PDA

View Full Version : Nullifying blade & Malphas



SkyneT
08-16-2009, 12:46 PM
Diffusal blade was a huge part of countering Warlock in dota.

Please make it able to purge malphas pl0x. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

MechE_
08-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Doubt they're going to do this. Yes, it was a big part of countering Warlock, but it was overpowered. I think what would work better is to nerf Malphas stats a bit, or nerf the rest of Hellbringer's skills just a bit to compensate. As it is right now, Hellbringer is picked or banned in 90% of clan war games - primarily because of his ultimate.

Durrett
08-16-2009, 12:54 PM
well the purge only has soo many charges and the the stun is what i mostly use his ulti for anyway.

and how many charges does it have 5 or 10 i forget but with refresher on Hellbringer/warlock 5-10 charges is nothing only 2.5-5 cast of the ulti with refresher.

then if they wanna do it again any more they need to pony up the cash for diffusal

MechE_
08-16-2009, 01:00 PM
well the purge only has soo many charges and the the stun is what i mostly use his ulti for anyway.

and how many charges does it have 5 or 10 i forget but with refresher on Hellbringer/warlock 5-10 charges is nothing only 2.5-5 cast of the ulti with refresher.

then if they wanna do it again any more they need to pony up the cash for diffusal

It has 10 charges. That's enough to take Malphas out of the game for about 20 minutes against a Hellbringer without a refresher - and you can usually get a Nullfire blade about 20 minutes before he gets a refresher. Not to mention that you get 50/100/150 gold each time you kill Malphas - that's probably about 1,000 gold that your carry is going to get just for being in a team battle and purging Malphas. Sure, there is still the slight stun - what, 1 second? That is HARDLY worth an ultimate itself.

I personally feel that Hellbringer is a bit stronger than the rest of the heroes, and I could see a bit of a nerf coming his way, but I think Nullfire purging Malphas away is a bit too hard of a nerf, it would make him very underpowered.

Durrett
08-16-2009, 01:13 PM
if you farm well you can get a refresher in dota by lvl 11 if you rush straight to it. most likely if he has a diffusal which he prolly wont since he wants to get his other starting items first you should be good for a few minutes.

but to support this you need to go shadow word pain then stats then ulti then stats so you have the mana to do it all. so it does limit you a bit and a 1 second stun means all the world in a group battle. magnus might not get his ulti off tempest blackhole might get inturrupted same with deathward.

it can mean allot like much in this game its about timing.

SkyneT
08-16-2009, 02:33 PM
It's a basic strategy of dota. And HoN = dota regardless of how you look at it.
plus hellbringer is imbalanced anyway. im sure it wont hurt to make malphas killable by one charge of nullify.

Idejder
08-16-2009, 02:37 PM
Do you remember how much life Malphas has (at the different levels)?

Summons Malphas. Malphas has 900 / 1200 / 1500 Health

I figured that a Nullfire charge would/should take away like 2/3 of his life in one blast.

Techies
08-16-2009, 02:43 PM
Nah nullfire one shot kill would be gay. A very cheap counter...

Feroc1ty
08-16-2009, 03:21 PM
Cheap counter? It's quite expensive for a single spell, 3.25k for 10 malphases.

SkyneT
08-16-2009, 03:34 PM
All these ppl who havent played dota just hurt my brain zzzzzzzzzz

Ales1
08-16-2009, 03:34 PM
or you can simply make it do a set amount of damage, like 600 to summoned units like most things did in dota

Euphoria
08-16-2009, 03:44 PM
Malphas is hurt by just about everything else. Casks stun him for 5 seconds, etc. I really have never seen anyone bother with hellbringer in IH games or even decent games. Sure you have an ulti and the magic debuff, but he can't babysit and his animation sucks. Much better gankers considering the huge animation on his ultimate and lack of damage.

KARTlK
08-16-2009, 03:46 PM
What summons can you purge in Dota? Is it worth kill tempest's summons with electrician's ult? Sorry for the hijacking.

mugthol
08-16-2009, 04:39 PM
Hellbringer would still be overpowered if you got rid of his ult.

The +Heal off of creeps, and his incredibly long slow+high dmg dot are simply amazing.

MechE_
08-16-2009, 04:56 PM
I really have never seen anyone bother with hellbringer in IH games or even decent games.


