Votekicks should not give a leave.

[Rasta]

This is kind of a one-sided argument, since we all know S2 stated that vote-kick is a last ditch thing and should rarely happen, but the fact remains that it is abused. With the player report system incoming to report greifing and intentional feeding, it silly to keep it this way to punish players who are new, to punish players who do not agree with their team, and to punish 'cheese' strategies like backdoor.

It should not give you a leave and make you suffer the penalties of leaving because you did not leave the game. No matter what you did or said in that game, you are not a leaver.

When someone gets votekicked for a stupid reason, S2 cannot justify if it was right to votekick them or if all 9 of the people in the game were stupid and the person getting kicked was right. What S2 can do is not have to punish people for something that is out of their control.

Case 1

Brand new player picks up HoN for the first time. Joins a game, gets roflstomped, gets frustrated, team vote-kicks. The player has perseverance though and wants to learn the game. So they join a few more and get a handle on the basics, getting votekicked a few more times.

Player wants to continue to play HoN, but now has a hefty leave % from being votekicked in all these cases, even though the player has not left a single game.

Case 2

Player backdoors the enemy team with :warb:. Both teams agree that it is cheap and kick him. He is now a leaver because he did something that is completely legal and punishes bad players?

Case 3

Player is constantly raging at his own team and being a prick. Even though no one in the game liked him, they all could have simply /ignored, and grown a pair.

Instead he gets vote kicked and becomes a leaver when he is not a leaver, he is just arrogant, or he was good and his whole team was terrible but thought they were good.

[Naratu]

I'm torn between the options. I don't think it should count as *a* leave. It should count as 2 leaves. Your internet didn't accidentally go out, and nothing big came up that forced you out of the game. You were kicked for a conscious decision which you made that ruined the playing experience for someone else. To this day, I haven't seen a single example of people being kicked when they didn't deserve it. A leave indicates someone who left the game. If you are kicked, you are forced to leave the game, so yes it is a leave.

Another option should be to also implement "never kicked" games where you can only join if you've never been kicked, and set the threshold lower than the leave%, say 2.5%.

PS. Backdooring is a legitimate strategy and PSR is a working system.

[Rasta]

I'm torn between the options. I don't think it should count as *a* leave. It should count as 2 leaves. Your internet didn't accidentally go out, and nothing big came up that forced you out of the game. You were kicked for a conscious decision which you made that ruined the playing experience for someone else. To this day, I haven't seen a single example of people being kicked when they didn't deserve it. A leave indicates someone who left the game. If you are kicked, you are forced to leave the game, so yes it is a leave.

Another option should be to also implement "never kicked" games where you can only join if you've never been kicked, and set the threshold lower than the leave%, say 2.5%.

PS. Backdooring is a legitimate strategy and PSR is a working system.

There are plenty of examples. You see a couple in the forums every few days.

For example there was one not long ago when 9 people knew each other and there was 1 pub.. the pub did not do ANYTHING wrong at all, the 9 people just kicked him out of spite.

Still, it shouldn't give you the same punishment as leave because THEY are not related, they are 2 totally different things. I am all for having a 'vote-kicked' option when you create a game to have people who have never been kicked. At the same time you should be able to join matchmaking, you are not a leaver, the cards of fate just shat on you.

[Naratu]

For example there was one not long ago when 9 people knew each other and there was 1 pub.. the pub did not do ANYTHING wrong at all, the 9 people just kicked him out of spite.

Still, it shouldn't give you the same punishment as leave because THEY are not related, they are 2 totally different things. I am all for having a 'vote-kicked' option when you create a game to have people who have never been kicked. At the same time you should be able to join matchmaking, you are not a leaver, the cards of fate just shat on you.

In the extremely rare example, I'm sure you can send an email to support@heroesofnewerth.com and get that leave taken off your record(and most likely some sort of punishment/infraction against those 9 players). Pointing out an extremely rare case doesn't automatically pardon the rest of the people being kicked.

They are related. If you are kicked, you have left the game. It's extremely simple. Further, if you're kicked, you're most likely someone who no one wants on their team in the first place, since you're either arrogant or just flat out annoying to play with.

[Rasta]

In the extremely rare example, I'm sure you can send an email to support@heroesofnewerth.com and get that leave taken off your record(and most likely some sort of punishment/infraction against those 9 players). Pointing out an extremely rare case doesn't automatically pardon the rest of the people being kicked.

They are related. If you are kicked, you have left the game. It's extremely simple. Further, if you're kicked, you're most likely someone who no one wants on their team in the first place, since you're either arrogant or just flat out annoying to play with.

The thing is, it is not an extremely rare case, it is an extremely common case. The root of the problem is the mental state of 95% of players who play= they have no humility, they are scrub, and they cannot take criticism. If you looked in this thread http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=135314

You will notice how many people shared their own experience that they have been kicked for stupid reasons.

[CallofDuty5]

I'm torn between the options. I don't think it should count as *a* leave. It should count as 2 leaves. Your internet didn't accidentally go out, and nothing big came up that forced you out of the game. You were kicked for a conscious decision which you made that ruined the playing experience for someone else. To this day, I haven't seen a single example of people being kicked when they didn't deserve it. A leave indicates someone who left the game. If you are kicked, you are forced to leave the game, so yes it is a leave.

Another option should be to also implement "never kicked" games where you can only join if you've never been kicked, and set the threshold lower than the leave%, say 2.5%.

PS. Backdooring is a legitimate strategy and PSR is a working system.

your lucky not to suffer then, happens more in low tier games

[Rasta]

I just got a pm from a player having this problem, he was 1300 psr and new, and he keeps getting kicked and has leaver %.

Whether it is right or wrong to kick them is not up to S2 to decide. Whether they should get leave% for not being a leaver is the issue here.

[KorokFanNr1]

Case 1

Brand new player picks up HoN for the first time. Joins a game, gets roflstomped, gets frustrated, team vote-kicks. The player has perseverance though and wants to learn the game. So they join a few more and get a handle on the basics, getting votekicked a few more times.

Player wants to continue to play HoN, but now has a hefty leave % from being votekicked in all these cases, even though the player has not left a single game.He should play no stats games. Can't stress that enough and I just hope S2 games soon lets new players know ingame that by playing nostat games until they are ready, and by playing support instead of taking one of the limited carry slots in a team, they won't be ruining someone else's game.


Case 2

Player backdoors the enemy team with :warb:. Both teams agree that it is cheap and kick him. He is now a leaver because he did something that is completely legal and punishes bad players?I honestly doubt your entire team is made out of faggots who think backdoor is evil. Anyways, the ammount of kicks you should receive for this shouldn't be high enough to make you a leaver. You could always ask your team mates about their position regarding backdoor to ensure that you won't be kicked and do it in the games you have at least one who agrees with you.


Case 3

Player is constantly raging at his own team and being a prick. Even though no one in the game liked him, they all could have simply /ignored.

Instead he gets vote kicked and becomes a leaver when he is not a leaver, he is just arrogant.Working as intended, you don't want to just ignore, that would teach nothing at all.

[Rasta]

He should play no stats games. Can't stress that enough and I just hope S2 games soon lets new players know ingame that by playing nostat games until they are ready, and by playing support instead of taking one of the limited carry slots in a team, they won't be ruining someone else's game.

I honestly doubt your entire team is made out of faggots who think backdoor is evil. Anyways, the ammount of kicks you should receive for this shouldn't be high enough to make you a leaver. You could always ask your team mates about their position regarding backdoor to ensure that you won't be kicked and do it in the games you have at least one who agrees with you.

Working as intended, you don't want to just ignore, that would teach nothing at all.

Newbies don't know anything about no-stats games till someone takes the time to explain it to them.

You haven't seen nothing about puzzlebeast. I am over 30% warbeast, and let me tell you, it happens more then you think.

Not working as intended because it all boils down to the point of view of a scrub. A 'rager' is just someone critcizing a scrub, the scrub cannot deal with it, being in denial (it's the main attribute of a scrub) so they vote-kick.

[KorokFanNr1]

Newbies don't know anything about no-stats games till someone takes the time to explain it to them.

That's why I said S2 should "recommend" newbies to join no stats games and to play support heroes/buy courier.


You haven't seen nothing about puzzlebeast. I am over 30% warbeast, and let me tell you, it happens more then you think.

Well, like I said, in order to advoid being kicked make sure you have at least one ally in your team before doing it. Ask them if they have a problem if you backdoor and most of the times someone will jump and say he doesn't have a problem.



Not working as intended because it all boils down to the point of view of a scrub. A 'rager' is just someone critcizing a scrub, the scrub cannot deal with it, being in denial (it's the main attribute of a scrub) so they vote-kick.

The view of the 4 scrubs in your team decided that you are harming the team with your rage, which is a rightfull way to see things, so yeah, working as intended.

[A_v_a_t_a_r]

I voted no on this for a couple important reasons, but I have a different idea. Make a votekick increase your leave score by one, but for your first 10-20 games being votekicked doesn't increase your leave score. This will prevent votekicking from hurting noobs and turning them into leavers.

1) Say a player is doing badly in a game, he doesn't like the hero he randomed, etc. He doesn't want to leave because he doesn't want to increase his leave percentage but he doesn't want to play this game anymore. Suddenly he gets an idea. He starts raging at his teammates and running into the enemy fountain. He gets kicked, as he wanted, and gets a free leave.

