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MrBigsmurf
05-29-2010, 05:41 PM
I am just now getting around to trying out chronos :chro: and have been checking out peoples builds, what I see in game and read on strats and everyone says the same starting items, att speed boots :Steamboots:, EP :ElderParasite:, but after that is where the debate comes in. Most say Savage Mace but I have seen people WTFBBQSAUCEPWN all with Wingbow as well.

Savage Mace :SavageMace:, with the 80 damage, 15 att speed and the chance to do 100 bonus damage, which I like more and for the build on him, I think it works better with his set up.

Wingbow :Wingbow:, 30 damage, 30 att speed, 30 agil, and 30 evasion. I can see where people would want this as well more att speed, the damage is good with the +30 and 30 agil adding to it.

I am just more incline to go with Savage mace. The biggest output of your damage is when they are in your ult, EP is hit and you are freely smacking on anything that isnt moving so you dont need the evasion, you have a built in one, plus the bonus 100 damage can stack up faster and higher than the damage from agil.

Can you please post your comments on which is better and after boots, EP, your choice in item what do you go with next? I am thinking if the game goes on and you have time of getting Shield Breaker, 60 Damage and lower armor lets me keep going after ult and the squishies are down and its time to take down the Str.

NwGRich
05-29-2010, 05:51 PM
+100 ****ing hurts 25 minutes in the game

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 06:31 PM
no need for wingbow if u have rewind

Prelliator
05-29-2010, 06:38 PM
no need for wingbow if u have rewind

he is totally right:chro:

Dr`Delicious
05-29-2010, 06:41 PM
I think both of them are good, and that it depends on the enemy lineup. Stacking Rewind and Wingbow is really good against 2 carries, while the Savage Mace is somewhat stronger for straight damage.

Get both!

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 06:42 PM
I think both of them are good, and that it depends on the enemy lineup. Stacking Rewind and Wingbow is really good against 2 carries, while the Savage Mace is somewhat stronger for straight damage.

Get both!
well ofc

but shieldbreaker -> savage mace is deadly

getting EP on chronos is nubbish

Trikk
05-29-2010, 06:47 PM
Always build some damage before you finish EP.

coley
05-29-2010, 07:03 PM
well when ever I paly chronos I agree with the statement

+100 ****ing hurts 25 minutes in the game
but whenever I play him the statement above applies ans well as the statement
Wow he has rewind AND wingbow 25 mins in gg just concede now(not to mention his savage and boots to)

anyways when situation like this occur :swif:vs:chro:, were both heroes have an evasion like skill I find that wingbow helps a lot when it comes down to it.
but personally I like going nomes wisdom and then rushing my ult stick.:rolleyes:

^^^^^SARCASM^^^or is it?^^^^^^
but sometimes I like to mix the style up and do something like...
:Steamboots:>:ElderParasite:>:ChargedHammer:>:Riftshards:

But chronos is very versatile and can e built in a million different ways.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 08:42 PM
anyways when situation like this occur :swif:vs:chro:, were both heroes have an evasion like skill I find that wingbow helps a lot when it comes down to it.
but personally I like going nomes wisdom and then rushing my ult stick.:rolleyes:

^^^^^SARCASM^^^or is it?^^^^^^
but sometimes I like to mix the style up and do something like...
:Steamboots:>:ElderParasite:>:ChargedHammer:>:Riftshards:

ok, if chronos has a savage mace then he'll be always hitting swift, so HAHAHAHA

ur build sucks, EP is always bad unless if u already have a savage mace or something. and where is ur runed axe? wtf

I still prefer:
runed axe -> steamboots -> sheildbreaker (does more dmg than EP) -> savage mace/rift shards -> rift shards/wingbow

B1oX
05-29-2010, 08:54 PM
no need for wingbow if u have rewind

Except rewind stacks with evasion from snake bracelet, so you can evade the damage and still heal what you evaded.

WorstPlayer
05-29-2010, 09:04 PM
Wingbow made Void Chronos GODLIKE!

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 09:14 PM
Except rewind stacks with evasion from snake bracelet, so you can evade the damage and still heal what you evaded.
yeah but ur not gonna get hit during chronofield, and the rewind will be nuff for finishing them off

or are u just that bad and don't ult?

