[Hero] Vindicator [Archive] - Heroes of Newerth Forums

View Full Version : [Hero] Vindicator

Swaggler

05-12-2010, 01:19 PM

Introduction:

Vindicator is seeing more and more competitive play, and I've revamped this guide several times to fit the current meta game. This guide will show you his roles, item builds, skill builds, and some general strategy for new players to Vindicator or for those who want to get better at playing him.
Version 7.2

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/icon_128.jpg

*Guide updated for v2.0.16 of HoN.

Changelog:

2/28/11, v7.2: Major update to hero counters. Also added introduction, tweaked some of the section titles, and shuffled some of the sections around.
2/24/11, v7.1: Updated for patch 2.0.14, and added pics for Glyph of Silence aura radius and visual for Final Chapter. Added Phase Boots and Shrunken Head as possible items.
2/1/11, v7.0: Relatively large revision for patch 2.0.9 / 2.0.10, mostly in item builds.
1/27/11, v6.1: Some slight formatting changes after reading The Guide Guide (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=203733) (a great read, highly recommended). And added Panda to "Don't Spam!" heroes that Vindi counters.
1/22/11, v6.0: Revamped entire guide for newest version of HoN. Changed the item builds entirely, the strategy section, got rid of old irrelevant replays and added new one, etc., etc.
6/8/10, v5.1: Added a few more match replays demonstrating the different types of games and builds (good farm/record vs. bad farm/record)
6/3/10, v5.0: Major revamp, added "Survivability" section under "Strategy," changed the "PICK ME!!" and "PICK HIM!!" sections to include more detail, added Null Stone and Frostwolf Skull to items not mentioned
5/28/10, v4.3: As per Variance's request (thanks!), put in a section on Alchemist Bones under "Items Not Mentioned" in Strategy
5/27/10, v4.2: Changed "Strategy Misc" to just "Strategy" and added a "Laning" section under it
5/27/10, v4.1: Put in more specific data on Vindicator's role throughout the game
5/27/10, v4.0: Added some orb-walking links, and "scaling" to each ability for how the ability scales during the game
5/19/10, v3.1: Added strengths and weaknesses to "Sup, I'm Vindicator"
5/19/10, v3.0: Added "Replays" section and "Items Not Mentioned" section under "Strategy Miscellaneous"
5/18/10, v2.3: Reluctantly added in his stats and ability descriptions
5/18/10, v2.2: Added a section (Ability Usage-- Final Chapter) on when to use ultimate (thanks Pikling)
5/18/10, v2.1: Added a section (under Strategy Misc) on countering Vindicator
5/16/10, v2.0: Added section (under Strategy Misc) on positioning including a short video
5/12/10, v1.0: Guide created
-What you can expect from this guide-

When to pick and when not to pick Vindy
Who on/what/when/where/why to use Vindy's abilities
Different skill builds and when they're relevant
Item builds and when they're relevant
Strategy for playing Vindy
Note:

I can be very long winded in my explanations of things, so I attempted to make the most important things noticeable.

You can pretty much get the gist of the guide by reading the things in color, but I'll go much more in depth in the text in default.
CONTENTS

I. Sup, I'm Vindicator Brief introduction to what/who exactly this hero is and what he's for.
II. Skill Builds Different skill sets and when to use them
III. Hero Counters Breakdown When to pick Vindicator, and what skills counter which heroes.
IV. Don't Pick Me! When not to pick Vindy-- heroes that counter Vindicator and how.
V. Ability usage Basic and advanced information on how/when/why to use each ability
VI. Item Builds Different item builds and when to use them
VII. Stratrgy Additional strategy
NOTE: This guide is navigable, I.E. ctrl+F and type in your heading to find the section that important to you that you'd rather skip to it.

I. Sup, I'm Vindicator

Starting Stats
Attack Type - Ranged
Attack Range - 600
Base Damage - 45-55
Movement Speed - 290
Armor - 1.5
Strength - 17
Agility - 16
Intelligence - 21 (Primary)
Strength / level - 1.7
Agility / level - 2.1
Intelligence / level - 2.5
Strengths :D

Strong silencing power to control enemy spellcasting
Global ultimate (affects all enemies on map) and goes through magic immunity
Moderate lane presence with Sage's Lore mana drain/dmg
High stat gain/level
Great abilities to really throw off other team in team fights
Steals intelligence, and since your damage scales with intelligence it's extra beneficial
Scales better and has more utility late game vs other support heroes
Strong against tanks/carries with his orb that deals TRUE damage (ignoring armors)
Can be a decent solo in the right match up
Weaknesses :mad:

SQUISHY, goes down like a house of cards
Has to be in the thick of things in team fights to be effective, but in turn gets focused
No escape mechanism
No innate disabling abilities (i.e. stun, slow/snare, transfigure, etc.) that other supports have
Long cooldown on ultimate
Item dependent to survive
Slow (like, turtle-slow, and I don't mean Ninja Turtle)
Pretty weak starting stats (though not the worst out there)
Hero Roles:

It's important to realize what exactly Vindicator's roles are. Note that these roles are more or less done simultaneously-- they are not separate and one doesn't "go for" one of them over the other, instead he/she does both simultaneously.

SUPPORT. First off, he's an intelligence hero, and designed to support. And he does/can do that very well! He drains the opponent's mana, forces them to cast spells when they don't want to, stops them from casting spells when they do want to, and steals intelligence from them in an attempt to stop them from casting spells altogether.
TEAM B*TCH. Yeah, it sucks, but you should be buying team support items for your team, I.E. a chicken and/or wards early game, and then wards throughout the game, and upgrading the courier to flying. The sad thing about Vindicator is that he is fairly item dependent to be effective, but he's still a support hero and has to buy wards and possibly babysit early game (thus focusing on harass and pulling, giving the creep kills to the carry you're laning with). Remember-- it's a team game, and you want your team to win, and your way of doing so is sometimes through being the team's b*tch.
TANK :S. As stupid as it sounds, if the other team is smart, you're going to end up tanking a lot of team fights. What I mean by that is you are GOING to get focused... And you staying alive is imperitive to support your team. So, yes, in most team fights your only focus is going to be living.
But that's basically it-- you have three roles... I'm refraining from saying the word "options" here because they're one in the same, you don't really aim for any one or two of them, you support, buy wards and other support items for your team, and get focused to all hell throughout the game.
Carrying with Vindy:

Getting this out of the way now-- Sorry kids, Vindicator isn't a hard carry. Can he carry? Has he carried? Yes. However, at BEST he is a semi-carry, and I strongly recommend you do not pick Vindicator with the intent of hard carrying. Madman/Chronos/Dark Lady/Sand Wraith will laugh his dick off while he WTFPWNs your stupid face late game-- you simply can't 1v1 these heroes without a huge amount of CC and support from your team.

To put it simply, you are more valuable as a support hero to your team than you are carrying, so let other heroes on your team do that. You will almost never want to sacrifice benefiting your support role to boost your carrying ability. I.E., buying stupid damage items like Harkon's Blade over support/survivability items like Astrolabe, not buying wards, etc. Ideally you can buy something that accomplishes both, like Kuldra's, but we'll get more into that later.
Moral of the story: don't try to hard carry! Semi-carry where needed, but you're almost always going to want to focus mostly on staying alive (tanking) and supporting.

II. Skill Builds
Building Vindy's skills.

Sage's Lore Control
1. Sage's Lore
2. Glyph of Silence
3. Sage's Lore
4. Glyph of Silence / Master's Incantation
5. Sage's Lore / Glyph of Silence
6. Final Chapter
7. Sage's Lore / Glyph of Silence
8. Glyph of Silence / Sage's Lore / Master's Incantation
9. Glyph of Silence / Master's Incantation
10. Master's Incantation
11. Final Chapter
12. Glyph of Silence / Master's Incantation
13. Master's Incantation / Glyph of Silence
14. Glyph of Silence / Master's Incantation
15. Stats (+)
16. Final Chapter
17+ Stats

The goal of this build is to abuse the early game harass of Sage's Lore.

When to use this build:
Babysitting. You'll want to use this build if you're babysitting a carry. One point of GoS is taken early to help protect the hero you're babysitting from ganks (and also to capture int from kills during ganks or with your lane partner). One point of MI can be taken at level 2 for some additional orb harass to, avoiding creep aggro, allowing you to control the lane and let your carry farm the creeps. However, it may be necessary to get another point into GoS to protect your carry more if your lane is getting ganked a lot. Note: If you're facing someone that can get out of Sage's Lore easily (like Slither and his Wards or Bubbles and his Shell) or double melee-- then you should move to the next build.
Solo'ing (Countering strong mid hero). This build is really effective to counter strong melee mid heroes such as Pebbles, Gauntlet, Blacksmith, etc. You HAVE to stay vigilant-- i.e. keep their mana pools low, harass the shiz out of them, and keep rune control. Wards are a must. I'll go more into how to control mid against one of these heroes with this build later.
Pushing / Counter-carry. The idea behind this is putting Vindy up against a late game hero that requires a lot of farm during the laning phase (such as Sand Wraith). Ideally, you can lane with someone else that can either harass well or has a nice snare (Plague Rider or Puppet Master are perfect examples). Simply harass the nuts off of the enemy heroes and attempt to either (1) get an early tower down or (2) completely stop the opposing carry's farm, even snagging some kills on them. Both of these objectives can be accomplished simultaneously as well. More later.
Another note on this build:
A lot of times, Sage's Lore is effective with just 1-2 points early and then loses steam around level 7-9, depending on your lane and if the enemy heroes get good regen quickly. At the same time, some games Glyph of Silence can be useful earlier than others, as in if the opposing team goes all mid at 11 minutes. As such, you can adjust your build accordingly. Feel free to take earlier points of Master's Incantation at levels 5 and 7 instead of Sage's Lore if it's not working well and the orb harass would be more effective.
The "Yikes" Build

Ut-oh. You're going up against a tough lane and/or getting ganked and pwnt.

If this is happening to you, you'll probably want to start alternating GoS and stats for survivability. This is only in extreme situations, and probably means you just shouldn't have picked Vindy or you picked him to early and got countered.
The Classic

1. Master's Incantation (MI)
2. Stats
3. Master's Incantation
4. Stats / Sages Lore (SL)
5. Master's Incantation
6. Glyph of Silence (GoS) / Stats
7. Master's Incantation
8. FC
9. Stats
10. Glyph of Silence
11. FC
12. Glyph of Silence
13. Glyph of Silence / Stats
14. Stats / Glyph of Silence
15. Stats
16. FC
17-22. Stats
23. Stats / SL
24-25. SL

Insight:
I do NOT recommend this build for a typical game, however, it can work in certain matchups. It's purely situational, and I would say should be used sparingly. It can work well if you are solo'ing mid against a hero that isn't affected as much by Sage's Lore (like Bubbles, Slither, etc.).
The only time you will typically use this build is solo'ing, as going against a dual or tri lane makes Sage's Lore more effective by hitting more heroes. However, if you have a strong disabler(s) laning with you and your pew-pew orb (MI) is more effective than Sage's Lore, then go for it (notice the situationalness).

