Lock this thread.

[Narfle]

Thread OST: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH4sSGTD8OI

OP:

-Observations on public outcry concerning recent events (YOU KNOW!)

-Reflections on other possible solutions.
--Suggestion towards breaking silence on why user was silenced, and in general providing such information upon request.
--Suggestion towards alternative moderation tools such as, individual thread approval system, banning individuals from specific threads, alterations of the "one post per X seconds" where X can end up very high (temporarily ofc), OT Karma system (will end in shambles).

-Ironic smile concerning the thought of a potential lock of this thread, given its title.

-Request to community that this thread doesnt not end in shitfest, but rather (at worst) a semi-constructive debate.

Listen, I made this thread this way because theres apparently a quite large amount of people raged at what happened and im fairly certain that there were a proper reason for it happening. I think some daft people underestimate the value of communication, and would it really hurt that much to say something like "loads of inappropriate pictures were posted to various officials forum pages, and punitive measures were handed out"?

When i walk down the streets and i see a guy urinating on a street sign saying "ONE WAY" and he then gets arrested, then its quite easy for me to conclude that pissing on ONE WAY signs isnt something i should do in front of law enforcement officials, if i value my freedom. Start putting in "USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST" messages, start giving actual reasons why threads are locked rather than "LOOK AT ME" pics. And sure, in some cases its obvious why threads are locked like all of these recent "iMAD" threads.

Dont tell me this thread should have been a PM, im ****ing tired of being ignored when i have a reasonable grievance and i use the PM function. Furthermore this is an issue for the public and the public have a right to have their say on it, wheter you like it or not. Youre right that theres a right way of saying things and a wrong way, thats why i made this thread the way i made it. I hope you deem this an acceptable way of having a potential discussion on something.

And just before you go "we dont need to have a discussion on this, go away", well THEY DO and THEY are your userbase and THEY buy your ****ing game and THEY play it. THEY are your most valued possessions and you need to treat them as such. Ive moderated forums of groups of people way way way way more unruly than what OT probably ever could become, and (no offence) I did a quite nice job at it by actually TALKING TO MY ****ING PLAYERS rather than just shutting up the ones i felt were annoying, by use of the forums "engine". Its real people you are dealing with, and when real people see their friends punished and dont know why, they get angry. Wouldnt you? Wouldnt you be pissed at the system if half your family were put in jail and the jail wouldnt tell you why? I would. I know im using much harsher analogies than what actually happened, but im just trying to get a point across.

So please, lets not go shitfest here, and if someone else have something they want to get off their chests regarding this topic, then do it in this thread, rather than creating 11 other threads that are more nonsensical than Xenu playing the tuba, that will get locked anyway.

Want a say? Have it here. I had mine.

[PsiRedEye22]

tldr wtf is this ****

[Danielvutran]

shut the hell up dude this is fcking too long to read jesus my eyes man MY EYES STOP THIS ****!!!!

[Narfle]

If you dont get it, then you dont get it. You dont get any other of my posts, so its not a surprise. Just post "TROLL" and go away.

[Danielvutran]

nO, It's not that I don't get it, it's that It's TOO LONG TO READ.

[Narfle]

Thread is already becoming an example of what it speaks about, excellent.

[whistle]

take three minutes and read it you eCripples
I'll just sit here and wait for an S2 response

[jay`t]

i love the replies to this thread.

if you are dumb like me and don't get what's going on right away, re-read.

honestly, discussion is probably impossible.

[Danielvutran]

edit: I don't think you realize what I'm trying to do either

[Drunkasaurus]

let me just add that when jager banned me, i asked him about it on irc in a frandly way and he just sneered at me and put me on ignore. such professionalism is astounding. jager if you were any more rude you'd put don rickles to shame.

[Narfle]

honestly, discussion is probably impossible.

I agree that its highly unlikely, but you dont get to the end zone if youre not running, and maybe we could get lucky and someone in charge would take notice and ask some people representative of this community to a debate, because they felt those people had an acceptable way of looking at the issues.