2) Almost all votekicks are well justified. More justified than the random leaves people get from internet problems. I have rarely seen people get kicked on their performance in the game alone, they generally are feeding or raging a ton at the team. Even the sand wraith who died for bloodlust, *****ed about it and kicked the solo mid out of his lane, and proceeded to blame the team as he went 0-6 didn't get kicked from the game, and if he had it would have been more justified than the guy who's internet randomly disconnected.

I do think new players shouldn't be hurt by votekicking, which is why I propose that the first 10-20 games you are protected from leaves by votekick.

[Rasta]

4077948

I asked to votekick the kraken, and it was passed within the first ballot. Then succubus was afk so we booted succubus too, where, I would have afked at that point if I was getting owned that badly.

[Gondar]

What's the point of a votekick system if you're NOT marked as a leaver?

There would be TONS more abuse that way. If you have to leave, or you're not having fun, what's to stop you from griefing or feeding to make them kick you INSTEAD of you leaving?

Nothing. That way you get a free pass to leave games without being marked as a leaver. It would promote flaming/griefing/feeding/general douchebaggary.

Anyone having problems being votekicked to the point of being marked as a leaver needs to look in the mirror, and find what the problem is. The problem isn't the system.

In Rasta's case there was already a whole thread about it. He got kicked cause he was flaming his team calling them immigrants, scrubs, etc. He was 3-10 and was kicked.

He posts a thread and tries to blame his kicking on the fact that he attempted to backdoor with warbeast.

He has CONVINCED himself that the reason he was kicked is cause he was backdooring. That's not the case. Why would your own team kick you for something that is perfectly legal, and even helps your team win? They don't. They kick you cause you flame and feed. A very legitimate excuse to vote kick.

If NINE people think you shouldn't be in a game consisting of 10 people... well.. brush up on your social/HoN skills.

Your 3 points:

1: new players should play no stats/noob games. They shouldn't be kicked out of a noob game for just plain feeding.

2: Backdoorers aren't kicked by their own teammates, simply for the sole reason of backdooring, and therefore can't be votekicked, without their entire team signing off.

3: If a player is being a douche and flaming and NINE players don't want to play with him, INCLUDING HIS OWN TEAM, then no, 9 people shouldn't have to ignore him. That player should learn how to not be a douche.

I like being able to join non-leaver games and play with people I know will probably be there until the end. Whether that be because they won't leave, OR they won't be kicked.

What exactly are the consequences of vote kick if you're not marked as a leaver? A leaver is someone who doesn't stay to the end of the game. If you're CONSISTENTLY being kicked, YOU'RE NOT STAYING UNTIL THE END OF THE GAME. You're a leaver.

The only people who have a problem with this system are the ones who are being kicked.

Big surprise.

Rasta is marked as a leaver for being kicked too many times. I wonder why he feels so strongly about the votekick system?

[Sheriff]

I got kicked once because server started an immense lagg me as valk and enemy swiftblade clearly got the worse of it

team got upset because my arrows sucked and ulti was late

3 second delay on wtf do they expect

[Gondar]

I got kicked once because server started an immense lagg me as valk and enemy swiftblade clearly got the worse of it

team got upset because my arrows sucked and ulti was late

3 second delay on wtf do they expect

Usually server problems would mean everyone connected to that server has problems. Check your ping before joining a game, or check roommates/bros/sis to make sure they're not downloading. If only 1-2 people are lagging it's probably on your side.

If you're 3 seconds behind why would you even want to stay in the game anyways? The leaver threshold is there for these situations. For games with unplayable lag or power outages. They don't give you some leeway so you can pick and choose when you want to leave games.

[SilverStars]

Your suggestion could be improved if there was some method stopping people from abusing votekick so they didn't become a leaver. For example:

"Hey guys I don't want to play anymore, I've died twice in a row, votekick me"

Of course it wouldn't work all the time, but enough that players would abuse it.

[BattleHungeR]

why are people voting wrong..

[Gondar]

why are people voting wrong..

It's the people like the OP who are getting vote kicked. Big surprise.

He asks for reasons why you should be marked a leaver. I give him a half dozen, and he doesn't even respond to them.

He makes something up about me stalking him, and only saying comments due to my "personal reflection".

These statements alone should make the OP lose all credibility.

If anyone really believes S2 games is going to remove votekick because posters like rasta have a hard time having people not kick him. They're delusional.

People need to learn how to interact in a way that people actually WANT you to be around. It won't only help you in HoN, but in real life too.

Besides, playing with ONE friend completely negates the possibility of being kicked.

That should tell you something about the people crying for it to be removed.

[Sheriff]

Usually server problems would mean everyone connected to that server has problems. Check your ping before joining a game, or check roommates/bros/sis to make sure they're not downloading. If only 1-2 people are lagging it's probably on your side.

If you're 3 seconds behind why would you even want to stay in the game anyways? The leaver threshold is there for these situations. For games with unplayable lag or power outages. They don't give you some leeway so you can pick and choose when you want to leave games.


I never lagg unless server but my teammates seemed fine

and the game over they were destroying our last 2 towers then i get a kick

[Rasta]

This thread, and your other, "I'm the most kicked person in HoN" thread are the only threads I've ever responded to you in, and what else have a I disagreed with you about besides vote kicks? I completely agree with backdooring, so why would I kick someone for it? Everything I stated in my original reply is based on FACTS. Yours is based on your BIAS towards the system that only hurts flamers LIKE YOU.

We've already established THROUGH REPLAYS, that you are the kind of person who rages at noobs, feeds, and has an on going problem with being vote kicked.



So.. basically everything you said was wrong, hypocritical, and not based on facts. Try again.

How about you respond to my original reply, you know, the one that brings up MANY good reasons to keep the vote kick leaver system?

You disagree with me on rage. To you, when I am trying by best to win a game, it sounds like rage when I explain strategy/heropicks/itembuilds to my team.

I am not raging. I am trying to win. The thing is, too many players do not give a fuk about strategy, they just button mash and gogogo, no wards, no courier, gg, the game is over before it even started, and I am there saying 'I told you so'.

Sorry but IMO, if a player fails at picking he needs to be 'raged' at. If I fail at picking I 'rage' at myself for it.

Basically what I am saying is this, PLAYERS WHO PLAY THIS GAME AND ARE UNDER 1700 PSR HAVE NO HUMILITY AND CANNOT TAKE CRITICISM AND NEED TO GROW SOME BALLS. THAT WAY WHEN I AM CRITISIZING YOUR FAILBOAT DECISIONS, stop trying to votekick me and listen to what I am saying. I am not out there to spite you, I am there to critsize your fail decisions, that way you can make better decisions over the course of the game and ultimately win.

Instead the scrubs start a votekick and gg, I'm kicked. They would rather lose the game then listen to a critical opinion of them.


Your suggestion could be improved if there was some method stopping people from abusing votekick so they didn't become a leaver. For example:

"Hey guys I don't want to play anymore, I've died twice in a row, votekick me"

Of course it wouldn't work all the time, but enough that players would abuse it.

If every single player in the game thinks that he is free to go and deserves to get out of a game early and not get a leave for it, how is that anything but fair?

The way I see it, leaving is fine and has always been, people are on a mission to lynch leavers when they are rare in HoN. If you do not want him to leave you can just vote no. Then he won't get his free leave. Remember, all 9 people will have to agree he is free to go.

[Gondar]

You disagree with me on rage. To you, when I am trying by best to win a game, it sounds like rage when I explain strategy/heropicks/itembuilds to my team.

I am not raging. I am trying to win. The thing is, too many players do not give a fuk about strategy, they just button mash and gogogo, no wards, no courier, gg, the game is over before it even started, and I am there saying 'I told you so'.

Sorry but IMO, if a player fails at picking he needs to be 'raged' at. If I fail at picking I 'rage' at myself for it.

Basically what I am saying is this, PLAYERS WHO PLAY THIS GAME AND ARE UNDER 1700 PSR HAVE NO HUMILITY AND CANNOT TAKE CRITICISM AND NEED TO GROW SOME BALLS. THAT WAY WHEN I AM CRITISIZING YOUR FAILBOAT DECISIONS, stop trying to votekick me and listen to what I am saying. I am not out there to spite you, I am there to critsize your fail decisions, that way you can make better decisions over the course of the game and ultimately win.

Instead the scrubs start a votekick and gg, I'm kicked. They would rather lose the game then listen to a critical opinion of them.



If every single player in the game thinks that he is free to go and deserves to get out of a game early and not get a leave for it, how is that anything but fair?

The way I see it, leaving is fine and has always been, people are on a mission to lynch leavers when they are rare in HoN. If you do not want him to leave you can just vote no. Then he won't get his free leave. Remember, all 9 people will have to agree he is free to go.

But the system isn't for people you want to give a free pass to leave. The system is for people you feel are bringing down/ruining the game.

You say you're not raging, and just giving people tips and advice on how to be better? You're barely 1KD yourself, and in the replay YOU supplied, everyone got to see why you get kicked.

Calling people immigrants, downies, and scrubs is not giving advice or "trying your best to win". You also were 3-10 in that game, and spent the entire first half of the game in the jungle farming. Tell me why you think everyone is REQUIRED to listen to you, or endure your wrath of flaming?

Bottom line is the votekick system is there for a plethora of reasons.

Yes, there may be the occasional abuse. But your idea of votekicking without consequences to the person kicked would be abused EVEN MORE.

On top of that, when given your chance to show a replay of the unjust kicking going on, you show a game in which you fed, and flamed most of the game.

Yes, the other team probably voted because they didn't like the fact that you were backdooring. But the reason your team kicked you is because they were tired of the verbal abuse.

100% if you're not calling them immigrants and scrubs all game long, you finish that game without being votekicked.

