How does armor work?

[Kitad1]

I'm a relative newcomer to this game, not a totally newbie since I had some time in DoTA but there is still some subtleties I need to understand. I've always wondered exactly how does armor work, if I understand this I will be able to see the benefits of the armor base of heroes and items much better <3.

I know its percentual, but how exactly does it stop damage?
Does it stop magic damage? I know there is magic armor, but how do both relate?
etc.

Thank you, sry if it has been asked but I couldn't find it

[kingcomrade]

It's pretty simple. Armor gives diminishing returns and reduces physical damage only. The higher your armor #, the greater the percentage of reduced physical damage (as in, physical attacks and a few skills that explicitly deal physical damage). Magic armor works the same way. The more armor you have, the less each point of armor gives you but the more total damage it reduces.

I honestly don't understand your question. Armor reduces damage. What more is there to it, besides knowing about diminishing returns?

[Kitad1]

It's pretty simple. Armor gives diminishing returns and reduces physical damage only. The higher your armor #, the greater the percentage of reduced physical damage (as in, physical attacks and a few skills that explicitly deal physical damage). Magic armor works the same way. The more armor you have, the less each point of armor gives you but the more total damage it reduces.

I honestly don't understand your question. Armor reduces damage. What more is there to it, besides knowing about diminishing returns?

Well, I suppose that was kinda redundant as it should be pretty obvious to anyone that more armor = less damage. What I intend to inquire is how do this correlation work.

For example, if you have 20 armor, how much damage % should I expect to block, If i get another armor point... Do I block 23% insteand of 22%. If I have 100 armor, does it mean I block 100% of the hits... etc.

[Icanopen1]

Put your cursor over the armor value in game and it'll tell you exactly what reduction your armor is giving you.

[Drasha]

http://honwiki.net/wiki/Armor
HoN wiki like getting punched in the balls with knowledge.

[kingcomrade]

Honestly I wouldn't worry about the exact values. You are either getting Enhanced Marchers, Astrolabe, Frostfield Plate, or Blademail or you aren't. If you are getting DPSed down too easily, get one of those.

But yeah, mousing over will tell you.

I recall the rule of thumb is that it gives like ~3-5% per point up until 15 or 20 armor or something, then ~1% after that.

[dune]

The increase in damage reduction suffers from diminishing returns. Thus, your first armour point will give you more damage reduction (as a percentage) than your second point, the second point more than the third, the third more than the fourth and so on. Armour reduction will only affect physical attacks, i.e. the normal attacks of the creeps, heroes or pets and certain spells which deal physical damage.

Magic Armour (or Magic Resistance) is a separate stat which reduces the damage taken from spells. It, too, stacks diminishingly. IIRC, all heroes have a base magic reduction of 25%. If, therefore, you were to buy a Shaman's Headdress (+30% magic reduction) then you will get a bonus of (1 - 0.25) [100% minus your base resistance] * 0.30 [bonus resistance from Headdress] = 0.225 bonus; or 22.5%.

[Drasha]

The increase in damage reduction suffers from diminishing returns. Thus, your first armour point will give you more damage reduction (as a percentage) than your second point, the second point more than the third, the third more than the fourth and so on. Armour reduction will only affect physical attacks, i.e. the normal attacks of the creeps, heroes or pets and certain spells which deal physical damage.

Magic Armour (or Magic Resistance) is a separate stat which reduces the damage taken from spells. It, too, stacks diminishingly. IIRC, all heroes have a base magic reduction of 25%. If, therefore, you were to buy a Shaman's Headdress (+30% magic reduction) then you will get a bonus of (1 - 0.25) [100% minus your base resistance] * 0.30 [bonus resistance from Headdress] = 0.225 bonus; or 22.5%.

Even though the first point gives you more % armor reduction your 20th point does more to make you harder to kill then the first.

[lostgoat]

There is a common misconception about physical Armor. Yes, the damage reduced by every point of armor stack diminishingly. BUT, your EHP (Effective HP) increases linearly with every point of armor by 6%. So count every point in armor as an extra 6% hp against physical attacks.

Magical armor works the same, but I don't know the exact numbers for it since in DotA magic reduction used to be % based.

[Glorify1]

Armor gives diminishing returnsThis is incorrect. Every point of armor, regardless of your armor at the moment, will provide the same amount of protection. The reduction % gets lower and lower as you get more armor, but the amount of effective hitpoints it gives you is always 6%. This is because as you get higher armor, you get higher reduction. With this reduction, you require less to actually halve the damage you take. For example:

0% reduction requires 50% reduction to reduce damage by half
50% reduction requires 25% reduction to reduce damage by half
98% reduction requires 1% reduction to reduce damage by half

Each point of armor increases EHP(Effective Hit Points) by 6%. This EHP is how much damage you can absorb before dying, and is only used when calculating damage that is physical. There are spells that are physical(Pest stun, Demented shaman heal and slow).

