Whirlpool rework

[BlacRyu]

Kraken's ultimate is an awkward ability that is usually hard to pull off, and isn't all that effective without a very organized team with specific hero's. Most of the time it is nearly useless unless you buy a portal key and blink into the enemy team just before the ultimate goes off. In the middle of a large fight, it is pretty much always useless. It seems somewhat odd for the delay on his ultimate to decrease with each level, as although the timing is a little easier, it lowers the amount of distance you can relocate the enemy hero's, which is only slightly negated by increased casting range. That being said, I think Whirlpool is a fun and unique ability, it just needs to become more useful through a bit of tweaking. Thus I propose there should be a small rework of his ultimate that makes it less situational, and more useful to the team. It doesn't have to be my idea, but something needs to be changed.

So, here are some ideas:

Current Whirlpool

Description:
Kraken forms two connected whirlpools, one at the target location, and one around himself. After a short time, the whirlpool near Kraken sucks everyone in and spits them out at the targeted location. Enemies are damaged in the process.

Range: 750/1000/1250
Radius: 350
Mana cost: 200/250/300
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Delay: 6/5/4 seconds
Damage: 150/225/300

---------------------------------------------------------------------

New Whirlpool Ideas

Description:
Kraken forms two connected whirlpools, one at the target location, and one around himself. After a short time, the whirlpool near Kraken sucks everyone in and spits them out at the targeted location. Enemies are damaged and slowed (or stunned) in the process.


Range: 750
Radius: 350
Mana cost: 200/250/300
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Delay: 4/5/6 seconds or when the skill's hotkey is pressed again
Damage: 100/150/200
Slow: 20%/25%/30% for 5 seconds or
Stun Duration: 1 second

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Ideas:
1. (Poll option #2): When casting his ultimate, nearby units will slowly be pulled towards Kraken, with the pull getting stronger the closer the unit is to him (kind of like Tempests ultimate or puppet master's strings, but a weaker pull and without any disabling.) This could also have a slight spiral effect where the enemies are pulled in a counter/clockwise direction around Kraken while at the same time being pulled in towards him.
note: This effect could either pull just enemies, or both enemy and allied units.


2.
Just change the animation that after the enemy got sucked they will pop out of the exiting whirlpool the same as how kunkka blast his enemies upward with his skill, that animation will be the 1 sec stun. Note: For those who don't know who Kunkka is, here (http://www.playdota.com/heroes/admiral#skill235) is his hero page, and here is a picture of his skill, Torrent:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_PvNE9xUmHBQ/SOsfMKaYC5I/AAAAAAAAAXQ/DRF14vmQ_o8/s400/kunkka+skills+1+pict+edit.JPG


3.
As for the timer on Whirlpool, I've had an idea.

At all levels (1,2,3) Whirlpool will last 7 seconds. At level 1, it will only go off after 7 seconds (like it is currently).
At level 2, you will be able to choose when the ability fires, between 5 and 7 seconds. Ie, you get to choose when the ability goes off, in that 2 second gap (So you still need to wait the 5 seconds like currently, but you get to choose after that when the Whirlpool retracts).
At level 3, you can choose when the ability fires after 3 seconds. So between 3 and 7 seconds, you can choose when the whirlpool retracts.

I think that's the best way for the ability to be fired. You get to choose, while also still having that short "cool down".

You could even put the spell on "auto-cast" so that like currently, it will immediately fire after the timer. So, the level 3 Whirlpool will immediately fire after 3 seconds. This way simply gives us choice, and choice is a good thing.



You may think that with these changes, Whirlpool would be too hard to escape, but do realize that this is an ultimate ability. Many other hero's have single-target skills that are even harder to escape, which are not ultimates and have much lower cooldowns.

Whirlpool is like an ulti version of Kunkka's X marks the spot. So commanding when to pull them to target would be a good start.



Poll: If you like more than one of the rework ideas, then vote for the one you want the most and then make a reply with exactly what you would like to see. A vote for any of the first three options is a vote for the skill to be reworked/buffed.

Of course you should base your decisions on the concepts, not the numbers, S2 can balance those later. Basically these changes allow the player to decide exactly when the teleport will occur, and sacrifice some damage to allow it to disable the enemies for a short time. All of these things don't need to be changed at once, but I think Whirlpool needs at least the reversed delay time and the ability to teleport on demand for it to be a truly useful ultimate.



Anyways, what do you think? I'd be happy to change/add to it if I see any good ideas in the replies, or if you don't like mine you can propose your own rework of his skill and I'll copy it into this post.

[BlacRyu]

Whirlpool boo.
Ravage yay.

That is all.




...
Couldn't hurt to read a little bit more than just the title =x. Just read the colorful parts.

[BlacRyu]

He was also talking about a reason to actually *want* to level whirlpool.

He was also talking about integrating a stun into the whirlpool effect, this is simply a step towards making it ravage.

Therefore, why not cut out the middle-man and go ravage all the way?

The end.





...Cool story bro.


And actually I'm not too sure about the stun, it's really the ability to time the skill yourself that I think it really needs.

[BlacRyu]

It takes all of 2 brain cells to make a post. You have to have a breakdown in communication between them to be unable to post a comment without citing an internet meme in the first few sentences.

That being said, people who do that lose all credibility, instantly.

The prosecution rests.




...
The same goes for posting in the third person and putting a large number of newlines in every post for no reason. At least my brain is sane.

[ShadowX22]

If the devs as S2 are unwilling to port Ravage over, might as well give a minor stun at the end of Whirlpool to make Whirlpool more useful.

[BlacRyu]

If my competence is in question, I simply direct the attention of an unbiased third party towards the posts within this thread.

It would take , once again, all of 2 minutes to determine which one of us has the mind of a child and which one does not ;)
What does this have to do with Whirlpool. I didn't post this thread to get into an e-fight. If any third party gets involved it will be a moderator and I will be asking him to remove this spam from the thread.

[Pi1]

Whirlpool is like an ulti version of Kunkka's X marks the spot. So commanding when to pull them to target would be a good start.

[Atsuko]

Stun would make it OP. Current whirlpool only needs a slight damage increase and the duration increased in levels 2 and 3.

[BlacRyu]

Stun would make it OP. Current whirlpool only needs a slight damage increase and the duration increased in levels 2 and 3.
I already reduced the damage to compensate for the small stun, but I'll reduce the stun duration a bit more so it doesn't seem OP. Like I said though the stun isn't really that important. It could be replaced with a slow or more damage, but like I said I think what his skill really needs is the ability to pull on command.

[Memphis_Doom]

If my competence is in question, I simply direct the attention of an unbiased third party towards the posts within this thread.

It would take , once again, all of 2 minutes to determine which one of us has the mind of a child and which one does not ;)





...

EMOTICON! ZOMG! *TOUCH TOUCH*

The stun is not needed. Maybe a small cripple effect of -X% movement speed?

[willtsay]

imo no need for a stun, as memphis said a cripple effect might work, that and a little bit more damage, 300 is so pitiful XD, although i really could care less if this ult had 0 damage so long as you could tell it when to pull the enemy team back.

[BlacRyu]

EMOTICON! ZOMG! *TOUCH TOUCH*

The stun is not needed. Maybe a small cripple effect of -X% movement speed?
Added possibility of slow to the first post.


imo no need for a stun, as memphis said a cripple effect might work, that and a little bit more damage, 300 is so pitiful XD, although i really could care less if this ult had 0 damage so long as you could tell it when to pull the enemy team back.
I don't want everyone posting how overpowered it is, that's why I lowered the damage. Like I said though people should look at the concept not the numbers.

[Atsuko]

I already reduced the damage to compensate for the small stun, but I'll reduce the stun duration a bit more so it doesn't seem OP. Like I said though the stun isn't really that important. It could be replaced with a slow or more damage, but like I said I think what his skill really needs is the ability to pull on command.

I would support a slow with the current damage.

The ability the pull in at command would also be nice; a tad OP, but what else isn't these days.

[BlacRyu]

I would support a slow with the current damage.