Again, the problem here is you, not the system. Show some respect, even to people who don't want to play the heroes YOU want them to play, or don't want to get the items YOU want them to get. Sure sometimes people make really bad/stupid decisions. But they paid for the game, and they can build their heroes how they want. You shouldn't have a problem with this in higher level games. You also could find a clan to scrim/in house with, and then you don't have to worry about noob pubs. You said yourself, yuo're 1650ish psr playing 1500-1550psr games. What do you expect?

You really think it would do the community good to take away the consequences of a votekick?

What's to stop people from spamming or griefing if they don't want to play anymore? Then they have a leaver free way of getting out of games.

As I've said in previous posts, I've played over 400 games, and have NEVER been votekicked. I've even called out people on stupid ****. Sometimes not very nicely. But I don't spam and purposely try to annoy everyone in the game. Why would people want to play with people like that? Everyone in the game paid their $30, and if NINE people agree the game would be better off without you, then you're gone, and there's a strike on your record for everyone else in the community to see.

I play no leaver games so leavers AND people who have a higher chance of being kicked out of my game don't get a chance to join. If you're votekicked out of of half the games you play, it's essentially the same thing as having a leaver on your team. If this consistently happens to you, whether it be because of flaming/power outages/griefing, you're marked as a leaver. Essentially you're being flagged as a player who may not make it to the end of the game. I want to know about those people so I don't have to play with them.

There's no reason to change.

[`SunTzu]

i, too, think this is a problem that needs to be fixed. if you havent seen people abuse the vote kick feature you must not play hon at all, or have somehow managed to miss all of the games where this happens.

i was just in a game where i was kicked to make it '4v4'. of course the enemy team votes yes, as it makes our team lose the auto win that 5v4's usually are.

to be completely honest, i think you should be able to appeal kicks. i didnt pay 30$ just to have a bunch of trolls give me leaver % even tho i have NEVER LEFT A GAME in my ENTIRE hon career.

[Gondar]

Thanks. I was tired of arguing with him.

Also about calling people immigrants, if they do not speak English why are they on US servers? I don't hate them for it or anything, but, I will call them immigrants. If they don't like that then that's their fault. I don't give a damn when someone calls me white trash, it's actually quite funny and gives me a good laugh.

Yep. It's their fault they don't like being called immigrants. You called them immigrants and downies before the first wave of creeps had even spawned.

On top of that you called them asstards and scrubs all the while complaining to the other team in all chat about them. You also made fun of andro for getting a bottle and wards with his starting gold when he was mid. He then proceeded to get the first kill on your team, and place more wards. You even called him out for not placing wards fast enough as he placed a second set just after the first expired, and left his lane to buy a 3rd set for you to leave in base cause you were still raging at him.

[`SunTzu]

this problem obviously shouldnt have anything do do with people who are kicked often. the problem is the people who are trying their best to win, only to get kicked because they have some jackasses on their team, and the other team wants to win.

its been argued that it takes nine votes but logically how many does it really take?

if the other team wants to win they'll vote you for sure. thats 5 votes already. the other four are your teammates.

so what if you are losing and you are the scapegoat? what then? you just get kicked every once and awhile? people have bad games we all have. theres just far to many trolls in this game for this to be left unchecked.

what if they deleted one kick from your stats / month. i think that would be an excellent fix to this problem, especially since it will make people with high leaver % want to STAY in games and cooperate instead of being retarded for fear that they wont be able to join no leaver games again.

and also.. when you are kicked. this should count as a loss until it is expunged from your record via the delete 1 kick / month thing i just suggested.

[Gondar]

i, too, think this is a problem that needs to be fixed. if you havent seen people abuse the vote kick feature you must not play hon at all, or have somehow managed to miss all of the games where this happens.

i was just in a game where i was kicked to make it '4v4'. of course the enemy team votes yes, as it makes our team lose the auto win that 5v4's usually are.

to be completely honest, i think you should be able to appeal kicks. i didnt pay 30$ just to have a bunch of trolls give me leaver % even tho i have NEVER LEFT A GAME in my ENTIRE hon career.

As I said, I'm not denying there is abuse. I'm simply saying removing the consequences of votekicks would lead to MORE abuse.

I've played HUNDREDs of games. And yes of course the other team would vote yes to kick someone to even at 4v4, but I have never been on a team that would kick their own teammate to lose the auto win that 5v4's usually are.

I've been on both ends of 5v4s and never seen a succesful vote to try and even it. Sometimes you get a remake if someone leaves off the bat, but usually the other team won't even give you that.

You can't honestly say that this 5v4 kicking to even is becoming an epidemic to the point that we must redo the system cause you've been kicked once to even out a game? Think of all the times you've kicked feeders and griefers. Would you take all those back to have your 1 leave back?

Other than that, I do agree with you that there should be an appeal system for cases like the one you explained. But as I said, it simply doesn't happen often enough to change the way the votekick system works. If your team wants to lose the man advantage... well that just doesn't happen very often.

[Gondar]

this problem obviously shouldnt have anything do do with people who are kicked often. the problem is the people who are trying their best to win, only to get kicked because they have some jackasses on their team, and the other team wants to win.

its been argued that it takes nine votes but logically how many does it really take?

if the other team wants to win they'll vote you for sure. thats 5 votes already. the other four are your teammates.

so what if you are losing and you are the scapegoat? what then? you just get kicked every once and awhile? people have bad games we all have. theres just far to many trolls in this game for this to be left unchecked.

what if they deleted one kick from your stats / month. i think that would be an excellent fix to this problem, especially since it will make people with high leaver % want to STAY in games and cooperate instead of being retarded for fear that they wont be able to join no leaver games again.

and also.. when you are kicked. this should count as a loss until it is expunged from your record via the delete 1 kick / month thing i just suggested.

You have 1 disconnect in 60 games. That's not a really big problem for you, considering you seem to be the type of person who doesn't leave, or piss off their team to the point that they'll be kicked. So you've named 1 specific case that happened that IS abuse. But I can give you 50 flamers and griefers I've seen kicked for the right reasons, and the system can't be changed to benefit them to strike 1 disconnect off your record. Like I said, if you could send in the replay, and get it striked for being abuse like that, sure. But does your 1 disconnect really make you want to abolish the leaver vote kick system?

[`SunTzu]

iuno gondar. ive been very good about not leaving games and not getting kicked because i like it when my stats say 0% leave.

another problem is that sometimes greifers arent being kicked because the team knows that they are better left in the game ( a team that is fighting amongst themselves is far less likely to win than a team who isnt ). i see what you mean about the other people that ive kicked, thats a good point. i just want my perfect stats back XD

oh. and i fully support the vote kick feature.. my only spiff is that there is no way to appeal kicks that are wrongfully done. i think were on the same page.

[Gondar]

iuno gondar. ive been very good about not leaving games and not getting kicked because i like it when my stats say 0% leave.

another problem is that sometimes greifers arent being kicked because the team knows that they are better left in the game ( a team that is fighting amongst themselves is far less likely to win than a team who isnt ). i see what you mean about the other people that ive kicked, thats a good point. i just want my perfect stats back XD

oh. and i fully support the vote kick feature.. my only spiff is that there is no way to appeal kicks that are wrongfully done. i think were on the same page.

As far as griefers who aren't being kicked because the team knows they are better left in the game, that really has no relevance to this thread. Removing the leaver tag, and leaving the votekick system in place would still result in those people not being kicked by the other team.

As far as your leaver %, I know what you mean. Not only do you pride yourself on the 0% leave, but you also want to save your disconnects for legitimate reasons like power outages. But hey, **** happens, and I would be very surprised if you came back and said that same situation happened to you again, as RARELY do players give up their man advantage in a 5v4 game.

If this thread was a poll asking whether there should be an appeal system for votekicks to remove the leaver tag because of abuse, 100% it would have my vote. But the idea that the system should remove the leaver tag all together from all votekicks? It's ludicrous and stupid. It completely removes the punishment from the majority of votekicks that happen for legitimate reasons.

Let me put this another way:

Every year a few people are wrongfully accused, convicted and placed in jail for a crime they didn't commit. The way Rasta would fix this problem is by putting no one in jail. In his mind that way no one would be wrongfully accused. But what about the mass majority of properly convicted felons who DESERVE to be in jail? Under Rasta's system, they go free too.

Does that make sense?

It truly surprises me at the amount of people who are voting yes. They can't be fully thinking it through.

If we can all agree that the majority of the time people are being votekicked for legitimate reasons, those people should be branded as leavers if they are consistently being votekicked. The idea is that if you happen to be a victim of an abusive vote kick, that happens once in a blue moon. But the greifers/feeders/flamers, who make a habit of being vote kicked, they are the ONLY ones who suffer the consequences of being branded a leaver, and not being able to join MM and no leaver games.

[Rasta]

oh. and i fully support the vote kick feature.. my only spiff is that there is no way to appeal kicks that are wrongfully done. i think were on the same page.

This is pretty much what I am saying. Giving the griefer a leave will not change anything.

I think my argument is a compromise. For those who are kicked a lot it's good. For those who are new and get kicked it's good. For greifing it doesnt matter if we are getting player report.

[`SunTzu]

imma go ahead and make a misc suggestion about appealing kicks. you guys should vote in it :D

[Gondar]

This is pretty much what I am saying. Giving the griefer a leave will not change anything.

I think my argument is a compromise. For those who are kicked a lot it's good. For those who are new and get kicked it's good. For greifing it doesnt matter if we are getting player report.

No what you are saying, and this is word for word:

"Vote-kick should not make you a leaver, it is plain wrong"
"Votekick is fine, those leavers and ragers are all the same."

