PDA

View Full Version : Counter picking?



Raephix
05-29-2010, 12:36 PM
Can someone clue me in on basics to counter picking. Besides the obvious to invis heroes, how do you go about counter picking other heroes? And does it make much of a difference?

dune
05-29-2010, 12:41 PM
There are very few heroes which actually are hard counters to others. I would say that it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference, but it can be useful. Pesti ultimate is very good against invisible heroes, but they can equally be countered wih Dust. Pharaoh's Wall of Mummies can shut down a Swiftblade. Electrician can use his purge to get rid of a number of buffs/debuffs.

All in all, I would say that it's better to attempt to construct a good team around a solid strategy than to attempt to counter-pick on a quid pro quo basis.

PundiLord
05-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Counterpicking gets more important as the (skill) level of your games go up.

In higher level games, especially in 'pro-games', the skill gap between players is in general much smaller and thus are the heroes and there respective abilities much more important.

I do not have the time to make a comprehensive list (and doubt I can) but I can give you a few cookie-cutter counters;

Predator counters all high-HP tanks such as Zephyr and Armadon. This is because his passive skill allows him to deal more damage as his oponnents HP increases.
Silencer counters nearly all iniators and spammers, his ultimate goes through magic immunity and can (if correctly used) turn teamfights around.
Pestilence counters all invisible heroes, as you already mentioned.

MrSmith
05-29-2010, 12:52 PM
Vindicator counters nearly all iniators and spammers, his ultimate goes through magic immunity and can (if correctly used) turn teamfights around.


I doubt OP has played DotA.

In random low PSR pubs even :bloo: is a counter to invis heroes.
:elec: counters some heroes like :dark: who relies on her buffs.
:arac: also coutners invis heroes.
:mage: countes int heroes^^ (you know what i mean)

Neru
05-29-2010, 12:54 PM
Vindicator > Chain Casters
Pestilence/Arach > Invis heroes
Predator > High HP carrys
Scout/Succ > Carrys
Mass Disable + Lots of DPS > Turtlers
Turtler team > Push strategy
Push Strategy > Ganking Team
Ganking Team > Turtlers.

ROUGHLY. HoN isn't black and white.

It's more about the rough strategy counters than specific hero counters.
You learn it from experience, and apply it as you get better.

Couchmonster
05-29-2010, 12:58 PM
TB :thun: is a hard counter to any Portkey hero.
His huge AOE of 1000 around the spell casted will make a Portkey usage nearly impossible.
Of course only when TB spams a lot, which happens a lot ;)
I faced this problem several times and it screwed a lot of PK action.

Electrician :elec: is a hard counter for Jereziah :jera: and Hammerstorm :hamm: , since his ultimate can debuff spellimmunity and Hammerstorms Ulti too.

Demented Shaman :deme: is a hard counter to Swiftblade :swif: since his heal does PHYSICAL dmg... so he can heal Swift to dead while he is spinning.

Warbeast :warb: is a hardcounter to Engineer :engi: since he is super fast and cannot be slowed by engi ulti while he uses his own (with short CD).
Also his creeps allow him to instant kill Engi Ulti as well.

Witchslayer :witc: is a good counter to Electrician :elec: since he can stun, hex, manaleech his power away.

Predator :pred: is a good counter to zephyr :zeph: , since Zephyr relies a lot on his ultimate and Predator can walk freely in it or jump after him, while gaining HP hitting zephyr.

Hammerstorm :hamm: , Panda :pand: , Slither :slit: and a lot low-mana low-cooldown heros are a good counter to Vindicator :vind: for obvious reasons. Also Vindicator hates slow very much, since he got no real escape spells and just an ulti with very high cooldown.

You can add more to this list, but I guess you get the point.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 01:01 PM
Turtler team > Push strategy
Push Strategy > Ganking Team
Ganking Team > Turtlers.
this is a generalization of the of strat vs strat, it's more complex than this trust me...

Neru
05-29-2010, 01:08 PM
this is a generalization of the of strat vs strat, it's more complex than this trust me...

Nobody's going to make an absolute list of counters etc because there isn't one, its all situational, HoN isn't black and white so a generalisation is the best there is. Whats up with criticising me today..

Headbus
05-29-2010, 01:09 PM
:pebb: counters squishy mid-game farm dependant heroes (aka :wret::pupp::souls:)
:accu: counters burst heavy lineups.
:defi: counters :engi::poll: because ult rips through polly ult and engineer ult+turret
:pand: counters many magic immune targets :pred:
:vind: counters lots of the best initiators :temp::behe::magm::phar::legi::souls::engi: as well as long channeling spells :succ::pand::vood::glac:
:ophe: counters :plag: because her creeps eat plague bounces
:behe: counters :ophe: because her creeps increase his ultimate dmg
:jera: counters many physical dps carries
:corr: counters high base dmg carries
:hell: counters initiators


Honestly the list goes on forever, each hero has strengths and weaknesses and are good in "niche" situations. Generally picking a strong lineup involves picking the heroes that can fit into any lineup first to counter any counter picking, then picking up heroes last that have known counters.