The idea behind this build is that your orb (MI) is powerful when combined with good stats (adding more intelligence), and thus you harass by orb-walking enemy heroes rather than with SL, which is why it's great against opposing melee heroes-- just orb-walk them when they get close to the creep clash.

A pretty good amount of options here; again, remember every build can be altered based on what's happening in the game. Sage's Lore can be taken at 4, because depending on the lane match up, you can cast it on and kill a hero with low hp that would otherwise get away to the well (and you're welcome to mix in another point or two in the place of stats early if you're bouncing to other lanes where it's effective). This is optional though, as is taking GoS at 6-- stealing int is good, and this is about the time that ganks start to happen.
Either way, team fights will start around level 10-11 at the latest, and thus you start to finish up GoS around there, but you should take it earlier in the place of stats if you or your team needs it.

Final Chapter is slightly delayed in favor of GoS or stats instead, assuming it won't be incredibly crucial for you to have it at 6. This is debatable, though, go ahead and grab it if you think you'll use it to gank/prevent ganks.

III. Hero Counters Breakdown

Vindicator can be one of the better counter-picks in the game. As intuitive as that statement is, it's important to always keep that in mind. You should really only pick Vindicator based on what the opponent picks, and typically as a later pick if you're in a draft/BP situation. Now, obviously we'd counterpick nearly any hero that casts spells. However, I really don't think people realize just how many heroes Vindicator counters. Let's think about how we can really mess up some heroes with Vindicator's abilities...
Heroes to counter by picking Vindy by skill:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNnEhQUSKczhNdITQF0bj-u9kyavkjAWutiu4wo9040sIccdEx8g
1. Sage's Lore

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:uggt-E_OSHiRRM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/swiftblade.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5sFSwllWyWAlNM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DChronos.png http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:l0xxQNJuX2FqAM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/torturer.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ijLmGa-HkulQRM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DThunderbrin ger.pnghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:kcao2Eg51HikXM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DDevourer.pn ghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:uG71j8raEM-W9M:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Soul-Reaper.png
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:rCaYiqSsAMeRxM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DPebbles.png http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:r8KF5hbwotWfAM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DPyromancer. pnghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKpXQuCcMXrSZdMplnv-2GZ9ysJU_Pgw85pLyeApXYdER108bw http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzM8M2DAnARNflgexSUY2cWT4mqoNLE dYekKQnv3yStqLyEu6Mhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX8BNRoPkBikPQuSrvfzIEEZiy9y15a 8Lal_YyiF2Tt1R4dcJhiwhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:fH5_XT_VmYKkdM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DAccursed.pn g
These heroes are countered by Sage's Lore, by draining their mana and/or forcing them to use spells when they don't want to. Pick Vindicator and lane against these heroes with the Sage's Lore Control build, and get a Mana Battery / Power Supply where applicable. Heroes like Swiftblade and Devourer can't get kills if they have no mana, giving you the lane advantage.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeRedVCv6iDH2G_H5UVkBRrtAwwd8VB uoeQUHrvNPaM3RVzPZq
2. Master's Incantation

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RNKkEM9Hus6USM:http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID13320/images/Hon_The_Chipper.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:OVTEwqeQkmfJYM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DValkyrie.pn ghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:prFd9_Ss1eLbCM:http://images.mmosite.com/answer/dict/upload/2009/11/20/6d5b7788170893d4c21257c1cc07c6b7.pnghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:czBdba4izOhNlM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DHammerstorm .png
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:e983CobzvnJ1VM:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_G1hp1y5yAk0/Sp4RbOidssI/AAAAAAAAAXw/Vkrhsu9lXpk/s320/icon.jpghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJ9zKduYT24Esu2BHdvnlNYfNfVCQjy oa-N-JVAnfQpvFbUjDTvwhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Kg2kLEup_fY5fM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DElectrician .pnghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z31eit_EEQFeMM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/wretched-hag.gif

Sage's Lore isn't as effective on these heroes, so you can counter them by going The Classic build and orb-walk harassing them. Especially if you're solo, you can also use MI to out last-hit them).

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCLNgC-f8sMm2d687XTou-GgAbXq7e7oGsZClipe0tLKCkMyCYDg
3. Glyph of Silence

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z31eit_EEQFeMM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/wretched-hag.gifhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:rCaYiqSsAMeRxM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DPebbles.png http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:r8KF5hbwotWfAM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DPyromancer. pnghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ijLmGa-HkulQRM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DThunderbrin ger.pnghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:l0xxQNJuX2FqAM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/torturer.gifhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJ9zKduYT24Esu2BHdvnlNYfNfVCQjy oa-N-JVAnfQpvFbUjDTvw
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RNKkEM9Hus6USM:http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID13320/images/Hon_The_Chipper.jpghttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:prFd9_Ss1eLbCM:http://images.mmosite.com/answer/dict/upload/2009/11/20/6d5b7788170893d4c21257c1cc07c6b7.pnghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:_7D6hEs1HwtQCM:http://honcheats.com/Heroes/Moon_Queen/Soulstealerhero.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX8BNRoPkBikPQuSrvfzIEEZiy9y15a 8Lal_YyiF2Tt1R4dcJhiwhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4IvRvplN2Ypw8M:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/behemoth.gifhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Um6h-jsQnUVUwM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/magmus.gif
Counter-pick these heroes with Glyph of Silence. Stop them from chain casting their combos, and also from initiating (blinking triggers GoS if they're in range). Heroes like Behemoth and Panda are completely shut down by GoS. If you're laning against these heroes, you'll want to go the Sage's Lore Control build or mix in some points instead of stats with The Classic. You definitely want to have a good amount of points in this by mid-game for team fights if you're facing any of these heroes.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRyVaYW_ueXRRytMYVAy9bdCUOqFOCs9 HzBD1sDev7VzGKGwtRUNA
4. Final Chapter

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:Um6h-jsQnUVUwM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/magmus.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:_7D6hEs1HwtQCM:http://honcheats.com/Heroes/Moon_Queen/Soulstealerhero.gifhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJ9zKduYT24Esu2BHdvnlNYfNfVCQjy oa-N-JVAnfQpvFbUjDTvwhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:kcao2Eg51HikXM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DDevourer.pn ghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX8BNRoPkBikPQuSrvfzIEEZiy9y15a 8Lal_YyiF2Tt1R4dcJhiwhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MCC7xNPTlAnNPM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/tempest.gif
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:z31eit_EEQFeMM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/wretched-hag.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RfiO8MG1OgYxuM:http://images.mmosite.com/answer/dict/upload/2009/11/19/a295773d1cee95e60d8be0350be4bbc5.jpghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:5sFSwllWyWAlNM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DChronos.png http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRzM8M2DAnARNflgexSUY2cWT4mqoNLE dYekKQnv3yStqLyEu6Mhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:BUc1k8lzbZ6VOM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/voodoo-jester.gifhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3qZHVwESR0DeoM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DJereziah.pn g
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4IvRvplN2Ypw8M:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/behemoth.gifhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:WekiiYFmnkBlRM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/keeper-of-the-forest.gifhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:JeHf6kAlQhn5NM:http://newerth101.com/wp-content/heroes/kraken.gifhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:JmarZDZhctTItM:http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_G1hp1y5yAk0/SoVAYaOWF5I/AAAAAAAAAQk/_ppKUN0BOGI/s200/Nymphora.png
You can counterpick these heroes with Final Chapter by stopping their channeling spells, preventing them from using their escape mechanism, and/or shutting down the opposition's devastating team fight spells when your team initiates.

NOTE: There are many applications to your support for your team against nearly all heroes. Watch for the above heroes to be picked, and depending on your team makeup, Vindicator can be a really strong pick. However, read the next section to avoid heroes that rape Vindicator for when you should avoid picking him.
IV. Don't Pick Me!

Even though Vindy is a great hero in many situations, there are plenty of occasions where you want to pick someone else. Vindicator is typically NOT a first pick in a draft/BP situation. Just don't do it unless you a really sure it will define the game-- your opponents will pick around/counter you and odds are there's another hero that's a better pick and your allies will hate you.

Don't pick Vindy if the opposing team has a lot of heroes that aren't hurt by your abilities as much (ugh I said I wasn't putting generic strategy in this thing...).
Heroes that are scary for Vindy:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYYFGWe98yITlEsYcd8ti1KuVV9vgdf NYCyHclHkqs0bsFpF5lhttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:wIJ693yH7R0q7M:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DNight-Hound.pnghttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:2yVcWgWcsdUyNM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DSlither.png http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:hsdT8R5MmBRSbM:http://honcheats.com/Heroes/Wildsoul/Wildsoul.png
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YFlEKB9vnyKlPM:http://wikiwiki.jp/hon/%3Fplugin%3Dref%26page%3Dimage%26src%3DThe-Dark-Lady.png http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRnpVKkaAYQUPsfKDNGx7zqXuH7YRr0F FmkM4BNlHrJOABfCnuopA http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtgNELyQO0ajtdam-Cg1_upW-Y6IokYPXP3mpB7nz9hLqQJf_87w http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPaCsSCyi1ukbd8gMQ62JBUGEXF7MN7 0kKK7OBgv8aPi3fTwcXAA
Heroes that either don't rely on spellcasting, have cheap spells to get out of Sage's Lore, have good snares early game, and/or deal high amounts of damage by some means other than spellcasting (such as auto-attacking :S).

You are just less useful (not useless) against the above heroes, so use a bit of caution when picking a team. A great counter a lot of these carry heroes if you're getting really stomped is Void Talisman... but I'll go a lot more into all around itemization later in the guide.

V. Ability Usage
I'll go a bit more in depth on how to use each of Vindy's actives.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/ability1_128.jpg
1. Sage's Lore
Funny how some of the most avoidable spells in the game can be the most potent (Bloodseeker's Rupture, Myrmidon's Magic Carp, etc.). What I mean is this ability can be useful in more ways than most people think.
Spell info:
The Vindicator unleashes forgotten lore from within The Book, causing any enemy heroes to lose health and mana until they cast a spell.

Applies Sage's Lore to all enemies within a 350 Area of Effect, dealing 20/30/40/50 damage per second and draining 10/15/20/25 mana per second for 5/6/7/8 seconds.

Mana Cost: 75/95/115/135

Cooldown: 14 secondsWhat's great about this ability:

Spammable for harass
Stops them from spamming
The more you use it, the more effective it is
Forces them to cast spells when they may not want to
Can net kills on heroes that would otherwise get away (great range)
Cancels potions instantly
In order to cancel the effect, the player has to cast a spell, and attack-modifiers do not count.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/maxedout987/untitled.jpg
With this spell, you can shut down your opposing laner's spellcasting. The best way to use it is obviously try to wait for them to cast a spell, I.E. Sand Wraith casts his Desert's Curse, and then throw it on them. Then their spell is on CD and they can't cancel the effect.

Another way is to randomly throw it out there, forcing them to use spells when they otherwise wouldn't. Best situations are when the opponent is running away, or you can get out of line-of-sight of their targetables, I.E. cast on Thunderbringer when he's falling back a bit, then run behind the trees. Then they are forced with the decision-- eat the damage or waste the spell (such as TB shooting creeps with his chain lightning) and probably more mana. Either way, they're losing mana, and possibly losing a good chunk of health.

