Pebbles' Combo Sequence: The Mystery Unraveled

[ElementUser]

(Disclaimer: Only considers the damage from Stalagmites and Chuck and not other external factors (such as additional autoattacks).)

The real reason why Stalagmites -> Chuck is better than Chuck -> Stalagmites.

As you know, Stalagmites' stun/damage instance impacts every 0.25s & it impacts 4 times, meaning that the total timeframe to get all 4 Stalagmite stun/damage instances in is 1 second. However, there is a 0.2s delay before the first Stalagmite instance actually impacts once the projectile Stalagmites actually reaches its destination.

Chuck -> Stalagmites Analysis:

From the script, Pebbles' Chuck projectile has a lifetime of 1 second. Now you may be thinking "Well, how on earth is it actually possible to get Chuck's projectile time to include all 4 Stalagmite instances if Chuck is cast before Stalagmites?".

The answer is in HoN's engine because it runs at 20 frames/second or 0.05 seconds/frame.

Thus, if Stalagmites impacts the enemy in less than 0.05 seconds after Chuck is cast, then Chuck will include all 4 Stalagmite instances. Note that Stalagmites does have a tiny bit of travel time and 0.05 seconds is a very small timeframe, so Stalagmites will literally have to be casted right on top of Pebbles to ensure that it impacts faster than 0.05 seconds.

For curiosity's sake, Stalagmites' travel time must be less than 0.05 seconds & projectile speed is 1200 units/second. As we know, distance = velocity*time, so the minimum distance is 1200*0.05 = 60. Therefore, the center of the Stalagmites spell must be less than 60 units away from the center of Pebbles.

This can potentially be more easily demonstrated in a time line (assuming perfect scenario and that Stalagmites travel less than 60 units from the center of Pebbles):


Chuck at t=0

Stalagmites cast at t=0
Stalagmites impact at t=0.2

Instance #1 impacts at t=0.2
Instance #2 impacts at t=0.45
Instance #3 impacts at t=0.70
Instance #4 impacts at t=0.95

Since Chuck's projectile lifetime is 1 second, there is a 0.05s grace delay in between the Chuck cast and the Stalagmites cast. This grace delay is lessened the further away the Stalagmites has to travel, where 60 units is the max distance it can travel.

Realistcally, you cannot pull this off unless you cast both spells on the same frame, which is only possible by slowing the game speed below 25% (if you are human). If you are using computer-aids, that doesn't count.


Stalagmites -> Chuck Analysis:

The timeline info is the same, the only difference is that the grace period with Stalagmites -> Chuck is much larger: 0.25 seconds (including the HoN frames behavior), to be precise.


TL;DR: Stalagmites -> Chuck. Bottom line, Stalagmites -> Chuck gives you a much larger grace period to execute the combo for maximum damage.

[ElementUser]

Level 8 Combo Possiblities - Brief Analysis:

Level 8 Pebbles, assuming perfect Stun-Chuck combo executed.

http://i.imgur.com/mYiz6.png

Therefore, the 4/4/0/0 build is much better than the 3/4/0/1 build. See the next post for the elaboration on the creation of the graph.

Oudated stuff (archived):

Also does not take damage reductions into account (damage from autoattacks are assumed to be physical while the rest of the damage is magic).

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/7683/honpebbleslevel8.jpg

So, 3-4-1 build will give more overall damage.

In fact, 3-4-1 would *usually* be better because in general, Pebbles deals more physical damage in this build compared to the 4-4-0 build and the general trend is that heroes have lower physical armor than magic armor early game.

*Note that this is not always true depending on if the enemy hero has a boost in early physical armor (ie, Ring of the Teacher aura) and/or a boost in Magic Armor (ie, Mystic Vestments).

The 3rd column is there for the sake of comparison on the damage difference compared to the other 2.