ElementUser
05-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Except rewind stacks with evasion from snake bracelet, so you can evade the damage and still heal what you evaded.

The first part is true, second part is not.

Rewind triggers <ondamaged>:


<ability
name="Ability_Chronos2"

icon="icon.tga"

maxlevel="4"
requiredlevel="1,3,5,7"

actiontype="passive"
>
<onframe>
<condition test="accumulator gt 0">
<setvar0 a="frametime" b="source_maxhealth" op="mult" />
<heal target="source_entity" a="var0" b="0.25" op="mult" />
<setvar1 a="accumulator" b="result" op="sub" />
<setaccumulator value="var1" />
</condition>
</onframe>

<ondamaged>
<chance threshold="0.10,0.15,0.20,0.25">
<setvar2 a="source_damage" b="accumulator" op="add" />
<setaccumulator value="var2" />
</chance>
</ondamaged>
</ability>


If evasion triggers, <ondamaged> does not trigger.

Proven by Malle and Ikkyo here: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=31541

omg_booboo
05-29-2010, 10:38 PM
Get both, but savage mace first.

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 12:37 AM
So what I am hearing is :RunedAxe: :Steamboots: :SavageMace: :Shieldbreaker: :Wingbow:

Don't go EP, rush your runeaxe, with :Sustainer: first than the damage, followed by boots, then get savage hopefull if all done right should be around the 25 minute mark, hopefully sooner depending on an early gank. Then get shieldbreaker, does more damage then EP, and if the game drags on get wingbow and if I want a 6th slot riftshard to get 800+ damage crits.
wingbow is more situational

imho I'd go for huge dmg items cus u can just instagib most ppl in chronosphere

MrBigsmurf
05-30-2010, 12:37 AM
So what I am hearing is :RunedAxe: :Steamboots: :SavageMace: :Shieldbreaker: :Wingbow:

Don't go EP, rush your runeaxe, with :Sustainer: first than the damage, followed by boots, then get savage hopefull if all done right should be around the 25 minute mark, hopefully sooner depending on an early gank. Then get shieldbreaker, does more damage then EP, and if the game drags on get wingbow and if I want a 6th slot riftshard to get 800+ damage crits.

Darkstrand
05-30-2010, 01:43 AM
savage mace doesn't scale as well as other items, should the game go into overtime. though you should only really be getting it to counter the other team's evasion (ie enemy with a wingbow). riftshards scale much better than savage mace, if you're just looking for burst go with crit.

wingbow on the other hand scales miraculously throughout the game, the evasion will prevent tons of damage regardless, adding another measure of security and survivability.

SoulDragon
05-30-2010, 02:05 AM
yeah but ur not gonna get hit during chronofield, and the rewind will be nuff for finishing them off

or are u just that bad and don't ult?

Yes you're so right because chronofield is the only time he'll ever be fighting and in contact with other heroes! Hell he doesn't even technically exist in the game unless he uses chronofield, this incredible ultimate that suddenly makes cronos enter the game.

bwuh? O.o Maybe you just have 3-4 resto stones.

Yes I can see you are trolling.

Deathbeproud
05-30-2010, 02:05 AM
No one mentions Alchemist Bones? Honestly RA is good but if I am truly free farming a lane I will rush Alch Bones. 300g just off a Vagabond. Gives great attack speed (which I find is nice replacement for EP early on).

I'm a jungle freak though and that is where Alchemist Bones shines. There is no denying the power of that early Sustainer in a lane but I like clearing the jungle as fast as possible.

Darkstrand
05-30-2010, 02:10 AM
No one mentions Alchemist Bones? Honestly RA is good but if I am truly free farming a lane I will rush Alch Bones. 300g just off a Vagabond. Gives great attack speed (which I find is nice replacement for EP early on).

I'm a jungle freak though and that is where Alchemist Bones shines. There is no denying the power of that early Sustainer in a lane but I like clearing the jungle as fast as possible.

Alchemist Bones are in almost all cases, completely useless. the bonuses you get from it can be bought for a lot cheaper, while costing so much, it effectively delays your teamfight potential - basically making you have to farm that much more to compensate.

