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View Full Version : Tip of the week #9



yyr_
05-31-2010, 03:46 AM
Today's topic is about how clicking the "concede" button just because your getting your arse handed to you isn't a great idea. A fair few of the games people normally concede they could easily have come back from.

I have played game recently in which we were pretty screwed, we had only their outer towers and they had raxes. We were also down on the score board and two of our players weren't great. We also had a team composed of both a scout and a rampage. After qq'ing a bit we got our asses together and pretty much turtled until scout/rampage could 2v5 their team just by unleashing the fury that is right click. That game I tried to concede, and we came back to win the game being insanely far behind. I learn't that even the most fail looking games can have comebacks.

I also have played alot of games where enemy teams have conceded before rax or even inner tower is taken. Sure, there are some games where your pollywog is like 0-12-3 and your team is nothing but balls, but most of the time you should be able to come back, even if its because your enemies get cockie and screw up.

Also a good thing to note is that some teams that are losing all game and are all underfarmed can come back quite easily with better coordination. A team like :temp: :pyro: :hamm: :chip: :behe: even if heavily underfarmed willl dominate a teamfight if they intiate well and can procede to push to victory. You can tell by checking out all their AoE, they have enough to inflict thousands of damage on each player if tempest lands a good ulti. Another line-up for an epic come back is :wret: :mage: :dark: :thun: :scou:. This is because if the game drags long enough, even if your down 20 kills your team scales very well into late game and will be able to rip through the opposing team, all you need to make it happen is a shrunken head.

When deciding to concede you should always check both teams line-up, levels and gear. An example:

Legion :ophe: :slit: :glac: :fayd: :thun: vs :dark: :valk: :nymp: :ramp: :madm: Hellbourne
The score is 33 - 14 and the game has been going for 27 minutes. Nymphora is currently 0-12-7 and the rest of the team have a fair few deaths each. Legion has taken a side rax, both melee and ranged. Everyone on legion is a couple of levels above nymph/valk/madman. Dark has been ignoring her teammates and just farming.
This is a game where hellbourne can come back from. Even though legion has a definite gold and level advantage their team lacks a strong late game carry. Their team is composed mainly of pushers and gankers which is why they steam rolled early. Hellbourne on the other hand has a great late game set up, most of their team scales well into lategame. If each of them get a shrunken head they will win late game teamfights and could push for the game.

Sometimes if you have a warbeast or a scout in a pub game and your getting spanked you can also turn it round by backdooring their towers/base piece by piece. In pub games they normally dont have the co-ordination to stop you if your carefully and do it well.

The tip of this week is, don't concede because it seems one sided at the moment. At least wait until they have a rax before you decide its over because there is a chance you can always come back, there still is even with a rax difference and sometimes two or even all.

Raxx: Destruction of the spawning buildings, importantly the melee ones.

yyr_
05-31-2010, 03:47 AM
Go, my grammar nazis, fix my post.

Feel free to add anything below or to make points for discussion.

ogmilk
05-31-2010, 03:49 AM
There's a concede button?

Where`?

Passive
05-31-2010, 03:53 AM
more important tip, u dont concede because u just lost a rax, me and my friends had few comeback games that we turned the game around after they raxxed 2 of our lanes.

Benny`
05-31-2010, 04:53 AM
Best Tip: Coming back from All Raxs and Towers down is the best feeling :D

Only ever done it once, but man was it epic.

SuperStag
05-31-2010, 05:01 AM
My best comeback was only 2 melee raxes 1 ranged... each in different lanes...
Anyway, awesome tip. Too bad 98% of the noobs don't read forums...

TooBadItsMe
05-31-2010, 05:02 AM
You should always evaluate your lineup to see if it has any potential lategame vs the enemyteam. If the answer is no, and you are losing towers and heros badly without ever winning a teamfight, they have a huge gold and xp advantage, your carry has 2-10 while the enemy has an overfed carry with good supports, the smartest thing is not to wait for a turnaround. You lost the game, and will have to deal with it.

In a shitty pub game: concede. If you didn't work together well during the first 30 minuts, you won't do it now. Quite the opposite, you will probably have one semi-afk in base and one flaming the teamchat to get that precious concede. If you think it's worth it: continue, go ahead and have fun. In comp.games on the other hand you - hopefully - have the intention to get better and learn to play even if the enemy is roflstomping you, hence a concedevote should be avoided until the loss is pretty much settled in stone.

Mewtwo
05-31-2010, 05:44 AM
Also note that 1 barracks down =/= game over, you can easily pick off one or two heroes(that's pretty key in turning around those "gg's"), kong and or push a barracks down in another lane evening the field.

Also, team composition - if you're being stomped by carrys early game and they raxx you might be looking at a good option to concede rather than get farmed for stats any more.

Also, If they are NOTICABLY better in skill you might want to give it up, 30-0,21-0,etc scores before 15mins can be a clear indicator of that.

-There are times to concede.