The ability the pull in at command would also be nice; a tad OP, but what else isn't these days.
Well all the hero's can't be OP. That would mean they were all stronger than all the other hero's, lol. It does have a 200+ mana cost, and I still think it'd be nothing compared to some hero's ulti's such as Tempest's or Behemoth's ultimates.



Edit: Added another Idea to the first post:
When casting his ultimate, nearby units will slowly be pulled towards Kraken, with the pull getting stronger the closer the unit is to him.

This would help prevent people from simply walking away from you and would probably replace my idea of being able to teleport on command.

[Kaylel]

I think whirlpool is just fine the way it is. Only thing I would ever add to it is increased MS while active, that way you can rush at the enemy team. Used properly it can cause a true stun, where the people you just grabbed have a second or two to adjust to their new location.

[BlacRyu]

I think whirlpool is just fine the way it is. Only thing I would ever add to it is increased MS while active, that way you can rush at the enemy team. Used properly it can cause a true stun, where the people you just grabbed have a second or two to adjust to their new location.
That's what his charge skill is for =P. Though what I put in my last post (pulling nearby units) would have a similar effect.

[krucifix]

He was also talking about a reason to actually *want* to level whirlpool.

He was also talking about integrating a stun into the whirlpool effect, this is simply a step towards making it ravage.

Therefore, why not cut out the middle-man and go ravage all the way?

The end.





...

Because it's a simple no skill massive AoE stun? As somebody else mentioned in a previous discussion thread, with Tidehunter, you simply gave him to your least skilled player, get him to ulti on command and profit.

I like the slow effect, I think there's already too much stun in the game, and if more dota heroes are ported, it could get a bit silly. I was thinking of making Whirlpool "Drench" all enemy heroes it hits, but distributing the damage between the enemies. Kind of like Moon Queen's ulti, with the relocation. Enemy units aren't debuffed, just relocated.

ie:
L1 Whirlpool: Enemy heroes are hit by 3 Drench's. Heroes can be effected by a maximum of 1 Drench.
*So if 1 hero is hit, it's just like casting Drench, and relocating.
*But if 4 heroes are hit, they'll take 3/4 damage of a normal Drench, each.

L2 Whirlpool: Enemy heroes are hit by 5 Drench's. Heroes can be effected by a maximum of 1 Drench.
*So you can do a full enemy pull, and effect the whole team with the "AoE Drench"

L3 Whirlpool: Enemy heroes are hit by 8 Drench's. Heroes can be effected by a maximum of 2 Drench's.
*So if you catch 1 - 4 heroes, they'll be hit for 2 Drench's worth of damage.
*If you catch all 5, they'll be hit for 1.6 Drench's worth of damage, each.

---
The "pull back on command" is definitely needed too. And the duration of the buff should go in the reverse order to what it currently does.
It should be short at L 1, and getting longer for L 2 -3.


Working with your other idea (which I wouldn't add on top of mine, but it's a good idea in it's own right):
Perhaps instead of pulling unit's in (as, if you think about Tempest's ulti, that would mean disabling), the Ulti could slow the run speed of enemy units in the radius of both Whirlpools, slowing by a larger % the closer to the middle they are.

[BlacRyu]

Working with your other idea (which I wouldn't add on top of mine, but it's a good idea in it's own right):
Perhaps instead of pulling unit's in (as, if you think about Tempest's ulti, that would mean disabling), the Ulti could slow the run speed of enemy units in the radius of both Whirlpools, slowing by a larger % the closer to the middle they are.
Yeah I didn't mean for it to disable them, but now that I think about it my idea would have to add an acceleration factor to unit's movement, and the physics of it might be a little more complicated than this type of game would allow. But yeah simply slowing the enemy based on distance would work just as well.

[krucifix]

Not too sure about that actually, I just thought about Puppetmaster's Hold... Doesn't that do what you suggest?

[megacannibal]

It takes all of 2 brain cells to make a post. You have to have a breakdown in communication between them to be unable to post a comment without citing an internet meme in the first few sentences.

That being said, people who do that lose all credibility, instantly.

The prosecution rests.




...

Judge Judy featuring how the brain works and the wasting away of extra brain cells due to thinking. Tomorrow 7/8c on FOX.

[BlacRyu]

Not too sure about that actually, I just thought about Puppetmaster's Hold... Doesn't that do what you suggest?
That's true.

[Slardar]

This would help out quite a bit but I agree give us ravage back D:
I luvs me ravage lol

[BlacRyu]

This would help out quite a bit but I agree give us ravage back D:
I luvs me ravage lol
Ravage was alright, about as simple of an ult as you can get though. We just need to give Whirlpool a chance, I have faith that it will be a really fun skill in the end :)

[Aristobulus]

I really like the idea of Whirlpool drenching people it catches and having a "sucking" effect somewhat similar to Tempest's ult. Would certainly make alot more sense.

[knowitall]

I really like the idea of Whirlpool drenching people it catches and having a "sucking" effect somewhat similar to Tempest's ult. Would certainly make alot more sense.

A small slow added to Kraken's side of the whirlpool would definitely make it much better for catching enemies. Maybe even a slight pull.

[BlacRyu]

I really like the idea of Whirlpool drenching people it catches and having a "sucking" effect somewhat similar to Tempest's ult. Would certainly make alot more sense.
Yeah, kind of like how a real whirlpool works :rolleyes:

it's not bad idea, but ravage > all .p

[Zak]

make whirlpool shoot up torrents like knukkah.. ultimately turning it into RAVAGE

[YunaSummoner]

it's not bad idea, but ravage > all .p

Because with just one click of a button you stun the whole screen yes? :rolleyes:

I really like the consept of whirlpool and that it actually requires a bit more skill to use then ravege. This sugg got my full support.

[Shino]

I like the people get sucked into the whirlpool the closer they are to you...
A whirlpool is a whirlpool. It does fancy things like that :D

The concept of it slowing slightly at reduced damage is ok as well. Whirlpools spin you around. Fancy fancy things :D

[Disgaea]

Bumped for great suggestions (except ravage, why not just pick keeper of the forest if you want such a skill)

[Devilhate]

I like this suggestion but may i ask is the range implying the max range the WP Spawn to WP Teleport might have? GAH there's the fountain suck idea destroyed --

[Damage]

I agree. Stun for 1 second would be preferable. And yes, make it so you can have it go off when you press r again.

[AndrewReily]

Whirlpool already, (if used in the right way) is pretty damn good.

I do agree that the time needs to be backwards though, but adding a stun or slow makes it cheap.. the whole thing is that it relies on other people having a stun or slow in aoe to drop once he brings it back. Kinda like DS's vaccuum on dota.

[BlacRyu]

I like this suggestion but may i ask is the range implying the max range the WP Spawn to WP Teleport might have? GAH there's the fountain suck idea destroyed --
No it's just the casting range for setting the other end of the whirlpool, no changes there from what it was before.



Whirlpool already, (if used in the right way) is pretty damn good.

I do agree that the time needs to be backwards though, but adding a stun or slow makes it cheap.. the whole thing is that it relies on other people having a stun or slow in aoe to drop once he brings it back. Kinda like DS's vaccuum on dota.
Yeah, but do realize this is a 200-300 mana cost ultimate with a 2 minute cooldown. As it is right now I don't think it's nearly as useful as many other ultimates with similair cost, many of which can drop a whole team if used correctly. Krakens ultimate on it's own is incapable of dropping anything. Also I lowered the damage to compensate for the added status effects.

[Maxter1]

I would rather have it with a 1s stun, so it can be used with conjunction to ultimates with casts, like say Soul Stealer or Magmus

[Felby]

his ulti is already ridiculous with portal key and charge, it just requires some effort and team coordination

[Sufferr]

Srsly IMO go ravage ! ...
even new whirlpool isn´t as good as ravage IMO..

that´s all.

[BlacRyu]

his ulti is already ridiculous with portal key and charge, it just requires some effort and team coordination
It's nowhere near as ridiculous as Behemoth, Tempest, or Magmus with a portal key, all of whom's ultimates have disables and deal considerably more damage.

[TomatoBisque]

It's nowhere near as ridiculous as Behemoth, Tempest, or Magmus with a portal key, all of whom's ultimates have disables and deal considerably more damage.