Some info about autoattacking:


You can do Stalagmites -> Hit -> Chuck because you have a 0.45s grace time (0.2s from the impact delay, 0.25s after the first Stalagmite hits because Stalagmite applies a state to the enemy for 0.25s). However, Pebbles' attack point is 0.4s and the 0.45s grace time will usually be quite a bit lower (something like ~0.25s accounting for a lot of things like server delay, distance from the enemy, reflexes, Pebbles' ultimate lowering his attack point indirectly, imperfect conditions, etc.), so I highly recommend you just do Stalagmites -> Chuck -> Immediately Animation Cancel here to land an extra hit on the enemy.

[MacroHard]

LEVEL 8 PEBBLES OPTIMIZATION

(scroll to bottom conclusion for TL/DR)

HYPOTHESIS:
It is sometimes better to learn 3/4/0/1 than 4/4/0/0 at level 8.

ASSUMPTIONS/GIVENS:
-Pebbles is level 8
-Stalagmites (ie "Stun") does 100/180/260/300 magic damage
-Chuck (ie "Chuck") does 75/150/225/300 magic damage
-Enlarge (ie "Ult") adds 40 bonus attack damage at level 1
-Chuck does 15/30/45/60 bonus magic damage without Ult
-Chuck does 26.25/52.5/78.75/105 bonus magic damage with Ult
-Stun damage is doubled with perfect combo
-Assume Pebs does perfect combo (target is Chucked with full double stun)
-Pebs attacks once during the combo
-Damage Reduction = 0.06A/(1+.06A)
-Magic Armor = Am
-Physical Armor = Ap
-Since damage comparison is a direct comparison, base attack damage doesn't matter as it'll only get subtracted out once the equations are set equal to each other, so let's assume it's 0 without Ult and 40 with.

EQUATIONS:
Damage = Stun Damage + Chuck Damage + One Attack Damage
Damage from 4/4/0/0 Build = (280*2)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+(300+60)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+0
Damage from 3/4/0/1 Build = (220*2)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+(300+105)(1-.06Am/(1+.06Am))+40(1-.06Ap/(1+.06Ap))

GRAPH:
Total Damage vs Physical Armor
http://i.imgur.com/mYiz6.png

INCIDENTALS/OBSERVATIONS:
-According to the graphs, the 4/4/0/0 horizontal damage line is always above the 3/4/0/1 damage curve. An exception occurs at the 15.5 magic armor curve when physical armor is equal to 0, but the 3/4/0/1 curve only has a ~1 damage advantage over the 4/4/0/1 curve at this point anyway.
-Even though increasing magic armor brings the 2 damage curves together for a particular level of magic armor, the 4/4/0/0 always gives more total damage output.
-Maximizing Chuck gives you more sniping damage AND range for those cases where a running hero is out of stun reach.
-Leveling Stun does not increase stun duration.
-Learning Ult early gives you better damage for last hitting and general attacking as well as increased movement speed.

CONCLUSION:
Therefore, in general, a 4/4/0/0 build is better than a 3/4/0/1 build at level 8.

CREDITS:
ElementUser inspired this post by this thread:
http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=102574
...but he neglected armor factors. =)

Outdated stuff (archived in spoiler):

CALCULATION:
If you set the equations equal to each other you can calculate the "break-even" point. Rather than show you the manual solution to the polynomial, I just put them into an equation solver. You have to trust me that these are correct (they match the graph).
Magic Armor = 0 (Spellshards3) -> 2.38 Armor
Magic Armor = 5.5 (Normal) -> 8.67 Armor
Magic Armor = 10.5 (Mystic) -> 14.38 Armor
Magic Armor = 15.5 (Headdress) -> 20.10 Armor

This section is irrelevant now as the 2 curves don't intersect below 15.5 magic armor and above 0 armor.

[TheDude]

This is what i call a great explanation. Thanks, ill be sure to do that cast sequence... I was mistaken to think that Chuck->Stalagmites does more dmg.

[roarp]

alright that sounds interesting, i always thought chuck first is being better.

Anyways, the code are too much for me so in the end I have read the conclusion and brief explaination and start walking out and shot, NOW I KNOW PEBBLES PWN!:pebb::pebb::pebb::pebb:

[DeagleTColt]

though, might be unnecessary but it should be noted this does not mean you are better off to stalagmite from a distance, walk up and then chuck.

just in case someone only read the TL;DR

[tikal]

I was mistaken to think that Chuck->Stalagmites does more dmg.