Magical armor, from what I've been told and have comprehended work in the exact same manner as normal armor. However, obviously it only protects against spells. They provide 6% EHP versus spells per point of magic armor. Each item that you can buy is calculated in magic armor, however, I've been told it adds the same % reduction as the items in DotA.


Well, I suppose that was kinda redundant as it should be pretty obvious to anyone that more armor = less damage. What I intend to inquire is how do this correlation work.

For example, if you have 20 armor, how much damage % should I expect to block, If i get another armor point... Do I block 23% insteand of 22%. If I have 100 armor, does it mean I block 100% of the hits... etc.

To directly answer this question. Armor points provide you with % reduction, say you have 37.5% reduction. If you take physical damage, it's reduced by 37.5%. More armor will provide more reduction, but as stated the reduction decreases with higher points of armor. The common misconception is that armor is thus diminishing, but this is not the case. Each point of armor will always protect you the same amount, regardless of how much you have.

[MangDynasty]

It is very important to understand the effects of HP, armor, magic armor, lifesteal, regen etc. to maximize your heroes durability.

Glorify's post is very accurate, and armor / magic armor do not suffer from diminishing returns, only the marginal % listed in the tooltip is actually "diminishing" for each additional armor you gain.

There was an awesome thread back in the DotA Allstars forums about survivability, and when to get more HP, more armor, or evasion (talisman of evasion or butterfly/wingblade), which items to buy to max your heroes Effective Hit Points per gold cost of the item.

If I recall, in DotA if your hero had at least 2300 HP, it was always more cost efficient to buy armor than to get more HP, assuming an all physical damage game. The ideal choice for quick armor (in terms of item slots, armor/g, upgradability) was the Plate Mail, which you could eventually build to an Assault Cuirass.

While it is not difficult to break the 2.3k HP mark, especially with STR/tank heroes, it is important to remember that a lot of the damage you take will be magical, especially in AoE team fights as are common in high-level play, so just buying armor once you hit 2.3k HP doesn't always make sense.

Noticing how many of the heroes you are up against do primarily magic damage should greatly influence your decision to get a Shaman Headdress (Hood of Defiance in DotA) as it costs less than 2k and is a huge boost of both HP regen and magic armor, massively increasing EHP in a magic-dmg-heavy game. In general you should always be aware of how many nukers / stunners / magic-powerhouse enemies there are, and call to your team to assemble Shaman Headdress and/or Shrunken Head (BKB) accordingly.

Hit Points directly increase your survivability based on the % increase of HP the item gives you, which obviously helps against both physical and magical damage, and any health regeneration (lifesteal included, assuming you are free to attack) will also contribute to EHP assuming you don't die instantly -- the dynamics of the fight and hero matchup make these values vary greatly -- Arachna versus a Pyromancer who has Aggies probably shouldn't expect any EHP from lifesteal if Pyro's ult is ready to one-shot her... but if she barely survives the Pyro's trio of nukes, she might be able to win the fight by out regenning Pyro's auto-attack, it has totally happened.

Another factor is a Heart will give you 1% HP regen, which can easily be >25 hp/sec, a very non-trivial amount of regen. It will often make neutralling a net increase in HP (as will lifesteal with high-dmg heroes), and can be viewed as a very large increase in EHP if you are durable enough to make the fight last more than 20 seconds or so. Think of it this way:

Damage taken per second = Damage enemy deals per second (after all mitigation from armor / block) - your HP regen

There have been times when I have out-regenned or out life-steal'd all the damage i was taking... invincible.

When I play a STR/tank hero (let's take Pudge/Devourer as a classic example) and decide to build him PURE LATE-GAME TANK, my items in order are:

start with a couple bracers
Enhanced Marchers (they have armor, very clutch in addition to the no-clip-ability)
Shaman Headdress (Hood of Defiance) also helps prevent rot dmg as a bonus
Heart (ridiculous regen once you have some flesh str)
Plate Mail --> Assault Cuirass (too much HP to warrant getting more HP at this point)
Wingblade (Butterfly) (lol?) (evasion is a straight EHP multiplier against physical attacks, and now Devourer slaps people really fast :D )

And then you can tank the fountain...

Effective HP is an important concept and choosing your items to maximize your EHP and minimize the enemies' is key.

I remember dominating an Axe (Legionnaire) back in the day who had 2 hearts and 2 Vanguards. After I beat him I told him that he could have gotten 30+ armor instead of a second heart and he would have been 100% harder to kill (cost him less gold too). He disagreed, but whatever, his Throne died and the Tree of Life stood proud.