That's black and white. If votekick can't make you a leaver, then the people who are legitimately votekicked suffer no consequences, other then they're not in that game any more, but can immediately hop into another game. This would also create the problem of people TRYING to get votekicked to be able to leave games WITHOUT being branded as a leaver.

Do you not see that? You have not responded to ANY of the reasons I've presented as to why this whole idea is completely flawed.

"For those who are kicked a lot it's good." Why should they change the system to benefit people who are being kicked a lot? If you're being kicked a lot you're doing something wrong. Most players don't get kicked a lot.

An abuse reporting system that tron is mentioning is much more reasonable and if you create that poll, you have my vote.

[resp]

T-up, this way if a team decides that going 4v5 is better, the guy that simply plays bad/poorly wont be punished with a leave % since he isnt a leaver, he is just bad but the team thinks 4v5 will have more chances...
just give him a loss, no matter if his team manages to win after his kick -> this will balance things out: + leave % but a possible win because u are bad turned into: no leave % but a sure loss for being bad. logic
what happens if the guy is intentionally ruining the game? report feature coming soon, that will get him 2 punishes: a loss and then w/e S2 decides to punish him with(tempban, leave%, permaban, psr penalty, etc)

edit:
i think what i suggested is FAR more reasonable than the current abusing system.

i was just in a game where i was kicked to make it '4v4'. of course the enemy team votes yes, as it makes our team lose the auto win that 5v4's usually are.
you want to win the game and not concede at min 20
your team is full of scrubs that ruin the game and then votekick you when you reach your limits and start to rage (and i mean for real when its full of idiots, not when YOU THINK they are idiots, sometimes it really happens)
the oposing team will always aprove a kick if they are getting dominated and a 5v4 would suit them(or the quoted scenario)
sure, give them a loss, or maybe divide leave % into leave/kicked%, im not against punishing kicked players, but not with leave % when the kick had NOTHING to do with the guy being a leaver and leave% counts in so many aspects of the game. make leave% be leave%, not teamdoesntlikeme% ...

[Rasta]

T-up, this way if a team decides that going 4v5 is better, the guy that simply plays bad/poorly wont be punished with a leave % since he isnt a leaver, he is just bad but the team thinks 4v5 will have more chances...
just give him a loss, no matter if his team manages to win after his kick -> this will balance things out: + leave % but a possible win because u are bad turned into: no leave % but a sure loss for being bad. logic
what happens if the guy is intentionally ruining the game? report feature coming soon, that will get him 2 punishes: a loss and then w/e S2 decides to punish him with(tempban, leave%, permaban, psr penalty, etc)

Ye, I feel you.

Lots of players are spiteful towards people who don't know waht they are doing, and call them downies/tards and feel gratified for 'punishing' them with a leave %.

[Gondar]

you want to win the game and not concede at min 20
your team is full of scrubs that ruin the game and then votekick you when you reach your limits and start to rage (and i mean for real when its full of idiots, not when YOU THINK they are idiots, sometimes it really happens)
the oposing team will always aprove a kick if they are getting dominated and a 5v4 would suit them(or the quoted scenario)
sure, give them a loss, or maybe divide leave % into leave/kicked%, im not against punishing kicked players, but not with leave % when the kick had NOTHING to do with the guy being a leaver and leave% counts in so many aspects of the game. make leave% be leave%, not teamdoesntlikeme% ...

Sure, I would think it's reasonable to label it kick % instead of leaver %, but they are essentially the same thing. If you're being kicked you're not staying until the end of the game. You're talking about another single case in which someone is kicked for the wrong reason. But people are making this out to be an epidemic. Most of the time people are kicked for good reasons, and only those people will be branded a leaver when they make a habit of being kicked. Being kicked once or twice due to abuse isn't going to hurt your account. If you're being kicked every 5th game, then there's something else going on. It's not people abusing the kick system. For some reason people don't want you in the game. Find out what that is. Are you a douche? Are you playing in games that are above your level of play? Chances are it's one of those, and they can both be fixed.

It only forces the douches and baddies to play some pub games PROPERLY to get their leave/kick% to where it should be.

Could there be a reform to the kick system? Maybe.

Should it be done by removing the leaver mark on your account, and in doing so, all of the consequences of the kick? Definitely not.

[Ifix]

3866734
nuff said,this is the reason why vote kick can be pretty retarded.
(p.s by no way amazing play,but pretty solid as far as i know,ended up getting a doubletap in there base,as the tree went down,they went HEH FOR FUN MATES "kicks me" ended up getting a disconnect because of kids.

[NinjaPants]

Please be reminded of the rules.

[Rasta]

Please be reminded of the rules.

Awww man.. I could have gotten at least 5 pages out of him.. W/e I will pay closer attention to the rules next time.

[Gondar]

3866734
nuff said,this is the reason why vote kick can be pretty retarded.
(p.s by no way amazing play,but pretty solid as far as i know,ended up getting a doubletap in there base,as the tree went down,they went HEH FOR FUN MATES "kicks me" ended up getting a disconnect because of kids.

I watched that replay, and that is retarded. You didn't deserve to be kicked.

But I'll repeat again, this is 1 case. It is not an epidemic. More often than not people get kicked for the right reasons.

Rasta's suggestion of removing leaves from kicks would completely take away the consequences for being kicked for those legitimate reasons.

I agree there should be some form or reform. Like an appeal system, whether through the community or mods, for cases like the one you presented.

But have you not been in games where people are griefing? Rasta admitted to having an account where he would join games, buy a tablet, and use nymph to tele his team into the base and push them into the fountain. Now, under his revised system you could kick him, but he could just join another game right away and do it again, with no consequences, and with hosts not being able to see that he is that kind of player.

Yes, there is abuse. Yes, I agree that there should be some sort of review process. But no, taking away the leaver stat from it does not make sense, and does more harm than good.

No one has said the kick system is perfect. Only that there would be MUCH more abuse in this proposed system where griefers thrive.

[Rasta]

I watched that replay, and that is retarded. You didn't deserve to be kicked.

But I'll repeat again, this is 1 case. It is not an epidemic. More often than not people get kicked for the right reasons.



I hate to say this but this is a false fact.

If I was in your game Gondar, and I excessively raged at our team, would you kick me?

And the only reason I griefed with :nymp: because it trolls people successfully. If public 1400 PSR -EM pro games were not srs bsns, then I wouldnt have to do it.

So picking :nymp: and trolling scrubs is a good thing. If they have no balls they will get trolled and they deserve it. If they have balls they will find it hilarious and my point would have been made. So far most 1400 PSR EM PROS have absolutely no balls.

[Gondar]

I hate to say this but this is a false fact.

If I was in your game Gondar, and I excessively raged at our team, would you kick me?

And the only reason I griefed with :nymp: because it trolls people successfully. If public 1400 PSR -EM pro games were not srs bsns, then I wouldnt have to do it.

So picking :nymp: and trolling scrubs is a good thing. If they have no balls they will get trolled and they deserve it. If they have balls they will find it hilarious and my point would have been made. So far most 1400 PSR EM PROS have absolutely no balls.

You were raging at my team, why would the other team kick you? If you're raging to the point that the only other 9 people in the game don't want you there, you don't deserve to be there.

Then you go on to say only people with balls appreciate griefing? How does that make any sense? Some baddies can only get into 1400psr games, and are in there to learn, and PLAY the game. They don't "deserve" to have a griefer in their game because they're not very good. That's why they're in 1400psr games in the first place. You say if people don't find it funny then they deserve it? Listen to yourself. You just make 0 sense, and you make it clearer and clearer why you have such a hard time accepting the fact people don't want to play with you.

It's also the reason that you could have 80% of the vote in this pole and you won't see any change to the kick system as far as not having consequences for a kick. It just makes 0 logical sense. But I can see logic is something that eludes you, so let's just leave it at that. You're hopeless.

Enjoy griefing 1400psr games while you still can. I've tried my hardest to explain the errors of your ways to you, but my charity has come to an end.

[Rasta]

You were raging at my team, why would the other team kick you?


Rofl?

[SlayerBoner]

I've played maaaaaany games and I can say from experience that if someone gets kicked they usually really deserve it (usually ruining for their team or afking).

The whole "newbie" example; do tutorial & join low-skill games. Problem solved.

Also, you forgot to mention those who are going to abuse getting kicked because they have to go do something else, in order to not get a leave registered.

It's fine the way it is.

[Gondar]

I've played maaaaaany games and I can say from experience that if someone gets kicked they usually really deserve it (usually ruining for their team or afking).

The whole "newbie" example; do tutorial & join low-skill games. Problem solved.

Also, you forgot to mention those who are going to abuse getting kicked because they have to go do something else, in order to not get a leave registered.

It's fine the way it is.

I've said this multiple times. It just doesn't sink in. What do you really expect though, if you had seen some of his posts that got deleted you would have seen he wants the leaver status removed so he can abuse the kick system.

[Gondar]

Rofl?

? let's take last game for example. You're 3-10 and team chatting your typical flaming bs. Why would the other team kick you? You're backdooring and they don't like it?

The other team doesn't usually kick feeders for the other team. Oh, I forgot, you all chat your flame to everyone, and neither team wants you in the game. My mistake.

[Rasta]

Also, you forgot to mention those who are going to abuse getting kicked because they have to go do something else, in order to not get a leave registered.


How is it anything but fair if every player in the game agrees that if he really has to go then go ahead?

Now on the other hand if he greifs/rages till hes kicked.. /ignore him scrubs.