Also, so this is incorrect?

Wow.. I've always thought + people told me that if you chuck then stun you deal double(or more damage) then what you would other way around?

[TurpinoS]

So, If i understand correctly, you could not do the combo perfectly, and it would still deal more damage then just stun + chuck ? BUT NOT as much as a perfect stunchuck ?

(as in 3 ticks of avalanche instead 4)

Could we also have the total damage, AFTER MAGIC reduction, with both stun and chuck maxed, without ult, with level 1, 2 and 3 ult.

THANKS

[nikoPSK]

Clears things up a bit, good work!

[ElementUser]

So, If i understand correctly, you could not do the combo perfectly, and it would still deal more damage then just stun + chuck ? BUT NOT as much as a perfect stunchuck ?

(as in 3 ticks of avalanche instead 4)

If you mean Chuck -> Stun does more damage than Stun->Chuck, no (in a non-perfect scenario), it never will. The best case scenario (which is a perfect one) means you'll do the same amount of damage at best, never more with Chuck->Stun.


Could we also have the total damage, AFTER MAGIC reduction, with both stun and chuck maxed, without ult, with level 1, 2 and 3 ult.No, these values are easily calculated. You could do it yourself (or ask someone else to) if you really want to know the values.

[TurpinoS]

If you mean Chuck -> Stun does more damage than Stun->Chuck, no (in a non-perfect scenario), it never will. The best case scenario (which is a perfect one) means you'll do the same amount of damage at best, never more with Chuck->Stun.

No, these values are easily calculated. You could do it yourself (or ask someone else to) if you really want to know the values.

My question was not directed towards Chuck -> Stun.

My point is, lets say for the sake of it being easy, that stun deals 300 dmg, and chuck deals 300 dmg.

So if you stun, and then later on chuck the hero, it would deal 600 dmg

Now, if you stun->chuck combo perfectly, it would deal 900 damage.

If you stun-chuck, but NOT perfectly (as in, you stun, wait a bit, then chuck). Will it deal a damage in between 600 and 900 or will it automatically deal 600 dmg.


As for the damage calculation, it was not directly towards you, was just an open question for anyone to do, its not necessary it was just out of curiosity..

Thanks

[ElementUser]

Depends on how many ticks of Stalagmites that get in before the unit is in the chucked State.

In your previous post, you assumed 3 ticks were applied when the unit was in chucked State & not the full 3 ticks. So it would do 300 + 300 + 60 (bonus damage to tossed unit) + 225 (this is 3*75 since only 3 ticks made it in Chucked state) = 885 damage as opposed to 960 damage from the perfect combo.

[TurpinoS]

Depends on how many ticks of Stalagmites that get in before the unit is in the chucked State.

In your previous post, you assumed 3 ticks were applied when the unit was in chucked State & not the full 3 ticks. So it would do 300 + 300 + 60 (bonus damage to tossed unit) + 225 (this is 3*75 since only 3 ticks made it in Chucked state) = 885 damage as opposed to 960 damage from the perfect combo.


Thanks, that was exactly my question, wasnt sure if it was actually possible to do damage which was in between.

[Bumblebees]

Has anyone taken the time to see which order allows more unavoidable auto-attacks?

I've been testing this in practice mode (and in game) and it seems that it is entirely possible to do more blink-in damage without actually doing the combo (stun->toss) 'correctly'.

I'd appreciate if someone else could test, but it appears that 'bare' at level 9+ does more damage than a stun->toss combo: attack (stop canceled), toss, attack mid-air, stun, attack, attack. Often you toss (again) a nearby unit at them before they are out of range as well.

[ElementUser]

It's really up to you whether you want that extra +75 magic damage or not in the end

Chuck-Stun + a hit leaves a Minotaur with ~71 HP

Stun-Chuck without an additional attack leaves a Minotaur with ~97 HP

Against heroes:

With Chuck-Stun, you can add a hit before, a hit mid-air/when they land and a last hit when they try to run away from you.