As it is right now, Hellbringer is picked or banned in 90% of clan war games - primarily because of his ultimate.
Don't mean to quote myself, but... This.

If you disagree, then who are you playing? I want to go stomp that team a couple times.

weeD`SuFFo
08-16-2009, 05:15 PM
I figured that a Nullfire charge would/should take away like 2/3 of his life in one blast.

This is the most reasonable suggestion so far, i think that hellbringer is really strong, but killing malphas with 1 charge of difusal isn't the kind of nerf that he needs, that's just too overpowered when u have 10 charges. I guess that's like 1500 gold if u eat a malphas with every charge, right? t_T

Shugo_akakak
08-16-2009, 05:30 PM
If Hellbringer needs nerfed, it's his AOE life void skill. Either make it absorb only 25% of damage or keep the 50% but single-target. Even with only 2 levels in it, he has nearly-constant regen during creep waves.

Revolution3
08-16-2009, 05:37 PM
All these ppl who havent played dota just hurt my brain zzzzzzzzzz
it baffles me that people want to keep all of dota's flaws aswell

SkyneT
08-16-2009, 05:52 PM
it baffles me that people want to keep all of dota's flaws aswell


it wasnt a flaw.... it was part of the game structuring.

DemonStar
08-16-2009, 05:56 PM
If Medusa gets ported then her ultimate would suck.

Lyte
08-16-2009, 05:57 PM
Malphas is hurt by just about everything else. Casks stun him for 5 seconds, etc. I really have never seen anyone bother with hellbringer in IH games or even decent games. Sure you have an ulti and the magic debuff, but he can't babysit and his animation sucks. Much better gankers considering the huge animation on his ultimate and lack of damage.

No offense but I've seen Hellbringer in a vast majority of bans and scrims. Not sure who you are playing..

Revolution3
08-16-2009, 05:58 PM
i understand that logically, being magic, nullfire should destroy his ult, i still maintain that it's a bad idea - balance wise. You can purge omni's ult, but his also recharges much much quicker - Though at the same time he is still op even without his ult

Mordiggian
08-16-2009, 06:04 PM
If Medusa gets ported then her ultimate would suck.

Um, electrician?

BleBla
08-16-2009, 06:08 PM
If Medusa gets ported then her ultimate would suck.
medusa is a kinda ported, electrician is very similar to it. Mana shield and purge.

Mardius
08-16-2009, 06:22 PM
If Medusa gets ported then her ultimate would suck.

Lol whats her ult have to do with anything in this thread?

edxs
08-16-2009, 06:57 PM
or you can simply make it do a set amount of damage, like 600 to summoned units like most things did in dota

This is how it should work. Destroy crappy summons and seriously hurt (but not kill) the big beefy ones.

Drasha
08-16-2009, 07:03 PM
Its already one of the best items in the game for a agi carry why does it need a buff?

because it was that way in dota is not a valid argument.

Khaos`
08-16-2009, 08:00 PM
If they're not going to make Nullfire Blade do anything besides slow, they should at least remove the charges from it, or make it more useful in another manner.

SuperStanos
08-16-2009, 08:33 PM
You mean like remove your debuffs or other people's buffs/debuffs?

RHS
08-16-2009, 08:41 PM
I really have never seen anyone bother with hellbringer in IH games or even decent games.
WHAT? Do you play in IH games or even decent games? He is either picked or banned, period.

Purge killed Warlock's ultimate in DotA and nobody complained. What makes everybody here opposed to this smarter than years of DotA changes, updates, balances, and tweaks, and smarter than their entire community? Nullfire blade is a VERY expensive counter... let alone it just being for ONE spell.

willtsay
08-16-2009, 10:31 PM
+1 to pwning all summons >=D

Drasha
08-16-2009, 11:43 PM
WHAT? Do you play in IH games or even decent games? He is either picked or banned, period.

Purge killed Warlock's ultimate in DotA and nobody complained. What makes everybody here opposed to this smarter than years of DotA changes, updates, balances, and tweaks, and smarter than their entire community? Nullfire blade is a VERY expensive counter... let alone it just being for ONE spell.