The other team doesn't usually kick feeders for the other team. Oh, I forgot, you all chat your flame to everyone, and neither team wants you in the game. My mistake.

If no one wants me in the game because of their opinions of me, it does not mean I am a leaver. They can /ignore me
/thread.

[Gondar]

How is it anything but fair if every player in the game agrees that if he really has to go then go ahead?

Now on the other hand if he greifs/rages till hes kicked.. /ignore him scrubs.



If no one wants me in the game because of their opinions of me, it does not mean I am a leaver. They can /ignore me
/thread.

If someone has to go in the middle of a game for a legitimate reason, then they should leave. Leaving a couple times for emergencies doesn't hurt your account. But if someone hops in a game 20 minutes before work everyday and has to leave, and makes a habit of it, then it becomes a problem for them. Just the way it should be. In dota everyone used to say, don't join unless you have at least an hour. In HoN it's not usually as long, but the idea is the same. If you join a game you should make sure you have the time to finish it, out of respect for your teammates. Occasional things come up, but the leaver threshold lets you get away with that a few times. It's when you make a habit of it that it becomes a problem.

Even if people agreed that you should be allowed to "let" someone leave, if they really had to go by kicking them and them not getting leaver, there would be abuse by griefers, and people who pretend they have a legit reason, just to get out of getting a leaver tag.

A few people have brought up certain circumstances where it would be nice to have not gotten a leave mark, like abusive kicks, or legit reasons to leave. But you still have to look at the big picture of the people who deserve the kicks. You can't have it both ways. The system leaves a threshold for the occasional necessary leave, or the occasional abusive kick.

You can't /ignore a griefer, or a feeder.

And yes, if no one wants you in the game, and you are consistently kicked, you are a leaver. Cause chances are you won't make it to the end of the game.

If you're consistently not making it to the end of the game you're a leaver. Whether you're leaving or others are making you leave.

[Rasta]

If someone has to go in the middle of a game for a legitimate reason, then they should leave. Leaving a couple times for emergencies doesn't hurt your account. But if someone hops in a game 20 minutes before work everyday and has to leave, and makes a habit of it, then it becomes a problem for them. Just the way it should be. In dota everyone used to say, don't join unless you have at least an hour. In HoN it's not usually as long, but the idea is the same. If you join a game you should make sure you have the time to finish it, out of respect for your teammates. Occasional things come up, but the leaver threshold lets you get away with that a few times. It's when you make a habit of it that it becomes a problem.

Even if people agreed that you should be allowed to "let" someone leave, if they really had to go by kicking them and them not getting leaver, there would be abuse by griefers, and people who pretend they have a legit reason, just to get out of getting a leaver tag.

A few people have brought up certain circumstances where it would be nice to have not gotten a leave mark, like abusive kicks, or legit reasons to leave. But you still have to look at the big picture of the people who deserve the kicks. You can't have it both ways. The system leaves a threshold for the occasional necessary leave, or the occasional abusive kick.

You can't /ignore a griefer, or a feeder.

And yes, if no one wants you in the game, and you are consistently kicked, you are a leaver. Cause chances are you won't make it to the end of the game.

If you're consistently not making it to the end of the game you're a leaver. Whether you're leaving or others are making you leave.

You seem to have some bias towards leavers in dota. I was a proud leaver.

If 9 other people agree that you are free to go then that is perfectly fine. If you got a problem with that then something is wrong with you, because every single player in that game agreed that he was free to go. If it happens in your game just vote no. You sound like the 'leaverpolice', going around telling people they can't leave pubs cuz it's srs bsns.

People do not deserve kicks period. Sure a useless noob is in my 1400 psr game, so we must kick him!!!!!!1!. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

[Gondar]

You seem to have some bias towards leavers in dota. I was a proud leaver.

***That doesn't surprise me at all. Do you know what bias means? Cause it doesn't make any sense the way you used it. How do I have a bias towards leavers?***

If 9 other people agree that you are free to go then that is perfectly fine. If you got a problem with that then something is wrong with you, because every single player in that game agreed that he was free to go. If it happens in your game just vote no. You sound like the 'leaverpolice', going around telling people they can't leave pubs cuz it's srs bsns.

***But if 9 people agree the game's better off without you that's not fine?***

People do not deserve kicks period. Sure a useless noob is in my 1400 psr game, so we must kick him!!!!!!1!. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-




You're the only one who doesn't think some people deserve to be kicked. Why do you think dota had a mod for it, and HoN implemented it's own system for kicking people. Want to know why you don't think people deserve to be kicked? BECAUSE YOU'RE THE ONE BEING KICKED ALL THE TIME. Big surprise there, I guess you're not biased. Griefiing ruins games for the people who paid good money to play it to win, and to (try to) play properly. For someone who claims to care to much about their stats, and says "I PLAY TO WIN!" how come you don't think a griefer should be kicked? Use your own griefing method. If you were in a serious game, and let's pretend you even had friends you were playing with, and someone was just using nymph to tele and kill you in the fountain, you don't think that person should be kicked? You don't think there should be SOME sort of consequence for it?

[Rasta]

If you were in a serious game

Pubs is serious games :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp::ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp::ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :legi:

[NeRo`]

there is 1 point that justifies the votekick system itself:

no one has to add u to the banlist, to avoid playing with u

[torfteufel]

im slowly drifting towards "the kick feature is a bunch of crap" and we should get rid of it altogether.

i loved hosting dota games with ghost++ and being empowered to kick/ban/mute whoever i felt should get some. especially the mute was awesome! you, as a host, could mute one player entirely, so there was no way he could chat with anyone in the game at all. and after 5 mins you can unmute him again and see if he got the lesson. worked surpisingly well...like sticking a child having a tantrum in his room until he gets over it :D

having one entrusted (did i just made up that word?) person with referee status as a super visor works well. having 2 5ppl fractions with opoosed motivation does not :(

get rid of the kick feature we have now - its no working well, in fact it sucks

not voted as i believe this would be just effect curing while leaving the origin of the problem untouched

[crtzz]

Getting kicked should not make one a leaver. Here is an example why.

This happened me today: I was playing my second time with :andr: and I was kind of a carry for my team with stats 6/2/10 or something like that. We were making the last push for victory because the other team just wouldn't get concede passed. We have a big team fight and I half accidentally get two kills with auto-attacking. Even thought the other frag was completely mine, swapped him, stunned him etc. After the fight, I was blamed for last hitting and I got kicked. The one who accused me and started the vote had died a few times too much and was angry for a good reason. Ofc. the enemy team passed the vote right away because then they could have a chance 5on4. I don't whine, I don't flame, I don't usually even write anything besides calling misses. So it wasn't because of anything else.

Now I'm one step closer getting a leaver status because of auto-attacking enemy heroes.

I don't know what should be done to the system but this should not happen.

[Gondar]

Getting kicked should not make one a leaver. Here is an example why.

This happened me today: I was playing my second time with :andr: and I was kind of a carry for my team with stats 6/2/10 or something like that. We were making the last push for victory because the other team just wouldn't get concede passed. We have a big team fight and I half accidentally get two kills with auto-attacking. Even thought the other frag was completely mine, swapped him, stunned him etc. After the fight, I was blamed for last hitting and I got kicked. The one who accused me and started the vote had died a few times too much and was angry for a good reason. Ofc. the enemy team passed the vote right away because then they could have a chance 5on4. I don't whine, I don't flame, I don't usually even write anything besides calling misses. So it wasn't because of anything else.

Now I'm one step closer getting a leaver status because of auto-attacking enemy heroes.

I don't know what should be done to the system but this should not happen.

Appeal system. Again, like anyone else who brings up 1 case of abuse, would you say you've seen 10 kicks for the right reason before you see someone abuse it like this.

[Gondar]

Pubs is serious games :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp::ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp::ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :ramp: :legi:

Again, avoiding the real question, big surprise. Serious, as in, you don't want some jackass teleing you into the fountain because you're playing the game to win. You know, like you posted a dozen times in your thread "I PLAY WIIIIIIN!!!!!!". Weren't those pubs? Yep. Now answer the question, instead of avoiding it because your argument holds no water.

[Gondar]

im slowly drifting towards "the kick feature is a bunch of crap" and we should get rid of it altogether.

i loved hosting dota games with ghost++ and being empowered to kick/ban/mute whoever i felt should get some. especially the mute was awesome! you, as a host, could mute one player entirely, so there was no way he could chat with anyone in the game at all. and after 5 mins you can unmute him again and see if he got the lesson. worked surpisingly well...like sticking a child having a tantrum in his room until he gets over it :D

having one entrusted (did i just made up that word?) person with referee status as a super visor works well. having 2 5ppl fractions with opoosed motivation does not :(

get rid of the kick feature we have now - its no working well, in fact it sucks

not voted as i believe this would be just effect curing while leaving the origin of the problem untouched

Ahhh... so you think instead of it being a democratic vote to kick someone it should be a dictatorship. Good call.

Wait...

[torfteufel]

Ahhh... so you think instead of it being a democratic vote to kick someone it should be a dictatorship. Good call.

Wait...

it works REALLY well if I am the dictator :D tried it for months/years in dota. just trust me on this one ;)
(although i doubt it is even possible with ranked servers anyway...)

note that i have never ever experienced a kick that was not justified in HoN and i am playing since the closed beta. also note that i NEVER vote in an ongoing vote kick if no specific reason is stated and the reason actually convinces me. and noone should ever vote to kick s.o. without having a reason explained.

also note that i just wanted to put Rasta on my banlist (obviously you dont want to play a TEAM game with someone having no social skills whatsoever) and guess what:

he was already on there :D

voted no because getting kicked w/o being punished is exploitable

its a ****ing game (meaning its SOLE purpose is having fun, if one person spoils the fun for 9 others, hell, get rid of him already !!!)