Once they're down to no mana, you can either keep it going if you have some mana regen or save it for the right times to conserve your own mana. For example, Engineer's stun costs 80 mana at level 1. Keep an eye on his mana and cast it when he gets to about 70 or so. This takes a ton of pressure of you (and your lane mate) by not having to worry about getting stunned randomly.

This spell is great for team fights. If you see the enemy team grouped up mid getting ready to push, try to get on the cliff and hit as many of them as possible with it (without putting yourself in danger). This causes them to waste their abilities and not have the mana necessary to execute the team fight.

It's great for nabbing otherwise unobtainable kills. Say chronos is getting pwnt and then time leaps a short distance away and starts a health potion on himself just before going out of line of sight. Remember that Sage's Lore is 1050 total range-- longer than your attack range. You can throw it on the bushes, stopping that potion as soon as a tick goes, and probably killing him since he already used Time Leap.

Scaling: This spell is obviously going to become less effective as the game goes on, but it's something you're going to want to use it whenever possible all game long. Even if it's weak damage wise late game, it still drains opponent's mana which seriously can make a difference late game, or it can still spook opponents into using their spells when it's innopportune to get rid of the debuff.

Swaggler

05-12-2010, 01:20 PM

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/ability2_128.jpg
2. Master's Incantation
Your attack-modifier, or "orb." Pretty self explanatory, but here goes.
Spell info:
Using the Master's Incantation inscribed within The Book, Vindicator enhances his attacks.
Deals an extra 15%/30%/45%/60% of Vindicator?s Intelligence as pure damage on his attacks.
Mana Cost: 15

Cooldown: 3/2/1/0 secondsWhat's great about this spell:

TRUE damage (ignores any and all types of damage mitigation)
Deals BONUS damage based off of your primary attribute, so stacking int gives you double the damage
Can orb-walk, avoiding creep aggro to harass
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/maxedout987/hon_2010-04-11_17-19-15-81-1.png

:vind:ORB WALKING EXPLAINATIONS:
If you need an explaination of what orb walking is, HERE (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=27712) is a useful thread on what it's for and such.
Click HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbgDcwi08Y0) for a video (yes it's from DotA, but it's really no different in HoN) on how to orb walk effectively.

Wait until you get at least one core item before your turn this bad boy on autocast-- if you do at all (I typically don't until it's pretty late).

Scaling: This ability scales suprisingly well all game, as it's TRUE damage and it does more damage the higher your intelligence gets. However, it is most effective in early-mid game and late late game. In the start of the mid game (early-mid), opponents won't have the items they need that give them the HP to tank your blows, and by late game you should have a fair amount of intelligence from items and from Glyph of Silence to really boost its damage.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/ability3_128.jpg
3. Glyph of Silence
This skill got a really big upgrade in that just like Sac Stone it gets charges if heroes just die around you, instead of before where you had to be the one to kill the hero.
Spell info:
Inscribed into the binding of The Book, the Glyph of Silence quiets the minds of those around it who cast a spell while stealing their power if they fall in battle.

Any enemy hero within a 950 Area of Effect will be silenced for 0.75/1.5/2.25/3 seconds after casting a spell. Any enemy hero who dies within a 950 Area of Effect will lose one point of Intelligence to Vindicator permanently.What's great about this ability:

Stops chaincasting
Helps break up ganks against your lane
Great for team fights
Gives you more int!
Give them less int!
Helps you scale
Huge Radius
Only takes 1 point to steal intelligence

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/maxedout987/image.jpg

This is a great passive. To be most effective for your team, you're going to want to get points in this early. You DEFINITELY want to have a good amount of points in this by mid game (when the team fights start happening).

It's absolutely awesome in team fights to really mess up any of the opposing heroes that would cast more than one spell, Pollywog Priest is a perfect example. It can also be used in combination with your ult (as best you can) to really make a long silence. If you see a hero like Pollywog cast his Morph on a hero and then become silenced, time it out and then just before it wears off throw out your ultimate.

The intelligence steal can make a big difference. Think about how many kills+assists you get in an average game. I'd say 12-20 is pretty average. That can be a lot of int gain for you, and your primary attribute is INT and your orb is boosted by your intelligence... it really starts to add up.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/heroes/115/ability4_128.jpg
4. Final Chapter
Lastly your ult, and really what puts you over the top as a support hero.
Spell info:
Releasing the power held within the final chapter of The Book, Vindicator prevents any spellcasting across the battlefield.

Silences all enemy heroes on the map for 3/4/5 seconds.

Mana Cost: 250/350/450

Cooldown: 160 secondsWhat's great about this spell:

Global (silences all heroes)
Awesome for ganks
Awesome in team fights
Stops channeling spells
Stops :nigh: Night Hound from going back invisible (wooh!)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p65/maxedout987/image-1.jpg
It should also be noted that it is cancelled by Nullstone's effect.

:vind:When to use your ultimate:

1. Early game

Early on, it's ok to use it for just one hero-- team fights haven't started yet and thus you don't have to worry about saving it. If you could net a kill on a particular hero by popping your ult, DO IT!

Ganking:
If you're going to gank a hero with a stun (:pebb:, :hamm:, :blac:, etc.), it's probably best to cast it as you go in and don't give them an opportunity to stun you and cheese it before you come out.

If you're going to gank a hero with a heal, like Jereziah, save it for when you think he's about to use it, but low enough to kill before he comes out. If you pop it right when you go in, he'll still be alive when it wears off and heal himself up. Wait until he gets to that ~30% mark and then pop it. This all may seem obvious, but it's sad how misused this ult can be by some pretty good players.
2. Mid/late game

Towards mid-late game, try to save your ult for team fights as best you can. Obviously you can't always do that, but generally at this point in the game you don't want to use it on just one hero and on multiple only when it's a sure thing. It's got a 160 second cooldown, which is pretty darn long, so use it sparingly.

Stop those initiators from doing their thing-- especially if they don't have a blink dagger. It's so easy to see a Tempest without blink running towards your team getting ready to pop his ult, so beat him to it! Right when he's about to get in position, silence him and his team.They will probably not be able to react quick enough, and your team can run in and stomp them. Or if you're not caught in his ult but some/all of your team is, gee, what to do... PRESS "R" FOOL!
3. Team coordination

Coordinate your team. When the enemy is team pushing down mid, have your team wait in the forest, and then have your initiators start to go in and pop your silence at the right time, followed with a quick Sage's Lore for good measure.

Give your team a small heads up in chat (hopefully voice chat) like "hey tempest looks like he's coming in to ult, I'm gonna silence." They should stomp away then. You can initiate a team fight by countering their initiation, if your team is heads-up enough.
4. Don't ult like a moron

One other thing-- remember that your ultimate is NOT an escape mechanism. Man up! Don't freak out and get twitchy fingers when you get ganked. If you're going to die, you're going to die (welcome to being a support hero). Only use that ult if you really think it's going to save your freakin' life. FOR INSTANCE, Hammerstorm's stun is going to come up again in about one second, and you're at 20% health and about 300 distance away from the trees above/below your tower. This can be appropriate, but just shooting it every time you're going to die is a bad idea, because you're going to spawn before that cooldown is up and your team may need it.
VI. Item Builds
Itemization on Vindicator can be pretty straight forward. The number one thing is to find the right balance of items that will provide enough survivability while giving your team some added support.

Starting inventory:

When the game first starts, odds are you're either going to be buying wards or a courier for your team (or both if necessary).

Blood Chalice is no longer a great item for Vindicator any more (waaah), so it's back to the typical build.

Laning Inventory:
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_GroundFamiliar.jpg-OR-http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_FlamingEye.jpgx2 (or :FlyingCourier:)http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_RunesOfTheBlight.jpg
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_HealthPotion.jpg http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MinorTotem.jpg x 2 http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_ManaPotion.jpg x 2
596 gold

This is the pretty standard laning build. It can also work if you are called upon to solo mid,

:vind:NOTE: If, by some chance, your team got a courier and wards already, then you can either upgrade the courier to flying or buy some counter wards (Wards of Revelation) and give them to the lane that needs them to prevent their creep pull from being blocked. One will probably do it, and then you could grab another basic ward of sight or another set of Runes of Blight for added regen. If all of these avenues are taken care of, you can always grab another set of Minor Totems.

Solo Inventory:

If you are called upon to solo and you still have to buy courier or wards, then refer to the above build as it will work just fine.

However, if you do not have to buy a 200g item to start with, then you can change up your inventory a bit. This build assumes you are going "The Classic" skill build above, thus mostly skipping Sage's Lore and eliminating the need for mana potions.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_RunesOfTheBlight.jpg http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_HealthPotion.jpghttp://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MarkOfTheNovice.jpg x 2 http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MinorTotem.jpg x 2
596 gold

The idea here is that you're going to be using the Classic Build and thus Master's Incantation for your harass and occassional last hitting. Having a couple of quick Mark of the Novice will boost your damage a good amount for harassing and last hit power. Then you can grab two Minor Totems to turn into either a Power Supply or an Astrolabe. If you're REALLY worried about being harassed, you can grab another set of Runes of Blight or another Health Potion instead of the two Totems.
I would say that I very rarely use this starting build-- you're almost always going to want to go for the first build. As I said, this should ONLY be used if you're going The Classic skill build and not buying wards or a courier because your team already has them.
Early-Mid game inventory:

When approaching the middle of the game, your main focus is just getting your survivability up.

http://heroes-newerth.com/wp-content/myimages/Steamboots.png (or :EnhancedMarchers:)
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_PowerSupply.jpg http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_MysticVestments.jpg (optional)

You've got many options for early-mid game. You can opt to finish your Power Supply if you think you'll benefit from it, or you can save the Totems for an Astrolabe. Power Supply is a great, cheap item to fit in there with buying wards and such.

And then Steamboots: typically, you'll have your Steamboots switched to strength to give yourself some added HP. If survivability hasn't been an issue up to this point, feel free to try them on INT for a while and see how that goes.

:vind: Note on :EnhancedMarchers: Phase Boots:
Phase Boots is a viable option for Vindicator, though I prefer the stats of Steamboots. It's a great item if escape is essential and your HP value isn't a huge issue, as it will increase your burst MS quite a bit. It's also great if your team is really aggressive and chase is an issue.
If (and only if) you solo'd and/or went "The Classic" build you have the option of finish the Talisman of Exiles, but you may chose not to in order to finish your Astrolabe, Sheepstick, or other item ASAP. You don't need the extra mana to cast anything, so this would purely be for +dmg if you're trying to fit into that semi-carry role.

If you're having some survivability issues against a team primarily doing magic damage, a cheap and effective survivability pick up can be made in Mystic Vestments. You can also turn this into a Barrier Idol to help your team later in the game, if necessary.
Mid game inventory:

Now that we're getting into the heart of the mid game, team pushes/battles are starting or will be starting soon. You're pretty great utility by yourself in team fights, but you need to start thinking about the future and how you're going to add to your team's control outside the realm of your innate hero skills. In this section, I will take you through three different scenarios of what typical games will go like playing Vindicator, and what items you can opt for based on the situation.