With Stun-Chuck, you have the same amount of hits if you do it right.

Just note that at level 9 your attack speed is low, though when you gain more attack speed Stun->Chuck will practically always be better than Chuck->Stun.

[DentistDrill]

TL; DR : ElementUser works far too hard :3

but well done very useful info :)

[Hippie]

Maybe this will finally put to rest everyone who still SWEARS it's chuck-->stun.

Thanks, Element.

[Tamachan]

Maybe this will finally put to rest everyone who still SWEARS it's chuck-->stun.

Thanks, Element.

It has been stalag- chuck since 0.8 or something(when they fixed his chuck to make it actually work). Anyone who ever thought it otherwise should uninstall.

[Bumblebees]

It's really up to you whether you want that extra +75 magic damage or not in the end

Chuck-Stun + a hit leaves a Minotaur with ~71 HP

Stun-Chuck without an additional attack leaves a Minotaur with ~97 HP

Against heroes:

With Chuck-Stun, you can add a hit before, a hit mid-air/when they land and a last hit when they try to run away from you.

With Stun-Chuck, you have the same amount of hits if you do it right. This assuming both get a hit mid-air of toss.

Just note that at level 9 your attack speed is low, though when you gain more attack speed Stun->Chuck will practically always be better than Chuck->Stun.

In my testing I was always able to get 2 hits off after a toss->stun, but only 1 after stun->toss.

Either way, I'm glad this thread exists. I get in arguments almost every game there's a pebbles with some 'tard insisting they should toss->stun "because the description says so."

[ElementUser]

Meh, if you animation cancel both methods I suppose you can get 1 more autoattack off with Chuck-Stun...but when I tested, I used an Accursed with 350 movespeed (he has Marchers) and my Pebbles has Marchers as well with level 1 Ult, granting him a total of 340 movespeed.

Btw when I tested on a moving target, I got 2 hits off stun-toss and 2 on toss-stun. But the animation canceling has to be pretty good in both scenarios. If I did some path blocking to Accursed, then I can get 3 off in Chuck-Stun

If I animation cancel and Pebbles had Marchers while Accursed didn't, then I can also get 3 hits off Chuck-Stun.

[Couchmonster]

Maybe they should just FIX the skill-description *grr*

[Bumblebees]

Meh, if you animation cancel both methods I suppose you can get 1 more autoattack off with Chuck-Stun...but when I tested, I used an Accursed with 350 movespeed (he has Marchers) and my Pebbles has Marchers as well with level 1 Ult, granting him a total of 340 movespeed.

Btw when I tested on a moving target, I got 2 hits off stun-toss and 2 on toss-stun. But the animation canceling has to be pretty good in both scenarios. If I did some path blocking to Accursed, then I can get 3 off in Chuck-Stun

If I animation cancel and Pebbles had Marchers while Accursed didn't, then I can also get 3 hits off Chuck-Stun.

Ok, then your results are the same as mine. Perhaps you should work on your stop canceling more ;) :arac:

[ElementUser]

Ok, then your results are the same as mine. Perhaps you should work on your stop canceling more ;) :arac:

Animation canceling is better since you move instead of just standing still. Just because you cancel your attack backswing doesn't mean you attack faster, it just means you get more time to move/do other actions while your attack is on cooldown.

Stop-cancel is much better for things like Pyromancer's Stun and such.

P.S. My animation cancel is fine

[n0ah_]

This is a bit illogical. I always thought it was the other way around because it simply doesn't make any sense that stalagmites are doing any damage to a chucked units. While the chuck unit is in the air he is far above the stalagmites on the ground below so since he isn't even on the stalagmites he should take no damage.

What was logical to me was that the increased impact force gotten from being launched into the air by chuck would make stalagmites hit harder.

Anyway I tried this out in practice mode and my combo did 600 damage with the logical combo and around 1000 with the stalagmites + chuck combo. Thanks for clearing this up.

[own_age]

Well for Chuck then stun, it's harder to miss. Stun isn't instant so if they're fast and move around heaps...