E.g

:engi:>:slit::ophe:>:corr::wret:

Picking in this order gives limited opportunity for the enemy team to counter pick.

dune
05-29-2010, 01:11 PM
Panda :pand: , Slither :slit: and a lot low-mana low-cooldown heros are a good counter to Vindicator :vind: for obvious reasons. Also Vindicator hates slow very much, since he got no real escape spells and just an ulti with very high cooldown.

o.O

Have fun being silenced for three seconds every time you flurry/ward.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 01:11 PM
Nobody's going to make an absolute list of counters etc because there isn't one, its all situational, HoN isn't black and white so a generalisation is the best there is. Whats up with criticising me today..
I wasn't, I almost lol'd from the post cus u made it sound like rock-paper-scissors xD

but turtling isn't as effective anymore :(

Neru
05-29-2010, 01:17 PM
I wasn't, I almost lol'd from the post cus u made it sound like rock-paper-scissors xD

but turtling isn't as effective anymore :(

OK sorry, thought I made it clear it was a generalisation but guess I forgot to actually write it :P And yeah, turtling still works in situations but luckily the metagame has shifted to ganking strategies with the new heroes, providing more entertaining e-sports.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 01:18 PM
OK sorry, thought I made it clear it was a generalisation but guess I forgot to actually write it :P And yeah, turtling still works in situations but luckily the metagame has shifted to ganking strategies with the new heroes, providing more entertaining e-sports.
metagame (lol)

it's more push oriented atm, shifting to ganking sorta

I think S2 will reintroduce turtling once then time comes (at least give it a minor buff)

Neru
05-29-2010, 01:21 PM
metagame (lol)

it's more push oriented atm, shifting to ganking sorta

I think S2 will reintroduce turtling once then time comes (at least give it a minor buff)

I was struggling with writing metagame but then I decided to do it and you mock me. Hmph.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 01:26 PM
oh and also certain items can counter heroes too

invis heroes can be countered by puzzlebox/wards/dust/eye
nullfire blade counters heroes like :dark: with self buffs
savage mace counters channeling heroes/ppl with evasion
mana battery/power supplies counter heroes like :slit: (a pseudo-:vind:)

basically u don't need to counter pick all the time (try to if u can, unless if team synergy is a problem) but it's best to, otherwise items can counter heroes

u'll learn how to counterpick better with more games u play, BD/BP will allow u to do this the best


I was struggling with writing metagame but then I decided to do it and you mock me. Hmph.
xD!!!

dune
05-29-2010, 01:33 PM
'Metagame' has been used so much that it's meaning has changed completely anyway ;P

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 01:36 PM
'Metagame' has been used so much that it's meaning has changed completely anyway ;P
they need to use more descriptive words xD

Neru
05-29-2010, 04:00 PM
I honestly didn't want to use metagame but its the easiest way to describe the trends of the HoN competitive scene.

Raephix
05-29-2010, 04:27 PM
Thanks for the responses.

Pandabro
05-29-2010, 05:19 PM
There are VERY few HARD counters in this game.

Example of a hard counter would be:
:vind::hell: hard counter :temp: this is one of the few simply because it's relatively impossible to not stop tempest from casting his ulti with these heroes.

There are a lot more 'soft' counters, ones that basically soften the effect of certain heroes but they don't flat out cripple the hero.
For example:
:defi::poll: soft counter :engi: because their ultis can both destroy his in a very short time.
:pand: counters :jera::pred::ShrunkenHead: all his abilities go through magic immunity but Jera has his ulti which negates a lot of Panda's damage and Pred can simply wait until Panda initiates on someone else and then rip him up.

Another soft counter is High burst against sustained damage against healing. Healing counters(:deme::soulr::accu::vood::nymp:) sustained damage (:vood::zeph::corr::slit::arma:) while burst(:pebb::pest::souls::thun::witc::pyro::blac:) counters healing and heroes built like tanks who have sustained damage counter burst (:zeph::soulr::corr::arma:).

Again, these are soft counters and skill is still a very large factor in play. This isn't pokemon :).

Couchmonster
05-29-2010, 05:28 PM
o.O

Have fun being silenced for three seconds every time you flurry/ward.

And have fun dispelling 135 mana spell with 25 mana.

pk_thunder
05-29-2010, 05:29 PM
I honestly didn't want to use metagame but its the easiest way to describe the trends of the HoN competitive scene.
playstyle

dune
05-29-2010, 07:05 PM
And have fun dispelling 135 mana spell with 25 mana.

You seem to be missing the point. You may be able to stop the Sage's Lore spam in the early game but you will get destroyed in any team fight because of his silence. Panda and Slither do not, by any means, counter a Vindicator on the basis that they have low-mana charge-based spells.