:vind:Special Note: HoN/DotA will always be a game of ADAPTABILITY. The best players know that if the game is not going well, you have to change something. There's not a single hero where one build is universal in every situation no matter your farm. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing expecting different results.
Scenario 1: Normal Farm

If your farm is not oustanding because you had to babysit, got ganked/denied a lot, or other such things, but you're not getting completely screwed by a ton of deaths either. I would say 70% or more of the games you play you'll fall into this category.

Astrolabe is considered the most core item for Vindicator.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Astrolabe.jpg
The small amount of stats, added armor, and burst heal of HP will increase your survivability a lot and aid your team significantly. The fact is that you have a TON of mana in the mid-late game that you just aren't using, and so this item is a great pickup to help your team (as well as yourself), and can turn the tide of teamfights in the blink of a crooked eye.

You may want to make your core item Storm Spirit.
http://heroes-newerth.com/wp-content/myimages/Storm-Spirit.png
The reasoning behind this is that if your farm is not going well, it will take you way too long to farm up the pieces for Kuldras which are quite expensive. This item will not only give you some more support for team fights by disabling a huge threat for 2.5 seconds, but it also gives you a suedo-escape mechanism, along with boosting your speed to help you escape as well. In addition, you can also use this item on yourself when being focused in a fight for 2.5 sec of invulnerability, which can really make a big difference late game especially [thanks to Pikling].

Tablet of Command is another option as well.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_PushStaff.jpg

An underrated item, Tablet can be extremely helpful, especially in the right situations. The most obvious use being an escape mechanism, it has so many other uses:

Push you/teammates out of danger and saving them
Push a threatful enemy out of the fight (say down a hill)
Stop channeling spells (I.E. Electrician's hold spell, Tempest's ult, etc.)
Push an enemy from the other team into your team to quickly dispatch him
And there's many, many more applications. Also note that the above two alternatives give you no added health or armor. The survivability they add is on a situational basis. If you're really getting smoked, that's what this next section is for.

Scenario 2: Ouch.

So you're getting focused hard-core style and getting straight PWNT, and you really don't think the +MS and 2.5 second tornado from Storm Spirit will be enough to help you. It's alright!

Astrolabe will add some survivability.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Astrolabe.jpg
As said above, the small amount of stats, added armor, and burst heal of HP will increase your survivability a lot. It really can make a huge difference, which is what makes this item so versatile for both when you're doing well and when you're getting focused.

Helm of the Black Legion of course helps you take some blows.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Shield2.jpg
As much as I hate getting this item on Vindy because of the lack of support-ness it offers, it is a great survivability item. The truth of the matter is, if you're dead, you can't support anyone. Since your silences only work if you're alive, you can't ignore survivability issues. Nice build up to, and some lane staying power with the Health Tube. Despite all of this, still secondary to Astrolabe for survivability items, but get it if you are getting raped by physical damage.

Void Talisman is the best option if you're getting rocked by opposing physical carries' auto attacks.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_VoidTalisman.jpg
First off, 1500 gold isn't that bad +7 to all stats, and adding the 7 strength can give you a small hp boost, which is good. Secondly, it can get those annoying physical carries off of you in team fights and force them to focus someone else (ideally your tank) or when they're chasing you. This is a great option if you're trying to stay unfocused in team fights and still getting rocked.
Simply pop it, and then cast Sage's Lore and possibly your ult while you can't attack, or pop it and use your homecoming stone to teleport outta there if you're getting ganked! It's honestly a great option, though I'm sure many wouldn't agree.

:vind:Note: Unlike in DotA, you can not cast MI while under the effect of Void Talisman. Still, it's a great choice on him.
One thing that does stink is the update to Void Tal that makes you have less magic armor during the duration. Again, pretty situational, this item is purely for surviving against annoying physical carries such as:
:dark::pred::mage::arac::bloo::madm::sand::chro: etc.

Barrier Idol can be a good choice against magic-heavy burst damage teams.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_BarrierIdol.jpg
If the team you're going against is full of magic-heavy bust damage, even with your silences it may be necessary to get a Headdress early on, and upgrading that to a Barrier Idol can be a great way to support your team.

Scenario 3: You're rocking it

You're doing well-- you've aided in some ganks and picked up some assists and/or a kill or two, your CS is good, and you haven't been killed more than a few times if at all.
You've upgraded the courier, and you're constantly buying wards, but you're still managing to pool a fair amount of coin.

In this scenario, you'd want your core item to be Kuldra's Sheepstick.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Morph.jpg
This is the best all around item for Vindy. You get a whopping 35 intelligence, a fair amount of hp and agility, and best of all, Transfigure. This works wonders for you for many reasons.
For starters, it's great support for your team. I'm not going to go into why Kuldara's is awesome for team fights and such (it's been discussed many times in many other places) because it goes without saying.
Secondly, you have no inate chasing ability/disable. This gives you one, and will grant your team many more kills. I promise you that if you get a Sheepstick early enough in the game you can kill weaker heroes before they even become unshept.
It is crucial that you get a disable at some point before end game, because it may be the only thing that can stop the opposing team's carry enough for you/your team to kill him. Without disable, you are extremely vulnerable late game.

Despite all of this, it is a very expensive item, and in a lot of games you're not going to be able to afford it. Most of the time, it's not going to be feasible unless you were solo'ing or you've been getting a lot of assist gold from successful ganks.

Late game inventory:
Note: I hate the term "luxury item." Every item should be bought with a purpose in mind. When I say "luxury item," I'm purely refering to items bought after one of the core that aren't vital to your build AND only if you're still buying wards and everything.

:vind:INSIGHT: At this point, if gold is in excess, GET A SHEEPSTICK. Get it. Do it. There's nothing better for you and your team. Honestly, you may never even get to this point, since you're the ward b*tch for your team. But, if it comes down to it....
Storm Spirit is an obviously good choice.
http://heroes-newerth.com/wp-content/myimages/Storm-Spirit.png
Yes, I know, it's a mid game item. But having the combination of Kuldra's plus SS it's amazing in team fights, and could be just want you need to seal the deal. The bonus to movement speed is nothing to scoff at, either, and can help you chase down or escape opponents even more effectively.

Frostfield Plate is a great option.
http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_FrostfieldPlate.jpg
Gives you an extra little nuke for team fights, and can help your team (or just you) chase. Gives a great bonus to Intellect and the armor and -AS aura can be really beneficial against those late game carries. I especially recommend this item if an opponent goes for Shieldbreaker to counteract the armor loss. If you can get one of your team mates (not you) to grab an Daemonic Breastplate, the two coupled can really make you tanky.

Shrunken Head can help you if you're getting locked down.
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGc70HwyWBs3xZtChY9ZvUTLRP46KBX du3Ijn0PB4UELPKZgCp5g
As said previously, you have to survive to be useful. If you're getting focused and locked down by stuns before you can even cast your ult and other abilities, then Shrunken Head is for you.

Hellflower can be an option depending on the situation.
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOXnao2m7Ii9i6pkGqYZ517Arh2zKfs k9ExwsYulqb0FgPv4zB
Once considered core for the "carry Vindicator", but lacking a few things that Kuldra's Sheepstick and Storm Spirit have that are crucial:

No escape mechanism (the silence really doesn't count)
No hp (like Kuldra's)
No real disable
You already silence the crud out of stuff as is (though more isn't always bad and may be necessary)
IAS does not help as much as Intelligence
The truth is it's somewhat of an oddball item for this hero. It seems like it was made for him at first glance, but in reality, it falls into a strange in between slot-- it's not as good as Kuldra's for offense and it's definitely not as good as SS for defense.
For offense, more intelligence (as in 15 more for Kuldra's) outweighs the 30 increased attack speed in terms of just raw damage since Intelligence gives you a double benefit (main attribute +dmg and your orb).
In defense... well honestly there's really not a defensive aspect to this item at all. One could argue that you could silence a caster and run away, but hey, guess what-- you can already do that.
Despite all of this, it is a viable late game option after one of the two core items. It just, as always, depends on the particular situation (maybe your team is REALLY get smoked by a caster and your silences still aren't enough?), but I'll tell you that I prefer Frostfield Plate to this item.

Swaggler

05-12-2010, 01:21 PM

VII. Strategy
Generic Vindicator strategy I either didn't mention above or didn't go into a lot of detail about.

1. Know your role

Remember the golden rule (that I've mentioned at least twice already): YOU ARE NOT A HARD CARRY. Don't gimp your team by acting like one. You are a support hero, and can sometimes fit the role of a semi-carry. But most of the time, you're there to support.
Don't take kills if you don't have to. Though you are more item dependant than other support heroes (i.e. NEED INT), you still shouldn't take kills on deliberately over your carry. Now, this doesn't mean run around the enemy in circles while your carry attacks and let him get away. Error on the side of taking the kill rather than letting the enemy get away from being too cautious. But if the enemy is clearly going to die, yeild the kill to your carries.
This also means don't out last-hit your lane partner if he's a carry. You may have the power to last hit more creeps early game than a chronos or sand wraith, but again, remember that they need the gold more than you do, and you're laning with them to baby-sit them. Instead, in this situation you should focus on your harass of the opposing laners. You have some of the best early harass abilities of any hero-- use them! Keep them off of your lane partner by throwing a lot of SL's on them and tossing MI's when they get too close. This will make a world of difference for your teammate.
2. Laning

Deciding which lane to go down with Vindicator really just revolves around different applications of his early game harass and supporting your allies in every way you can, and honestly you can lane with most any hero. But here's some preconcieved lane matchups you and your allies can do:

Babysitter (bottom lane for Legion, top lane for Hellbourne, with team's hard carry)
While you're not the best babysitter, you can harass really well against either casters or noncasters enemies, protecting your carry and allowing him to free farm. Do this by throwing out Sage's Lore a lot right when you get in the lane-- typically this can force the enemy heroes to stay backed up in an attempt to avoid being hit by it, and thus will allow your carry to farm. If this isn't effective (like vs a Slither who can cast a ward and remove the debuff), then you can simply orb walk the enemy with Master's Incantation to keep them honest.
Remember to creep pull or have your partner creep pull when necessary to keep the creep clash close to your tower, helping to prevent ganks and keep your precious carry (and you) safe.

Mid Counter (you solo mid vs a melee enemy with a hatchet)
Normally, you're a poor choice for solo mid-- mostly because you're not a great ganker. However, if your opponent picks a strong melee mid solo, such as :pebb:, :devo:, :phar:, or :blac:, you make an excellent counter and you can seriously shut them down.
I wish the replays still existed, but games I've had are thigns such as at 10 minutes against a hatchet Pebbles with a CS of 5/2 where mine is upwards of 40/30.

All it takes is for you to simply not allow the enemy hero to even approach the creep clash without bending them over. Drain their mana/force their spells and/or orb walk the crap out of them, and if they have a hatchet you can throw out your orb on creeps for last hits if needed (but they shouldn't be able to get close to the creep clash at all anyway if you're harassing correctly). They may call for a lane switch, at which point you may want to do the same and let a hero that needs the solo time more have it.
If you don't go mid and they have a mid solo, don't be afraid to ask your mid how it's going and see if he wants to switch for a while-- I promise it will pay off.
This is an extremely effective strategy, though I rarely see it used.