BarneyGumbal
05-30-2010, 06:06 AM
Why is Savage Mace > Wingbow when SM gives: +88 damage, +15 attack speed while Wingbow gives: +60 damage +60 attack speed not to mention the evasion and armour. I figured the attack speed would benefit Chronos' third skill, especially if you don't build an EP.

apot
05-30-2010, 06:42 AM
Why is Savage Mace > Wingbow when SM gives: +88 damage, +15 attack speed while Wingbow gives: +60 damage +60 attack speed not to mention the evasion and armour. I figured the attack speed would benefit Chronos' third skill, especially if you don't build an EP.
savage mace procs for damage man
+123 damage, +15 AS
+60 damage, +60 AS

ARCHAON
05-30-2010, 06:49 AM
Alchemist Bones are in almost all cases, completely useless. the bonuses you get from it can be bought for a lot cheaper, while costing so much, it effectively delays your teamfight potential - basically making you have to farm that much more to compensate.

Chronos is already a late game carry, you are not to expect him to really help out before 30+ min, unless he got 500gpm within the first 10-15min., so getting Alchemist Bones is quite good for the extra money and attack speed, so I find it okay...

Really, anything that improves your farm is good, and the attack speed just tops it off, more bash procs = good

dEph_
05-30-2010, 07:56 AM
Sphere only give u 5secs of protection. Out of the sphere wingbow gives a lot more survivability.

If u can get a good ult tho, u should have 1 hero dead with at least 2 others dying. So just going dps isn't that bad at all.

BarneyGumbal
05-30-2010, 08:30 AM
savage mace procs for damage man
+123 damage, +15 AS
+60 damage, +60 AS
Right, I forgot about the proc. Still, wouldn't Wingbow -> SM be better so that you can proc the +100 damage more often?

apot
05-30-2010, 08:48 AM
mathcraft for pure dps, not considering evasion or ministun:
dps from wingbow normalized for cost: (60+AS)(60+D)/6000
dps from savage normalized for cost: (15+AS)(123+D)/5400
AS = attackspeed BEFORE any components
D = damage BEFORE any components

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+Y%3D%2830%2813X%2B465%29%29%2F%28X%2B690% 29+from+0+to+500
y axis is attackspeed, x axis is damage
area to the right of the line means you get more dps per gold out of wingbow
area to the left of the line means you get more dps per gold out of savage

tl;dr: you will get more dps per gold out of savage than wingbow
unless you go and farm, not one, but TWO doombringers first AND get phase boots instead of steam, but even then the dps is pretty close

Kaelillidan
05-30-2010, 09:15 AM
The thing is savage mace counters wingbow because evasion does not stop true damage.
Better idea to get savage mace if you think your opponent carries are going to get a wingbow themselves.

BarneyGumbal
05-30-2010, 09:21 AM
mathcraft for pure dps, not considering evasion or ministun:
dps from wingbow normalized for cost: (60+AS)(60+D)/6000
dps from savage normalized for cost: (15+AS)(123+D)/5400
AS = attackspeed BEFORE any components
D = damage BEFORE any components

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+Y%3D%2830%2813X%2B465%29%29%2F%28X%2B690% 29+from+0+to+500
y axis is attackspeed, x axis is damage
area to the right of the line means you get more dps per gold out of wingbow
area to the left of the line means you get more dps per gold out of savage

tl;dr: you will get more dps per gold out of savage than wingbow
unless you go and farm, not one, but TWO doombringers first AND get phase boots instead of steam, but even then the dps is pretty close
Nice. I guess I'll grab SM before Wingbow from now on.

DaDrizzle
05-30-2010, 10:56 AM
added in the + damage you get from the extra IAS you get from wingbow due to the agility steal when comparing the damage output of savage and wingbow?

