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netygraph
05-07-2010, 03:00 PM
Lots of times I've seen Pyromancer go mid, but I wonder why. Aren't carry heroes supposed to go mid and get a good farm? For me Pyromancer doesn't look like carry, he just has high damage nukes which I assume don't scale with items.

So why does Pyro go mid and is he a carry?

Meowshi
05-07-2010, 03:02 PM
Pyro is a bad mid. He is not a carry, and I'd say the only reason why he is a bad mid is because his stun takes too long to cast.

Generally you want a ganker or level dependant pusher to go mid. Not a carry.

WarKirby
05-07-2010, 03:08 PM
Aren't carry heroes supposed to go mid and get a good farm? For me Pyromancer doesn't look like carry....


Carry heroes are generally bad in the beginning, and need to be in the side lane with a babysitter who can keep them alive and not take their last-hits, so they can farm. Carries in mid are usually not a good idea because it's gold, not levels, that they need most. I think :bloo: is kind of an exception to this because he has feast which helps him stay alive against a ranged opponent and shrug off harassment.

Pyro is a non-item-dependant hero, his power is mostly dependant on his level. So it makes sense that levelling him up fast brings good rewards. He's far from the best at it though, and is generally a poor choice for mid if there's someone better around like :fors::corr:

Magiks
05-07-2010, 03:10 PM
well it really depends on the player, if you get a pyro with a quick blink he can run all over the map and win you the game. On the otherhand if he stays in lane it was a big waste

ElementUser
05-07-2010, 03:17 PM
Near the beginning of the beta he went mid because at that time, there weren't that many heroes & Pyromancer's solo mid capabilities were quite decent.

But now things have changed and there are way better solo mids than Pyro

The_Nix
05-07-2010, 04:24 PM
The only reason to put him mid now is for his ganking ability. Hard carries should not necessarily be in mid because they suck early game and would get owned.

:bloo: could be an exception but in all honestly he is one of the worst hard carries in the game and can be easily countered by sticking with your team and not moving when he ults you.

Mid is best left to gankers that can be strong early and mid game like chipper or semi carries like :souls: and :defi: that can gank as well if they need to.

kirbyruled
05-07-2010, 04:28 PM
He isn't a bad mid! Strong laning ability via nukes and range. Great ganker!

There are better mids but S-cancel stun, considerable burst and 600 range are good things!

He can also semi-carry with the right items or grab a Blink and dominate. These are both more pub oriented scenarios, as Pyro isn't really the best competitive mid (very hard to perform).

Frylock
05-07-2010, 04:29 PM
I think he's a respectable mid hero, since his burst is so good. When pyro gets a good lead on levels he can really gank the hell out of your carries and generally make life miserable.

kirbyruled
05-07-2010, 04:35 PM
I think he's a respectable mid hero, since his burst is so good. When pyro gets a good lead on levels he can really gank the hell out of your carries and generally make life miserable.

Exactly!

People just tired of seeing bad 1550s go mid Bottle first on Pyro and just rice all game to build a 35 minute SotM. Yuck!

Thus they blame my main man :pyro:

ElementUser
05-07-2010, 04:41 PM
To maximize Pyromancer mid, get a roaming Andromeda :D

kirbyruled
05-07-2010, 04:54 PM
To maximize Pyromancer mid, get a roaming Andromeda :D

Roaming Andro maximizes every mid.

pk_thunder
05-07-2010, 05:38 PM
people generally think that pyro will be ganking with that ult of his but his stun is just too hard to get off for most ganks.

mikelorus
05-07-2010, 06:35 PM
I think you're looking at it the wrong way. When you are assigning lanes (or being assigned lanes) you need to think of how much your hero(es) will control that lane.

For example, a lane of :witc::pebb: works very well. You get a very nice combo of spells, range for lane control, as well as the fact that the two heroes don't need to fight over the creep kills.

Conversely, a lane of :pebb::hamm: isn't nearly as effective because they are both melee, and will be harassed to hell despite their powerful spell combos.

Pyro goes mid, as well as FA, engi, or valk; so that they can control the lane. They are ranged, have good projectiles and damage, and they can also gank around the map.

You seem to think that mid is the lane for carries, which just isn't true. You won't see a madman go mid because he won't be able to do jack against that corrupted disciple accross the river. Of course, the ranged semi carries that i have previously mentioned can lane very well, so I can see where you would make that misconception.

The only different situation is blood hunter, who goes mid because he is pretty much impervious to harassment with good last hitting. This might be the only case where a carry goes solo mid to farm.

TreeHorse
05-07-2010, 06:35 PM
people generally think that pyro will be ganking with that ult of his but his stun is just too hard to get off for most ganks.