Hardpusher / Counter-carry (can be either top or bottom, with a pusher / disabler)
If your team's line-up allows for you to go with another int hero that can push well, such as Defiler, Pollywog Priest, Tempest, etc., you can help knock down towers and/or draw enemies to help from other lanes early. The way you do this is again through your strong harass. Drive those heroes back to the well with SL and MI and your lane partner's spam and then push, push, push! Or, if you've got a hero with a good snare, shut down that opposing carry's farm and nab some kills on him!

:vind:Note: With this strategy, you're going to be highly susceptible to ganks. Prevent unnecessary deaths by warding the river and nearby woods to ensure you can GTFO when needed. Knocking down a tower early will make up for the 200g you dished out for vision.
Switcher/Roamer (go where you're needed!)
While I wouldn't recommend truly "roaming" like a Blacksmith or Andromeda would, do remember that Vindicator is a very versatile support hero. Like I said before, HoN is a game of adaptation-- adjust to the situation. If one of your team's lanes is struggling, odds are if you switch with one of the heroes, you can help shut that lane down. If initially you head out to top lane, and they put their two casters bottom lane, don't hesitate to suggest switching if you feel you'll be more effective.
3. Positioning

Positioning is obviously key in HoN in many different situations. For Vindy it's no different.

First off, Sage's Lore has a huge cast range (1050 total). You can easily cast it from the bushes and not give away your location. Opponents will often hang back once you hit them with it a few times to avoid getting it again, which is incredibly stupid of them.
Try after checking the rune or creep pulling sometime to just go to the side behind the trees and tossing it on them.
When ganking from the trees, you can open with a SL without revealing your location. Sometimes you can trick opponents to running right to you by being towards the top of the bushes and casting it on them, forcing them to back and running right at you where you effectively MI them to death.

Positioning in team fights can be tricky for Vindy. He, like many other int heroes, obviously wants to try to be towards the back, behind the tanks and initiators that are much more beefy. However, unlike many other int heroes, he has an orb ability that he really needs to use to be effective and requires his attack range (600).

In team fights, since your ultimate is global (doesn't require you to be positioned anywhere and still affects all enemy heroes), you do not have to go in right away. Typically, you'll want to hang back until your tank or initiator goes in and the focus is turned towards them. At that point, you can move in and then use your abilities when the time is right. Sometimes it's immediately-- pop your ult and SL and then auto away; but other times you'll want to wait, such as when some enemies get low and there's a Jereziah on the other team. It's all situational.

At the closest, you want to be towards the middle-back of the whole team fight. Ideally, you won't be any closer than 500-600 range from enemy heroes, but still close enough for GoS to affect them.
Best way I can hypethetically put it, if you were playing with smart people, you would want to be in front of a Thunderbringer but behind an Engineer-- that's your sweet spot. Either way, you want to make sure you're at least enough in the thick of things for your Glyph of Silence to affect every enemy player involved in the team fight.

Here is a really short video that shows a Vindicator getting a quad kill:
Vindicator Quad Kill (POSITIONING!!) (http://www.xfire.com/video/22c9aa/)
Honestly it's all from the help of his team mates, but pay close attention to this Vindy's positioning throughout the team battle-- it's exactly what I'm talking about. He even throws out a SL from the bushes like I said above, too xD
4. Countering Vindicator

Avoid picking heroes that have channeling/cast time ults (:succ:, :fors:, :magm:, etc) because he will limit your ult if you get to cast it at all
Try to avoid picking heroes that rely on "clutch" spellcasting (:jera:, :soulr:, :krak:) because he will stop you from casting when you really need to
Try to avoid picking chaincast/combo spell heroes (:wret:, :pyro:, :witc:, :pebb:, etc) because Glyph of Silence will have you dancing in circles in team fights
If you're in a lane against him and he's raping you, call for a lane switch/gank-- do not try to "tough it out" if you're struggling to stay in lane
The best way to shut down a Vindy is to gank him early on. Vindicator is an extremely weak hero and has no real escape mechanism (main reason why he can't be an int carry), so he falls like a cardhouse early game. He's about the easiest hero to kill early with a stun-stun-pew combo. If you can stop him/delay him from getting a core item (like Kuldra's or SS), he will be much less useful to his team and deal a lot less damage.

To continue to shut him down mid game, try to either focus him in team fights or control him at crucial times. A good Vindicator will try his hardest to avoid both of these things (see positioning above), but if he shows his face in a team fight, he should be quick to dispatch at nearly any point in the game and focusing him in a fight will most likely cause him to panic and use his ult early or be forced to before he dies.
Try stunning/sheeping/cycloning him when you know he'll use his ultimate, such as right after Kraken's ult ports, and ideally you can get off the spells you need to dispatch the other team before he can prevent it.

Great counterpicks against Vindy are heroes like Slither, Arachna, Wildsoul, etc. Heroes like these heroes aren't hurt by silence and hit hard, and will easily take down a weak Vindicator in a team fight with the right support from team mates.
5. Items Not Mentioned

After reading my guide, you may be left asking "where is X item in this guide wtfxzor?!!?!!!11"
I'll go through some of the items I've seen in other builds that I don't prefer and discuss them a little bit in this section.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_NomesWisdom.jpg
Nome's Wisdom. Don't get me wrong-- an excellent support item. But like it doesn't fit quite as well as what other items do on Vindy and should be left for another team mate to build.
The fact of the matter is your abilities are easily spammable with a high amount of intelligence, and so you personally do not benefit highly from the mana regen, and you would better benefit the team by getting something to disable the other team or just keep yourself alive longer.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Summon.jpg
Puzzlebox. Hmm, a toughy. Yes, this is a good item on a lot of heroes, and to be completely honest it's not bad on Vindicator. I'd even go so far as to say it's a good item to use to counter invisible heroes *only if* you are having trouble against them (i.e. not as a precautionary measure, go for the core build first and then adapt to this if NH or Scout or whoever invisible is raping you/your team).
The reason it's not so great on you is because this item really shines when the user has some sort of innate disable (preferably a stun, but a slow/transfigure/immobilization works, too) to use on an enemy and let the little creeps pound away at the enemy. But since you have no stun, slow, immobil., etc. the little guys just aren't quite as effective for you. Now, that's not to say that the invisibility reveal and mana burns do not matter-- I'm just simply saying that this item will not see its full potential on Vindicator.
It is yet another support item that I'd rather see one of your other support allies get, because it is less beneficial for you than other items. But overall, it's a better choice than the above two.
The situation where this would be most effective for you would be after you have a Kuldra's, but that would take one hell of a farm, no? :p

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Protect.jpg
Null Stone. Great item, but not for you. For one, you silence like no other, so spells shouldn't be hurting you that much, and if they are it's probably because the every hero on the enemy team has a stun and they're throwing them all on you (so nullifying one won't be that helpful). In that situation, you should get a Shrunken Head. If you're really being hurt by a spellcaster, magic armor is a better option because it's cheap and adds survivability. If you're getting hurt by suprise casts, consider changing up your positioning... This item is only viable in really extreme cases.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Freeze.jpg
Frostwolf Skull. Does give you one cool thing-- makes your ultimate apply the slow to every enemy hero globally. But overall, for the amount of gold it costs the stats are lacking and the orb won't work with Master's Incantation. Should only be bought in really extreme farm situations in long games.

http://www.heroesofnewerth.com/images/items/Item_Gloves3.jpg
Alchemist Bones. NO! This item is another no-no. Your gold can be better spent elsewhere.
The argument behind buying alchemist bones is typically that you want to get it early if your farm is going really well and you have some spare cash, because it will increase your farm power while giving you some bonus attack speed. This is a very sound argument, but it mostly applies to carries and heroes who spend the whole game farming. You, however, are going to be in the fray the entire game. Even if you go a "carry build" and carry (not recommended), you won't be the typical carry that sits in the woods and farms all day, avoiding team fights till 40+ minutes (like a :wild:, :pred:, :mage:, etc.). So spending 1900g on this item will seriously hamper you in a point in the game where you could really shine by spending that gold on getting some support items (for you and your team), an escape mechanism (like SS or Void Talisman), or even just +int items.
Also remember that INT > IAS for you, it just gives you more raw damage in terms of bang for your buck since it not only increases your primary attribute damage but also your Master's Incantation (double-whammy). Pretty much all of the IAS you'll need for the game is going to come from Steamboots-- the rest of your itemization should be focused on int, int, int.
MAIN POINT:
If you are farming well enough early game to warrant getting Alchemist Bones, you should instead try to either (1) get as much +int as you can or (2) finish a support item really fast (Kuldras). You can work toward bothat once by just buying an Acolyte's Staff (only 800g more than Alchemist Bones), which is what I do and have done when I farm that well.
If you get a high amount of intellect early enough, you will rape your opponents in a matter of 3-4 MI's. Alchemist Bones is gearing you for late game, and while you are more useful than almost any other Int hero late game, you're more geared for early/mid game. See how it doesn't make sense?
6. Replays

27317726

By no means a pro match, but it's a good start til I can get some more replays up. Pretty good example of the "Counter-carry" method I was talking about as you'll notice I shut down Puppet Master early game. Important things to notice:

Early game harass-- notice how I control Puppet hard core

Sage's Lore: watch how I keep the lane at no mana, and also notice where I cancel puppet's health potion from fog with it.
Auto'ing: Watch how I don't allow the other team to farm at all in the lane. Constant Sage's Lore combined with a smack in the face every time they approach the lane. Since I warded their creep pull, they had nowhere to go.

Item build: Notice that I went Power Supply-- great item to counter Pharoah, and at one point in the mid game when we're pushing middle lane, saves my life. Also went SS, mostly because of Blood Hunter. Watch as I port to our bottom rax right at the end of the game to defend against BH and use SS on myself, preventing me from getting killed and allowing my team to finish him off.
Watch the several different applications of the ultimate. While not all of them were perfect, just pay attention to when I use it. Pebbles blinks in and initiates--> as soon as his stun wears off, I pop it. Important for team fight control. I was constantly communicating with the team (specifically Pebbs), letting them know when to go in and that I'll ult once they do.

269893

A rough start here (especially for me), but we pull it together in the end by winning the team fights by a landslide. A few beautiful examples of how Glyph of Silence and Final Chapter can really screw up the other team in team fights.
HERE (http://www.fileplay.net/channels/honcast/12638/gamereplays-season-3-invitational-semi-finals-ice-vs-xfin-game-1) is a link to the Gamereplays Season 3 Invitational matchup between ICE and xFin.

AMXZaku runs "The Classic" skill build and solo's mid, and rushes an Astrolabe. Really good example of how this skill build can be effective in the right situation and how supportive astrolabe can be in clutch situations. The ending fight right before the concede vote is a perfect example.
If you want an example of what NOT to do...

Click HERE (http://www.fileplay.net/channels/honcast/12928/honor-tournament-invitational-2nd-round-sk-vs-dm-game-3) for the HONOR tournament game 3 of SK vs DM. It's a quick watch-- only ~20 minutes of gameplay.