The entire point of Kraken's ult is to group their entire team up for your team to hit their entire team with the full brunt of those ults, or, failing that, split their team by a distance of about 2000-3000 units, meaning it's more like a 2-3 v 5 followed by a 2-3 v 5.

[BlacRyu]

The entire point of Kraken's ult is to group their entire team up for your team to hit their entire team with the full brunt of those ults, or, failing that, split their team by a distance of about 2000-3000 units, meaning it's more like a 2-3 v 5 followed by a 2-3 v 5.
Yes, I didn't say that his skill can't shine in certain situations, but overall its utility is nowhere near as good as the other skills I mentioned, which are useful in almost any situation against any number of enemies. Krakens ultimate is ONLY useful as an initiation tool, this is what I'm trying to change. Even Devourer's hook can be used as a 400 damage nuke in the middle of a fight.

[Boduar]

Should at least have a snare after it sucks everyone back and it would be nice to be able to activate the sucking back effect earlier than the designated time so that you dont need perfect timing to get that one hero.

[lilb]

Krakens ultimate is an akward ability that is hard to pull off, and isn't all that useful without a very organized team with specific hero's. Most of the time it is nearly useless unless you buy a portal key and blink into the enemy team just before the ultimate goes off. In the middle of a large fight it is pretty much useless. It seems somewhat odd for the delay on his ultimate to decrease with each level, as although the timing is a little easier, it lowers the amount of distance you can relocate the enemy hero's, which is only slightly negated by increased casting range. Thus I propose there should be a rework of his ultimate that makes it less situational, and more useful to the team. It doesn't have to be my idea, but something needs to be changed.

So, here's my proposal:

Current Whirlpool

Description:
Kraken forms two connected whirlpools, one at the target location, and one around himself. After a short time, the whirlpool near Kraken sucks everyone in and spits them out at the targeted location. Enemies are damaged in the process.

Range: 750/1000/1250
Radius: 350
Mana cost: 200/250/300
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Delay: 6/5/4 seconds
Damage: 150/225/300

---------------------------------------------------------------------

New Whirlpool

Description:
Kraken forms two connected whirlpools, one at the target location, and one around himself. After a short time, the whirlpool near Kraken sucks everyone in and spits them out at the targeted location. Enemies are damaged and slowed (or stunned) in the process.


Range: 750/1000/1250
Radius: 350
Mana cost: 200/250/300
Cooldown: 120 seconds
Delay: 3/4/5 seconds or when ultimate hotkey is pressed again
Damage: 100/150/200
Slow: 20%/25%/30% for 5 seconds or
Stun Duration: 1 second

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Of course you should base your decision on the concepts, not the numbers, S2 can balance those later. Basically these changes allow the player to decide exactly when the teleport will occur, and sacrifice some damage to allow it to disable the enemies for a short time.

Anyways, what do you think? I'd be happy to change it if I see any good ideas in the replys, or if you don't like mine you can propose your own rework and I'll copy it into this post.



Other Ideas:
• When casting his ultimate, nearby units will slowly be pulled towards Kraken, with the pull getting stronger the closer the unit is to him (kind of like Tempests ulti, but weaker and without any disabling).
or if that's not possible, simply slow units near Kraken based on how close they are to him.



no.....
just change it back to an aoe stun it was an awesome ulti that is all

[BlacRyu]

no.....
just change it back to an aoe stun it was an awesome ulti that is all
You don't need to quote the entire post.


I'm surprised how many people adamantly loyal to DotA even play HoN. If you want to play DotA then play DotA, if you want to play HoN then prepare yourself to expect some changes. I think Whirlpool is a cool, unique idea and is much more interesting than a simple "big stun". People need to give it a chance, let it shine!

[ubachung]

I think Whirlpool is a cool, unique idea and is much more interesting than a simple "big stun". People need to give it a chance, let it shine!

Fair enough, but why do we have to appreciate new abilities at the cost of the ones we have come to know and love over years of playing DotA?

I really like all the new abilities in this game. However I think it would have made a lot more sense to put all these new abilities on new heroes, instead of changing the heroes that everyone who has played DotA is familiar with.

[Daaadom]

Add a Command to pull the whirlpool !

Switch the duration time 4/5/6 !

Add a 20%/25%/30% slow !

Add 50 Damage to all Levels !

Then it is fine !!!

[BlacRyu]

Fair enough, but why do we have to appreciate new abilities at the cost of the ones we have come to know and love over years of playing DotA?

I really like all the new abilities in this game. However I think it would have made a lot more sense to put all these new abilities on new heroes, instead of changing the heroes that everyone who has played DotA is familiar with.
Well personally I'd be happy if they didn't port any more hero's from DotA and just started fleshing out pure new content. I've been playing DotA for years and eventually it does get tiring playing the same hero's over and over. I think it's exciting getting to see fresh new content even if it has to be rebalanced, they've got a whole team to do that so things should move much faster than they do in DotA. I know some people really like DotA and still like all the old hero's, but like I said DotA is still there and it isn't going anywhere, you can still play it as much as you want to. HoN is it's own game and I would like to see it be a little more independent. I realize this is just my opinion though, and if S2 wants to replace Whirlpool with ravage I can't stop em, but I hope they don't and I really doubt they will.



Add a Command to pull the whirlpool !

Switch the duration time 4/5/6 !

Add a 20%/25%/30% slow !

Add 50 Damage to all Levels !

Then it is fine !!!
You tell em !

[lilb]

You don't need to quote the entire post.


I'm surprised how many people adamantly loyal to DotA even play HoN. If you want to play DotA then play DotA, if you want to play HoN then prepare yourself to expect some changes. I think Whirlpool is a cool, unique idea and is much more interesting than a simple "big stun". People need to give it a chance, let it shine!

ur a dumb ****..... the whirpool is ****ing usless so shut ur dumb **** mouth k? and its not about being loyal to dotA idiot, its about the fact that a "BIG STUN" is a fkn good skill? ever thought of that ****wit?

ps.... i'll quote what ever i want

[krucifix]

ur a dumb ****..... the whirpool is ****ing usless so shut ur dumb **** mouth k? and its not about being loyal to dotA idiot, its about the fact that a "BIG STUN" is a fkn good skill? ever thought of that ****wit?

ps.... i'll quote what ever i want

lolumad?

Big stun, boring.
Whirlpool, 'give it a chance'.

:)

[lilb]

lolumad?

Big stun, boring.
Whirlpool, 'give it a chance'.

:)

yes im so mad?
Big stun boring, no not really....big stun is also useful?
whirlpool 'give it a chance'? how bout its in the game already and its useless so yeah i dunnos w/e its not gonna get changed anyway so no point of even discussing it.

[krucifix]

Well it's not going to be changed to Ravage (I expect tweaks), because as others have noted in this thread, it's useful with a good team, while useless in a pug.

Big stun, boring.
Whirlpool, useful and unique.

[Watever]

It's useful if the team can coordinate properly aka. an organized game. Adding in a small stun and the ability to trigger the return yourself would be welcome tho.

[lilb]

Well it's not going to be changed to Ravage (I expect tweaks), because as others have noted in this thread, it's useful with a good team, while useless in a pug.

Big stun, boring.
Whirlpool, useful and unique.

sorry dude whirlpool is useless in every aspect its not unique its just stupid just coz it looks "COOL" doesn't make it unique idiot and its no way near as useful as a BIG BORING STUN. So yeh i love idiots!

[ToxicBlossom]

The spell is actually quite useful..

You have more than enough options with it and it's great as a team and solo spell. Always love dropping it right behind a tower and then charging and pulling someone back, slowing them at the tower. I think the best combo I've gotten myself into with it was with Nymphora. Casting the Whirlpool at our Fountain just before her group Teleport goes off, getting Teleported on top of enemy Heroes and them dragging them back to the Fountain.

There are lots of great and unique (and exploitable) things you can do with Whirlpool that you cannot with Ravage. You just need to get into the swing of its use.

[Gangbangjoe]

whirlpool + tempest ftw. or armadon

[krucifix]

sorry dude whirlpool is useless in every aspect its not unique its just stupid just coz it looks "COOL" doesn't make it unique idiot and its no way near as useful as a BIG BORING STUN. So yeh i love idiots!