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 11:17 AM
added in the + damage you get from the extra IAS you get from wingbow due to the agility steal when comparing the damage output of savage and wingbow?
you don't understand the point

savage mace has +88 dmg, +15 AS, +100 physical dmg proc, and a true strike
wingbow is +30 agi, +30 dmg, +30 AS, and +30 evasion

the point is the evasion is not need, thus u are paying for something you don't need and being inefficient

some other heroes might get wingbow to try to not die during chronosphere, so savage mace is a great counter

it doesn't matter as long as u can kill ppl in chronosphere, then u won't need the wingbow cus u have rewind anyways.

maybe if they had like 3 farmed carries or something/somehow then you might need the extra evasion so u can deal with the other carry fast the chronosphere has stopped

also have to remember that savage mace is cheaper


Chronos is already a late game carry, you are not to expect him to really help out before 30+ min, unless he got 500gpm within the first 10-15min., so getting Alchemist Bones is quite good for the extra money and attack speed, so I find it okay...

Really, anything that improves your farm is good, and the attack speed just tops it off, more bash procs = good
LOL

alch bones is a waste on chronos, runed axe is nuff

Proxymate
05-30-2010, 11:24 AM
I tend to get Riftshards over Wingbow, but I don't really play Chronos, so what do I know.

Feed4Fame
05-30-2010, 11:31 AM
Always go for :Steamboots::ElderParasite::SavageMace: afterwards you can choose basically any dps Item you want e.g. winged bow, runed axe, riftshards, charged hammer etc

You can add 2 bracers and ironshield if you are dying too often or maybe even a shrunkean had. But those 3 items are core for maxing your damage output.
EP synergizes perfectly with your 3rd skill and :SavageMace: for the greatest damage output.
You can say in general that the damage output for fast-attacking heroes is at best maxed with a :SavageMace:
heroes with high damage max their damage output at best with critical strike.
(this is just a general recommendation, I'm not suggesting you to buy riftshards
on pebbles)

and plz dont get runed axe asap... this is so inefficient.... really guys.... it's only an option as 3rd item or even later OR if you are really skilled and always get 2 or even more targets close to each other in your ulti.
so plz, just dont...

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 11:35 AM
Always go for :Steamboots::ElderParasite::SavageMace: afterwards you can choose basically any dps Item you want e.g. winged bow, runed axe, riftshards, charged hammer etc

You can add 2 bracers and ironshield if you are dying too often or maybe even a shrunkean had. But those 3 items are core for maxing your damage output.
EP synergizes perfectly with your 3rd skill and :SavageMace: for the greatest damage output.
You can say in general that the damage output for fast-attacking heroes is at best maxed with a :SavageMace:
heroes with high damage max their damage output at best with critical strike.
(this is just a general recommendation, I'm not suggesting you to buy riftshards on pebbles)

and plz dont get runed axe asap... this is so inefficient.... really guys.... it's only an option as 3rd item or even later OR if you are really skilled and always get 2 or even more targets close to each other in your ulti.
so plz, just dont...
EP is generally bad on chronos

and why does nobody get runed axe on chronos? r u guys stuck in patch 0.1.xx?

edit: LOL, getting runed axe as 3rd item defeats the purpose of getting it, it's to help farmed as early as possible!!! It's not made to go with ur ult dummy, it's made so u get that 30 min shieldbreaker and 40 min savage mace to pwn. wow... FAIL

it's now:
runed axe -> steamboots -> sheildbreaker (EP is situational, only if u don't trust ur ability to chronosphere or if u need to gank NAO) -> savage mace -> rift shards (wingbow if they have 2 carries that are farmed) -> demonic/doombringer/charged hammer/token

shieldbreaker -> savage mace is always the way to go for DPS

radicalomg
05-30-2010, 12:10 PM
well ofc

but shieldbreaker -> savage mace is deadly

getting EP on chronos is nubbish


WHat item do you recommend instead of ep for the attack speed? Cause its really a huge boost to dps when u have savage mace.

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 12:13 PM
WHat item do you recommend instead of ep for the attack speed? Cause its really a huge boost to dps when u have savage mace.
who needs atk speed?

would u have 200-300 dmg or 100-200 dmg?

EP makes u squishy afterward so if u don't kill them u can be killed pretty fast

also would u like to proc ur stun inside the chronosphere or outside? cus EP makes u proc it inside (just misses the end of it)

also EP costs mana, and because chronos doesn't have a huge brain (and int gain), he shouldn't need to use too much mana

voidSkipper
05-30-2010, 12:24 PM
This is obviously a really stupid question judging by the overwhelming response in the thread but,

Isn't the point of parasite to bash as much as possible with your third skill and steal as much agility as possible in as small a time as possible?