[PROc]

Well for Chuck then stun, it's harder to miss. Stun isn't instant so if they're fast and move around heaps...

The Idea is that you portal key ontop of the enemy then do the combo, you can't miss that.

[F1]

Element, someone posted awhile ago that getting ult at 6 gives you a higher early game combo dmg. C/D?

[P4lm]

Stun+Chuck = Instantkill

[Steffen]

It has been stalag- chuck since 0.8 or something(when they fixed his chuck to make it actually work). Anyone who ever thought it otherwise should uninstall.

I thought so far a long time, until I read in the forums that a perfect stun-chuck is way easier to perform then a perfect chuck-stun.
It said that you will more like loose a tick when chucking first.
2 ppl tested it in practice or sth.
since then, I've always been stun-chucking

STILL chuck-stun is easier and more natural imho.
just doing it the other way because it had been PROVEN less effective.

[ElementUser]

Element, someone posted awhile ago that getting ult at 6 gives you a higher early game combo dmg. C/D?

Level 3 Stalagmites, level 2 Chuck, level 1 Ult:

(260*2) + (150 + 53) = 723 damage

Level 3 Stalagmites, level 3 Chuck:

(260*2) + (225 + 45) = 790 damage

So no.

[Sentura]

wait, if there is a 0.2 second delay before hitting every 0.2 second with stalagmites, and chuck has exactly 1 second air time, wouldn't that give exactly enough time if you queue chuck -> stun so that you get every tick in; i.e. the full 900 (+ throw) damage?

[ElementUser]

I'll respond with read the thread more carefully. I made a timeline:


Chuck at t=0

Stalagmites cast at t=0
Stalagmites impact at t=0.2

Instance #1 impacts at t=0.2
Instance #2 impacts at t=0.45
Instance #3 impacts at t=0.70
Instance #4 impacts at t=1.05

Since Chuck's projectile lifetime is 1 second, there is a 0.05s grace delay in between the Chuck cast and the Stalagmites cast. This grace delay is lessened the further away the Stalagmites has to travel, where 60 units is the max distance it can travel.

[SuperStag]

Either Elementuser or the link in my sig.

[SnowToad]

This is not to mention its alway's best to use a stun first, and it has longer cast range than Chuck (for the person you want to throw) and if there's multiple units and you don't chuck your target the whole combo is failed, but if you stun first you can get right next to them to ensure the chuck

[pife55]

just watch chu play that pebbles against msi....i was amazed.

[BadaBing]

In my testing I was always able to get 2 hits off after a toss->stun, but only 1 after stun->toss.

I also heard this, and that the best combo depends on Pebbles attack speed (e.g. if he gets deamonic breastplate, he will be able to get an extra attack off).

[Rinsaku]

E.U you are my favorite <3

[pedobearpig]

mystery unraveled? what mystery. the most effective combo is stun/chuck. it has been ever since the old days of DotA. only bads think it's the other way around.

[ElementUser]

mystery unraveled? what mystery. the most effective combo is stun/chuck. it has been ever since the old days of DotA. only bads think it's the other way around.

For the non-believers.

[CrazyAce]

This thread has been tinyurl'd.

tinyurl.com/pebbles-combo (http://tinyurl.com/pebbles-combo)

[Good_Apollo]

I'm necroing this because I've just run through probably like 12 games in the past 2 weeks that have people vehemently push that toss/stun is better and that I'm the retard.

Please input a tooltip or a hint with this info, or hell, even an entire announcement at the start of the game.

[ElementUser]

Bumping a thread that's 2 days old isn't considered necroing.

Bumping a thread that's 3+ months old is.

[Good_Apollo]

Bumping a thread that's 2 days old isn't considered necroing.

Bumping a thread that's 3+ months old is.Huh, thought this thread was older.

Regardless, do it already so we can be done with these idiots. No other skill in the game has so much ignorance behind it.

[Habile]

Huh, thought this thread was older.

Regardless, do it already so we can be done with these idiots. No other skill in the game has so much ignorance behind it.