It's obvious what kind of player you are. Nothing more to say.

[Daaadom]

It is so ... there are players that like "one-click" heroes and will never
get to a higher gameplayskill level (like our friend here)
and there are players which like
more micro and skill depended heroes, i think that it is necessary to
give whirlpool a buff and also the whole hero need some tweaks
(Mana cost/base armor) ... and his passive needs some minor buffs
(25-30%) but i like Kraken, nice concept and unique style .... gj !!!

[Brad1]

I like the idea of being able to click the hotkey again to activate it and that the duration goes up with levels. With an added slow, I think that this makes the ability usable.

[lilb]

It's obvious what kind of player you are. Nothing more to say.

obviously a better one then you, why dont people get it, the old stun was way better......... this whirlpool crap is **** compared to the stun, the whirlpool can also **** on your own team if you port 5 aoe heroes with you bye bye team!

sooo..... yeah u do the math.... but yeah ur obviously so good dude...

ps ur bad and ur a fat nerd irl lulz!

[YunaSummoner]

obviously a better one then you, why dont people get it, the old stun was way better......... this whirlpool crap is **** compared to the stun, the whirlpool can also **** on your own team if you port 5 aoe heroes with you bye bye team!

sooo..... yeah u do the math.... but yeah ur obviously so good dude...

ps ur bad and ur a fat nerd irl lulz!

Whoooa calm down a little maybe? Yes it´s quite obviously stupid to port 5 AoE heroes to your team but then you could try to avoid doing so?

The only reason why the old stun is better is because it was a 5s stun I.W.I.N button that required little to no skill at all to use. Whirlpool actually requires you to have some coordination within your team to use successfully and that you think before using it.

[RockoSkum]

i think reverse and add 1 sec the duration time add a trigger and a slow

something like that

[BlacRyu]

lilb I don't mind people opposing ideas but there is no need for rude and disrespectful comments. Giving feedback is fine but please, stop acting childish or I will ask a mod to remove your posts.

[Darkstrand]

A much needed improvement!

T-up

[BlacRyu]

Changed the last idea to pull them in a spiral pattern around Kraken for even more whirlpool-ness :)

[lilb]

Whoooa calm down a little maybe? Yes it´s quite obviously stupid to port 5 AoE heroes to your team but then you could try to avoid doing so?

The only reason why the old stun is better is because it was a 5s stun I.W.I.N button that required little to no skill at all to use. Whirlpool actually requires you to have some coordination within your team to use successfully and that you think before using it.

Okay let me see here, so you and the rest of the people would choose a ulti that can work on maybe two or three people rather then a big AOE stun?? just because the whirlpool looks cool? oh and requires more skill you say?

there's nothing more to say, flashy moves that look cool obviously require more skill then a BIG AOE stun amrite?

tbh i was being a dick before when i was saying it was useless, but in most situations it is, in a rare occasion it might be good but i'd prefer a big ass stun over the whirlpool any day since the big stun is just better for competitive play.

[lilb]

lilb I don't mind people opposing ideas but there is no need for rude and disrespectful comments. Giving feedback is fine but please, stop acting childish or I will ask a mod to remove your posts.

oh and ps i dont care remove all u want....................LIFE IS OVER BRO!

[BlacRyu]

Okay let me see here, so you and the rest of the people would choose a ulti that can work on maybe two or three people rather then a big AOE stun?? just because the whirlpool looks cool? oh and requires more skill you say?

there's nothing more to say, flashy moves that look cool obviously require more skill then a BIG AOE stun amrite?

tbh i was being a dick before when i was saying it was useless, but in most situations it is, in a rare occasion it might be good but i'd prefer a big ass stun over the whirlpool any day since the big stun is just better for competitive play.Not perfect, but this is a much better post. The problem of it being situational is the main reason I started this thread in the first place. As far as ravage being better for competitive play, I completely disagree. In the right hands (and after a rework) I think Whirlpool can be much more effective than Ravage.


oh and ps i dont care remove all u want....................LIFE IS OVER BRO!
This post however, not so good. Not to mention rule #1 of forum etiquette is no double/multi-posting.

[krucifix]

I think with enough tweaks Whirlpool will be very useful.

The slow idea (or suck in) on the initial cast, making it retractable at will, and slowing enemy heroes once it's popped, would make the spell extremely useful.

[BlacRyu]

I think with enough tweaks Whirlpool will be very useful.

The slow idea (or suck in) on the initial cast, making it retractable at will, and slowing enemy heroes once it's popped, would make the spell extremely useful.I think so too. I tried not to make it TOO useful to the point of being overpowered, but I think that's mostly decided by the numbers. Also I don't know if they would add ALL of these changes, but hopefully they will consider at least one or two. I think it really needs it, and so far I don't think anyone has posted saying Whirlpool is fine as it is.

[BlacRyu]

bump

[YunaSummoner]

Okay let me see here, so you and the rest of the people would choose a ulti that can work on maybe two or three people rather then a big AOE stun?? just because the whirlpool looks cool? oh and requires more skill you say?

there's nothing more to say, flashy moves that look cool obviously require more skill then a BIG AOE stun amrite?

tbh i was being a dick before when i was saying it was useless, but in most situations it is, in a rare occasion it might be good but i'd prefer a big ass stun over the whirlpool any day since the big stun is just better for competitive play.

And where in my post did I say that I want it because it looks cool? That´s right nowhere, and everything except thunders ulti requires more skill then a HUGE AOE stun.

[BlacRyu]

And where in my post did I say that I want it because it looks cool? That´s right nowhere, and everything except thunders ulti requires more skill then a HUGE AOE stun.
I don't think it really even looks that cool. Now if it had better water effects with reflections and waves that looked realistic, that would be sexy. :)

[class]

lilb is right, lmao.

[BlacRyu]

I'll probably add a poll to this soon so if anyone else has new ideas let me know.

[BlacRyu]

Been busy with school recently so I haven't been playing/browsing the forums as much, but I finally got around to adding a poll to this. I'm not sure if it can be changed later if I made a mistake or there are any more ideas, but I suppose I could always just make a new thread if it were really needed.

[PoopyDesires]

Small stun + Hotkey-activated sounds good to me.

[BlacRyu]

Personally I like the idea of pulling nearby units in a spiral towards Kraken the most. Along with that I think it should get the activate by hotkey, and of course it needs the reversed delay times and maybe some nerfs to casting range and/or damage to balance it all out.

[Killroy]

Right now there is no reason to level whirlpool. Hell, I only even get it at level 13 in certain games which doesn't sound right for an ultimate. The idea itself is great, the visual is great, its effectiveness can be great but it requires a lot of coordination. The fact is though that whirlpool is suffering from a ravage fever. Ravage was by far one of the best ultimates in dota. Then again this is not dota and to be honest I am glad that kraken doesn't have the one click wonder ultimate. I am against big AoE stuns. This is making HoN far more interesting although chain stunning is still very possible.

Whirlpool however needs a buff, that is sure. The 50 damage per level is a good start. And a hotkey to say when you are going to pull and we are set. Nothing more needed.

[BlacRyu]

Whirlpool however needs a buff, that is sure. The 50 damage per level is a good start. And a hotkey to say when you are going to pull and we are set. Nothing more needed.
Actually the original skill has more damage than what I proposed :p, but that's because I was compensating for all the things I was adding to it.

If the only thing they change is the hotkey activation then yeah the damage could go back up, but I would hope that if they do implement that feature that they would also reverse the automatic delay on the skill so that it increases instead of decreases when leveled up.

[Aristobulus]

I'd like to point out that for all the talk about how Kraken's ult can do amazing things because it can teleport an attacking enemy team into your fountain...

The fountain is incredibly, stupidly weak as well. Even at level 1, you can generally only reach enemies with your fountain as a destination, when they are attacking, at the furthest, the very edge of your base towers.

Generally, by the time a team is pushing you that far, they are decently leveled and farmed and not weak. Which means that, even if you pull off the very amazing thing that makes Kraken's ult so amazing and not in need of a buff, the fountain is too weak to really do much. The enemies will quickly run out of the range of the fountain and not take much damage. A good bit of the teleported enemies will take no damage, because the fountain will only target one guy.