Disclaimer: The following is purely my opinion, I'm not flaming, and I am of course in no way saying that AngryTestie is a bad Vindicator player or bad in general, nor am I saying it was all his fault they lost the game (there were a ton of factors). He is obviously a great player (and leaps and bounds better than me), I just disagree with some of his skill and item choices for this particular game.

Skill build choices: Sage's Lore is pretty much ineffective vs Hag who has a blink for 60 mana. Someone brought up a relatively good point that he could force the blink and thus stop him from blinking onto him and bursting, but in my opinion GoS would have done this more effectively, as he would be silenced in between casts-- IF you were to worry about this at all. In this particular situation, I would have gone stats and MI to orb-walk harass and out last-hit. He gimped himself by getting 3 points in Sage's Lore that he mostly didn't use much and when he did it was more or less useless, and as a result had less stats and/or didn't have GoS for the early team fights which would have helped the team a lot.
Item choices: While his goals with this items were down the right path (survivability), I think there were better choices than two Bracers. With the amount of magic damage on the opposing team, I would have gotten a Mystic Vestments early and then worked on something like an Astrolabe to aid the team. The strength Treads gave enough of an HP pool for this game in my opinion, he just needed a little magic armor and then a burst heal from Astro would be a huge help to the team.
7. Questions/Requests

I'll reserve this area I get to posted questions/arguments/requests of information that should be added in. Feel free to post a comment and I'll address it here.

Swaggler: can u reffer to alchemist bones on vindi? is this good on him if say you are doing good early, because mid - late game it gets really hard to get gold.
Added to "Items Not Mentioned" (see above). Thanks Variance!
:vind::vind::vind:___:vind::vind::vind:__:vind:___ ___:vind:
:vind:___________:vind:_____:vind::vind:___:vind:
:vind::vind:________:vind:_____:vind:__:vind:_:vin d:
:vind:___________:vind:_____:vind:___:vind::vind:
:vind:________:vind::vind::vind:__:vind:______:vin d:___:vind:

Hope my guide helped you find what you were looking for. If not, post a comment and I'll address it :)

Pikling

05-15-2010, 05:52 AM

Also note that you can use Stormspirit on your self to gain 2,5 sec invub. Which is extremely extremely useful late game

But nice guide otherwise

Pikling

05-15-2010, 06:03 AM

Although one thing you need imo, if you really want the guide to be good / outstanding is some advice on when you should pop your ult against diffrent setups / heroes as this differs extremely, or when to cast it when you intiate, aka when its most optimal compared to your diffrent initiators and so on.

And maybe a section on how to counter vindi aswell

nitestryker

05-15-2010, 06:09 AM

nice guide,

although i've found him much better as a tank to abuse his silence which makes him imba. He has so low hp as well so vanguard is a must. I used to play him by stacking int but i've found tanking up is generally better for the team if u already have a carry.

Swaggler

05-16-2010, 12:15 PM

Malfunction

05-18-2010, 11:58 AM

Great guide. Thanks!

Swaggler

05-20-2010, 09:21 AM

Great guide. Thanks!

Thanks mate. Newly updated!

lsdafjkl`sd

05-20-2010, 07:59 PM

LevenT shows off the classic build here 1549405, stacks intelligence to achieve massive damage output. Enjoy

Swaggler

05-24-2010, 12:00 PM

LevenT shows off the classic build here 1549405, stacks intelligence to achieve massive damage output. Enjoy

Great replay man, thanks!

ulat

05-27-2010, 05:35 AM

excellent guide!
I LOVE the font coloring, it draws attention and it helped A LOT!

it deserves premium IMO :)

Variance

05-27-2010, 06:33 AM

Why isnt this Premium????? Premium it now!

Swaggler

05-27-2010, 02:29 PM

excellent guide!
I LOVE the font coloring, it draws attention and it helped A LOT!

it deserves premium IMO :)

Why isnt this Premium????? Premium it now!

Thanks guys, glad you liked it :)

Yeah I submitted it via pm to the 4 moderators like is says to on the "Premium Guides" post, but I haven't heard anything back yet... Guess I'll try again soon?

Stokkolm

05-27-2010, 03:38 PM

Talon`

05-27-2010, 08:30 PM

Variance

05-28-2010, 12:45 AM

Vindicator can carry pretty well, without sacrificing his support role

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=2452470
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8348/shot0009xw.jpg

Almost 3000 hitpoints, 30 armor, hitting for 300 normal damage +140 true damage at about 2 attacks per second. :)

mmm I mean nice items and stats. but , your missing the stun / sheep item, wich I reaqlly think its gr8 for the team and core as the guide says.

you went for a more individual build, wich is not rly needed if your team is built correctly, but if you lack carrying power, then yea, this build would be awsome.

checking out all the replays including this.

Swaggler: can u reffer to alchemist bones on vindi? is this good on him if say you are doing good early, because mid - late game it gets really hard to get gold.

Swaggler

05-28-2010, 09:15 AM

I tried out your starting build and while its decent, I find myself spamming SL to no end and run out of mana very fast. So recently I've been using this set of starting items:

1x Runes
2x Healthpot
3x Manapot
3x Minor Totem

If I need to buy a courier, I drop 2 totems and a health pot and ferry those over later or just go right into my talismans. All the regen in this opening build is enough to keep me and my lane partner up for quite a while.

Yeah, I understand your problem, and you're right-- you will run out of mana with my starting build. But that's why I recommend that you ferry yourself mana potions on your courier, as I said in the guide under my starting build.
Pretty much every game if I go the Standard build, I wait till I get just around 500 gold, then I throw two Pretenders Crowns :PretendersCrown: and two mana potions on the courier and bring it out to me (and possibly another set of runes if needed). I guess I should be more clear about this.
There's really nothing wrong with the starting build you're going, but the problem is that minor totems don't help your itemization since you shouldn't be making a power supply or anything else involving totems. With my starting build, you'll have 3 more int, which can help your last hitting and orb walking for harass and it will get you into your early game build quicker.

Vindicator can carry pretty well, without sacrificing his support role

http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/m...hp?mid=2452470 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=2452470)
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8348/shot0009xw.jpg

Almost 3000 hitpoints, 30 armor, hitting for 300 normal damage +140 true damage at about 2 attacks per second. :smile:

I agree with Variance here. You played really well and farmed well, too, but NH or Engi could have easily carried that game and you might have been better off in a more supportive role... but either way your team won and you kicked butt so like I said, it just depends on the situation.
Vindicator was a great choice for this game (rapes all their lineup minus maybe arachna?), and though I normally don't recommend Hellflower, it was a good choice this game (mostly because of Hag, Defiler as well though).
The only thing that makes almost zero sense to me in your inventory is Frostwolf... not sure what that's about. I'd imagine a Sheepstick would have been a better choice, but again, you did well so who can say?
Great replay though, thanks for the post!

Swaggler: can u reffer to alchemist bones on vindi? is this good on him if say you are doing good early, because mid - late game it gets really hard to get gold.

Certainly, I'll add it to questions/requests (or maybe items not mentioned...) right now, just give me a bit :smile:
I'm also going to address why I didn't mention Power Supply as well.

Keep the posts coming guys!

Stokkolm

05-29-2010, 05:45 AM

Chaosmango

05-29-2010, 04:09 PM

i go with this build i amde myself
at the beginning talisman of exile and healstuff of your choice or hc, if you can afford it (like in ar or stuff)
then ghost marchers (i don't like to be a slow-low)
then for helm of the black legion
now you may think its retarded, but since vindi is a hard lategamer, it paid off to buy this at the beginning
then of course nullstone, for more survivability
after that frostfield palte, if u still keep dieing too much or kuldra for a disable

and for the skillbuild except for the ult i go like
sage's lore > glyph of silence

means:
lvl1 sl
lvl2 gos
lvl3 sl

etcetc
after uve done it like this if u farmed well, u should hav your helm at lvl 11ish and that menas u go for manatube next
as soon as u got that, u can begin to skill master's incantation instead of getting stats (since SL and GoS should be maxed out anyways till now)

to sum it up:
survive early, pwn late
i even got to be the main-carry with this build

ah, found something
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=2596503

not my best match, but u get my point

Swaggler

05-31-2010, 04:18 PM

Frostwolf is quite popular on vindicator in competitive games. It has 10 less intelligence than kuldra, but a ton more hit points, and while it lacks the single target disable, it transforms his ultimate into an imba global silence + slow. A shame the slow orb doesn't stack with master's incatation.

And yeah, kuldra is better than hellflower, but not when their carry sucks.

I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't know that-- map-slow is pretty good, I'll have to add that into my guide somewhere, though I still don't believe it should be core.
Yeah and still good choice on the Hellflower like I said.

i go with this build i amde myself
at the beginning talisman of exile and healstuff of your choice or hc, if you can afford it (like in ar or stuff)
then ghost marchers (i don't like to be a slow-low)
then for helm of the black legion
now you may think its retarded, but since vindi is a hard lategamer, it paid off to buy this at the beginning
then of course nullstone, for more survivability
after that frostfield palte, if u still keep dieing too much or kuldra for a disable

and for the skillbuild except for the ult i go like
sage's lore > glyph of silence

means:
lvl1 sl
lvl2 gos
lvl3 sl

etcetc
after uve done it like this if u farmed well, u should hav your helm at lvl 11ish and that menas u go for manatube next
as soon as u got that, u can begin to skill master's incantation instead of getting stats (since SL and GoS should be maxed out anyways till now)

to sum it up:
survive early, pwn late
i even got to be the main-carry with this build

ah, found something
http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/m...hp?mid=2596503 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=2596503)

not my best match, but u get my point

I don't agree with your build at all, and the replay you linked is EM. This guide was designed around non-EM.

DemoniWaari

05-31-2010, 04:36 PM

Swaggler

06-01-2010, 10:06 AM

Aaah! Great guide, really awesome! My build is pretty much the same but I tend to go pretty much always for stormspirit, it's even better now because you can help friends too!

But yeah I need to check out that "destroy midsolo pebbles / dw" strat :)

BTW does tablet disjoint?

Thanks :p

I do agree-- seems lately I've been getting SS more and more unless I'm really owning early game (which doesn't happen a lot).
I'm pretty sure tablet disassembles, but I'm going to have to check on that and get back to you!

__a

06-06-2010, 12:31 AM

Swaggler

06-07-2010, 03:15 PM

I've noticed that if you play Vindi as support and farm the core very slowly, you can eventually start using the second spell to own carries and tanks, allowing you to "carry" your team.

However, most people tell me that I should be farming towards helm, 3/4x fortified braclets, and other survivability items.

Is it all right if I tell them Swaggler said that int gain is what Vindi most requires?

Well, yes and no. You can tell people that I say buying support/disable items (which happen to have intel) is better than buying survivability items (HotBL, bracelets, etc.).
I'd refrain from having you tell them I said that int gain is what he "most requires," because I don't agree with that when it's put exactly like that.
Int gain is important, it's just not the most important-- the most important part is getting an item that gives your team a disable and you an escape route if necessary (sheep or cyclone). In really tough games, a Void Talisman will do way more for less money than other tanky/hp items.