Basically, all im hoping for is some sort of non-shitfest dialogue. If all we do is complain when stuff we dont like happens, then they dont know what we want instead of whats currently here.

We had thread approval. We hated thread approval. Loads of whining was posted regarding thread approval, nothing changed. Then a couple people started giving reasonable alternatives, and thread approval was removed few days later. They arent fascist tyrants that ignore anything we say.

[jay`t]

I agree, but honestly,



tldr wtf is this ****

here's your debate. we're not self-policing enough to shut out people that post like this, and the moderators won't do it because why should they when the community doesn't care as a whole? thing is, you gotta pull the plug somewhere, and that's why coolmans and rss disappeared.

you can't really have a discussion here in OT or GB even without loads of tldr umad or recycled 4chan pictures. unfortunately, we reap what we sow.

i'm just as guilty as anyone, i guess.

[Danielvutran]

I agree, but honestly,



here's your debate. we're not self-policing enough to shut out people that post like this, and the moderators won't do it because why should they when the community doesn't care as a whole? thing is, you gotta pull the plug somewhere, and that's why coolmans and rss disappeared.

you can't really have a discussion here in OT or GB even without loads of tldr umad or recycled 4chan pictures. unfortunately, we reap what we sow.

i'm just as guilty as anyone, i guess.

There's a simple answer to this. Make an option that makes a note in a thread title "[Serious]". For instance,

"[Serious] Lock this thread"

Seriously, in OT if you are expecting most people to be serious and to carry on a "debate" then you're an idiot. Like, seriously. This is the internet, and these are forums. This is what forums do. The only option would be having an option to differentiate threads that people need to be serious in, and threads are you can just be whatever in.

I'm a huge forum whore, since I work odd hours, and I've seen far too many of these threads. People who feel like they need to do something to make a name for themselves, or a "change", for something of so little value, considering this is an online forum and in off-topic. If you want a debate, for instance in Religion, go visit other forums that specialize in this. Or debates in Politics or whatever you're interested in. Just keep in mind, you're on a heroes of newerth forum. Which is why I always think threads like these are stupid, yet I support them anyway by pulling off the parody effect. But really, these threads are stupid. There are much better forums for debates, that were made FOR debates and discussion about said topics.

To put it in perspective, it would be like asking to debate HoN mechanics on a Halo 3 board, and expecting nothing but serious answers. And getting mad when people mess around.

End rant.

[Drunkasaurus]

hey we're talking about a discussion on nazi mods and how they can be less fascist, not whining about trolls in a debate thread.

however thank you for your professional forum browsing input. it wil be noted.

[Danielvutran]

oh whoops didn't know his main focus was about nazi mods, he was targeting my other thread so I was assuming he wanted to fight me online.

yeah i hate nazi mods also.

i also hate it when people try too hard to be cool / intelligent , when it's obvious that they're trying way too hard

[kirbyruled]

Oh I get it. Wasn't hard to get.

[LolMaliken]

I said tl;dr first to, then read a random sentence in the middle and actually read the entire thing and i gotta say narfle never ceases to amaze me with lengthy thought out responces.

A reason why someone was banned would be very nice, perhaps a banlist somewhere that we can look at? im part of another online community that shows a banlist and a time, length and reason behind every ban. also perhaps a repeal process? that might be way to complicated for a community of this size though, and it would encompass the entire forum base which would be monstrous.

also i do believe OT can have serious thought out discussions as we often do but most of these are satirical in nature as they're making fun of a certain sect of people in whatever way.

on my last note cause i kinda cant think of much right now, is professionalism regarding the populace. the mod's the are here the most often, wingflier, nome, DTT, idejder; they're all pretty professional when they post and relinquish thoughts. I would assume we could acertain the same amount of opinion and respect when requesting information instead of being cast aside*. I expect a responce to this Narfle, maybe some input from you could spark my mind


*Jager events as a whole.