@gondar: you know you can multiquote? saves you from posting serveral posts in a row...(having the risk noone is reading them cause too long)

[Rasta]

Appeal system. Again, like anyone else who brings up 1 case of abuse, would you say you've seen 10 kicks for the right reason before you see someone abuse it like this.

aaaand when over 500 people a day bring up an appeal?

The point is, when someone has no social skills you /ignore.

[Gondar]

aaaand when over 500 people a day bring up an appeal?

The point is, when someone has no social skills you /ignore.

Community appeal requiring a certain amount of votes.

and for the last time, you can't /ignore a griefer. Get that through your head and answer my question from above.

[Rasta]

Giving the greifer a leave will not stop him from greifing.

If leave % doesn't reflect what it really is it won't matter as much. People getting kicked for stupid reasons= people realizing leaver % doesn't mean shitt.

[Gondar]

Giving the greifer a leave will not stop him from greifing.

If leave % doesn't reflect what it really is it won't matter as much. People getting kicked for stupid reasons= people realizing leaver % doesn't mean shitt.

Sometimes I wonder if you're handicapped.

Giving him leave will give him a leave. If he keeps doing it, he becomes a leaver, and can't join MM or no leaver games. That's good enough for me. Cause it means I can play no leaver games without people who make a habit of griefing.

[YawningAngel]

Case 4:
Idiot joins my game and ruins it. He should be punished as much as is humanly possible. In fact, being kicked should give 2 leaves for this precise reason.

[netygraph]

Great job Gondor trying to hammer some sense into this guy.

[Gondar]

Great job Gondor trying to hammer some sense into this guy.

Thank you. It's like trying to reason with a retarded 6 year old. You should have seen the posts that were deleted. In his thread on the main board about him being the most kicked account (something he was proud of until he couldn't join games anymore) he was talking about how "I PLAY TO WIN ****ING SCRUBS!" spewing that out every second post, then he admitted to having accounts with 30% leave and playing pure grief games where he would only pick nymph to tele his teammates into the enemy base and use a tablet to push them in the fountain. Then he wonders why we need kicks and stats to mark leavers/griefers.

[`SunTzu]

k so .. i voted yes back in the day and.. now i really wish i hadnt.

for this simple question destroys your entire arguement.

if there is no penalty for being kicked whats to stop people from doing things to get them kicked in the first place?

until you can logically answer this question there isnt a single person at S2 who will consider this, let alone the community.

@ gondar: i dont think this kid will ever change his thinking. hes been told over and over why this idea is rediculous, and he still is SURE he is right. furthering this discussion only bumps his thread. lets just let the numbers speak for themselves.

[Rasta]

k so .. i voted yes back in the day and.. now i really wish i hadnt.

for this simple question destroys your entire arguement.

if there is no penalty for being kicked whats to stop people from doing things to get them kicked in the first place?



I'm not saying there shouldn't be a penalty. I'm perfectly fine with have a vote-kick %.

What I'm saying is that kicking and leaving are 2 different things. Now I made this argument under the impression that /report player would be implemented within the next patch. Now I know greifing :nymp: still could happen, but, honestly, the people who already greif constantly don't really give a shitt about their leave %. The problem is that people who do not greif and are kicked because their team doesn't like them now have to paly with :nymp: grefiers.

[Rasta]

Thank you. It's like trying to reason with a retarded 6 year old. You should have seen the posts that were deleted. In his thread on the main board about him being the most kicked account (something he was proud of until he couldn't join games anymore) he was talking about how "I PLAY TO WIN ****ING SCRUBS!" spewing that out every second post, then he admitted to having accounts with 30% leave and playing pure grief games where he would only pick nymph to tele his teammates into the enemy base and use a tablet to push them in the fountain. Then he wonders why we need kicks and stats to mark leavers/griefers.

Someone got trolled super hard in my 12 page qq thread.

OWNED.

[Gondar]

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a penalty. I'm perfectly fine with have a vote-kick %.

What I'm saying is that kicking and leaving are 2 different things. Now I made this argument under the impression that /report player would be implemented within the next patch. Now I know greifing :nymp: still could happen, but, honestly, the people who already greif constantly don't really give a shitt about their leave %. The problem is that people who do not greif and are kicked because their team doesn't like them now have to paly with :nymp: grefiers.

Just marking a kick % does what exactly, if it doesn't prevent you from getting into certain elements of the game? We can already see beside the leaver count how many are from kicks, so really you're suggesting what? That they show it twice in the stats page? Getting kicked and a leave really aren't 2 different things. A leaver % shows you the chances of that player not making it to the end of the game, whether through leaving or kicking. If I join a game, I want all 5 members of my team there until the end. If anything I'd prefer a leaver over someone who is going to end up being kicked for WHATEVER reason. So again, your argument holds no weight. Having a kick percentage means nothing if it doesn't prevent you from doing something. In this case, those griefers can "not care about their leaver %" all they want. They still can't get into MM games and no leaver games. THAT IS THE POINT THAT YOU FAIL TO UNDERSTAND. READ.


Someone got trolled super hard in my 12 page qq thread.

OWNED.

By QQ thread you mean the thread you were crying about how unfair it is everyone keeps kicking you? I didn't participate in it until it was a few pages deep, and even then I was only on about 2-3 pages of the entire thing, but hey, you must be used to being wrong by now. But ya, I guess it was me getting "OWNED" when everyone chimed in to tell you you're now on their banlist, and to make fun of you. That really showed me...

If "trolling" people to get them to talk to you on the internet is the highlight of your day, I pity you.

[Rasta]

If "trolling" people to get them to talk to you on the internet is the highlight of your day, I pity you.

This is sooooo worth my 10th temporary ban.

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/successful_troll.jpg

[KINGJ]

I'll direct you guys to my thread about a RIDICULOUS kick, my first ever.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=136911

[Gondar]

I'll direct you guys to my thread about a RIDICULOUS kick, my first ever.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=136911

Yep that's abuse. But like I say to everyone else. 9/10 kicks are for the right reasons are they not? Taking away the leaver part of a kick only empowers griefers, flamers, and general douches.

[Rasta]

Yep that's abuse. But like I say to everyone else. 9/10 kicks are for the right reasons are they not? Taking away the leaver part of a kick only empowers griefers, flamers, and general douches.

If someone really wants to greif you nothing is going to stop them from joining a game with a friend so they don't get kicked.

Now, since there are many douches online, what happens when 9 of them join a game? you get kicked

[Gondar]

If someone really wants to greif you nothing is going to stop them from joining a game with a friend so they don't get kicked.

Now, since there are many douches online, what happens when 9 of them join a game? you get kicked

Have you ever seen a game with 9 griefers? Are you talking a once in a lifetime thing here? Should we change the system cause there might, in the future, a game with 9 griefers? Even so, with 9 griefers that means they're griefing each other. 5 would have to be on the same team.

I think we've heard enough "what if"s and "well this one time"s. The point of the kick system is for what happens the majority of the time. Which is you have a bad apple. Most people just want to play the game.

I think we can all agree, you're not most people.

Keep the excuses coming though, I'm having a great time shutting them down.

[torfteufel]

If someone really wants to greif you nothing is going to stop them from joining a game with a friend so they don't get kicked.

Now, since there are many douches online, what happens when 9 of them join a game? you get kicked

seeing a game with 9 griefers would be soooo epic! id love to see a replay from that...:D

actually having a life it is hard to believe that people join a server in pairs so that one of them (or both) can waste 10 peopls time. that is pretty fascinating and deserves scientific research (here is your anthropology thesis topic!). must be the sadest bunch on the interwebs...
lucky me i would instantly leave such a game and have a good time elsewhere and it is absolutely no problem thx to the leaver %.

omg the system works!

/close thread

[Rasta]

I think we can all agree, you're not most people.



Votes in favor 92
Votes against 62

[Gondar]

Votes in favor 92
Votes against 62

Good reasons brought up to change the system: 0.

Enough said.

I also said most people play the game to play it properly, not to grief like you. That has nothing to do with this poll. Nice way to take a quote out of context. But hey, if you can't win an argument using wit, you might as well make **** up right?

How about we just wait to see if they change the system for you to declare the winner. I don't care how many griefers you can get to vote in a poll. We've already seen someone post wishing they could take their vote back. If people were actually informed the poll would like much differently. Most people won't read all 4 pages of this thread and will only read your biased 3 cases in your first post. You can't only explain one side of the story, and then ask for a fair assessment of the situation. As many people have pointed out, a couple cases doesn't dismiss the majority of reasons people are legitimately kicked. But I can't expect you to understand this, with you bring at a grade 4 reading level, this must be way over your head.

Much smarter people are behind the makings of this game. They've actually taken some of the issues I've brought up into account.

Remember, George W. was voted into office. Just because you win a poll, doesn't mean it was a good idea.

Now how about you go ahead and answer any of the questions I've asked about your flawed system, instead of continuing to hide behind your childish trolling?

[Rasta]

They've actually taken some of the issues I've brought up into account.


I troll you because you act too big for your boots and have 1500 psr.

[SinisterMJ]

I think both sides have a point, because technically you are not leaver, your team made you leave (by passing the vote).