Because it was that way in dota is not a valid argument. Nullfire blade is a cheap counter you get around 100 gold for killing a malphas and you have 10 charges so if you use each charge to kill a malphas you just got 1000 gold of a 3300 gold item. You also removed the hellbringers ult from the game for a total of 27 minutes if he used it each time it was of cooldown. Letting a nullfire blade kill malphas is crazy over powered.

SyyRaaaN
08-17-2009, 12:15 AM
Malphas needs the Purge counter, its obvious. Make it instant gib summons.

Drasha
08-17-2009, 12:38 AM
Malphas needs the Purge counter, its obvious. Make it instant gib summons.

why is it obvious?

Sai
08-17-2009, 12:47 AM
New dusa is SICK, Demon. :P

Also, yes, honestly, Warlock with refresher honestly DOMINATES if you can't purge one of his ults...let alone both.

Even if you add this, once he gets a refresher he still gets his second one out for a while, and that's IF they don't kill the hero with the purgeblade before the ult is used.

Needs to be added or hellbringer nerfed.

Drasha
08-17-2009, 12:59 AM
New dusa is SICK, Demon. :P

Also, yes, honestly, Warlock with refresher honestly DOMINATES if you can't purge one of his ults...let alone both.

Even if you add this, once he gets a refresher he still gets his second one out for a while, and that's IF they don't kill the hero with the purgeblade before the ult is used.

Needs to be added or hellbringer nerfed.

Almost every hero can do crazy things with a refresher orb and the malphas is not that much of a threat just focus fire him or ignore him.

saboya
08-17-2009, 01:31 AM
Because it was that way in dota is not a valid argument.
How is that not a valid argument for a game that is a copy of dota?

Drasha
08-17-2009, 01:35 AM
How is that not a valid argument for a game that is a copy of dota?

Look at orb effects they now stack its not that way in dota but its an intended part of the game. There are a lot fewer heros in HoN and they are different you can't just take bits of balance from one game and have it to work in the other.

BotD
08-17-2009, 03:15 AM
Nullfire also has OTHER purposes.
If you're getting that item for your build solely to counter malphas, then you deserve to counter him.
Chances are though, some charges will be used in chases or to clear debuffs.
So not EVERY charge = dead malphas.
If you REALLY need that maphas to live, kill the guy carrying the purge blade.
Life is SO simple when you don't complicate it.

Drasha
08-17-2009, 03:26 AM
Nullfire also has OTHER purposes.
If you're getting that item for your build solely to counter malphas, then you deserve to counter him.
Chances are though, some charges will be used in chases or to clear debuffs.
So not EVERY charge = dead malphas.
If you REALLY need that maphas to live, kill the guy carrying the purge blade.
Life is SO simple when you don't complicate it.

Nullfire blade is meant to give you mana combustion and more damage the on use effect is a bonus if all the item did was dispel then i would agree it should counter malphas but it already has a vary strong use and does not need to be more powerful for no reason at all.

SkyneT
08-17-2009, 08:36 AM
As I said before, people who have never played dota just make my brain hurt.

Nedrapter
08-17-2009, 10:21 AM
Warlock (aka Hellbringer) exists in Dota for long time now. He is picked in many competitive games for his good support in lane control and his superior ultimate the Infernal. That Ultimate is a very long range stun, almost instant (very low probability of interruption), with a huge aoe and spawning a summoned unit for the Warlock. This summoned unit is quite valuable in early-mid lvl, but not that tough in late game. Getting a Refresher Orb as fast as possible maximized the winning chances for Warlock's team.

Diffusal blade is also one of the oldest items in Dota and was oftenly used after Warlock entered the Scourge team. With 8 charges it could save his allies of 8 Infernals but not from their stuns too. Now upgraded it can have maximum 16 charges.

As a fact 16 charges are too imbalanced against a warlock.
On the other hand 8 can be balanced. Diffusal blade is an item that is quite hard to get it early. All it's components dont help much with your surviveability on your lane and it's recipe it's not cheap. Taking as granted that the player who has the Warlock and the player who will get the Diffusal Blade are equally skilled, Refresher orb will come about 5-10 min after Diffusal blade is completed.

With a refresher orb these 2 stuns of 1 second each are vastly important to warlock's team (someone above said they are useless) as they can interrupt twice almost all of the enemies spells(it has so huge aoe that is hard to miss someone), can give your allies a breath out of any negative effects they have on, or even let them prepare their spells, get a better battle position etc. So even if they infernals dies immediately after they land (from a Diffusal Blade) his ultimate still rocks with a Refresher.