So, without a buff to the fountain, Kraken's ult is even worse.

[Battle_Fury]

i don't understand whirlpool. i mena i get the mechanic, but the theory of a giant whirlpool of AIR around kraken sucking him and friends to an arbitrary spot on land? how the **** does it make sense even. at least for Reverse Polarity they explain it's mystic and is not suppose to make sense, and furthermore, is a star trek refence....

[Battle_Fury]

Small stun + Hotkey-activated sounds good to me.

true

[ubidat]

Make whirlpool like puck's ulti, but a whirlpool effect! :P

-ubi

[littlemason]

I think that it should also silence along with damage and maybe a slow, because if you travel through a whirpool, you just ate a ton of water so you shouldn't be able to cast spells for like a second or two.

[BlacRyu]

I think that it should also silence along with damage and maybe a slow, because if you travel through a whirpool, you just ate a ton of water so you shouldn't be able to cast spells for like a second or two.
Something like that. His drench skill slows you, and you would think being sucked into a whirlpool would get you more drenched than having a bucket of water thrown on you. I'm not sure about a silence, but I guess it makes more sense than a stun.

I definitely think a slow would fit the skill well though, since you don't want to bring everyone together only to have them scattered again within a second.


i don't understand whirlpool. i mena i get the mechanic, but the theory of a giant whirlpool of AIR around kraken sucking him and friends to an arbitrary spot on land? how the **** does it make sense even. at least for Reverse Polarity they explain it's mystic and is not suppose to make sense, and furthermore, is a star trek refence....
Yeah it is a little odd, but I've seen it in other games before where you get sucked into one whirlpool and spit out of another one. Whirlpools in video games are like the wormholes of the ocean.

[_Archangel_]

Hahahahahaha most votes for the last option. Not surprised. Ravage plox

[J0k3]

Just read the topic name and the poll options, none of the replies but heres my thoughts

I loved the ultimate of Tidehunter, but if they are gona put it in instead of whirlpool thing, they have to remove his charge skill or he will be alittle too strong imo

[Kizaru]

People who think whirlpool is useless are stupid its a great spell to set up ez ganks just get shroud or blink ulty then blink in or ulty and invis run in and have smart teammates sit and wait like tempest and u can kill a whole team
and if u made whirl pool can be activated by pushing r again do u know how many ppl would QQ and say how imba it is

[tootsie2]

Whirpool isn't that difficult to land. It requires as much skill/item as using Tempest, Magmus, Behemoth or Treant's ulties.

A huge difference between it and the others mentioned above: It can split Teams into smaller groups, grantin time enough to kill the smaller part without their team mates able to help. If some sort of stun or root was added, this would be a sure killer.


What i like to see on this ulti would be
-a reason to lvl past 1 (mainly for the time it takes to 'suck')
-a timer or an option to manually do the sucking
-adjusted damage/mana consumption/side effect (attack slow debuff, armor debuff, manadrain, slow while whirling, whatever) to bring some sort of usefulness to it despite from innitiating in a gank, any reason to use it in a 1vs1 situation maybe


I'm not a big fan of any kind of stuns. Permabash and AoE-Stuns are the worst possible.

[riWWE]

lol, I think kraken owns with whirlpool, never loose. its bloody awesome. u yust, put it by ur team mates then u yust charge their asses, and then bamm u have ur awesome gabnk, where u want it to take place. and with blink, they wont eaven understand why they disapear.

[matchbow]

making a poll for almost exclusively uncoordinated pub players will almost certainly provide ridiculously skewed results. kraken's ult at the moment is one of the best ults in the game. when it hits, you win the team fight. it's actually that cut and dried. there is no way to lose a team fight with good heroes and coordination when whirlpool hits. you split up the other team allowing you to kill half their team, and then kill the rest of make then run and wait for their teammates to respawn and regroup. it's also an amazing ganking tool immediately at level 6 since you can pull people who aren't going to engage you into tower, which does great damage at that low level. add to that the fact that kraken is magic immune while doing his charge, and you get the most important hero hands down, in any game

[tommos]

oh noes a ulti that requires timing and effort to pull off!!! lets change it to a generic aoe stun!

whirlpool is fine and has a fun mechanic. leave it.

[ElementUser]

Hahahahahaha most votes for the last option. Not surprised. Ravage plox

That's because exact DotA Ports are clearly superior to most remade skills :D

[Grimace]

Guys, I just played a game against Kraken, and in my opinion, whirlpool does not need to be buffed at all. Ever. Let me explain.

They also had Tempest on their team. So Kraken would suck us up (1-3 at a time, depending on where we were) and Tempest didn't even have to buy a blink dagger. Double ult win.

I imagine the same thing would happen with Behemoth's or KotF's ultimate. Please don't improve it...

[BlacRyu]

Hahahahahaha most votes for the last option. Not surprised. Ravage plox
Note that all the other votes combined are basically votes for Whirlpool to stay. Currently 65% want Whirlpool and 35% want Ravage. In the end it's up to S2 and I hope they wont remove Whirlpool just because people haven't yet grown to love it as much as the DotA alternative. But I do hope they change something, as currently 90% of people want some kind of change.



Guys, I just played a game against Kraken, and in my opinion, whirlpool does not need to be buffed at all. Ever.
One game experience does not justify a balance decision at all. Ever.

[jeppew]

Pulling units in and/or slowing while it's activated seems fine, it's abit too hard to land the ulti atm. also keeping the duration fixed on each level would be nice.

i didn't vote for hotkey activated because it could very easily be broken, using portal key to AoE teleport units distances up to 2450 instantly, without there being much you can do about it.

[Josh92]

if you can't land the ulti with a blink dagger you are bad

it would be ridiculous if it also sucked people in

[Vodka]

Ravage, while boring, was a good skill that made Tide a fearsome initiator. Kraken's ult just makes people stun him or run back = no good.

[BlacRyu]

if you can't land the ulti with a blink dagger you are bad

it would be ridiculous if it also sucked people in
How would it be ridiculous? If you are going to go with the portal key method of just waiting until the last second to blink in, then there wouldn't be any time for it to suck anyone in anyways.The whole idea behind this thread was to make the skill more useful in more situations. If any skill requires an item just to make it useable/useful, then the hero is obviously lacking some required skill synergies.


Ravage, while boring, was a good skill that made Tide a fearsome initiator. Kraken's ult just makes people stun him or run back = no good.
This is what I'm trying to get fixed. Or at least the part about simply being able to run back. Like I've said many times, at least let S2 try to balance out his skill before simply throwing it away.

[Trysaeder]

Multiple choice poll please. Wanted both 1 and 2 but chose 2.

[_Archangel_]

People who think whirlpool is useless are stupid its a great spell to set up ez ganks just get shroud or blink ulty then blink in or ulty and invis run in and have smart teammates sit and wait like tempest and u can kill a whole team
and if u made whirl pool can be activated by pushing r again do u know how many ppl would QQ and say how imba it is

It's completely unviable if your opponents have any AoE powerhouse of their own (Tempest, KotF) because seeing as your own team is sucked in also after your Whirlpool spits everyone out they will pwn you. It's as much of a liability to your own team as the enemy

[Kulmis]

I really like idea of whirpool it need just more work.


Nukes cost too much, 2 talisman of exiles is must in early game.
Incinerate starting manapool or lower casting cost.


Passive need some buff too.

[BlacRyu]

Multiple choice poll please. Wanted both 1 and 2 but chose 2.
I thought about it but I decided there would probably be too many kids who would think it would be funny to vote for everything. This way they are forced to make a decision.

Like I put in the first post:
If you like more than one of the ideas then vote for the one you want the most and then make a reply with exactly what you would like to see.



I really like idea of whirpool it need just more work.
I think so too. :)



Nukes cost too much, 2 talisman of exiles is must in early game.
Incinerate starting manapool or lower casting cost.

Passive need some buff too.
I'd have to suggest you use a different thread if you want to talk about Kraken's other skills, or the hero in general. This thread is just focused on his ultimate ability.