And interestingly enough most kick votes I have seen where against some player who was most of the time unintentionally feeding. I mean, what should a thunderbringer do, if a same level Swiftblade jumps him? He'll die, no matter what. The intentional feeders, those who run into the opponents, they are _NEVER_ kicked. I have had them twice on my side, they just run stupidly into the enemy, doing nothing and being taken down. Why would the enemy team kick him? He's feeding on purpose, that's good for them. But the only players who really deserve a kick are (this is important: intentional) feeders and flamers. Flamers sometimes do get kicked, I think a kick is fine, but no leave, since he helped the team, just pissed them off. Whereas the intentional feeder, he really should get 2 leaves to his account or so.

[Zogar]

Voting Yes. Sure, vote kick has nothing to do with intentionally leaving a game.
As to those who say that kicks are always deserved, I'm sure I could find a reason to kick anyone in any game. Just need to find the slightest mistake they can make (and everyone does at least one in a game, even pros), then say "OMG ****ING NOOB I KICK YOU, YOUR KICK IS DESERVED, YOU FAILED TO LAST HIT ONE CREEP FFS GO DELETE THE GAME". I'm exaggerating, but you see the point.

[DrFappo]

I was just kicked out of a game for not sharing courier. My courier I do whatever I want with it.

[Gondar]

I troll you because you act too big for your boots and have 1500 psr.

Or I'm bringing up the flaws in your system, and you just repeatedly come back with trolling garbage instead of adding to the discussion, or answering ANY of the concerns or your proposed system. How has anything I've said been "acting too big for my boots"? I'm talking about flaws in your system, not my skill.

Try again. This time try answering a question (since again you failed to)


Voting Yes. Sure, vote kick has nothing to do with intentionally leaving a game.
As to those who say that kicks are always deserved, I'm sure I could find a reason to kick anyone in any game. Just need to find the slightest mistake they can make (and everyone does at least one in a game, even pros), then say "OMG ****ING NOOB I KICK YOU, YOUR KICK IS DESERVED, YOU FAILED TO LAST HIT ONE CREEP FFS GO DELETE THE GAME". I'm exaggerating, but you see the point.

Who has ever said they are always deserved? Everyone has admitted that there is abuse of the current system. But, there's no denying that removing the leaver % of kick takes away the consequence of the kick. If someone is griefing, you think they really care if they kicked out of that game, when they can just join another and start all over again?

Again, with the current system, is some is a repeat offender then they will be flagged and not able to join MM and no leaver games. When you pay $30, that will make you think twice before you decide you'd like you to grief every second game you're in.

That's not even taking into account the people who have to leave for something legit. Those people wouldn't just say "sorry guys something came up" and leave. They would try to do something to get kicked instead. Because the consequences would be less severe for flamers/griefers/intentional feeders. Does that make sense.

Again, this poll specifically states that the leaver mark should be removed, making no amendments to the system to patch this serious flaw in the proposed system.

I am all for reform, but this is the stupidest way imaginable. It would create more abuse then there already is.

There was 0 thought put into the proposal, and that's pretty obvious when Rasta has been brought up these issues, and has failed to come back with any answers.

Who knows, maybe S2 will take griefing very seriously with its new banning system, and kicks will be filled with a report instead. But that's a consequence at least.

[ZeroHonor]

Case 1
Agree noone should be kicked for being bad, that is the whole porpuse of the statssystem... If you never want to play with a specific player again then Ban him... if you just kick bads, they never get better... Tell them to play no stats for a while...

Case 2
Only kick if rules are broken, if no Backdoor havn't been aggreed before match, the no kick... that simple...

Case 3
Kick tha bastard and get him a leave... Some people gets an amasing e-peen when behind a monitor... there is nothing they wount say to hurt other people, and some people goes to far... Irl this doesn't happen as much, beacuse sooner or later the person gets his ass kicked, however online he can get away with anything... I belive in kicking if a person is either:

Flaming to an extream extend or being a real prick towards the other players, by constant kick he might lean to speak to others with respect..

Whining and jumping behind pool for the rest of the game, that is just like leaving...

I do beleave if someone is a prick he deserves to get kicked and get a leave, that is the purpose of the kick system... same goes when someone is practally leaving by standing in pool qq'ing

[Gondar]

I think both sides have a point, because technically you are not leaver, your team made you leave (by passing the vote).


I've talked about this theory before, and technically, you are a leaver. A leaver is someone who is not going to stay until the end of the game.

If I join a team, I don't care if they're going to leave on their own, or be forced to leave. If anything, I'd prefer someone who leaves on their own, over someone who is going to do something (griefing/intentional feeding) that will make everyone want to remove them. Either way, your team is now playing a man down. At least the self leaver is just leaving, and not hurting your team twice by griefing and then leaving you a man down.

Why should it matter how they leave? The bottom line is, having a person with a higher leave percentage, means a higher chance of playing a man down before the end of the game.

Also, I have been in more games that will kick fountain divers for you, then games that they won't. Sometimes it takes 2-3, but usually people don't want to play a game with someone like that. They benefit from the couple free kills regardless.

[DaTom]

Well vote kick shouldnt count as a leave but should work like leaves, in the way that if you get vote-kicked 4% of your games you can't join the games with the hosting option "fags-free".

[Gondar]

Well vote kick shouldnt count as a leave but should work like leaves, in the way that if you get vote-kicked 4% of your games you can't join the games with the hosting option "fags-free".

Well who wouldn't want to play the leaver/fag free games? You might as well group'em together!

Also, if the vote kick leaves work like regular leaves, that's the purpose of separating them? To give you an 8% threshold?

[eriktheguy]

Well it was a great idea, but controversial ideas never reach 87.5% and therefore can't become popular.
gg

[Rasta]

Well vote kick shouldnt count as a leave but should work like leaves, in the way that if you get vote-kicked 4% of your games you can't join the games with the hosting option "fags-free".

I agree leaver % and votekick % should be separate


Well who wouldn't want to play the leaver/fag free games? You might as well group'em together!

If someone leaves a game that automatically makes them homosexual.


Well it was a great idea, but controversial ideas never reach 87.5% and therefore can't become popular.
gg

Backdoor and PSR are controversial.

Let's be honest. How many nymphora greif qq threads vs I got votekicked QQ threads do we see?

Nymphora greif lost it's fun when the pinoys left. Also it doesn't always work to votekicked nymphora, since the other team might find it funny. I personally got tired of it after 2 or 3 games of doing it, now it's just boring. Do you join games to lose on purpose? In fact, if I saw nymphora greifing on the other team I wouldn't kick it, cuz it's hilarious.

[Gondar]

If someone leaves a game that automatically makes them homosexual.

Talk to the poster who originally wrote it, I was replying.

BTW Rasta, since you were making such a big deal about the difference in our PSR, (can't help but notice mine keeps going up, and yours is going down) I thought you should know you're rated 4.1 (which is a below average player, .2 away from BAD player) on your TSR, compared to my 5.7 (above average, .2 away from GREAT player). Which is a rating system that takes all your stats into account, not just your team carrying you while you jungle farm warbeast all game.

Cue excuses.... GO

[Rasta]

Talk to the poster who originally wrote it, I was replying.

BTW Rasta, since you were making such a big deal about the difference in our PSR, (can't help but notice mine keeps going up, and yours is going down) I thought you should know you're rated 4.1 (which is a below average player, .2 away from BAD player) on your TSR, compared to my 5.7 (above average, .2 away from GREAT player). Which is a rating system that takes all your stats into account, not just your team carrying you while you jungle farm warbeast all game.

Cue excuses.... GO

We will see what happens if you are in the same game as me.

[Bill_Braskey]

I love the votekick debate because it has two sides of people who want it changed. The people who want it made to be team only so you can votekick people easier and the people who have been kicked that believe it to be abuse (some cases I have seen this to be abuse, more often than not, the person kicked was rude and not helpful for the team overall).

With regards to the specific scenarios, I can see 1 being valid. Scenario 2, in Dota (before backdoor was impossible) people would say whether backdoor was okay in that game and have a gentleman's agreement upon that sort of thing. I know it's a valid tactic, but if your whole team things "x" person is ruining the fun of a game maybe the backdoorer should think twice. (for the record I have backdoored a couple of games myself, just saying what some people think)

With regards to scenario 3, if your whole team thinks you are an ******* and doesn't want to play with you, (regardless of how well you are doing) you should be able to be kicked. Majority should rule in this instance to ensure people are enjoying the game together not on a individual basis.

9/9 people want you gone, then you deserve a leave for hurting/annoying there team. Since kicks have no effect on whether you can play or not, it should be left as a "leave". If kicks prevented the kicked person from joining a game for a time period, I would support that. Just a counter suggestion as kicks mean really little without some sort of penalty.

[Gondar]

We will see what happens if you are in the same game as me.

Sorry, I play no leaver games. You can't get in.

[man_guy]

I agree that votekicked =/= leave now that there is a reporting system coming / in-use. Maybe this can also open up dropping 9/9 votes to kick as well.

[Rasta]

Sorry, I play no leaver games. You can't get in.

You got a problem with leavers? I had 20% leave in beta, and I didn't have that scrubby 'leavers must die' attitude. If someone leave my game I don't bang my head on the wall, I just go meh, whatever. Leavers are rare in HoN, no one wants to fuk their stats.

Hence our problem, people are getting their stats fukked because the casual scrub has no balls to take criticism.

[Trikk]

Getting kicked is the same as leaving. In both cases you have ruined the game for 9 other people.

[Celarnor]

Rasta's suggestion of removing leaves from kicks would completely take away the consequences for being kicked for those legitimate reasons.

I agree there should be some form or reform. Like an appeal system, whether through the community or mods, for cases like the one you presented.