Pardon the wall of text. Hope something in here was useful.
-Mang

[krucifix]

Do crits bypass armor in HoN, like DotA?

[Karmashock]

Do crits bypass armor in HoN, like DotA?
I sure as hell hope not.

That would be hugely imbalanced.:mad:

High armor is a counter to DPS units... many dps units have high passive criticals. If their criticals pass armor then armor ceases to be a counter to them and the game becomes imbalanced.


Already characters like madman are ridiculous late game with their ability to steal more life then most units can deal back to him. If the armor doesn't work against him then it means every team that goes against him has to carry enough sheep sticks to keep him permanently morphed until they've managed to kill him.

[Drasha]

I sure as hell hope not.

That would be hugely imbalanced.:mad:

High armor is a counter to DPS units... many dps units have high passive criticals. If their criticals pass armor then armor ceases to be a counter to them and the game becomes imbalanced.


Already characters like madman are ridiculous late game with their ability to steal more life then most units can deal back to him. If the armor doesn't work against him then it means every team that goes against him has to carry enough sheep sticks to keep him permanently morphed until they've managed to kill him.

Go thunder bringer and just focus on harassing madman the whole game and he will be worthless. Also never play em games.

[krucifix]

I sure as hell hope not.

That would be hugely imbalanced.:mad:

High armor is a counter to DPS units... many dps units have high passive criticals. If their criticals pass armor then armor ceases to be a counter to them and the game becomes imbalanced.


Already characters like madman are ridiculous late game with their ability to steal more life then most units can deal back to him. If the armor doesn't work against him then it means every team that goes against him has to carry enough sheep sticks to keep him permanently morphed until they've managed to kill him.

I didn't need your whinging cry.

Crits bypassing armor was a:
a) limitation of the engine
b) great work around for physical DPS to counter high armor targets.

So, does it happen here in HoN?

[Drasha]

I didn't need your whinging cry.

Crits bypassing armor was a:
a) limitation of the engine
b) great work around for physical DPS to counter high armor targets.

So, does it happen here in HoN?

Your a beta tester maybe you should go i don't know test things?

[krucifix]

Maybe I was asking to see if anyone else had, before I do...

Why the condescending tone?

[Drasha]

Maybe I was asking to see if anyone else had, before I do...

Why the condescending tone?

Vary few people test things it annoys me since every one is here as a beta tester. quite sorry to have bothered you.

[Glorify1]

I didn't need your whinging cry.

Crits bypassing armor was a:
a) limitation of the engine
b) great work around for physical DPS to counter high armor targets.

So, does it happen here in HoN?

a) crits never went through armor
b) Karmashock needs to stop getting owned by underpowered heroes and qqing about it
c) end game heroes are supposed to do well late game, because guess what! they suck early game

[krucifix]

Hmm, so I see, ok thanks.

[Wylker]

People keep saying that armor value does not have diminishing returns because it always gives more EHP. This is incorrect. Each consecutive point of armor gives LESS damage resistance than the point before it. Therefore the return on additional armor is a diminishing return. EHP based on armor is a moot point when talking about the actual reduction of damage that occurs through adding one point of armor.

[Malle1]

People keep saying that armor value does not have diminishing returns because it always gives more EHP. This is incorrect. Each consecutive point of armor gives LESS damage resistance than the point before it. Therefore the return on additional armor is a diminishing return. EHP based on armor is a moot point when talking about the actual reduction of damage that occurs through adding one point of armor.Every point of armour you get does exactly as much regardless of how much armour you have when you get it (as long as you have a non-negative amount before getting it). That is not diminishing returns. Diminishing returns would, for instance, be how the bonus damage from critical strikes stacked on units in Warcraft III, where you could only have one critical strike per attack. That, combined with the fact that they were checked independently of each other made your first critical strike give a larger average bonus damage than your second.

[Karmashock]

I didn't need your whinging cry.
Nor did you get a whining cry. :rolleyes:

I didn't need your snarky and rather sad attempt at an insult. What is this, 3rd grade?

Try having a discussion sometime without immediately proving you're a douchbag.

Moving along...

Crits bypassing armor was a:
a) limitation of the engine
b) great work around for physical DPS to counter high armor targets.

So, does it happen here in HoN?
if it was "a" then it follows that HoN shouldn't allow it.

If it was/is "b" then what counter do high armor units have against high dps units with criticals? Again, it sounds like you just have to sheep stick him until he's dead.:rolleyes:
=========================================

a) crits never went through armor
That's good. They shouldn't go through armor.

b) Karmashock needs to stop getting owned by underpowered heroes and qqing about it
I'm not "qq"ing about anything, your leetness. :rolleyes::)

In fact, you're likely agreeing with my central statement about criticals... so I don't see why you're pissing and moaning about it.