Neru
05-31-2010, 07:24 AM
Toobaditsme hit the nail on the head. You must always check your lineup against the enemies before thinking of conceding. If you have a decent Scout who is at 0/2/4 but raxes are down, but the other team have no hard carry or theirs is like 0/14/0 then you can turtle and win. If not, don't bother.

Grammar Nazi corrections:

Today's*
isn't*
pretty screwed in*
and they had our raxes*
score board*
weren't*
our asses together*
I*
a lot* (not one word)
Sure, there are some games..* (comma)
don't*
rax*
rax difference*

Rax is generally spelt with one X since its an abbreviation of barracks (racks > rax) so you want it as short as possible for in-game typing ;)

EDIT: Should I even bother fixing the grammar/spelling since I swear you never actually fix the mistakes :(

SinisterMJ
05-31-2010, 08:18 AM
I had one of these games yesterday, I got my a$$ handed to me. They had Pollywog, and even as Accursed I was killed pretty dang fast. They 2 laned us, and we weren't even able to kill all their outer towers, so it was pretty bad. At one point one of them already wrote gg to us. But, I had babysitted a Madman, and did everything I could for him. I never took any last hits, I double stacked creeps, I downed creep spots to 10% life, then double stacked and left them for the MM to pick them up.
At some point the Madman started to carry, and he was by far outpacing their Swiftblade, and we managed to get Mega creeps against them. 3 players guarded our 70% HP base (they were backdooring, since we went backdoor against one of their towers), and Moon Queen with Madman cleared their base and got the victory. 67 minute game, and the madman didn't just have endgame gear, it was pretty much the best you could go for (Wingbow, Runed Axe, Steam Boots, Stun Hammer, ...). So yes, it looked really really bad, but we still managed to pull through.

yyr_
05-31-2010, 09:36 AM
EDIT: Should I even bother fixing the grammar/spelling since I swear you never actually fix the mistakes :(

I made the changes :D

Neru
05-31-2010, 10:38 AM
I made the changes :D

I love you.

DVNO911
05-31-2010, 10:41 AM
When the other team gets cocky and someone says "Why dont concede?", heres a perfect sentence for verbal counter:
"I can't because i aint in your team"

Headbus
05-31-2010, 11:05 AM
I've come back after being down 3 melee rax and 2 ranged rax simply because my SR was getting so buff that runnninv around teamfights spamming Q was enough to win us the game.

knowitall
05-31-2010, 11:17 AM
I think the only reason people feel that the concede button is overused is because they have bad judgement.

Besides, those comebacks stand out in your memory far more than all the times you didn't concede and continued to get destroyed.

Naxemal
05-31-2010, 12:49 PM
What you say is true, I've won 2 games in same day playing 4v5 from start.

LightRain
05-31-2010, 01:26 PM
Go, my grammar nazis, fix my post.

Feel free to add anything below or to make points for discussion.
fixed first sentence, added parallel structure to second sentence

I think the only reason people feel that the concede button is overused is because they have bad judgement.

Besides, those comebacks stand out in your memory far more than all the times you didn't concede and continued to get destroyed.I agree - I recall many many games where the enemy team wanted to concede early, and then didn't and then... my team won.
However, I do think people should pay more attention to team composition, and figure out which team has the better late game and how long they have to hold off to reach that point. I think you can improve the tip by including full 5v5 matchup examples, rather than just listing a lineup with three carries.

pk_thunder
05-31-2010, 02:02 PM
you should add that if someone has to go and you are losing you should concede so that person doesn't have to d/c from the game

and if u're losing with a carry "doing nothing" then don't concede until they at least come out of the forest to fight and lose, cus they should turn the game around

ElementUser
05-31-2010, 02:04 PM
Basically, experience dictates when you will lose the game and when you have a reasonably decent chance to come back.

99% of the time when I want to concede, we already lost the game. In those super rare scenarios where I want to concede and some person on our team outright refuses to, we lose 100% of the time.

In those once-in-a-blue-moon times of 1% games where I want to concede but we could have won the game, well I've never seen such a scenario happen yet.

pk_thunder
05-31-2010, 02:07 PM
Grammar Nazi corrections:

Today's*
isn't*
pretty screwed in*
and they had our raxes*
score board*
weren't*
our asses together*
I*
a lot* (not one word)
Sure, there are some games..* (comma)
don't*
rax*
rax difference*

Rax is generally spelt with one X since its an abbreviation of barracks (racks > rax) so you want it as short as possible for in-game typing ;)

EDIT: Should I even bother fixing the grammar/spelling since I swear you never actually fix the mistakes :(
Grammar Nazi Correction for a Fellow Grammar Nazi:

You need to capitalize "Corrections" in the title.

Also you "raxx" is the plural of "rax" and also is a internet verb of "to rax".


Basically, experience dictates when you will lose the game and when you have a reasonably decent chance to come back.

99% of the time when I want to concede, we already lost the game. In those super rare scenarios where I want to concede and some person on our team outright refuses to, we lose 100% of the time.