I wouldn't say it's that bad. . . it's just a timing issue. It's still possible for chuck->stun to do maximum damage.

I've seen worse come up because of Take Cover. People insisting that some spells such as Blast of Lightning or Money Shot didn't have mini-stuns, or even that mini-stuns didn't count as "full" stuns and were still blocked by Take Cover.

75 damage possibly lost isn't that big of a deal. I've seen a lot of players use them completely separately to an even greater effect.

[MisiuPO]

Hi!
I read this whole post.
And I went to the practice mode, spawned :elec: and used my:pebb: to check the combos.
I don't know how, but stalagmites -> chuck did less damage than chuck -> stalagmites, and it says here it is not true.
What can be causing this problem?

[ElementUser]

You're not doing it fast enough. Also you did Chuck-Stalag faster than Stalag-Chuck, whether you consciously knew or not.

[Megaman8bit]

yep I'm one of those nubs who didn't know the difference i just played a match where i was trying to toss then stun...::HUGE SIGH:: and i played DOTA from 4.something and HON from beta but never looked into it but this combo only works if you attack animation cancel right? if you were to land a stun and not reach them in time to land an attack or chuck then attack it wouldnt work as well right? but with PK it should go off w/o a hitch no?

[Shyne]

well...i always buy portal key...and chuck - stun...(near the enemy) so no travel time for stalags. + im really fast..

[Stokkolm]

Both ways are ok.

Stalagmite + Chuck does SLIGHTLY more damage but can be dodged, especially by blinkers.

[ElementUser]

well...i always buy portal key...and chuck - stun...(near the enemy) so no travel time for stalags. + im really fast..

Not fast enough to break the 0.05s grace time to get max damage. Only way to do this is to do it at at HIGHEST 25% gamespeed (it is difficult to reproduce 100% of the time even at 10% or 1% gamespeed).


Both ways are ok.

Stalagmite + Chuck does SLIGHTLY more damage but can be dodged, especially by blinkers.

I put a disclaimer at the top of my thread you know. I never said anything about how reliable each method is, but if you're fast enough on your Stalagmite-Chuck you'll get more for less effort anyway.

[Technoshaman]

The OP should be required reading for anyone to be able to unlock playing Pebbles.

[Damage]

The OP should be required reading for anyone to be able to unlock playing Pebbles.

This.

I've been looking everywhere for the reasoning behind the combo, thanks Elemental.

Sorry for bumping, just wanted Elemental to know he's awesome.

[Bumble]

ElementUser:
As far as I understand, it's possible to do double stalagmite dmg to the unit you chuck, if you time the stun right. The time to stun depends on the travelspeed of the chuck, or vise versa.
If I wanna do double dmg to the chucked unit, in the same time as I stun a second target, should I then stun, wait a very short time, and then chuck, due to the time it takes for stun to travel, or does the chucking time take longer, the further away you chuck the unit, so to combo stun+double dmg to chucked unit, I should change the order and chuck before stun?

[ElementUser]

What are you asking?

Your run-on-sentence is too long for me to get an explicit question out of that ~.~

[Bumble]

Forsaken Archer



&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pebbles Bombardier

(If you're in doubt about the illustation above, let's say that Bombardier and I stand on the part just a little out of tower range on legion side, Forsaken Archer stands in the lake, not in the middle but like 200 units to the side of top rune)

I wanna stun Forsaken Archer in the same combo as I chuck and do double stalagmite dmg to Bombardier. Should I stun, wait a short while and then chuck bombardier. Or should I due to longer chucktime (I could rephrase the question to wether or not the full chuck takes longer, if you chuck to a place not just beside you?) since the target point aint just beside me, chuck first and stun right after?

[ElementUser]

If they're that far away you can't stun both heroes.

[Bumble]

Statement: It is possible to make stalagmite do double dmg, as long as the combo is timed right - Correct?