[BlacRyu]

Bumpthis.

[Hat_Truck]

Whirlpool boo.
Ravage yay.

That is all.





...
This.

[krucifix]

It's completely unviable if your opponents have any AoE powerhouse of their own (Tempest, KotF) because seeing as your own team is sucked in also after your Whirlpool spits everyone out they will pwn you. It's as much of a liability to your own team as the enemy

Wow, you REALLY don't understand how Whirlpool is used in a game.

[zhatan]

Atm whirlpool is a laugh. Im happy to play vs kraken, with ravage you fear Leviathan.

[Kaizen`1]

The option from 4/5/6 seconds as well as the ability to whirlpool whenever is the best idea here.

[A1ias]

tbh i reckon if you increase the aoe of the spell around kraken and make it so heroes effected by the whirlpool is spun around in circles around kraken without being disabled or stunned, it would make for an interesting and disorientating ult. you could probably add a secondary effect to it and play around with the aoe/mana cost/cd to balance it out

[Temenius]

Well personaly i like whirlpool that if used right, you can combo nicely with other heroes. But seriously it need some buff, voted for stun! Btw, does blinking cancel whirlpool channeling? Like tele with Nymph did :D

[krucifix]

Btw, does blinking cancel whirlpool channeling?

No, that's how the spell is designed to be used.

As for the timer on Whirlpool, I've had an idea.

At all levels (1,2,3) Whirlpool will last 7 seconds. At level 1, it will only go off after 7 seconds (like it is currently).
At level 2, you will be able to choose when the ability fires, between 5 and 7 seconds. Ie, you get to choose when the ability goes off, in that 2 second gap (So you still need to wait the 5 seconds like currently, but you get to choose after that when the Whirlpool retracts).
At level 3, you can choose when the ability fires after 3 seconds. So between 3 and 7 seconds, you can choose when the whirlpool retracts.

I think that's the best way for the ability to be fired. You get to choose, while also still having that short "cool down".

You could even put the spell on "auto-cast" so that like currently, it will immediately fire after the timer. So, the level 3 Whirlpool will immediately fire after 3 seconds. This way simply gives us choice, and choice is a good thing.

[Efertin]

If Kraken kept his current skills and got Ravage instead of Whirlpool, I'd say he'd be severely overpowered, I mean, he'd be such an amazing AoE hero, initiator and a ganker all in one package, and he can tank decently as well.

They should either make Whirlpool pull people towards him kinda like black hole, or just ditch the spell for something else that is not Ravage.

[BlacRyu]

No, that's how the spell is designed to be used.

As for the timer on Whirlpool, I've had an idea.

At all levels (1,2,3) Whirlpool will last 7 seconds. At level 1, it will only go off after 7 seconds (like it is currently).
At level 2, you will be able to choose when the ability fires, between 5 and 7 seconds. Ie, you get to choose when the ability goes off, in that 2 second gap (So you still need to wait the 5 seconds like currently, but you get to choose after that when the Whirlpool retracts).
At level 3, you can choose when the ability fires after 3 seconds. So between 3 and 7 seconds, you can choose when the whirlpool retracts.

I think that's the best way for the ability to be fired. You get to choose, while also still having that short "cool down".

You could even put the spell on "auto-cast" so that like currently, it will immediately fire after the timer. So, the level 3 Whirlpool will immediately fire after 3 seconds. This way simply gives us choice, and choice is a good thing.
Interesting idea. I think it might be a little too complicated, but I'll add it to the first post.

[Fantasy111]

Bottom line is either rework Krakens ult, or give us ravage back. It's just really bad...

[Lews]

imo Whirlpool should give Kraken a buff that gives him an advantage after the whirlpool goes off.

[BlacRyu]

imo Whirlpool should give Kraken a buff that gives him an advantage after the whirlpool goes off.I suppose that could work, but I can't really think of any buffs that would fit the skill.

[CosmicJ]

I've seen whirlpool used effectively a number of times and it really causes chaos. It just seems like one of those ultis that takes a bit more practice to master.

[BlacRyu]

I've seen whirlpool used effectively a number of times and it really causes chaos. It just seems like one of those ultis that takes a bit more practice to master.
It does have its uses, but not nearly as many as most ultimates.

[Doikor]

I like whirlpool as it is. It's a nice gamebreaking ultimate with portal key and proper timing.

Unlike andromedas ultimate you can pull ppl far enough with it that their team cant do anything to help (evin if they have portal keys) + you dont have to suicide yourself.

[shinkotsu123]

I love whirlpool and kraken is my most favorite character. his combo skills is way easy to use hes like a fisherman in game. just as your enemies are a bit far off use whirl pool on the specific location where all of yor allies are then dash within your enemies ranks after being sucked in along with all the enemies and it'll be eating time.

I agree with the added timer instead of the lowering timer in each level. I agree with the stun just like kunkka. Just change the animation that after the enemy got sucked they will pop out of the exiting whirlpool the same as how kunkka blast his enemies upward with his skill, that animation will be the 1 sec stun.

Love the combi with behemoth or tempest.

[BlacRyu]

Just change the animation that after the enemy got sucked they will pop out of the exiting whirlpool the same as how kunkka blast his enemies upward with his skill, that animation will be the 1 sec stun.I like that idea, adding it to the first post.

And taking it a step further, the effects of Torrent are:
Damage: 120/180/240/300
30% Slow: 1/2/3/4 seconds
and units are disabled for 1.53 seconds at all levels (while they are in the air).

They could basically just take Torrent and apply it to the end of Whirlpool.

[pinkt4l1ty]

If my competence is in question, I simply direct the attention of an unbiased third party towards the posts within this thread.

It would take , once again, all of 2 minutes to determine which one of us has the mind of a child and which one does not ;)





...
If any of you had the mind of a child it'd be you, your posts are just useless.

On topic tho: Ravage > Whirlpool any day.

[BlacRyu]

On topic tho: Ravage > Whirlpool today.Fixed.

I don't know how you can say Ravage is better than Whirlpool before giving them a chance to balance it out. Saying Ravage > Whirlpool only supports my argument that Whirlpool needs a buff.
It's not until Ravage = Whirlpool (in terms of power) that you can say you like one better than the other.

[jeppew]

i don't think whirlpool needs and effect or something like that, the problem is that you can't use it often enough, with a huge manacost on a hero with manaproblems and a 2 minute cooldown.

just scale down manacost and cooldown as you level it, especially cooldown. If it was lowered to a minute at level 3 it would be awesome.

[Cathy]

That's why i like Tidehunter, coz of ravage xD

[shinkotsu123]

Its not a problem really. My technique in the beginnins at level 6 I would have level 3 dash level 2 attri and level 1 whirl pool. My mana will be about 360 and the total cost will be just about 335. Just bring a bottled flying monkey with you to replenish quickly.

I always place my whirl pool behind my tower and dash at the upcoming enemy or at least an enemy about 1000 away. My enemies always panic when I suck them in and never bother to counter me :D

[iOP1]

Whirlpool Fail Train.
Ravage Win Bus.

Close Thread. /and Whirlpool is too hard to pull off in a regular pub game. (IMO)

[Sauron`]

I like the whirlpool idea. ravage doesn't make any sense really. i mean he is the kraken. but whirlpool needs to suck them in and do mini-stuns OR slows. because right now it's basically near useless

[BlacRyu]

Whirlpool Fail Train.
Ravage Win Bus.

Close Thread.

I don't know how you can say Ravage is better than Whirlpool before giving them a chance to balance it out. Saying Ravage > Whirlpool only supports my argument that Whirlpool needs a buff.
It's not until Ravage = Whirlpool (in terms of power) that you can say you like one better than the other.




/and Whirlpool is too hard to pull off in a regular pub game. (IMO)Which is exactly what I'm trying to get fixed.

[MARCUS]

Really nice post. I love Kraken but his ultimate just seems like a huge Gimmick more worthy of a normal skill (if it deals less damage) than a level 6/11/16.

I wouldnt mind an aoe stun instead but I think we already have a lot of that. I think a Dota Centaur thing might work better where:

Level 1 - Adds +12 Strength.
Level 2 - Adds +24 Strength.
Level 3 - Adds +36 Strength.