In those once-in-a-blue-moon times of 1% games where I want to concede but we could have won the game, well I've never seen such a scenario happen yet.
that means u never played over 49 games cus 1% of 50 (or above) will be rounded to 1?

go play moar game :S?

ElementUser
05-31-2010, 02:44 PM
that means u never played over 49 games cus 1% of 50 (or above) will be rounded to 1?

go play moar game :S?

What I'm talking about includes my games during beta too :)

Neru
05-31-2010, 03:09 PM
Brr, Nazi the noun, grammar at the start of the title corrections was the third word which is neither a majuscule noun nor the beginning of a sentence.

Daemone
05-31-2010, 04:04 PM
What I'm talking about includes my games during beta too :)
But you see it isn't 50 games and over it's 50 concedes and
over

Meowshi
05-31-2010, 04:43 PM
Man, we're going to see so many more 'I DONT WANT TO CONCEDE, WE CAN MAKE A COMEBACK'

My primary method of seeing whether we concede or not is level and gold disparities. If their lowest level is 5 levels higher than our highest level, chances are we aren't going to win. If they have 3 core inventories and we have people running around with boots/power supply, chances are- we aren't going to win.

Comebacks and cool and all, but they don't happen often.

Crabski
05-31-2010, 05:13 PM
Toobaditsme hit the nail on the head. You must always check your lineup against the enemies before thinking of conceding. If you have a decent Scout who is at 0/2/4 but raxes are down, but the other team have no hard carry or theirs is like 0/14/0 then you can turtle and win. If not, don't bother.

Grammar Nazi corrections:

Today's*
isn't*
pretty screwed in*
and they had our raxes*
score board*
weren't*
our asses together*
I*
a lot* (not one word)
Sure, there are some games..* (comma)
don't*
rax*
rax difference*

Rax is generally spelt with one X since its an abbreviation of barracks (racks > rax) so you want it as short as possible for in-game typing ;)

EDIT: Should I even bother fixing the grammar/spelling since I swear you never actually fix the mistakes :(

I love you.

failshot
05-31-2010, 05:17 PM
Just had some questions about the new TotW:

-:devo::zeph::mage::slit: can farm up and make a good comeback, but are there heroes that do better? How about heroes that are harder to comeback with?

-Are there items to consider if you are underfarmed in order to comeback?

pk_thunder
05-31-2010, 06:06 PM
Just had some questions about the new TotW:

-:devo::zeph::mage::slit: can farm up and make a good comeback, but are there heroes that do better? How about heroes that are harder to comeback with?

-Are there items to consider if you are underfarmed in order to comeback?
:devo: is hard to comeback lol, u need to be ganking for the +str, best ones are hard carries with runed axe/huge aoe spells, worst ones are any pushing heroes

fill ur inv with minor stat items if u can't afford anything else xD

Jeiman
05-31-2010, 08:33 PM
Yyr_ I have a suggestion for you. Find someone to act as your editor. Then you won't have to worry about your grammar Nazi's. :) I'm starting to think maybe English isn't your first language.

yyr_
05-31-2010, 08:52 PM
Yyr_ I have a suggestion for you. Find someone to act as your editor. Then you won't have to worry about your grammar Nazi's. :) I'm starting to think maybe English isn't your first language.

Lol. Unfortunately english is my first and only language. I only picked maths or science at university and highschool and I also refused to study. After 4 years of this, my ability to write properly has deteriorated :D

yyr_
05-31-2010, 08:53 PM
fixed first sentence, added parallel structure to second sentence

ta :D

Also edited the original post.

pk_thunder
06-04-2010, 07:26 PM
Lol. Unfortunately english is my first and only language. I only picked maths or science at university and highschool and I also refused to study. After 4 years of this, my ability to write properly has deteriorated :D
not hard to check this

just reread it once and ur done

Neru
06-05-2010, 07:01 AM
I'm happy to proof read it as it goes up if you can go through the effort of editing :) Still great that you're doing these by the way, looking forward to #10.

Theburned
07-30-2010, 12:07 AM
What you say is true, I've won 2 games in same day playing 4v5 from start.

this is pretty much retarded tbh

the hard thing about 4v5 is that it usually is either a horrible midder feeding the other mid hero then leaving giving you less gpm from the ticks (from start to he left) and well as the word feeding goes it gives the other team MORE XP AND GOLD, the hero will probably have bought start items like runes of blight health potions and other crap that won't be needed after he left because the time he ticks out laning phase is over, especially if he feeds mid.

comparing a leaver to a 4v5
you get less xp because you give him either mid lane xp or 50% of the lane xp which is pretty horrible to the lane partner when he ends up being 1-3 lvls below the mid hero including that he gets to be alone on the lane to heroes that have a decent chance of being fed if thats the reason he left.
if you have 2 carries and one is leaving you will have them less farmed than if it was 4v5 from the start.

Tripwyr
07-30-2010, 01:47 AM
this is pretty much retarded tbh

...

What's even more retarded is necroing a few month old post.