If Forsaken Archer is close enough to you, so you can stun the ground he stands on AND chuck a unit to him, it should as I see it, be possible to stun the ground, chuck Bombardier to him, make both stunned and take dmg from chuck, and Bombardier taking double stalagmite damage.
My question is how the combo goes?
Does the time a unit is in air by chuck change wether you chuck him straight up in the air, or towards another location? If the chuck takes the same time, you should stun Forsaken Archer, wait a very short while, then chuck Bombardier to the location of Forsaken Archer, and as a result you got 'em both stunned, taking dmg from chuck, and Bombardier even took double stalagmite dmg.

[ElementUser]

Oh, now I see what you're saying.

No it doesn't matter (you should still try to Chuck as quickly as possible); as long as the Chucked unit keeps on getting hit by Stalagmites, you'll get the double damage effect.

It's just that if the unit is far away from the unit, he might:

A) Not get hit by all 4 instances of Stalagmites
B) Not be in the chucked state for long enough while he's getting hit by Stalagmites

[Bumble]

Ok, one last thing then.
You say I should try to chuck as fast as possible, to get the best effect from the combo. The problem is to chuck fast enough.
This means that there will be a bigger chance for my stalagmite to do 4*extra dmg, if i stun a target away with a unit i can chuck to (Teammate Night Hound for an example), instead of comboing right beside me, due to the traveltime of stalagmite ability, earlier mentioned in this thread. - "Note that Stalagmites does have a tiny bit of travel time"
I do realise this needs perfect timing, else he might only be hit by 1-3 of the 4 stalagmites.
Correct?

Ty in advance.

[ElementUser]

It works best only if the units are close enough together. Otherwise I wouldn't see a point in stunning 1 unit and tossing another unit into the Stalagmites.

So only do this if the units are close enough together

[davydavidoff]

The only question I have, and where the confusion comes from I think, is the skill descriptions, about taking more dmg from stalagmites if they were chucked first.

[ElementUser]

Red text is right.

The white text before it simply states that it will deal more damage if they are in the Chuck state while the Stalagmites impact.

NOWHERE does it explicitly say Chucking first grants more damage. I'll even post the strings:


Units affected by Chuck take double the damage.
Casting in the sequence Stalagmites -> Chuck will yield the highest potential combo damage.

People just need to learn to read.

[TheSeXpeRT]

My head hurts...

So what your saying is I shouldn't get PK on Magebane?

[Dragnmn]

No, what we're saying is that you should. Get two in fact.

[TheSeXpeRT]

Thanks for clearing that whole thing up, I don't understand all that mumbo jumbo.

[ElementUser]

He was trolling...

[Dragnmn]

I figured obvious question required an obvious reply.

[TheSeXpeRT]

There's a difference between trolling and just having a little fun.

[Magnett]

Using "SmartCasting (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12891683)" mod you can deal the max dmg possible!

Stay "near" ur enemy and use "Stalagmites+Chuck"...

ElementUser is right this combo is most effective than Chuck+Stalagmites.

Other detail, you need to use both skills Stalagmites+Chuck "SOOOOOOOOOOO FAST".

If you wait 0,5s, you fail...


SmartCasting (http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?p=12891683) FTW :Portalkey: :pebb:

I tried to make a movie, but i dont know how can "zoom in" to show the combo in progress + the skill bar =/

[Zelfana]

Stalagmites tooltip in-game says that Stalagmites->Chuck is better for potential damage now, did you add it Element? :D

[ElementUser]

You're like 15 patches late

[Zelfana]

Tells you how much people read the tooltips, eh?

[Mevorra_II]

Well to continuously keep this thread alive, I have a question about specific scenarios as pebbles:

When playing pebbles Stalagmites->Chuck is the best combo if you target "yourself" all the time, if you get my drift. PK in, stun and chuck and then beat the **** out of your victim.
BUT!
Many of your kills will require the assistance of your teammates, so you want to pull off the combo AND toss your enemy into your teammates. My question is, when a hero is chucked TO ANOTHER POSITION, where do the stalagmites hit him?

Do I want to cast stalagmites, then chuck my enemy away to my team, or do I want to chuck him to my team and then stun his landing position?
Due to not knowing what's the best move here I always just PK in, chuck away and then stalagmite where my enemy will land. Is this a bannable offence?
Nah, but is it the best choice?