It's fine if you have decent side-lane disables (dsham/glacius/hb/puppet/hammer/magmus/fayde etc). Or if you are half-decent at mind-games or Stop-juking people you can hit the stun.

sukoru
05-07-2010, 06:41 PM
pyro is an ok mid, the reasoning of his stun is too slow is not a good one. imo the main reason he is only an ok mid is simply because he is awesome in a sidelane, both as a harasser and in a duel stun.

Kudryavka
05-07-2010, 07:12 PM
Problem with Pyro is that his stun is unreliable. You're much more likely to get kills with Pyro by sending him to a sidelane with a stunner. Pyro is very good against melee mids, though.

kirbyruled
05-07-2010, 08:14 PM
Problem with Pyro is that his stun is unreliable. You're much more likely to get kills with Pyro by sending him to a sidelane with a stunner. Pyro is very good against melee mids, though.

Yea this is part of it. When I think of heroes I tend to think of them individually. Outside of AP picking Pyro uses a resource, and it's hard to get enough resources to salvage strong enough side lanes to warrant a Pyro mid. For AR there is karma too!

yyr_
05-07-2010, 08:36 PM
To maximize Pyromancer mid, get a roaming Andromeda :D

And a roaming electician. If your going to do something element, gotta do it right :D

A`Doughnut
05-07-2010, 08:44 PM
Exactly!

People just tired of seeing bad 1550s go mid Bottle first on Pyro and just rice all game to build a 35 minute SotM. Yuck!

Thus they blame my main man :pyro:

I strongely disagree with this, i'm a pro pyro and i'm 1500? Bottle is great, espacily when you random and can get wards to.Like realy You dont get his other spell you only get Fever, LEVEL IT FRIST ALWAYS, and his stun. Stun and fever = massive attack speed Massive damage he can cast it all day long becuase of the bottle and the ruin contrull, he can get his ulti and just rape any one. I guesse its just me. 15/9/19 pyro every game.

Llama
05-07-2010, 08:48 PM
^lol.

Its the same reason why witch slayer is a bad mid. Needs no farm, and much more effective in a side lane. Sure you can gank earlier, but the benefits of that taper off very quickly. Much better to put a ganking semi-carry mid, like FA.
When I first started playing, I would go plague and demand mid every time. After a while I would go plague, level to 6, then let one of the carries take over. Now, I never go plague mid at all

kirbyruled
05-07-2010, 09:01 PM
I strongely disagree with this, i'm a pro pyro and i'm 1500? Bottle is great, espacily when you random and can get wards to.Like realy You dont get his other spell you only get Fever, LEVEL IT FRIST ALWAYS, and his stun. Stun and fever = massive attack speed Massive damage he can cast it all day long becuase of the bottle and the ruin contrull, he can get his ulti and just rape any one. I guesse its just me. 15/9/19 pyro every game.

wow thanks for the sig

F1
05-07-2010, 09:09 PM
I strongely disagree with this, i'm a pro pyro and i'm 1500? Bottle is great, espacily when you random and can get wards to.Like realy You dont get his other spell you only get Fever, LEVEL IT FRIST ALWAYS, and his stun. Stun and fever = massive attack speed Massive damage he can cast it all day long becuase of the bottle and the ruin contrull, he can get his ulti and just rape any one. I guesse its just me. 15/9/19 pyro every game.
Orly?






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A`Doughnut
05-07-2010, 09:42 PM
Congrats, becuase i'm young doesnt mean u have to be a douche bag. Just saying the only time i'v ever failed with my build is when i'm going aginst hag. Just becasue he can get the ruin frist and out lane :pyro:. Most defintly i get fever frist for a certain harrasing reson. Stackable damage speed increase when he uses his stun. Stun has a short CD, maybe not very effective damage wise. His other spell is that aoe short spell with a short CD. Decent can harras with it not as close as good as defilers wave not close as good as a stun. With any ruin Espacaly DD ruin he is gay and can gank outer lanes fairly easy. With haste or invise he can gank any lane with ulti as iniation stun for a catch up then finsh the kill. I'm going to post a replay and you tell me. Is it bad? Try it your selves and tell me how it works out.

Saucery
05-07-2010, 10:37 PM
you could say that he ruined your ruin control

Dr`Delicious
05-07-2010, 11:11 PM
With few exceptions, you should usually let a semi-carry hold mid. Pyromancer is also extremely strong in kill-based lanes.

However, a good Pyromancer who ganks hard and effectively can still be a better mid choice than a semi-carry, but only if his mid presence has a large effect on the game.

You just have to ask yourself which player has the skill needed for mid, and also check how the lanes will look with different combinations in the side lane.

GGreenBass
05-07-2010, 11:25 PM
Mid is for GANKERS and RANGED HEROES (imo). Why? Because people always send their ranged heroes mid, it just gives them more of advantage for one reason or another. And even if it doesn't, they'll still do it anyway, because it's just a part of HoN that's integrated into (most) people's heads.

