To everyone who thinks Kraken is balanced, do you think Magmus is fair?

[Aristobulus]

Over the past few Kraken threads I've seen a lot of people say that Kraken - especially his ult - are balanced because of how good it can be in the right situations, that it COULD theoretically cause a team wipe if you had a team ready for it and the entire other team was bunched up and was slower to use any skills once being teleported than the Kraken's team is.

The point of this thread though, above the other Kraken threads, is the comparison to Magmus. I'm aware and not - in this thread - discussing whether or not Kraken is, alone and in a void, balanced, underpowered, or overpowered.

That said, about Magmus. It seems to me that Magmus can do everything Kraken can do, except better. The only thing he can't do is drench, but everything else Kraken does, Magmus seems to do better. Compare Magmus's charge to Kraken's charge, and the main point of this thread...compare Magmus's ult to Kraken's ult.

Magmus's ult seems to be extremely similar to Kraken's ult, except so, so, SO much easier to pull off, AND more rewarding every single time, except for the special occasions where it is *exactly as rewarding* as Kraken's ult.

Because here is the thing, for Kraken's ult to result in anyone's death, especially multiple opponents, he needs a teammate willing and able to to wait at the end of his whirlpool, and he needs the opponents bunched up, and he needs to be able to get to them in 6 seconds without getting stunned/killed/etc.

Magmus needs the same thing, except he does not have nearly the difficult Kraken does, because he can charge in, stun everyone, and activate his ult, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Once he does this, it is overall as devastating as Kraken's ult going off with a well prepared team would be, because of the sheer amount of damage his ult does.

So, I may not have been very clear, but the issue to me is that Magmus's ult is essentially a perfectly timed and situational Kraken's ult, and even if Magmus is caught alone, it is just that devastating on the people who caught him - because he can just stun and pull it off - whereas a Kraken caught alone can't use his ult for anything.

So I ask, IF you think Kraken is perfectly fine and balanced and not in need of a buff, how is it that you can in the same breath tell me Magmus is not in need of a nerf?

[Nidhogg]

Wanna know whats more tragic? Magmus' orb effect owns Kraken's in every possible way. Kraken would be a beast if he had a guaranteed way to splash instead of RNG.

[Travakh]

Magmus's ult does a static amount of damage and does not reposition the enemy.

Kraken's ult damages based on how well your team can teambattle and position themselves. In addition Kraken doesn't expose himself to getting killed if he can pull off the critical job of splitting up the enemy team with his whirlpool.

Though I agree Kraken as it stands is an inferior pick to Magmus in most situations.

[willtsay]

kraken needs is a tsunami charge buff so that it scales like waveform, his ult needs some mana reworking so that it costs as much or a little less than ravage. Drench is fine EXCEPT that its not instant, stupid projectile has to fly through the air.
And splash should be changed to kraken :)
kraken seems to be always in a dire need of mana, almost drove me to grab shiva xP

i manage to stop his(magmus) ult as pest ;P i have like .3-.5 window of time, provided i dont get stunned. the burrowstrike timing is a little off i think.

if you cant catch at least 3 of their heroes with krakens ult then.... well something is wrong

6-5-4 second wait is kinda stupid tho, i think you should be able to choose when to port back to the original whirlpool, BUT, when activated whirlpool will only last say. 2-3-4 seconds :P

[Aristobulus]

Magmus's ult does a static amount of damage and does not reposition the enemy.

Kraken's ult damages based on how well your team can teambattle and position themselves. In addition Kraken doesn't expose himself to getting killed if he can pull off the critical job of splitting up the enemy team with his whirlpool.

Though I agree Kraken as it stands is an inferior pick to Magmus in most situations.

True, Magmus's ult doesn't reposition the enemy, but it doesn't need to. It can achieve the exact same thing Kraken's ult could - a genocide, just as easily.

This is because of the stun. It goes like this, with Kraken, he activates whirlpool, charges in, teleports people back to his waiting team, who activate their ults.

With Magmus, he charges in, stuns, and his team rushes in to the now stunned and helpless opposing team and activates ults. Magmus gets to activate his ult as well.