Also, :pebb:+:deme: <3

[ElementUser]

Anywhere as long as it's within the Stalagmites AoE damage.

If you Chuck him out of that AoE then you don't receive the Stalagmites damage anymore (and thus no bonus Chuck-Stalagmite damage) for obvious reasons.

[Ggrofl]

Tossing ppl into tower and then doing your stun most of the time deals more dmg x)

[Mevorra_II]

Anywhere as long as it's within the Stalagmites AoE damage.

If you Chuck him out of that AoE then you don't receive the Stalagmites damage anymore (and thus no bonus Chuck-Stalagmite damage) for obvious reasons.

So if I'm going to chuck away my enemies to another location and still want the stun combo damage I need to target the location I'm tossing towards? Does a mid-air hero get damaged by stalagmites in its ACTUAL location, starting location or target location?

I didn't quite understand your answer.

[FreiBierFred]

So if I'm going to chuck away my enemies to another location and still want the stun combo damage I need to target the location I'm tossing towards? Does a mid-air hero get damaged by stalagmites in its ACTUAL location, starting location or target location?

I didn't quite understand your answer.

Obviously at his actual location. When hes in mid-air inside the Stalagmites AOE he receives damage. If hes thrown outside of Stalagmites they won't damage him anymore.

[ElementUser]

If the target is outside of the Stalagmites AoE then it won't take damage from Stalagmites or any other bonus damage you would normally get from it

[Mevorra_II]

I see. Thanks

[MacroHard]

If you're going to move my post, can you at least help it get some visibility? Hardly anyone reads page 5 of mechanics discussions.

Perhaps link here where you second post says "Also does not take damage reductions into account"?

Thanks! =)

[Vahn]

Look at it this way, as mentioned in your post, it's aimed at ElementUser and I'm about 99% sure he reads every single post made in mechanics.

[Purple`]

Chuck = targeted, longer ranged nuke. L2k:d

[sdk]

It constantly amazes me how many people can STILL think chuck->stalagmites deals more damage.

[Keabard]

Thanks, i'm a better :pebb: now.

[ElementUser]

I moved Macrohard's Post to Post#3

[Cshoulder]

It makes me sad when I get yelled at for reading the forums and trying to help people understand stun then chuck. I will admit that when I first read the tooltip in beta I thought chuck first was superior. At this point, I wish the tooltips would be updated to simply tell people, "stun first then chuck using a pk" so i don't have to deal with people doing it the wrong way.

[Vahn]

The tooltip does say staligmites first. Might only be in the detailed tooltip though.

[jasonx]

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj252/suneth5000/shot001.png

it says units affected by chuck take double damage and it also says staligmites -> chuck yeilds the maximum damage thats confusing

[MacroHard]

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj252/suneth5000/shot001.png

it says units affected by chuck take double damage and it also says staligmites -> chuck yeilds the maximum damage thats confusing

Its not confusing when you realize that stalagmites does it's damage over a 1s duration, starting at 0.2s, and not all up front. By chucking first the target lands before stalagmites finishes, which is why you lose out on some combo damage.

Perhaps the tool tip should say...
Deals 4 instances of 25/45/65/75 Magic Damage (100/180/260/300 total) over 1 second and stuns each target in radius for 2 seconds

instead of...
Deals 100/180/260/300 Magic Damage and stuns each target in radius for 2 seconds

[ElementUser]

Tooltips are never 100% accurate.

[Vahn]

New, Super Detailed Tooltips: every bit of information you could want on the skill!

[ElementUser]

No.

That's what these subforums are for.

[Vahn]

I can always dream :p

[YawningAngel]

While we're on the subject, can we fix tooltips for things like Stampede and Illusive Dash that don't even tell you how much damage the ability does?

[ElementUser]

3-4-0-1 is no longer the optimal build (IIRC), will verify with MacroHard before updating thread. Decision based on this: http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?435263

[ElementUser]

Updated, the optimal build is 4-4-0-0 by level 8 as of v2.6.10. I updated the graph to support this.