[Narfle]

loliken, umad?

I REALLY COULDNT HELP IT!

Anyway, about the mods that post often and such, i wouldnt actually use the word "professional" as much as i'd use the word "detached". Which is quite common, people with inflated authority often need to remain detached to keep their authority and thats perfectly fine. Personally i wouldnt care at all if Nome was constantly posting engrish and raging at smokers or something. He can post however he wants as long as his moderation is professional.

Theres nothing wrong with the whole detachment thing, im fairly certain its necessary, but what they have yet to realize is that the detachment is only necessary on a "personal level" rather than a "professional level". Almost all communities LOVE hearing from their people in charge about the details of whats going on. It makes them feel that their overlords care about them and keeping them updated, and that builds strong communities.

It should also be noted that you missed fatray, the one that doesnt really get detached (although i think the process has started), and that actually works against him. Just a hint that the personal detachment may be required.

Personally i just suggest they get an alter ego to post on when they want to goof out, it wont matter if the community is aware of who is behind the alter ego, because its obviously the alter ego doing the various stuff and its usually hard to blame others for what we do ourselves (and if anyone does, then i got yo back brah). Its often also normal to make the mod account the unknown alter ego, we did this on various UO freeshards.

A banlist isnt a bad idea as such, i dont know if its truly needed or we could just have a notification on the users forum profile when the user is banned and for how long. Then we can look up the ones we care about. I also think it would be easier to code this.

[LolMaliken]

ya, imad. imad because people who spam here or people who are inflammatory on purpose are left free but one or 2 people report a post cause "they feel like it" and coolmans gets banned. its bullshit imo.

also when i speak of professionalism i do it in the matter of actual responces. the names i mentioned dont post unless they have something they want to say? or feel something needs to be added. on the OTHER hand those i didnt mention seem to (acting word SEEM) post only when closing threads, and in that matter they also only post one liners or pictures. its assinine in my book but maybe im just a hardass about moderating.

i have been admin and mod for a number of communities but the largest number of people ive ever been over was about 85 so i dont have alotta experience with vast numbers of people, as such i wanna know more about how you modded more unruly and larger audiences. you never know, sometimes things come out that you wouldnt think to say while explaining a process that could trigger something in a blue or red's mind that could help us greatly.

also your idea for profile ban status would be alot better... and i dont know why people dont just banlist instead of reporting. i mean if they do something racist/demeaning/attack someone sure thats ban worthy but some spam? and not even really spam because it all has meaning isnt worthy of a ban imo. banlist the guy and be done with it.

[Well_Shebber]

OT is serious business? I might be alone on this one, but I read OT in the downtime between games or when waiting for games to start. I do not take OT seriously (and I don't think coolmans does either, based on his posts), so I could care less if people get banned for doing stupid sh*t, whether it's me or someone else. I like coolmans in general, but I can also see why he gets banned often; I have a few picture spam PMs from him myself. I think it's funny.

I think you guys should have a lighter attitude towards OT. If he gets banned, so what? If you get banned, so what? Laugh about with your buds and join another game of HoN.

[LolMaliken]

no no you read it wrong, i meant OT CAN be srs bzns. and that well thought out posts are generally.... etc. etc.

also i lurk way way WAY more than play hon

[Aracuan]

you lie molly

[LolMaliken]

i dont lie. and i know the truth. but i will tell NO ONE

[Aflacduck]

Lay my eggs Narfle.

[Hat_Truck]

In defense of the moderators, every member here knows (or should know) the rules of the forums.

Coolmans, though a hilarious guy, broke them time and time again; and had to know what was coming.

I'm a big fan of Natural Selection, since that's how we all got here in the first place. If you are too dumb to understand or adapt to "the system", you are going to be weeded out.

[Aflacduck]

In defense of the moderators, every member here knows (or should know) the rules of the forums.