So far, i haven't heard anyone complaining on how Infernal and Diffusal blade worked in Dota and none of them was changed until now. The difference with what you say in this thread is that they (Icefrog's Team) pumped up Diffusal Blade instead of keeping it nerfed (as many ppl suggest here).

Drasha
08-17-2009, 07:22 PM
I still don't see why any thing should be changed its not like hellbringer is overpowered.

saboya
08-17-2009, 07:26 PM
I still don't see why any thing should be changed its not like hellbringer is overpowered.
Have you tried soloing against him? He's ridiculous.

GnarlyGoat
08-18-2009, 12:27 AM
As I said before, people who have never played dota just make my brain hurt.

People who haven't played Savage 2 before are making my brain hurt. I was just harmlessy reading through the forums when BAMN:


I think what would work better is to nerf Malphas stats a bit

For those of you who haven't played Savage 2, if you can spawn as Malphas, its pretty much game over for the other team. In Savage 2, the Malphas is a huge tank that deals *****-loads of damage and even new players can wrack up 15-20 kills very easily. As a result of this, many people have posted numerous "Malphas is OP" threads and the issue has been discussed ad-nauseam. Most of the Savage 2 community regards such threads the same way we regard a new "OMG backdooring suxxors" thread, which is usually along the lines of "oh god no, here we go again..."

I don't think they should nerf the Malph, he was OP in Savage 2, therefore he should be strong in HoN. S2games needs to consider the opinions of their already existing fanbase, and not just the Dota players.

Speaking of which, everybody should stop reading these forums right now and play a game of Savage 2, its free and awesome, what are you waiting for?

Drasha
08-18-2009, 01:55 AM
Have you tried soloing against him? He's ridiculous.

Yes it is ridiculous its like he is made of paper thats how fast he dies.

Eserem
08-18-2009, 09:17 AM
...
For those of you who haven't played Savage 2, if you can spawn as Malphas, its pretty much game over for the other team. In Savage 2, the Malphas is a huge tank that deals *****-loads of damage and even new players can wrack up 15-20 kills very easily. As a result of this, many people have posted numerous "Malphas is OP" threads and the issue has been discussed ad-nauseam. Most of the Savage 2 community regards such threads the same way we regard a new "OMG backdooring suxxors" thread, which is usually along the lines of "oh god no, here we go again..."

I don't think they should nerf the Malph, he was OP in Savage 2, therefore he should be strong in HoN. S2games needs to consider the opinions of their already existing fanbase, and not just the Dota players.
...


Sorry, but role playing has to come in second hand here. Balance is much more important.

Rawrapillar
08-18-2009, 10:02 AM
Hellbringer is a pretty tough hero. If hes well played he can survive pretty well. If you throw a gank at him and hes solo though, there isnt much healing he can receive while being disabled and smashed, even if the creeps have the heal on them. Some heroes are just not balanced in some aspects. If you tried going head to head with him though he can completely heal himself up just from creep damage over time at a small expense. He requires fast focus, if you do it at the wrong time, he serves as great bait. But malphas isnt that strong. The extra damage is pretty nice in a team fight, or the ability to focus a tower with him in a close fight push. But theres many other ults with stronger pushing power.

The best part of the ult is the initial stun. Diffusal blade wont change anything there. Even lowering the stun to .5 or something wouldn't change much, its mostly used as a counter-ult to break into serious fights. The ability to counter channeling ults is very nice until the enemy has picked up a BKB. At this point, you can use your ult for a breif stun only and then have a malphas that by itself will die in like 10seconds to the enemy carry. All in all, I dont think diffusal instagibbing malphas would solve anything. I was suprised to hear purge didnt do any summon damage, and itd be nice if it did do like 500-600 or a % of HP. It would be real stupid if it instantly killed a malphas though. Beyond their ult and AOE debuff(+self heal), they have an entangle that lasts shorter than most slows, and a DOT that serves as nothing more than counter-regen beyond mid game. Hellbringer is a great addition to any team for sure, but I think things are fine the way they are(minus the suggestion of purge hitting summons for a fractional amount.. :]) In other words, no, this isnt the answer. Purge is annoying enough already.

saboya
08-18-2009, 11:52 AM
I don't think they should nerf the Malph, he was OP in Savage 2, therefore he should be strong in HoN. S2games needs to consider the opinions of their already existing fanbase, and not just the Dota players.
I don't think they're discrediting opinions based on what games people played, but on the relevance and quality of the suggestion. Saying that Hellbringer's summon should be OP because he was OP in Savage 2 is a stupid reason to make a game unbalanced.