This would also secure his role as either tank or a very viable dps similar to Barathum. I also think his charge should slow slightly.

I would like Splash, Tsunami Charge, Whirlpool, New ulti.

[DtMage]

imo Whirlpool should give Kraken a buff that gives him an advantage after the whirlpool goes off.

Could be nice, let's say his passive aoecleave skill "Splash" would proc every hit for 5sec after whirpool has sucked you and others to targeted location.

[BlacRyu]

'oly crap third page = bump time

[BlacRyu]

herp derp bump

[Surtr52]

Ravage, end of discussion.

[jeppew]

just fix his awful mana problems and make the ulti actually worth spending points into. and please don't bring back ravage, it made Tide into a one-button-wonder that was only picked because of his ultimate.

[BlacRyu]

Sad that Kraken saw no changes in the big patch other than a bug fix :(. I'm sure they'll get around to him eventually though, since it seems about 90% or more of the community thinks he needs to be changed/buffed.

[Surtr52]

just fix his awful mana problems and make the ulti actually worth spending points into. and please don't bring back ravage, it made Tide into a one-button-wonder that was only picked because of his ultimate.

Uh.. Tree?

[Bui]

Use whirlpool in base, post haste out to fight, portal key on the enemies. ??? profit.

[BlacRyu]

Uh.. Tree?Imo tree's eyes are worth more overall than his ult.


Use whirlpool in base, post haste out to fight, portal key on the enemies. ??? profit.
There is a max range on it, above which it will just fizzle away. This is why nymph-kraken combo isn't viable. Fountain pulling is pretty fun though, especially if you have a Behemoth to block off the exit.

[Sadomeso]

havent voted yet cause i think he needs more than one of those options

first of all a slow or a little pull when its active
second that the aoe of the animation is similar to the real aoe, if its not cause it seems so
third the possibility to decide when you suck them in BUT:
the aoe is increasing with outrunning time
and a little 1 to 1,5 second stun after all sucked in

but with that stun im not so sure, cause a good placed ulti can be so confusing

[White2]

the poll says it all.

[BlacRyu]

the poll says it all.
Just because Ravage has the most votes doesn't mean it's in the majority, as I've said before, A vote for any of the first three options is a vote for the skill to be reworked/buffed. Currently that makes it 55.11% for a rework, 36.45% for Ravage, and 8.43% to leave it as it is.

I am kinda surprised how many people hate whirlpool though.

[Idejder]

Doubt you are getting Ravage so easily. I am going to be working on Whirlpool and Kraken as a whole soon, including possibly giving him a cool SotM upgrade.

[Fantasy111]

Doubt you are getting Ravage so easily. I am going to be working on Whirlpool and Kraken as a whole soon, including possibly giving him a cool SotM upgrade.
I don't get why you ported a bad version of Tidehunter though. I mean you gave him 2 nukes that blow basically all of his mana in one go. The only other hero I know that can do that is Pebbles, but he does easily 2x the damage Kraken can dish out with his lame abilities...nd I won't even begin with Whirlpool.

Tidehunter was balanced just the way he is, so why change him into something terrible?

[jeppew]

Doubt you are getting Ravage so easily. I am going to be working on Whirlpool and Kraken as a whole soon, including possibly giving him a cool SotM upgrade.

AWESOME

[Idejder]

I don't get why you ported a bad version of Tidehunter though. I mean you gave him 2 nukes that blow basically all of his mana in one go. The only other hero I know that can do that is Pebbles, but he does easily 2x the damage Kraken can dish out with his lame abilities...nd I won't even begin with Whirlpool.

Tidehunter was balanced just the way he is, so why change him into something terrible?
Yes, the things you mentioned are the things I am going to be looking at, good job! Only without the negative nonsense you decided to throw in. Don't drink the haterade just because you miss your screenwide instant stun.

[Xastin]

can we make whirlpool screen wide?

[Lethe]

A question #1, what is sotM?

Question #2, very slightly related, but tDL suffers from the same problems as kraken in terms of multiple spells and low base mana, any buffing intended?

[Passthechips]

Sotm = Staff of the Master, I can't personally wait, as I love playing as Kraken.
I hardly see him used and enjoy surprising enemies with a nicely placed Whirlpool + Tempest.

To the people who want Ravage back. Really? I mean REALLY? So you want a screen wide aoe stun. An ability that takes no skill or thought process in any shape or form to be added, just because Whirlpool is not useful in every situation and is not a lawl stun? Whirlpool is a great idea that needs a bit of added functionality to make it slightly less situational. This update to Kraken will obviously address that.

The only thing we should be complaining about is his splash ability. A passive with hardly any synergy with the rest of his skills. Most of the time I take stats over it.

[Arigatex]

change it so it throws enemies caught on random positions in a 1600-ish area around the kraken :D sort of bermuda triangle team-spreading tool...who likes it?

[SyKot]

I find Whirpool to be a very hard spell to pull off. Im yet to see a whirpool that does some serious wreckage (besides fountaints whirpools), Tempest ult with just a mere more 60 secs of CD is much easier to use and more devastating imo.

[Tehleteness]

nevermind

[BlacRyu]

Thx for the replies Idejder (and for kicking ass), glad to see he'll be getting some attention. I think Kraken's got a lot of potential and I can't wait to see what changes will be made :).

[willtsay]

Idejder totally kickz ass >:]

tidehunter.. ravage was definitely OP :P easily the best initiation (or the easiest)

that plus kraken shell man, kraken shell was ridiculously good imo. made tidehunter > disables. its like Tidehunter doesnt get disabled by a debuff. The debuff gets disabled by tidehunter.

[Dakrul]

I'd be in favor of a slowing effect attached too Whirlpool, it'd definitely make his ultimate a lot more useful.

Although I'd prefer too see the mechanics of how it works changed; I like it takes a bit of skill too pull of a good whirlpool.

[Typhusux]

Kraken is one of my favorite heroes, and there is some nice changes submited here. But I'm a bit disapointed by the result of the vote, and I think some of the voters aren't quite experienced with this hero.

First of all, his ulti is WAAAAAAY more interesting than tide's Ravage. Why replacing an ultimate that requires skills for something that is a no-brainer? It only needs some tweaking rather than being replaced. Right now, the n1 problem of this ulti is its unriability. You can escape easilly, and when you cast it there is sometimes no way to tell if there will still be people standing where you're aiming. Also, it's very difficult to pull specific players and avoid others (ex : Jereziah or any zone stunner). Make the whirpool pull heroes sure is cool, and helps a bit preventing people from escaping, but it doesn't help with reliability.

On the other hand choosing when to activate the ability DOES making it much more reliable. When you see the right targets are in the area of effect, pull the trigger and they're trapped. It would also help giving the spell an usage in escape, when you're trying to pull toward the base allies heroes running away, since in this situation you don't help them that much reaching safety faster because of the time between cast and effective teleportation. If you can choose when to TP, you will also avoid most of the time TPing ennemies with the guys you're trying to save.

Now, the other major issue with whirlpool is that the ultimate doesn't scale with level. Right now it's not worth leveling. Adding a slow that would increase with level is a good way to solve it, although that change alone wouldn't make Krakken's ulti as good as it should be for something with that manacost.

[Kankanka]

I agree that Kraken needs attention. His spells are way too costy and his passive is really dull and lacks any kind of synergy with his other spells. A random chance on getting a splash is just (imho) bad and hopefully gets remade into something more (fun &) fitting. Regarding his ulti, I could easily see them attaching some kind of a snare to it aswell as increasing its duration but giving the option to hit 'R' again to suck all within range in (albeit with a greater radius, way lower mana cost and shorter cd?)

Anyway glad to see S2 is working on him, such a cool hero as Kraken, really needs to be brought up :cool:

[BlacRyu]

Kraken is one of my favorite heroes, and there is some nice changes submited here. But I'm a bit disapointed by the result of the vote, and I think some of the voters aren't quite experienced with this hero.