Coolmans, though a hilarious guy, broke them time and time again; and had to know what was coming.

I'm a big fan of Natural Selection, since that's how we all got here in the first place. If you are too dumb to understand or adapt to "the system", you are going to be weeded out.

Natural selection means nothing when you have a mass of gazelle and tigers, the tigers being biased as to which gazelle they choose. I'm amazed I have yet to be banned, yet I only have two minor infractions.

[Narfle]

ya, imad. imad because people who spam here or people who are inflammatory on purpose are left free but one or 2 people report a post cause "they feel like it" and coolmans gets banned. its bullshit imo.

also when i speak of professionalism i do it in the matter of actual responces. the names i mentioned dont post unless they have something they want to say? or feel something needs to be added. on the OTHER hand those i didnt mention seem to (acting word SEEM) post only when closing threads, and in that matter they also only post one liners or pictures. its assinine in my book but maybe im just a hardass about moderating.

i have been admin and mod for a number of communities but the largest number of people ive ever been over was about 85 so i dont have alotta experience with vast numbers of people, as such i wanna know more about how you modded more unruly and larger audiences. you never know, sometimes things come out that you wouldnt think to say while explaining a process that could trigger something in a blue or red's mind that could help us greatly.

also your idea for profile ban status would be alot better... and i dont know why people dont just banlist instead of reporting. i mean if they do something racist/demeaning/attack someone sure thats ban worthy but some spam? and not even really spam because it all has meaning isnt worthy of a ban imo. banlist the guy and be done with it.

Yes, inconsistent moderation is a big no-no, but they dont seem that interested in that particular issue.

I'd be happy to chat with you about my foram admin experience with large unruly crowds, im online right now, baev just started a game. Or you could come on the ventrilo.

[LolMaliken]

neither is a good choice for me. seeing as how im at work the best i got right now is skype and these forums. also facebook if you have one which is a very good way to relay information quickly. ill be home soon, you should PM me your vent info nonetheless

[Drunkasaurus]

also me

[knallfrosch]

what is this i dont even

miss coolmans

[Narfle]

In defense of the moderators, every member here knows (or should know) the rules of the forums.

Coolmans, though a hilarious guy, broke them time and time again; and had to know what was coming.

I'm a big fan of Natural Selection, since that's how we all got here in the first place. If you are too dumb to understand or adapt to "the system", you are going to be weeded out.

Thats very true, and is one of the building blocks for what im trying to promote. More communication from the administration to the population, regarding enforcement.

But you also have to remember that the rules are quite vague, and they are almost entirely up to the eye that is beholding them. What i never intended to be malicious/deliberate/potential harmful/etc may be considered such by a tardface that have no ****ing clue what im talking about. And i know that some of the rules are intentionally vague, at least the one that Nome accepted my feedback on. But at least that one is what i would deem "acceptably vague" because it clearly states that its vague. Also this was the third time i clicked Arnejs spammy locked thread "HoN Rules" because i thought it was the rules. Lead by example?

And then theres the rules nobody cares about and thats never enforced anyway.

A user that isnt allowed to post temporarily would like this added:

"With partially unclear rules, an unacceptable situation may be allowed to run for way longer time than whats desirable and with the accumulated offenses made, an individual would end up being punished too harshly, just because the punishment were dealt at the end of events rather than at the beginning."

Words have been altered to protect the identity of this innocent kitten.

EDIT: By the name of babagk.

[Valk]

In defense of the moderators, every member here knows (or should know) the rules of the forums.

Coolmans, though a hilarious guy, broke them time and time again; and had to know what was coming.

I'm a big fan of Natural Selection, since that's how we all got here in the first place. If you are too dumb to understand or adapt to "the system", you are going to be weeded out.
LOL.

Moderators banning people is absolutely not natural selection, it is more akin to divine intervention.