You don't NEED repositioning, you see? The goal is to kill the opposing team, not shuffle them around, and Magmus does it better. Consider also that because of the stun, Magmus and his team can activate their abilities with little worries, whereas even if the Kraken pulls off his whirlpool and teleports some or all of the opposing team, it can STILL not work if one of the opposing team members is really quick on activating one of HIS abilities, and the Kraken could end up wiping his team by pulling off his ult, even though his team was ready for it and it was perfectly situational in his favor.

Magmus again, has no such worries because of the stun.

[Travakh]

True, Magmus's ult doesn't reposition the enemy, but it doesn't need to. It can achieve the exact same thing Kraken's ult could - a genocide, just as easily.

This is because of the stun. It goes like this, with Kraken, he activates whirlpool, charges in, teleports people back to his waiting team, who activate their ults.

With Magmus, he charges in, stuns, and his team rushes in to the now stunned and helpless opposing team and activates ults. Magmus gets to activate his ult as well.

You don't NEED repositioning, you see? The goal is to kill the opposing team, not shuffle them around, and Magmus does it better. Consider also that because of the stun, Magmus and his team can activate their abilities with little worries, whereas even if the Kraken pulls off his whirlpool and teleports some or all of the opposing team, it can STILL not work if one of the opposing team members is really quick on activating one of HIS abilities, and the Kraken could end up wiping his team by pulling off his ult, even though his team was ready for it and it was perfectly situational in his favor.

Magmus again, has no such worries because of the stun.

I understand your points, but 1. kraken has no positional worries with proper use of a blinker, and 2. magmus ult does not scale. Magmus ult is near useless past the 35th minute. Kraken's ult becomes much stronger past that point because its power scales with team damage.

At the moment Kraken has a superior <6 game and a superior >16 lategame. Magmus is a top tier mid-game hero, and the current meta ends games at midgame. Kraken is a victim of the meta, that's all.

[Aristobulus]

I understand your points, but 1. kraken has no positional worries with proper use of a blinker, and 2. magmus ult does not scale. Magmus ult is near useless past the 35th minute. Kraken's ult becomes much stronger past that point because its power scales with team damage.

At the moment Kraken has a superior <6 game and a superior >16 lategame. Magmus is a top tier mid-game hero, and the current meta ends games at midgame. Kraken is a victim of the meta, that's all.

How does Magmus' ult not scale, if you say that Kraken's does? I understand that the damage may become negligible, but just like Kraken, he can set up a few - all of the opposing team to get killed by his team.

Kraken's ults damage is never something to worry about, whereas Magmus's is, and then eventually becomes something you don't worry about. Both Kraken and Magmus can set up the opposing team to get killed by their own team, except Magmus can do it easier and more reliably.

I just don't understand in what way Magmus is ever inferior to Kraken, since if Magmus has a ready team, they will just rush in as he stuns and pull off their ults, same as if Kraken had teleported the enemy to them. This does not change no matter what part of the game it is.

Also, clarify for me how Kraken has a better early game? Steam Bath seems to be a good way to harass and keep heroes from getting last hits and denies, what can Kraken do to compare? He can drench to try to set up a gank, but if Kraken could set up a gank with drench, Magmus could set up the *same* gank with his charge move. If you mean something else, I do not understand, which is why I am asking you to explain that to me.

[krucifix]

How on earth does Steam Bath stop heroes from last hitting/denying? All it does is push the lane (that's a bad thing). Nothing stops the enemy hero from standing OUT of Steam Bath, then walking in for every single last hit/deny.

He explained how Kraken's ult scales. It repositions the enemy. If you pull two enemies to the back of the fight (where your allies are waiting) then Kraken's ulti's "effective damage" is the damage the rest of your team deals to those 2 people. Magmus' ulti offers nothing like that.

Not saying Kraken's perfectly fine, (i'd like a snare on his ulti) but they're the points raised so far. :)

Also Aristo, you're saying that Magmus' "cc" (a single line stun) is equivalent the pull of Kraken's. That's absurd. Are you going to tell us that every single hero with a single line stun (not many in HoN atm, but there will be) has that amount of CC ? That's silly talk.

willtsay, I like your idea there. It does need to emulate how "X Marks the Spot" works. Starting off as a 3 sec timer, then 4.5, then 6, with another spell (or cast the ulti again) used to pull you back prematurely, is a much better way to go.