Couchmonster
05-29-2010, 08:25 PM
Ok maybe you cannot counter him in a teamfight with those heroes, but in the laning phase you will.
And a small Vindicator is a good Vindicator!
In a teamfight there is only one thing countering Vindi... high-dmg nukes... and autoattack.

So I guess it is Hammerstorm :hamm: after all.

dune
05-29-2010, 09:01 PM
So I guess it is Hammerstorm :hamm: after all.

Indeed! ^.^

Bobzone
05-30-2010, 04:52 AM
:pred: > :vind:

apot
05-30-2010, 06:45 AM
You seem to be missing the point. You may be able to stop the Sage's Lore spam in the early game but you will get destroyed in any team fight because of his silence. Panda and Slither do not, by any means, counter a Vindicator on the basis that they have low-mana charge-based spells.
actually slither is very good against vindicator because wards are usually spammed while out of range of the silence anyways, and during teamfights you basically cast two spells and autoattack

panda on the other hand sucks against vindicator =/

on a semi-related note accursed and jeraziah are very good laning against vind because you can cancel out the lore on both you and your ally by shielding them

LuckyStar
05-30-2010, 07:02 AM
It's all about counterpicking lanes. Say you're against a Glacius Swiftblade, and then you would counter with an Accursed, Demented, Soul Reaper, etc. If you're against Magmus Pyro, you would counter with Swiftblade Glacius/Demented/etc. Other than those types of counters, there's really not much to think about except picking good lanes.

billcosplay
05-30-2010, 11:28 AM
Sup with everyone saying pred counters tanks? Sure I guess he can out carry them?

He shines when facing a squishy (usually ganky) line up

Undutchable
05-30-2010, 01:49 PM
Although there Predator is a usual counter pick to tanks, in my opinion he shines versus several types of opponents.
The reason he doesn't get picked in competetive play is the same as BH, they have no team fight presence (not much, IMO) and therefore are not that useful in 5v5 teamfights. Yet 2v2, 1v1 or in a gank type of play, such as in 85% of the <1700 PSR games, he outshines versus almost every hero. Build in Shrunken, Build in Lifesteal, Build in (mini)portal key, Build in Icebrand, Build in Shield Breaker, Build in Firebrand. IMO, he got it all.

Yes, he's more of a jack of all, king nothing, but what a jack he is :smile:
Predator is good versus aoe spells of zephyr, as well as large hp pool. This is the reason he is good vs Zephyr. Other tanks might be the same case, but does not necessarily have to be the case.

As for invisible heroes, i do agree on the fact that pestilence is a good counter versus invisible heroes (ofcourse) yet there are other options to consider, which are very valid imo. Any stunner is a good counter, although there small hp pool might be a problem.

However, the hero that is by far (the/my) favorite pick versus heroes as NH, Scout, Madman, and to a certain point, heroes that pick up shroud such as MQ might do, is :legi:Legionairre:legi:

Yes, Legionaire. This is because most heroes that have build in stealth or that buy shroud, usually have low hp pool, and this is their method of escape. Yet, Legionairres taunt removes them from stealth, makes them unable to return into stealth and makes them do nothing for about 3 seconds. In combination with his whirls and his ulti which basicly triggers at 50% hp with the low hp pool those invis heroes have, he is the ultimate counter pick to such a hero.

But in general, invis heroes dont excel in pub games, imo. I still have to face that imba overpowered scout everyone refers to. Good focus and teamwork makes them squishy as a lone vindicator.

IMO, best counter vs invis heroes > wards / dust
IMO, best hero counter vs invis heroes > Legionaire
IMO, Predator > good pub hero vs 75% of the heroes

Cya

Couchmonster
06-01-2010, 03:32 PM
Sup with everyone saying pred counters tanks? Sure I guess he can out carry them?

He shines when facing a squishy (usually ganky) line up

Pred's lifeleech/dmg-skill is %-based.
So the more HP the enemy has, the more dmg he will take, and the more life Predator will receive.
Therefore predator will not die attacking high hp tank and do a lot of dmg the same time.

Pwnograhpy
06-03-2010, 05:31 AM
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=131397
Has SOME information for you.

dune
06-03-2010, 06:10 AM
A+ stuff there, Pwnography. Momumental effort!

JellySmelly
06-03-2010, 06:18 AM
Pretty much what previous posters said and counterpicking might be much complex than stated before as maybe having swift on Pyro/Magmus or Hammer lane as with good reflexes u can easy avoid the combo , or Vindi/Witch to screw up swift etc....

snae
06-03-2010, 04:06 PM
:hamm: is great counter for :vind: because he hit's hard, and galvanize purges (I dont know the right word) Sage's Lore from you and your laning partner. :)

LightRain
06-03-2010, 04:14 PM
galvanize does not remove lore from your partner, only from you

MrSmith
06-03-2010, 04:53 PM
Glvanize has a pretty high cooldown...