Jesus christ what a joke. :|

[jay`t]

hey we're talking about a discussion on nazi mods and how they can be less fascist, not whining about trolls in a debate thread.

however thank you for your professional forum browsing input. it wil be noted.


That's the thing though, it's the community's general attitude that directs moderation. I'm personally amazed I haven't been banned for calling people out in the balance forums for not knowing their ass from a hole in the wall.

There are many web communities that do not have this problem at all due to community policing. The problem we are facing here is that the community is complacent on what people do.

Let me elaborate.

I post a picture of Mr. Bean sucking off an elephant in a random OT thread. OT members laugh and let it go.

Coolmans posts the same picture in GB. People report it and he goes byebye. It's really our own inconsistent self-policing that causes this 'moderation nazism'.

Edit: While a banlist would be nice, keep in mind that it might not be in the moderators' best interest to deal with such a thing. An open banlist is almost an invitation for mass appeals.

[Drunkasaurus]

i still have no idea why i'm banned. with all the flaming that goes around not just in OT, but the entire forum, i get banned for calling a narc a whiny douche; while in the meantime people who post FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT FAGGOT have no action taken against them. poor moderation calls for new moderation calls for a reversal of previous mod action.

[Narfle]

Edit: While a banlist would be nice, keep in mind that it might not be in the moderators' best interest to deal with such a thing. An open banlist is almost an invitation for mass appeals.

Popular suggestions meet Popular appeals, only appeals with 10+ supports gets taken seriously. Or something like that.

And as far as your "its our own fault", i agree partially, but i think of it in a different way. Lets say youre married, kids, house, that kinda deal.

Well its perfectly fine for you to have sex with your wife in your bedroom after the kids are fast asleep. And its not that cool to have sex in your kids room while they have friends over.

But if the rule is "NO SEX IN THE HOUSE", then no sex in the house.

The bean vs elephant pic went down fine here and got screamed about in GB. Well then i guess it need to be punished both places, because we are in the same house, just different rooms.

If something is unacceptable in HoN GB forums because its against the forums rules, then its also unacceptable in HoN OT forums, because theyre part of the same overall forum, which has those rules. Yes, we have some "OT Rules", but theyre not meant to replace the forums general rules, theyre meant to add on to it. We have MORE rules, not OTHER rules.

Fresh idea, bans from certain subforums? Someone did something in GB that werent acceptable although the same is acceptable in OT? Enjoy your GB ban, feel free to go nuts in OT (until you get bannd there).

Everyone wins!

(and yes, inconsistent moderation must never happen, and always will. Its an approximation that any moderation team must strive to perfect well knowing they never can. And we as users must forgive them when it happens, and rage against them when it happens too much.)

EDIT: Liv if youre not gonna calm down then im putting you back in the cage. The small cage this time. Bad girl! And yes, you are right, but still bad girl i should punish over and over and over and over and over again.

[Hat_Truck]

LOL.

Moderators banning people is absolutely not natural selection, it is more akin to divine intervention.

Jesus christ what a joke. :|
You can play stupid all you want, but Coolmans got a total of 23 infractions before he was finally banned.

I don't consider the rules in OT unreasonably strict, and it was generally when he went to other forums when he got the infractions (if not always).

You can say "divine intervention" all you want, but considering that people are part OF the nature process, I could argue that adapting to us, is just as much a part of natural selection as not slamming your head in a car door.

[kirbyruled]

You can play stupid all you want, but Coolmans got a total of 23 infractions before he was finally banned.

I don't consider the rules in OT unreasonably strict, and it was generally when he went to other forums when he got the infractions (if not always).

You can say "divine intervention" all you want, but considering that people are part OF the nature process, I could argue that adapting to us, is just as much a part of natural selection as not slamming your head in a car door.

lol he deserved it then, holy ****

The plot thickened.

[Narfle]

lol he deserved it then, holy ****

The plot thickened.

Communication.

Its useful when you want to convey a message.

