, 05:29 PM
honestly i dont mind all the heroes looking different. but i've been saying in games that i hope the drunken panda actually comes back as a panda lol because that would be so awesome.
I think the panda was my favorite hero from WC3... but Newerth has it's own lore and story to tell. Give it a chance. :)
rscott
07-08-2009, 06:04 PM
To those of you who are so anti DotA concepts in HoN, you're being illogical. There's 100+ heroes and items that have been extensively play tested and balanced for the last 5 years. Adding in the content from DotA will only make the game better, not worse. Why go through the same process that DotA has gone through with each one of these heroes, when its pretty obvious that the map that has inspired this game is pretty well balanced.
I'm not saying that there isn't room for improvement in some cases, but regressing the map 3 years just to suit a minority of people who are anti-dota seems asinine to me.
Bhelogan
07-08-2009, 08:30 PM
Wow, both sides of the argument are being incorrectly represented, then attacked. Then others jump in and start flaming, which does nothing but diminish the credibility of the flamer. Lets get back to the real issues, and look at the pros and cons of the proposition.
Proposition; HoN Dev’s should Copy all 102 DotA heroes.
Pros:
1) Heroes have been developed and play tested for a long time
2) A lot of the work is done
3) DotA players, to whom the game is marketed, are familiar with them, somewhat expect them to be in play, and genuinely enjoy having the mix
Cons:
1) The amount of time to import all heroes is pretty excessive
2) HoN should have something unique and new to offer in addition to just the engine
3) Potential issues with copy rights where DotA characters are taking from the WC3 campaign.
I think most of us can agree that the correct answer is going to be somewhere in the middle. Which side it should be closer to is what should be discussed. Let’s keep it civil, and make this thread something work reading, not just a flame fest to get locked by admin.
Mugenrider
07-09-2009, 01:59 AM
I downloaded Savage 2 to try it out and guess what. Some of the heroes in HoN are from the Savage universe. By that I mean that the models are already completed, that saves them a lot of time and effort. The problem is that they probably do not have enough models to use so they have to create new ones from scratch, which takes a bit of time. I'm really hoping that we can see new heroes soon enough.
Inconmon
07-09-2009, 02:03 AM
I downloaded Savage 2 to try it out and guess what. Some of the heroes in HoN are from the Savage universe.
Yes, like LEGIONNAIRE and DEMENTED SHAMAN and BLOOD HUNTER. All very unique and savage and no trace of dota there!
Mugenrider
07-09-2009, 02:06 AM
Yes, like LEGIONNAIRE and DEMENTED SHAMAN and BLOOD HUNTER. All very unique and savage and no trace of dota there!
Uhh....I'm talking about the character models, and not the hero ideas. :rolleyes:. You don't bother reading the whole thing do you?
What I am saying is that it is not that they do not want to import the heroes from DotA to HoN, but the fact that it takes time and resource. They were able to do it more quickly initially is because they used some of the models from the savage universe. Of course, they do not have enough of those completed models because there are a very large cast of heroes in DotA, so they have to slowly take their time and draw their own versions of the heroes. Hope that clears it up.