First of all, his ulti is WAAAAAAY more interesting than tide's Ravage. Why replacing an ultimate that requires skills for something that is a no-brainer? It only needs some tweaking rather than being replaced. Right now, the n1 problem of this ulti is its unriability. You can escape easilly, and when you cast it there is sometimes no way to tell if there will still be people standing where you're aiming. Also, it's very difficult to pull specific players and avoid others (ex : Jereziah or any zone stunner). Make the whirpool pull heroes sure is cool, and helps a bit preventing people from escaping, but it doesn't help with reliability.

On the other hand choosing when to activate the ability DOES making it much more reliable. When you see the right targets are in the area of effect, pull the trigger and they're trapped. It would also help giving the spell an usage in escape, when you're trying to pull toward the base allies heroes running away, since in this situation you don't help them that much reaching safety faster because of the time between cast and effective teleportation. If you can choose when to TP, you will also avoid most of the time TPing ennemies with the guys you're trying to save.

Now, the other major issue with whirlpool is that the ultimate doesn't scale with level. Right now it's not worth leveling. Adding a slow that would increase with level is a good way to solve it, although that change alone wouldn't make Krakken's ulti as good as it should be for something with that manacost.Completely agree :)

[windirein]

First of all, the current kraken is better than his original, leviathan.
His earlygame power increased alot because he has 2 damaging spells of which one can be used as escape mechanism/chase mechanism too.
Also this new kraken actually has skill synergy unlike old leviathan who pretty much only did ult and then /afk in teamfights.

If I were to change krakens ult Id change it because its incredibly imba as it is right now.
We are talking about the best initiation ability in the game right here and he doesnt even need a dagger to set it up.
Blackhole pales in comparison and the fact that most here dont seem to see that sorta proves that you guys just started playing this game and never really played dota.

If icefrog ever changed leviathan to be as brilliant as in HoN currently the official forums would be drowning in "nerf"-threads.

[BlacRyu]

First of all, the current kraken is better than his original, leviathan.
His earlygame power increased alot because he has 2 damaging spells of which one can be used as escape mechanism/chase mechanism too.
Also this new kraken actually has skill synergy unlike old leviathan who pretty much only did ult and then /afk in teamfights.

If I were to change krakens ult Id change it because its incredibly imba as it is right now.
We are talking about the best initiation ability in the game right here and he doesnt even need a dagger to set it up.
Blackhole pales in comparison and the fact that most here dont seem to see that sorta proves that you guys just started playing this game and never really played dota.

If icefrog ever changed leviathan to be as brilliant as in HoN currently the official forums would be drowning in "nerf"-threads.Damn, looks like we were wrong guys (well okay, only 93% of us), alright everyone time to head over to the nerf Kraken thread. Btw, where is that darn thread? I can't seem to find it.


But srsly, if it's like you say and Kraken really is that OP, please post some video's or something of you owning with him. Like I said in the other Kraken thread:
Wind, it's pretty obvious you played a game against him and lost. Considering you only have 10 games played I'm guessing you haven't actually used him much yourself, try him out in a few games and you'll see why he needs a buff.

[Real_Wolf]

tidehunter tanked better.

Tidehunters ultimate was much better for initiation (harder - impossible to dodge, similar to tempest).

Tides mana pool was better, due to the lower number of high cost mana skills, and that allowed him to build better, without having to worry nearly so much about his mana. A bottle sufficed, while on kraken a bottle doesn't give him nearly enough to drench, charge, and ulti

[windirein]

Damn, looks like we were wrong guys (well okay, only 93% of us), alright everyone time to head over to the nerf Kraken thread. Btw, where is that darn thread? I can't seem to find it.


But srsly, if it's like you say and Kraken really is that OP, please post some video's or something of you owning with him. Like I said in the other Kraken thread:

I exclusively play heroes that are changed/new in HoN and ive played kraken a couple of times.
The thing is if youre playing in a team full of retards, and thats what going to happen 90% of the time in pubs, krakens ult might seem weaker than his old one.
If you blink in and used the old ult, everyone would be stunned.
Even the retards posting in this forum here would immediatly grasp "hey he just stunned all of them, lets join in the fun and cast some spells too".
With his new ult that isnt the case.
You have to combo it properly.
But hands down, its the best initiation ability in the game, best combo ability too.
All you need is a competent team and krakens ult is autowin.
Imagine a kraken sucking half your team next to an ulting magmus, moon queen, behemoth, legionair, tempest, soulstealer etc.
If youre a noob and so is your team youre obviously gna suck with kraken.
But u gna suck with every other hero too then.
His concept always was initiation and not tanking btw.
Whoever says leviathan was a tank never played dota.
Leviathan initiated with blinkdagger+ult and then contributed nothing to the following fight.
He isnt a tank because no one would bother attacking him after he used his ult when hes left to autoattack with mediocre damage at melee range.
Saying that he sucks now because he is less tankish while he actually never tanked before either is plain dumb.
He is still the same initiator just that his new ult paired with his new dash skill does an even better job.
He doesnt even need to farm blinkdagger anymore if youre smart enough, so thats 2k cash right there to improve whatever youre lacking atm, likely to be mana.
Ive seen really bad krakens so far, but Ive also seen krakens who knew how to use him and therefor decided the game single handed, just with his ult.
But what am I tellin you, you guys probably charge into a lone hero and then ult and wonder why he isnt dying.

Oh and before I forget it: having 15/3 stats at the end doesnt mean you "pwned" as a kraken. Youre not supposed to get any kills with your skillset.
Youre supposed to win the teamfights for your team, prolly leaving you with a shitload of assists and quite a few deaths, but nonetheless your team will win thx to you.

[BlacRyu]

Really amazes me how you seem to think you are more experienced than and continually insult the entire HoN community. As much as I'd like to I'm not even gonna bother trying to argue with you. I don't think I really need to anyways.

[TheTipper]

A LOT, of people seem to believe here that Kraken could benefit from a small stun of some sort. Whether that be from charge or whatever.

I thought of a decent idea to bounce around is what about a .3 sec ministun with Krakens crit splash? (Like Pestilence passive) This way Kraken does not receive a full stun, but also does not make him irrelevant. This may help people get over Kraken shell as well.

[windirein]

Really amazes me how you seem to think you are more experienced than and continually insult the entire HoN community. As much as I'd like to I'm not even gonna bother trying to argue with you. I don't think I really need to anyways.

Yeah, because thats all thats left between the constant facepalming when reading the posts here.
We got people here discussing the balance of heroes that have been existing for years. FOR YEARS.
Suddenly people call viable/strong heroes weak and vice versa.
If you ever played dota for a few years you would most definatly agree with me when browsing through this forum.
The comments made by most of the users here are downright hilarious.
Im not more experienced than most when it comes to HoN "experience", but seeing that the heroes, the gameplay, the items, the tactics, the mechanics and and and are the same like in dota, a game ive been playing for ages and where I claim to be pretty good, then I simply know my reasoning is likely to be more on the mark than that of someone who just randomly got invited to the beta via a friend and never touched dota before.

I know which hero works with what combo, I know what items to get on what hero and how to play him, for every single one there is.
If you havent pld dota (you being a general term, not pointing at anyone specific) you can claim to have a slight clue of HoN when you played every hero in HoN for at least 40-50 times.
I have pld the counterparts of those heroes for hundreds and hundreds of times.
Thats not bragging or anything, Im merely pointing out a fact.
So yeah, Im pretty sure Im more experienced than most here, just judging from the post.
Because when someone complains about devourer being a weak earlygame hero while hes actually a 100% conversion of pudge who is a great earlygame hero, than I already know he either never played the game or doesnt have the slighest clue in general.

Id also like to point out that I showed a friend whos been playin dota competetively for years kraken and how his ult worked.
First thought: "wow, thats completly off the shards.
Thats like venges ult in aoe...but better"

And yeah, thats essentially it.
Krakens ult is venges ult (cant remember anyone ever calling her ult weak or underpowered), but it can hit more than 1 hero, it damages those heroes and it doesnt put kraken in the position of venge after casting, i.e. in the middle of the enemy team.
If this hero stays like this, he WILL see competetive play in the full version of HoN, depending on what other insane heroes they add ofc.
Blinkdagger+shivas and its literally gg.