Why Gankers? Because they don't have to port to gank, and mid has better rune access. Simple as that.

pk_thunder
05-08-2010, 01:18 AM
It's fine if you have decent side-lane disables (dsham/glacius/hb/puppet/hammer/magmus/fayde etc). Or if you are half-decent at mind-games or Stop-juking people you can hit the stun.
in 1700+ games sure

wish I was up there Q.Q

Neru
05-08-2010, 06:36 AM
He's not a bad mid, but there are better.

netygraph
05-08-2010, 07:41 AM
Thanks for the informative responses!

You say Pyro's stun is hard to land. I have yet to play Pyro so could anyone tell me how it compares with FA's root?

Flair
05-08-2010, 08:04 AM
Thanks for the informative responses!

You say Pyro's stun is hard to land. I have yet to play Pyro so could anyone tell me how it compares with FA's root?
It's harder to land.

The problem is juking, because the AoE is smaller making less room for mistake.

Portal Key helps a lot though.

Gonkor
05-08-2010, 09:00 AM
Pyro is a bad mid. He is not a carry, and I'd say the only reason why he is a bad mid is because his animation and base dmg is terrible.

Generally you want a ganker or level dependant pusher to go mid. Not a carry.
Fix'd.

mr_ICRum
05-08-2010, 09:37 AM
How is Pyros stun at all hard to land ?

And pyro should only ever mid if hes a strong ganker, that can get portal key and insta kill the other teams carries every ulti cooldown

jay`t
05-08-2010, 10:48 AM
Fix'd.

Man aint that the truth haha

pyro mid is okay, but i mean why would you take an 'okay' lane, when you could put pyro in a side lane with :blac::hamm::magm: and have a GREAT lane?

pk_thunder
05-08-2010, 10:51 AM
Man aint that the truth haha

pyro mid is okay, but i mean why would you take an 'okay' lane, when you could put pyro in a side lane with :blac::hamm::magm: and have a GREAT lane?
because ur team consists of:
:scou::nigh::mage::sand:

Sinshol
05-08-2010, 08:50 PM
He's a respectable hero with limited mid capabilities. He can handle the first 10 minutes or so mid then the opposition's mid will probably be scaled to a point where :pyro: can no longer keep up which I would then use him as a ganker/roamer for his stun and nuke.

:smile:

ko
05-09-2010, 04:11 AM
I strongely disagree with this, i'm a pro pyro and i'm 1500? Bottle is great, espacily when you random and can get wards to.Like realy You dont get his other spell you only get Fever, LEVEL IT FRIST ALWAYS, and his stun. Stun and fever = massive attack speed Massive damage he can cast it all day long becuase of the bottle and the ruin contrull, he can get his ulti and just rape any one. I guesse its just me. 15/9/19 pyro every game.

ilu :)

yoyomyhoe
05-09-2010, 04:20 AM
so he can get his KS button asap

thisNigger
05-09-2010, 04:50 AM
I strongely disagree with this, i'm a pro pyro and i'm 1500? Bottle is great, espacily when you random and can get wards to.Like realy You dont get his other spell you only get Fever, LEVEL IT FRIST ALWAYS, and his stun. Stun and fever = massive attack speed Massive damage he can cast it all day long becuase of the bottle and the ruin contrull, he can get his ulti and just rape any one. I guesse its just me. 15/9/19 pyro every game.

10/10

Gonkor
05-09-2010, 10:16 AM
Man aint that the truth haha

pyro mid is okay, but i mean why would you take an 'okay' lane, when you could put pyro in a side lane with :blac::hamm::magm: and have a GREAT lane?
Indeed. If pyro is your team's best mid they fail it, where it = everything. :mad:

Kirbywurm
05-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Congrats, becuase i'm young doesnt mean u have to be a douche bag. Just saying the only time i'v ever failed with my build is when i'm going aginst hag. Just becasue he can get the ruin frist and out lane :pyro:. Most defintly i get fever frist for a certain harrasing reson. Stackable damage speed increase when he uses his stun. Stun has a short CD, maybe not very effective damage wise. His other spell is that aoe short spell with a short CD. Decent can harras with it not as close as good as defilers wave not close as good as a stun. With any ruin Espacaly DD ruin he is gay and can gank outer lanes fairly easy. With haste or invise he can gank any lane with ulti as iniation stun for a catch up then finsh the kill. I'm going to post a replay and you tell me. Is it bad? Try it your selves and tell me how it works out.
9/10 or just a plain retard.

xMirmo
05-09-2010, 07:30 PM
How is Pyros stun at all hard to land ?

And pyro should only ever mid if hes a strong ganker, that can get portal key and insta kill the other teams carries every ulti cooldown

Pretty hard to land a stun on someone that is either running away (unless you outrun him) or knows you are going to stun due to the not-so-big radius and so-so casting time. Portalkey works wonders to fix that though.
He is MUCH better if paired with a failsafe stun in a sidelane (:magm::andr::witc::vood::hamm::blac:) thus being able to unleash his full burst