The best point you can argue is that if the other team wants to focus you, you're going down whether you have 4 braclets and a helm or not. You're just that squishy, you have no tank, heal, or escape abilities.
However, if you activate a Void Talisman they'll be forced to attack someone else; or if you disable a key enemy from the other team you're much more likely to survive and your team is more likely to win the team fight. Pure tank items don't do these things, and they don't give you int-- they simply make it take a few more seconds for you to go down rather than turning the tide of the battle by gaining control of the situation.

If they're that worried about it, link them to the thread and they can read for themselves :)

_blomman

06-07-2010, 04:40 PM

i LOVE vindicator (got like 25% vindi :D). i've been playing him a lot since it went retail. This guide is great but i have some thoughts on items.

My starting build usually is :Courier: :MinorTotem: :MinorTotem: :ManaPotion: :ManaPotion: :HealthPotion: :RunesOfTheBlight: .

Don't you think you have not enough regen? I know you can send it with courier but it's good having. I usually babysit so i don't need the damage for last hitting.

And I feel a power supply is usually better than a second talisman of exile.

Just some thoughts, great guide though :)

__a

06-07-2010, 09:44 PM

Thank you for clarifying. I see what you mean now.

Swaggler

06-08-2010, 02:07 PM

My starting build usually is :Courier: :MinorTotem: :MinorTotem: :ManaPotion: :ManaPotion: :HealthPotion: :RunesOfTheBlight: .

Don't you think you have not enough regen? I know you can send it with courier but it's good having. I usually babysit so i don't need the damage for last hitting.

And I feel a power supply is usually better than a second talisman of exile.

Just some thoughts, great guide though :)

I find it's usually OK to rely on ferrying some more regen out. Even when I babysit and I'm not last hitting, I like to have the extra damage for harassing.

Honestly, a Power Supply isn't a bad option, it's just that it costs a little more gold and gives you 3 less intel, and it doesn't synergize well with you since you prevent people from casting their spells so much (ideally they have no mana to cast spells in lane, and in team fights they're silenced a lot by you). Switching out a Talisman for a Power Supply is a matter of preference and honestly won't alter the item build much, so if it works for you, go for it :)

Glad you liked the guide!

Thank you for clarifying. I see what you mean now.

No problem, glad to help!

Clyne

06-11-2010, 11:01 AM

Kcolraw

06-12-2010, 02:41 PM

2 talismans is way safer with bracers and power supply

i find astrolabe most of the time core on vindicator tbh

starting items here are horrible... chicken/wards + 2 minor totems + 2 x tangos + 2 mana pots is so much more solid and SAFE

you shouldn't be last hitting much anyway, just orb walk harass and give the gold to your carry, so really no point focusing so much on "int"

a few spammy heroes you listed like armadon are kind of (soft) counters to (early game) vindi

Swaggler

06-15-2010, 10:17 AM

Problem I've been having playing vindi is that I get so focused ppl even tower dive at you cuz they know you will die in a sec.. I dosn't matter if I am the last person in team battles I get focused all the time.... this makes me quit a hero like this, but I like his skill set and potential lategame.
If you're having this problem I strongly suggest you get a Void Talisman. It will make a world of difference, especially when a hero tower dives you and then *oh crap* you're immune to physical.

2 talismans is way safer with bracers and power supply

i find astrolabe most of the time core on vindicator tbh

starting items here are horrible... chicken/wards + 2 minor totems + 2 x tangos + 2 mana pots is so much more solid and SAFE

You can believe what you want, but I disagree. As I outline in the guide, Power Supply is somewhat counterproductive for Vindicator since ideally you're draining the opponents' mana or silencing them so much that you won't be building enough charges to utilize it as much.

I also don't understand how your version of the starting build is so much more "SAFE." By going that route, you simply have 2 more strength than my build, so I'd say if you're really that worried about survival just buy a Pretender's Crown instead of the two Mark of the Novices and you'll get the same amount of +hp and be able to turn it into a Talisman of Exile later instead of a less useful Power Supply. Other than that your build just has more regen, which as I've said numerous times already, your team should have a chicken and you can ferry those items to you without a problem (I do pretty much every single game w/ Vindy).

you shouldn't be last hitting much anyway, just orb walk harass and give the gold to your carry, so really no point focusing so much on "int"

This really just makes me convinced that you didn't read my guide. I say in the laning strategy in multiple areas that your best role is to baby sit and not take gold from your carry. The added int helps you (as also say) to orb-walk harass because you'll deal more damage to the enemy.

Almittamon

06-15-2010, 03:22 PM

I have actully found, that if you are in a situation when you are not the main carry, and thus will not do the lasthitting, Armor + HP makes you a really good support kinda hero. GoS silences for 3 secs every spellcast, and staying alive longer makes you a real pain to your enemys.

LordStorm

06-21-2010, 03:52 PM

Mateui

06-21-2010, 08:58 PM

Anti

06-22-2010, 03:25 PM

I've recently been trying a new build on Vindi that I have found to be successful in increasing his survivability. Most players get only glyph of silence at level 1 early for the INT steal during the laning phase, and then focus on levelling Sage's Lore and Incantation, but I find if you skip over Incantation and level Lore along with Glyph of Silence, the 2.25-3 second silence at levels 8/9 is extremely useful. This is the portion of the game when ganks are occuring and team fights are about to begin - the difference between 0.5 seconds and 3 seconds at this point is huge! Most gankers rely on comboing for kills - but that 3 seconds severely limits their ability to do so and results in them not getting their typical gank killing farm, setting them back in money and experience.

I haven't found myself thinking "Oh, I wish I had incantation" because last hitting with vindi isn't that hard, and you don't even have that much intelligence at those lower levels. Plus Sage's Lore is enough to harass away those laning against you. (Never use it at level 1, it's not worth it. Wait until it's level 2 and then occasionally use it. Start spamming it when it's at level 3).

This is how I skill Vindi now:
1. Sage's Lore
2. Glyph of Silence
3. Sage's Lore
4. Sage's Lore
5. Glyph of Silence
6. Final Chapter
7. Sage's Lore
8. Glyph of Silence
9. Glyph of Silence
10. Now start levelling Incantation

It's more of a defensive build, but the great thing is it makes a huge difference in that first team fight, and if that goes successfully, your team will slowly snowball in levels/items.

Item-wise I only get Steamboots and a Power Supply, and then go straight for a Nullstone (while spending some money on wards in the meantime). Anything after that is luxury.

I was just going to write a post very similar to this. Your skill build is impossible though. It has to go:

1. SL
2. GoS
3. SL
4. GoS
5. SL
6. FC
7. SL
8. GoS
9. GoS

After playing Vindicator for several games I've found this skill build to be the most useful. A lot of the best early game gank heroes really on burst damage and chain casting. A level 3 glyph at 9 puts a stop top that real fast. Hell, just having Gos at level 2 in the lane will make it very hard for the other team to kill you. I really think people misunderstand how powerful GoS is. Just a 1.5s silence is the difference between getting ganked and escaping. This skill build may appear to be more defensive but works great in an offensive lineup. Vindi has no reason to just sit in a lane. He doesn't need items to be useful. He can roam around with teammates and aid in ganks. Your stolen intelligence will build up very quickly if he is active in team fights and ganks early. Sages lore is also a perfect gank tool. Think about how often that hero you are trying to kill is running away with almost no life and no mana but can't be killed due to fog. One SL and he's dead.

I have no problem with incantation but it isn't doing anything for vindi at level 1. It has a 3s cooldown at level 1 and is only dealing an additional 15% true damage. You aren't going to be orb walking people to death. Avoiding creep agro is nice but proper positioning will minimize that damage. Vindi is not a carry but can provide noticeable dps throughout mid and into late game if played properly early. If your team has 20 kills in 20 minutes and you were there for 60% of them you just gained 12 int and probably prevented plenty of deaths for your team.

I have to comment on your thoughts on power supply as well. I disagree that it is somehow counter-intuitive. The item makes perfect sense on Vindicator. What happens when you SL heroes? They cast a spell, one charge. I understand that they are going to be out of mana soon and wont be able to keep casting spells. This probably won't be happening mid game too often but SL will force spells out of people. The mana drain tapers off but 400 total damage DoT will hurt still hurt so enemies will cast asap. Before fights Vindi can get 5+ charges easy and if positioned correctly silence those who just cast which would be a great time for his team to initate and Vindi still has FC in his back pocket. So yes, the charges won't fill up as fast but it will fill and that burst regen can save Vindi's life. Also it's +3 to stats and can replace a Talisman/Bracer. That extra +3 to intel or str is not gonna matter but a well timed 225hp burst will.

The above starting items suggested with courier and manapots now becomes ideal with this skill build. With two manapots Vindi will oom every hero except slither, armadon, and maybe nymphora. Aggressive sage spam from level 1 (against certain heroes) will make that lane rather easy. When that mid comes to gank all he can hope for is that his partners can autoattack well and he's gonna be suprised to be silenced for 1.5s as well.

You are 100% correct when you say playstyle, not items keeps Vindi alive. my core looks like:

Steamboots
Powersupply
Void Talisman
Wards

That's it. If you are doing so well that you can shell out 2k+ on one itemthen you've more than likely won that game. I'd say tablet has the most utility for it's price so I'll often grab that but the new changes to stormspirit make it very viable.

Swaggler

06-29-2010, 03:13 PM

Just played my first game as :vind: after reading this guide. Went 13-2 and dominated right alongside our carry. Would've been hard NOT to rack up kills. :KuldrasSheepstick: was awesome on him.

Thanks!

Good! Glad to help :)

After playing Vindicator for several games I've found this skill build to be the most useful. A lot of the best early game gank heroes really on burst damage and chain casting. A level 3 glyph at 9 puts a stop top that real fast. Hell, just having Gos at level 2 in the lane will make it very hard for the other team to kill you. I really think people misunderstand how powerful GoS is. Just a 1.5s silence is the difference between getting ganked and escaping. This skill build may appear to be more defensive but works great in an offensive lineup. Vindi has no reason to just sit in a lane. He doesn't need items to be useful. He can roam around with teammates and aid in ganks. Your stolen intelligence will build up very quickly if he is active in team fights and ganks early. Sages lore is also a perfect gank tool. Think about how often that hero you are trying to kill is running away with almost no life and no mana but can't be killed due to fog. One SL and he's dead.

I have no problem with incantation but it isn't doing anything for vindi at level 1. It has a 3s cooldown at level 1 and is only dealing an additional 15% true damage. You aren't going to be orb walking people to death. Avoiding creep agro is nice but proper positioning will minimize that damage. Vindi is not a carry but can provide noticeable dps throughout mid and into late game if played properly early. If your team has 20 kills in 20 minutes and you were there for 60% of them you just gained 12 int and probably prevented plenty of deaths for your team.

I have to comment on your thoughts on power supply as well. I disagree that it is somehow counter-intuitive. The item makes perfect sense on Vindicator. What happens when you SL heroes? They cast a spell, one charge. I understand that they are going to be out of mana soon and wont be able to keep casting spells. This probably won't be happening mid game too often but SL will force spells out of people. The mana drain tapers off but 400 total damage DoT will hurt still hurt so enemies will cast asap. Before fights Vindi can get 5+ charges easy and if positioned correctly silence those who just cast which would be a great time for his team to initate and Vindi still has FC in his back pocket. So yes, the charges won't fill up as fast but it will fill and that burst regen can save Vindi's life. Also it's +3 to stats and can replace a Talisman/Bracer. That extra +3 to intel or str is not gonna matter but a well timed 225hp burst will.

