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View Full Version : Looking for insight on one gone-wrong match



Vins
05-14-2010, 02:43 PM
1180006 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1180006)

:pand::pupp::poll::engi::slit:
vs
:jera::thun:fayde:chip::vood:

If anyone would be kind enough to review the match or at least the picks and items and take a shot at explaining to me why the game turned upside down at some point, we had strong lanes (:pand::slit: & :engi::poll: and were scoring kills on both and I won my mid against :thun:)

I even had doubts about getting harkon's as puppet because of jereziah, but I went for it anyway.

I think it all went downhill once fayde got farmed, but still I feel we should be able to take him out since he's only a soft carry.

Insight, please.

Fang
05-14-2010, 04:01 PM
I watched it at 8x speed and skipped:nymp: around but from what I noticed:

-Game lasted too long. You had a ton of pushing power, but didn't put it to efficient use. Your team got weaker the longer it went on, even if you were doing fine yourself.
-As the carry, you didn't farm enough. You didn't have to be at every team fight. Fayde was off freefarming while you were having standoffs with the other team, which should've made pushing towers even easier. You should've done the same, letting your pushers do the actual pushing. You could've easily been 25 by the 40 minute mark with your core items if you were farming more.
-Can't say I agree with your choice/use of items. Bottle seemed unnecessary, your Shrunken Head was generally used for fleeing, and the Harkon's was gotten far too late to make a difference, where your team was starting to fall behind.
-Homecoming Stones should be used more. I think I used eight in my last game which lasted like, 40 minutes.
-Ward of Revelations for Fayde, perhaps.

And on that note, I personally thought you were losing at mid. TB was last-hitting more consistently even with his terrible attack animation and short range. You probably could've harassed more and even scare him out of range, though ending up getting the advantage due to his failed gank at level 5.

You probably would've won if you ended it earlier though, everyone was definitely doing fine in the early/mid game.

Vins
05-14-2010, 04:53 PM
I watched it at 8x speed and skipped:nymp: around but from what I noticed:

-Game lasted too long. You had a ton of pushing power, but didn't put it to efficient use. Your team got weaker the longer it went on, even if you were doing fine yourself.
-As the carry, you didn't farm enough. You didn't have to be at every team fight. Fayde was off freefarming while you were having standoffs with the other team, which should've made pushing towers even easier. You should've done the same, letting your pushers do the actual pushing. You could've easily been 25 by the 40 minute mark with your core items if you were farming more.
-Can't say I agree with your choice/use of items. Bottle seemed unnecessary, your Shrunken Head was generally used for fleeing, and the Harkon's was gotten far too late to make a difference, where your team was starting to fall behind.
-Homecoming Stones should be used more. I think I used eight in my last game which lasted like, 40 minutes.
-Ward of Revelations for Fayde, perhaps.

And on that note, I personally thought you were losing at mid. TB was last-hitting more consistently even with his terrible attack animation and short range. You probably could've harassed more and even scare him out of range, though ending up getting the advantage due to his failed gank at level 5.

You probably would've won if you ended it earlier though, everyone was definitely doing fine in the early/mid game.

You're absolutely right, I only used shrunken to escape because someone else was always doing a good job initiating and that helped me not to die and save gold/time. I didn't carry tp stones because it was unlikely they were going to backdoor, they couldn't survive a team fight without one of them, and, well, they didn't backdoor.

It's true that I need to farm more as a carry, it's one of my main issues. I try to stack ancients with my helmed creep, not every minute obviously, I tend to forget about it.

The reason I tried to participate in many teamfights because the puppet is so useful in them with his effective cc and an instagib nuke, and I wasn't confident in my teammates' ability to kill, as I saw them having trouble in our offensive lane.

You summed it up nicely, thanks. Though I still need to learn when to recognize the time to change strategy.

p.s. I considered my mid game as a win because I denied more effectively and the only reason I didn't harass was that I know :thun: power of harassing with bigass huge lightning crits from the sky in a huge range, that's why I stayed back. But he didn't play that way... I would've. When my nuke takes half your hp from a long range you're going to hide behind that tower a lot.

p.p.s. I don't know why you're suggesting I shouldn't have got bottle. It's a good way to quietly get runes and refresh early game.