[rss]

ya, imad. imad because people who spam here or people who are inflammatory on purpose are left free but one or 2 people report a post cause "they feel like it" and coolmans gets banned. its bullshit imo.

also when i speak of professionalism i do it in the matter of actual responces. the names i mentioned dont post unless they have something they want to say? or feel something needs to be added. on the OTHER hand those i didnt mention seem to (acting word SEEM) post only when closing threads, and in that matter they also only post one liners or pictures. its assinine in my book but maybe im just a hardass about moderating.

i have been admin and mod for a number of communities but the largest number of people ive ever been over was about 85 so i dont have alotta experience with vast numbers of people, as such i wanna know more about how you modded more unruly and larger audiences. you never know, sometimes things come out that you wouldnt think to say while explaining a process that could trigger something in a blue or red's mind that could help us greatly.

also your idea for profile ban status would be alot better... and i dont know why people dont just banlist instead of reporting. i mean if they do something racist/demeaning/attack someone sure thats ban worthy but some spam? and not even really spam because it all has meaning isnt worthy of a ban imo. banlist the guy and be done with it.


I've reported a number of posts. Coolmans, and what not for example.

But I agree.. they DO ignore certain people.. etc etc tl;dr

[RogerDodger]

My reaction to this thread makes me think the following should happen

Offensive posts that receive infractions are hidden and viewable if desired by anyone, similar to the ignore list except instead of "This post is hidden because xxx is on your ignore list" it would say "User was banned for this post"
Posts of phishing scams or any other dangerous content to stupid people should be deleted permanently, since people don't need to see that (as well as anyone posting them is not likely to have anybody care about them or where they've gone).
Infractions should be public on the public profile, and the offensive post be linked at each infraction listing. I don't see any reason they shouldn't be public.
Jager be removed as a mod:

This is not only because he is too trigger-happy with his ban hammer, I consistently see him locking strategy threads after giving something that he believes to be a black and white answer (even when it isn't you're not the font of all knowledge Jager).
He fails to give legitimate reasons for most of the infractions he deals.


However this isn't to say I don't respect the mods for the hard (not really) work they do for this forum.

[Sharok]

tldr cba to read

[Poni]

I agree on this 100%
Very well said I don't think anyone could have said it better
I like the alternative moderation tools they could benefit these forums alot

[Drunkasaurus]

after speaking with Jager again today on irc, he has proven his inability to be impartial in addition to being extremely rude and unprofessional. after repeated issues with this moderator, not just from me but from many other forum users as well, i call for an immediate removal of his moderator status, and i also urge a higher ranking moderator to meticulously review all of Jager's recent decisions. in the eyes of many he is an unfit moderator and i hope the S2 staff will choose someone more competent in the future.

[20:16] * Jager (chatzilla@chattingaway-7BE65D96.callplus.net.nz) has joined #hon
[20:16] * HoNBot sets mode: +v Jager
[20:16] <Livskis> hello frand Jager!
[20:17] <Livskis> perhaps we can discuss this unjustified infraction you have given me!
[20:18] <+Jager> o yawn u again
[20:18] <+Jager> have u got nothing better to do
[20:18] <Livskis> frand Jager, perhaps we can discuss the unwarranted and unjustified infraction you have given me!
[20:19] <Livskis> i feel it is your duty to explain yourself!
[20:19] <+Jager> yawn sic of listening to your bad fanfic
[20:19] <+Jager> ignored

[Poni]

This is an outrage.

Actions must be taken





I like the way you said frand

[piesnatcher]

I got banned by S2 employee actually, for 'taking things too far' - before that i got a shorter ban by Jager.

All i did was post a picture about the guy getting lynched after reporting Coolmans.

I mean, i don't care much about the ban and yea i most likely deserved it. But people should give a little more of a slack to OT threads, it's not like we're trying to ruin something here, if you'd ban all the daily OT posters, you'd just end up with the GB whiners.

[Poni]

Nobody wants GB whiners

[H1pster]

Obliged.