The above starting items suggested with courier and manapots now becomes ideal with this skill build. With two manapots Vindi will oom every hero except slither, armadon, and maybe nymphora. Aggressive sage spam from level 1 (against certain heroes) will make that lane rather easy. When that mid comes to gank all he can hope for is that his partners can autoattack well and he's gonna be suprised to be silenced for 1.5s as well.

Hmm, you do bring up some solid points. I'm going to have to try out some of this stuff and see if it's worthwhile to include it in the guide. That's definitely the best argument I've had for Power Supply.
I still find that the whole mana pot issue works just fine by ferrying a couple to yourself... I mean seriously, how long does it take to build up 50 or 100 gold? You can easily gain that much before you run out of mana.
But I do seriously want to try out that skill build and maybe I'll even try a Power Supply again and see how it goes. Glad you liked the guide overall :)

voidpredator

06-30-2010, 07:03 AM

KingTitan

07-03-2010, 10:18 AM

This guide is terrible. We should premium it.

Clyne

07-04-2010, 08:12 AM

thanks for the guide

vramirez

07-17-2010, 06:57 AM

hi, i ve read ur guide and it helped me playing vindi a lot, thank you for that !
well there re some points i disagree with now after testing.
I dont know the math but i really feal like u get more dmg output with hellflower then with kudras. its like with hellflover hitting 3 times with 90 true dmg while with kudras i hit only 2 times with 100 true damage, having steamboots on int and frostfield. Thats when i toggle orb autoattack on ofc.
2nd on that is kudras is just to hard to farm and ur just not that thread in the early game as u are if u got just one blessed orb. So i made hellflower core for myself.And yeah i kow kudras effect is better then hellflowers !
I use hellflower to prevent mb , valk , madman, scout from escaping and i use hellflower on ara before she throws that spiderling on me , instead of my ult wich has a way to high cd to be used for such stuff !

about zephyr, i think vindi owns zeph, no matter how tanky he is true dmg ll hurt him and sl ll make him use his zyclones, makim him a lil more squishy...

MumbaiMan

07-26-2010, 02:34 PM

nice guide

ZyV

08-24-2010, 12:26 AM

thx for this nice guide,

here are my 2 cents,

start items :

:Courier: :RunesOfTheBlight: :MarkOfTheNovice: :CrushingClaws: 590 gold

then buy asap in side shop :

:TrinketOfRestoratio

and now you have a sexy blood chalice that will help you laning with some nice and cheap stats + hp reg + some EXTRA mana so you can spam your skills.

11-08-2010, 02:34 PM

SmokeShow

11-08-2010, 03:52 PM

I would very much highly recommend you put Panda in the list of people Vindi counters.

Panda strongly relies on his ability to do combo attacks to be effective. With Vindi near by panda is rendered almost completely useless.

MoTzin

12-06-2010, 12:08 AM

Can the OP edit this so it is current and can be put in the guide list?

nclnck

12-06-2010, 02:19 AM

Wonderful guide, very detailed explanation of Vindi's playstyle, and your justification of item choices and skill builds is informative and helpful. Should be premium (!)

Griddler

12-07-2010, 11:21 AM

I've been having fun playing vindicator and trying to make him work vs more lineups.

I find that there are a lot of heroes that can't handle the sage's lore spam early on, and also many heroes that get obliterated by the glyph of silence (panda, pyro, chipper, behemoth, etc). The ult canceling some global channel like tempest ulti is great but not often the main thing I count on.

Starting items (usual):

2: courier, 1x runes, 1x +3int 1x+3str

Gets you blood chalice early to allow max sage's lore spam. Once enemy is oom you don't have to worry as much about gulping away some of your hp and waiting for the regen ;)

Upgrade courier, try to get a ward or two up...

Then I focus on getting ghost marchers. I know the +10 str/int from steamboots would be juicy but I feel the faster move speed is more likely to save my ass than 10 str in any situation where either could matter ><

This I guess is where I have a question - do you find it worth making fortified bracers on vindi? Or should you save the $ towards a stormspirit/tablet? I'm always nervous about going for stormspirit because mana regen and +int do not help me survive...

If things go well I try to go straight for the blessed orb, then manatube (to allow me to keep masters incantation up all the time) and finally staff for kuldra.

My build I usually skip incantation early on in favour of glyph/lore. Having a full glyph fairly early on makes a big diff in ganks and teamfights i find. 3.5s silence is huge compared to 0.75.

Angusiasty

12-10-2010, 02:35 PM

22618123 (http://replays.heroesofnewerth.com/match_replay.php?mid=22618123) carry vindicator is the only way to play him :p

Swaggler

01-21-2011, 09:51 AM

*I am planning on doing a major revision to this guide to make it current and take another crack at getting premium*

Just FYI

Swaggler

01-24-2011, 09:57 AM

/bump :D

Revision complete. Updated for version 2.0.8 of HoN. I'll regularly update from here on out, too. Feel free to ask any questions and/or leave any comments, I'll be glad to help!

pootytoo

01-26-2011, 02:47 AM

i have a friend that contends that thunderclaw is the tits with vindi please tell me i am right that he is and moron.

Swaggler

01-27-2011, 11:02 AM

i have a friend that contends that thunderclaw is the tits with vindi please tell me i am right that he is and moron.

Yeah, you're right-- he's a moron. That item isn't even worth putting under "items not mentioned" because it's so retarded. :blac:

I don't believe it will proc with MI... but I'm not 100% sure. Either way, stupid item to get on him.

Swaggler

01-27-2011, 04:32 PM

Sorry for the late reply on this one... I missed it somehow :S

This I guess is where I have a question - do you find it worth making fortified bracers on vindi? Or should you save the $ towards a stormspirit/tablet? I'm always nervous about going for stormspirit because mana regen and +int do not help me survive...

If things go well I try to go straight for the blessed orb, then manatube (to allow me to keep masters incantation up all the time) and finally staff for kuldra.
In general, you want to avoid Fortified Bracers. There's just better survival items out there for Vindi (like Astro, HotBL, Void Tal). The only situation where you'd want to get them is if you were REALLY starved for gold and having serious survivability issues from burst damage (say, vs like Deadwood and he's just raping you over and over and over). But if you can hold out a little longer to get a better survivability item, do so.

Your build-up to Kuldra is perfect. Only get the Staff first if you're having zero survivability issues (which usually means it's a stomp), otherwise the Orb is always a first, and with Chalice you shouldn't really need the Mana Tube early anyhow.

My build I usually skip incantation early on in favour of glyph/lore. Having a full glyph fairly early on makes a big diff in ganks and teamfights i find. 3.5s silence is huge compared to 0.75.
I'm finding more and more lately with the way the meta is currently that I'm almost always going Lore + Glyph early and avoiding MI til later. You're dead on. I actually changed the build up in my recent revamp to reflect what you're suggesting.

Hextech

01-28-2011, 05:22 AM

yeah, here shown one of my teammate playing vindicator today
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8056/vindicator.jpg
and i assure you, this is not EM.

That is so bad...under 60 APM is god-awful, and lifesteal doesn't stack with the orb.

Spathi

01-28-2011, 05:24 AM

That is so bad...under 60 APM is god-awful, and lifesteal doesn't stack with the orb.
The only thing here that's god-awful is your posting.

dabounca

01-28-2011, 10:26 PM

ElementUser

01-29-2011, 04:14 PM

No mention of the amazing Mystic Vestments for early-game survivability for just 400 gold & an item slot.

Chalice is pretty bad on Vindicator now, no HP regen and he's already super squishy.

Serris

01-29-2011, 04:44 PM

Now that Chalice is no longer "build on everybody lolololol", what do you suggest as far as starting items/early regen goes? I'd guess minor totems building into an early manatube for cyclone/hex.

Also, how do you go about farming the big chunks of money required for Acolyte's Staff and Ultimate Orb? Midgame, when everyone's content farming jungles and just chillin, it's easy to overextend due to lack of escapes, and he's not particularly good at instafarming waves like a DS or VJ would be. Would you recommend being part of a gank squad or just farm a lane and hope that ult+tp can save you?

Swaggler

01-29-2011, 06:29 PM

Chalice is only for a perfect lane, vindi doesn't have the hp to spare generally. Wouldn't recommend it as a primary item. The battery item is better. Enemies are forced to cast because of the drain. Them casting gives you a bonus. IF...they also got battery then you have issues.
Yeah, now that Chalice got changed/nerfed, I'm going to change the core to have Battery instead fo sho.

Incredible with team timing. He can be only as useful as the person using him. Your game becomes a game of reading. You can be 0-10 and still win the game for your team.
Sooooooo ridiculously true man. I wish more people understood that about Vindy... Good call.

No mention of the amazing Mystic Vestments for early-game survivability for just 400 gold & an item slot.

Chalice is pretty bad on Vindicator now, no HP regen and he's already super squishy.
Yeah, I have to update the guide again (notice it says updated for version 2.0.8 of HoN). Chalice is definitely a dead item for Vindi now : / IMO it was so good before, but now Power Supply rocks it.
You're right, Mystic Vestments should be in there... I often get it, in fact, thanks for that.

Now that Chalice is no longer "build on everybody lolololol", what do you suggest as far as starting items/early regen goes? I'd guess minor totems building into an early manatube for cyclone/hex.

Also, how do you go about farming the big chunks of money required for Acolyte's Staff and Ultimate Orb? Midgame, when everyone's content farming jungles and just chillin, it's easy to overextend due to lack of escapes, and he's not particularly good at instafarming waves like a DS or VJ would be. Would you recommend being part of a gank squad or just farm a lane and hope that ult+tp can save you?
Well, I have to update the guide again now (I'll do it soon). Basically it goes back to what it was before, which is: :MinorTotem::MinorTotem::RunesOfTheBlight::HealthP otion::ManaPotion::ManaPotion: plus wards/courier, and then grab a battery in the side shop and combine them with the totems for a Power Supply.

You can go the early manatube in hopes of getting cyc/hex, but that's only if you're having no survivability issues and you've got a decent gold income. Otherwise, you'll want to grab a shield for HotBL or some more totems and such for Astrolabe.
Yeah, it's hard to farm up the stuff for Sheepstick, that's why I tried to make it kind of clear (maybe I need to try harder) that it's only if you're doing pretty well... Because hopelessly going for it if you're not having a good farm will get you and your team more screwed.
Gank squad is definitely the way to go if you can, but more so just being there for all the team fights because that's how you'll be most effective for your team and it can help you get some money through assist gold. I strongly suggest avoiding farming in a lane-- as you say you'd kind of just have to get a TP scroll and hope that saves you since you don't have an escape mechanism... Plus you're not a hero that should be farming as you need to help your team in team fights with your awesome silences.

Swaggler

02-09-2011, 10:06 AM

Newly updated for the changes in the recent patch... Mostly in item builds.

Swaggler

02-25-2011, 09:47 AM

Updated again for the recent rebalance patch!