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 12:30 PM
This is obviously a really stupid question judging by the overwhelming response in the thread but,

Isn't the point of parasite to bash as much as possible with your third skill and steal as much agility as possible in as small a time as possible?
yeah but it doesn't steal nuff for it to be super effective

I mean I'd rather go focus down their carry asap rather than hit everyone and then start to pwn...

radicalomg
05-30-2010, 12:44 PM
Ok I can see your point on EP, and I have always been a fan on runed axe (on most melee carries) to farm like a chinese wow player.

However I always tended towards a wingbow, over savage mace - I guess its because of the 'untouchability' you get from the additional evasion. The attack speed is just godlike, and often I DID have an EP so coupled it would rapeface. I can also understand that Savage mace provides some insane dps, the +100 is some strong rapeface too.

You say NO EP, get RA, SB and SM? Is this viable enough, seeing as you will have relatively low hp. Doesn't a shrunken head fit in here somewhere?

Darkstrand
05-30-2010, 12:51 PM
Chronos is already a late game carry, you are not to expect him to really help out before 30+ min, unless he got 500gpm within the first 10-15min., so getting Alchemist Bones is quite good for the extra money and attack speed, so I find it okay...

Really, anything that improves your farm is good, and the attack speed just tops it off, more bash procs = good

it's not okay to afk farm for 30 minutes, any respectable player doesn't sit around and leave his team to die while he farms the whole game until he has items.

if you waste your gold on items that do not increase your effectiveness early, you'll be stuck playing 4v5 for the most part of the game, and if your opponent is decent and work together, you will lose.

pk_thunder
05-30-2010, 12:56 PM
Ok I can see your point on EP, and I have always been a fan on runed axe (on most melee carries) to farm like a chinese wow player.

However I always tended towards a wingbow, over savage mace - I guess its because of the 'untouchability' you get from the additional evasion. The attack speed is just godlike, and often I DID have an EP so coupled it would rapeface. I can also understand that Savage mace provides some insane dps, the +100 is some strong rapeface too.

You say NO EP, get RA, SB and SM? Is this viable enough, seeing as you will have relatively low hp. Doesn't a shrunken head fit in here somewhere?
wingbow is not needed unless if u are in need of EHP

look, EP makes u take 20% more dmg, which makes burst dmg a possible way to kill you

as chronos, the only thing you will be afraid of is right after the chronoshpere someone like :witc: combos you, but if u have RA -> SB -> SM u'd take out most of their team and ur team would be ready to help

if u have an EP, u'd take more dmg from the possible dmg u could take after the ult (which is risky-er). chronos is a glass cannon cus he has a chronosphere but chronos can just live off a bracer, he doesn't need a shrunken head just because of his ult but if u get items like EP then it could make ur life after the chronosphere hard

if u get EP you are reliant on it to give you dps, it's not bad but it's not the best combo (EP never was the best thing on anyone). it's much better to play it safer without EP

and no, lifesteal will not help if u are stunned right after the chronosphere (which the other team would probably do)

main thing is EP gives a crappy lifesteal orb that u don't need (if ur lifestealing inside ult then ur doing it wrong, u should be at full hp)



btw shieldbreaker just makes savage mace just THAT much better

EP is nice but with -6 armor and +60 dmg from SB and how it doesn't cost mana it's a better combo

Ardeaf
05-30-2010, 01:43 PM
it's not okay to afk farm for 30 minutes, any respectable player doesn't sit around and leave his team to die while he farms the whole game until he has items.

if you waste your gold on items that do not increase your effectiveness early, you'll be stuck playing 4v5 for the most part of the game, and if your opponent is decent and work together, you will lose.

In fact the general consensus of hardcarries is that you shouldn't expect them to help much, but they will jump into team fights if the opposing team is pushing hard.

But they won't come out of the jungle/lane to help you gank. Farming well is the priority of hard-carries, and if there is a good farmer on your team, it's your job to drag the game out as long as you can for your carry to be strong enough to really have a huge impact on late game. It's also your job to try and not lose a 4v5 game - don't try to push rax in 20 minutes, but make sure the enemy doesn't get into your base before 40 minutes.