Jayrod
05-14-2010, 05:10 PM
1180006 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=1180006)

:pand::pupp::poll::engi::slit:
vs
:jera::thun:fayde:chip::vood:

If anyone would be kind enough to review the match or at least the picks and items and take a shot at explaining to me why the game turned upside down at some point, we had strong lanes (:pand::slit: & :engi::poll: and were scoring kills on both and I won my mid against :thun:)

I even had doubts about getting harkon's as puppet because of jereziah, but I went for it anyway.

I think it all went downhill once fayde got farmed, but still I feel we should be able to take him out since he's only a soft carry.

Insight, please.

Harkon's is actually a good choice against a jeraziah because it lets you cut through his ulti which normally causes as many problems for your team as his divine protection...

I dont think the game going on too long was really your problem though because your late game is vastly superior with engineer. I really think the reason you lost is your engineer sucked at farming up... like... extremely bad. He wasn't able to finish thunderclaw in 60 minutes. Helm is a bad item choice on him also. If he would have gone straight into DPS I dont see you losing this game. The above poster argues you could have ended the game sooner and he's correct, but I don't think you should have lost a long game either given the potential of both puppet and engineer. Your team severely outpicked the opponents... you had good lategame as well as strong early game push AND a ton of disables.

Re: fayde I think you would be really surprised how well she can carry. Keep in mind this game is moving away from the old school turtle up for 45 minutes while your hard carry becomes unstoppable. The more aggressive nature of recent HoN doesn't allow for it so you can comfortably pick Fayde against the hardest of carries and produce a win even if the game lasts up to an hour. This is because kill counts are higher and relative advantage is more meaningful as a result. A 60 minute game where each team has 40 deaths is alot different than one where each team has 15 deaths.

On top of all this, she has an ability that absorbs a shitload of damage upfront... high armor, and a versatile stealth. She can also sometimes cause you to blow your disables on her fake.

I've played 2 fayde games post-release on this acct 14-0, and 9-1... she can definitely carry if she's active...

TreeHorse
05-14-2010, 05:42 PM
Engi and Puppet are both beastly late-gamers in a team with disables like Panda/Polly.

You should have had an EASY win especially given that Engi hard-counters jera. Puppet with good farm will dominate almost any team due to his high damage, powerful ulti, and ultra-strong countercarry disable (puppet show).

PS Bottle on Puppet is terrible. And your farm was god-awful. 165 CK in 1 hour is simply abhorrent. You should have 165 CS at 30 minutes if your team was doing as well as you say.

As puppet Mid, last-hitting is more important than denying. You need the gold more than TB does and if he denies you, he will take an easy level advantage -> you get rolled by lightning bolts.

Lane aggressively and call ganks. You out-range him and with a courier can bring sufficient pots to stay around.

Of course, your Engi and Polly were terrible. Both should have had a blink and Polly should have at least had an SOTM + puzzlebox at that point.

Fang
05-14-2010, 05:56 PM
I suggested the use of more Homecoming Stones not to prevent backdooring, which should be absolutely no problem with the lineup you had, but to allow for non-stop farming. If you weren't at a teamfight or pushing, you should have been farming.

I find bottles are more for ganking-oriented heroes personally, and as :pupp:, I wouldn't even leave the lane for a rune unless I felt like intercepting the opponent from reaching it themselves, which would certainly be possible with your hold.

Anyways, I'd also suggest hitting your own creeps the moment they reach half life whenever you can. It'll lessen the chance of having to make a decision between denying and getting a creep kill, as well as hopefully keeping you on the higher ground with fog advantage, making harassing even easier for ya as he'll have trouble having sight + occasional miss. Unless you over-do it and actually get the enemy creeps in tower range though, which would be unfortunate.