People like you are are missing the point entirely. That's a non-starter, that appeal system would quickly become overwhelmed. The majority of the votekicks that happen are just flamers who don't see the game getting played the way they want it played. In my 90 or so games (I know, not a lot) , I've seen a few genuine feeders (e.g, just walking up to the enemy to die, no skills, no running away), but I've seen a lot more dumb votes and been on the receiving end of some for builds, positioning, courier death, etc.

And no one cares. They just click the upvote, because why would anyone start a vote kick someone who wasn't doing something really bad?

A lot of people behave as if votekicking is some rare occurrence that they see only once every couple of hundred games or something. This may be true in the better parts of HoN, but down in the ghetto of Newerth, it's not. Its a big problem that keeps us newer players out of stat-bearing games because we just can't play them without getting kicked for some slight misstep, and end up with a 20% leaver state.

And nostats games are garbage, because half the people just leave halfway in or don't play seriously to begin with and do stupid stuff like go directly to Kongor and die.

Its a terrible cycle, and until something is done about it, people like me are confined to the crappiness that is nostat noob games.


Getting kicked is the same as leaving. In both cases you have ruined the game for 9 other people.You make two critically flawed assumptions here. First, you assume that leaving is the same as getting kicked. It's not. Leaving is a choice made by the player. Barring intentional stupidity, I have no choice in whether I get kicked or not.

Secondly, you assume that people actually _think_ and come to the conclusion that you're ruining their game before going along with a kickvote. Before you respond to this (if you do), I'd like you to join a game. After about five minutes, pick someone and try to kick them. For bonus points, do it to someone that isn't visible to the enemy at the time of the vote, like a jungling warbeast. Watch how many people will say yes without any prompting whatsoever. Then do it again, saying 'plz kick'. Watch how many more say yes. If you aren't astounded by the figures, then you can resuming flaming the people complaining about kickvotes.

[Lust]

Fail idea is fail.

"Hey guys votekick me out so I don't get leave% cause I need to go."

[Rasta]

Fail idea is fail.

"Hey guys votekick me out so I don't get leave% cause I need to go."

9 people have to agree for you to go. So if your team doesn't care, how does it matter if your gone?

[gewd]

To this day, I haven't seen a single example of people being kicked when they didn't deserve it. A leave indicates someone who left the game. If you are kicked, you are forced to leave the game, so yes it is a leave.


F U.

I have been kicked 2 times when I didn't deserve it.

One time, I refused my team mate's demands to run up a hill with no vision to stun when I died 2 times doing the same thing. I was only 0-2 and I was the only non-carry on the team.

I emailed S2 support and as of now, I have received no reply back or reverts to my account. Unfortunately I have forgotten the match ID of this one.

2nd time today, my team is winning 15-0, and I managed to bag 2 kills and 1 tower in a row. They decided to kick me for no good reason.

Match 4988101

I challenge you to take a look at this match and tell me why I deserved to be kicked.

I've emailed S2 support, and I am waiting for them to fix it because I sure as hell am not going to buy a stats reset.

[SandyNeegus]

If you play so that noone wants to play with you that is clearly just asking for it.

Case 1: The new player could've gone through tutorial and listened to what his team says as there are 2 kinds of newbies 1 The type that runs head first into battle again and again whatever their team says. 2 The type that will cautiously try things adapting and changing play if it doesn't work while openly asking for help. Type 1 clearly brings it upon themselves while type 2 won't get kicked unless they have joined a pro game etc.

Case 2: This is a team game so if your whole team wants you to not do something you usually shouldn't. This is like going to India and killing every cow in sight. You have to adapt to the culture and beliefs of others if you want to survive.

Case 3: Once again this is a team game and a community with unwritten rules that you must go by.

Your arguement is invalid as all these cases can easily be prevented by the person being kicked. I have no kicks in retail and had a single kick during over 1000 games in the whole beta test phase where kicking was even more commonly abused. This is a great example of what case 3 guy should've done when not agreeing but still stating their point of view.

[Gondar]

You got a problem with leavers? I had 20% leave in beta, and I didn't have that scrubby 'leavers must die' attitude. If someone leave my game I don't bang my head on the wall, I just go meh, whatever. Leavers are rare in HoN, no one wants to fuk their stats.

Hence our problem, people are getting their stats fukked because the casual scrub has no balls to take criticism.

You don't care about leavers because you are a leaver? That's your defense?

Our problem is people get their stats fukked because a scrub "has no balls to take criticism"? NEWS FLASH you need 9 people to kick. You say if 9 people think it's ok for a guy to leave a game and not take a leaver it's alright. What stops everyone from doing that and making up excuses when they want to leave a game? And why, by that same logic, is it not alright for the 9 people to kick someone when they're being an idiot?

So let me get this straight, in your mind, the vote kick system works, when it benefits the leaver? Why doesn't it surprise me that you'd think that...

People like you are are missing the point entirely. That's a non-starter, that appeal system would quickly become overwhelmed. The majority of the votekicks that happen are just flamers who don't see the game getting played the way they want it played. In my 90 or so games (I know, not a lot) , I've seen a few genuine feeders (e.g, just walking up to the enemy to die, no skills, no running away), but I've seen a lot more dumb votes and been on the receiving end of some for builds, positioning, courier death, etc.

And no one cares. They just click the upvote, because why would anyone start a vote kick someone who wasn't doing something really bad?

A lot of people behave as if votekicking is some rare occurrence that they see only once every couple of hundred games or something. This may be true in the better parts of HoN, but down in the ghetto of Newerth, it's not. Its a big problem that keeps us newer players out of stat-bearing games because we just can't play them without getting kicked for some slight misstep, and end up with a 20% leaver state.

And nostats games are garbage, because half the people just leave halfway in or don't play seriously to begin with and do stupid stuff like go directly to Kongor and die.

Its a terrible cycle, and until something is done about it, people like me are confined to the crappiness that is nostat noob games.

You make two critically flawed assumptions here. First, you assume that leaving is the same as getting kicked. It's not. Leaving is a choice made by the player. Barring intentional stupidity, I have no choice in whether I get kicked or not.

Secondly, you assume that people actually _think_ and come to the conclusion that you're ruining their game before going along with a kickvote. Before you respond to this (if you do), I'd like you to join a game. After about five minutes, pick someone and try to kick them. For bonus points, do it to someone that isn't visible to the enemy at the time of the vote, like a jungling warbeast. Watch how many people will say yes without any prompting whatsoever. Then do it again, saying 'plz kick'. Watch how many more say yes. If you aren't astounded by the figures, then you can resuming flaming the people complaining about kickvotes.

No, I think you're missing the point, since the point isn't even about the appeal system. The point is about the kick system, I really couldn't give 2 shits about the appeal system. As I a said before I've played OVER 400 games of HoN including the beta, and don't need to do your little experiment. Yes, some games people want to kick people for stupid reasons, but that doesn't happen every second game like you says it does. Those flamers who start vote kicks do happen every once in a while, but 9 other people still have to agree, and USUALLY they don't. There IS abuse, everyone has agreed, but not as bad as it would be without the votekick. It was put there for a reason. Dota mods made it an option for a reason.

You say no one cares and they just click accept because there must be a reason? That is just not true. Players and teams don't make a habit of kicking someone on their own team for no reason just to put themselves down a man, and you're not even guaranteed the other team will kick the person on your team, cause it may be giving them an advantage.

And no, that logic is not flawed, yes leaving is a choice by the player and kicking is not, but the end result is the same thing: 1 team is down a player and at a disadvantage, and that player is no longer in the game. Whether they leave or 9 people make them LEAVE, yes people make them LEAVE, they are a leaver, and they've put their team down a man.

Again, you're not much different from rasta, you come in here wanting the system changed cause you've been kicked, and even drop the number 20% leave.

Edit: I just checked your stats and you have 0 leaves or kicks in your new account. You've still got a .4kd and I can see your last 10 games or so are marked noob games, so you're obviously back on the right track. I see a game you went like 4-24 and you weren't kicked. So as you can see when you're playing WITH other noobs the system works alright. Where a player like you runs into trouble is when you join a game with better players and they feel you're ruining their game. That's what the system is there for.

If you've been kicked MULTIPLE times, there's something wrong. You point out positioning, courier, builds. Well if that's the case, you're playing with players above your skill level and need to player lower tier games.

Obviously the majority of the community doesn't have a problem with being kicked, or the leave % would be higher and there would be more outrage.

ONE LAST TIME FOR THE ILLITERATE: YES THERE IS ABUSE, NO THAT IS NOT A REASON TO CHANGE THE WHOLE SYSTEM. Changing the system would not remove the abuse, it would actually create a LOT more.

If the majority aren't being kicked, or only being kicked once in a while, then I say again:

You players who are bring kicked REGULARLY need to look at the CAUSE of the kicks.

Are you feeding REGULARLY? Player lower tier games.

Are you a lamer? Don't be an idiot and intentionally ruin the game.

Are you a flamer? Go out and try making some friends, it usually starts with showing some respect. Try it.

Are you rasta and all of the above? Find a new game.

[KennosiS]

Leaver = someone that you dont want to play with. You dont mind if he is an arrogant, real leaver, supernewb or somewhat.

[SinisterMJ]

I had a leaver on the enemy team for following reason:

we were dominating the team, and 4/5 of them wanted to concede. 1 probably wanted to give it another try or whatever, but for the sake of a fast concede he was kicked. I was willing to kick since I understand the enemies teams reason (they were twice genocided, their carry had hardly farm), but it's just not fair that the one who wanted to try once more gets a leave.