Seriously... why are you people turning this into a flame war? It's unnecessary and ultimately... It's STUPID. What is the point? It's like entering a conversation and then immediately farting.

You're not going to win any points just by being disgusting. If you have an argument, then make it without the immature flaming. I feel like I'm in the world of idiocracy with this crap.


As to madman, he's initially weak but you must admit he has a good list of abilities and scales very well. Any game that goes on for awhile that he's a part of is going to see a very dangerous mad man. This is even if your team has generally been doing better then the other team.

Now doubtless in the world of his leetness games don't go on that long and if they do you deserve to get eaten by the madman. But as not everyone is playing those games the point isn't really relevant.

If I open a statement about this with something like "in clan matches" then you might have a point. But I didn't... and you don't.


c) end game heroes are supposed to do well late game, because guess what! they suck early game
It's not a question of them doing well, it's a question of them being almost impossible to stop regardless of how well farmed your mid game or early game heroes are... If the game for whatever reason drags on and on then there doesn't seem to be anything you can do but concede.


Am I wrong? That's a real question to you... If your team had a bunch of early and mid game heroes and for whatever reason the game dragged on and you didn't end it. Would you just concede when heroes like mad man started their inevitable rise? What would your counter be?


Please try to offer something constructive that would be useful to the pubs. :)

Love and peace, Karmashock.

[chiakoni]

People keep saying that armor value does not have diminishing returns because it always gives more EHP. This is incorrect. Each consecutive point of armor gives LESS damage resistance than the point before it. Therefore the return on additional armor is a diminishing return. EHP based on armor is a moot point when talking about the actual reduction of damage that occurs through adding one point of armor.

No, the actual reduction of damage is a moot point. To illustrate with game terms...

Let's say you have a hero with 1000HP and 0 armor. Let's say you are tanking a hero that does 100DPS in physical damage.
1000/100 = 10 sec til death

Now you bought yourself plate mail and have 1000HP and 10 armor. 10 armor is 38% damage reduction. So now that hero that was doing 100DPS to you is doing 62DPS.
1000/62 = 16 sec til death

Now imagine you bought yourself a second plate mail and have 1000HP and 20 armor. 20 armor is 55% damage reduction. BUT WAIT, THE FIRST 10 ARMOR GAVE 38% THE SECOND 10 IS ONLY GIVING 17% MORE REDUCTION DIMINISHING RETURN FDSJKLLKJAFLKJAFKLAJLK?!
No. The hero that was doing 100DPS with 0 armor and 62DPSwith 10 armor will now be doing 45DPS with your 20 armor.
1000/45 = 22 sec til death

So yes, it diminishes if you look at it the wrong way. Going from 10sec to live to 16 is a bigger % jump than 16 to 22. Going from 100DPS to 62 is a bigger % jump than 62 to 45. That is irrelevant when you look at the actual numbers though because each individual point of armor (or each plate mail in this case) improves your time to live by the exact same as the one before it. Saying the bonuses diminish would be like saying hey, going from having $10 to $15 is a 50% increase, therefore it's better than going from $15 to $20 because that's only a 33% increase!! $5 is $5.


Am I wrong? That's a real question to you... If your team had a bunch of early and mid game heroes and for whatever reason the game dragged on and you didn't end it. Would you just concede when heroes like mad man started their inevitable rise? What would your counter be?.

If the game dragged on and you didn't end it, you either did it wrong or they did it better. There's no counter, you lost. I've personally several games that should've been easy wins (mass aoe/nuke/pusher lineups, 2 lanes down, 25+ kills more than the other side) solely due to one really good player on Madman that managed to live long enough to get the 3 items he needed to destroy our team and solo a rax in 15 seconds. That isn't the game's fault, our failure to end it was bad play and their ability to farm and survive long enough was superior play. Concede and learn to play better.

[Karmashock]

There's no counter, you lost.
Everything should have a counter besides "end the game before that hero levels".:rolleyes:

that's just silly.


So fine... Looks like my strategy of just sheep sticking everything in sight until dead is the only way to go.:rolleyes:


I've personally several games that should've been easy wins (mass aoe/nuke/pusher lineups, 2 lanes down, 25+ kills more than the other side) solely due to one really good player on Madman that managed to live long enough to get the 3 items he needed to destroy our team and solo a rax in 15 seconds. That isn't the game's fault, our failure to end it was bad play and their ability to farm and survive long enough was superior play. Concede and learn to play better.
It's goes without saying that I disagree. Though in any case I have my solution. ;)


Sheepsticked mad man are meat. :D