Squirtle
08-18-2009, 01:31 PM
Warlock (aka Hellbringer) exists in Dota for long time now. He is picked in many competitive games for his good support in lane control and his superior ultimate the Infernal. That Ultimate is a very long range stun, almost instant (very low probability of interruption), with a huge aoe and spawning a summoned unit for the Warlock. This summoned unit is quite valuable in early-mid lvl, but not that tough in late game. Getting a Refresher Orb as fast as possible maximized the winning chances for Warlock's team.

Diffusal blade is also one of the oldest items in Dota and was oftenly used after Warlock entered the Scourge team. With 8 charges it could save his allies of 8 Infernals but not from their stuns too. Now upgraded it can have maximum 16 charges.

As a fact 16 charges are too imbalanced against a warlock.
On the other hand 8 can be balanced. Diffusal blade is an item that is quite hard to get it early. All it's components dont help much with your surviveability on your lane and it's recipe it's not cheap. Taking as granted that the player who has the Warlock and the player who will get the Diffusal Blade are equally skilled, Refresher orb will come about 5-10 min after Diffusal blade is completed.

With a refresher orb these 2 stuns of 1 second each are vastly important to warlock's team (someone above said they are useless) as they can interrupt twice almost all of the enemies spells(it has so huge aoe that is hard to miss someone), can give your allies a breath out of any negative effects they have on, or even let them prepare their spells, get a better battle position etc. So even if they infernals dies immediately after they land (from a Diffusal Blade) his ultimate still rocks with a Refresher.

So far, i haven't heard anyone complaining on how Infernal and Diffusal blade worked in Dota and none of them was changed until now. The difference with what you say in this thread is that they (Icefrog's Team) pumped up Diffusal Blade instead of keeping it nerfed (as many ppl suggest here).
This pretty sums up the problem. The Screen-sized aoe stun is what warlock is picked for, not the infernal, and getting refresher makes you have 2 of these stuns. The infernal added in is just a nuisance but can still deal a lot of damage on top of the fact you can get 2 of them. Purge really needs to kill them in 1 shot, every good warlock player will get refresher and you can only destroy one of them in the duration of a team fight, by the time the cooldown is back up to kill the second one the fight will be over.

This is of course ignoring the fact that Hellbringer has better abilities aside from his ultimate, making him a lot better than warlock to begin with.

Lethe
08-18-2009, 02:53 PM
Yes it is ridiculous its like he is made of paper thats how fast he dies.

ROFL

akitoes
08-22-2009, 05:53 AM
[QUOTE=Drasha;152698]I still don't see why any thing should be changed its not like hellbringer is overpowered.
http://www.noelshack.com/up/aaa/disappoint-56a5e2f975.JPG

mulk
08-22-2009, 11:12 AM
so next you can 1hitko the bear as well oO

Drasha
08-22-2009, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE]
http://www.noelshack.com/up/aaa/disappoint-56a5e2f975.JPG

I know what you mean i am disappointed with this thread as well its like no one thinks they just go if it was in dota its perfect and has to be 100% the same way in HoN.

rpg711
08-23-2009, 10:18 AM
What summons can you purge in Dota? Is it worth kill tempest's summons with electrician's ult? Sorry for the hijacking.
Urm... you can purge any, and ALL summons in dota. The skill PURGE did a certain amount of damage per level, whereas the item PURGE(diffusal) instantly killed, or did 9,999,999 dmg.

ElementUser
08-23-2009, 10:28 AM
Except creeps controlled by Chen via Holy Persuasion and Spirit Bear (since they don't have a timed life)

Tyrant
08-23-2009, 11:14 AM
Yes it is ridiculous its like he is made of paper thats how fast he dies.

You better be trolling.

Trilles
08-26-2009, 10:56 PM
ROFL

ROFLē